Phil Johnson seems oblivious that many of the early church fathers had very similar beliefs to Bell. It's worth noting that Bell never endorses the view that all will be saves. He does say that we can legitimately hope that all may be saved. This is a position very similar to the early church fathers, particularly the Eastern Fathers. It's a view shared by the Eastern Orthodox Church. Read Kallistos Ware's book on the Orthodox Church. CS Lewis too does not think that hell is a literal place....
@brendos444 evidently the Phil Johnson has unwittingly picked up medieval Catholic notions of hell that was crystalized during the Reformation. It's also very much worth noting that penal substitutionary atonement was NOT endorsed by ANY church father within the first 4 centuries of the Christian era! And later fathers that speak of substitutionary atonement DO NOT mean what Phil Johnson thinks it means!! Go back and read church history evangelicals.. you might actually get some wisdom!!!!
I'm personally hoping that the decline of the U.S. as the dominant power in the world will also reduce it's influence over Christendom. I think America and Rome (but America particularly) are the last great bastions of error in Christendom. Christianity needs to look East and towards England and the Anglican communion for reasonable Christianity. I'm hoping that Orthodox and Anglican communions can take the lead regarding asserting the truth of the gospel, not idolatrous notions found in America
@truth96130 Actually you don't know your rear end from a hole in the ground because there IS a word that means that very thing and it IS used in God's word but we both know that since you are a lying, carnal minded servant of the devil that you will not listen but that's ok as long as others do listen and ignore the likes of you and your filthy, stinking ilk.
@truth96130 Well there's a lot of things that you don't "know" that are written in the bible and padrt of that reason is that you are dead in your sins and you worship a figment of your carnal mind that is worthless and powerless.
@truth96130 Incidentally liar, I don't need your "forgiveness" because I have not said anything "bad" according to God. Now what I have said may be "bad" according to you but you are NOBODY and your opinion is as valuable as a steaming pile of fresh dung.
@truth96130 I have several more exegetical examples but we both know that you don't want to hear it because it conflicts with your man made religion. Since you are a NOBODY then I could not care less that you believe this, I just care that true believers do.
BTW, your fogiveness is of no worth or value to me. If you're offended then take it up with God.
@truth96130 I also have some great exegetical examples of Aion and Aionos used to describe something that begins but has no end either.
Yes you do not know Rear end (ass) from a hole in a ground. That's an expression used to describe stupid people such as yourself. Incidentally fool this is how to PROPERLY SPELL L-Y-I-N-G, not lieing. Moron!
@386ABC Again, you can't take one or two texts out of context and make a theology out of it. There are so many other scriptures where Jesus Himself talked about hell and eternal punishment; do you not read them? And what scripture says unbelievers will be forgiven without trusting Jesus as Savior? I just pray you will read the Bible in context and trust Christ for forgiveness. If you wish to reply, that is fine, but I do not believe your belief; read your Bible in context.
This is a good sermon and well done by Phil Johnson. I've read some of the comments and I find that most that disagree with Phil give their opinions more than scripture. Proverbs 3:5-7 warns against that. Our sinful views can't explain God; God reveals Himself in the Bible. Rob Bell's teachings are heretical and dangerous because a Bible teacher should give solid answers (1Peter 3:15, 2Timothy 2:15, 4:1-5, Ephesians 4:11-14), not questions to raise doubts and promote relativism.
@386ABC In addition, to concentrate on only God's attribute of love and deny His other attributes of holiness, righteousness, truth, justice, takes away from His grace, mercy, and His love. I pray that you will study the Word of God for what it is and not believe false doctrines that teach that God loves everyone without judging sin, since Romans 3:9-19 shows we are sinners "that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God." (Verse19) I pray you seek the truth.
@386ABC Phil Johnson is only attacking false teaching, which the Bible constantly does. If someone professes to be a believer but teaches false doctrines, it must be called out, no matter how "sincere" that teacher is. Read 2Peter 2, 1John 4:1, 2John 7-10, the book of Jude, 2Timothy 4:1-5, Romans 16:17-19, and Galatians 1:6-10 to name a few scriptures that warn us against false doctrine. And we are called to judge rightly, because what you say and do shows your heart. (Matthew 15:18-20)
@386ABC Phil Johnson is only attacking false teaching, which the Bible constantly does. If someone professes to be a believer but teaches false doctrines, it must be called out, no matter how "sincere" that teacher is. Read 2Peter 2, 1John 4:1, 2John 7-10, the book of Jude, 2Timothy 4:1-5, Romans 16:17-19, and Galatians 1:6-10 to name a few scriptures that warn us against false doctrine. And we are called to judge rightly, because what you say and do shows your heart. (Matthew 15:18-20)
A lot of Christians are confused, because of the many false teachers who claim they know Gods word. You people who believe in hell, forget that the teachings of Christ were spoken only to Jews. If Christ was warning about hell, He neglected to teach the gentiles there to save them too. Or maybe His teaching meant something else. I know they do.
Eternal punishment or eternal punishing? The mindset of the evangelical community is perplexing. It’s almost as if they need hell to be real so as to hold their heads above the heathen. What’s wrong with Yahweh simply imposing a “lights out” sentence on His opposition? That’s simply to say, you opposed Me throughout your life, so now you’ll cease to exist in any way shape or form throughout eternity. Dust to dust, ashes to ashes.
@ergo375 It's wrong because it's not biblical. The bible talks about hell a lot and it's not just "lights out", it's an eternal suffering. If your spirit will just cease to exist as a result of sin, why did Jesus have to suffer and die so you get saved from that? Hell is for real and it's meant for those who have to pay for their sins.
1 Cor 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. The Devil creates confusion. Hell is real. God gave us Free Will. Thus we can choose to accept Jesus as our Saviour and have eternal life with Jesus Christ; or not and end up in hell and the Lake of Fire.
1 Cor 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
The Devil creates confusion. Follow God's Word not mans. Hell is real. God gave us Free Will. Thus we can choose to accept Jesus as our Saviour and have eternal life with Jesus Christ; or not and end up in hell and the Lake of Fire.
Rob bell is trying to get people to think and he is right to do so. He has made his positions known in other videos. There is no such thing as Holy terror. There is a healthy fear of God because God is just and will punish sin. Not sinners - sin! He sent his son to separate us from sin. So Christ became sin for us, that such justice would not fall on us. Jesus is no mere substitute he is life itself.
Is an eternal punishment just? The mechanics behind the phrase "eternal punishment" is self-contradicting. And the Law the Creator instilled is one that is measurable (An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth). What is measurable about eternity? We do not set the Law but we do know the Law because it is written on our Hearts. If our sense of justice is different than God's then how could Paul have said "even unbelievers are a law unto themselves?"
Man was made to live forever, thus the penalty for sin is eternal death.
The Bible suggests, however, the degrees of punishment differ depending on different sins.
The Bible does not reveal more than that. We'd better not sin. It is impossible for men not sinning. God knew this and He Himself came down from heaven to die on our behalf. Isn't that amazing love? What more do you need?
If God does something unjust would that make it just?
Romans 6:23 doesn't say anything about an eternal death... And since when is the penalty based on the design of the creature? I thought it was based on the offense (an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, not an eternity for an eye and an eternity for a tooth).
That aside, what is just about an eternal punishment for a finite offense(s)?
If God does something unjust, then the one who does it is NOT God.
Sin murders the eternal life; thus the requires eternal punishment.
Tell me more what the Bible reveals regarding eternal punishment. Roman 6:23 says: "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
For me, this is more than enough. It shows the WAY avoiding that eternal punishment.
would you mind adding me as a friend so I can message you? 400 characters is a little light for such a heavy subject and multiple responses is too tedious. Hope you don't mind
uh oh, Johnson goes to the opposite error, recommending mortal terror, holy terror, he calls it.
so much for hoping for balanced preaching. let him roast in the agony of "holy" terror for as long as I have and if it does not destroy him he will know such is unbelief and as much sin as bells denying of hell
I bet there were people saying the same to Jeremiah, or Elijah, etc, etc... Biblically, God never really called men to intercede - I say he leaves that up to you and me.
IF I don't like it? I don't recall saying I didn't like anything in this video. Jesus didn't bash peoples doctrines, He did however call them out on the issues of their hearts. If Bell thinks God's Love is big enough to reach even to the depths of hell (call it delusional if you will) Bell isn't denying the cross just mainstream beliefs and that is what people don't.
I don't bash Calvinism although I may not agree it really doesn't matter. We will give an account for ourselves not others.
LOL.... Please show me in scripture where Jesus does an extensive exegesis on their teachings. Jesus warns them to stop hiding behind a false image of Godliness.
@gsixty Most people who say they don't agree with Calvinism can't distinguish Historic Calvinism from the many flavors of Hyper-Calvinism. For insight & clarity, I recommend Phil Johnson's article "A Primer on Hyper-Calvinism" at his C. H. Spurgeon archive - spurgeon(dot)org.
I was an Arminian for 40 years. Boy was I wrong to think that I could "make a decision" to come to Christ. He chooses us, not the other way around.
@gsixty "And we know that GOD CAUSES all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are CALLED according to HIS purpose. For those whom HE FOREKNEW, HE ALSO PREDESTINED to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom HE PREDESTINED, HE ALSO CALLED; and these whom HE CALLED, HE ALSO JUSTIFIED; and these whom HE JUSTIFIED, HE ALSO GLORIFIED." Rom 8:28-30 - the "Golden Chain of Redemption."
@gsixty >"We are glorified?" Yes. Glorification means taken to heaven upon our death. It is the completion of the Golden Chain of Redemption. And in between the time of justification & glorification, the Holy Spirit moves in us to sanctify us, making us more & more like Christ. (Sanctification.)
