Clive James talking in the Library: Stephen Fry 3/3

[agnesdeque]

Je le comprends très bien ,je me sens inutile .... tout le temps

[nakedmambo]

He could have just said: non-human animals are not self-reflexive.

[akurtula]

This is one of the best interview I seen. It seems as if they are not aware of the camera being switched on - both james and fry simply fantastic

[alfamilanov6]

@chrisjoneschrisjones -Thats only because anyone who has even the slightest bit of money wouldn't choose to live in a coal museum or jockoland. :)

[chrisjoneschrisjones]

he thinks britain means england=a terrible ignorant snob,england is one of the most class divided countries in europe.wales and scotland are the real classless countries with no landed gentry structure

[neonatalpenguin]

@chrisjoneschrisjones Drop the embittered anti-English routine! England isn’t a monolithic unity represented by London & the Home Counties. There are tons of culturally distinct English regions (the North East, the West Country, Lancashire, etc). Yorkshire has twice the population of Wales, but doesn’t throw its collective toys out of the pram about having a regional assembly & contrived members-only language. As for Scotland, Glasgow has one of the biggest gaps between rich and poor in the UK.

[chrisjoneschrisjones]

fry is an english snob

[Wilseyz]

Liberty and Justice for all. Liberty and Justice are inseparable.

[Wilseyz]

Liberty and Justice for all. Liberty and Justice are inseparable.

[MattUnseal]

Wow

[Real19821]

Great little interview........however a bit rushed.....not elaborated enough.

Some good pointers.

[PurushaDesa]

The 'flyover'. That's horrible. I rarely side with America's constant haranguing of 'elitists' but that really is a mark of snobbery since the 'flyover' is still the overwhelming majority of the country. Not that this is unique to America. I suppose that's the case in any country where the culture can often be dictated by the major conurbations. We certainly continue to have a very London-centric political and media culture here (hence the BBC's initiative to decentralise much of its output).

[natmanprime]

Stephen is alluding to the essential irrationality of the universe, and we must rationalize aspects of it to function, as long as we understand that it is rationalization of the irrational, not absolute.

[xSilverPhinx]

It's always a joy to hear Stephen Fry talk. Thanks for uploading this interview!

[rabbitwho]

That's a silly thing to say, animals have a sense of wonder. I think cats have an extraordinary sense of wonder. My cats stares at dust particles for hours on end. What other possible reason could there be for it?

[empressjulz]

i have to agree with you on that. apart from anything humans are the most guilty where taking the earth for granted is concerned. with animals that sense of wonder for the world is in-built. probably the closest humans came to not taking sunsets for granted were the indians and other indigenous people who realised that you take only what you need and you give back. modern man is greedy.

[johnthekeane]

Oh please! Just think about what you're saying and how patronisingly arrogant it sounds.

[blackattack100]

That is a generalisation I'd say, I think there are many individuals that see the beauty in the world.

But unfortunately you're mainly right. :/

[blackattack100]

Cause cats are bat-shit crazy

[lordkelvin1]

I feel it is a shame that this times youth, where I stand that is, has sort of this smug ignorance towards higher aspirations. The earlier generation is such an example, and it seems as if only parts of mine gets that.

Correct me if I´m wrong. I am after all only a modern north folk.

[rabbitwho]

I didn't realize I loved learning and study till I left the soul sucking place that was school. I feel like I'm only 5 years old.

[lordkelvin1]

So true :D. School is't for learning you know. It's only to keep people in place.

[natmanprime]

@rabbitwho YES.

Nothing will put you off a subject quicker than being coerced into learning it on the hour every day whether you want to or not that day...

like being given your favourite cake every day for 2 years

[rabbitwho]

@natmanprime not to mention you're being fed cake by people who hate cake! They're not even making it properly!

[natmanprime]

@rabbitwho lol I hear you now let's tell it to the children!

Don't let them suffer and become wretched

: )

[nattt23]

"Where does the depression come from? I know you've got it." Lol, I love the way he says that! 0:55!

[IllBredIllRaisedDals]

According to merriam-websterDOTcom, "classicism" means

1 a: the principles or style embodied in the literature, art, or architecture of ancient Greece and Rome b: classical scholarship c: a classical idiom or expression

2: adherence to traditional standards (as of simplicity, restraint, and proportion) that are universally and enduringly valid

[vaudevilleUK]

They're talking about the first definition

[IllBredIllRaisedDals]

I know.

The point remains: no definition of the word "classicism" refers to social classes.

