I'd guess that OLY lifters squat high bar -atg because of the ROM .. also i belive they pull more weigh with their body being more upright then powerlifters...then again they cant pull in a high-bar squat position so i dont kno!
High squats aren't as good for pulling off the floor but they're better for the front squat part of the clean. For pulling off the floor deadlifts and power cleans are better than low squats anyways, so low squats aren't of much use for oly lifting.
Also olympic lifting relies on explosiveness and stretch reflex which is typical of a high squat but not of a low squat, which is better for maximal (slow) strength.
Plus olympic lifts are done on heeled shoes, which don't agree with low squats.
(continued) my olympic lifts keep improving moving me closer to my goal of 400 on C&J and 300 on snatch.So my opinion High bar is a great exercise but if you are front squatting heavy and doing Snatch balance/overhead squats, then Low bar squat could be a great tool in your training to help you reach your goals.
(continued)because exactly as Rip said Squat is a exercise used to increase you strength for the other lifts, my Front squat went from 400 to 450 because my quads were not being stressed around the knee flexors as much and my pulling strength increased as well. Before I started getting into olympic weightlifting I could pull 650 after going a pure olympic lifting program my pulling strength decreased but now mixing in low bar squats and clean grip deadlifts my overall strength is much stronger.
I have completed in olympic weightlifting, I am not a world class lifter but have done 385 on Clean and Jerk and 275 on snatch. I have done both High Bar and Low Bar. At first I did do high bar but what I found from my own personal experiences is that doing High Bar, Front Squats, Snatch Balances/Overhead Squat, Snatch, and Cleans is a lot on the quads if you are training hard. So I switched to low bar and my numbers actually went up on Clean and Jerk and Snatch
@ Mattormat1 I agree. And not only that, the high bar squat trains those muscles, that from the bottom of an Olympic lift, drives that weight up. The pull.....sure it stresses the back and is important and synonymous with all the Olympic lifts......but the bottom of that lift, and the catch of the clean or the snatch is really where all that driving and moving of weight happens! This guy has great points too... but the high bar back squat DEFinitely has its purpose with the olympic lifts when i
Olympic lifters should only do Front Squats. Simulates the Olympic lifts. Tom Platz did "high bar" squats because it emphasizes the quads (as long as you can stay upright with the upper body).
There is no controversy. Everyone who teaches World Class Olympic Lifters advocates the High Bar Squat and Rippetoe who doesn't teach World Class Olympic Lifters advocates a Low Bar Squat. This guy also teaches people to look at the ground when squatting. Why High Bar? Because it allows ATG squatting, which is essential for Olympic Lifts.
@UltimateYEC So that's your argument. "Because somebody named Boris wants you to do HB squats, that's enough of an excuse? No, I'm sorry, it's not. I need your reasoning."
"A crime persevered in a thousand centuries ceases to be a crime, and becomes a virtue. This is the law of custom, and custom supersedes all other forms of law" - Mark Twain
@kariido1 Who the Fuck's Boris. That's a pathetic attempt at a Strawman. How about you meet your own burden of proof. A bigot with a big mouth who calls people "pussies" for disagreeing with him says do low bar Squats. I'll take my advice from the experts thanks.
Even though the inclination of the trunk of the first pull of Olympic lifts and the bottom position of a low-bar squat look similar, both are totally different. They cannot be similar to each other. It would be much more persuasive if he suggested a front squat over a high-bar squat to Olympic lifters because of an identical movement after catching a bar in a clean when he puts emphasis on a direct application or specificity.
Yes.. the fact that he pulls badly surely must mean his information SUCKS.. I mean he is only one of the most known coaches.. including writer of one of the best strenght books. Could it be that his knee problems are the reason he is playing it safe?
"Do as I say, not as I do"
Do you always do things the right way? Do you always progress slowly, and steadily for maximum results.. always eating the right food? NO.. but you advocate those things?
The reason Rip teaches a low bar squat is because it relieves stress on the lower back and aligns the path of the bar with the middle of the foot. Rip also teaches that the clean and snatch should both start with the bar over the mid-foot and that the bar should travel in a straight path. He is simply trying to increase the carry over from squat to the Olympic lifts.
Coach Broz coaches the high bar squat, therefore it must be the right way ! If you don't know Coach Broz, look up Pat Mendez - If you don't already know this guy, your comment should be null and void !
I think an Olympic weight lifter prefers high bar squats because we can squat lower in a high bar squat, bending deeper at the knees - a similiar position to the bottom of an Olympic lift.
I've seen it more beneficial to high bar squat in training and low bar squat near and when you max out. As far as gaining power for your sport or your lift I find atg squats better because it stretches your ass/legs out a lot more IMO. I squatted low bar for a while. Found a drastic increase in my deadlift. However, towards the end of my training I found my flexibility a major issue in my ankles. I finally found the sweet spot in my high bar squat when I itch my ass with the floor. Amazing :)
I like it how many commenter don't watch the full video. Mark gives his reasons for preferring the low bar squat and simply asks for the high bar reasons. Most people on here opposed to his view simply restate what mark says at the end; "Olympic weight lifters do it so it must be good">>logical fallacy much?
i m new to the game but i think i know why olympic lifters should do high bar
when u snatch with a heavy weight u dont just get the bar over ur head
u do that WHILE U SQUAT UNDER THE BAR AND THEN U GET UP.THE MOVEMENT U GET AT THE BOTTOM IS A FULL SQUAT!SO TO RAISE URSELF U NEED A HELL OF A STRONG BUT N FLEXIBILIT WHICH A LOW BAR PARALLEL SQUAT WOULD NEVER GIVE.THATS WHY IT IS
This guy is smart but oIympic weightIifters know what there doing ive done high bar and Iow bar and i feeI that high bar is a more expIosive and more range of motion Iift. They both work your hips high bar gives everything posterior chain and the front of your body stregth if they do Iow bar they wiII Iack the front squat if you get your high bar squat up your front squat goes up if you get your Iow bar squat it wont. High bar gives a good carry over to any movment high bar is the way to go.
If you actually use your brain you'll note the contradiction Ripptoe is giving. Funny reading the comments on this page as to who's a free thinker and who's a sheep and doesn't question authority.
Secondly the onus is on Ripptoe to produce an individual who can lift huge numbers like a 200+ clean n jerk using the low bar squat to help get their. Why would Olympic coaches be rqeuired to defend their methods LOL!!!! When he cant coach his was out of a paper bag!!!!
If you actually use your brain you'll note the contradiction Ripptoe is giving. Funny reading the comments on this page as to who's a free thinker and who's a sheep and doesn't question authority.
Secondly the onus is on Ripptoe to produce an individual who can lift huge numbers like a 200+ clean n jerk using the low bar squat to help get their. Why would Olympic coaches be rqeuired to defend their methods LOL!!!! When he cant coach his was out of a paper bag!!!!
If you actually use your brain you'll note the contradiction Ripptoe is giving. Funny reading the comments on this page as to who's a free thinker and who's a sheep and doesn't question authority.
Secondly the onus is on Ripptoe to produce an individual who can lift huge numbers like a 200+ clean n jerk using the low bar squat to help get their. Why would Olympic coaches be rqeuired to defend their methods LOL!!!! When he cant coach his was out of a paper bag!!!!
I started with low bar squats because of Mark Riptoe's book and the Stronglifts website. It has always felt award for me. Time to try out the High Bar squat which is were I should have started because I read it is easier to go from high bar to low bar and HB trains a larger range of motion, also Olympic is way cooler than power lifting style.