@gsixty Free will is limited by our fallen nature. "But a NATURAL man does NOT accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; & he CANNOT understand them, because they are spiritually appraised." 1 Cor 2:14 But the sinner's inability doesn't negate his RESPONSibility to obey God, since it's man's own sin that caused his inability. God is the author & finisher of our faith, which comes by hearing & hearing by the word of Christ so we have a duty to RESPOND.
@gsixty >"Can one not deny Christ even if he is chosen of God?" NOT deny Christ? EVEN if he's chosen by God? Not sure if that's what you mean. "ALL that the Father GIVES to Me (Jesus) will come and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." Jn 6:37
Do you question "once saved, always saved?" Is that what you mean? Can one DENY Christ even if he's chosen by God (omitting "not")? If so, read 1 Jn 2:19. These are false converts, never chosen, but "made a decision."
@gsixty >"Can one not deny Christ even if he is chosen of God?" NOT deny Christ? EVEN if he's chosen by God? Not sure if that's what you mean. "ALL that the Father GIVES to Me (Jesus) will come and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." Jn 6:37
@gsixty >"Can one NOT deny Christ even if he is chosen of God?"
Do you question "once saved, always saved?" Is that what you mean? Can one DENY Christ even if he's chosen by God (omitting the word "not" before the word "deny")? If so, read 1 Jn 2:19. These are false converts, never chosen by God in the first place, but "made a decision" of their own. This happens as a result in the false Arminian belief that man can choose. Man can ONLY RESPOND to God's EFFECTUAL call.
@gsixty@gsixty >"Can one NOT deny Christ even if he is chosen of God?"
Do you question "once saved, always saved?" Is that what you mean? Can one DENY Christ AFTER if he's chosen by God (omitting the word "not" before the word "deny")? If so, read 1 Jn 2:19. These are false converts, never chosen by God in the first place, but "made a decision" of their own. This happens as a result in the false Arminian belief that man can choose. He then falls away. Man can ONLY RESPOND.
Man can't choose? Can man chose to respond or we only respond. When you eat something you can respond in many different ways. two being like or dislike... this is called choice...
@gsixty How many millions of people deny Christ in their heart, even though God planted the knowledge of Him inside them? The heavens tell the glory of God, & day after day, night after night, they pour forth speech. This is the general call to all men, just as is the preaching of the Word. But does the unbeliever "get it?" Can a blind man see or a deaf man hear? God must FIRST lift the veil, give the blind man sight, & the deaf man ears to hear. This is God's effectual call & they respond.
@gsixty Sorry, but it's late & my internet pages here are getting stuck - freezing or slowly loading. Time for bed. Catch you later. If you have time, watch the videos I recommended. Good night & God bless.
@gsixty Hey....before I go... I'm going to send you a PM with an explanation of the Monergistic (Calvin) vs. Synergystic (Arminius) viewpoints. Maybe it will help. Goodnight.
@gsixty I like to use the story of Lazarus to demonstrate how it is God revives us to new life (born again). Upon hearing that Lazarus was sick, Jesus waited a few days before going to him...He was getting ready to perform His greatest miracle, outside of His own resurrection. WE are like Lazarus, except that we are SPIRITUALLY dead - dead in our trespasses & sin. It wasn't until Jesus said, "Lazarus, come forth" was Lazarus ENABLED BY JESUS to do so. A dead man can't resuscitate himself.
@gsixty you said "When you have an issue with someone or something they've said it is a mature thing to address them personally. Correcting what they said or wrote to an audience *void of that individual* is in my opinion sheepish. It is also the third step not the first in the process of correction." And now you are taking issue with his critique publicly which is exactly what you accused him of doing.
If I didn't like his critique I should go to him personally. Don't you think if you didn't like my post you should have PM'd me instead of this open form??
Seriously...What I am saying is WE need to be skilful with the word of God not putting our trust in other men to do it for us that's all. So many will take RC's perspective (I like him btw) or a list of other men but we can't JUST take their word for it or my word for it either... Doing the work for yourself is the only way.
@gsixty You are the one that said you didn't like the critique in an open forum and that he should have gone to RB personally. Those were your words. I have no problem with a critique of a book, which is public, or posts on a you tube video. I just think if "YOU" are going to follow your own logic, you shouldn't be on her saying anything. And I don't know who RC is.
REALLY RW?? I'm not correcting his doctrinal view nor am I telling people he is wrong. I personally believe that our "work" should be able to stand to be critiqued however when we really care about people we first try to understand before we desire to be understood. I wonder how much time is spent trying to understand *by asking not assuming* where Bell is coming from and why he would write such a book.
Also, I'm almost a third of the way through, "Love wins" and I can say he says some things I contend with.... and it has taken me a number of years to NOT insist I know better where he may be off theologically but to ask, "What brought you to the place where this is true in your mind?"
Academic Christianity alone is nothing short of Religious... Just ask my wife, who says I have answers for everything...
so the 'good news is in part the damning of most to ongoing everlasting torture in the lake of fire? rob is speaking of nothing new; universal reconciliation has been a readily accepted doctrine among some of the early church fathers.
@KingdomUploader >"universal reconciliation has been a readily accepted doctrine among some of the early church fathers."
Although God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Eze 33:11,) you might want to hack through Romans 9 - how our sovereign God, the Potter, who is all powerful & all knowing, makes vessels of common use & of wrath, meant for destruction. Set against a backdrop of a completely good humanity, would His glory or death on the cross even be appreciated by anyone? No.
@Passiflora101 does this mean you believe God created some humans with the intention of condemning them to hell? If so then you need to do some serious word study.
@KingdomUploader >"universal reconciliation has been a readily accepted doctrine among some of the early church fathers."
"Christian Universalism" is the position that ALL of mankind will ultimately be saved through Jesus WHETHER OR NOT faith is professed in Him in this life. It claims that God's qualities of love, sovereignty, justice, etc., require that all people be saved...and that eternal punishment is a false doctrine, which is precisely what Bell tries to convey with his questions.
@KU Given that we are ALL sinners, why should God choose to save ANY of us? THAT is the good news of the Good News (the Gospel). Bible says NO man seeks after God. He is DEAD in his trespasses & sins, UNABLE to do so. Simply because "some" church fathers were Universalists, doesn't make them or Bell in line with Scripture. There have always been false teachers, but God had no plans for universal reconciliation as far as I understand Him. Check Romans 8. Romans = the Christian Constitution.
Seriously??? Why should God choose to save any of us?? Let me guess... we aren't worthy of His love? The last time I checked God was the best investor in creation. If He considers us valuable enough to die for.....who are WE are deny the fact that we have some eternal value. He saves us because He loves us THAT's why. If we don't deserve His love than neither does our enemies. It lets us off the hook from obeying His command to Love others.... They're not worth it either! BULL
@gsixty >"Let me guess... we aren't worthy of His love?" Besides being nothing more than a LOWLY SINNER, what worthy thing have you done? All my deeds are as filthy rags. All that the Father GIVES TO ME will come. The Triune God of the Bible saves sinners - the Father predestines, calls, draws, the Holy Spirit convicts, & we throw ourselves at the foot of the cross of our Redeemer, Jesus Christ, in repentant, Godly sorrow. You think he's going to save everyone, based on their worth?
@gsixty im pretty sure this is a conference, not church. im also pretty sure that you havent watched the video because bell was only talked about in the beginning.
@gsixty >"I absolutely love how church time is used to examine other people's teachings... I should devote some time to cross examine this teaching."
Oh! By all means, do so! Clearly you've read how GOOD shepherds are to guard the flock from wolves! Clearly you've read how false teachers would rise up AMONG US, attempting to snatch away God's elect!
Test yourself to see if YOU'RE in the faith (2Cor 13:5) because if you actually read your Bible, you'd know this is a GOOD shepherd.
I'm pretty sure Jesus is the shepherd of His flock. Ezekiel 37:24 David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd:
JESUS alone is the shepherd of Gods people.
"shepherds are to guard the flock from wolves" There is a difference here... how to think vs what to think. One empowers to sheep to skillfully use Gods word to discern good from evil the other doesn't equip the sheep only teaches them just to agree without testing Gods word for themselves.
This is good teaching academically but Jesus teachings were just good brain candy it actually required action on behalf of the listener. What call to action did this message call you to? Stand against the heretics in the church?
@gsixty "And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some asevangelists, and some as pastors and teachers.... As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming..." Eph 4:11 & 14
"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test THE SPIRITS to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world." 1 Jn 4:1
When the scriptures tell us to mature in the things of God we won't be naive to the trickery of men. You do not have to protect something that is capable of discerning evil otherwise who protects the pastors and teachers? The word says to arm YOURSELVES with the MIND of Christ. If people were taught to think with the Mind of Christ for themselves we wouldn't have the devil in the doors of our churches (or our hearts) to begin with.
@gsixty Now from those few verses (Eph 4:11&14 and 1John 4:1) can you see how Paul & John were guarding the flock? They were not Jesus, Himself. Latin word pastor means ‘shepherd’. It came from the same base as produced pascere ‘feed’, source of English pasture and repast, and hence denoted etymologically ‘one who grazes sheep’. I'd say part of feeding the flock is to warn them.
May it's just me but whenever I've heard someone "warn" others it done in fear. When you have an issue with someone or something they've said it is a mature thing to address them personally. Correcting what they said or wrote to an audience *void of that individual* is in my opinion sheepish. It is also the third step not the first in the process of correction.
