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  • this issue is often most misunderstood by religious fundamentalists who think that a fertilized egg is either a person or not a person. The "personhood" of the egg is actually not the issue. If I have an acorn, that acorn is in the state of 'being' an acorn. If i have a tree, that tree is in the state of 'being' a tree. If I "plant" an acorn... it isn't a tree, and yet it isn't exactly an acorn either: it's in the state of "becoming" a tree. (con't)

  • @TheSecularTheist (con't) It will wither become an acorn or perish. the same goes for sperm, egg, and fertilized egg. And if the right to become is the right by which all our other rights are predicated upon (which I think is a fair statement) then it is as least as important as the right to life, though it is not yet a person, but not merely cells either.

  • @TheSecularTheist ***it will become a "tree" or perish (lol)

  • we already fucking had the dark ages. fuck off science, christians.

  • Your vid is a favorite on Antigua and Barbuda

  • Before anyone can run for office they should be able to pass a standardize test on math,science, physics, English, and law both international and domestic. Should at least have a basic understanding of the world we expect out of high school students today. If they wake up and say I spoke to god and he told me....that should be treason God is clearly not an American but a dictator of the foreign country of Christianity

  • I think most people would agree that abortion is not a decision to be taken lightly, and the vast majority of women who have abortions have carefully considered their decision, and made their choice based on their circumstances. I can't stand those sign waving righteous idiots who have probably never been faced with such a difficult decision.

  • Pro-life activists are the people who have never had to make the painful and difficult choice to terminate a pregnancy. Many women who do so, do it because they already have children that they can barely afford. Its more important to care for the children that are already here. Pro-lifers actively prevent abortion, then ignore the needs of the children that are born.

  • @8698gil having emotional personal Babbage about a difficult choice is a hindrance not a help

  • @255ad Hunhh???

  • @8698gil I don't know what your replying to

  • just for his anti stemcell fuckery bush should be imprisoned...or shot :D

  • Woman Periods = Baby killing

    so by that logic, most woman are evil abortion muderers

  • I don't mean this in a harsh way, but do creationists realise that every time a woman has her period, a potential life is lost? Since they can't possibly fertilise, give birth to and raise all their eggs, the only solution for them that I can see, that would give them true peace of mind, is if they stopped their women ovulating. Give it one hundred years, the world just might be a better place...

  • Religion is part of human history and culture, but now that we've entered the age of science, religion has become not only obsolete but also detrimental to our progress as a species.

  • Its funny how people dont moan at the abortion of eggs or sperm from human bodies...

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  • @AtheismCentral That is an insult to the sex-having mentally disabled community.

  • @Sines314 we judge children and younger teenagers unable to consent to sexual acts, because we judge them not mentally competent to understand and make the choice

    why does not that same logic apply to the "mentally disabled"? ask your self who's more "mentally competent" a normal 14 year old girl or a grown adult with down syndrome?

  • Our government should not be funding embryonic stem cell research. That is what Bush signed. No federal dollars for it. Private companies can step up to the plate and fund all they want.

  • @extrayakster

    Okay... I guess you're free to your opinion. I personally think we should tax the shit out of all religious organizations, but hey, we can't have everything we want now can we?

  • @DiscoveringReligion wouldn't that be violating of the separation between church and state?

  • There is no Sky-Fairy and no Sky-Fairy Picnic. Let science and ethics determine our course, not some nonsense from the Dark Ages.

  • Mmmmm! Are you sure its embryonic, and not adult stem cells that are helping people? I thought they were still having trouble trying to actually do anything with embryonic stem cells, and that the adult stem cells are the ones that are actually doing anything!

  • people need to stop believing in a soul. we need to realize that, when our brain dies, we die, and will have no feelings whatsoever.

    i prefer dying over heaven :)

  • I wanted to like this video but then you had to start the converting thing again.-.- seriously, people need to understand that others don't understand these things. Like I've said before, I'm all for equality. I do not appreciate this video dissing Mr.Bush. Why can't people stop hating on each other?? This video makes it sound like it was Bush's fault. Stop playing the damn blame game. People need to get seriously mature here!