I have no idea if this point has been made, but what I noticed is that a HBBS resembles the overhead squat, at the end of the snatch. The bar in the hands is directly over where the bar would be in the HBBS. I think the problem wouldn't be the pulling, but the squatting up with the bar overhead. The same reason the FS is trained, to get out of a heavy clean with greater ease.
Well, maybe I misunderstood what he was saying but he does really claim that Low Bar SQ puts LESS shear forces on the spine...
I mean, I dont know a whole lot about biomechanics but I think he got that one mixed up because obviously the spinal erectors have to work quite a bit to keep the upper body in a straight line
@q7w8e9r4t5z6 as he said, the length of the lever arm. Mere physics. The farther out you put the weight, the more force the spine will have to compensate for. The same reason why you can hold 50lbs easier when you hold it close to you. Hold your arm out straight and hold it, now feel how harder your back has to work to hold it out straight. If the weight could sit comfortably in the exact middle of your back, wouldn't it be easier to squat? yes.
@andrewishanukaai1 Front squat is for cleans and ONLY cleans. If you haven't completely read my post, the high bar back squat resembles the overhead squat from the snatch, also you can't 'bounce' from the bottom in low bar squats but you can bounce from the ATG bottom in high bar squats. and bouncing from the bottom is very important in weightlifting! but the stress on low back/spine part is something i agree with.
@Moshe1010 Yes, I am in shape...otherwise I have no right to make my statement. I am 42yrs old, 5'-9", 215lbs, squat & dead 450x8, bench 315x10 AND maintain 12% bodyfat. I am also a 3rd Dan Black Belt in Kyokushin (full contact, bare-knuckle) Karate with 29yrs experience & teaching it the past 20yrs. I use weight lifting as cross training for the Karate. I am aware of Rips background but there's no reason to be fat just because someone powerlifts. It's about health & fitness as well as strength.
@Moshe1010 I saw that. I was thinking that with the way that he rounded his back at the bottom,t he probably didn't get out of bed for a week. By all accounts Riptoe was a pretty heavy steroid user when he was younger. He is just living of the residuals of that.
I disagree. I think those were really good looking squats, especially considering he's in his 50s who's squatting way more than 90% of men's 1RM, that's not bad at all.
Hahahahaha. While Rippetoe might not be in the shape he used to be, when he was lifting he was stronger than you will EVER be and you bet your ass he knows more about lifting as well.
Have you written a book that is widely accepted and followed throughout the powerlifting and bodybuilding communities? No? Then shut the fuck up.
@Ragedhard 1) I am 42 now & past my prime as well, so I'm not lifting as much as I used to either. 2) I am not focused just on strength, I use weights as a cross training method for Kyokushin (full contact bare knuckle karate which I've been doing for 30yrs now), Rippetoe trains for strength only, so he should be stronger anyway. 3)The reason he wrote a book is for morons like you who can't think for themselves & figure it out on your own so you run out & buy his book & you think he's great.
Ok . So here's the reason. You can't go ATG with low-bar back squats. So to build strength for the olympic lifts we need ATG squats coz in snatch and the clean we HAVE to squat ATG and that can be acheived with high bar squats and NOT with low-bar squats.
Plus at the bottom of the snatch the back angle is more like that of a high bar squat .
@TonganMammoth and if we took high bar back squats out completely it would make more sense to add in more front squats and pulls than to add low bar back squat.
@TonganMammoth Whats with the scapula fetish? Fact is low bar forces you to be too bent over to have any similarity with the oly lifts. I don't know what snatch videos you watched, but what I saw was an upright back angle similar to the high bar. Why back squat over front squat? less upper back fatigue and more weight. Sure you can use more weight using low bar, but when you switch to low bar you dont bounce the same and your back is bent over completely unlike the oly lifts.
@TonganMammoth So high bar is bad because overhead is closer to snatch recovery, but low bar is good cause its similar to pull despite pulls you know being the exact same as a pull. Pulling is the easiest part of the lift anyway, most can easily pull more than they can recover with. So why squat in a way that will help your pull when what you need is recovery? You can't overhead squat cause your shoulders are too tired from doing snatches, cont..
@NoWelders front squats not gonna be very fun because your upper back is tired from all those cleans. So your left with legs that still have some gas in them, so you backsquat. Now will you high bar or low bar? Low bar might help your pull but you already can pull 20kg more than you can stand up with. High bar makes most sense since you need to be able to stand up with more weight.
@TonganMammoth The angle of your back is the same in a high bar back squat and the catch position of a snatch. In a front squat the back is more upright. Overhead squatting is limited in the amount of weight you can use. What rip is saying really makes no sense. If you dont need to high bar squat because you can front squat then why lowbar squat to strengthen your pull when you could just...do pulls.
i think the high bar is better for OL lifters. i doubt any world class OL lifter does low bar squat. OL squatters go atg and are more flexible. for those with long torsos or less flexible i think lowbar is better but you cant go atg in lowbar imo. watch the guys from "average joes gym" vids. the squat mendes does is the definition of OL squat.
What an idiot. Never compete in olympic weightlifting in his life. The purpose of full back squat in oly weightlifting is to develop explosive power through glutes and hamstrings. That's why we squat ass to grass. with straight upper body. Powerlifting squat is useles movement fo rnonflexible people.
good vid depends on your goals Low Bar squats should only really be used if you are prepping or competing for powerlifting specifically to have a shorter ROM and higher weight the goal. High bar squats are for oly lifters and athletes because it allows development for functional strength and flexibility, the larger ROM. It is also safer because you can not use as much weight ego is left at the door, or you don't worry about making the lift either you got it or drop it "no, it was high!" bullshit
I prefer high bar squatting IMMENSELY. I actually find there's less stress on my lower back, my knees are 'better behaved,' and more importantly, it just feels so much more natural. It all comes down to personal preference.
@CelticAndProud I just switched to high bar squats today and based on my experience I wholeheartedly agree with you. Being a person with long legs, low bar squats were difficult to stay upright with, but high bar was the cure.
Operating off of Rippetoe’s premise, and not considering the essential hip swing (kinetic energy) energy Oly lifters develop from the hips swinging in the radial path to initiate the upward pulling movement (centroid changes and upward inertia develops) of either the snatch or C&J of an Oly lifter, I might be inclined to go with Rippetoe’s premise. Operating off his premise a good mornings/front squats regime would be a far better training regime than using a low bar/front squats regime.
In using the low bar squat the weight is lower on the back (distance in shortens requiring greater input force from lower back muscles) so the muscles of the back must work harder, with less hip joint rotation (unless a narrow stance is used and then mechanical advantage diminishes).
It is, and will always continue to be, an issue of mechanics (Force in x Distance in = Force out x Distance out), and relative to desired training outcomes. With an Oly squat the weight is high on the shoulders, located at the end (top) of the lever arm in a complex, at least 3 lever, compound machine. The lower back must arch to help the weight stay over center mass (centroid = belly button) to allow the hip joint rotation that is not so essential to a low bar squat.
John Broz who is training American athletes in Olympic lifting said it like this when asked if he always has his lifters do high bar squats, " Always. Because you travel more distance. More distance = more work. why be lazy when you are trying to get strong? You are only cheating yourself."
How is there a controversy in Olympic weightlifting? Top Olympic lifters and trainers advocate high bar squats. Riptoe is not a top Olympic lifter or trainer. Riptoe's reason for using a low bar squat is that it simulates a pull. Maybe? Why not just do the movement and pull? I doubt that any Olympic coach would be against a low-bar squat because it never hurts to switch it up. As a matter of credibility, has Riptoe trained a person into the Olympics? Likely, Riptoe is wrong.
@jason44231 Another person doing what he just mentioned. Complaining yet not offering a reason for the high bar. So what's your reason for high bar squats?