IF Bell is blind let him fall into the ditch. If you love him go to him not at a conference for pete's sake! lol
@gsixty You are assuming that Johnson has not privately spoken to Bell. Mt 18:15-18 Not that he has to. Church leaders are held to a higher standard, & if they hold to anti-Biblical teachings, Paul said let them be accursed. Sheep are stupid animals, you know? They are followers. I agree that as Christians, we are to be Bereans & "examine the scriptures daily to see if these things are so." But the sheep are stupid, so in love, good shepherds take every chance they get to warn the flock.
@gsixty I believe such warnings are done in love for the sheep, not fear. Perfect love casts out all fear. Pastor Johnson courageously & boldly speaks out against wolves. He's just doing what any good shepherd would do.
@gsixty Another noteworthy point was how Jesus both BEGAN & ENDED his ministry by striking blows at the religious leaders of Israel, in the story of the Moneychangers, & finally the story of the Widow's Mite. That speaks volumes about how Jesus didn't just warn the flock, but showed great anger towards those hypocritical false teachers who bilked the poor to line there coffers. He knew 3 days later, He'd be crucified, so he only spoke to His disciples after that last rebuke. Food for thought.
@gsixty Some more food...I love the metaphor of the shepherd & sheep. Shepherds were the lowest of the low; the scums & outcasts. That's what made the appearance of the angels to announce the arrival of Messiah to shepherds so astonishing rather than to the prideful religious elite. Jesus was always doing what He needed to do to humble because God gives grace to the humble. And sheep are not only stupid, but they have no built-in self-defense mechanism, which is why they need to be in a flock.
"Shepherds were the lowest of the low; the scums & outcasts." True but today they are praised beyond what is considered humility (both Bell & Johnson).
@gsixty Which brings me to my final point. Comment on my channel reads, in part: "just yesterday i was listening to a podcast of Phil johnson who was talking about people who solo apart from the body, and how they will always become twisted in their beliefs and come to believe that everybody else has it wrong. Phil johnson proven right yet again." You didn't answer my question as to whether you attended a local body. Remember, God gives grace to the humble & resists the proud. Just sayin'...
@gsixty To follow your own logic, shouldn't you address Phil personally and not post comments about how much you disagree with his critique of Rob Bell?
The Bible does not teach eternal punishment. God's love and mercy endures forever. Does it really endure forever or only in this life? How can it be Good News if it doesn't translate to the afterlife?
1 Timothy 4:10- This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.
@aveyowyns You do know that weeping and gnashing of teeth is a reference to the vicious dogs in Gehenna (mistranslated as Hell). That does not prove eternal punishment. Search how many times the Scriptures say His love & mercy endures forever. Does it endure forever or only in this life? If He's not merciful in the afterlife, who needs His mercy in this life? It's pointless if that's the case and this life doesn't matter. Read Psalm 136
Lies. Jesus referenced weeping and gnashing of teeth so often, there is no way in the world he was referencing crying dogs who ground their teeth in Gehenna.
God's love endures forever, sure - that doesn't mean God sacrifices justice for love. Once again, why would Jesus say he would REJECT some, even those who claim to be his servants?
If hell does not exist, and no one will go to hell - the Jesus is pointless. Thanks for making Jesus irrelevant.
@aveyowyns You're not seeking truth, you are defending what you believe to be truth. I'm not interested in upholding a church doctrine. I want to believe what the Scriptures teach to be true. Eternal punishment in Hell is not biblical. There is a very real judgment day from a very real God but the Bible does not say it's eternal, it's just not there. How many times does He say weeping & gnashing of teeth? Could you please list them all here. It's not near as often as you're making it seem.
No. You're not seeking truth. Respond to my claims. Jesus said weeping and gnashing of teeth in Matthew SIX times - why would he reference dogs of a certain city SIX TIMES?! Yes, eternity is Biblical, a quick google search will show you where the Bible explains hell is eternal; Mark 9:43 - the fire is UNQUENCHABLE!
@aveyowyns Jesus spoke in parables (stories) all the time. He was comparing it to something bad. He used the word Gehenna, not Hell and He only said weeping & gnashing of teeth a couple times, the rest were repeated stories in the Gospels so 6 times is a bit misleading. Also, why did Paul never talk about Hell if it's such a real place of eternal torment I mean this is eternal damnation you're talking about. Would each writer cover it in every book to be overly thorough?
No, six times IN MATTHEW, one in LUKE! A mere ten minutes went by between this comment and the one you're responding to, there is no way you even attempted to look up if what I said was true.
You do not want to get into what Paul spoke about, as it will make you hate God even more (ie election, predestination, original sin, etc, etc). Paul's letter were written to Christians - they are not evangelical writings in that their purpose is to save sinners.
@aveyowyns So you are a Calvinist and I didn't need to look it up because I've already studied this out. I've written a book that will be out soon about the issue of Hell & eternity and what the Scriptures actually teach on the subject. I recommend you read it so you can see where I'm coming from Scripturally. Are you willing to change your belief if the Scriptures show you to be wrong?
That's nice you've written a book - except, so has Satan - he's written many; you may know them as the Quran, the Vedas, the Book of Mormon, etc, etc... Your ability to write a book on false doctrine doesn't mean anything. You've had plenty of opportunity to provide even one scripture that supported your 'lovingly punished for a short time,' theology ... I don't think I can stomach a whole book of your drivel to see if you've managed to provide scripture among it.
That's nice you've written a book - except, so has Satan - he's written many; you may know them as the Quran, the Vedas, the Book of Mormon, etc, etc... Your ability to write a book on false doctrine doesn't mean anything. You've had plenty of opportunity to provide even one scripture that supported your 'lovingly punished for a short time,' theology ... I don't think I can stomach a whole book of your drivel to see if you've managed to provide scripture among it.
That's nice you've written a book - except, so has Satan - he's written many; you may know them as the Quran, the Vedas, the Book of Mormon, etc, etc... Your ability to write a book on false doctrine doesn't mean anything. You've had plenty of opportunity to provide even one scripture that supported your 'lovingly punished for a short time,' theology ... I don't think I can stomach a whole book of your drivel to see if you've managed to provide scripture among it.
@aveyowyns Jesus saved the sins of the world- that's the Good News. If only 10% of people are going to Heaven then the Good News is really less-than-mediocre news because most people are lost for all of eternity? That's the best God could do with His plan of salvation? That doesn't make sense because it's not true. People don't get a free pass because they reject God in this life. They will be judged by God and like a good judge and a good dad, He will punish and correct, not write off forever.
Yes, it is good news... It's good news for those God gives to Christ; It is good news because God is now wholly and justly free to save whom he chooses. If the 'Good news' is irrelevant to 90% of the people in this life, then it isn't even 'news' to begin with. The Bible doesn't have to make sense to you for it to be true - the Bible not making sense, or sounding distasteful is a reflection of YOUR depravity, not of a doctrines inadequacy.
@aveyowyns If it's Good News for that few of mankind then God is cruel and was even more cruel by calling it Good News. That's the literal word used, Good News in the original translations. Are you really saying God chooses to save some and damn others? You're a Calvinist, no wonder the conversation is going this way. You need to open your mind and seek truth, not defend doctrine. There's a big difference brother.
Yes, God does choose to save some. As Paul so eloquently put it: "Does the potter have no right over the clay to make from he same clump one vessel for honourable use and another for dishonourable use?"
No, I do not need to open my mind; you need to read the Bible.
@aveyowyns I read the Bible continually. You are on dangerous ground if you're not willing to change your mind because you know your right. I don't have to be right or win a debate, blessings to you.
@aveyowyns 1 Timothy 4:10- This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.
That's like saying, "track is for everyone, especially those who like to run." Salvation is for all people, especially those who believe. Don't try to twist what it says, read it for what it actually says.
That is indeed what 1 Timothy 4:10 states, but the chapter from which you managed to find this verse speaks nothing of salvation. Find me a verse that is taken from the context of salvation about what will be done to unbelievers or false converts.
'Bringing salvation to all people,' is not what the verse is trying to express. The verse is trying to express what the 'grace of God' accomplishes in the lives of those whom god saves. 'Bringing salvation to all people,' almost seems like it should be in brackets - because that is what the grace of God does; it brings salvation to all people, but that no way implies that the grace of God brings salvation to all of humanity, nor was salvation the context of the verse.
No, you're interpreting it to fit YOUR beliefs ... do you not understand that an atheist can do what you do, and find irrelevant verses (or phrases, more like it), to make God look like evil? What's more, you haven't even attempted to justify the 'Lord, Lord' verse, as well as the parable of the 10 Midas.
@aveyowyns You can call me a heretic but my faith is in Jesus Christ. He is my Savior because He died and rose from the dead for my sins. Without Him I'm lost and dying. So, am I still a heretic because we believe differently on the doctrine of eternal punishment?
Yes, and there will be many who profess the same, and Jesus will tell them to 'depart from me, you workers of inequity.' I can just feel the love God has for the wicked emanating from that verse, can't you?
@aveyowyns 1 Tim. 2:3-6- This is good and pleases God our Savior, who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth. For there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity—the man Christ Jesus. He gave his life to purchase freedom for everyone. This is the message God gave to the world at just the right time.
Yes, God wants all of humanity to come to him - but the fact is, THEY WILL NOT, as Paul also expresses throughout his letters.
God did not want Adam to sin, but by your understanding of the relationship between what God wants and what God allows, God was therefore incapable of keeping Adam from sinning - and we know that is just not true; but it happened anyway!
I did say what the text says - the text does NOT say that all of humanity will be saved and enter into heaven... "for the road is narrow and FEW will find it." This is what I ask of you! Provide me a verse UNDER THE CONTEXT OF SALVATION, that supports your beliefs about hell.
