Christian Myth of the Thief on the Cross PART 1 (Death Bed Salvation) Jeff Campbell

[greigmonkpics]

Not to overtake this post but again I agree with you that this so-called sinner's prayer in word and death bed salvation by motive is most erroneous indeed. I agree with you there.I am not trying to lose your overall point with these sub points I am making to you. There is another erroneous doctrine of praying for the dead for their sins to be forgiven which is not biblical. Their reasoning is 1 Peter 3:19..But if you read you will see there is no foundation there.

[greigmonkpics]

But I get what your intention is because most people feel in purgatory even which is even worse they believe they can be forgive of there forgivable sins AFTER they die which is even MORE false in doctrine. And then those who believe they can do whatever they like in this life then when they are about to die they can give their life. So I understand what you are getting at.

[greigmonkpics]

To answer your doctrine it is simple I call sinners to repentance says the Christ not to save the righteous so that the if on the cross the thief said "remember me when you come" well this is a perfect example of a sinner coming to repentance. I would think you would endorse this scripture not try to condemn it. Quiet frankly except for the paradise being heaven part the rest sounds ludicris to me bro. For all your studying I am perplexed by your reasoning.

[ProveYourFaith]

@greigmonkpics The Thief would have not known he was coming into a kingdom. His disciples did not even know.

[greigmonkpics]

@ProveYourFaith John 12:19 "Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold the world has gone after him." so it is written. Jesus was headline news. The thief knew who he was and knew his doctrine obviously. As did many people who knew he would return and the kingdom as is written in Matthew at length. Martha knew about the resurrection and the last day and Jesus always spoke about his return as the Son of Man no secret really. Hence "remember me when you come in your kingdom".

[greigmonkpics]

@ProveYourFaith By the way the account should be read from Luke 23:39-43. No one said the thief on the cross was righteous in fact if you read properly you will see he was saying he was delivered due justice for his evil work. So again no one said he was righteous. a very important point. He was given righteousness because he believe Christ to be righteous and being punished unjustly. Again like the roman centurian. The point is sinners and gentiles: the least likely.

[carlsonap16]

i agree with you that death bed conversion is a lie. I accept however the story of the two thieves on the cross, but only one of them condemned the Messiah. the other one had already been saved.

[BibleTranslation]

PART 22: HE QUOTE MARK 15:27 AGAIN: And with him they crucified two robbers, one on his right and one on his left.

HE SAYS: You see, none were righteous.

RESPONSE: Again, what is said in Mark is based on what they were put up there fore, what is said in Luke is based on the one repenting of his position, and trusting in Jesus as the Christ. Two different contexts.

[ProveYourFaith]

@BibleTranslation Luke calls them evil doers which is a transgressor.

[BibleTranslation]

@ProveYourFaith What verse? I see them being called criminals, not evildoers. However, even if he did, what is your point? It does not negate the context. Luke, the physician informs us of one who repents, and Mark does not. Like all accounts that are relayed to different audiences, the person giving the account will do so based on the audience, the writer's personality and the points that they wish to make, all within the parameters of giving what they are inspired to give.

[BibleTranslation]

PART 21: Hence this explanation would say that two malefactors were crucified at the same time as Jesus, one of whom scoffed and one who believed Jesus, and that later two thieves were brought and crucified, both of whom taunted Jesus. This would mean there were two crucified on each side of Jesus, or a total of five crucified in a row. 

[ProveYourFaith]

@BibleTranslation I will do a video refuting this position as well.

[BibleTranslation]

@ProveYourFaith Might I recommend that you get the following books:

The Big Book of Bible Difficulties: Clear and Concise Answers from Genesis to Revelation By Norman L. Geisler

New International Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties

By Gleason L. Archer Jr.

Hard Sayings of the Bible (Hard Sayings Series the Hard Sayings)

By Walter C. Kaiser Jr.

YOUR GUIDE FOR DEFENDING THE BIBLE Self-Education of the Bible Made Easy By Edward D. Andrews

[BibleTranslation]

PART 20: Then these two newcomers joined with the priests and people in railing at Jesus. (Matt. 27:35-44) But from Luke’s account it appears that the two malefactors were “led with him to be put to death” and that when this trio arrived at Calvary “there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left”. One of these malefactors scoffed at Jesus, the other believed in Jesus and the kingdom. (Luke 23:32-43)

[BibleTranslation]

PART 19: RESPONSE: There may have been four others crucified with Jesus, two on each side. Matthew uses a Greek word translated “thieves” [lestai], whereas Luke uses a different Greek word [kakourgoi], which is translated “malefactors”. From Matthew’s account it appears that Jesus had already been crucified, and lots had been cast for his garment, and a sign posted over his head, by the time the two thieves were brought up and crucified with him.

[BibleTranslation]

PART 18: HE QUOTES MARK 15:27: And with him they crucified two robbers, one on his right and one on his left.

HE SAYS: He exclaims, there you go two thieves, not three, not four!

