If determinism is real, and we have now choice in determining our end, why make any choices? What kind of god would create a person only to destine them to an eternity in hell?
You don't seem to deal with the panthesitic or panentheistic theories of god. In that instance, we would all exist as a part of the will of that god, and would have no free will of our own. Yet, of course, god would have will. Determinism is will, but not our own.
Just because there is a lot of probability in physics, this doesn't contradict determinism. Just because we can only guess It doesn't mean the outcome is not determined, just that we can't find it precisely. That's what probability is!!!
I think this is a horrible argument you confuse and strawman the creationist position. To say A is the same as A is not the same as saying 2 parallel universes which both could be labeled A at some time X would continue to be identical because to make such a claim would require a deterministic model which if "Dr" Creg does promote has not been included as evidence in this video. They spout such crap out of their mouths I dont see why you need to make up shit to discredit their position.
Cheap trick with the video title, I can't in good conscience thumb it. That said, still interesting.
You do of however create a false dichotomy between mechanical determinism and free will. To begin, Heisenberg is talking about uncertainty in measurment, not being able to determine the location of a particle doesn't mean it doesn't have a fixed location. Setting that aside, so far as we can tell things do behave on a probablistic basis in quantum (unless we just can't make sense of the...
Patterns yet). But probability and free will are by no means the same thing, not by any standing definition of free will at least.
I tend to agree with some form of the idea put forward by Schroedinger in response to his feline paradox. In that paradigm questions of free will don't really seem to make much sense.
thumbs down for me... futurama did nothing... i dont wanna hear some bullsh*t about my dinner in 10 years time... I wanted to hear lines from futurama that cleverly and simply proved god has no free will, like the title says!
I have thought of this before as well and this is why religion doesn't make much sense to me. Most religions claim you have a choice to believe in god, but I think what really determines what you believe in are the environmental influences on you.
I don't know. What about those times when you are very indecisive about something and then end up choosing one, but you just as easily could have chosen the other? Maybe if there were two identical universes, I would've chosen the same thing. Maybe there was some method or reason why I chose the one, but maybe it was just random. (Sorry, I don't know if I explained what I meant very clearly)
@SocialLocust Everything that you do happened because of incidents before it. The same reason in Universe A that you decided to go with one of the options, will be the same reason in Universe B that you will go with that same option. Think of it this way; what did you do 10 minutes ago? Now if time reversed itself by 10 minutes, would you do anything different? What if it reversed 1000 times? Chances are you will always do the same thing all 1000 times.
Saying that you have two identical universes at one point in time does not mean that you'll have two identical universes at some point in the future. If we view state of existence as a function of time, which few would argue against, then we might have state1(t) = state2(t) at some time t, much in the way that 5*t = 8+t when t = 2. However, at a different t, we could have different outcomes, which would imply that the functions were never identical to begin with, so state1 != state2.
why are we so opposed to the 'loss' of free will? im perfectly fine with a deterministic universe. remember significant digits? in order to observe 'identical' results in almost any science experiment i have ever done, one had to limit significant digits. is this the uncertainty principal at work? or is it really just a reflection of our inability to quantify anything with any precision because we know so little about the original system?
Here is a comment I attempted share regarding a video entitled "Atheist Christopher Hitchens destroyed in debate by Christian" The zealot poster (shockofgod) screened out my response:
If universe A differs from universe A then wouldn't never have been A? If A equals A and if the second universe differs even slightly then wouldn't it be universe B?
Does free will exist? I don't know. I guess it might depend upon the perspective of the observer, though I'm inclined to say that it, by and large, doesn't. As with all rules there might be exceptions to this, but the first step on the way to deviating from a predetermined act or event is to be aware of it in the first place. Gods are no exception, thought they might have some inkling of where to start, at least.
Freewill is an illusion. Who we are predetermines everything we're going to do. Even if we change, that's just part of who we are, we were destined to change course. There's only one course we can take, only one course we WILL take that leads us through our life. I'm not arguing religion or anything like that, I'm just saying. Freewill is a nice idea, but we trap and limit ourselves as it is, God doesn't have anything to do with that.
@MissImpala67 I disagree, considering the the human mind is constantly being changed by new information, it's unfair to say "Who you are determines what you will do." I mean, past experience influence our choices but that doesn't dispelled free will. We make choices based on current and past feelings, but their still choices.
@MissImpala67 Freewill isn't an illusion. We change all the time depending on loads of different factors in our life. If my parents decided to beat me as a child, I'm sure I would have turned out completely different to who I am now.
Michio Kaku seems to think that electrons operate with the same rules and structure as people. Try applying macro/classical physics to quantum physics. Whoops, turns out they operate a quite differently. The world is deterministic, "Hey, get used to it"
Depends entirely on how strictly you define 'identity'. The way it is typically used, we frequently consider two things 'identical' when in fact they are not. It also presumes that the universe is logical, and that contradictions are impossible. But while this seems reasonable from the nature of logic itself, it certainly isn't a certain requirement for how a system such as the universe could in theory function. What's possible in theory is harder to answer than what's consistent with physics.
Stop this . It is ridiculous - Insert the human creativity in which we arrange and rearrange relations and items according to our current emotional state, and you get an entirely different picture - hence the Monty Phyton quote in the beginning.
time does NOT exist unless we are here to create it within our perceptions and observe it ourselves under the guidlines we have put in place to measure it. There is no time for a rock in space, there is no need for it, only we, as humans measure time and live our lives according to this measurement. Time is irrelevant to non living object that cannot think, time only matters to beings that will eventually "run out of time".
What? This video didn't prove anything concerning God. Look atheists, if you're going to not believe in God that is fine. Just stop make up shitting videos like this and pretending like it means something. Even Einstein thought you guys were a bunch of people who were just butthurt at your upbringings. Atheists, are you even trying?
This claim that Free Will and the law of Identity. Where exactly is your proof that's it's either one or the other? You seem to just say that it cannot be so. But I ask why? Why can't two identical beings make different choices? Free choice cannot logically be based on what you are(identity), but what you desire to be(CHoice).
@ApologeticsBenJoiner think of it this way, for two things to be completely identicle all 'choices' involving them MUST have been the same else they would not be identicle
I'm a former atheist and present day agnostic. We can only explain certain properties of energy, matter and space-time to see how this universe of forms and mathematics work. We have no clue what it actually is and probably never will. From objective materialism viewpoint there is no actual room for your subjective conscious experiences. Electromagnetism doesnt have any known property of emerging a subjective, first person viewer to this world. If you think you figured it out, think again.
@WSWarthog I beg to differ. I think universe with its laws could very well be just a form of a conscious entity and we are "part of it". God of form, geometry and mathematics, God of Spinoza. Not any known theist view. Since we have a subjective experience it is a part of something and we dont know what. Nothing really has to exist beoynd it to us. I find it more logical to say that we are a feature of this somehow. If something came to exist from nothing, we shouldnt be a part of it.
"I beg to differ." Well you are wrong; and nothing in your post deals with what it is to be an agnostic or an atheist. One is to do with whether or not you can know, the other with whether or not you believe.
@WSWarthog Well labeling with terms is bit hard since there is thin line between agnostic atheism and agnostic theism but I would lean towards agnostic theism rather than agnostic atheism.
@WSWarthog Believe what though? 'God' is not a very clearly defined term. 'I don't believe in god' can only be interpreted in one of 3 ways:
1. 'god' is an undefined term. Therefore it is a meaningless statement.
2. You have a specific definition of 'god' you don't believe. (But that begs the question: why that definition?)
3. You reject every possible definition of 'god', but a bit of thought would show that to be demonstrably irrational, given what some possible definitions are.
All correct. You can define God however you like, and then define yourself as either theistic or atheistic about that *particular* definition of a God. For instance, if you defined God as that which necessitates existence, almost every scientist or logician is in some sense a theist. However if you define him as that sentient agent which necessitates existence, the aforementioned will be largely atheistic. We call ourselves 'atheists' in common parlance as nobody as far as
I'm aware posits the existence of a non-sentient diety; so it's clear that we don't believe in the existence of any sentient, omnipotent, omnipresent, ethereal being that precedes the laws of logic, physics, mathematics etc. and sustains their validity - as Spinoza and some so-called "sophisticated theists" posit. It's also clear that we don't believe in any of the Gods of the major religions, so 'atheist' is a broadly correct description of ourselves.