  • This is a great video!

  • Please know that it's christians that believe in persecution and disrespecting the natural rights of gays, not the republican party. The republican party is traditionally a pro rights, limited government party. Libetarians are true republicans, social conservatives are not.

  • 1 ive watched your entire series up to this one, i've found it to be very useful to me, answering many questions. i became an atheist in the 5th grade,even though i had been a sheltered child. my parents had told me that evolution was a monkey falling out of a tree who had his tail ripped off, stood up and become a man. but when they put me in public school, i learned the real theory of evolution. i couldnt see why my parents would have to lie to me if creation was true. in the 5th grade my

  • @aarontheman9196 2 father's business went under due to embezzelling from employees, & we went from being very well off, to being very poor. i saw a huge increase in my parents religious fervor, and i saw that they were clinging to religion as a comfort, and it just didnt feel right. i began having questions like were dinosaurs in the bible, how come god stopped talking to people and making miracles, and how come even though jesus said you could have anything you asked for if you just asked him

  • @aarontheman9196 3 as i aked these questions to pastors, parents and relatives, i either was scolded for doubting god, or given some bs excuse like the fossils of human ancestors were either fake, or put there by god to test our faith. when i got to high school, i had the priveledge of holding neaderthal and other hominid skulls, and i knew they were no farse. then came a period of time where my parents joined what i call a cult, the 7th day adventists, and i became incrediably shut away from

  • @aarontheman9196 4 my peers, forced to quit varsity football and wrestling in order to keep a sabbath day. they were all vegans at that church, and tried to scare me into becoming one by saying if i ate meat or broke the sabbath, id go to hell(rather their version of hell, which doesnt burn you forever). i would always just say jesus did both those things, and would ask if they thought jesus would go to hell. they would say that the human eye couldnt just appear one day as an adaptation cuz it

  • @aarontheman9196 5 was too complex, but at the same time, i was learning that thats not how the eye developed at all. or anything for that matter. i saw in school how simple flatworms had mere spots to detect light, and as animals became more advanced, so did sight. today, im a true atheist, i do not believe in any supernatural phenomena. i believe that stem cell research should continue to advance science, it would outrage me that for years science was held back because of religious beliefs.

  • @aarontheman9196 6 i see no problem with using a blastocyst, but their is one thing i do disagree with you on. i believe that certain criminals cannot be allowed to continue living for the saftey of everyone else, and i don't believe that abortion is ok. i do not call havesting stem cells from blastocysts abortion, but i do call killing a child once it begins to look human, as abortion and murder. just because i am an athiest doesnt mean i am without morals.

  • @aarontheman9196 Wow. Well welcome to open atheism. My standard of when a person is a person is at the point when brain activity begins in the fetus (around 4-6 months). Looks don't mean much to me as there are a countless variety of ways a person can look. There is however only one brain and it runs everything. Until that CPU gets going then the fetus is just a part of it's mother.

    None of us are without morals, we all just have our own version. :D

  • @TheAnubisDrake well ill just have to agree to disagree with you on that, ill have to do my own research on the brain activity thing, especially since its been recorded that baby can feel pain before that. but even if thats true, its by no means a part of the mother. in fact, sometimes when the mother and child have different bloodtypes, the mother's body begins to fight against the baby's. if you wanna talk to me more about this, message me. i have many ideas on abortion id like to share with u

  • After Moses came down with the 10 commandments he shattered the first version AND THEN HAD THE GOLDEN CALF WORSHIPPERS KILLED.

  • boah, i never understood why people made so much fun about michael j. fox. but now, i see why. his condition is terrible, and i guess, this is necessary for them to be able to deal with this.

