How do you know you are encountering the Divine, whatever form it may be? When you see a man stop to help the one who utterly despises him, who would sooner attack him then look at him, and yet the man still takes time to help him, you have seen it.
The Divine is wherever humanity is at it's best. And you can find such places everywhere, even in the darkest, filthiest places.
And what grace it is to sometimes feel that immense warm love and kindness towards all humans, and in that way rise just a little bit towards the highness of Gods thoughts and ways. It is a true satisfactory experience. Love is for me the first and most important proof that God exists, because it goes against and defeats my very nature in its essence. In other words, I never knew I could love like this. Especially people that hate me, humiliate me, act angry with me, laugh at me. I love them.
For me, I know God dwells within me by virtue of the emptiness He fills in my soul that I know was there before I came to Him. C.S. Lewis said "The shadow proves the sunshine."
@MaxxTheMerciless The problem with that statement for me is that you can also see the sunlight. It is not hidden. The shadow is simply a consequence and not a revelation. Lewis had a gift for non-sequiturs.
@Mrmentalmadness123 No, you miss the point entirely, seeing only the physical and not the metaphor for what it is. The shadow, in this case, is that darkness that seeks to exist in spite of the light, but is destroyed as soon as the light is cast on it. It reveals the evil of the world that must remain hidden in darkness if it is to exist. The shadow proves the sunlight proves that there is evil because there is good.
@MaxxTheMerciless This is esoteric nonsense. The fact that you cannot prove or demonstrate that your god exists you have to resort to this type of sophistry to try to do so. This is a lousy example because we can see both the light and the shadow it gives rise to. I argue we cannot see god or anything you allege he gives rise to.
@Mrmentalmadness123 The proof is all around you. There is also the Necessary Cause proof, cosmological proofs, and the improbability of our existence being an accident. There is the existence of Christ, the Eucharistic Miracles, and other proofs, but you'd have to be willfully blind not to see or accept.
@MaxxTheMerciless No! I simply have to assert that there is no evidence of God! There is no PROOF of Christ, the eucharist or miracles. I am not blind. I see perfectlly well. I am okay with our existence being an accident but that doesn't mean we are immoral. You have no proof! END OF CHAT!
@Mrmentalmadness123 There's tons of proof. You just don't want to see it. There's historical proof of Christ, and there are lots of Eucharistic Miracles. There is no logic to our existence being an accident. It's way too improbable; no sane gambler would take that bet but an atheist to suit his own comfort and conceit. To believe otherwise is silly.
You would have to believe nothing made something, but that goes against the way the universe works. Think about that. Or not. Whatever.
@MaxxTheMerciless there is definatley a God, but there is NO LOGIC beleiving this earth is only 6000 yrs old. im telling you now,it simply is NOT!!! and if you think you belive that, your bullshiting yourself, YOU KNOW inside this earth has been here billions of years it has been proven beyond doubt,so be carefull about useing the word LOGIC, or you could find youself deeply embarrased
@sonyplaystation321 Well, I never said that I believed the Earth is 6,000 years old. I believe it is billions of years old. However, when I do my own research into a lot of this information, I find a lot of frauds and hoaxes driven toward one direction. For instance, carbon-14 dating. If you ever hear someone say that a bone is a million years old because they C14 Dated it, they're lying to you. Why? Because C14 has a half-life of 10,000 years. cont...
@sonyplaystation321 cont... My point is that to believe pop-science in everything is dangerous. Everyone should question the data they're presented, and show us how someone arrived at a conclusion. Everyone has an agenda, even scientists, and there are a lot of scientists who will continue to perpetuate the hoaxes of other scientists in order to promote their Atheistic view of the universe, hoping that nobody will do any research.
@sonyplaystation321 Also; the problem that a lot of Christians, Agnostics, and Atheists have is when they try to interpret the Bible literally. This is a relatively new phenomenon in the grander scope of history. Catholics have always interpreted the Bible as a library of books, with different genres, with some history, some legend, and a lot of Truth.
@MaxxTheMerciless sorry, i judged you, i thought you might have been one of those dogmatic, narrow ,arrogant ,self righteous, religeous, judgemental ass hole christians who try to put up piss-weak arguements about young earth creation but your obviously not. my bad.
@MaxxTheMerciless Emptiness is a part of the human condition. We are pattern seeking creatures. That fact does not mean there is a pattern to our existence. We can still be moral, kind and loving without belief in a creator God. We have survived as a species for at least 150,000 years without any intervention. If we destroy ourselves I have no doubt it will be because opposing sides believe God is talking directly to them. Religion retards us!
@Mrmentalmadness123 No, we can't. History has proven otherwise. The belief that humanity kills each other more over God than he does without Him is not only faulty, but flies in the face of the reality that Atheistic Regimes have committed. 100 million people murdered in one century, thanks to Atheism. But you never hear that. Nope, it's simply offered as an alternative, but is never examined for the crimes committed in its wake.
@MaxxTheMerciless oh fuck here we go...so now you're going to tell us Hitler is a socialist and also an atheist? Isn't it going to be awful when you find out he was catholic, the first pact he signed was with the vatican, and that the type of government you want is the closest thing the world has to Nazis? I can tell this one will be fun!
@HugeJohn51 Since you've repeatedly demonstrated to be a bigot, a liar, a hack and a coward, there's no point in talking to you. Yes, Hitler was an atheist. He hated the Church. He was a Socialist. He even said so - repeatedly. But, whatever myths makes you happy.
@MaxxTheMerciless It doesn't make me happy to see people like yourself doomed to repeat history because you deny the reality of it. Hitler repeatedly invoked god as did his supporters. His words and actions prove he was Christian, and although noone can know what he really felt, certainly the Catholic Church acted in concert with him. Even after the Nazis were defeated they still helped get Nazis out of Germany and into South America.
@HugeJohn51 Once again, you prove that not only are you not who you say you are, but you've proven to be a bigger idiot than I took you for. I mean, seriously, if you were really a poli-sci grad, you'd understand how people use window dressing to masquerade as something they're not. What's more, your ignorance of what Hitler did, and what the Church did, is also quite visible. But no, you're an idiot.
@sonyplaystation321 But, not all religions are the same. Christianity, on the whole, is very much aware of its sins. But there are also a lot of overblown arguments made in this regard to suit an agenda. A lot of myths flying around. For instance, about the Inquisitions. Most of what people know about that stems from Monty Python. But when you look into it, the reality is far different, and pales in comparison to what a pure secular world has done.
@MaxxTheMerciless Going from experience, i know quite a few christians, and i think(with a few exeptions) they are very uncomfortable people to be around, the sense of judgment you feel around some of them that you just dont feel around secular people, regardless of what they do good or bad, at least most of them take you as you are, and not look down on you as if they are in some way holier than you
@sonyplaystation321 That is true. Speaking as a Catholic I know precisely what you mean. I chalk a lot of that up to what I call Bad Sunday School. Yes, we are to be judgmental about bad things, and we're not to tolerate them, but to adopt the holier-than-thou attitude is wrong. For instance, I told a young girl who was dressing very inappropriately to go home and change, pointing out that how you dress can affect how you are respected. And she did, because it was right (and she was cold).