@WSWarthog That's a good way of putting it. It's taken me a while to unravel what athiests mean, but then I guess I've been over-thinking it. (to me, the most interestingm ajor religion is Buddhism, which, to my understanding doesn't technically even believe there is a god as such. At least one Buddhist leader has also stated that if Buddhism and science conflict, then clearly the Buddhist teaching is wrong. Quite a contrast to the religions more typically discussed.). Anyway, thanks.
The problem with this video is they assume that God could be bounded by the human mental ability. What's so hard to believe about God defying logic? Logic is a human creation and and is therefore incomplete and error prone. We're talking about an entity that could create the entire universe, a universe where you and I are merely specs in a boundless space. So why is it so hard for God to defy logic? If you were to say that God defies human logic then i agree, otherwise, this argument is invalid.
If god is neither space or time he doesn't exist. The whole "it exists outside reality" argument is just one big, ridiculous logical fallacy brought up by believers to justify a existence of something without the requirement for proof. Not only that but it contradicts itself horribly. On one hand god acts in the measurable realm of reality and on the other he exists outside of it.
@Basketalbi God is the creator of time and space and is not effected by his creation, he is the law giver so he can bend the laws of physics.Well somethng had to always exist and that something could be the creator.You believe the universe created its self and we believe the universe was created.None of us have any proof.
Remeber God is more comlex than the thing you are explaining and yu dont need an explanation of the explanation.You are talking about the origin OF the universe.
@Basketalbi i wonder if god can slap himself silly in the face with the one hand that is in reality, while still remaining in his NON REALITY.. kind of a weird thought. :P
@Basketalbi you realize that our "realm" isn't really measurable... what we see is measurable only to us, because of our limit of abilities to sense, so we translate everything to a point that we can keep track of it, but we can't see/sense everything... so there for we can't know everything, and so we can't explain existence itself, if we can't do that how can we say god isn't real?
You don't seem to have a lot of knowledge in that field, or any at all for that matter. We aren't limited to our senses we have electromagnetic spectrums with things like magnetism, radiation etc. Besides, you're argument is just as bad as that other guys "ohh, we can't detect god because he is "outside" our perception. That would pretty much go against all definitions men came up with for god and if thats the case, hes just another unfalsifiable hypothesis like ghosts.
@Basketalbi oh wow... your one of "those" type of ignorant people... "i know some things but not all, and based on what i know, your wrong" pfft give me a break. it's called opening your mind. atoms, radiation, magnetism(which we haven't always known about) are all things that fall into our spectrum of what we are able to comprehend, with ourselves and the current technology we have. how are you certain that those are all we will know? there WILL be new ways to see, question is how and where.
@gainpro You don't believe in something until it is proven. Why does your mind work backwards to this notion? Well... it's because you have been brainwashed to believe in something. End of.
@MrDougiemo just cause i keep an open mind to it, doesn't mean i believe in it... clearly your not "backwards" and supposedly not "brainwashed" mind couldn't catch this... maybe you should have an "open" mind to the idea that maybe you've been uselessly brainwashed by paranoid, and clearly unstable fools. it's nice to take an interest in things, but to think that you think your mind is able to process the full information that possibly is out there, and think it's safe to "believe", is just sad
@MrDougiemo actually i did mean your. just for you. cause i know you like to correct something so meaningless like a youtube comment.... your* doing such a good thing! OOPS another mistake... you better correct me! i've been a bad boooy! ;)
hey i see Basketalbi made a mistake! you better make this a threesome! ooOOOooh~
Yeah sure nice, ad hominin, i guess being a realist who doesn't believe in things unproven is now considered being ignorant, excuse me for not opening my mind for every useless mythological junk that theres is out there. People like you seem to have distaste for reality, you're always tagging things on to it. The burden of proof lies on you. you either proof your supernatural magic or shut up and except reality.
@Basketalbi oh you know how to be an ass, great now we can confirm your an adult. if your not going to give a reply.. don't bother... well, replying... and sticking your tongue at me just because you didn't understand what i said(i'm not talking about god btw smart one).
it's not reality, it's people like you i have a distaste for, of whom think that they know something after listening to some random with mommy issues, ramble on against god just because he didn't like sunday school... congrats.
Nice ad hominim again, seems you don't have a lot of experience in debating otherwise you would avoid logical fallacies that hurt your credibility and trustworthiness. Still waiting for your incredible arguments as to why magic exists that would crumble all ideas of reality we've ever had since ancient greece and been constantly developing ever since.
@Basketalbi naaaah, ironic that your using ad hominim. speaking of credibility, providing insults, and asking for an argument, yet not giving one, doesn't help yours.
as i hope you can tell i've already took note of your inability to comprehend, and to be an adult, as well that your not worth taking seriously anymore. magic is the crap science thinks it just proved when quantum physics clearly says no, you didn't prove anything. have fun with modern fairy tales. again what was your reply?
Is that seriously you all have to say? Guess you figured you don't have any points to make so you just stopped. You sound extremely frustrated do you know that, happens mostly to people who are challenged in their faith by harsh reality. Modern fairy tales? Like the one where you split the atom and get an atomic explosion? Good lord, do you even know how ridiculous you sound. Prove me your voodoo magic that would go against an incredible scientific track record or shut up.
@Basketalbi proof? where's your's? also it's funny how i predicted who you are, and how accurate it was, sad though really. instead of repeating yourself how about you man up here hmm? or are you afraid you'll contradict yourself... i'm not going to even fully read your next "reply" unless i see a single intelligible bit of communication, but considering i won't, good bye.
Are seriously demanding proof of reality and science? Ever heard of technology, medical science, criminology etc? Or do you want proof that 2+2=4? I don't even understand where you're going and I believe you don't either. You sound very confused and frustrated. Typical tactic used by a believer who's forced into dead end, a mix of ad hominim and red herring in hope that i forget the original meaning of the debate.
@gainpro Judging by your writing and grammar, you aren't exactly the brightest around the block, but just for your information, when someone claims something that would go against the common acceptable, provable and working, judging by this keyboard I'm typing on, system then it is his job to present said claims in forms of evidence. I know your kind of people and this is the point where you give up, shut down all communication and keep on living in your bubble of denial.
"-keyboard I'm typing on, system then it is his-" riiiight.
well since your repeating yourself, i'll repeat as well, this is you: "I know (some) things (but not all), and based on what i know, your wrong" you have yet to say why i'm wrong or ad hominim... nice.
@gainpro Anyways, that god would never be like the christian god (or any other organized religion's god for that matter). It is literally impossible that an "intervening god" exists. The idea is completely illogical. P.S. How come you have exactly four thumbs up in every single one of your comments? Lol! Multiple accounts perhaps? Or perhaps four religious friends? Whatever the reason it looks obvious. Haha.
@gainpro Since the beginning of humanity, people have use the theory of god to explain the unexplainable. In other words, religion and theism were our firsts philosophical attempts. Throughout time, with the help of science, we have stopped using supernatural believes to explain everything. Still, the question about the creation of the universe is still unanswered and you may say that the possibility of a god is still open. That doesn't mean it will remain unanswered forever.
@Basketalbi "X exists outside the set of all existing things" is a contradiction, "X exists outside time and space" isn't, unless you successfully argue that all things which exist are temporally and spatially extended.
I would offer as counter-evidence to this claim certain abstract principles like the laws of logic and mathematical principles. I think most would agree these things have an ontological essence of some sort even though they aren't located in space and time.
@Chefodeath Yes! I good point bringing up Math. Plato is a little outdated, but he would even argue that the principle of a triangle is MORE real than something in the shape of a triangle, or a drawing of it, because images and physical objects are temporary, and a mathematical principle is absolute.
To take that further, you can never see an actual triangle, only things in the shape of one, and that doesn't make the principle of a triangle any less real.