Our sweet "doctor" in this thread obviously assumed that "if the first few letters are the same then it MUST refer to the same thing"--one might as well assume that butterflies are an airborne dairy product.

[vaudevilleUK]

Well put...

[wungabunga]

gagothesith, you have a basic idea of what you're talking about - no more. And you're getting angry - because you're young, probably. I'm too old and you are too easy to counter, so there'll be no more debate between us. Here's to your maturing opinions, don't shout too loud or make too many assumptions, one day another blabbermouth will embarrass you in front of some girl/guy you like.

[gagothesith]

WUNGABUNGA:

1 LEND ME YOUR WORDS: "You have a basic idea of what you're talking about", but they are INCONSISTENT WITH PRESENT-DAY REALITIES.

WUNGABUNGA:

> I'm too old

2 ... and the problem is that you STILL believe that social and economic realities which existed when you were young more than half a century ago still exist.

. . .

[gagothesith]

WUNGABUNGA:

> you are too easy to counter

3 Strangely though, you have hitherto failed or refused to provide coherent basis for your opinions. Your opinions, on the other hand, have been demolished.

WUNGABUNGA

> don't ... make too many assumptions

4 I shall gladly learn from you--that is, do so as soon as you start displaying the capacity to take your own advice.

. . .

[gagothesith]

WUNGABUNGA

> one day another blabbermouth will embarrass you

5 That blabbermouth will not be you--you have hitherto been too occupied with embarrassing yourself.

6 I shall never suffer your fate--simply because I do not share your habit of using the realities of the time of Charles Dickens to attempt to debate on present-day society and politics.

. . .

[gagothesith]

7 If you have before this been spared humiliation for your theories and habits, then that is further proof that the educated and well-off (especially those who are so due to hard work) do not spend their time--as you say--"ATTACKING THE WORKING CLASS" (and the SENILE).

There you go--YET ANOTHER one of your theories demolished.

[wungabunga]

Half a century ago? I'm thirty fucking six!

[gagothesith]

WUNGABUNGA:

> I'm thirty fucking six.

I: A fact which does not change the fact that your theories are founded on social and political realities of half a century ago.

II: .. but which makes your pet theories and your mentality BEWILDERING--

1 you were no more than 6 yrs old during the Winter of Discontent;

2 you were not born until 72yrs after the end of the Victorian era, the realities of which form the basis of the images in your mind;

. . .

[gagothesith]

3 Assuming that you learned to read at age 6 --1979/80-- how the hell could could possibly honestly believe that

> In the Uk a working class man

> can't even read the news on television

--that has not been the case in the country during the past thirty years.

[ImeldaLumos]

I found it extraordinary how he's speaking about that in England every chap is as good as the next chap, it seems quite confusing to a foreigner, in this case, Swedish. When I read your papers and so on, the class which you belongs to always must be pointed out, and that is to make a thing more existing than needed. Perhaps I look at it this way because I'm Swedish, and here the really has rubbed the attitude of 'you should not believe you are worth something' from an early age. No disrespect!

[wungabunga]

Fry appears to have wildly contradicted himself there - he does discuss the British obsession with class elsewhere in the interview. And why he has fully exchanged British and Americans' attitudes towards class I'll never know. Odd, perhaps he was trying to make a complex point on a complex issue and it got lost in the mix?

[seehispugnosedface]

the newspapers of britain do not represent or reflect british society

[wungabunga]

How is this relevant to my comments?

[gagothesith]

WUNGABUNGA:

> exchanged [sic] British and Americans' attitudes towards class

No confusion at all, I say.

1 There are social classes in Britain, yes. But there are at times a casual attitude towards it--the working class do not necessarily find it a source of embarrassment and there is nothing which prevents one from working hard to improve one's economic lot.

. . .

[gagothesith]

(Strangely, Labour and those with socialist leanings rage against the class system, seek to subsidise the working classes, but are most opposed to hardworking people not being robbed of the fruits of their own labour through excessive taxation or through restrictions on entrepreneurship.

(Equally strange, while ridiculing the working classes is not unheard of among the aristocracy, the contempt with which the former see the latter far exceeds any emotion going the other way.)

. . .

[gagothesith]

2 Conventional wisdom has it that America is not a class society.

Which flies in the face of (1) generations-old wealthy families, of (2) "new money" consumed with flaunting their wealth as well as obsessed with comparing what they have with what others don't, and of (3) every hardworking man doing it to supply one's own needs as much as he does it to acquire a higher social status which is then flaunted (see (2)).

. . .