[BibleTranslation]

PART 17: RESPONSE: First, all details cannot be given of what the thief did or did not do, it was about Jesus, and other parts were included based on the point the writer wanted to focus on. We cannot be sure of Jesus’ motives for saying this, his words may indicate that Jesus recognized that God had taken His protection away so that His Son’s integrity could be fully tested. It is also possible that Jesus said this because he wanted to fulfill what Psalm 22:1 foretold regarding him.

[BibleTranslation]

PART 16: HE SAYS: That it is absurd that Jesus says, you are absurd, and then later cries out, 'why have you forsaken me,' which would certainly have caused the thief to doubt again.

[BibleTranslation]

PART 15: RESPONSE: Really, and you base that one what? Jesus had been given the authority to judge all by the Father. You say it is a fact, and yet give no evidence for your fact, just opinion.

John 5:26-27 English Standard Version (ESV)

26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man.

[ProveYourFaith]

@BibleTranslation Jesus had no authority till he was resurrected! He said he was not there to judge. It was not till he was risen that he had all power.

[BibleTranslation]

@ProveYourFaith PART 1: Give me a Bible verse that says Jesus had no authority until he was resurrected. Se you are doing an absolute statement here which is self defeating. If he had no authority, the Jewish religious leaders would have left him alone. He raised Lazarus from the dead, and healed numerous people, which expresses authority and power. You need to back away from the absolute of "no," and go with limited authority. He judged Lazarus, and he judged the wicked religious leaders.

[BibleTranslation]

@ProveYourFaith Jesus is the person sent ahead of Israel at Ex 23:20-23 (the angel of the LORD) and this is long before the resurrection. This angel had the power to forgive or not forgive sins (transgressions). He also had authority to speak teachings and commands that were to be obeyed. There is only one person in Scripture that has been given the authority to forgive sins. This would be Jesus, listen to his words to a paralytic, "your sins are forgiven." (Matt 9:2-6)

[BibleTranslation]

@ProveYourFaith PART 2: Jesus is the person sent ahead of Israel at Ex 23:20-23 (the angel of the LORD) and this is long before the resurrection. This angel had the power to forgive or not forgive sins (transgressions). He also had authority to speak teachings and commands that were to be obeyed. There is only one person in Scripture that has been given the authority to forgive sins. This would be Jesus, listen to his words to a paralytic, "your sins are forgiven." (Matt 9:2-6)

[BibleTranslation]

PART 14: RESPONSE: Well, sorry, but that is complete speculation, and taking Scriptures from somewhere else, out of context, to get the meaning you are looking for. Jesus statement is made in the throws of expiring on the cross. That is the context, try and stick with it.

HE SAYS: Jesus is forsaken by the Father, so he is not going to have any idea who is going to be saved. He says to tell the man that he will be in paradise is absurd. He says he cannot tell this man he would be saved, a fact!

[BibleTranslation]

PART 13: It is the same with the four Gospel accounts of Jesus’ ministry, as well as with other historical events reported by more than one Bible writer. Each writer wrote accurate information even when one retained details that another omitted.

HE QUOTES MARK AND SAYS: He says, as Jesus was calling out to his God, why have you forsaken me, this guy claims the forsaken would have taken place prior to the execution, because the angels let the Roman troops beat him.

[BibleTranslation]

PART 12: HE QUOTES MATT 27:45-50 AND SAYS: That all the thieves condemned Jesus, which contradicts Luke.

RESPONSE: Have you ever heard two people describe an event that they both witnessed? If so, did you notice that each person emphasized details that impressed him? One may have left out things that the other included. Both, however, were telling the truth.

[BibleTranslation]

PART 11: RESPONSE: Hello, of course that is what he is being executed for. If the Jewish religious would have went to Pilate saying he claims to be God, a theological point, they would have been kicked out. So, they were saying he claimed to be a King, which would have been against Roman law, and worthy of execution. Why the Jews wanted him executed is a far cry from why the Roman were executing him. He needs to read the whole gospels.

[BibleTranslation]

PART 10: HE QUOTES MATTHEW 27:42-43: "He saved others; he cannot save himself. He is the King of Israel; let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him. For he said, 'I am the Son of God.'" And the robbers who were crucified with him also reviled him in the same way.

HE SAYS: He says that Jesus is being crucified for being the King of Israel, not for claiming to be God.

[BibleTranslation]

PART 9: RESPONSE: He does not know anything about interpretation. What on earth does the Roman Catholic Church of 600 years later have to do with this? Is it because they have the name "Roman" in the title? Really? And the Roman were not innocent of wrongdoing, but they were ignorant of things, unlike the Jewish religious leaders.

HE SAYS: These are the holy Romans right? with sarcasm

RESPONSE: No, you are about 600 years to early for that.

[BibleTranslation]

PART 8: HE QUOTES: (23:44-47) and there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour, while the sun’s light failed. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!" And having said this he breathed his last. Now when the centurion saw what had taken place, he praised God, saying, "Certainly this man was innocent!" HE SAYS: He starts talking about the Catholic Church and the Romans innocence.