No, they were not under the context of salvation ... any thing even hinting at salvation were parenthetical at best, side references at the general message of the Gospel.
@aveyowyns Romans 5:18- Yes, Adam’s one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christ’s one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone.
@aveyowyns Philippians 2:9-11- Therefore, God elevated him to the place of highest honor and gave him the name above all other names, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Yes... Everyone will confess that Jesus is Lord - eventually. I can't remember who said this, but 'there will be no atheists, or Muslims, or Hindus in hell' ...by then they will know the truth.
Yes, let's stick to the scriptures... but let me remind you, it is only AFTER I prompted you to provide scripture, which you've fail to do, that you quit from your emotional 'would-you-do-that-to-your-child' hodge-podge; hypocrite.
@aveyowyns So you just revert to name calling when you feel attacked? Is this Christ-like? I'm ending the discussion because I don't want to argue. I'll pray for you and ask you to do the same for me if you are also a believer. Sincere blessing to you and your family.
After a plethora of comments where you reverted to human reason and emotion rather than scripture, you had the gall to tell me to 'stick to scripture,' because I chose to add commentary to my explanation of scripture - so, you are a hypocrite.
Considering that Christ most often referred to the pharisees, who attacked him daily, as hypocrites and snakes, I would say my behaviour is VERY Christ-like.
@aveyowyns If you feel the need to call me a hypocrite, go ahead. I'm a Christian brother who reads the Scriptures daily and loves God with all my heart.
@aveyowyns I'm not doing anything holier than thou, I'm trying to walk in love. You are calling me names and talking about how Christ-like you are. Read the posts below. Can we focus on what we do agree on?
@whatthehellbook You may call yourself a "christian" but you bring a false gospel and you may love the "god" you've made in your mind but that god is ficticious and powerless to save. I promise you that you do not have a single scripture that supports universal salvation.
@gtrjunky Read all the verses I listed below and I am a Christian. Jesus died for my sins and rose from the dead so I can have salvation in Him alone. Do you still want to say I'm not a Christian? Is that really your place? Are you God? ALlow Him to judge please.
Once again: "Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
The parable of the Minas: “27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”
What Bible are you reading that allows you to so conveniently miss scriptures like these?
Once again: "Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
The parable of the Minas: “27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”
What Bible are you reading that allows you to so conveniently miss scriptures like these?
@aveyowyns Would you write off any of your children for all of eternity? Do you know how long eternity is? You think it's just of God to punish for all of eternity for 78 years lived on this Earth? That's justice? If that's justice, I want nothing to do with that god. Thankfully, that's not the true God and Savior- Jesus Christ.
God makes it clear that the children of iniquity are not his children. We are born God enemy's; in enmity with God and spiritually dead. He also hates the wicked (Psalm 11).
If you kick a dog, it might yelp; if you kick a child, it'll cry; if you kick me, I'll probably punch you (or charge you with assault if I'm feeling pretty rational that particular day; if you kick a cop, you're arrested; if you attempt to kick the president, you're shot ... Sin against an infinitely...
Phil Johnson seems oblivious that many of the early church fathers had very similar beliefs to Bell. It's worth noting that Bell never endorses the view that all will be saves. He does say that we can legitimately hope that all may be saved. This is a position very similar to the early church fathers, particularly the Eastern Fathers. It's a view shared by the Eastern Orthodox Church. Read Kallistos Ware's book on the Orthodox Church. CS Lewis too does not think that hell is a literal place....
brendos444 3 weeks ago
@brendos444 evidently the Phil Johnson has unwittingly picked up medieval Catholic notions of hell that was crystalized during the Reformation. It's also very much worth noting that penal substitutionary atonement was NOT endorsed by ANY church father within the first 4 centuries of the Christian era! And later fathers that speak of substitutionary atonement DO NOT mean what Phil Johnson thinks it means!! Go back and read church history evangelicals.. you might actually get some wisdom!!!!
brendos444 3 weeks ago
I'm personally hoping that the decline of the U.S. as the dominant power in the world will also reduce it's influence over Christendom. I think America and Rome (but America particularly) are the last great bastions of error in Christendom. Christianity needs to look East and towards England and the Anglican communion for reasonable Christianity. I'm hoping that Orthodox and Anglican communions can take the lead regarding asserting the truth of the gospel, not idolatrous notions found in America
brendos444 3 weeks ago
@386ABC You have a good point. Peace.
truth96130 1 month ago
Nice Underworld commercial on this specific subject.
CaptainPeterful 1 month ago
Thank you. This was wonderful preaching.
henwhisperer 1 month ago
The apostle Paul did warn about the eternal punishment of the wicked in 2 Thes.1:8
UniversalismRefuted 2 months ago
@UniversalismRefuted Actually there was no word that existed before the bible was written that means
(time with out end) (according to every etymologist alive) so (eternal) is a bad translation. I forgive you for you bad language in advance. Peace.
truth96130 1 month ago
@truth96130 Actually you don't know your rear end from a hole in the ground because there IS a word that means that very thing and it IS used in God's word but we both know that since you are a lying, carnal minded servant of the devil that you will not listen but that's ok as long as others do listen and ignore the likes of you and your filthy, stinking ilk.
UniversalismRefuted 1 month ago
@UniversalismRefuted Lie#1 I do not know my ear from a hole in the ground.
Lie #2 You said- (I don't need your "forgiveness")
So according to you, lie #1 is ok by God?
God is cool with you lieing and saying
I do not know my ear from a hole?
I thought all lies were wrong.
truth96130 1 month ago
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UniversalismRefuted 1 month ago
@UniversalismRefuted You said "I did not say anything "bad" according to God"
Do I know my ear form a hole? YES I DO :)
Did you say i do not know my ear form a hole?
YES YOU DID. Ok so it was a lie.
1 John 1/8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive
ourselves and the truth is not in us.
truth96130 1 month ago
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truth96130 1 month ago
@UniversalismRefuted No I am afraid I do not know of a word that they used in the bible (while it was being written) that mean time with out end.
That is lie #3 for you. Saying you know what people think
(when your not a mind reader) has got you caught in a lie.
truth96130 1 month ago
@truth96130 Well there's a lot of things that you don't "know" that are written in the bible and padrt of that reason is that you are dead in your sins and you worship a figment of your carnal mind that is worthless and powerless.
UniversalismRefuted 1 month ago
@truth96130 Incidentally liar, I don't need your "forgiveness" because I have not said anything "bad" according to God. Now what I have said may be "bad" according to you but you are NOBODY and your opinion is as valuable as a steaming pile of fresh dung.
UniversalismRefuted 1 month ago
Comment removed
truth96130 1 month ago
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@UniversalismRefuted REALLY? You have NEVER said anything bad?
You said (I do not know my ear from a hole.)
That was a lie. Are lies bad?
YES lies are bad.
Ok so not only did you lie about my ear you
also lie about not saying anything bad.
truth96130 1 month ago
@UniversalismRefuted Lie # 4 You said I do not need to forgive you.
Eph. 4/32 ..forgive each other...
According to the bible I do need to forgive you.
Guess what??? I FORGIVE YOU. :)
truth96130 1 month ago
@UniversalismRefuted Lie #5 You said I was (NOBODY)
Nobody means- (a person of no influence).
The only way you could know (I have no influence)
is if you knew everything about me from the day of my birth.
You do not know that. You can imagine that but
the truth is we have never even met.
I forgive you. Peace.
truth96130 1 month ago
@truth96130
Aion and Aionos are BOTH used to describe absolute eternity in Rom.16:26 & 1 Tim.1:17.
All the members of the Trinity are described as without beginning and end in Heb.9:14, 13:8) using these same words.
They also describe a long idefinite period of time in Mt.21:19, John 8:35, Lk.16:9, Philemon15.
They also time over creation Jn.9:32, & Titus 1:2 in a temporal and spacial sense.
UniversalismRefuted 1 month ago
@truth96130 I have several more exegetical examples but we both know that you don't want to hear it because it conflicts with your man made religion. Since you are a NOBODY then I could not care less that you believe this, I just care that true believers do.
BTW, your fogiveness is of no worth or value to me. If you're offended then take it up with God.
UniversalismRefuted 1 month ago
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@truth96130 I also have some great exegetical examples of Aion and Aionos used to describe something that begins but has no end either.
Yes you do not know Rear end (ass) from a hole in a ground. That's an expression used to describe stupid people such as yourself. Incidentally fool this is how to PROPERLY SPELL L-Y-I-N-G, not lieing. Moron!
UniversalismRefuted 1 month ago
@386ABC Again, you can't take one or two texts out of context and make a theology out of it. There are so many other scriptures where Jesus Himself talked about hell and eternal punishment; do you not read them? And what scripture says unbelievers will be forgiven without trusting Jesus as Savior? I just pray you will read the Bible in context and trust Christ for forgiveness. If you wish to reply, that is fine, but I do not believe your belief; read your Bible in context.
2timothy23 2 months ago
This is a good sermon and well done by Phil Johnson. I've read some of the comments and I find that most that disagree with Phil give their opinions more than scripture. Proverbs 3:5-7 warns against that. Our sinful views can't explain God; God reveals Himself in the Bible. Rob Bell's teachings are heretical and dangerous because a Bible teacher should give solid answers (1Peter 3:15, 2Timothy 2:15, 4:1-5, Ephesians 4:11-14), not questions to raise doubts and promote relativism.