@Chefodeath Abstract concepts exist because they are constructs of our mind. So long as the mind exists, so will they. The same way, I would think the logic of a triangle would only be seen as something tangible, if there was matter, space, or time for it to apply to.
@fitzgibbon01 How is it lazy? It's simple fact. And for your information, I was not refereng in any way if god exists. Atheists ant Theists will find this easy to agree with. To theists God is much more than what any man of science can expain him/her as, and to an Atheist, they believe either that there is no known way to prove if God exists and/or that if he/she did not he/she would be nothing to time or space since God didn't exist. So, long story made short, this is completely bogus info.
if god wanted everyone to follow him he shouldn't have given everyone free will. if someone chooses not believe in him do to the free will he gave them, how can he have the right to punish them? and if he knows ahead of time anyway, then god has no point to be made and is dangerously confused. and you put your entire life in this gods hands. talk about "blind faith".
The bottom line is that just because we cannot know all properties of an electron simultaneously does not mean that they somehow do not fit into "the clock" so to speak. If they pop in and out of our universe into another and back... then that still can equate to determinism.... but it would mean that we are deterministically linked to as many other places as those electrons are going.... which could be infinite, and though not identical universes necessarily..they would still be deterministic.
I would say that just because Heisenberg's notion of the uncertainty of electron super position is true... that this fact does not eliminate the idea of determinism at all. I think determinism is totally true, even though I don't want it to be on some level. Just because electrons pop in and out of existence and that our observation limits our knowledge into either position or velocity...does not mean that that very fact is still not part of a determinative model.
Its enogh to say that God is all-knowing and therefore HE can not have a free will since He can not do what He knows that wont happen . So HE can only do what he already knows that HE will Do in the future . So He has no choice since him knowing the future restricts him from doing anything that will not happen in the future . HE becomes the slave of the infinite flow of information that is contained within himself .
@hldemi Well God exists outside time, since He has no past or future self but ok. Where does your theory make sense? Let's assume we could travel through time and see that we would create a virus that would wipe out all men. Does that mean that if I see myself doing that, I can't stop myself in the past? You're saying that because God has seen Himself do something, then He must do it, why? That future only exists to God, and if He changed His mind, no one else would be any the wiser.
@hldemi You're also assuming that the future dictates God, and God dictates the future. The future doesn't show God what He will do, God reveals His future plan to others, hence Biblical Prophets. The Bible makes it very clear that while God knows mans future, He can edit that future, since mans future does not determine God. There's many points where God changes a mans future, Moses for example. Does that change God's 'future'? No, as stated God exists outside time.
@hldemi How do we know God exists outside time? Under the assumption for a moment that God is real, we must assume He has always existed. Yet Genesis starts with 'In the beginning God created...' which mean God was already their before the beginning, and He created time. If God created time with a starting point, then He must exist outside time, or He would have to creat Himself first. Since God is infinite and omni present, He cannot be contained in time. I think that's pretty logical.
@KurtCobain198666 Well if god is all knowing that means that He knows already every his decision ... He cannot change his mind for He already knows that He would do that . It doesnt matter if the time and space dimension is involved . That is the paradox of all-knowing and omnipotent God . He cannot change his mind . If He can then He does not know everything . How can a god change mans future when the mere change is the future ?? Its absurd . Future means something that will happen .
@hldemi I think you're getting lost in your own logic. The defintion of future is not what 'will happen' is just means 'The time or a period of time following the moment of speaking or writing;' If God changes His mind, He still knows the outcome of that change. If God knows the decision He will make, but doesn't like the outcome, why can't He change His mind? Since God exists outside time, why can't He change Hs mind? Would we know if He did?
@KurtCobain198666 Im not lost , we are just thinking differently . Whats the difference between what will happen and period of time following the moment in which something will happen? In order to make a distinction you need to prove that one can act outside of time which you cannot do . If god knows the outcome of the change why He did not make the right decision first time . Why need to change a mind. Why make an decision which outcome you dont like if you know the outome even before deciding
@hldemi Name one place in the Bible where God didn't make the right decision? I understand it can be complexing, like if God knew man would pick the fruit, why put it their? But God is all powerful, and all knowing. If you state that God 'cannot' do something, then He stiops being God by definition. I've already shown you a Bible quote that God acts outside of time. God created time, for God to create time, He must've existed before it, and still exists outside it.
@KurtCobain198666 The whole bible is the bad decision from my point of view . If i state that god cannot do something then He stops being god by definition . Hm I can state many paradoxes of such god . Can god make a rock that he canot lift ? Is god merciful and just ?? He cannot be both since mercy is a suspension of the justice ... Can He made another one of himself . If He can then He can me made ... All-powerful and all-knowing is self refuting statement .
@hldemi Also can god be brave ? For to be brave one must experioence fear . One that is omnipotent and all knowing cannot experience fear by definition of fear ...
@hldemi Using the Biblical definition of God, and an example from the Bible- give me a passage that states God cannot change His mind. We know God can stop being 'all knowing' because when He came Jesus He 'emptied Himself.' But since God is infinite, there was still the all powerful Father in Heaven. This demonstrates His infinite power, where as you're giving quite a weak example of a 'semi' powerful God. So please use the Bible to prove God cannot change His mind...
@KurtCobain198666 Why would I have to use the bible ? I was not using necessarily biblical definition of a god.Every holy scripture has the same omnipotent all knowing definition. Its all the same bullshit.If he knows everything He by definition can not change his mind for that would do only someone who figures that he made a mistake first time which got him to te situation to change a mind . The god who knows everything cannot got in such situation by definition on allknowing.That is the fact
@hldemi How can you prove that God has never changed His mind? If God changed His mind, we wouldn't know, because as i've stated God exists outside time and can change time. For example all men were going to Hell, because we're born sinners. God sens the Word and along comes Salvation- God changed the outcome of time. Can you give a Biblical quote that states definatly that God cannot change His mind. I can give an example of God changing His mind if you like? (cont next post)
@KurtCobain198666 I cannot prove and neither can you.Quoting some biblical lines does not interest me since I do not consider them a valid argument.From a scientific point of view It has not been proven that something can act ouside of time.From a philosophical argument about all-knowing omnipotent god it stands that such a god cannot change his mind since why would the need for change appear if He already knows everything.We change mind only when we think that we are wrong.How can god be wrong?
Interesting conversation. Although the fact, that a being which knows everything in the present and everything thats about to happen can not change his mind, is pretty obvious. I dont really understand why you keep arguing with KurtCobain198666, its a rookie youtube mistake : )
@eyk234 Glad that you share my path of logic . Well I argue obviously for the same of argument as Christopher Hitchens once said ... Its a nice feeling and it helps me to improve my arguing skills . Cheers
@hldemi Haha thats right, cant argue against Hitchens' quotes ;)
Still, at some point I simply stopped arguing with Christians it's too depressing talking to people that generally refuse logical thinking...but i don't blame them (most of them), if i had experienced years of living in a religious social environment i'd probably be the same. It is impossible for me to imagine how hard it has to be to accept that all you have believed in for so long is simply wrong.
@eyk234 Heh agreed though I dont think that what wasnt reasoned into existence cant be reasoned out . It may be hard and it may be impossible in some cases . But when arguing on you tube , one has to bear in mind that a lot of people are reading this . Many of them are on the fence and your good arguments can help them in many ways . So keep on arguing :D
It took me a long time to realize that, but you're right. When the light of reality breaches that wall of ignorance, the mind begins to tremble at the realization that everything, EVERYTHING, one has been framing one's life with is utter bullshit.
And for some, that is just ... impossible to do. Way too much has been invested to just throw it away and the very thought of doing so is too frightening.
It is really tragic, and it makes me despise religion even more.
@hldemi Exo 32:9-10 states God is 'fed up' with Israels childish moaning, and said He will destroy them. Would God have destroyed them? Yes, so why didn't He? Because Moses pleads Him not to- God changes His mind. It's not that Moses can control God, but rather that Moses incited God's compassion. Intervention can change God's mind- we're all sinners, Jesus interceds, anyone can be forgiven if they accept Jesus- God's mind changes but never for no particular reason.