@sonyplaystation321 Also, by the same token, we tolerate too many evils in society. One evil is too much, but it's gotten out of hand thanks to the culture of relativism that fails to see how some evils affect societies at large. I think a lot of what you may be experiencing from a lot of Christians may be a form of frustration; they see the world going to Hell in a hand-basket, and are concerned they're not doing enough to stop it. And YET, they often don't do something about their own lives
@MaxxTheMerciless another thing i have noticed about christianity is that there is a lot of fighting within itself, ive observed on the internet christians squabelling with each other about stupid things like doctrine etc..., its like, if your not a christian,your a devil, if you are a christian , your STILL a devil, because you dont go to whatever church they go to. if thats what being a christian is, then who wants to be like them anyway.
@sonyplaystation321 That's been going on since the Reformation. Heck, you ought to see what the Colonists thought of one another before the American Revolution. You had Quakers referring to Anglicans in New England as "the flock of Cain." LOL. Prior to the Reformation you didn't see this too much because the Church had a hierarchy, and the Church never had any real squabbles with the Eastern Orthodox Church beyond the Great Schism anyway.
@sonyplaystation321 And that's one of the reasons why I leave doctrine to Priests. I'm not ordained, though I know a lot of theology. I try not to get into discussions with other Christian denominations about their doctrines, even if I think they're somewhat wrong. Actually, I personally think, with some exceptions, that most of our squabbles are due to misunderstandings. For instance, a lot of Protestants will say that Catholics worship Mary. We don't. We venerate her and the saints..cont
@sonyplaystation321 cont..we venerate those people because they are examples of how to lead a holy life. We don't accept a sacrifice on behalf of Mary, though we pray for her intercession on our behalf. By the same token, I think a lot of Catholics misunderstand Protestants along the same sorts of lines.
@sonyplaystation321 Lot of bad blood, and when you break it down it's mainly about power, not faith. There's a lot of jealousy of the Catholic Church because we're the largest Christian denomination. There's quite a bit of condescension and incredulity leveled at Protestants for what one can see as "Christian-Lite." But, we'd all let bygones be bygones if there weren't a lot of power at play behind the scenes that use doctrine as an excuse for their machinations.
@sonyplaystation321 Depending on who you read, we have anywhere between 500 million and 1 billion worldwide. Now, I don't know how they entirely arrived at those figures, but I'm not necessarily going to deny them either. I'm not sure if they count only the baptised or those who declare themselves as Catholic on the census, or what.
@MaxxTheMerciless also, as a christian(or catholic or whatever) do you really beleive in all that tongues and holy laughter etc...? i think they look like the biggest clowns on the planet. lol
@sonyplaystation321 No. In fact, I didn't believe it even before I became Catholic. The whole bit about speaking in Tongues is from the book of Acts, where, during Pentacost, the Holy Spirit descends on the apostles, and they were able to speak in all kinds of languages. This was so they'd be able to spread the Gospel everywhere. This means that those clowns who are babbling in "tongues" fail to see that the Holy Spirit doesn't fill someone with gibberish.
@MaxxTheMerciless have you heard of a preacher called benny hinn? isnt he a catholic?(all i know for sure, is that he is probably THE biggest lunatic ive ever seen)
@sonyplaystation321 I've heard of him. He's Pentecostal, I believe. Catholics have no Pastors. The difference between a Pastor and a Priest is that a Priest presents a Sacrifice on an Altar. A Pastor doesn't.
There's a bit more reverence for God and the faith in a Catholic Church than what you see the likes of Hinn do, which, if you note, mainly focuses on him and his antics. True, not all Pentecostals, I'm sure, are like that, but that's the kind of thing that drove me to Catholicism.
@sonyplaystation321 And, I particularly don't like a lot of those odd-denominational (by the way, there are like 40,000 non Catholic denominations out there since the Reformation) churches doing this kind of thing. Similarly, I sometimes think that the Milinarian sects (hope I spelled that right) stress apocalyptic prophecy too much. 7th Day Adventists, in my experience, seem to go a bit overboard in that department.
@MaxxTheMerciless i have actually been to a few catholic church services when i was younger,but can barely remember what it was like,i have a large philipino step family, that are all catholic, and they draged me along to church sometimes, i dont beleive in their faith, but they are certanly not as judgemental or pushy as some of the fundamental christians i know.
@sonyplaystation321 There's a lot of strife within the Catholic Church too. Since Vatican II, I've noticed there's been a great deal of feuding over how we do Mass, changes in doctrine (such as the idea of women priests), and notably the Church Sexual Abuse Scandals. I'm a Catechuman, a recent convert to the Church, and I never realized how much strife there was until I was explained what was going on first-hand by a good priest who helped me along the way.
@MaxxTheMerciless this will have to be my last comment because of other things i need to do, i guess at the end of the day we will all find out whos right and whos wrong in the end, but if christians want to convert me, they will have to do a better job than what they are doing now, because i know so many, im quite used to people trying to force it down my throat and failing misserably. you seem ok though, ill let you go now, it was good talking to you.
@sonyplaystation321 Good talking to you, too. What I tend to tell my fellow Christians on how to convert someone is very simple; just be yourselves, don't be afraid to speak out on things, promote excellence and decency in society when you can. But, what converted me was my own research, plus what I felt was a populist movement within some of the other denominations I had been to. In other words - Do Good things, speak the Truth, and let people make up their own minds.
@sonyplaystation321 I'll be you didn't know that in over 80% of cases involving an Inquisition (which is a court of inquiry, hence the name), the accused was set free? That, if you were ever accused of heresy (of which, 99% of the time was done by some layperson who just didn't like you), you prayed for an Inquisitor to come and hear your case before the local mob and nobility murdered you.
@sonyplaystation321 You have to put things, also, into context and some perspective. Did the Church do some bad things? Of course, and I'm not defending that. On the other hand, the Church may have been established by Jesus Christ, it is made up of human beings who make mistakes, just like any other human institution. The Church also did some magnificent things that our modern world takes so much for granted; but you'll never hear someone like HugeJohn51 point that out.
I see God (and I feel Him). For me, He's a beautiful mosaic of bright and glistening gems. The gems are everything precious to humanity, without which we cannot survive. They are Love, mercy, kindness, compassion, forgiveness, comfort, hope, wisdom, peace... and all that is beautiful which our hearts treasure. May the bounty of His great Love, our Lord Jesus Christ, soften our hardened hearts with His graces, so that we remain close with our Father, in, through and with Him. Amen
@BritishSnail I would like to meet this guy. He sounds great. Maybe too good to be true? Good grief you have this indoctrination stuff really bad! Have you read the Old Testament - the God in that is far from the chap you describe?
@csosa1978 Good. Now you're ready to engage what serious religious people mean by "God." As long as you imagine God to be some supreme reality within the world, you will end up in an atheist position, for there is indeed no evidence for such a being. But the one thing the creator of the universe cannot be is an item within the universe. Once you grasp that, you're ready for some real theologizing.
@wordonfirevideo If that is what you mean by god the we are done because it's indistinguishable from imaginary, and theologizing (if that's even a word) sounds a lot like imagining shit up which I find very little use for.
@csosa1978 Actually, the unconditioned act of being itself is the conclusion of a rational demonstration, the argument from contingency. In brief, contingent or dependent reality must rely, ultimately, on some being which is not dependent, which is its own reason for existing. This ultimate reality is what Catholic philosophy means by God.
@wordonfirevideo I just honestly do not at all understand that first sentence. The rest of it sounds a bit like the "uncaused cause" but why must it rely on a being? who decided this and why does this even make sense to you? How does positing this work to prove the existence and what is god's role in this "catholic philosophy" of god?