@TheFitnessTutor The point is that he isn't supporting his case at all nor does he possess the petigree to speak from authority on Olympic lifting and he contradicts himself while he is talking. For example, Is the high bar squat recommended by Olympic lifters or is it a "controversy." Minimize back strain by doing something that increases back strain? Listen to what he is saying. He is giving apparently scientific or educated explanations, but the are riddled with contradiction an error.
@jason44231 Great points and observations. Good to see another person such as you being able to see through Rippetoe's double talk & contradiction. He uses the same methods as a cult leader by sounding knowledgeable & enlightened while speaking to the uniformed, so they buy his explanations without question. And what is the result of this... a goofy movement like CrossFit & the like. Just like the Bosu ball fad of the late 90's & early 2000's.
@TheFitnessTutor I had already said as much in my other two posts that I placed her but they were deleted. I will tell you why. I crushed our hero's arguments.
@jason44231 "Riptoe's reason for using the low bar...maybe?" The reasoning behind that statement is based on the fact that the geometries between the Olympic pulling lifts are more similar to that of the low bar squat - and the only reason why an Olympic lifter would do a squat in the first place would be to help lift more weight during his Olympic lifts. Therefore, the low bar squat is a more efficient exercise to transfer strength gains from back squatting to a pulling exercise.
100% agree. although elite weightlifter dont have troubles for pull the bar and getting under the bar, the hard part is stand up for jerk, so his argument maybe is right but is useless. In other wise high bar deep squat simulates the lower position in snatch so is much more effective and thats why coaches use it
ill be trying low bar squats tomorrow. I never even knew there were different places to put it on your shoulders! I thought high bar vs low bar was depenendent on how deep you go!
I personally agree in some ways, I prioritize front and high bar squats but I do incorperate low bar squats which does supprisngly help my pulls + is a little variation so fair play to this....
I have a mate who can low bar squat at least 20% more weight than I can, and yet, I can high bar squat 20% more than he can. I know that this isbecause I practice high bar squats more than he does. This tells me that his muscles and the neurologiocal pathway for for the low bar squats does NOT help his high bar squats. So I think that the reason for an Olympic Lifter to High Bar Squat is to develop the power in the deep knee bend during the snatch and the front squat during C &J.
@Rustybarbell it wouldnt be related to leg strength but to confort holding the bar in a certain way. practing low bar squats is safer when going ATG as it reduces the torque exerted on the back.
The front squat develops power for the deep knee bend because the bar is in the same position (racked on the shoulders)and your torso is more upright. I think Ripptoes reasoning is, if you use the Low bar squat you shift the emphasis to the posterior chain which needs to be strong to get the bar off the floor, and the front squat will allow you to buid strength for the knee bend, that way you get more posterior chain strength than if you did high bar squats.
@SGTcrackey666 He forgets about weightlifting shoes. They reduce the ROM for your hamstrings allowing you to have a more upright posture which removes stress from your lower back. The rest is as they say, you can squat more weight with the bar on your traps than on your delts which stimulates the fibres more.
Is his argument only limited to Olympic lifters? What about just general strength training? I didn't understand what he was saying around 4:20, is he saying lower back squat is better for both olympic lifting AND general strength training, or just the former?
as much as i respect mark rippetoe and his teaching in regards to powerlifting, he is not an expert on olympic style lifting by any means. with a low bar back squat, you have a hip break rather than a knee break for the descent. low bar squats are almost always done with a wide stance and stop at parallel. you are also not as upright during the squat as with the high bar. all of this translates to the clean and snatch, ie narrow stance, knee break, upright position, ass to grass.
@vjohn82 Dictionary(oxford) definition of ad hominem - (of an argument or reaction) arising from or appealing to the emotions and not reason or logic. Correct me if i am wrong but Rip says "I can't get anybody tell me why not" @4:42 and "What the hell's the reason?" @4:54 and "I need your reasoning" @5:06 and "So here's my reason and i'd like somebody else's but nobody will tell me" @5:09. I am not an expert at logical fallacies but educate me why its not ad hominem and why he is a moron?
@TheMad106 Ad Hominem is not an appeal to emotion, that's a separate logical fallacy. Ad Hominem is an argument against the person making a claim. "It describes an argument based on the failings of an adversary rather than on the merits of the case."
Even so, your own definition still does not apply as the original argument Mark was referring to were not based upon emotion.
@TheMad106 Rip should accuse the high-bar advocates of the "appeal to authority" fallacy. It's not really an ad hominem fallacy, but you can see the relationship: in both cases you judge an argument not on its merits, but on personal characteristics. In other words I think Rip is wrong, but not importantly wrong.
OTOH, if the high-bar advocate says, "I don't need to listen to your argument Rip, 'cause you're not an Olympic coach," then that's ad hominem. But that's not how he tells the story.
@schnamtaro There are a lot of holes in his argument in terms of why a low bar squat would be better than a high bar squat. All he has really done is put forth a hypothesis that needs to be tested. He has not provided any evidence. His hypothesis has a few flaws the first being that he recommends the low bar squat because it conforms to the geometry of the pull but at the same time eliminates back stress caused by a high bar squat. This makes no sense.
@jason44231 I was addressing only the correctness of his fallacy-identification, not his overall argument. I agree with you about evidence. That said, I don't hear him claiming that low-bar eliminates back strain, only that it minimizes it relative to high-bar. (See 1:35.) Of course whether that's true or not is a separate issue.
At 4:49 - "Well! The best Olympic weight lifting coaches in the world use the high bar squat and there must be a reason!".. "What the hell is the reason? That's an ad-hominen arguement!" ---> I literally LOL'd at this part! It was epic lol
this is exactly what i think! i am always saying low bar is better even for Olympic lifters. the posterior chain usage and body position is much better for jumping etc.
would this guy recommend using olympic shoes for low bar? that is my main problem at the moment. trying to decide weather to take of my weightlifting shoes when i back squat!
@bobbyatopk I have the same problem when deciding to wear my Oly shoes for Low bar squats. I feel like I squat better Low bar without the shoes. The shoes take the hips out of it, I feel. What did you end up deciding to do since this post?
Do you have any suggestions on how to strengthen the upper back for a person who high bar back squats? I get some thoracic rounding during heavy squats and it's hindering my squats.
@Chiefontheditty Had the same issue for a while. Military press and front squats got job done for me. I suppose rowing would've have helped as well had I done it.
@educheny It seems to me what matters most is that the bar travels as straight as possible. I see no reason why Oly squats can't do that as well as low bar.
Rip has this obsession with the scapula. Well if the scapula are what matters most, shouldn't we be doing behind the back military presses instead?
the logical fallacy that he mentions is wrong. People are using the "appeal to authority" fallacy, not ad hominem. Ad Hominem is where you are insulting someone.
IF he wants Olympic lifters to stop ATG backsquat with a high bar, then he should produce an Olympic Lifter that MEDALS in the Olympics or World Championships....
because that's an easy fucking thing to do, especially in America where all the talent is taken by football, baseball, basketball, hocket etc., right?
no because that is a damn hard thing to do. And because the quality of a coach is measured by the athletes they produce. Rippeote gets noobs strong fast, and that it awesome. But his expertise in OlyW is severely lacking, yet he wants to change how OlyLifters across the globe squat.
@1stNeoSpartan Here's what I don't understand. I don't know why he thinks low bar is easier on your back, when your back is much more vertical in an Oly squat.
At the very least, that should compensate for the bar being farther away from the lower back.
I feel like I'm doing a good morning when I low bar squat.