@KurtCobain198666 So god didnt know that the Moses will plead him no to kill those people nad that he will do it in such way in order to provoke gods compassion ? Its absurd for all-knowing God .
you stretch things too much, with your logic I could prove that cannibalism is more sustainable and nutritional than red and white meat pumped up with growth hormones and antibiotics.
@burkerow I think we disagree on what constitutes "free will". I define it as the ability to make choices, but I'm not sure what your definition is if neither caused nor uncaused decisions qualify.
Not sure I understand the problem. So we are supposing there is a possible world A and another possible world B. Both possible worlds have, at a given time (T1), identical worldly states. Then we go on to suppose that at some future time (T2)--future in each world's timeline--the state of each world is no longer identical. Where is the logical contradiction in that? The set of worldly states at T1 are still identical (by assumption), despite the non-identical set of worldly states at T2.
I was once demonstrated by a religious person that omnipotence presupposes omniscience and vice-versa, so you can't have it without the other.
Basically how omnipotence is defined, it also includes being able to know everything. I don't remember the other half of his argument that proves omniscience needs omnipotence.
Now as we know, omniscience and omnipotence are also mutually exclusive. That makes the christian/muslim god double-impossible.
You can make it simpler than that. If god is all knowing, he'll always make the "best" decision in every circumstance ... and he knows what we'll do too ... so he knows exactly what he (and we) will be doing for the rest of eternity.
@CyberLance26 I disagree with you. They fear wrath...HELL, where as atheists don't. If we cease to exist, we aren't capable to fathom existence. So death is just ultimate peace if nothing at all, or wait nothing and peace? Well I hope you know what I mean.
@rooti70 Yea i know that some of them are scared that they will end up in hell but most of them probably have been mostly good in there lifes and are sure they will end up in heaven.
And in my opinion the thought that you will cease to exist when you die is really scary and it sure does not feel like the ultimate peace to me.
That you will never be able to do anything at all anymore and simply disappear feels terrifying.
Sometimes i strongly envy the people that believe in an afterlife.
@CyberLance26 "Religious people are not as scared of dying as atheists are."
From what authority do you make this comment? What makes you think atheists are more afraid of death than believers of an afterlife? I've been both, a believer for 30 years and a committed atheist for 25. I'm less fearful of death than when I was a Christian. An afterlife is just wishful thinking and this life is just better and more precious when you know it's the only one you have.
@pinball281 Well, God is even more problematic because you have to believe that a God (a supreme supernatural existence) would have to come out of nothing, like John Milton said: "God created himself"
This is not proof, in fact it's a disproven threory that was disproven long before many of you were ever born. Einstein disproved newton with the simple knowledge that light travels faster than anything else. So i.e newton's theory of gravity (which leads into this wound up clock idea) was already disproven, also with the findings of the expansion of the universe the wound up clock idea was disproven. I suggest reading einstein's theory of relativity and create a better understanding before
The guy's voice is so freaking annoying.
NodirAtaev 1 hour ago
If determinism is real, and we have now choice in determining our end, why make any choices? What kind of god would create a person only to destine them to an eternity in hell?
marcoglara2012 2 hours ago
This vid should be labeled spam.
WarbladeX1 10 hours ago
You don't seem to deal with the panthesitic or panentheistic theories of god. In that instance, we would all exist as a part of the will of that god, and would have no free will of our own. Yet, of course, god would have will. Determinism is will, but not our own.
jle717 10 hours ago
Great as always.
yashaouchan 11 hours ago
lol some religious freak made this video
MovieTrim 14 hours ago
Assuming there is individual things, which by the way, there isn't. Only the illusion of such things.
KALfilms 16 hours ago
no 1 gives a fuck who cares were here thats all that matters
balcurriskidz 16 hours ago
Just because there is a lot of probability in physics, this doesn't contradict determinism. Just because we can only guess It doesn't mean the outcome is not determined, just that we can't find it precisely. That's what probability is!!!
Benom8 17 hours ago
I think this is a horrible argument you confuse and strawman the creationist position. To say A is the same as A is not the same as saying 2 parallel universes which both could be labeled A at some time X would continue to be identical because to make such a claim would require a deterministic model which if "Dr" Creg does promote has not been included as evidence in this video. They spout such crap out of their mouths I dont see why you need to make up shit to discredit their position.
bobbysnobby 19 hours ago
Michio Kaku, Theoretical Physicist - awesome understatement. I really admire his unintuitive way of approaching things.
TheSulphyr 20 hours ago
The guy's voice is unbearable!
ghostfires 23 hours ago
The scientist is not a philosopher.
einLesenderArbeiter 1 day ago
i fucking hate the guys voice, go fuck ur self dude
rwasta7007 1 day ago
Mind fucked
3p1cBlu3 1 day ago
Cheap trick with the video title, I can't in good conscience thumb it. That said, still interesting.
You do of however create a false dichotomy between mechanical determinism and free will. To begin, Heisenberg is talking about uncertainty in measurment, not being able to determine the location of a particle doesn't mean it doesn't have a fixed location. Setting that aside, so far as we can tell things do behave on a probablistic basis in quantum (unless we just can't make sense of the...
draon16 1 day ago
Patterns yet). But probability and free will are by no means the same thing, not by any standing definition of free will at least.
I tend to agree with some form of the idea put forward by Schroedinger in response to his feline paradox. In that paradigm questions of free will don't really seem to make much sense.
draon16 1 day ago
this video makes you look really stupid.
JBles825 1 day ago
thumbs down for me... futurama did nothing... i dont wanna hear some bullsh*t about my dinner in 10 years time... I wanted to hear lines from futurama that cleverly and simply proved god has no free will, like the title says!
xNecroKey 1 day ago 31
I have thought of this before as well and this is why religion doesn't make much sense to me. Most religions claim you have a choice to believe in god, but I think what really determines what you believe in are the environmental influences on you.
eugkra34 1 day ago
This hurts my brain, show me with puppets.
downeyb 1 day ago
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downeyb 1 day ago
I don't know. What about those times when you are very indecisive about something and then end up choosing one, but you just as easily could have chosen the other? Maybe if there were two identical universes, I would've chosen the same thing. Maybe there was some method or reason why I chose the one, but maybe it was just random. (Sorry, I don't know if I explained what I meant very clearly)
SocialLocust 1 day ago
@SocialLocust Everything that you do happened because of incidents before it. The same reason in Universe A that you decided to go with one of the options, will be the same reason in Universe B that you will go with that same option. Think of it this way; what did you do 10 minutes ago? Now if time reversed itself by 10 minutes, would you do anything different? What if it reversed 1000 times? Chances are you will always do the same thing all 1000 times.
chipenduck 1 day ago
I dont think Iam smart enough to fallow this concept . phap phap phap .
andersonpm5 1 day ago
yes he does have free will because he can chose to fry you right now or he can spare you life and since God is mercyful he chooses not to kill you
TrueBlueCanuck 1 day ago
Saying that you have two identical universes at one point in time does not mean that you'll have two identical universes at some point in the future. If we view state of existence as a function of time, which few would argue against, then we might have state1(t) = state2(t) at some time t, much in the way that 5*t = 8+t when t = 2. However, at a different t, we could have different outcomes, which would imply that the functions were never identical to begin with, so state1 != state2.
mrmacdaddy11716 1 day ago
why are we so opposed to the 'loss' of free will? im perfectly fine with a deterministic universe. remember significant digits? in order to observe 'identical' results in almost any science experiment i have ever done, one had to limit significant digits. is this the uncertainty principal at work? or is it really just a reflection of our inability to quantify anything with any precision because we know so little about the original system?
thrashish 1 day ago
Here is a comment I attempted share regarding a video entitled "Atheist Christopher Hitchens destroyed in debate by Christian" The zealot poster (shockofgod) screened out my response:
Craig destroys his own argument:
1 God has the characteristic of Infinity: 58:31
2 Craig asserts that; THAT WHICH IS INFINITE CANNOT EXIST; 16:34 to 17.18.
3"This shows that infinity is an IDEA IN YOUR MIND, which does not exist in reality" - Craig
Therefore, Craig provides an argument why God cannot exist
JInks232 1 day ago
If universe A differs from universe A then wouldn't never have been A? If A equals A and if the second universe differs even slightly then wouldn't it be universe B?
northpaw2000 2 days ago
I promise im not trying to troll, but how/ why do people believe in multiple universies? It sounds like bullshit.