@wordonfirevideo Also you mention catholic, which I was for over 25 years and never heard god described this way. I want to know how you get from contingent being to the god of the bible if indeed you make this leap.. Looking at what you wrote so far and even if I accepted all of it at best I would come out the other end a Deist.
@csosa1978 Not so! The God of the Bible is described consistently as the creator of the entire universe. And this is precisely what the unconditioned act of being itself is: the ground of finite existence, the reason why there is something rather than nothing.
@wordonfirevideo Is the bible unique in describing a creator of the universe? Others have holy books with them also and you don't subscribe to any of them. I am questioning how do you make this connection to your god? I would imagine any made up god throughout time that was written to have created the universe could lay claim to your argument. The bible also describes a god that loves and is jealous concerned with worship and foreskins... How is this consistent with a non-contingent "being"?
@csosa1978 Well, I'm taking things one step at a time. Of course many other religious and philosophical traditions have spoken of a Creator God, and to that extent they're right. The Bible--Old Testament and New--adds an infinite amount of refinement to this basic picture.
@wordonfirevideo right, so cause for the universe you call it god I call it (not yet known). I am still stuck as to how then you get form there to your holy book and god? Refinement? The god described in the Bible is a monster that ordered mass murder and approved of rape and slavery. In the remote possibility that a god actually existed, the claim that the Bible describes this god is extraordinarily blasphemous. My problems only start here if we ever get into the doctrine...but one step at..
@csosa1978 Well call it what you want, as long as you acknowledge that it is the non-contingent source of contingent existence, for in saying that, you are admitting that it is properly unconditioned and hence limitless in its ontological perfection. And friend, could I ask you to bracket those problematic passages in the Bible for a time? I don't want you to fall into the trap of thinking that they tell the whole story in regard to God.
@wordonfirevideo I don't know about all that as I said it is unknown. It may have any number of properties or not. I will not mention the bible, but we are still at the place where I don't know how you (by you I mean believers) get from "a cause for the universe..." to your specific holy book and god. I am not trolling or trying to argue or upset, I really want to know what good reason is there for that leap. I just haven't been told or explained this part of it. Thank you for taking the time.
@csosa1978 The God of the Bible is perfect, intelligent, loving, provident, and creative, and gives his name as "I am who I am," all of which is utterly congruent with what we know through the argument from contingency. Reason, in other words, predisposes us to accept the revelation given in the Bible.
@wordonfirevideo The god of the bible makes mistakes, feels regret is jealous, spiteful and can't come up with a better way to fix his mistakes than by exterminating the human race (creative? really?) It would seem to me reason would compel us to reject these revelations of a very man made god.
I find Fr Barron, charming, charismatic, poetic and intelligent yet unconvincing. I would have liked him to give a specific example of seeing 'God out of the corner of his eye' or indirectly so to speak. In this video he was addressing the poetic mind and not the intellect - a bit like whispering sweet nothings in a woman's ear. She adores it but really much of what is said is insubstantial and she should be wary of taking it too seriously.
@wordonfirevideo My request was that you give a specific example of seeing God out of the corner of your eye as it were. I was not asking you to prove the existence of God. If someone told you that God had spoken to them and you questioned whether they really had heard God, would you be satisfied if they told you to look up the argument from contingency. What you are being asked to do is support your claim that you can perceive God albeit indirectly. You are making a personal claim.
@wordonfirevideo I just purchased the Catholicism project! It's awesome and very well done. Great video. I've been studying Catholic theology and philosophy on my own and I have enjoyed your video clips. I like the arguement from contigency especially in reference to God's unique name YHWH. Great source of contemplation. God bless!
@wordonfirevideo I just purchased the Catholicism project! It's awesome and very well done. Great video. I've been studying Catholic theology and philosophy on my own and I have enjoyed your video clips. I like the arguement from contigency especially in reference to God's unique name YHWH. Great source of contemplation. God bless!
@zearro53 And the poetic mind does not spring from the intellect? The lover is touched by insubstantial sweet-nothings because they point to a truth beyond words. There is something very deep in the human spirit that seeks to know of truth beyond what can be grasped by the senses. Thus the perennial questions; - Why am i here? How did this all happen? - Is there really something "out there" or do humans conjure up images of god(s) to satisfy social and psychological needs? see next...
@oldschoolsaint continuation, see previous. .. These are questions I've grappled with my whole life. I have been drawn back to Christianity (Catholicism) because I find a CONCRETE answer to these questions in the person of Jesus. He is where intuition and faith meet with our common sense of reality; with the flesh and blood of history. I think this is what Father Barron is driving at.
@oldschoolsaint I appreciate you believe you have found a concrete answer. Basically the good Father states that we know we are encountering God when we encounter him indirectly through virtues i.e beauty and justice. This says nothing at all. One may as well say, we know we are encountering virtues when we encounter virtues. One cannot conclude from that there is an omnipotent, omniscient divine being there. He may as well be encountered when we encounter evil Isaiah 45:7.
@zearro53 Z - We do not say that God, beauty and love are one in the same. We say that God is the source of beauty and love. Beauty and love are manifestations of God but not God Himself. I know of no one who claims that there is a knock down argument for the divine being you reference. The argument for God, the Christian God, is a cumulative one built on theology, cosmology, science, and, most importantly, history. That is why we say our faith is not blind but rather informed.
@oldschoolsaint . I have no idea where the poetic mind springs from. Insubstantial means without substance which is hardly how truth can be described. I admit to the possibility that there may be truths that cannot be grasped by the senses. However, that raises the question how are these truths received and how are they communicated if not through the senses?
Mathematics is completely abstract yet it reveals deep truths. By what sense do we grasp it? All of the arguments about God's existence lead to the same question;how is it that man can come to know truth? What counts as evidence? The answer to this is always a faith claim. For how does one prove, for example, that truth can only be known through a physical examination of the natural world? This is why most of these arguments go absolutely nowhere. We are not even speaking the same language.
@oldschoolsaint Your reply is an argument that there are truths beyond our senses. As I have already allowed for that possibility, I do not see the point of your argument and the example of mathematics or this talk about examining the physical world as the solel source of truth. If there are truths beyond our senses, how would we know about them? We can grasp the possibility of such truths but with what do we perceive them? If you don't know the answer to the question, just say so.
@oldschoolsaint Re-mathematics. It is a law that can be demonstrated and requires no faith. Whenever you count one orange and one orange you will always see the same number of oranges in total. It can be demonstrated repeatedly. And this repetition leads to certainty. This repetition is not seen with regard to God encounters. Prayers are not always answered if ever.
@zearro53 ...Barron didn't convince you because he does not know God himself. His love is the catholic church..totally not the same thing as knowing and loving God. Don't be moved by his flowery speech.. The bible calls this type of speaking sounding brass and tinkling cymbals.
@zearro53 ...The Body of Christ. Those who accept Jesus as Saviour - not mary, not the pope, not any dead saint or idol, but Jesus alone. Those who follow the teachings of the Bible.
@bella50008 So when did God tell you this?or if he did not tell you who did he tell and why do you believe them? By the way, most Catholics would fulfill the above criteria outlined by you.. I have yet to meet one that claims the pope, Mary, dead saints or idols are their saviour. Finally which Bible are you talking about - orthodox, catholic, protestant, Mormon etc and name one person who has followed all its teachings?