[gagothesith]

IRONY I:

In the country with a class society, the working class do not find their lot disgraceful--they, in fact, have contempt for those born into privilege.

IRONY II:

In the country supposedly without a class society, people are obsessed with social stature--"social class" and "social stature", to-may-to and to-mah-to.

[wungabunga]

Of course there are class distinctions in the U.S. however there is a strong belief that any man can attain riches and therefore status if he tries hard enough; this is not the case in the U.K. where even if you do earn the riches you will not have the status.

[gagothesith]

> in the US ... there is a strong belief that any man

> can attain riches and therefore status if he tries hard enough;

> this is not the case in the U.K.

Rubbish!

1 The growing middle class in the UK--growing since Thatcher came in and continuing to grow under succeeding governments including Blair's and Brown's--disprove your theory.

. . .

[gagothesith]

> in the U.K. ... even if you do earn the riches

> you will not have the status

More rubbish!

2A REPEAT: In the US, social status is defined by money--even if you earned it through the lottery, by being a gyrating airhead 'singer' or a gangsta rapper.

2B In the UK--the supposed 'class society'--there is not necessarily an admiration for money. On the contrary, aristocrats are not admired for their money--they are viewed with contempt, if not ignored, by the working and middle classes.

[gagothesith]

2C In the UK, there is neither universal admiration for inheritance nor universal contempt for hard work and success. There is, however, universal contempt for the uncouth--whether uncouth without money, or uncouth flashing money.

3 In the UK, social status is not based on money (see 2B-2C). Nor have the past decades seen aristocrats gaining special privileges due to birth, or seen anyone else denied education and the rewards of education-plus-effort.

Herein lies the difference.

[wungabunga]

Well, that's a very partisan and might I say clichéd critique on traditional British socialism and certainly does not reflect the policies implemented by the current Labour party - mores the pity! And quite how you'd know the relative levels of ridicule between two such disparate classes of people I'll never know... I'd guess that the rich have little to moan about though, so why attack the working classes at all?

[gagothesith]

> partisan and clichéd critique on traditional British socialism

There you go again: ignoring and modifying realities to fit your theory.

1 "Traditional British socialism" has been out of government since Thatcher drove it out, remained dead even through Blair and much of Brown's terms--it exists now only in the backbenches.

. . .

[gagothesith]

> how [do you] know the relative levels of ridicule

> between two such disparate classes of people

2A Only wilful ignorance--or in your case a persistent habit of ignoring and modifying realities to fit your theory--could make you miss it each time you walk into a pub, or rub elbows with someone from or who used to be from the housing estates ...

. . .

[gagothesith]

Ironically, the former is open to everyone regardless of class, and the latter can be found everywhere including The City--facts which further demolish your neat little theories.

2B At the same time, any formal social event, public establishment or publicly-broadcasted interview would make one similarly privy to the opinions of those "on the other end"--believe it or not, nobody these days gathers in dark soundproof rooms plotting against other social classes.

. . .

[gagothesith]

> I'd guess that the rich have little to moan about though

3 If you know the British at all, moaning is a national pastime across all social classes.

Nonetheless, no aristocrat spends his time moaning about any grievance against the working class--you must have

confused Britain with France where the peasants actually took something from royalty.

> so why attack the working classes at all?

4 Only MALIGNANT VICTIMHOOD COMPLEX could possibly convince you of the existence of that.

[wungabunga]

Yes 'exchanged'. In America a working class man (middle class using U.S. parlance) can become President. In the Uk a working class man can't even read the news on television, or if he does he'd better lose his regional accent. I am working class and I can tell you and Fry that we are fully aware of class distinction and its limitations. Fry has got this backward in my opinion.

[gagothesith]

> In America, a working class man can become President

1 And in the UK, a grocer's daughter--yes, not son--can become PM.

Where the hell do you get the images in your head?

BROWN: son of minister, grandson of timber merchant, all success self-made

BLAIR: father an illegitimate son of actors, adopted by a shipyard worker; mother the daughter of a butcher; father worked as junior tax inspector while studying law

. . .

[gagothesith]

MAJOR: son of music-hall artiste,went to a comprehensive and had an unremarkable education, father's garden ornaments business failed, started in politics through a chance encounter with a politician on the road, studied by correspondence course, failed to even get a job as a bus conductor, worked as clerk, worked helping his father's business, once unemployed

. . .

[gagothesith]

Speaker of the House of Commons MARTIN: son of seaman and school cleaner, left school at age 15 to become sheet-metal worker, shop steward, trade unionist, started in politics as local councillor

etc etc etc

You really should quit your HABIT of concocting THEORIES FOUNDED ON IGNORANCE OF REALITIES.