  • A group of Canadian patients just back from Noble have reported similar results. “I can actually see what I thought were long-dead muscles forming in my feet” said Larry Vermeersch of Kenora, Ontario. “My balance is back and I’m walking without a cane. I’m a pretty hard guy to convince, but getting these two procedures together has made me a believer. I’m looking forward to the physio ahead because I can feel everything coming back.” Log on to ccsviclinic. ca for more information.

  • Other recent MS patients who have had Autologous Stem Cell Transplantation (ASCT), or stem cell therapy have posted videos and comments on YouTube v=jFQr2eqm3Cg. Log on to ccsviclinic. ca for more information.

  • This was one the best comparison of human life! stem ceel vs capital punishment!!

  • It's Donnie Darko score! Wonderful.

    Oh yeah, and great video too. And series.

  • FREE THE WEST MEMPHIS THREE!!!!

  • Thing about Cheney is; before he publicly supported the rights of his daughter he publicly was willing to deny her those rights He has always, been, and probably always be a hypocrite.

  • I watched Bush's speech about this live and I remember wanting to jump through the screen and throttle him. Listening to W. talk about ethics is like listening to Pol Pot talk about humanitarianism. Great video series! I especially like this one.

  • Beautyfull :)

  • I discovered religion long ago, and then said "What a load of ignorant BS" and then never looked back.

  • SO, JUST A QUICK QUESTION, HOW DO YOU DEFINE A CHRISTIAN? BECAUSE I AM A CHRISTIAN AND THE SHIT YOU SAY HERE, IS ASSUMING ALL CHRISTIANS ARE THE SAME....YOUR ARGUEMENT IS SO STEROTYPING, I HAVE NEVER SUPPORTED THE DEATH PENALTY!!! WHY THE HELL WOULD I, YOU ASSUME ALL CHRISTIANS ARE LIKE FUCKING ZOMBIES, WRONG!!!

  • @carmel350 If you want to shout about stereo typing. Gay people aren't evil. Atheists aren't evil. Turn to your fundamentalist and creationists and say, 'I believe in God, but the world is *not* as you say - you are disobeying the commandment, "thou shalt not bare false witness, by being dishonest to yourselves and others.'

  • @Ackers555 WHO SAID GAY PEOPLE WERE EVIL? WHO SAID ATHIEST ARE EVIL?, AGAIN STERO TYPING AND ASSUMING!

  • @carmel350 Why the big shouty caps? I'm not accusing you, I'm asking YOU to turn to those who are lying, stereotyping, Straw-maning, and stop them. At least they can't accuse you of being an atheist like me.

  • Your arguments are misunderstood straw men, and your conclusions are all wrong.

    -Subscribed.

  • I loved this one . I am pro- abortion anyway . This world is already overpopulated .

  • refusing to fund stem cell research is idiotic to say the least! the heads of state and organised religion are not in any position to counter life-saving advancement in medical science. it is this denial for curing tormenting sickness that is trully INHUMAN and utterly IMMORAL, not the other way around!!!

  • this brought i tear to my eye thank you

  • So far I have seen two of DiscoveringReligion videos and they were both Excellent ,I plan to view them all.

  • THAT IS RIGHT, BUSH THE WORST PRESIDENT WE EVER HAD !!! IGNORANT AND STUPID !!!

  • @HPGCHEMIST1 which our children and their children will be paying for his mistakes.

  • whats wrong with Michael J. Fox, is he having like a seizure? o_0

  • @7zness Michael J. Fox has a disease. I think Parkinsons or whatever. He's one of the people who could be helped or even cured by stem cell research.

  • @genobahamut1337 WHY DO WE EVEN ASK PEOPLE IF THEY WANT TO DONATE ORGANS WHEN THEY DIE? WHY NOT JUST TAKE THEM, YOU KNOW HOW MANY LIVES THEY COULD SAVE????

  • @carmel350 It probably doesn't matter to the dead person, but it does matter to the surviving friends and family who might want to protect that individual's wishes. Besides, if we're allowed to take a dead person's organs without their permission, how about someone who's dieing but not dead yet? Should we just kill that person and take their organs? Why are you even yelling about this to me anyway? If you want to donate organs, then go for it.