@LexPhilogus I think in theory it's better because the lever ar is shorter, but in reality you have to compensate the bar sliding down your back by leaning forwards, which puts the back at risk (unless you have huge posterior delts that hold the bar).
exactly. Also, a high bar squat keeps your back automatically tightened throughout the squat because your shoulder blades are closer together, which in turn reduces injury.
@FriedSTickMan, that is incorrect, Myself using the low bar squat, I can easily go below parallel. It depends on the kind of stance you use, slightly narrower than shoulder width combined with GOOD hip and hamstring flexibility you can easily go ATG. It depends on the individual using the low-bar squat, not the squat itself.
trance, he's not arguing for " low bar squats that go only to parallel." He specifically encourages them for PC strength, which necessitates going below parallel. I think they're a great idea in theory to do at least once a week with a belt b/c of the extra weight, but I've just never trained with anyone who can flawlessly alternate low bar squats and O lifts.
As an aside, there's a lot of confusion with high vs. low bar and olympic vs. athletic vs. powerlifting. Rip is for low athletic.
its all about mobility, olympic lifters need to get stronger at their sport which requires flexibility and mobility. they don't necessarily train the high bar squat to get better at pulling, low bar squats that go only to parallel cause tightness and muscle imbalances on the inner and outer thighs, many bodybuilders use the low bar squat to achieve that "pressing" feel to their squats, he seems quite biased towards powerlifting to be honest
An argument ad hominem is an argument against the speaker instead of the subject. "OMG he's not an oly coach" definitely qualifies. Well played, internet. (Yes, it's most specifically an appeal to authority fallacy.)
BTW, I disagree with Mark's argument for low bar squats, but I see no reason to doubt his intelligence, especially considering the sophomoric critiques.
He misused the phrase, which shows lack of understanding of said phrase, and was overly confident about it, which shows he didn't even realise his mistake.
All I am saying is that maybe he is mistaken about other things too.
@tempac91 he confused ad hominem for ad verecundiam. So what? It's not his field of expertise anyway. You wanna doubt what someone says about weightlfting because he confuses two Latin terms of reasoning?
rippetoe doesn't know what an ad hominem is so y should we trust him on what is good for squats?!
SardonicFox1994 5 days ago
I'd guess that OLY lifters squat high bar -atg because of the ROM .. also i belive they pull more weigh with their body being more upright then powerlifters...then again they cant pull in a high-bar squat position so i dont kno!
muzimuzi 1 week ago
High squats aren't as good for pulling off the floor but they're better for the front squat part of the clean. For pulling off the floor deadlifts and power cleans are better than low squats anyways, so low squats aren't of much use for oly lifting.
Also olympic lifting relies on explosiveness and stretch reflex which is typical of a high squat but not of a low squat, which is better for maximal (slow) strength.
Plus olympic lifts are done on heeled shoes, which don't agree with low squats.
BigUriel 1 week ago
@BigUriel So do front squats as assistance for your clean. They're the exact same movement as the receiving portion of the clean.
LB uses the stretch reflex, have you tried squatting LB and feeling how the stretch reflex is engaged?
I use a Pendlay Do-Win weightlifting shoe and I LB squat. It even helps and I wouldn't want to squat without them.
kariido1 6 days ago
I just re-read my post * i have competed... not completed sorry
Btglow87 1 week ago
(continued) my olympic lifts keep improving moving me closer to my goal of 400 on C&J and 300 on snatch.So my opinion High bar is a great exercise but if you are front squatting heavy and doing Snatch balance/overhead squats, then Low bar squat could be a great tool in your training to help you reach your goals.
Btglow87 1 week ago
@Btglow87 Thanks for a testimony from a seasoned lifter. If you could drop your name it would lend more credibility to your experience.
kariido1 6 days ago
(continued)because exactly as Rip said Squat is a exercise used to increase you strength for the other lifts, my Front squat went from 400 to 450 because my quads were not being stressed around the knee flexors as much and my pulling strength increased as well. Before I started getting into olympic weightlifting I could pull 650 after going a pure olympic lifting program my pulling strength decreased but now mixing in low bar squats and clean grip deadlifts my overall strength is much stronger.
Btglow87 1 week ago
I have completed in olympic weightlifting, I am not a world class lifter but have done 385 on Clean and Jerk and 275 on snatch. I have done both High Bar and Low Bar. At first I did do high bar but what I found from my own personal experiences is that doing High Bar, Front Squats, Snatch Balances/Overhead Squat, Snatch, and Cleans is a lot on the quads if you are training hard. So I switched to low bar and my numbers actually went up on Clean and Jerk and Snatch
Btglow87 1 week ago
"HAHAHA!!!! LOOK AT THAT PHAGGOT HIGH-BAR SQUATTING! HAHAHA! WHAT A PUSSY!!! HAHAHA!!! I'M SO HARDCORE!!!"
AMPepin1992 2 weeks ago
@ Mattormat1 I agree. And not only that, the high bar squat trains those muscles, that from the bottom of an Olympic lift, drives that weight up. The pull.....sure it stresses the back and is important and synonymous with all the Olympic lifts......but the bottom of that lift, and the catch of the clean or the snatch is really where all that driving and moving of weight happens! This guy has great points too... but the high bar back squat DEFinitely has its purpose with the olympic lifts when i
asabug5 3 weeks ago
Olympic lifters should only do Front Squats. Simulates the Olympic lifts. Tom Platz did "high bar" squats because it emphasizes the quads (as long as you can stay upright with the upper body).
ironray123 3 weeks ago
There is no controversy. Everyone who teaches World Class Olympic Lifters advocates the High Bar Squat and Rippetoe who doesn't teach World Class Olympic Lifters advocates a Low Bar Squat. This guy also teaches people to look at the ground when squatting. Why High Bar? Because it allows ATG squatting, which is essential for Olympic Lifts.
UltimateYEC 4 weeks ago
@UltimateYEC So that's your argument. "Because somebody named Boris wants you to do HB squats, that's enough of an excuse? No, I'm sorry, it's not. I need your reasoning."
"A crime persevered in a thousand centuries ceases to be a crime, and becomes a virtue. This is the law of custom, and custom supersedes all other forms of law" - Mark Twain
kariido1 6 days ago
@kariido1 Who the Fuck's Boris. That's a pathetic attempt at a Strawman. How about you meet your own burden of proof. A bigot with a big mouth who calls people "pussies" for disagreeing with him says do low bar Squats. I'll take my advice from the experts thanks.
UltimateYEC 2 days ago
100% MASTER.
bigmuscleify 1 month ago
Even though the inclination of the trunk of the first pull of Olympic lifts and the bottom position of a low-bar squat look similar, both are totally different. They cannot be similar to each other. It would be much more persuasive if he suggested a front squat over a high-bar squat to Olympic lifters because of an identical movement after catching a bar in a clean when he puts emphasis on a direct application or specificity.
TailorBell 1 month ago
I don't know what's better, but I do know the guy who won my weight class in state used the low bar squat.
54tumelo56 1 month ago
kinda annoying his left hand inside pocket
RiseofBane 1 month ago
Yes.. the fact that he pulls badly surely must mean his information SUCKS.. I mean he is only one of the most known coaches.. including writer of one of the best strenght books. Could it be that his knee problems are the reason he is playing it safe?
"Do as I say, not as I do"
Do you always do things the right way? Do you always progress slowly, and steadily for maximum results.. always eating the right food? NO.. but you advocate those things?
Once again.. "Do as I say, not as I do"
Bluebearworkout 1 month ago
The reason Rip teaches a low bar squat is because it relieves stress on the lower back and aligns the path of the bar with the middle of the foot. Rip also teaches that the clean and snatch should both start with the bar over the mid-foot and that the bar should travel in a straight path. He is simply trying to increase the carry over from squat to the Olympic lifts.
jzbowser 2 months ago
concerning the scapula-bar 2:30, aren't the trainee's hands far behind his scapulas when he pulls during a kettlebell swing or pull through?