@zearro53 ..1) About an hour ago. No actually, I have known for years since I read the scriptures and use the brain God gave me, guided by the intelligence of the Holy Spirit.You may want to try this yourself.
2) Most catholics live in direct defiance of the criteria I outlined.
3) I have encountered countless catholics who refer to "mary" as saviour, as have you- stop lying and look in the mirror.
4)The Christian Bible - King James Version to be exact. All others you mentioned are heretical.
@bella50008 How do you know when scriptures come from God and when they do not? On what basis do you dismiss other scriptures as false and on what basis do you assert that yours are true? Who decides what goes into the scriptures and how do you know they have the authority to make such a decision? Finally is it possible that your God given brain may be mistaken or is it infallible?. Also, I would ask that you stick to reason and not start making accusations - such as "liar". A non-Catholic
@zearro53...1)"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.." 2 Tim 3:16.
2) Any book, doctrine, catechism, prayer, practice, tradition that contradicts the word of God is false.
3)See #1
4)It is not only possible but 100% true that my brain is fallible, that is why I submit to the intelligence and guidance of the Holy Spirit - He is never wrong.
5)Don't like the answer... don't ask the question.
@bella50008 Obviously if there is a God and he says something then he has said it. Your quote from Timothy says no more than that. What I am asking you is how you know God has said it. For example Mohammed may have the word of God and Timothy not. Further how do you know you are being guided by the Holy Spirit but instead by a demon turning you away from the truth of say Islam? First you have to establish what is God's word before you can say what contradicts it. Again how do you know?
@zearro53 .."First you have to establish what is God's word before you can say what contradicts it."
No I don't. I've no obigation to follow your mandates. I have given you scripture..in which I believe. You are free to believe that said scripture regarding the God of the Bible, or believe the Quran, or nothing at all..totally up to you. But unless you subscribe to the theory that the delicate intricacies of life and space are due to a big bang then you too have faith in a god. Just choose.
@bella50008 Well, you claim to have given me scripture and the Muslims claim to have given me scripture. I am simply asking you to demonstrate that you have the real scriptures and not the Muslims. If you don't know the answer just say so. Now remember you said that a person who does not know God cannot convince another . "Fr Barron didn't convince you because he does not know God himself" You have not convinced me.
@bella50008 ."First you have to establish what is God's word before you can say what contradicts it."Me.
"No I don't. I've no obigation to follow your mandates". Bella
It is not a mandate but an appeal to the laws of logic. It is also an appeal to the teachings that you say that only true Christians follow. "...and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear." 1 Peter 3:15. How does one know the Bible comes from God
@bella50008 Mother Mary, the Pope, and Saints are appreciated, respected, and honored as they should be. Catholics do not pray to Mary or the Saints for salvation. They only ask them to pray with or for them to Jesus. So that through their divine relationship they may also ask for whatever we need from God. This is similar to when you ask your friends, family, church...to pray for/with you. Ultimately, you are humbling yourself before God even more by doing this to pray to Jesus Christ.
@bella50008 "And I say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church." Which Church do you think Jesus was talking about? The Anglican Church? Or maybe the Methodist Church? Perhaps it was the United Reformed Church...
@gwalj ...you need to study the word of God for yourself instead of being led with a hook in your nose by evil men who preach false doctrines. Jesus was not saying the "catholic church" or Peter was the foundation...Jesus is foundation of the true church - the body of believers who follow the teachings of Christ. God gave Peter this revelation of who Jesus is ...not who Peter is. Don't be a heretic all your life.
I am not religious, as FAITH is not a religion, totally different things. I was being asked many times - was I religious? Of course not, I am a believer.
And to me(no disrespect as You may be totally different) Catholicism always seemed as a religion, cold candle lights, empty prayers learned by hard, no flight and sometimes - no God..
Fr. Barron, please, tell me why it is so important name yourself as a Catholic, Christian, Baptist(....)etc?It clearly does not indicate that Catholics have a different God from Christians.Personally to me it seems more like a label, plus it provokes believers getting into a certain fight, irrelevant debates. I've been labeled as a Christian since I was 16, so now its 7 years,but it doesn't make sense. I am looking for a God, not a copied God,created by human,their own opinions and their systems
Fr. Barron, you say that we seek justice, but aren't satisfied because we really desire the transcendent justice. I eat, but I'm hungry a while later. So I eat, and later I'm hungry again. It seems I just can't be satisfied by the food of this world. Does this mean that there is some transcendent "food itself" that corresponds to my desire for physical nourishment, just as you believe there is a transcendent justice that corresponds to our desires?
@grunderlyme You're missing my point here. I'm not talking about myself. I'm talking about the number of people who (1) have never heard of Jesus and never will (2) have heard of Jesus and Krishna and Allah but don't have the time (3) have heard of them but don't understand the intellectual debate. The more complex the arguments get the more people is left behind because they are not clever enough.
@DrHowbeit What "point"? So what if someone has never "heard" of Christ before? Just because a person errs because he didn't know any better, or made an otherwise sound judgment given his psychological condition or culture, doesn't condemn him to hell or something. I worry about those who HAVE heard, been given multiple chances, but too stubborn or lazy to use the gifts God gave them, or just choose to ignore His call. God doesn't judge us for non-culpable ignorance. He knows our hearts.
@DrHowbeit You have no "point" to argue here. The crazy Westboro Baptist Church believes they are the only ones going to heaven. Does citing such a fact about what they believe solve anything?--No.
You would rather whine about such a moot topic without getting off your ass and doing anything about it. Start your own journey now, and stop wasting everyone's time.
@DrHowbeit But this is just false. A person is not "left behind" because he's not some great philosopher or scholar. Christ's love is open to everyone, irrespective of their intellectual prowess. God expects everyone to use the gifts and talents he gave them, wisely, in proportion to their capacity to use them consistent with their "calling" in life--But woe to those who squander their gifts, because "even what he has will be taken away."--Matt 13:12.
@3rosesred Ignore DrHowbeit. His pretended allegiance to finding the truth is betrayed by his choice to stay here and pick on you rather than read all those philosophers he himself mentioned yesterday but won't get off his ass to read. As a graduate in philosophy, I've read all those authors--but like many, he refuses to get his hands dirty expecting a magic trick instead--He's not after understanding, but a cheap fight, one whose level of intellectual rigor he knows won't exceed 500 words
@grunderlyme I'm not looking for a fight. I'm looking for a compelling argument for Christianity. Far from everyone have the intellectual capability to understand the theological arguments going back and forth. Most people aren't that educated. Most people are busy making ends meet. Most people haven't even heard about these arguments. Many haven't heard about Jesus. What about them?
@DrHowbeit You're not going to get a "compelling argument" for Christianity in 500 words. There's no easy shortcut. You have to dive into the literature already mentioned here. You know as well as I do that no single argument will demonstrate the truth of one religion over the myriad of others. Conversion is a life-long journey--one simultaneously requiring a critical mind and a strong desire to find the truth. If you don't think the Truth is at least possible, you will find nothing.
@DrHowbeit I recommend you get started reading all those works you mentioned right away, including those Hindu authors. Comparative religious studies is a great place to start, but don't forget employing criticial reason in your investigations. That's exactly how I did it--but it takes time. And NOW is the time. God will never find you culpable so long as you keep searching. You baptise yourself by your own desire (official Church teaching). Good luck.