2timothy23 2 months ago
@386ABC In addition, to concentrate on only God's attribute of love and deny His other attributes of holiness, righteousness, truth, justice, takes away from His grace, mercy, and His love. I pray that you will study the Word of God for what it is and not believe false doctrines that teach that God loves everyone without judging sin, since Romans 3:9-19 shows we are sinners "that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God." (Verse19) I pray you seek the truth.
2timothy23 2 months ago
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@386ABC Phil Johnson is only attacking false teaching, which the Bible constantly does. If someone professes to be a believer but teaches false doctrines, it must be called out, no matter how "sincere" that teacher is. Read 2Peter 2, 1John 4:1, 2John 7-10, the book of Jude, 2Timothy 4:1-5, Romans 16:17-19, and Galatians 1:6-10 to name a few scriptures that warn us against false doctrine. And we are called to judge rightly, because what you say and do shows your heart. (Matthew 15:18-20)
2timothy23 2 months ago
@386ABC Phil Johnson is only attacking false teaching, which the Bible constantly does. If someone professes to be a believer but teaches false doctrines, it must be called out, no matter how "sincere" that teacher is. Read 2Peter 2, 1John 4:1, 2John 7-10, the book of Jude, 2Timothy 4:1-5, Romans 16:17-19, and Galatians 1:6-10 to name a few scriptures that warn us against false doctrine. And we are called to judge rightly, because what you say and do shows your heart. (Matthew 15:18-20)
2timothy23 2 months ago
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MOVIE COMING SOON!
True Story of 1 man's search for Trurh!
Hell is not Eternal Burning!
Hell & Mr Fudge Promo (Copy & paste or type in to SEE TRAILER)
Georgephyl 2 months ago
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A lot of Christians are confused, because of the many false teachers who claim they know Gods word. You people who believe in hell, forget that the teachings of Christ were spoken only to Jews. If Christ was warning about hell, He neglected to teach the gentiles there to save them too. Or maybe His teaching meant something else. I know they do.
SwordofManticorE 3 months ago
If Phil Johnson's church was here in Chicago, I would be a member. Outstanding presentation!!!!!!
mrcharleshogue 4 months ago
Eternal punishment or eternal punishing? The mindset of the evangelical community is perplexing. It’s almost as if they need hell to be real so as to hold their heads above the heathen. What’s wrong with Yahweh simply imposing a “lights out” sentence on His opposition? That’s simply to say, you opposed Me throughout your life, so now you’ll cease to exist in any way shape or form throughout eternity. Dust to dust, ashes to ashes.
ergo375 5 months ago
@ergo375 It's wrong because it's not biblical. The bible talks about hell a lot and it's not just "lights out", it's an eternal suffering. If your spirit will just cease to exist as a result of sin, why did Jesus have to suffer and die so you get saved from that? Hell is for real and it's meant for those who have to pay for their sins.
letjim 5 months ago
Well done sermon.
Outrider74 5 months ago
1 Cor 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. The Devil creates confusion. Hell is real. God gave us Free Will. Thus we can choose to accept Jesus as our Saviour and have eternal life with Jesus Christ; or not and end up in hell and the Lake of Fire.
KJAV1611 5 months ago
@KJAV1611
Is man's will to condemn himself stronger than God's power to save Him?
Or consider this, would you let one of your children walk into a burning building simply in the name of "free will?" Is that what Love would do?
JesseGrieshaber 4 months ago
1 Cor 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
The Devil creates confusion. Follow God's Word not mans. Hell is real. God gave us Free Will. Thus we can choose to accept Jesus as our Saviour and have eternal life with Jesus Christ; or not and end up in hell and the Lake of Fire.
KJAV1611 5 months ago
Rob bell is trying to get people to think and he is right to do so. He has made his positions known in other videos. There is no such thing as Holy terror. There is a healthy fear of God because God is just and will punish sin. Not sinners - sin! He sent his son to separate us from sin. So Christ became sin for us, that such justice would not fall on us. Jesus is no mere substitute he is life itself.
mahoganyrush300 5 months ago
Those who reject hell will surely land in hell.
Hell is not rejectable, Justice must be done. The Law is set by the Creator, not the created.
givethanks1314 5 months ago
@givethanks1314
Is an eternal punishment just? The mechanics behind the phrase "eternal punishment" is self-contradicting. And the Law the Creator instilled is one that is measurable (An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth). What is measurable about eternity? We do not set the Law but we do know the Law because it is written on our Hearts. If our sense of justice is different than God's then how could Paul have said "even unbelievers are a law unto themselves?"
Your thoughts?
JesseGrieshaber 4 months ago
@JesseGrieshaber
God is JUST. So whatever He does is JUST.
Man was made to live forever, thus the penalty for sin is eternal death.
The Bible suggests, however, the degrees of punishment differ depending on different sins.
The Bible does not reveal more than that. We'd better not sin. It is impossible for men not sinning. God knew this and He Himself came down from heaven to die on our behalf. Isn't that amazing love? What more do you need?
givethanks1314 4 months ago
@givethanks1314
If God does something unjust would that make it just?
Romans 6:23 doesn't say anything about an eternal death... And since when is the penalty based on the design of the creature? I thought it was based on the offense (an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, not an eternity for an eye and an eternity for a tooth).
That aside, what is just about an eternal punishment for a finite offense(s)?
I think the Bible reveals a lot more than that.
JesseGrieshaber 4 months ago
@JesseGrieshaber
If God does something unjust, then the one who does it is NOT God.
Sin murders the eternal life; thus the requires eternal punishment.
Tell me more what the Bible reveals regarding eternal punishment. Roman 6:23 says: "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
For me, this is more than enough. It shows the WAY avoiding that eternal punishment.
givethanks1314 4 months ago
would you mind adding me as a friend so I can message you? 400 characters is a little light for such a heavy subject and multiple responses is too tedious. Hope you don't mind
JesseGrieshaber 4 months ago
@JesseGrieshaber
done.
givethanks1314 4 months ago
uh oh, Johnson goes to the opposite error, recommending mortal terror, holy terror, he calls it.
so much for hoping for balanced preaching. let him roast in the agony of "holy" terror for as long as I have and if it does not destroy him he will know such is unbelief and as much sin as bells denying of hell
Strefanasha 5 months ago
debate?
what total ignorance of scripture is this?
there is no ground for debate
if Bell does not accept hell he does not accept the Bible and would be more honest to fully reject the faith.
but WHY are christians confused by Bells preaching.? are they so ignorant of the Bible?
you reject bell's preaching, period
Strefanasha 5 months ago
Many Christians are mostly noted for preaching 'against' things; their time and energy would be better spent interceding in prayer for their flock.
KingdomUploader 5 months ago
@KingdomUploader
I had a dog... His name was BINGO!
gsixty 5 months ago
@KingdomUploader
Mmmhmmm...
I bet there were people saying the same to Jeremiah, or Elijah, etc, etc... Biblically, God never really called men to intercede - I say he leaves that up to you and me.
aveyowyns 5 months ago
If you don't like Phil's critique of Rob Bell, shouldn't you go to him personally instead of posting it all over the internet?
rustywolverine 5 months ago
IF I don't like it? I don't recall saying I didn't like anything in this video. Jesus didn't bash peoples doctrines, He did however call them out on the issues of their hearts. If Bell thinks God's Love is big enough to reach even to the depths of hell (call it delusional if you will) Bell isn't denying the cross just mainstream beliefs and that is what people don't.
I don't bash Calvinism although I may not agree it really doesn't matter. We will give an account for ourselves not others.
gsixty 5 months ago
@gsixty >"Jesus didn't bash peoples doctrines"
He most certainly did! Woe to the Pharisees! Woe to the scribes!
Passiflora101 5 months ago
@Passiflora101
LOL.... Please show me in scripture where Jesus does an extensive exegesis on their teachings. Jesus warns them to stop hiding behind a false image of Godliness.
gsixty 5 months ago
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@gsixty >"Please show me in scripture where Jesus does an extensive exegesis on their teachings."
So Christ's emphasis at the beginning AND ending of His ministry wasn't enough for you?
Passiflora101 5 months ago
@gsixty Most people who say they don't agree with Calvinism can't distinguish Historic Calvinism from the many flavors of Hyper-Calvinism. For insight & clarity, I recommend Phil Johnson's article "A Primer on Hyper-Calvinism" at his C. H. Spurgeon archive - spurgeon(dot)org.
I was an Arminian for 40 years. Boy was I wrong to think that I could "make a decision" to come to Christ. He chooses us, not the other way around.
Passiflora101 5 months ago
@Passiflora101
Does He choose some while not others?? If He is not willing that ANY shall perish then why would you want to quote Romans 9:18.
Can one not deny Christ even if he is chosen of God? Do you believe in free will or do you think we are all walking preselected paths?
gsixty 5 months ago
@gsixty "And we know that GOD CAUSES all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are CALLED according to HIS purpose. For those whom HE FOREKNEW, HE ALSO PREDESTINED to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom HE PREDESTINED, HE ALSO CALLED; and these whom HE CALLED, HE ALSO JUSTIFIED; and these whom HE JUSTIFIED, HE ALSO GLORIFIED." Rom 8:28-30 - the "Golden Chain of Redemption."
Passiflora101 5 months ago
@Passiflora101
We are glorified?
gsixty 5 months ago
@gsixty >"We are glorified?" Yes. Glorification means taken to heaven upon our death. It is the completion of the Golden Chain of Redemption. And in between the time of justification & glorification, the Holy Spirit moves in us to sanctify us, making us more & more like Christ. (Sanctification.)