JUNKGEE83 2 months ago
Just as I typed that, I looked at the top of the screen and Pat Mendez is the featured video - check it out !!
lou2bozzy 2 months ago
Coach Broz coaches the high bar squat, therefore it must be the right way ! If you don't know Coach Broz, look up Pat Mendez - If you don't already know this guy, your comment should be null and void !
lou2bozzy 2 months ago
I think an Olympic weight lifter prefers high bar squats because we can squat lower in a high bar squat, bending deeper at the knees - a similiar position to the bottom of an Olympic lift.
mattormat1 2 months ago
I've seen it more beneficial to high bar squat in training and low bar squat near and when you max out. As far as gaining power for your sport or your lift I find atg squats better because it stretches your ass/legs out a lot more IMO. I squatted low bar for a while. Found a drastic increase in my deadlift. However, towards the end of my training I found my flexibility a major issue in my ankles. I finally found the sweet spot in my high bar squat when I itch my ass with the floor. Amazing :)
Snarfdmypants 3 months ago
I like it how many commenter don't watch the full video. Mark gives his reasons for preferring the low bar squat and simply asks for the high bar reasons. Most people on here opposed to his view simply restate what mark says at the end; "Olympic weight lifters do it so it must be good">>logical fallacy much?
tdarcy88 3 months ago
the guy is fat. i don't believe him.
MG72MG 3 months ago
@MG72MG omfg most powerlifters that are what you deem "fat", look up Donnie Thompson for example, world record holder.
Jimbogf 2 months ago
There's many reasons to prefer the high bar squat for most athletes.
For one, it's safer for the back and involves the legs more instead of low back and hips.
CleverDjembe 4 months ago
i m new to the game but i think i know why olympic lifters should do high bar
when u snatch with a heavy weight u dont just get the bar over ur head
u do that WHILE U SQUAT UNDER THE BAR AND THEN U GET UP.THE MOVEMENT U GET AT THE BOTTOM IS A FULL SQUAT!SO TO RAISE URSELF U NEED A HELL OF A STRONG BUT N FLEXIBILIT WHICH A LOW BAR PARALLEL SQUAT WOULD NEVER GIVE.THATS WHY IT IS
kwstas67 4 months ago
This guy is smart but oIympic weightIifters know what there doing ive done high bar and Iow bar and i feeI that high bar is a more expIosive and more range of motion Iift. They both work your hips high bar gives everything posterior chain and the front of your body stregth if they do Iow bar they wiII Iack the front squat if you get your high bar squat up your front squat goes up if you get your Iow bar squat it wont. High bar gives a good carry over to any movment high bar is the way to go.
Lebron23KING23James 4 months ago
Low bar squats aren't really applicable to olympic lifting.
illouie 4 months ago
The truth about low-bar squat:
rookiejournal . com / low-bar-squats-and-gomad-suck-and-will-give-you-a-big-butt.html
RusiMusic 5 months ago
@RusiMusic
really good article
CleverDjembe 4 months ago
@CleverDjembe Thanks.
RusiMusic 4 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
If you actually use your brain you'll note the contradiction Ripptoe is giving. Funny reading the comments on this page as to who's a free thinker and who's a sheep and doesn't question authority.
Secondly the onus is on Ripptoe to produce an individual who can lift huge numbers like a 200+ clean n jerk using the low bar squat to help get their. Why would Olympic coaches be rqeuired to defend their methods LOL!!!! When he cant coach his was out of a paper bag!!!!
TreeSmoke1999 5 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
If you actually use your brain you'll note the contradiction Ripptoe is giving. Funny reading the comments on this page as to who's a free thinker and who's a sheep and doesn't question authority.
Secondly the onus is on Ripptoe to produce an individual who can lift huge numbers like a 200+ clean n jerk using the low bar squat to help get their. Why would Olympic coaches be rqeuired to defend their methods LOL!!!! When he cant coach his was out of a paper bag!!!!
TreeSmoke1999 5 months ago
If you actually use your brain you'll note the contradiction Ripptoe is giving. Funny reading the comments on this page as to who's a free thinker and who's a sheep and doesn't question authority.
Secondly the onus is on Ripptoe to produce an individual who can lift huge numbers like a 200+ clean n jerk using the low bar squat to help get their. Why would Olympic coaches be rqeuired to defend their methods LOL!!!! When he cant coach his was out of a paper bag!!!!
TreeSmoke1999 5 months ago
Man, I love listening to him talk.
CatalystCrow 5 months ago
LOL at dokokai & jason. Such ignorance.
55LanceBriggs 5 months ago
@55LanceBriggs But they're right...
LayEmOut60 4 months ago
I started with low bar squats because of Mark Riptoe's book and the Stronglifts website. It has always felt award for me. Time to try out the High Bar squat which is were I should have started because I read it is easier to go from high bar to low bar and HB trains a larger range of motion, also Olympic is way cooler than power lifting style.
cpandrews6 5 months ago
I have no idea if this point has been made, but what I noticed is that a HBBS resembles the overhead squat, at the end of the snatch. The bar in the hands is directly over where the bar would be in the HBBS. I think the problem wouldn't be the pulling, but the squatting up with the bar overhead. The same reason the FS is trained, to get out of a heavy clean with greater ease.
Rattattattatt 6 months ago
Well, maybe I misunderstood what he was saying but he does really claim that Low Bar SQ puts LESS shear forces on the spine...
I mean, I dont know a whole lot about biomechanics but I think he got that one mixed up because obviously the spinal erectors have to work quite a bit to keep the upper body in a straight line
But please correct me if I'm wrong
q7w8e9r4t5z6 6 months ago
@q7w8e9r4t5z6 as he said, the length of the lever arm. Mere physics. The farther out you put the weight, the more force the spine will have to compensate for. The same reason why you can hold 50lbs easier when you hold it close to you. Hold your arm out straight and hold it, now feel how harder your back has to work to hold it out straight. If the weight could sit comfortably in the exact middle of your back, wouldn't it be easier to squat? yes.
TheFitnessTutor 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
I'm 13, NATURAL at 203lbs and 6'4", no DRUGS not even PROTEIN SHAKES and I squat 690lbs for 1 clean ass to the grass rep, no suit!
I have video proof.
AndyHarglesis 6 months ago
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@andrewishanukaai1 Front squat is for cleans and ONLY cleans. If you haven't completely read my post, the high bar back squat resembles the overhead squat from the snatch, also you can't 'bounce' from the bottom in low bar squats but you can bounce from the ATG bottom in high bar squats. and bouncing from the bottom is very important in weightlifting! but the stress on low back/spine part is something i agree with.
TheSuperber 6 months ago
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TheSuperber 6 months ago
@dokokai Are you in shape? Search here in YouTube:
Coach Rip Squats 315x10
The guy is 50+ years old.
Moshe1010 6 months ago 27
@Moshe1010 Yes, I am in shape...otherwise I have no right to make my statement. I am 42yrs old, 5'-9", 215lbs, squat & dead 450x8, bench 315x10 AND maintain 12% bodyfat. I am also a 3rd Dan Black Belt in Kyokushin (full contact, bare-knuckle) Karate with 29yrs experience & teaching it the past 20yrs. I use weight lifting as cross training for the Karate. I am aware of Rips background but there's no reason to be fat just because someone powerlifts. It's about health & fitness as well as strength.
dokokai 6 months ago
@Moshe1010 I saw that. I was thinking that with the way that he rounded his back at the bottom,t he probably didn't get out of bed for a week. By all accounts Riptoe was a pretty heavy steroid user when he was younger. He is just living of the residuals of that.
jason44231 6 months ago
@Moshe1010 the video is to the right --->
tennowns 5 months ago
@Moshe1010 are you in shape, his form is horrendous in that 315 x 10 vid, hes practically GM'ing the weight.....rippetoe is an absolute air head...
yorkbell 2 months ago
@yorkbell
I disagree. I think those were really good looking squats, especially considering he's in his 50s who's squatting way more than 90% of men's 1RM, that's not bad at all.