  • YES!!! YES!!! Brilliant!

  • George W. Bush was the WORST president the U.S. Ever has had in modern times.

    That fuck belongs in jail!

  • Seeing Michael J Fox makes me want to cry :'(

  • The fire rescue experiment opened my eyes.

  • Hahaha I loved that pro gay sign near the end, nothing better than making a point, pointing out the ridiculousness of the other side, and being clever at the same time.

  • "No human life should be exploited or extinguish for the benefit of another. Now my soldiers go to Irak and die for some reason i'm not sure but brings money for American enterprises =)"

  • Theory: Can the alzheimer could had cause by a dream that had make a person trap in one place like in a repeated status of dream from a movement he make i think that Michael J Fox was dreaming of a nitghmare and he is swimming and being chase by aligator just an-example so in the stragle somehow hes memmory remain in the same area just like the old LP/cd etc.?

  • I'm so sorry for Michael J. Fox... but it's great to see his sanity is still intact :)

  • Can't wait to go into genetic science and biotechnology.

  • subscribing

  • michael j fox is a freaking ledgend.

  • micheal j. fox is quite gittery 0-0

  • here's an interesting piece of information : a FULLY FORMED human embryo can naturally die in the womans uterus and be effortlessly re-absorbed by her body, this also sometimes happens when twins are concieved but one child is born. So by christian standards of what is a person, the woman would now be classified as a cannibal and a child eater.

  • @Zralf

    That's a great point! I never thought of it that way. Thank you. =)

  • @DiscoveringReligion Have you heard about a boy who twin brother was growing inside him because when they were conceived , both the eggs fused and the twin brother started to grow inside him using him a life supporter once he was birthed

  • love your series!!!

  • @Zralf Wow, I had no idea that could happen. Thanks for the info.

  • @Zralf BS!

  • @terceldude wow, that comment completely shut down the entire argument, you win the youtube. /endsarcasm

  • @Zralf Indeed, hahahahahaha! :D

  • @Zralf The fact that we have so much resistance to stem cell research makes me cry =( There are people dying today that could have benefitted from this...

  • @Zralf ROFL!!!

  • brilliant, just brilliant. i love how the music suits your voice so well!

  • These are some tight videos...

  • Bush can go to hell .. for real .. HELLLL!!!

  • You know the more i look at christianity the more i realize that morality increases immorality, because they think they are bettering the world they believe that immorality is acceptable for that purpose. I mean why do we have to so fervently defend what could be and have so little regard to what is?

  • Brilliant job!

  • this video is probably my favorite one of all of them, like Evid3nc3 said, that interview with Michael J Fox was so powerful. i personally know so many people against stem cell research, im glad i have some rock solid ammo against their arguments now

  • @8:05 You see how skilled Ted Haggard can be in the art of providing oral service. (^o^)

  • Christianity and capital punishment are not inconsistent.

    If it weren't for capital punishment, we would never have had Easter.

  • great series ... good job looking forward for more videos

  • Great series. By the way. I saw Ted Haggard in there... That guy is an inspiration to us all! Stem cell research = God frownyface. Secretly fucking gay prostitutes in a haze of crystal meth = Holy smiley. The spaghetti monster bless you Ted Haggard.

  • Great Job! This is definitely your best work yet. I look forward to the later episodes.

  • hence capital punishment = good ...sick priests

  • good except ...capital punishment = good , embryonic stem cell cloning and testing also =good... and masturbation is murder and makes the angels cry, better to unload on unsuspecting catholic children

  • Thanks for doing these videos.

  • Hello, this video definitally helped me on my paper over embryonic stem cell research. May I please use your information in the video to help me write the paper. (The processes of embryonic stem cell research and the controversies between it)

  • Way to rational.

  • Everyone needs to go watch Freakonomics. It came out yesterday.