Passiflora101 5 months ago
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@gsixty Free will is limited by our fallen nature. "But a NATURAL man does NOT accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; & he CANNOT understand them, because they are spiritually appraised." 1 Cor 2:14 But the sinner's inability doesn't negate his RESPONSibility to obey God, since it's man's own sin that caused his inability. God is the author & finisher of our faith, which comes by hearing & hearing by the word of Christ so we have a duty to RESPOND.
Passiflora101 5 months ago
@gsixty >"Can one not deny Christ even if he is chosen of God?" NOT deny Christ? EVEN if he's chosen by God? Not sure if that's what you mean. "ALL that the Father GIVES to Me (Jesus) will come and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." Jn 6:37
Do you question "once saved, always saved?" Is that what you mean? Can one DENY Christ even if he's chosen by God (omitting "not")? If so, read 1 Jn 2:19. These are false converts, never chosen, but "made a decision."
Passiflora101 5 months ago
@gsixty >"Can one not deny Christ even if he is chosen of God?" NOT deny Christ? EVEN if he's chosen by God? Not sure if that's what you mean. "ALL that the Father GIVES to Me (Jesus) will come and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." Jn 6:37
Passiflora101 5 months ago
@gsixty >"Can one NOT deny Christ even if he is chosen of God?"
Do you question "once saved, always saved?" Is that what you mean? Can one DENY Christ even if he's chosen by God (omitting the word "not" before the word "deny")? If so, read 1 Jn 2:19. These are false converts, never chosen by God in the first place, but "made a decision" of their own. This happens as a result in the false Arminian belief that man can choose. Man can ONLY RESPOND to God's EFFECTUAL call.
Passiflora101 5 months ago
@gsixty @gsixty >"Can one NOT deny Christ even if he is chosen of God?"
Do you question "once saved, always saved?" Is that what you mean? Can one DENY Christ AFTER if he's chosen by God (omitting the word "not" before the word "deny")? If so, read 1 Jn 2:19. These are false converts, never chosen by God in the first place, but "made a decision" of their own. This happens as a result in the false Arminian belief that man can choose. He then falls away. Man can ONLY RESPOND.
Passiflora101 5 months ago
@Passiflora101
Man can't choose? Can man chose to respond or we only respond. When you eat something you can respond in many different ways. two being like or dislike... this is called choice...
gsixty 5 months ago
@gsixty How many millions of people deny Christ in their heart, even though God planted the knowledge of Him inside them? The heavens tell the glory of God, & day after day, night after night, they pour forth speech. This is the general call to all men, just as is the preaching of the Word. But does the unbeliever "get it?" Can a blind man see or a deaf man hear? God must FIRST lift the veil, give the blind man sight, & the deaf man ears to hear. This is God's effectual call & they respond.
Passiflora101 5 months ago
@gsixty Sorry, but it's late & my internet pages here are getting stuck - freezing or slowly loading. Time for bed. Catch you later. If you have time, watch the videos I recommended. Good night & God bless.
Passiflora101 5 months ago
@gsixty Hey....before I go... I'm going to send you a PM with an explanation of the Monergistic (Calvin) vs. Synergystic (Arminius) viewpoints. Maybe it will help. Goodnight.
Passiflora101 5 months ago
@gsixty I like to use the story of Lazarus to demonstrate how it is God revives us to new life (born again). Upon hearing that Lazarus was sick, Jesus waited a few days before going to him...He was getting ready to perform His greatest miracle, outside of His own resurrection. WE are like Lazarus, except that we are SPIRITUALLY dead - dead in our trespasses & sin. It wasn't until Jesus said, "Lazarus, come forth" was Lazarus ENABLED BY JESUS to do so. A dead man can't resuscitate himself.
Passiflora101 5 months ago
@gsixty Try watching a couple of YT videos here....
1) "Decisional Regeneration: Paul Washer Interview"
and
2) "Salvation is not a prayer: ye must be born again Pt 1" (of 3 - watch all 3) from Flint Hill Baptist Church, pastor Mike Reeves.
Passiflora101 5 months ago
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@gsixty you said "When you have an issue with someone or something they've said it is a mature thing to address them personally. Correcting what they said or wrote to an audience *void of that individual* is in my opinion sheepish. It is also the third step not the first in the process of correction." And now you are taking issue with his critique publicly which is exactly what you accused him of doing.
rustywolverine 5 months ago
@rustywolverine
If I didn't like his critique I should go to him personally. Don't you think if you didn't like my post you should have PM'd me instead of this open form??
Seriously...What I am saying is WE need to be skilful with the word of God not putting our trust in other men to do it for us that's all. So many will take RC's perspective (I like him btw) or a list of other men but we can't JUST take their word for it or my word for it either... Doing the work for yourself is the only way.
gsixty 5 months ago
@gsixty You are the one that said you didn't like the critique in an open forum and that he should have gone to RB personally. Those were your words. I have no problem with a critique of a book, which is public, or posts on a you tube video. I just think if "YOU" are going to follow your own logic, you shouldn't be on her saying anything. And I don't know who RC is.
rustywolverine 5 months ago
@rustywolverine
REALLY RW?? I'm not correcting his doctrinal view nor am I telling people he is wrong. I personally believe that our "work" should be able to stand to be critiqued however when we really care about people we first try to understand before we desire to be understood. I wonder how much time is spent trying to understand *by asking not assuming* where Bell is coming from and why he would write such a book.
gsixty 5 months ago
Also, I'm almost a third of the way through, "Love wins" and I can say he says some things I contend with.... and it has taken me a number of years to NOT insist I know better where he may be off theologically but to ask, "What brought you to the place where this is true in your mind?"
Academic Christianity alone is nothing short of Religious... Just ask my wife, who says I have answers for everything...
gsixty 5 months ago
so the 'good news is in part the damning of most to ongoing everlasting torture in the lake of fire? rob is speaking of nothing new; universal reconciliation has been a readily accepted doctrine among some of the early church fathers.
KingdomUploader 5 months ago
@KingdomUploader >"universal reconciliation has been a readily accepted doctrine among some of the early church fathers."
Although God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Eze 33:11,) you might want to hack through Romans 9 - how our sovereign God, the Potter, who is all powerful & all knowing, makes vessels of common use & of wrath, meant for destruction. Set against a backdrop of a completely good humanity, would His glory or death on the cross even be appreciated by anyone? No.
Passiflora101 5 months ago
@Passiflora101 does this mean you believe God created some humans with the intention of condemning them to hell? If so then you need to do some serious word study.
KingdomUploader 5 months ago
@KingdomUploader Like I said, try reading Romans 9.
Jacob I loved, Esau I hated.
He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
Passiflora101 5 months ago
@Passiflora101 God's choice was not regarding their salvation, but their place in accomplishing the divine
purposes of human redemption (sending Christ into the world). All their
descendants will be saved in exactly the same way: faith in Christ and
obedience to His gospel (Rom. 11:25-36).
KingdomUploader 5 months ago
@KingdomUploader >"universal reconciliation has been a readily accepted doctrine among some of the early church fathers."
"Christian Universalism" is the position that ALL of mankind will ultimately be saved through Jesus WHETHER OR NOT faith is professed in Him in this life. It claims that God's qualities of love, sovereignty, justice, etc., require that all people be saved...and that eternal punishment is a false doctrine, which is precisely what Bell tries to convey with his questions.
Passiflora101 5 months ago
@KU Given that we are ALL sinners, why should God choose to save ANY of us? THAT is the good news of the Good News (the Gospel). Bible says NO man seeks after God. He is DEAD in his trespasses & sins, UNABLE to do so. Simply because "some" church fathers were Universalists, doesn't make them or Bell in line with Scripture. There have always been false teachers, but God had no plans for universal reconciliation as far as I understand Him. Check Romans 8. Romans = the Christian Constitution.
Passiflora101 5 months ago
@Passiflora101
Seriously??? Why should God choose to save any of us?? Let me guess... we aren't worthy of His love? The last time I checked God was the best investor in creation. If He considers us valuable enough to die for.....who are WE are deny the fact that we have some eternal value. He saves us because He loves us THAT's why. If we don't deserve His love than neither does our enemies. It lets us off the hook from obeying His command to Love others.... They're not worth it either! BULL
gsixty 5 months ago
@gsixty >"Let me guess... we aren't worthy of His love?" Besides being nothing more than a LOWLY SINNER, what worthy thing have you done? All my deeds are as filthy rags. All that the Father GIVES TO ME will come. The Triune God of the Bible saves sinners - the Father predestines, calls, draws, the Holy Spirit convicts, & we throw ourselves at the foot of the cross of our Redeemer, Jesus Christ, in repentant, Godly sorrow. You think he's going to save everyone, based on their worth?
Passiflora101 5 months ago
Rich, rich, rich. How great is our Lord?!
MetroWord 5 months ago
I absolutely love how church time is used to examine other people's teachings... I should devote some time to cross examine this teaching.
gsixty 5 months ago
@gsixty im pretty sure this is a conference, not church. im also pretty sure that you havent watched the video because bell was only talked about in the beginning.
tercelkisor 5 months ago
@gsixty >"I absolutely love how church time is used to examine other people's teachings... I should devote some time to cross examine this teaching."
Oh! By all means, do so! Clearly you've read how GOOD shepherds are to guard the flock from wolves! Clearly you've read how false teachers would rise up AMONG US, attempting to snatch away God's elect!
Test yourself to see if YOU'RE in the faith (2Cor 13:5) because if you actually read your Bible, you'd know this is a GOOD shepherd.
Passiflora101 5 months ago
@Passiflora101
I'm pretty sure Jesus is the shepherd of His flock. Ezekiel 37:24 David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd:
JESUS alone is the shepherd of Gods people.