@grunderlyme At least it's nice to get a reply without an insult for a change. However, I still have to argue that a lot of people aren't capable of making sense of the philosophical arguments. Nor do they have the time. Most of us are working, raising families and trying to keep this planet in spin. It's practically impossible to have a world where everyone is reading books fulltime.
@DrHowbeit I know plenty of individuals not in the academy--full-time parents, construction workers, etc-- who find the time to read. You can find basic apologetics of any religion and start there (Peter Kreeft, e.g.). Having a PhD is not necessary to find God. Again, if God is the God of love, then the desire for God is what matters because you won't find what you're not looking for if you're not looking for it. God does not reveal himself to those who don't care or don't want to know.
@DrHowbeit I don't believe anyone has "zero" time for God. People don't need more time, but to re-evaluate their priorities. You make the time. Instead of watching Reality TV for 30 minutes, you could make the effort to read a short passage from the "The Imitation of Christ." Or start talking to God in prayer, warts and all--no matter how silly you think it is--since prayer is God's Language.
@grunderlyme "Having a PhD" or at least a suitable education is well found if you are going to analyze for instance Kant's refutation of the ontological argument. You also have to analyze the refutations of the refutation as well as the the refutations of the refutations of the refutation. The philosophers will reject attempts to understand these complex issues if the investigator lacks proper education. Doesn't sit well if God is supposed to be for everyman.
@DrHowbeit God IS for every man. What's the problem?
Kant didn't "refute" the ontological argument. "Refutation" is technical term in logic meaning a "proof by contradiction." Kant just rejected the notion that "existence" functioned as a predicate that can be affirmed or denied of a subject of a sentence. Logic 200 yrs later agrees. "There exists an X such that..." is now a quantifier--not a predicate.
Aquinas 700 yrs ago also rejected the ontological argument for similar reasons.
@DrHowbeit "There you go. See how easy it is to misinterpret things? You really expect people without college education to make sense of Kant?"
--Well, if you truly do have a deep desire to understand what's out there, then I guess you better get started. It does you no good wasting your time whining about it.
It's obvious to me that you are the type of person who wants to be spoonfed without doing any actual work. Sorry, punchy, it ain't gonna happen.
I suppose most people can make room for a bit of Bible studies a couple of times a week. That's about it. Keep in mind that Christ is one of many gods. What I'm talking about is the monumental task of studying all religions in one lifetime. Try debating a muslim. My guess is he's going to bash your understanding of the Quran.
@DrHowbeit "can make room for a bit of Bible studies a couple of times a week. That's about it."
--I doubt it. You just have to priortize. If you work too hard because you like to take a lot of vacations, buy fancy cars, and eat out all the time--then you clearly care more about living large than living for God.
"monumental task of studying all religions in one lifetime"
--I wouldn't call it "monumental." But it does require time. Looks like you better get started.
@DrHowbeit "Try debating a muslim. My guess is he's going to bash your understanding of the Quran"
--I have at least 2 devout muslim friends, both of whom I've known for over 6-8 years. We talk this stuff all time. I just don't find their evidence convincing. I am not closed to dialogue.
Please don't drop empty retorts about the Quran if you yourself are not willing to back them up. This is a total waste of everyone's time without an actual case. You better get to work.
@3rosesred Hi, how are you? I'm not gonna dispute this too strongly, because I kinda said I wouldn't, but if I was religious I would find your answer disturbing. If I trust the Church that means I trust authorities on earth not God himself. God is supposed to be a personal God.
Secondly, 2K is not that much of an argument. There are religions older than that for which people have suffered.
Thirdly, why do you call him "Father"? See Matthew 23:1-9.
@wordonfirevideo The description is a bit vague, don't you think? There are many Gods to choose from and call "the creative ground of existence". Perhaps it's a God we don't know yet.
@DrHowbeit Is Faith that we 'choose a God' to believe in, or can it rather follow a process of finding the reasonable grounds for Faith via intellectual discovery?
@JamesSmith86 I don't know, but it's a fairly good question. Some believers claim you have to get struck by faith, it's a revelation. Barron says in a different video that faith chooses you.
@JamesSmith86 Making an intellectual discovery seems difficult. There are 21 major religions. Thousands of christian denominations. You have to catch up on 2000 years of Bible studies (for christianity alone). That's a life's work in itself. You have to read all the other scriptures and their interpretations. Do research on history, archeology, philosophy, apologetics, science, epistemology, psychology, cultural impact and so forth. There's not enough lifetime.
@DrHowbeit Faith itself is a supernatural act requiring preemptive grace, but the intellectual framework which grace builds on is not so difficult to find as it would seem. A complete reading and analysis of all the things you mentioned is not necessary, but rather consideration of the fundamental questions: What is necessary for the existence of contingent being (i.e. the Universe), etc. Study Blessed John Newmann and pray to the True God to reveal Himself and His Will in your life
@JamesSmith86 "Faith itself is a supernatural act" What's your source?
"pray to the True God to reveal Himself" Suppose I have a religious experience, how do I know which God it is?
"Study Blessed John Newmann". There you go. I've been told to study formal logic, modal logic, Swineburne, Plantinga, C.S. Lewis, Thomas Aquinas, Leibniz, Descartes, Hume, Anselm, King James Bible etc. That's for christianity alone. I must also take into account the debunkers and those debunking the debunkers.
@DrHowbeit Re: "Faith", that is the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. Search "Catholic Encyclopedia Faith" and you'll find an excellent article on it written in the early 20th century.
God can lead you to Himself and to the worship proper to Him, if you ask Him to. He will reveal the True Religion to you if you seek Him with all your heart.
@DrHowbeit That God is One, and that there cannot be many First Principles is understood by reason. PRAYER is key here--if you don't begin this dialogue, even if you know only that you're intending to communicate with the greatest possible Being than you will never know Him. Pray to God to reveal Himself to you. He doesn't need any help, but He will wait for you to ask...
@DrHowbeit Deut 6:5 says "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole strength." Seeking God is a process that involves your whole life. Keep praying--ask Him for the grace to know Him and know yourself. Be like the poor widow and the unjust judge (Luke 18:8).
@DrHowbeit Also read. The great works of authors such as St. Augustine aren't just monumental classics of spirituality--REGARDLESS of your faith tradition--but also fundamental documents of Western civilization. You will benefit from picking up and reading some of his "Confessions", or perhaps even Dante Alighieri's "Divine Comedy."
@JamesSmith86 Have you read Ibn Sina, al-Farabi, Ibn Rushd, Swami Abhedananda, Swami Dayananda Saraswati, Kumārila Bhaṭṭa, Dharmakirti, Vasubandhu or Dōgen Zenji?
@DrHowbeit By referencing these, I presume you mean that they offer potential counter-messages to the teaching of the Catholic Church. They seem to mainly be Eastern mystics, though, and as such their angle is different from the Church's. We believe that knowledge of Christ and His teachings is obtained through the teaching, governing and sanctifying Body He founded, rather than through private, cultural or otherwise localized spiritualities.
@JamesSmith86 I don't know about counter-messages. I just named a tiny fraction of philosophers in other religions. There are libraries of information to plow through. That's my point. If you start reading you better read the "right" religion from the start since there aren't enough time to study all.