Doomburger7 1 month ago
I never take advice from a guy who can't keep himself in shape. No matter what his experience or knowledge is.
dokokai 6 months ago
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PhilipWaterfield 6 months ago
@dokokai
Hahahahaha. While Rippetoe might not be in the shape he used to be, when he was lifting he was stronger than you will EVER be and you bet your ass he knows more about lifting as well.
Have you written a book that is widely accepted and followed throughout the powerlifting and bodybuilding communities? No? Then shut the fuck up.
Ragedhard 6 months ago
@Ragedhard 1) I am 42 now & past my prime as well, so I'm not lifting as much as I used to either. 2) I am not focused just on strength, I use weights as a cross training method for Kyokushin (full contact bare knuckle karate which I've been doing for 30yrs now), Rippetoe trains for strength only, so he should be stronger anyway. 3)The reason he wrote a book is for morons like you who can't think for themselves & figure it out on your own so you run out & buy his book & you think he's great.
dokokai 5 months ago
Ok . So here's the reason. You can't go ATG with low-bar back squats. So to build strength for the olympic lifts we need ATG squats coz in snatch and the clean we HAVE to squat ATG and that can be acheived with high bar squats and NOT with low-bar squats.
Plus at the bottom of the snatch the back angle is more like that of a high bar squat .
TheSuperber 6 months ago
@TonganMammoth and if we took high bar back squats out completely it would make more sense to add in more front squats and pulls than to add low bar back squat.
NoWelders 7 months ago
@TonganMammoth You ignored everything about why front squat can't completely replace back squat.
NoWelders 7 months ago
@TonganMammoth Whats with the scapula fetish? Fact is low bar forces you to be too bent over to have any similarity with the oly lifts. I don't know what snatch videos you watched, but what I saw was an upright back angle similar to the high bar. Why back squat over front squat? less upper back fatigue and more weight. Sure you can use more weight using low bar, but when you switch to low bar you dont bounce the same and your back is bent over completely unlike the oly lifts.
NoWelders 7 months ago
@TonganMammoth So high bar is bad because overhead is closer to snatch recovery, but low bar is good cause its similar to pull despite pulls you know being the exact same as a pull. Pulling is the easiest part of the lift anyway, most can easily pull more than they can recover with. So why squat in a way that will help your pull when what you need is recovery? You can't overhead squat cause your shoulders are too tired from doing snatches, cont..
NoWelders 7 months ago
@NoWelders front squats not gonna be very fun because your upper back is tired from all those cleans. So your left with legs that still have some gas in them, so you backsquat. Now will you high bar or low bar? Low bar might help your pull but you already can pull 20kg more than you can stand up with. High bar makes most sense since you need to be able to stand up with more weight.
NoWelders 7 months ago
@TonganMammoth The angle of your back is the same in a high bar back squat and the catch position of a snatch. In a front squat the back is more upright. Overhead squatting is limited in the amount of weight you can use. What rip is saying really makes no sense. If you dont need to high bar squat because you can front squat then why lowbar squat to strengthen your pull when you could just...do pulls.
NoWelders 7 months ago
lol 4:48 i wasnt there yet.
rogue8853 7 months ago
i think the high bar is better for OL lifters. i doubt any world class OL lifter does low bar squat. OL squatters go atg and are more flexible. for those with long torsos or less flexible i think lowbar is better but you cant go atg in lowbar imo. watch the guys from "average joes gym" vids. the squat mendes does is the definition of OL squat.
rogue8853 7 months ago
@TonganMammoth I said snatch not clean.
NoWelders 7 months ago
What an idiot. Never compete in olympic weightlifting in his life. The purpose of full back squat in oly weightlifting is to develop explosive power through glutes and hamstrings. That's why we squat ass to grass. with straight upper body. Powerlifting squat is useles movement fo rnonflexible people.
m5p944 7 months ago
good vid depends on your goals Low Bar squats should only really be used if you are prepping or competing for powerlifting specifically to have a shorter ROM and higher weight the goal. High bar squats are for oly lifters and athletes because it allows development for functional strength and flexibility, the larger ROM. It is also safer because you can not use as much weight ego is left at the door, or you don't worry about making the lift either you got it or drop it "no, it was high!" bullshit
yasinpatel12345 8 months ago
I prefer high bar squatting IMMENSELY. I actually find there's less stress on my lower back, my knees are 'better behaved,' and more importantly, it just feels so much more natural. It all comes down to personal preference.
CelticAndProud 8 months ago 10
@CelticAndProud I just switched to high bar squats today and based on my experience I wholeheartedly agree with you. Being a person with long legs, low bar squats were difficult to stay upright with, but high bar was the cure.
PalerLaze 4 weeks ago
FUCK there goes 290lb of squat development
pumitaproductions 8 months ago
high bar mimics the snatch recovery. There is your reason.
NoWelders 8 months ago
HB > LB
wralphh 9 months ago
shows how good a teacher someone can be with some experience and a common sense approach
MrAbe345 9 months ago
Operating off of Rippetoe’s premise, and not considering the essential hip swing (kinetic energy) energy Oly lifters develop from the hips swinging in the radial path to initiate the upward pulling movement (centroid changes and upward inertia develops) of either the snatch or C&J of an Oly lifter, I might be inclined to go with Rippetoe’s premise. Operating off his premise a good mornings/front squats regime would be a far better training regime than using a low bar/front squats regime.
jnm0319 9 months ago
In using the low bar squat the weight is lower on the back (distance in shortens requiring greater input force from lower back muscles) so the muscles of the back must work harder, with less hip joint rotation (unless a narrow stance is used and then mechanical advantage diminishes).
jnm0319 9 months ago
It is, and will always continue to be, an issue of mechanics (Force in x Distance in = Force out x Distance out), and relative to desired training outcomes. With an Oly squat the weight is high on the shoulders, located at the end (top) of the lever arm in a complex, at least 3 lever, compound machine. The lower back must arch to help the weight stay over center mass (centroid = belly button) to allow the hip joint rotation that is not so essential to a low bar squat.
jnm0319 9 months ago
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John Broz who is training American athletes in Olympic lifting said it like this when asked if he always has his lifters do high bar squats, " Always. Because you travel more distance. More distance = more work. why be lazy when you are trying to get strong? You are only cheating yourself."
kerwinmatt 9 months ago 2
but coaches named boris are the best
canitasteyou321 9 months ago 3
How is there a controversy in Olympic weightlifting? Top Olympic lifters and trainers advocate high bar squats. Riptoe is not a top Olympic lifter or trainer. Riptoe's reason for using a low bar squat is that it simulates a pull. Maybe? Why not just do the movement and pull? I doubt that any Olympic coach would be against a low-bar squat because it never hurts to switch it up. As a matter of credibility, has Riptoe trained a person into the Olympics? Likely, Riptoe is wrong.
jason44231 9 months ago 29
@jason44231 Another person doing what he just mentioned. Complaining yet not offering a reason for the high bar. So what's your reason for high bar squats?