"shepherds are to guard the flock from wolves" There is a difference here... how to think vs what to think. One empowers to sheep to skillfully use Gods word to discern good from evil the other doesn't equip the sheep only teaches them just to agree without testing Gods word for themselves.
gsixty 5 months ago
This is good teaching academically but Jesus teachings were just good brain candy it actually required action on behalf of the listener. What call to action did this message call you to? Stand against the heretics in the church?
What does Jesus say about them??
Matthew 15:14
Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
He didn't waste His time undoing all they did. He'd run in circles forever.
Jesus healed the blind.
gsixty 5 months ago
@gsixty "And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some asevangelists, and some as pastors and teachers.... As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming..." Eph 4:11 & 14
"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test THE SPIRITS to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world." 1 Jn 4:1
Passiflora101 5 months ago
@Passiflora101
Agreed.
When the scriptures tell us to mature in the things of God we won't be naive to the trickery of men. You do not have to protect something that is capable of discerning evil otherwise who protects the pastors and teachers? The word says to arm YOURSELVES with the MIND of Christ. If people were taught to think with the Mind of Christ for themselves we wouldn't have the devil in the doors of our churches (or our hearts) to begin with.
gsixty 5 months ago
@gsixty And do you not believe in fellowship? Are you one of those who doesn't attend a local body of believers?
Passiflora101 5 months ago
@gsixty Now from those few verses (Eph 4:11&14 and 1John 4:1) can you see how Paul & John were guarding the flock? They were not Jesus, Himself. Latin word pastor means ‘shepherd’. It came from the same base as produced pascere ‘feed’, source of English pasture and repast, and hence denoted etymologically ‘one who grazes sheep’. I'd say part of feeding the flock is to warn them.
Passiflora101 5 months ago
@Passiflora101
May it's just me but whenever I've heard someone "warn" others it done in fear. When you have an issue with someone or something they've said it is a mature thing to address them personally. Correcting what they said or wrote to an audience *void of that individual* is in my opinion sheepish. It is also the third step not the first in the process of correction.
IF Bell is blind let him fall into the ditch. If you love him go to him not at a conference for pete's sake! lol
gsixty 5 months ago
@gsixty You are assuming that Johnson has not privately spoken to Bell. Mt 18:15-18 Not that he has to. Church leaders are held to a higher standard, & if they hold to anti-Biblical teachings, Paul said let them be accursed. Sheep are stupid animals, you know? They are followers. I agree that as Christians, we are to be Bereans & "examine the scriptures daily to see if these things are so." But the sheep are stupid, so in love, good shepherds take every chance they get to warn the flock.
Passiflora101 5 months ago
@gsixty I believe such warnings are done in love for the sheep, not fear. Perfect love casts out all fear. Pastor Johnson courageously & boldly speaks out against wolves. He's just doing what any good shepherd would do.
Passiflora101 5 months ago
@gsixty Another noteworthy point was how Jesus both BEGAN & ENDED his ministry by striking blows at the religious leaders of Israel, in the story of the Moneychangers, & finally the story of the Widow's Mite. That speaks volumes about how Jesus didn't just warn the flock, but showed great anger towards those hypocritical false teachers who bilked the poor to line there coffers. He knew 3 days later, He'd be crucified, so he only spoke to His disciples after that last rebuke. Food for thought.
Passiflora101 5 months ago
@gsixty Some more food...I love the metaphor of the shepherd & sheep. Shepherds were the lowest of the low; the scums & outcasts. That's what made the appearance of the angels to announce the arrival of Messiah to shepherds so astonishing rather than to the prideful religious elite. Jesus was always doing what He needed to do to humble because God gives grace to the humble. And sheep are not only stupid, but they have no built-in self-defense mechanism, which is why they need to be in a flock.
Passiflora101 5 months ago
@Passiflora101
"Shepherds were the lowest of the low; the scums & outcasts." True but today they are praised beyond what is considered humility (both Bell & Johnson).
gsixty 5 months ago
@gsixty >"praised beyond what is considered humility"
What exactly does that mean?
Passiflora101 5 months ago
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@gsixty Which brings me to my final point. Comment on my channel reads, in part: "just yesterday i was listening to a podcast of Phil johnson who was talking about people who solo apart from the body, and how they will always become twisted in their beliefs and come to believe that everybody else has it wrong. Phil johnson proven right yet again." You didn't answer my question as to whether you attended a local body. Remember, God gives grace to the humble & resists the proud. Just sayin'...
Passiflora101 5 months ago
@gsixty To follow your own logic, shouldn't you address Phil personally and not post comments about how much you disagree with his critique of Rob Bell?
rustywolverine 5 months ago
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rustywolverine 5 months ago
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rustywolverine 5 months ago
The Bible does not teach eternal punishment. God's love and mercy endures forever. Does it really endure forever or only in this life? How can it be Good News if it doesn't translate to the afterlife?
1 Timothy 4:10- This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.
whatthehellbook . com
whatthehellbook 5 months ago
@whatthehellbook
How many times did Jesus say: there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth?
What about the verse: There will be many who say 'Lord, Lord?'
aveyowyns 5 months ago
@aveyowyns You do know that weeping and gnashing of teeth is a reference to the vicious dogs in Gehenna (mistranslated as Hell). That does not prove eternal punishment. Search how many times the Scriptures say His love & mercy endures forever. Does it endure forever or only in this life? If He's not merciful in the afterlife, who needs His mercy in this life? It's pointless if that's the case and this life doesn't matter. Read Psalm 136
whatthehellbook . com
whatthehellbook 5 months ago
@whatthehellbook
Lies. Jesus referenced weeping and gnashing of teeth so often, there is no way in the world he was referencing crying dogs who ground their teeth in Gehenna.
God's love endures forever, sure - that doesn't mean God sacrifices justice for love. Once again, why would Jesus say he would REJECT some, even those who claim to be his servants?
If hell does not exist, and no one will go to hell - the Jesus is pointless. Thanks for making Jesus irrelevant.
aveyowyns 5 months ago
@aveyowyns You're not seeking truth, you are defending what you believe to be truth. I'm not interested in upholding a church doctrine. I want to believe what the Scriptures teach to be true. Eternal punishment in Hell is not biblical. There is a very real judgment day from a very real God but the Bible does not say it's eternal, it's just not there. How many times does He say weeping & gnashing of teeth? Could you please list them all here. It's not near as often as you're making it seem.
whatthehellbook 5 months ago
@whatthehellbook
No. You're not seeking truth. Respond to my claims. Jesus said weeping and gnashing of teeth in Matthew SIX times - why would he reference dogs of a certain city SIX TIMES?! Yes, eternity is Biblical, a quick google search will show you where the Bible explains hell is eternal; Mark 9:43 - the fire is UNQUENCHABLE!
aveyowyns 5 months ago
@aveyowyns Jesus spoke in parables (stories) all the time. He was comparing it to something bad. He used the word Gehenna, not Hell and He only said weeping & gnashing of teeth a couple times, the rest were repeated stories in the Gospels so 6 times is a bit misleading. Also, why did Paul never talk about Hell if it's such a real place of eternal torment I mean this is eternal damnation you're talking about. Would each writer cover it in every book to be overly thorough?
whatthehellbook . com
whatthehellbook 5 months ago
@whatthehellbook
No, six times IN MATTHEW, one in LUKE! A mere ten minutes went by between this comment and the one you're responding to, there is no way you even attempted to look up if what I said was true.
You do not want to get into what Paul spoke about, as it will make you hate God even more (ie election, predestination, original sin, etc, etc). Paul's letter were written to Christians - they are not evangelical writings in that their purpose is to save sinners.
aveyowyns 5 months ago
@aveyowyns So you are a Calvinist and I didn't need to look it up because I've already studied this out. I've written a book that will be out soon about the issue of Hell & eternity and what the Scriptures actually teach on the subject. I recommend you read it so you can see where I'm coming from Scripturally. Are you willing to change your belief if the Scriptures show you to be wrong?
whatthehellbook 5 months ago
@whatthehellbook
That's nice you've written a book - except, so has Satan - he's written many; you may know them as the Quran, the Vedas, the Book of Mormon, etc, etc... Your ability to write a book on false doctrine doesn't mean anything. You've had plenty of opportunity to provide even one scripture that supported your 'lovingly punished for a short time,' theology ... I don't think I can stomach a whole book of your drivel to see if you've managed to provide scripture among it.
aveyowyns 5 months ago
@whatthehellbook
That's nice you've written a book - except, so has Satan - he's written many; you may know them as the Quran, the Vedas, the Book of Mormon, etc, etc... Your ability to write a book on false doctrine doesn't mean anything. You've had plenty of opportunity to provide even one scripture that supported your 'lovingly punished for a short time,' theology ... I don't think I can stomach a whole book of your drivel to see if you've managed to provide scripture among it.
aveyowyns 5 months ago
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@whatthehellbook
That's nice you've written a book - except, so has Satan - he's written many; you may know them as the Quran, the Vedas, the Book of Mormon, etc, etc... Your ability to write a book on false doctrine doesn't mean anything. You've had plenty of opportunity to provide even one scripture that supported your 'lovingly punished for a short time,' theology ... I don't think I can stomach a whole book of your drivel to see if you've managed to provide scripture among it.
aveyowyns 5 months ago
@aveyowyns Jesus saved the sins of the world- that's the Good News. If only 10% of people are going to Heaven then the Good News is really less-than-mediocre news because most people are lost for all of eternity? That's the best God could do with His plan of salvation? That doesn't make sense because it's not true. People don't get a free pass because they reject God in this life. They will be judged by God and like a good judge and a good dad, He will punish and correct, not write off forever.
whatthehellbook 5 months ago
@whatthehellbook
Yes, it is good news... It's good news for those God gives to Christ; It is good news because God is now wholly and justly free to save whom he chooses. If the 'Good news' is irrelevant to 90% of the people in this life, then it isn't even 'news' to begin with. The Bible doesn't have to make sense to you for it to be true - the Bible not making sense, or sounding distasteful is a reflection of YOUR depravity, not of a doctrines inadequacy.
aveyowyns 5 months ago
@aveyowyns If it's Good News for that few of mankind then God is cruel and was even more cruel by calling it Good News. That's the literal word used, Good News in the original translations. Are you really saying God chooses to save some and damn others? You're a Calvinist, no wonder the conversation is going this way. You need to open your mind and seek truth, not defend doctrine. There's a big difference brother.
whatthehellbook 5 months ago
@whatthehellbook
Yes, God does choose to save some. As Paul so eloquently put it: "Does the potter have no right over the clay to make from he same clump one vessel for honourable use and another for dishonourable use?"