@DrHowbeit You gave up before you even began, so what's the point here? You already made up your mind the truth is impossible, in spite of our efforts to point you in the right direction. This defeatist attitude makes me think of what Einstein said, "If you think you can, you can. And if you think you can’t, you’re right." Don't you have better things to do than waste your time with religion? You won. So move along.
@DrHowbeit Many esteemed thinkers and men have ultimately arrived at the Catholic Church from diverse religious backgrounds. These include John Henry Newman, G.K. Chesterton, and others. I think you would really enjoy reading the latter's "Orthodoxy" -- it's tremendously well written and engaging, plus humorous and personal. So my point is that an authentic search for God ultimately seeks Him in His Church, but sometimes circumstances (society, culture, etc.) do not permit a visible conversion..
@JamesSmith86 Thanks for the tips. Those two seem fairly credible. At the same time it's easy to return the favor and dish out thinkers that have left the catholic church, Auguste Comte and Michel Foucault for instance.
@DrHowbeit "At the same time thinkers have left the catholic church, Auguste Comte and Michel Foucault"
--So? Many thinkers like Augustine and Newman have joined the Catholic Church. If you sincerely believe finding God is impossible, then you're right. Your own life thus becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy because you never got started. As a living testimony to the trivial truth that those who never seek never find, you quite efficiently demonstrated your point. You won. So move along
@grunderlyme It's not about winning. It's about what is true and what is not. I agree that those who never seek shall never find. I also believe that those who decide beforehand what to find will find just that. Especially if it's unintelligible. Did it ever occur to you that you're missing out on the real quest? Whatever, I'm moving along then.
@DrHowbeit "I also believe that those who decide beforehand what to find will find just that."
--So you cannot have a tentative hypothesis while you go about collecting the data? What's wrong with that?
If the search for God is such a doomed enterprise, then so is science. Theory always guides what you decide to look for, and where. No scientist would know what to look for, or which data set was relevant to his hypothesis, if his hypothesis wasn't guiding his research. duh!
--But gravity is also "unintelligible." And no one can picture 11 dimensions. But that doesn't stop scientists from proposing mathematical Laws describing the behavior of bodies in orbit, or mathematical descriptions of multiple dimensions--just as philosophers have been giving logical arguments about God's Nature for thousands of yrs. We are not totally in the dark. Give me a break.
You just like make excuses for not doing any real intellectual work
How do you know you are encountering the Divine, whatever form it may be? When you see a man stop to help the one who utterly despises him, who would sooner attack him then look at him, and yet the man still takes time to help him, you have seen it.
The Divine is wherever humanity is at it's best. And you can find such places everywhere, even in the darkest, filthiest places.
FollowerOfTheGods 2 weeks ago
And what grace it is to sometimes feel that immense warm love and kindness towards all humans, and in that way rise just a little bit towards the highness of Gods thoughts and ways. It is a true satisfactory experience. Love is for me the first and most important proof that God exists, because it goes against and defeats my very nature in its essence. In other words, I never knew I could love like this. Especially people that hate me, humiliate me, act angry with me, laugh at me. I love them.
blablabla1864 3 weeks ago
Good grief!
Mrmentalmadness123 3 weeks ago
Wouldn't an omnipotent God end this daft bickering with some display of strength? He's allegedly done it before.
Mrmentalmadness123 3 weeks ago
For me, I know God dwells within me by virtue of the emptiness He fills in my soul that I know was there before I came to Him. C.S. Lewis said "The shadow proves the sunshine."
MaxxTheMerciless 1 month ago
@MaxxTheMerciless The problem with that statement for me is that you can also see the sunlight. It is not hidden. The shadow is simply a consequence and not a revelation. Lewis had a gift for non-sequiturs.
Mrmentalmadness123 3 weeks ago
@Mrmentalmadness123 No, you miss the point entirely, seeing only the physical and not the metaphor for what it is. The shadow, in this case, is that darkness that seeks to exist in spite of the light, but is destroyed as soon as the light is cast on it. It reveals the evil of the world that must remain hidden in darkness if it is to exist. The shadow proves the sunlight proves that there is evil because there is good.
MaxxTheMerciless 3 weeks ago
@MaxxTheMerciless This is esoteric nonsense. The fact that you cannot prove or demonstrate that your god exists you have to resort to this type of sophistry to try to do so. This is a lousy example because we can see both the light and the shadow it gives rise to. I argue we cannot see god or anything you allege he gives rise to.
Mrmentalmadness123 3 weeks ago
@Mrmentalmadness123 The proof is all around you. There is also the Necessary Cause proof, cosmological proofs, and the improbability of our existence being an accident. There is the existence of Christ, the Eucharistic Miracles, and other proofs, but you'd have to be willfully blind not to see or accept.
MaxxTheMerciless 3 weeks ago
@MaxxTheMerciless No! I simply have to assert that there is no evidence of God! There is no PROOF of Christ, the eucharist or miracles. I am not blind. I see perfectlly well. I am okay with our existence being an accident but that doesn't mean we are immoral. You have no proof! END OF CHAT!
Mrmentalmadness123 3 weeks ago
@Mrmentalmadness123 There's tons of proof. You just don't want to see it. There's historical proof of Christ, and there are lots of Eucharistic Miracles. There is no logic to our existence being an accident. It's way too improbable; no sane gambler would take that bet but an atheist to suit his own comfort and conceit. To believe otherwise is silly.
You would have to believe nothing made something, but that goes against the way the universe works. Think about that. Or not. Whatever.
MaxxTheMerciless 3 weeks ago
@MaxxTheMerciless there is definatley a God, but there is NO LOGIC beleiving this earth is only 6000 yrs old. im telling you now,it simply is NOT!!! and if you think you belive that, your bullshiting yourself, YOU KNOW inside this earth has been here billions of years it has been proven beyond doubt,so be carefull about useing the word LOGIC, or you could find youself deeply embarrased
sonyplaystation321 3 weeks ago
@sonyplaystation321 Well, I never said that I believed the Earth is 6,000 years old. I believe it is billions of years old. However, when I do my own research into a lot of this information, I find a lot of frauds and hoaxes driven toward one direction. For instance, carbon-14 dating. If you ever hear someone say that a bone is a million years old because they C14 Dated it, they're lying to you. Why? Because C14 has a half-life of 10,000 years. cont...
MaxxTheMerciless 3 weeks ago
@sonyplaystation321 cont... My point is that to believe pop-science in everything is dangerous. Everyone should question the data they're presented, and show us how someone arrived at a conclusion. Everyone has an agenda, even scientists, and there are a lot of scientists who will continue to perpetuate the hoaxes of other scientists in order to promote their Atheistic view of the universe, hoping that nobody will do any research.
MaxxTheMerciless 3 weeks ago
@sonyplaystation321 Also; the problem that a lot of Christians, Agnostics, and Atheists have is when they try to interpret the Bible literally. This is a relatively new phenomenon in the grander scope of history. Catholics have always interpreted the Bible as a library of books, with different genres, with some history, some legend, and a lot of Truth.
MaxxTheMerciless 3 weeks ago
@MaxxTheMerciless sorry, i judged you, i thought you might have been one of those dogmatic, narrow ,arrogant ,self righteous, religeous, judgemental ass hole christians who try to put up piss-weak arguements about young earth creation but your obviously not. my bad.
sonyplaystation321 3 weeks ago
@MaxxTheMerciless Emptiness is a part of the human condition. We are pattern seeking creatures. That fact does not mean there is a pattern to our existence. We can still be moral, kind and loving without belief in a creator God. We have survived as a species for at least 150,000 years without any intervention. If we destroy ourselves I have no doubt it will be because opposing sides believe God is talking directly to them. Religion retards us!