[gagothesith]

> In the Uk a working class man

> can't even read the news on television

2 Are you OUTRIGHT STUPID? Or WILFULLY IGNORANT--simply INTELLECTUALLY DISHONEST?

What movies have you been watching? Have you been visiting the UK of half a century ago, if not in the time of Charles Dickens?

> if he does he'd better lose his regional accent

3 Michael Martin and countless MPs disprove your theory. Countless people in the entertainment business, in trade and in The City disprove your theory.

[gagothesith]

> we are fully aware of class distinction and its limitations

4 PARAPHRASED: I am still waiting for you to enumerate those "limitations".

And no, NON-EXISTENT SCENARIOS do not count.

> Fry has got this backward in my opinion

5 An opinion founded on NON-EXISTENT SCENARIOS is VOID OF CREDIBILITY.

[gagothesith]

PS:

I will not even bother discussing with you in detail instances in American national politics when limited educational background and being 'a hick' was brandished as weapon to discredit a candidate in a national election.

Wake up. The Class Wars are over. Welcome to the 21st Century.

[thepeoplenextdoor]

Justice is concrete? Justice is subjective, hon.

[xedra]

Stephen Fry is such a fascinating man. I could listen to him talk for days. :D

[lgnorance2all]

l could listeh to those two going on for hours great conversation from two brilliant minds....a real breath of fresh air

[Numboss]

I was just going to say exactly the same thing. Listening to these two talk is indeed a "breath of fresh air", Such intellectual stuff as this is quite rare and all I wanted was the conversation to go on for hours. I've always been a huge fan of Mr. Fry (sometimes he seems to be the very reincarnation of Oscar Wilde, which is very odd).

[SendNoSpam1]

"that's a weak analogy in favour of the Second Amendment or whatever point you wish to make."

Something you're obviously swayed, taught, influenced, indoctrinated, endorsed, persuaded and threatened to believe! less you be publicly threatened, scorned, swayed... for the opposite.

The Second Amendment:...It's not a wonder why it's the fear of the US government and the rest of the world.

[SendNoSpam1]

Arms are your "arms". As humans use their "arms" more than any other appendage to commit murder, All humans should have their "Arms" clipped at birth to insure an equal social livelihood.

[ALoveEternal]

how very african of you, you genocidal mother fucker ;)

[jismith1989]

I think you mean 'ensure'. Anyway, that's a weak analogy in favour of the Second Amendment or whatever point you wish to make.

[zcjtb43]

then why are you watching the 3rd part of an interview with him?!

[somberlight]

disrespectful? by who's standards?

[gerryiom]

Poor ald Fry, his intelligence and sense of humour is so outdated and rather tired!! what a shame!

[WJPCIII]

How can intelligence be outdated? A lot of the wisdom of ancient civilisations still applies today.

[CPGallagher89]

What an apallingly ignorant statement. He's alive using his intelligence and sense of humour at this date and would be a frontrunner for the most beloved man in England. How can he be outdated if he's stilly witty and insightful in the present.

[credenza1]

Just as important as freedom of speech is the capacity to think. How many conflicts are created by the failure of reason? Moreover, as Fry points out, the testing of ideas through empiricism removes flawed ideas. Freedom of speech is a very small prize if it merely protects inanity.

[rb306]

Extremely inspiring.

[wilsparky]

Clive james says, " Freedom of speech is a concept but justice is concrete." He is quite wrong. Freedom of speech is concrete and justice is the concept.

[vikramkrishnan]

i disagree both are concept

[wilsparky]

Well you are wrong...free speech is concrete because if you have it or not is very obvious. Now justice on the other hand isn't so obvious when you have it because it is balanced by the rights (hence justice) accorded to others.

Land owners rights for example, deny my right to walk where I wish to in my own coutry. Even if that land owner is from a foreign country, he controlls more of my country than I because of wealth alone....not just. At least one can argue about that...See?

[trynnallen]

But, by and large the reason I don't want you on my properity is that should anything happen to you I can be sued. If you give up the right to sue I will let you browse the land, but since you can not give up your right sue, I can not let you wander my land willy nilly.

[PheatherP]

Wilsparky - But where does freedom of speech stop? Obviously, you should have freedom to express your opinions without fear, but what about things like racism? In that people are expressing their own opinions about a particular people, but would you say that that is right?

There is a fine line between an opinion and an insult. How would you define that line?