No, I do not need to open my mind; you need to read the Bible.
aveyowyns 5 months ago
@aveyowyns I read the Bible continually. You are on dangerous ground if you're not willing to change your mind because you know your right. I don't have to be right or win a debate, blessings to you.
whatthehellbook 5 months ago
@whatthehellbook
Wait. I'm on dangerous ground if I'm not willing to change my mind because I know I'm right - yet you refuse just as vehemently to change YOUR mind!!
Yes, you do have to be right - being correct about doctrine is a fruit of a true Christian being lead by the Holy Spirit.
aveyowyns 5 months ago
@aveyowyns You can focus on being right, I'll focus on loving others.
whatthehellbook 5 months ago
@whatthehellbook
You do not love others if you refuse to preach to them the truth.
...what's more, you simply are unable to properly defend (with scripture) what you believe and then hide that fact behind a vale of humility
aveyowyns 5 months ago
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@aveyowyns 1 Timothy 4:10- This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.
That's like saying, "track is for everyone, especially those who like to run." Salvation is for all people, especially those who believe. Don't try to twist what it says, read it for what it actually says.
whatthehellbook 5 months ago
@whatthehellbook
That is indeed what 1 Timothy 4:10 states, but the chapter from which you managed to find this verse speaks nothing of salvation. Find me a verse that is taken from the context of salvation about what will be done to unbelievers or false converts.
aveyowyns 5 months ago
@aveyowyns Ok, here's the first of many. many verses:
Titus 2:11- For the grace of God has been revealed, bringing salvation to all people.
whatthehellbook 5 months ago
@whatthehellbook
'Bringing salvation to all people,' is not what the verse is trying to express. The verse is trying to express what the 'grace of God' accomplishes in the lives of those whom god saves. 'Bringing salvation to all people,' almost seems like it should be in brackets - because that is what the grace of God does; it brings salvation to all people, but that no way implies that the grace of God brings salvation to all of humanity, nor was salvation the context of the verse.
aveyowyns 5 months ago
@aveyowyns You're interpreting it to fit your beliefs instead of reading it for what it says. That's heresy by your definition.
whatthehellbook 5 months ago
@whatthehellbook
No, you're interpreting it to fit YOUR beliefs ... do you not understand that an atheist can do what you do, and find irrelevant verses (or phrases, more like it), to make God look like evil? What's more, you haven't even attempted to justify the 'Lord, Lord' verse, as well as the parable of the 10 Midas.
You are the heretic, friend.
aveyowyns 5 months ago
@aveyowyns You can call me a heretic but my faith is in Jesus Christ. He is my Savior because He died and rose from the dead for my sins. Without Him I'm lost and dying. So, am I still a heretic because we believe differently on the doctrine of eternal punishment?
whatthehellbook 5 months ago
@whatthehellbook
Yes, and there will be many who profess the same, and Jesus will tell them to 'depart from me, you workers of inequity.' I can just feel the love God has for the wicked emanating from that verse, can't you?
aveyowyns 5 months ago
@aveyowyns 1 Tim. 2:3-6- This is good and pleases God our Savior, who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth. For there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity—the man Christ Jesus. He gave his life to purchase freedom for everyone. This is the message God gave to the world at just the right time.
whatthehellbook 5 months ago
@whatthehellbook
Yes, God wants all of humanity to come to him - but the fact is, THEY WILL NOT, as Paul also expresses throughout his letters.
God did not want Adam to sin, but by your understanding of the relationship between what God wants and what God allows, God was therefore incapable of keeping Adam from sinning - and we know that is just not true; but it happened anyway!
aveyowyns 5 months ago
@aveyowyns That's a great thought but it's your thought and it's not what the text says. Say what the text says, not what you think it means.
whatthehellbook 5 months ago
@whatthehellbook
I did say what the text says - the text does NOT say that all of humanity will be saved and enter into heaven... "for the road is narrow and FEW will find it." This is what I ask of you! Provide me a verse UNDER THE CONTEXT OF SALVATION, that supports your beliefs about hell.
aveyowyns 5 months ago
@aveyowyns I've provided you 4 and they include the world salvation. What more do you want? Your heart and mind is closed.
whatthehellbook 5 months ago
@whatthehellbook
No, they were not under the context of salvation ... any thing even hinting at salvation were parenthetical at best, side references at the general message of the Gospel.
aveyowyns 5 months ago
@aveyowyns Romans 5:18- Yes, Adam’s one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christ’s one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone.
whatthehellbook 5 months ago
@whatthehellbook
No, not for everyone - only for the elect - as Romans 9 illustrates.
aveyowyns 5 months ago
@aveyowyns Philippians 2:9-11- Therefore, God elevated him to the place of highest honor and gave him the name above all other names, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
whatthehellbook . com
whatthehellbook 5 months ago
@whatthehellbook
Yes... Everyone will confess that Jesus is Lord - eventually. I can't remember who said this, but 'there will be no atheists, or Muslims, or Hindus in hell' ...by then they will know the truth.
aveyowyns 5 months ago
@aveyowyns Let's stick to the Scriptures, not what someone you cant remember said.
whatthehellbook 5 months ago
@whatthehellbook
Yes, let's stick to the scriptures... but let me remind you, it is only AFTER I prompted you to provide scripture, which you've fail to do, that you quit from your emotional 'would-you-do-that-to-your-child' hodge-podge; hypocrite.
aveyowyns 5 months ago
@aveyowyns So you just revert to name calling when you feel attacked? Is this Christ-like? I'm ending the discussion because I don't want to argue. I'll pray for you and ask you to do the same for me if you are also a believer. Sincere blessing to you and your family.
whatthehellbook . com
whatthehellbook 5 months ago
@whatthehellbook
You. are. a. hypocrite.
After a plethora of comments where you reverted to human reason and emotion rather than scripture, you had the gall to tell me to 'stick to scripture,' because I chose to add commentary to my explanation of scripture - so, you are a hypocrite.
Considering that Christ most often referred to the pharisees, who attacked him daily, as hypocrites and snakes, I would say my behaviour is VERY Christ-like.
Run, forest, run!
aveyowyns 5 months ago
@aveyowyns If you feel the need to call me a hypocrite, go ahead. I'm a Christian brother who reads the Scriptures daily and loves God with all my heart.
whatthehellbook 5 months ago
@whatthehellbook
You're still here? Even, after that grand 'holier-than-thou' exist? ...aren't you afraid of ruining the effect?
aveyowyns 5 months ago
@aveyowyns I'm not doing anything holier than thou, I'm trying to walk in love. You are calling me names and talking about how Christ-like you are. Read the posts below. Can we focus on what we do agree on?
whatthehellbook 5 months ago
@whatthehellbook You may call yourself a "christian" but you bring a false gospel and you may love the "god" you've made in your mind but that god is ficticious and powerless to save. I promise you that you do not have a single scripture that supports universal salvation.
gtrjunky 5 months ago
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@gtrjunky Read all the verses I listed below and I am a Christian. Jesus died for my sins and rose from the dead so I can have salvation in Him alone. Do you still want to say I'm not a Christian? Is that really your place? Are you God? ALlow Him to judge please.
whatthehellbook 5 months ago
@aveyowyns Or we could focus on spreading the Good News together. I see from your channel you're an English major, I am too.
whatthehellbook 5 months ago
@whatthehellbook
Once again: "Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
The parable of the Minas: “27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”
What Bible are you reading that allows you to so conveniently miss scriptures like these?
aveyowyns 5 months ago
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@whatthehellbook
Once again: "Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
The parable of the Minas: “27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”
What Bible are you reading that allows you to so conveniently miss scriptures like these?
aveyowyns 5 months ago
@aveyowyns Would you write off any of your children for all of eternity? Do you know how long eternity is? You think it's just of God to punish for all of eternity for 78 years lived on this Earth? That's justice? If that's justice, I want nothing to do with that god. Thankfully, that's not the true God and Savior- Jesus Christ.
whatthehellbook 5 months ago
@whatthehellbook
God makes it clear that the children of iniquity are not his children. We are born God enemy's; in enmity with God and spiritually dead. He also hates the wicked (Psalm 11).
If you kick a dog, it might yelp; if you kick a child, it'll cry; if you kick me, I'll probably punch you (or charge you with assault if I'm feeling pretty rational that particular day; if you kick a cop, you're arrested; if you attempt to kick the president, you're shot ... Sin against an infinitely...
aveyowyns 5 months ago
@aveyowyns So God created us enemies and wicked? What does that say about God? Are you really buying what you're selling?
whatthehellbook . com
whatthehellbook 5 months ago