(looking for serious answers, im not trying to troll)
mini1gerbel 2 days ago
Does free will exist? I don't know. I guess it might depend upon the perspective of the observer, though I'm inclined to say that it, by and large, doesn't. As with all rules there might be exceptions to this, but the first step on the way to deviating from a predetermined act or event is to be aware of it in the first place. Gods are no exception, thought they might have some inkling of where to start, at least.
---
Or I might be talking out of my ass. Who knows.
coregoon 2 days ago
Freewill is an illusion. Who we are predetermines everything we're going to do. Even if we change, that's just part of who we are, we were destined to change course. There's only one course we can take, only one course we WILL take that leads us through our life. I'm not arguing religion or anything like that, I'm just saying. Freewill is a nice idea, but we trap and limit ourselves as it is, God doesn't have anything to do with that.
MissImpala67 2 days ago
@MissImpala67 I disagree, considering the the human mind is constantly being changed by new information, it's unfair to say "Who you are determines what you will do." I mean, past experience influence our choices but that doesn't dispelled free will. We make choices based on current and past feelings, but their still choices.
northpaw2000 2 days ago
@MissImpala67 Freewill isn't an illusion. We change all the time depending on loads of different factors in our life. If my parents decided to beat me as a child, I'm sure I would have turned out completely different to who I am now.
MrDougiemo 2 days ago
Michio Kaku seems to think that electrons operate with the same rules and structure as people. Try applying macro/classical physics to quantum physics. Whoops, turns out they operate a quite differently. The world is deterministic, "Hey, get used to it"
TheJohnSanderson 2 days ago
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your free willed choices cant be set ? Can't I inevitably eat what I want?
UtterlyMoot 2 days ago
i hope to god that your voice doesn't really sound like that
charliepheonix 2 days ago
Mind blown
Theyoungandfamous123 2 days ago
I can't understand half of what you say.
chailizard 2 days ago
makes you think!
Qaphsiel1 2 days ago
Depends entirely on how strictly you define 'identity'. The way it is typically used, we frequently consider two things 'identical' when in fact they are not. It also presumes that the universe is logical, and that contradictions are impossible. But while this seems reasonable from the nature of logic itself, it certainly isn't a certain requirement for how a system such as the universe could in theory function. What's possible in theory is harder to answer than what's consistent with physics.
KuraIthys 2 days ago
does anyone else find the narrators voice annoying? he's got a mouth full of spit and it's unpleasant.
SuperLockedown 2 days ago
'Philosopher'
NickKingThe1st 2 days ago
you have a radio voice, but I hate radio voices
TheBazooie 2 days ago
Another interesting logic trap runs this:
> God creates all things
> God divines the laws regarding sending people to heaven/hell
> All things happen because God wills it
Ergo: God is creating people specifically to send to hell.
CPCGamer 2 days ago
Stop this . It is ridiculous - Insert the human creativity in which we arrange and rearrange relations and items according to our current emotional state, and you get an entirely different picture - hence the Monty Phyton quote in the beginning.
prebenso 2 days ago
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The narration fucking sucks. Some thick accented english prick that sounds like he's mumbling. I cant fucking understand what the fuck he's saying.
mrbilltsmith 3 days ago
Well, this video assumes that God is some dude floating around on clouds...
GongFuWushu 3 days ago
I need and WE need more people in the world of ignorance and intelligence like Thunderf00t.
PolishRatEuropean 3 days ago
time does NOT exist unless we are here to create it within our perceptions and observe it ourselves under the guidlines we have put in place to measure it. There is no time for a rock in space, there is no need for it, only we, as humans measure time and live our lives according to this measurement. Time is irrelevant to non living object that cannot think, time only matters to beings that will eventually "run out of time".
SuperDelusionist 3 days ago
What? This video didn't prove anything concerning God. Look atheists, if you're going to not believe in God that is fine. Just stop make up shitting videos like this and pretending like it means something. Even Einstein thought you guys were a bunch of people who were just butthurt at your upbringings. Atheists, are you even trying?
HrMerrlol 3 days ago
This claim that Free Will and the law of Identity. Where exactly is your proof that's it's either one or the other? You seem to just say that it cannot be so. But I ask why? Why can't two identical beings make different choices? Free choice cannot logically be based on what you are(identity), but what you desire to be(CHoice).
ApologeticsBenJoiner 3 days ago
@ApologeticsBenJoiner think of it this way, for two things to be completely identicle all 'choices' involving them MUST have been the same else they would not be identicle
thewrightys 3 days ago
@thewrighty The law of Identity is about what you are. Free Choice is about what you become.
ApologeticsBenJoiner 2 days ago
I'm a former atheist and present day agnostic. We can only explain certain properties of energy, matter and space-time to see how this universe of forms and mathematics work. We have no clue what it actually is and probably never will. From objective materialism viewpoint there is no actual room for your subjective conscious experiences. Electromagnetism doesnt have any known property of emerging a subjective, first person viewer to this world. If you think you figured it out, think again.
StardustSpaceMonkey 4 days ago
@StardustSpaceMonkey
Agnosticism isn't a 3rd position between atheism and theism.
WSWarthog 4 days ago
@WSWarthog I beg to differ. I think universe with its laws could very well be just a form of a conscious entity and we are "part of it". God of form, geometry and mathematics, God of Spinoza. Not any known theist view. Since we have a subjective experience it is a part of something and we dont know what. Nothing really has to exist beoynd it to us. I find it more logical to say that we are a feature of this somehow. If something came to exist from nothing, we shouldnt be a part of it.
StardustSpaceMonkey 3 days ago
@StardustSpaceMonkey
"I beg to differ." Well you are wrong; and nothing in your post deals with what it is to be an agnostic or an atheist. One is to do with whether or not you can know, the other with whether or not you believe.
WSWarthog 3 days ago
@WSWarthog Well labeling with terms is bit hard since there is thin line between agnostic atheism and agnostic theism but I would lean towards agnostic theism rather than agnostic atheism.
StardustSpaceMonkey 3 days ago
@StardustSpaceMonkey
That makes you a theist as opposed to an atheist, not an agnostic as opposed to an atheist.
WSWarthog 3 days ago
@WSWarthog Believe what though? 'God' is not a very clearly defined term. 'I don't believe in god' can only be interpreted in one of 3 ways:
1. 'god' is an undefined term. Therefore it is a meaningless statement.
2. You have a specific definition of 'god' you don't believe. (But that begs the question: why that definition?)
3. You reject every possible definition of 'god', but a bit of thought would show that to be demonstrably irrational, given what some possible definitions are.
KuraIthys 2 days ago 4
@KuraIthys
All correct. You can define God however you like, and then define yourself as either theistic or atheistic about that *particular* definition of a God. For instance, if you defined God as that which necessitates existence, almost every scientist or logician is in some sense a theist. However if you define him as that sentient agent which necessitates existence, the aforementioned will be largely atheistic. We call ourselves 'atheists' in common parlance as nobody as far as
WSWarthog 2 days ago
@KuraIthys
I'm aware posits the existence of a non-sentient diety; so it's clear that we don't believe in the existence of any sentient, omnipotent, omnipresent, ethereal being that precedes the laws of logic, physics, mathematics etc. and sustains their validity - as Spinoza and some so-called "sophisticated theists" posit. It's also clear that we don't believe in any of the Gods of the major religions, so 'atheist' is a broadly correct description of ourselves.
WSWarthog 2 days ago
@WSWarthog That's a good way of putting it. It's taken me a while to unravel what athiests mean, but then I guess I've been over-thinking it. (to me, the most interestingm ajor religion is Buddhism, which, to my understanding doesn't technically even believe there is a god as such. At least one Buddhist leader has also stated that if Buddhism and science conflict, then clearly the Buddhist teaching is wrong. Quite a contrast to the religions more typically discussed.). Anyway, thanks.