TheFitnessTutor 6 months ago
@TheFitnessTutor The point is that he isn't supporting his case at all nor does he possess the petigree to speak from authority on Olympic lifting and he contradicts himself while he is talking. For example, Is the high bar squat recommended by Olympic lifters or is it a "controversy." Minimize back strain by doing something that increases back strain? Listen to what he is saying. He is giving apparently scientific or educated explanations, but the are riddled with contradiction an error.
jason44231 6 months ago 4
@jason44231 Great points and observations. Good to see another person such as you being able to see through Rippetoe's double talk & contradiction. He uses the same methods as a cult leader by sounding knowledgeable & enlightened while speaking to the uniformed, so they buy his explanations without question. And what is the result of this... a goofy movement like CrossFit & the like. Just like the Bosu ball fad of the late 90's & early 2000's.
dokokai 5 months ago
@dokokai Riptoe is like a lot of Guru's, big on marketing and light on substance. This clip says it all.
jason44231 5 months ago
@TheFitnessTutor I had already said as much in my other two posts that I placed her but they were deleted. I will tell you why. I crushed our hero's arguments.
jason44231 6 months ago
@jason44231 "Riptoe's reason for using the low bar...maybe?" The reasoning behind that statement is based on the fact that the geometries between the Olympic pulling lifts are more similar to that of the low bar squat - and the only reason why an Olympic lifter would do a squat in the first place would be to help lift more weight during his Olympic lifts. Therefore, the low bar squat is a more efficient exercise to transfer strength gains from back squatting to a pulling exercise.
mattormat1 2 months ago
@mattormat1
and how you suppose that oly lifters will stand up from "the hole" in snatch?
finglofin 2 months ago
@jason44231
100% agree. although elite weightlifter dont have troubles for pull the bar and getting under the bar, the hard part is stand up for jerk, so his argument maybe is right but is useless. In other wise high bar deep squat simulates the lower position in snatch so is much more effective and thats why coaches use it
finglofin 2 months ago
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jason44231 9 months ago
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jason44231 9 months ago
ill be trying low bar squats tomorrow. I never even knew there were different places to put it on your shoulders! I thought high bar vs low bar was depenendent on how deep you go!
Knoxroxmysox 10 months ago
I personally agree in some ways, I prioritize front and high bar squats but I do incorperate low bar squats which does supprisngly help my pulls + is a little variation so fair play to this....
mikeyburger1 10 months ago
I have a mate who can low bar squat at least 20% more weight than I can, and yet, I can high bar squat 20% more than he can. I know that this isbecause I practice high bar squats more than he does. This tells me that his muscles and the neurologiocal pathway for for the low bar squats does NOT help his high bar squats. So I think that the reason for an Olympic Lifter to High Bar Squat is to develop the power in the deep knee bend during the snatch and the front squat during C &J.
Rustybarbell 1 year ago
@Rustybarbell it wouldnt be related to leg strength but to confort holding the bar in a certain way. practing low bar squats is safer when going ATG as it reduces the torque exerted on the back.
JFSKO 11 months ago
@Rustybarbell
The front squat develops power for the deep knee bend because the bar is in the same position (racked on the shoulders)and your torso is more upright. I think Ripptoes reasoning is, if you use the Low bar squat you shift the emphasis to the posterior chain which needs to be strong to get the bar off the floor, and the front squat will allow you to buid strength for the knee bend, that way you get more posterior chain strength than if you did high bar squats.
Khryspy 10 months ago
So guys can any of you put up a arguement against his logic here?
SGTcrackey666 1 year ago
@SGTcrackey666 He forgets about weightlifting shoes. They reduce the ROM for your hamstrings allowing you to have a more upright posture which removes stress from your lower back. The rest is as they say, you can squat more weight with the bar on your traps than on your delts which stimulates the fibres more.
Midgert89 1 year ago
@Midgert89 thanks for the reply i find tho the low bar so much harder than having the bar rest up high so akward to have it down there.
Il get those shoes btw ;)
SGTcrackey666 1 year ago
I think this kid's olympic coach knows what hes doing.
watch?v=WK7m6I5m6gY&NR=1
11cory 1 year ago
Is his argument only limited to Olympic lifters? What about just general strength training? I didn't understand what he was saying around 4:20, is he saying lower back squat is better for both olympic lifting AND general strength training, or just the former?
NippleBerry 1 year ago
as much as i respect mark rippetoe and his teaching in regards to powerlifting, he is not an expert on olympic style lifting by any means. with a low bar back squat, you have a hip break rather than a knee break for the descent. low bar squats are almost always done with a wide stance and stop at parallel. you are also not as upright during the squat as with the high bar. all of this translates to the clean and snatch, ie narrow stance, knee break, upright position, ass to grass.
eamonob84 1 year ago 4
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56mikeo 1 year ago
rippetoe i love u.
iqof14 1 year ago
Ad hominem? Eh? What a moron. If he is going to use logical fallacies at least use them properly.
vjohn82 1 year ago
@vjohn82 Dictionary(oxford) definition of ad hominem - (of an argument or reaction) arising from or appealing to the emotions and not reason or logic. Correct me if i am wrong but Rip says "I can't get anybody tell me why not" @4:42 and "What the hell's the reason?" @4:54 and "I need your reasoning" @5:06 and "So here's my reason and i'd like somebody else's but nobody will tell me" @5:09. I am not an expert at logical fallacies but educate me why its not ad hominem and why he is a moron?
TheMad106 1 year ago
@TheMad106 Ad Hominem is not an appeal to emotion, that's a separate logical fallacy. Ad Hominem is an argument against the person making a claim. "It describes an argument based on the failings of an adversary rather than on the merits of the case."
Even so, your own definition still does not apply as the original argument Mark was referring to were not based upon emotion.
vjohn82 1 year ago
@TheMad106 Rip should accuse the high-bar advocates of the "appeal to authority" fallacy. It's not really an ad hominem fallacy, but you can see the relationship: in both cases you judge an argument not on its merits, but on personal characteristics. In other words I think Rip is wrong, but not importantly wrong.
OTOH, if the high-bar advocate says, "I don't need to listen to your argument Rip, 'cause you're not an Olympic coach," then that's ad hominem. But that's not how he tells the story.
schnamtaro 9 months ago
@schnamtaro There are a lot of holes in his argument in terms of why a low bar squat would be better than a high bar squat. All he has really done is put forth a hypothesis that needs to be tested. He has not provided any evidence. His hypothesis has a few flaws the first being that he recommends the low bar squat because it conforms to the geometry of the pull but at the same time eliminates back stress caused by a high bar squat. This makes no sense.
jason44231 9 months ago
@jason44231 I was addressing only the correctness of his fallacy-identification, not his overall argument. I agree with you about evidence. That said, I don't hear him claiming that low-bar eliminates back strain, only that it minimizes it relative to high-bar. (See 1:35.) Of course whether that's true or not is a separate issue.
schnamtaro 9 months ago
At 4:49 - "Well! The best Olympic weight lifting coaches in the world use the high bar squat and there must be a reason!".. "What the hell is the reason? That's an ad-hominen arguement!" ---> I literally LOL'd at this part! It was epic lol
VBSVBS 1 year ago
this is exactly what i think! i am always saying low bar is better even for Olympic lifters. the posterior chain usage and body position is much better for jumping etc.
would this guy recommend using olympic shoes for low bar? that is my main problem at the moment. trying to decide weather to take of my weightlifting shoes when i back squat!
bobbyatopk 1 year ago
@bobbyatopk I have the same problem when deciding to wear my Oly shoes for Low bar squats. I feel like I squat better Low bar without the shoes. The shoes take the hips out of it, I feel. What did you end up deciding to do since this post?
marshalljman 8 months ago
stop garbing your dick fatass
booiiboot 1 year ago
4:14 - 4:18
Listen to the pitch slowly getting higher
"if that is actually the CASE!"