    Personally, I don't want religious fanatics forcing their beliefs into my life, even more I don't want the atheist's guilt-ridden Social Gospel to touch me either. So where evolution and science connects to my life is through economics. If I want stem cells, I can have em, if you don't want em you don't have to have 'em, and no government-sponsored medical monopoly can stop us from being free. THAT'S what it's all about, MONEY.

  • VERY WELL DONE,THANK YOU FOR ALL YOUR HARD WORK,,PEACE & LOVE,,,,,,NAMISTEE

  • Bush talking ethics while he murders millions in the Middle East. Fcuk you, Dubya!

  • great series!

  • That Michael J. Fox interview was a tear jerker for sure

  • Excellent series!!

    Thank you so much for posting this.

    Keep it coming!

    -I-

  • The best of youtube video and maby the worlds video series that explains all from the theroy of evolusion to this .. i have to say you realy did help me understand it all and helped me to see that even i wasen't thought this i can not (and will not) oversee the big evidence you showed me ... .. i sub :) keep up the greate work and i realy hope to see a other new video ..

  • summing up the religious right: "Do you want dead children and hate families? No? Then vote for us."

    

  • if there is no nervous system developed yet, it does not suffer and its not unethical

    how many people feel guilty when they eat animals?

  • Excellent. The interview with Michael J Fox was profound because it had the duel purpose of exposing critics to someone who could be cured and emphasizing that the blastocysts are just being thrown away anyways (negating the pro-Life argument). The fire rescue thought experiment (save a baby or a test tube full of eggs) was brilliant as well.

  • @Evid3nc3

    Thanks a lot for commenting! I am a big fan of your series. =)

  • @DiscoveringReligion

    Glad to hear it! You are doing some compelling work here. This video in particular is one of the strongest, most complete, and most emotionally compelling arguments for stem cell research in the face of religious opposition that I have ever seen.

  • @Evid3nc3 do you realize that embryonic stem cell research has found nothing since it was allowed back.

  • @CreedChrist But it might someday in the future. Science takes time you know...

  • Your argument about the value of a fully formed life versus a potential life almost made me stand up and clap, and I'm NEVER that excited about moral debates.

  • Thank you for creating this series.

  • This is awesome! I love it!

  • I can only echo most of the people who posted their comments here: Awesome, amazingly lucid and poignant series. Gets me totally excited and hungry for more info on... eh... just about everything about this planet and us and everything else. Oh, and for the next episode, of course.

  • You should really point out that on each issue you discussed in this video (stem cell research, the death penalty and homosexuality), there are huge splits both between and within the various Christian denominations. Of course you are technically correct when you say that "many" Christians take such-and-such a position, but equally there are a huge number of Christians who oppose the death penalty (myself included) and a significant number who do not oppose stem cell research.

  • Thank you, thank you, I really enjoyed this series and look forward to future episodes. keep up the great work, truly remarkable.

  • And this is one of the many reasons, after 18 years of devotion, I am no longer a Christian. :/

  • DONNIE DARKO MUSIC YEAH! GREAT SERIOUS! HOLY SHIT! (pun intended)

  • DONNIE DARKO MUSIC YES! GREAT SERIES HOLY SHIT!

  • Can't wait for Episode 17. Keep up the good work!

  • This fine series quickly deteriorated into a regrettable anti-christian polemic with this episode. Embryonic stem cell research is more a human rights issue than a religious one - and I'm not referring to the right of a diseased or disabled person to exploit the emerging health of a developing one. You may not consider the blastocyst stage of your own development as very essential to you becoming who you are today, but it is the sine qua non of my existence and must be accorded due protections.

  • @TeliVision1000

    Yes, it was a crucial stage in your development now that you are developed. But you would rather see these unfertilized eggs be placed in the trash rather than used for research? Why not fertilize them and use these cells to help people that already EXIST? And if you feel so strongly about the sanctity of human life, lets sign a petition to outlaw ALL capital punishment, what do you say to that?