KuraIthys 2 days ago
The problem with this video is they assume that God could be bounded by the human mental ability. What's so hard to believe about God defying logic? Logic is a human creation and and is therefore incomplete and error prone. We're talking about an entity that could create the entire universe, a universe where you and I are merely specs in a boundless space. So why is it so hard for God to defy logic? If you were to say that God defies human logic then i agree, otherwise, this argument is invalid.
FuManchu8788 4 days ago
Owned
guicho0o 4 days ago
But, God is neither of space or time, so he/she doesn't have to follow these "laws"
kitkatboi888 4 days ago
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@kitkatboi888
If god is neither space or time he doesn't exist. The whole "it exists outside reality" argument is just one big, ridiculous logical fallacy brought up by believers to justify a existence of something without the requirement for proof. Not only that but it contradicts itself horribly. On one hand god acts in the measurable realm of reality and on the other he exists outside of it.
Basketalbi 4 days ago 8
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@Basketalbi God is the creator of time and space and is not effected by his creation, he is the law giver so he can bend the laws of physics.Well somethng had to always exist and that something could be the creator.You believe the universe created its self and we believe the universe was created.None of us have any proof.
Remeber God is more comlex than the thing you are explaining and yu dont need an explanation of the explanation.You are talking about the origin OF the universe.
pinball281 3 days ago
@Basketalbi i wonder if god can slap himself silly in the face with the one hand that is in reality, while still remaining in his NON REALITY.. kind of a weird thought. :P
SuperDelusionist 3 days ago
@Basketalbi you realize that our "realm" isn't really measurable... what we see is measurable only to us, because of our limit of abilities to sense, so we translate everything to a point that we can keep track of it, but we can't see/sense everything... so there for we can't know everything, and so we can't explain existence itself, if we can't do that how can we say god isn't real?
gainpro 2 days ago 4
@gainpro
You don't seem to have a lot of knowledge in that field, or any at all for that matter. We aren't limited to our senses we have electromagnetic spectrums with things like magnetism, radiation etc. Besides, you're argument is just as bad as that other guys "ohh, we can't detect god because he is "outside" our perception. That would pretty much go against all definitions men came up with for god and if thats the case, hes just another unfalsifiable hypothesis like ghosts.
Basketalbi 2 days ago
@Basketalbi oh wow... your one of "those" type of ignorant people... "i know some things but not all, and based on what i know, your wrong" pfft give me a break. it's called opening your mind. atoms, radiation, magnetism(which we haven't always known about) are all things that fall into our spectrum of what we are able to comprehend, with ourselves and the current technology we have. how are you certain that those are all we will know? there WILL be new ways to see, question is how and where.
gainpro 2 days ago 5
@gainpro You don't believe in something until it is proven. Why does your mind work backwards to this notion? Well... it's because you have been brainwashed to believe in something. End of.
MrDougiemo 2 days ago
@MrDougiemo just cause i keep an open mind to it, doesn't mean i believe in it... clearly your not "backwards" and supposedly not "brainwashed" mind couldn't catch this... maybe you should have an "open" mind to the idea that maybe you've been uselessly brainwashed by paranoid, and clearly unstable fools. it's nice to take an interest in things, but to think that you think your mind is able to process the full information that possibly is out there, and think it's safe to "believe", is just sad
gainpro 2 days ago 4
@gainpro What are you talking about? I don't believe in anything that's not proven. Simple.
Learn some grammar, please. It hurts my head reading your comments.
MrDougiemo 2 days ago
@MrDougiemo your one to talk... End of.
gainpro 2 days ago 4
@gainpro you're*
MrDougiemo 2 days ago
@MrDougiemo actually i did mean your. just for you. cause i know you like to correct something so meaningless like a youtube comment.... your* doing such a good thing! OOPS another mistake... you better correct me! i've been a bad boooy! ;)
hey i see Basketalbi made a mistake! you better make this a threesome! ooOOOooh~
gainpro 2 days ago 4
@gainpro u mad?
MrDougiemo 2 days ago
@MrDougiemo no, i'm turned on. really that's it mrgrammarnazi?... you are indeed sad.. was hoping to have fun with you. you* bro*
gainpro 2 days ago 4
@gainpro you sound mad
MrDougiemo 2 days ago
@gainpro
Yeah sure nice, ad hominin, i guess being a realist who doesn't believe in things unproven is now considered being ignorant, excuse me for not opening my mind for every useless mythological junk that theres is out there. People like you seem to have distaste for reality, you're always tagging things on to it. The burden of proof lies on you. you either proof your supernatural magic or shut up and except reality.
Basketalbi 2 days ago
@Basketalbi oh you know how to be an ass, great now we can confirm your an adult. if your not going to give a reply.. don't bother... well, replying... and sticking your tongue at me just because you didn't understand what i said(i'm not talking about god btw smart one).
it's not reality, it's people like you i have a distaste for, of whom think that they know something after listening to some random with mommy issues, ramble on against god just because he didn't like sunday school... congrats.
gainpro 2 days ago 2
@gainpro
Nice ad hominim again, seems you don't have a lot of experience in debating otherwise you would avoid logical fallacies that hurt your credibility and trustworthiness. Still waiting for your incredible arguments as to why magic exists that would crumble all ideas of reality we've ever had since ancient greece and been constantly developing ever since.
Basketalbi 2 days ago
@Basketalbi naaaah, ironic that your using ad hominim. speaking of credibility, providing insults, and asking for an argument, yet not giving one, doesn't help yours.
as i hope you can tell i've already took note of your inability to comprehend, and to be an adult, as well that your not worth taking seriously anymore. magic is the crap science thinks it just proved when quantum physics clearly says no, you didn't prove anything. have fun with modern fairy tales. again what was your reply?
gainpro 2 days ago 5
@gainpro
Is that seriously you all have to say? Guess you figured you don't have any points to make so you just stopped. You sound extremely frustrated do you know that, happens mostly to people who are challenged in their faith by harsh reality. Modern fairy tales? Like the one where you split the atom and get an atomic explosion? Good lord, do you even know how ridiculous you sound. Prove me your voodoo magic that would go against an incredible scientific track record or shut up.
Basketalbi 2 days ago
@Basketalbi proof? where's your's? also it's funny how i predicted who you are, and how accurate it was, sad though really. instead of repeating yourself how about you man up here hmm? or are you afraid you'll contradict yourself... i'm not going to even fully read your next "reply" unless i see a single intelligible bit of communication, but considering i won't, good bye.
gainpro 1 day ago 3
@gainpro
Are seriously demanding proof of reality and science? Ever heard of technology, medical science, criminology etc? Or do you want proof that 2+2=4? I don't even understand where you're going and I believe you don't either. You sound very confused and frustrated. Typical tactic used by a believer who's forced into dead end, a mix of ad hominim and red herring in hope that i forget the original meaning of the debate.
Basketalbi 1 day ago
@gainpro Judging by your writing and grammar, you aren't exactly the brightest around the block, but just for your information, when someone claims something that would go against the common acceptable, provable and working, judging by this keyboard I'm typing on, system then it is his job to present said claims in forms of evidence. I know your kind of people and this is the point where you give up, shut down all communication and keep on living in your bubble of denial.
Basketalbi 1 day ago
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gainpro 1 day ago
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@Basketalbi well that was a good one.
>grammar
"-keyboard I'm typing on, system then it is his-" riiiight.
well since your repeating yourself, i'll repeat as well, this is you: "I know (some) things (but not all), and based on what i know, your wrong" you have yet to say why i'm wrong or ad hominim... nice.
gainpro 1 day ago 2
@gainpro Anyways, that god would never be like the christian god (or any other organized religion's god for that matter). It is literally impossible that an "intervening god" exists. The idea is completely illogical. P.S. How come you have exactly four thumbs up in every single one of your comments? Lol! Multiple accounts perhaps? Or perhaps four religious friends? Whatever the reason it looks obvious. Haha.
mTmFilms 1 day ago
@mTmFilms what? youtube must be bugging out on me, i only see a handful with four.
gainpro 1 day ago
@gainpro Since the beginning of humanity, people have use the theory of god to explain the unexplainable. In other words, religion and theism were our firsts philosophical attempts. Throughout time, with the help of science, we have stopped using supernatural believes to explain everything. Still, the question about the creation of the universe is still unanswered and you may say that the possibility of a god is still open. That doesn't mean it will remain unanswered forever.
mTmFilms 1 day ago
@Basketalbi "X exists outside the set of all existing things" is a contradiction, "X exists outside time and space" isn't, unless you successfully argue that all things which exist are temporally and spatially extended.