Mrmentalmadness123 3 weeks ago
@Mrmentalmadness123 No, we can't. History has proven otherwise. The belief that humanity kills each other more over God than he does without Him is not only faulty, but flies in the face of the reality that Atheistic Regimes have committed. 100 million people murdered in one century, thanks to Atheism. But you never hear that. Nope, it's simply offered as an alternative, but is never examined for the crimes committed in its wake.
MaxxTheMerciless 3 weeks ago
@MaxxTheMerciless oh fuck here we go...so now you're going to tell us Hitler is a socialist and also an atheist? Isn't it going to be awful when you find out he was catholic, the first pact he signed was with the vatican, and that the type of government you want is the closest thing the world has to Nazis? I can tell this one will be fun!
HugeJohn51 3 weeks ago
@HugeJohn51 Since you've repeatedly demonstrated to be a bigot, a liar, a hack and a coward, there's no point in talking to you. Yes, Hitler was an atheist. He hated the Church. He was a Socialist. He even said so - repeatedly. But, whatever myths makes you happy.
MaxxTheMerciless 3 weeks ago
@MaxxTheMerciless It doesn't make me happy to see people like yourself doomed to repeat history because you deny the reality of it. Hitler repeatedly invoked god as did his supporters. His words and actions prove he was Christian, and although noone can know what he really felt, certainly the Catholic Church acted in concert with him. Even after the Nazis were defeated they still helped get Nazis out of Germany and into South America.
And- go fuck yourself.
HugeJohn51 3 weeks ago
@HugeJohn51 Once again, you prove that not only are you not who you say you are, but you've proven to be a bigger idiot than I took you for. I mean, seriously, if you were really a poli-sci grad, you'd understand how people use window dressing to masquerade as something they're not. What's more, your ignorance of what Hitler did, and what the Church did, is also quite visible. But no, you're an idiot.
MaxxTheMerciless 3 weeks ago
@MaxxTheMerciless reply to one of your other comments though, YES RELIGION CAUSES A LOT OF PAIN AND WARS AND THE church has A LOT TO ANSWER FOR!
sonyplaystation321 3 weeks ago
@sonyplaystation321 But, not all religions are the same. Christianity, on the whole, is very much aware of its sins. But there are also a lot of overblown arguments made in this regard to suit an agenda. A lot of myths flying around. For instance, about the Inquisitions. Most of what people know about that stems from Monty Python. But when you look into it, the reality is far different, and pales in comparison to what a pure secular world has done.
MaxxTheMerciless 3 weeks ago
@MaxxTheMerciless Going from experience, i know quite a few christians, and i think(with a few exeptions) they are very uncomfortable people to be around, the sense of judgment you feel around some of them that you just dont feel around secular people, regardless of what they do good or bad, at least most of them take you as you are, and not look down on you as if they are in some way holier than you
sonyplaystation321 3 weeks ago
@sonyplaystation321 That is true. Speaking as a Catholic I know precisely what you mean. I chalk a lot of that up to what I call Bad Sunday School. Yes, we are to be judgmental about bad things, and we're not to tolerate them, but to adopt the holier-than-thou attitude is wrong. For instance, I told a young girl who was dressing very inappropriately to go home and change, pointing out that how you dress can affect how you are respected. And she did, because it was right (and she was cold).
MaxxTheMerciless 3 weeks ago
@sonyplaystation321 Also, by the same token, we tolerate too many evils in society. One evil is too much, but it's gotten out of hand thanks to the culture of relativism that fails to see how some evils affect societies at large. I think a lot of what you may be experiencing from a lot of Christians may be a form of frustration; they see the world going to Hell in a hand-basket, and are concerned they're not doing enough to stop it. And YET, they often don't do something about their own lives
MaxxTheMerciless 3 weeks ago
@MaxxTheMerciless another thing i have noticed about christianity is that there is a lot of fighting within itself, ive observed on the internet christians squabelling with each other about stupid things like doctrine etc..., its like, if your not a christian,your a devil, if you are a christian , your STILL a devil, because you dont go to whatever church they go to. if thats what being a christian is, then who wants to be like them anyway.
sonyplaystation321 3 weeks ago
@sonyplaystation321 That's been going on since the Reformation. Heck, you ought to see what the Colonists thought of one another before the American Revolution. You had Quakers referring to Anglicans in New England as "the flock of Cain." LOL. Prior to the Reformation you didn't see this too much because the Church had a hierarchy, and the Church never had any real squabbles with the Eastern Orthodox Church beyond the Great Schism anyway.
MaxxTheMerciless 3 weeks ago
@sonyplaystation321 And that's one of the reasons why I leave doctrine to Priests. I'm not ordained, though I know a lot of theology. I try not to get into discussions with other Christian denominations about their doctrines, even if I think they're somewhat wrong. Actually, I personally think, with some exceptions, that most of our squabbles are due to misunderstandings. For instance, a lot of Protestants will say that Catholics worship Mary. We don't. We venerate her and the saints..cont
MaxxTheMerciless 3 weeks ago
@sonyplaystation321 cont..we venerate those people because they are examples of how to lead a holy life. We don't accept a sacrifice on behalf of Mary, though we pray for her intercession on our behalf. By the same token, I think a lot of Catholics misunderstand Protestants along the same sorts of lines.
MaxxTheMerciless 3 weeks ago
@MaxxTheMerciless yea, i knew all about that in history, but until recently,i didnt realise it was still that bad,(just not as voilent).
sonyplaystation321 3 weeks ago
@sonyplaystation321 Lot of bad blood, and when you break it down it's mainly about power, not faith. There's a lot of jealousy of the Catholic Church because we're the largest Christian denomination. There's quite a bit of condescension and incredulity leveled at Protestants for what one can see as "Christian-Lite." But, we'd all let bygones be bygones if there weren't a lot of power at play behind the scenes that use doctrine as an excuse for their machinations.
MaxxTheMerciless 3 weeks ago
@MaxxTheMerciless is catholisism still the largest denomination? it thought it was pentecostols now
sonyplaystation321 3 weeks ago
@sonyplaystation321 Depending on who you read, we have anywhere between 500 million and 1 billion worldwide. Now, I don't know how they entirely arrived at those figures, but I'm not necessarily going to deny them either. I'm not sure if they count only the baptised or those who declare themselves as Catholic on the census, or what.
MaxxTheMerciless 3 weeks ago
@MaxxTheMerciless also, as a christian(or catholic or whatever) do you really beleive in all that tongues and holy laughter etc...? i think they look like the biggest clowns on the planet. lol
sonyplaystation321 3 weeks ago
@sonyplaystation321 No. In fact, I didn't believe it even before I became Catholic. The whole bit about speaking in Tongues is from the book of Acts, where, during Pentacost, the Holy Spirit descends on the apostles, and they were able to speak in all kinds of languages. This was so they'd be able to spread the Gospel everywhere. This means that those clowns who are babbling in "tongues" fail to see that the Holy Spirit doesn't fill someone with gibberish.