Freedom of speech isn't such an obvious thing after all.

[wilsparky]

Every schoolchild in a playground is insulted during their time at school. The right to insult is the very basis of free speech. People have the right to insult me and I them. That is what freedom is. If I cannot insult others, then I don't have freedom to express my opinions about them in full. Some groups, individuals and nations should be insulted...don't you agree? Galloway said islam shouldn't be critisized...yet they have the right to kill? Weird.

[PheatherP]

I do think that some individuals/nations should be insulted, so that they can stop taking themselves so seriously.

By your argument, a racist is perfectly within their own rights. However, in the Western civilization, we claim to have freedom of speech, yet people can get fired for racism. Freedom of speech isn't a have/have not thing. There are certain things that people do that take this right too far.

The right to speak is one thing, but what of the right to not hear?

[wilsparky]

The right 'not to hear' is a nonesense. The notion of racism has become a stick to beat white people with. I prefer the term bigotry. Hutu's and Tootsies aren't racist are they? See how ridiculous it all becomes? The whole notion of racism is bigotted in itself. To criminalise racial insults is to oppress people for trivia whilst on the other hand bearded nut jobs can call for beheadings in our streets. Doesn't the Orwellian nature of that do anything inside your brain?

[PheatherP]

Of course the notion of racism is nonsense. If people were able to laugh at themselves the world would be a better place. The point that I was trying to make was that freedom of speech isn't concrete. We claim to have it, and, to a certain extent, we do. Yet, it is obvious that certain aspects of freedom of speech, such as racism, are denied to us. As I said before, it isn't simply a case of having freedom of speech versus not having it. There are many shades of grey.

[wilsparky]

The only offence that middle calss people give to me is not in their comfortable, interesting lives. It is their assumption that they have uniquely worked hard for their priviledges.

[vikramkrishnan]

well we do...

[wilsparky]

no you don't...

[wilsparky]

The truth is abundantly clear that working class people work at least, I repeat, at least as hard as they and don't get anywhere near the rewards. So, forgive me for my apparently resentful comment but Stephen Fry is lucky. I like him, I laugh at his wit but I knew guys who were day labourers who made me laugh far more than Stephen Fry ever did....for free, over a beer in a bar.

[vikramkrishnan]

hard work alone doesn't suffice... vision is important... hence the rags to riches stories....

also intellectual work is exceedingly difficult hard in a different sort of way....

[wilsparky]

You clearly have a penchant for the blindingly bleedin obvious.

we are talking about the rewards for the effort...in terms of engineering/physics we are talking about energy efficiency. I could go on to give obvious examples of people who do intellectual work for small reward but I'll leave that to you.

[haldenver]

Look closely....back shelf.....that book is a truly disgusting exposition of unnatural acts!! Outrageous stuff!

[Mullahgrrl]

Actually, Im not sure that it is illegal for individuals in the U.S.A. to own nuclear missiles.

[kutuluu]

What a brilliant man

[cheeseballhaggis]

It's so interesting to hear him (them, I suppose) talk about the differences in American and British thought processes, as well as the political ideals of the governments. [I say governments because the citizens don't necessarily have the same ideals as the official stance of the government.]

[chameleoneyes376]

Thank you for posting.

[blackcat355]

When's Stephen coming to New Jersey? hehe

Wonderful. Thank you.

[charpyrenees]

great minds of understanding and wittism working together, thankyou very much

[richie616799]

The clue is in the title. It is not an interview, it's a "talk". And unlike your good self, Mr. Fry has great respect and admiration for C.J.

[serellie]

Even if you don't agree with Stephen Fry's opinions, you cannot help but respect him for his passion, his intellect, and his wit. He is a wonder and you Britons are lucky to have him. In Canada the closest that I can think of as an equal is Rex Murphy, but he doesn't have half the charm and charisma (or fangirls) of Stephen.

[gagothesith]

SERELLIE:

> Even if you don't agree ..., you cannot help but

> respect him for his passion, his intellect, and his wit

1 It takes intellect to have the capacity to show respect even when one disagrees--something lacking in most political discussions these days.

2 Intellect is rare, wit even more so. Intellect with passion is admirable, but passion alone is not--the latter is something which any zealot or even the dumbest member of any mob has.

[yamabushi170]

Wonderful. Two razor sharp intellects presented with charm and great eloquence. Thankyou for posting this great program.

[galadriaal]

Fantastic meeting of minds - thanks for posting this.

[NYCMovieLover]

Fascinating. Thank you.