I would offer as counter-evidence to this claim certain abstract principles like the laws of logic and mathematical principles. I think most would agree these things have an ontological essence of some sort even though they aren't located in space and time.
Chefodeath 1 day ago 7
@Chefodeath Yes! I good point bringing up Math. Plato is a little outdated, but he would even argue that the principle of a triangle is MORE real than something in the shape of a triangle, or a drawing of it, because images and physical objects are temporary, and a mathematical principle is absolute.
To take that further, you can never see an actual triangle, only things in the shape of one, and that doesn't make the principle of a triangle any less real.
larkermouse 1 day ago
@Chefodeath Abstract concepts exist because they are constructs of our mind. So long as the mind exists, so will they. The same way, I would think the logic of a triangle would only be seen as something tangible, if there was matter, space, or time for it to apply to.
chiveerum 1 day ago
@kitkatboi888 That's a very lazy justification for a god's existence.
fitzgibbon01 4 days ago
@fitzgibbon01 How is it lazy? It's simple fact. And for your information, I was not refereng in any way if god exists. Atheists ant Theists will find this easy to agree with. To theists God is much more than what any man of science can expain him/her as, and to an Atheist, they believe either that there is no known way to prove if God exists and/or that if he/she did not he/she would be nothing to time or space since God didn't exist. So, long story made short, this is completely bogus info.
kitkatboi888 1 day ago
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if god wanted everyone to follow him he shouldn't have given everyone free will. if someone chooses not believe in him do to the free will he gave them, how can he have the right to punish them? and if he knows ahead of time anyway, then god has no point to be made and is dangerously confused. and you put your entire life in this gods hands. talk about "blind faith".
danieldvs100 4 days ago
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danieldvs100 4 days ago
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danieldvs100 4 days ago
The bottom line is that just because we cannot know all properties of an electron simultaneously does not mean that they somehow do not fit into "the clock" so to speak. If they pop in and out of our universe into another and back... then that still can equate to determinism.... but it would mean that we are deterministically linked to as many other places as those electrons are going.... which could be infinite, and though not identical universes necessarily..they would still be deterministic.
godspilgrim 4 days ago
I would say that just because Heisenberg's notion of the uncertainty of electron super position is true... that this fact does not eliminate the idea of determinism at all. I think determinism is totally true, even though I don't want it to be on some level. Just because electrons pop in and out of existence and that our observation limits our knowledge into either position or velocity...does not mean that that very fact is still not part of a determinative model.
godspilgrim 4 days ago
If GOD has no free will, That just does not Explain to me why I just farted.
In4rnorz 4 days ago
Beliefs can only be changed if the belief is new. If the belief is old - don't bother.
Trancecend 4 days ago
correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it said that there is only one God?
BSGU1 4 days ago
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill;
I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose freewill.
Wrote that myself.
culwin 4 days ago
@culwin I didn't know you were Neil Peart. Fuck off.
Frintu72 2 days ago
Its enogh to say that God is all-knowing and therefore HE can not have a free will since He can not do what He knows that wont happen . So HE can only do what he already knows that HE will Do in the future . So He has no choice since him knowing the future restricts him from doing anything that will not happen in the future . HE becomes the slave of the infinite flow of information that is contained within himself .
hldemi 4 days ago
@hldemi Well God exists outside time, since He has no past or future self but ok. Where does your theory make sense? Let's assume we could travel through time and see that we would create a virus that would wipe out all men. Does that mean that if I see myself doing that, I can't stop myself in the past? You're saying that because God has seen Himself do something, then He must do it, why? That future only exists to God, and if He changed His mind, no one else would be any the wiser.
KurtCobain198666 4 days ago
@hldemi You're also assuming that the future dictates God, and God dictates the future. The future doesn't show God what He will do, God reveals His future plan to others, hence Biblical Prophets. The Bible makes it very clear that while God knows mans future, He can edit that future, since mans future does not determine God. There's many points where God changes a mans future, Moses for example. Does that change God's 'future'? No, as stated God exists outside time.
KurtCobain198666 4 days ago
@hldemi How do we know God exists outside time? Under the assumption for a moment that God is real, we must assume He has always existed. Yet Genesis starts with 'In the beginning God created...' which mean God was already their before the beginning, and He created time. If God created time with a starting point, then He must exist outside time, or He would have to creat Himself first. Since God is infinite and omni present, He cannot be contained in time. I think that's pretty logical.
KurtCobain198666 4 days ago
@KurtCobain198666 Well if god is all knowing that means that He knows already every his decision ... He cannot change his mind for He already knows that He would do that . It doesnt matter if the time and space dimension is involved . That is the paradox of all-knowing and omnipotent God . He cannot change his mind . If He can then He does not know everything . How can a god change mans future when the mere change is the future ?? Its absurd . Future means something that will happen .
hldemi 4 days ago
@hldemi I think you're getting lost in your own logic. The defintion of future is not what 'will happen' is just means 'The time or a period of time following the moment of speaking or writing;' If God changes His mind, He still knows the outcome of that change. If God knows the decision He will make, but doesn't like the outcome, why can't He change His mind? Since God exists outside time, why can't He change Hs mind? Would we know if He did?
KurtCobain198666 4 days ago
@KurtCobain198666 Im not lost , we are just thinking differently . Whats the difference between what will happen and period of time following the moment in which something will happen? In order to make a distinction you need to prove that one can act outside of time which you cannot do . If god knows the outcome of the change why He did not make the right decision first time . Why need to change a mind. Why make an decision which outcome you dont like if you know the outome even before deciding
hldemi 4 days ago
@hldemi Name one place in the Bible where God didn't make the right decision? I understand it can be complexing, like if God knew man would pick the fruit, why put it their? But God is all powerful, and all knowing. If you state that God 'cannot' do something, then He stiops being God by definition. I've already shown you a Bible quote that God acts outside of time. God created time, for God to create time, He must've existed before it, and still exists outside it.
KurtCobain198666 4 days ago
@KurtCobain198666 The whole bible is the bad decision from my point of view . If i state that god cannot do something then He stops being god by definition . Hm I can state many paradoxes of such god . Can god make a rock that he canot lift ? Is god merciful and just ?? He cannot be both since mercy is a suspension of the justice ... Can He made another one of himself . If He can then He can me made ... All-powerful and all-knowing is self refuting statement .
hldemi 4 days ago
@hldemi Also can god be brave ? For to be brave one must experioence fear . One that is omnipotent and all knowing cannot experience fear by definition of fear ...
hldemi 4 days ago
@hldemi Using the Biblical definition of God, and an example from the Bible- give me a passage that states God cannot change His mind. We know God can stop being 'all knowing' because when He came Jesus He 'emptied Himself.' But since God is infinite, there was still the all powerful Father in Heaven. This demonstrates His infinite power, where as you're giving quite a weak example of a 'semi' powerful God. So please use the Bible to prove God cannot change His mind...