  • @DiscoveringReligion First, I am totally against capital punishment. Second, there is a glaring ontological distinction between society's perceived need to punish or protect itself from active agents of destruction and its insidious acquiescence to the destruction of budding innocent life. Third, it shows our poor regard for all things human when fertilization is undertaken for any reason but its existential intention - the propagation of the species.

  • @TeliVision1000 And last, to say that there exists warehouses full of fertilized embryos that will never be allowed to come to term is an indictment of societal and individual hubris (and capitalism), not a legitimate rationale for this crime against humanity to be further deepened and extended by utilizing them as spare parts. Your argument is false, and a non sequitur. Why, in this lone case, are not the scientific positivists confident that we can - as we must - find a better way?

  • @TeliVision1000

    Hmmm, someone has been studying their logic text book, LOL. But your melodramatic language does not excuse the facts. The embryo only matures to the point of a 50-200 cells in a petri dish. Its not like the embryo is ripped out of women so we can harvest their babies for "spare parts." We are talking about life on a cellular level -- a cell is not the same as a person. Would you call an acorn an oak tree? And these "warehouses" you speak of are called FERTILITY CLINICS. (cont…)

  • @DiscoveringReligion

    The eggs were willingly donated by women attempting to become pregnant. If the eggs arent used for research they will be thrown away. YOUR argument is a non sequitur, my friend -- this has nothing to do with "capitalism"! So, are you willing to inform a child in need of a bone marrow transplant they wont see the age of 15 because youre too concerned about the "existential intention" of cell smaller than a grain of sand? (cont...)

  • @DiscoveringReligion

    In medicine we must use the tools available to us. We test medication on animals to save HUMAN lives. Sure, it sucks for the lab rat, but thats how scientific advancements are made. Will you forgo your next prescription in protest of the fruits of medical science? You apparently seem capable of making that decision for others when it comes to stem cell research.

  • @DiscoveringReligion I do hope you see how faulty your reasoning is here. To confuse animal testing with HUMAN embryonic experimentation is either a lazy lapse in logic or a deliberate attempt to persuade through deception. Just so there is no confusion, I hold that when the 23 chromosomes derived from the nucleus of the human ovum are fused with the 23 chromosomes from the nucleus of the human sperm, life begins - a human being in process, no matter its particular stage of development.

  • @DiscoveringReligion 1. Eggs being willingly donated does not in any way legitimize what is being done with them. 2. That human embryos were developed beyond the requirements for reproduction and will consequently be 'thrown away anyway' is deplorable. You try to make it sound reasonable that we should extend the crime by making the embryo available for research and that the sick are in some perverse way 'entitled' to benefit from this tragedy. There are many other avenues of R&D available.

  • @TeliVision1000

    I was referencing the fact that in science "life" must sometimes be scarified in order to advance technology and save other lives that DO exist and are suffering. A vegan would see animal testing as a moral outrage. To them, life is life. You hold a similar, extreme view. You cannot differentiate between an egg that doesnt feel/think and a child that is needlessly suffering. Have you visited a pediatric oncology ward and seen dying children? Wheres your moral outrage for them?

  • @DiscoveringReligion You have a very cavalier attitude toward the sacrificial offering of others' lives on the altar of so-called scientific advancement - fine, as long as it wasn't your blastocyst they were destroying. Look, nothing has come from this research, and those engaged in it say the best they hope to get from it is a better understanding of disease. Don't be so disingenuous as to equate my respect for human life with ignoring the needs of the sick or disabled. Shame on you.

  • @DiscoveringReligion Please stop drawing false analogies - this is the weak link in your thinking. I don't care what a vegan thinks about animal testing. It is not in any way 'like', or analogous to what I, as a human, think about the exploitation and destruction of human embryonic life. And, in response to an earlier post, I am sorry that you are too naive to see the capitalistic concerns that are driving all of this, i.e. profit motives. (Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.)