MrChocolatenob 1 year ago
What about the fact that High bar squats have a better transfer to the Overhead Squat which is the bottom position of the snatch
h4d193 1 year ago 2
I hate the term "olympic" lifting. I do weightlifting, I don't lift in the olympics...
Apjooz 1 year ago
Do you have any suggestions on how to strengthen the upper back for a person who high bar back squats? I get some thoracic rounding during heavy squats and it's hindering my squats.
Chiefontheditty 1 year ago
@Chiefontheditty Had the same issue for a while. Military press and front squats got job done for me. I suppose rowing would've have helped as well had I done it.
cadmiumdestruction 1 year ago
@Chiefontheditty Dynamic shrugs with heavy weight.Read some Bill Starr articles.
themetalgod21 1 year ago
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chavios 1 year ago
my opinion - if you wanna get good at pulling then pull... if you wanna get good at squatting then squat...
nikkonaa 1 year ago
a high bar squat has a more pronounced bounce in the bottom which is extremely relevant to oly lifting.
snizshizzle 1 year ago
i wish my college classes were like this.
Pretending2Bsmart 1 year ago 54
Doesn't a conventional deadlift approximate a pull better than a low-bar squat?
educheny 1 year ago
@educheny It seems to me what matters most is that the bar travels as straight as possible. I see no reason why Oly squats can't do that as well as low bar.
Rip has this obsession with the scapula. Well if the scapula are what matters most, shouldn't we be doing behind the back military presses instead?
LexPhilogus 1 year ago
@LexPhilogus Fair enough point but he is just stating the direct point of where it all seems to take place: scapula over the foot.
shawnthomasbellon 1 year ago
Anyone have a reason?
fataslin 1 year ago
the logical fallacy that he mentions is wrong. People are using the "appeal to authority" fallacy, not ad hominem. Ad Hominem is where you are insulting someone.
fromo6040 1 year ago
IF he wants Olympic lifters to stop ATG backsquat with a high bar, then he should produce an Olympic Lifter that MEDALS in the Olympics or World Championships....
...'till then, shut it.
1stNeoSpartan 1 year ago 2
@1stNeoSpartan
because that's an easy fucking thing to do, especially in America where all the talent is taken by football, baseball, basketball, hocket etc., right?
tubermann1 1 year ago
@tubermann1
no because that is a damn hard thing to do. And because the quality of a coach is measured by the athletes they produce. Rippeote gets noobs strong fast, and that it awesome. But his expertise in OlyW is severely lacking, yet he wants to change how OlyLifters across the globe squat.
1stNeoSpartan 1 year ago
@1stNeoSpartan Here's what I don't understand. I don't know why he thinks low bar is easier on your back, when your back is much more vertical in an Oly squat.
At the very least, that should compensate for the bar being farther away from the lower back.
I feel like I'm doing a good morning when I low bar squat.
LexPhilogus 1 year ago
@LexPhilogus I totally agree.
dman519 1 year ago
@LexPhilogus I think in theory it's better because the lever ar is shorter, but in reality you have to compensate the bar sliding down your back by leaning forwards, which puts the back at risk (unless you have huge posterior delts that hold the bar).
Raptorel 1 year ago
@Raptorel
exactly. Also, a high bar squat keeps your back automatically tightened throughout the squat because your shoulder blades are closer together, which in turn reduces injury.
SweetandSaltyNutbars 1 year ago
@SweetandSaltyNutbars Well you should keep the shoulder blades together in the low bar variant too.
Raptorel 1 year ago
Who are you?
DerekD7777 1 year ago
lol...boris
fukidomev2 1 year ago
the stance in the low bar squat is usually wider than the one used for olympic lifts
Shefketbey 1 year ago
@FriedSTickMan, that is incorrect, Myself using the low bar squat, I can easily go below parallel. It depends on the kind of stance you use, slightly narrower than shoulder width combined with GOOD hip and hamstring flexibility you can easily go ATG. It depends on the individual using the low-bar squat, not the squat itself.
aznkid0123 1 year ago
@aznkid0123
Why would you have your feet closer then shoulder width are you on crack or are you a pigeon?
n00bzor86 1 year ago
i have a reason... you cant go ass to grass in low bar squats... and going ass to grass is what you do in cleans and snatches.
FriedStickMan 1 year ago
@FriedStickMan Sure you can... that has nothing to do with bar placement
it's more of a stance issue
mac2k2020 1 year ago
@FriedStickMan actually, you can go ag in low bar, it just needs a little bit more flexibility...
skata123456789456123 1 year ago
Is this guy drunk?
dokokai 1 year ago
No, just from Texas.
pblbndmed2009 1 year ago 17
@pblbndmed2009 Hahahaha! Nice one!
dokokai 1 year ago
@dokokai
That sounds like an ad hominem argument... do you have a good reason as to why he's wrong?
leviksu 1 year ago
trance, he's not arguing for " low bar squats that go only to parallel." He specifically encourages them for PC strength, which necessitates going below parallel. I think they're a great idea in theory to do at least once a week with a belt b/c of the extra weight, but I've just never trained with anyone who can flawlessly alternate low bar squats and O lifts.
As an aside, there's a lot of confusion with high vs. low bar and olympic vs. athletic vs. powerlifting. Rip is for low athletic.
alexofalabama 1 year ago
its all about mobility, olympic lifters need to get stronger at their sport which requires flexibility and mobility. they don't necessarily train the high bar squat to get better at pulling, low bar squats that go only to parallel cause tightness and muscle imbalances on the inner and outer thighs, many bodybuilders use the low bar squat to achieve that "pressing" feel to their squats, he seems quite biased towards powerlifting to be honest
trance4mation 1 year ago
I personally feel more comfortable doing olympic squats and in achieving a good depth, but, then again this is my opinion
asdodge1 1 year ago
An argument ad hominem is an argument against the speaker instead of the subject. "OMG he's not an oly coach" definitely qualifies. Well played, internet. (Yes, it's most specifically an appeal to authority fallacy.)
BTW, I disagree with Mark's argument for low bar squats, but I see no reason to doubt his intelligence, especially considering the sophomoric critiques.
alexofalabama 1 year ago
I've bought Rippetoe's book and follow his program but he does not come across as an terribly bright person.
Kind arrogant and also misused the term "ad hominem".
tempac91 2 years ago
@tempac91 He's a strength coach, not a classics professor
NapalmNewt 1 year ago 3
@NapalmNewt
He misused the phrase, which shows lack of understanding of said phrase, and was overly confident about it, which shows he didn't even realise his mistake.
All I am saying is that maybe he is mistaken about other things too.
tempac91 1 year ago
@tempac91 Yeah, I cringed when he mis-used the phrase too
NapalmNewt 1 year ago
what phrase did he mis-use? im not catchin it?
awholeneweazy 1 year ago
@tempac91 he confused ad hominem for ad verecundiam. So what? It's not his field of expertise anyway. You wanna doubt what someone says about weightlfting because he confuses two Latin terms of reasoning?
Cornampoo 1 year ago 2
This has been flagged as spam show
@Cornampoo Read my previous comments.
tempac91 1 year ago
@Cornampoo Good point! Everyone is a critic. The "JOY" of the Internet.
shawnthomasbellon 1 year ago
update:
Boris from USSR doesnt do High Bar sqats no more, he does depth jumps, now duplicate those forces int he gym!
visla84 2 years ago
i am a sprinter, should i high bar or low bar squat?
PowerSprinter 2 years ago
I would do high bar, it promotes more balance between the posterior and anterior chains.
m1kasd 2 years ago