KurtCobain198666 4 days ago
@KurtCobain198666 Why would I have to use the bible ? I was not using necessarily biblical definition of a god.Every holy scripture has the same omnipotent all knowing definition. Its all the same bullshit.If he knows everything He by definition can not change his mind for that would do only someone who figures that he made a mistake first time which got him to te situation to change a mind . The god who knows everything cannot got in such situation by definition on allknowing.That is the fact
hldemi 4 days ago
@hldemi How can you prove that God has never changed His mind? If God changed His mind, we wouldn't know, because as i've stated God exists outside time and can change time. For example all men were going to Hell, because we're born sinners. God sens the Word and along comes Salvation- God changed the outcome of time. Can you give a Biblical quote that states definatly that God cannot change His mind. I can give an example of God changing His mind if you like? (cont next post)
KurtCobain198666 4 days ago
@KurtCobain198666 I cannot prove and neither can you.Quoting some biblical lines does not interest me since I do not consider them a valid argument.From a scientific point of view It has not been proven that something can act ouside of time.From a philosophical argument about all-knowing omnipotent god it stands that such a god cannot change his mind since why would the need for change appear if He already knows everything.We change mind only when we think that we are wrong.How can god be wrong?
hldemi 4 days ago
@hldemi
Interesting conversation. Although the fact, that a being which knows everything in the present and everything thats about to happen can not change his mind, is pretty obvious. I dont really understand why you keep arguing with KurtCobain198666, its a rookie youtube mistake : )
eyk234 4 days ago
@eyk234 Glad that you share my path of logic . Well I argue obviously for the same of argument as Christopher Hitchens once said ... Its a nice feeling and it helps me to improve my arguing skills . Cheers
hldemi 4 days ago
@hldemi *sake
hldemi 4 days ago
@hldemi Haha thats right, cant argue against Hitchens' quotes ;)
Still, at some point I simply stopped arguing with Christians it's too depressing talking to people that generally refuse logical thinking...but i don't blame them (most of them), if i had experienced years of living in a religious social environment i'd probably be the same. It is impossible for me to imagine how hard it has to be to accept that all you have believed in for so long is simply wrong.
eyk234 4 days ago 17
@eyk234 Heh agreed though I dont think that what wasnt reasoned into existence cant be reasoned out . It may be hard and it may be impossible in some cases . But when arguing on you tube , one has to bear in mind that a lot of people are reading this . Many of them are on the fence and your good arguments can help them in many ways . So keep on arguing :D
hldemi 4 days ago
@eyk234 Who are you to say its's wrong? Who is anyone to say anything is wrong?
CozmictheWolf 2 days ago
@eyk234 Exactly!
It took me a long time to realize that, but you're right. When the light of reality breaches that wall of ignorance, the mind begins to tremble at the realization that everything, EVERYTHING, one has been framing one's life with is utter bullshit.
And for some, that is just ... impossible to do. Way too much has been invested to just throw it away and the very thought of doing so is too frightening.
It is really tragic, and it makes me despise religion even more.
Krocotto 2 days ago
@hldemi Exo 32:9-10 states God is 'fed up' with Israels childish moaning, and said He will destroy them. Would God have destroyed them? Yes, so why didn't He? Because Moses pleads Him not to- God changes His mind. It's not that Moses can control God, but rather that Moses incited God's compassion. Intervention can change God's mind- we're all sinners, Jesus interceds, anyone can be forgiven if they accept Jesus- God's mind changes but never for no particular reason.
KurtCobain198666 4 days ago
@KurtCobain198666 So god didnt know that the Moses will plead him no to kill those people nad that he will do it in such way in order to provoke gods compassion ? Its absurd for all-knowing God .
hldemi 4 days ago
I don't see any problem here. God may exist and have free will because there is no warranty that the Universe follows the laws of logic.
nikotina2003 4 days ago
yeah right, like who shakes there matchs out. who cares lol
uniforma69h 4 days ago
Randomness ≠ free will.
PaladinswordSaurfang 5 days ago
Christian philosopher? Isn't that an oxymoron?
PaladinswordSaurfang 5 days ago
fuck dr. craig, stop shouting you ignoramus!
wowzabowza123 5 days ago
you stretch things too much, with your logic I could prove that cannibalism is more sustainable and nutritional than red and white meat pumped up with growth hormones and antibiotics.
FotoKadr 5 days ago
@FotoKadr
Except after a while the human body rejects the meat of its own, and excessive cannibalism can lead to certain health issues.
noregrets92 5 days ago
speak up y is u quiet
OHanswerME4Hamlet20 5 days ago
@burkerow I think we disagree on what constitutes "free will". I define it as the ability to make choices, but I'm not sure what your definition is if neither caused nor uncaused decisions qualify.
Nulono 5 days ago
Not sure I understand the problem. So we are supposing there is a possible world A and another possible world B. Both possible worlds have, at a given time (T1), identical worldly states. Then we go on to suppose that at some future time (T2)--future in each world's timeline--the state of each world is no longer identical. Where is the logical contradiction in that? The set of worldly states at T1 are still identical (by assumption), despite the non-identical set of worldly states at T2.
johnandrew81 5 days ago
I was once demonstrated by a religious person that omnipotence presupposes omniscience and vice-versa, so you can't have it without the other.
Basically how omnipotence is defined, it also includes being able to know everything. I don't remember the other half of his argument that proves omniscience needs omnipotence.
Now as we know, omniscience and omnipotence are also mutually exclusive. That makes the christian/muslim god double-impossible.
Joaking91 5 days ago
what
BritishBullFrog88 6 days ago
You can make it simpler than that. If god is all knowing, he'll always make the "best" decision in every circumstance ... and he knows what we'll do too ... so he knows exactly what he (and we) will be doing for the rest of eternity.
beornborg1 6 days ago
God gave us the free will to believe in him or not
MejoradaDj 6 days ago
@MejoradaDj So did Jesus, and allah. And buddha, and satan, and every other god humanity invented.
But, if you don't believe, they send you to hell. That's like saying the law tells you you're free to kill a man, but then they send you to jail.
Joaking91 5 days ago
@Joaking91 free will and justice, that's what i meant
MejoradaDj 1 day ago
where was the futurama proving god has no free will part? i think i missed it
xWxHxIxTxExYx 6 days ago
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phorse 6 days ago
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phorse 6 days ago
Humans!?
bozolazic 6 days ago
The universe just invented itself and we have no purpsoe or after life, whats so hard to beleive about that?
pinball281 6 days ago 25
@pinball281 People are very scared of death and dont like the idea of ceasing to exist one day.
Honestly the thought that one day when you die you will simply not exist anymore really scares me.
You will not be able to dream, think, talk or do anything at all ever again.
Its really scary so many people prefer to think that there is an afterlife and that your life will continue in a different way after death.
Religious people are probably not as scared of dying one day as atheists are.
CyberLance26 6 days ago
@CyberLance26 I disagree with you. They fear wrath...HELL, where as atheists don't. If we cease to exist, we aren't capable to fathom existence. So death is just ultimate peace if nothing at all, or wait nothing and peace? Well I hope you know what I mean.
rooti70 6 days ago
@rooti70 Yea i know that some of them are scared that they will end up in hell but most of them probably have been mostly good in there lifes and are sure they will end up in heaven.
And in my opinion the thought that you will cease to exist when you die is really scary and it sure does not feel like the ultimate peace to me.
That you will never be able to do anything at all anymore and simply disappear feels terrifying.
Sometimes i strongly envy the people that believe in an afterlife.
CyberLance26 6 days ago
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@CyberLance26 "Religious people are not as scared of dying as atheists are."
From what authority do you make this comment? What makes you think atheists are more afraid of death than believers of an afterlife? I've been both, a believer for 30 years and a committed atheist for 25. I'm less fearful of death than when I was a Christian. An afterlife is just wishful thinking and this life is just better and more precious when you know it's the only one you have.
burkerow 6 days ago
@pinball281 there is a good reason for it
guineapiggyman 5 days ago
@pinball281 Well, God is even more problematic because you have to believe that a God (a supreme supernatural existence) would have to come out of nothing, like John Milton said: "God created himself"
genstian 4 days ago
developing the idea that this is pure fact. Thank you
reindeerscarves 6 days ago
This is not proof, in fact it's a disproven threory that was disproven long before many of you were ever born. Einstein disproved newton with the simple knowledge that light travels faster than anything else. So i.e newton's theory of gravity (which leads into this wound up clock idea) was already disproven, also with the findings of the expansion of the universe the wound up clock idea was disproven. I suggest reading einstein's theory of relativity and create a better understanding before
reindeerscarves 6 days ago
@reindeerscarves No, einstein disproved newton with the simple knowledge that lightspeed is constant no matter the frame of reference.
Joaking91 5 days ago