  • @DiscoveringReligion Those are biogenetic human cells we are speaking of, and as such, constitute a necessary stage in the life of the already actualizing human person. You can detach from the reality of it if you choose, but personally, I can't bring myself to do that. A newborn is different from a teenager or adult, and has different needs and capacities. He/she, however, is not 'more' or 'less' human. This, to me, is a human rights issue. Res ipse loquitur.

  • @TeliVision1000

    For one, my life began inside my mother, not in a petri dish from a random, leftover egg donation. Furthermore, in order for any of these donated eggs to become "people" a women would have to offer up her uterus for 9 months. In the case we are discussing this is nowhere close to being a viable option. Therefore, your argument is completely baseless. How do you propose these eggs become anything other than refuse? These cell will never and can never be "actualized" lives.

  • @DiscoveringReligion

    There is no anatomical difference b/w newborns and adults. A ZYGOTE on hand lacks EVERY SINGLE developmental characteristic found in newborns. A cell is "less human" than a developed newborn. But if you want to anthropomorphize a zygote, why not take it another step back and say sperm/eggs are a "necessary stage in the life" of human beings. Then we could get on our moral high horse about men that masturbate, killing millions of sperm.

  • @DiscoveringReligion

    You called it a "tragedy" and a "crime" for the eggs donated by women to fertility clinics to go to waste. I want you think about your argument the next time you go to masturbate and reflect on how illogical you are. =)

  • @DiscoveringReligion Please think before you speak. I decried the production of unneeded 'fertilized' embryos. Now consider for a moment just how irrational your statement is. Got it yet, or do I have to spell it out for you? LOL

  • @DiscoveringReligion As a reminder, I've already presented my position that human life begins with the combination of chromosomes that takes place at fertilization. You are free to disagree with me, but you cannot sweep my arguments under the carpet or simply discard them (like your embryos) because they do not conform to your rigid ideology. There are intelligent and informed humanists who agree. In the interest of open and free thought, I just wanted to rattle the elitist cage of your dogma.

  • @DiscoveringReligion Good for you. You must be very proud. But didn't you educate me to look upon these warehouses as 'fertility' clinics, clinics that, at least in name, exist for the sole purpose of implanting these embryos within the donors' uteri? I did not think they were there to produce 'refuse', or worse even still, human embryonic victims for scientific experimentation. Your invention of straw man arguments I never made, and then proclaiming them baseless, is not getting us anywhere.

  • @TeliVision1000

    Do try to keep up with the conversation. You said:

    "...will consequently be 'thrown away anyway' is deplorable. You try to make it sound reasonable that we should extend the crime by making the embryo available for research and that the sick are in some perverse way 'entitled' to benefit from this tragedy."

    You suggested a crime had already been committed before research ever began. Therefore, by your own admission when you masturbate youre committing a "tragic crime", pfffff

  • @DiscoveringReligion

    Furthermore, how many times did I reiterate the eggs were "leftover"? Once a woman has completed her therapy, what do you think the clinic will do with the leftover eggs? Give them BACK? Of course they will throw them away. Please take your own advice and "think before you speak."

  • @DiscoveringReligion You are devolving before my eyes...'I suggested'...'by my own admission'...'masturbation'...­??? Where are you getting this stuff? Stop making things up as you go along. The crime is in the hubris of individuals who want to conceive so badly that they are willing to pay for in vitro fertilization even though it produces excess embryos that will never be permitted to come to term. Perhaps they should consider adoption as an alternative

  • @TeliVision1000

    In your words, "Do I have to spell it out for you?" Apparently I do... Sperm and eggs are homologs. If you believe it is a "crime" and a "tragedy" for a women to donate her eggs for fertility therapy, then by logic we must conclude you also believe the same about the MALE haploid cell, sperm. Eggs discarded by a fertility clinics are analogous to sperm discarded during masturbation. I'm just pointing out the flaws in your logic. I didnt make it up, I quoted you word for word.