[BibleTranslation]

PART 7: HE QUOTES: (vs 43) "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise." (44) It was now about the sixth hour,[noon] and there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour, [3 p.m.] (45) while the sun’s light failed. / He is saying these things were not done until after the third hour. He then says, after the third hour, everyone being executed came against Jesus. And just before the 6th hour one of them changed his position. He finds this difficult to understand.

[BibleTranslation]

PART 6: This thief would have known of Jesus and the claims that he was the long awaited Messiah, but probably thought the Kingdom would was to be set up by destroying the Roman government. Whatever happened those first few hours on the cross would have moved this thief to exercise faith that the stories of Jesus must be true. Not to mention the sign above Jesus says, "king of the Jews."

[BibleTranslation]

PART 5: Luke 3:15 says, "the people were in expectation, and all were questioning in their hearts concerning John, whether he might be the Christ." What the people did not understand was just how he was going to set up the kingdom. They believed it would be by squashing the oppressive Roman government and setting up an earthly kingdom in Jerusalem. Jesus was a well known figure in Jerusalem and Judea, and his 3.5 year ministry would have had him be known by everyone.

[BibleTranslation]

PART 4: HE QUOTE: the sinner said "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." Now, he argues that the disciples who had been with Jesus for 3.5 years did not understand the kingdom, yet this sinner, just meeting him does know.

RESPONSE: The disciples knew about the Kingdom, as all Jews did, because they awaited the Messiah (Christ) to set such a kingdom up. In fact, just before Jesus arrival, the people were in expectation of the Messiah.

[BibleTranslation]

PART 3: HE QUOTE VERSE 40: "the other rebuked him, saying, 'Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?'" Then, he says 'why would he say such a thing, otherwise he would not be a thief.'

RESPONSE: He is acting like these comments came quickly. They had been up their for some time. In time, one of the robbers comes to appreciate that Jesus truly must be a king.

[BibleTranslation]

PART 2: HE SAID: He denies it because of his belief in that there is no such thing as death bed salvation.

RESPONSE: Generally speaking there is no death bed salvation, but it is eisegesis (into) to read your beliefs into the text. We are suppose to do exegesis (out of, from), take our beliefs out of the text. If someone has exercised true faith in Christ, he can read hearts, and know if that person would have been receptive to the gospel had he heard it, so he can do what he did.

[BibleTranslation]

PART 1: HE SAID: I do not know when it became a forgery, but I know it is a forgery.

RESPONSE: Well, this does not bode well in the first few seconds of the video.

[EWETUBER2]

Here's THE serious charge your facing and probably don't know it..

You're presenting yourself to people as if you're speaking on behalf of GOD..who has not given you the "authority" to do so ( proved by what you are saying )..Please read about your possible fate in Matthew 7:15,23. Just because you mouth some verses from scripture and say Jesus a few times..does NOT mean you are his..nor does it mean you are authorized to speak on his behalf. Care should be taken by you now..now U know..!

[EWETUBER2]

Let me get this straight..?

Basically..you pick and choose out from scripture the parts that you like or that "fit" your agenda..and then you present it as if it's the truth.? You claim something isn't true from scripture..but you then go on to present ZERO evidence to support your claims..then you somehow want people to "buy it"..from you as if it's the truth..? Why..? Because you did NOT research it all out..?

LOL..I have a question 4U..What color is the sky in your world..?

[TruthAtlas]

You didn't really address the argument that the Bible is true and that there were 4 criminals - not 1, 2, or 3. Did you research that view? At least let others know about it, unlike many if not all Trinitarians who only give their interpretation.

[ProveYourFaith]

@TruthAtlas Yes I did. (Mar 15:32 KJV) Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

All came against him ALL.

[TruthAtlas]

@ProveYourFaith I'm not sure you've researched this view in detail. Yes, the first two reviled him, but there were 2 more added later after the guards had played dice for his clothes.

[ProveYourFaith]

@TruthAtlas What? Where in scripture is that? I read all accounts and nothing on that.

[TruthAtlas]

@ProveYourFaith Where does the Bible say that the story was a forgery? We are both coming up with theories to explain a confusing account of the crucifixion. John 19:18 would support this view. because if you look in the greek there is no "one."

[ProveYourFaith]

@TruthAtlas said "We are both coming up with theories to explain a confusing account of the crucifixion." No, I am fixing the contradiction not confusion. I know it is hard for people to accept they have for the longest time put their trust in death bed salvation.

[TruthAtlas]

@ProveYourFaith First of all the 4 person explanation doesn't include deathbed salvation (or at least radical conversion at the time of death) all it does is explain the data in a way where all Scripture is still true and not forged from the fires of morons. It does show that a criminal can still be saved eternally. You don't have to be a "good" person to be saved. And you are fixing one problem, but creating more by saying it's a forgery. The four person explanation works best with the data.

[dunklaw]

@ProveYourFaith

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