MaxxTheMerciless 3 weeks ago
@MaxxTheMerciless have you heard of a preacher called benny hinn? isnt he a catholic?(all i know for sure, is that he is probably THE biggest lunatic ive ever seen)
sonyplaystation321 3 weeks ago
@sonyplaystation321 I've heard of him. He's Pentecostal, I believe. Catholics have no Pastors. The difference between a Pastor and a Priest is that a Priest presents a Sacrifice on an Altar. A Pastor doesn't.
There's a bit more reverence for God and the faith in a Catholic Church than what you see the likes of Hinn do, which, if you note, mainly focuses on him and his antics. True, not all Pentecostals, I'm sure, are like that, but that's the kind of thing that drove me to Catholicism.
MaxxTheMerciless 3 weeks ago
@sonyplaystation321 And, I particularly don't like a lot of those odd-denominational (by the way, there are like 40,000 non Catholic denominations out there since the Reformation) churches doing this kind of thing. Similarly, I sometimes think that the Milinarian sects (hope I spelled that right) stress apocalyptic prophecy too much. 7th Day Adventists, in my experience, seem to go a bit overboard in that department.
MaxxTheMerciless 3 weeks ago
@MaxxTheMerciless i have actually been to a few catholic church services when i was younger,but can barely remember what it was like,i have a large philipino step family, that are all catholic, and they draged me along to church sometimes, i dont beleive in their faith, but they are certanly not as judgemental or pushy as some of the fundamental christians i know.
sonyplaystation321 3 weeks ago
@sonyplaystation321 There's a lot of strife within the Catholic Church too. Since Vatican II, I've noticed there's been a great deal of feuding over how we do Mass, changes in doctrine (such as the idea of women priests), and notably the Church Sexual Abuse Scandals. I'm a Catechuman, a recent convert to the Church, and I never realized how much strife there was until I was explained what was going on first-hand by a good priest who helped me along the way.
MaxxTheMerciless 3 weeks ago
@MaxxTheMerciless this will have to be my last comment because of other things i need to do, i guess at the end of the day we will all find out whos right and whos wrong in the end, but if christians want to convert me, they will have to do a better job than what they are doing now, because i know so many, im quite used to people trying to force it down my throat and failing misserably. you seem ok though, ill let you go now, it was good talking to you.
sonyplaystation321 3 weeks ago
@sonyplaystation321 Good talking to you, too. What I tend to tell my fellow Christians on how to convert someone is very simple; just be yourselves, don't be afraid to speak out on things, promote excellence and decency in society when you can. But, what converted me was my own research, plus what I felt was a populist movement within some of the other denominations I had been to. In other words - Do Good things, speak the Truth, and let people make up their own minds.
MaxxTheMerciless 3 weeks ago
@sonyplaystation321 I'll be you didn't know that in over 80% of cases involving an Inquisition (which is a court of inquiry, hence the name), the accused was set free? That, if you were ever accused of heresy (of which, 99% of the time was done by some layperson who just didn't like you), you prayed for an Inquisitor to come and hear your case before the local mob and nobility murdered you.
MaxxTheMerciless 3 weeks ago
@sonyplaystation321 You have to put things, also, into context and some perspective. Did the Church do some bad things? Of course, and I'm not defending that. On the other hand, the Church may have been established by Jesus Christ, it is made up of human beings who make mistakes, just like any other human institution. The Church also did some magnificent things that our modern world takes so much for granted; but you'll never hear someone like HugeJohn51 point that out.
MaxxTheMerciless 3 weeks ago
I see God (and I feel Him). For me, He's a beautiful mosaic of bright and glistening gems. The gems are everything precious to humanity, without which we cannot survive. They are Love, mercy, kindness, compassion, forgiveness, comfort, hope, wisdom, peace... and all that is beautiful which our hearts treasure. May the bounty of His great Love, our Lord Jesus Christ, soften our hardened hearts with His graces, so that we remain close with our Father, in, through and with Him. Amen
BritishSnail 1 month ago
@BritishSnail I would like to meet this guy. He sounds great. Maybe too good to be true? Good grief you have this indoctrination stuff really bad! Have you read the Old Testament - the God in that is far from the chap you describe?
Mrmentalmadness123 3 weeks ago
@Mrmentalmadness123 And then there was Jesus - 'the Love' of God. Amen
BritishSnail 3 weeks ago
@BritishSnail Good grief again!
Mrmentalmadness123 3 weeks ago
@Mrmentalmadness123 It's lovely of you to take such an interest in God. That must be a huge calling you have, to be so preoccupied with Him.
BritishSnail 3 weeks ago
"God is not a true thing in the world" Agreed.
csosa1978 1 month ago
@csosa1978 Good. Now you're ready to engage what serious religious people mean by "God." As long as you imagine God to be some supreme reality within the world, you will end up in an atheist position, for there is indeed no evidence for such a being. But the one thing the creator of the universe cannot be is an item within the universe. Once you grasp that, you're ready for some real theologizing.
wordonfirevideo 1 month ago
@wordonfirevideo True. I can edit any sentence from the video, too and completely remove it from context. Nobody can argue on such grounds.
Cristinact 1 month ago
@Cristinact I wasn't arguing I just commented that I agreed that far and pretty much that far.
csosa1978 1 month ago
@csosa1978 Sorry for my misunderstanding ;)
Cristinact 1 month ago
@wordonfirevideo If that is what you mean by god the we are done because it's indistinguishable from imaginary, and theologizing (if that's even a word) sounds a lot like imagining shit up which I find very little use for.
csosa1978 1 month ago
@csosa1978 Actually, the unconditioned act of being itself is the conclusion of a rational demonstration, the argument from contingency. In brief, contingent or dependent reality must rely, ultimately, on some being which is not dependent, which is its own reason for existing. This ultimate reality is what Catholic philosophy means by God.
wordonfirevideo 1 month ago
@wordonfirevideo I just honestly do not at all understand that first sentence. The rest of it sounds a bit like the "uncaused cause" but why must it rely on a being? who decided this and why does this even make sense to you? How does positing this work to prove the existence and what is god's role in this "catholic philosophy" of god?
csosa1978 1 month ago
@wordonfirevideo Also you mention catholic, which I was for over 25 years and never heard god described this way. I want to know how you get from contingent being to the god of the bible if indeed you make this leap.. Looking at what you wrote so far and even if I accepted all of it at best I would come out the other end a Deist.
csosa1978 1 month ago
@csosa1978 Not so! The God of the Bible is described consistently as the creator of the entire universe. And this is precisely what the unconditioned act of being itself is: the ground of finite existence, the reason why there is something rather than nothing.
wordonfirevideo 1 month ago
@wordonfirevideo Is the bible unique in describing a creator of the universe? Others have holy books with them also and you don't subscribe to any of them. I am questioning how do you make this connection to your god? I would imagine any made up god throughout time that was written to have created the universe could lay claim to your argument. The bible also describes a god that loves and is jealous concerned with worship and foreskins... How is this consistent with a non-contingent "being"?
csosa1978 1 month ago
@csosa1978 Well, I'm taking things one step at a time. Of course many other religious and philosophical traditions have spoken of a Creator God, and to that extent they're right. The Bible--Old Testament and New--adds an infinite amount of refinement to this basic picture.
wordonfirevideo 1 month ago
@wordonfirevideo right, so cause for the universe you call it god I call it (not yet known). I am still stuck as to how then you get form there to your holy book and god? Refinement? The god described in the Bible is a monster that ordered mass murder and approved of rape and slavery. In the remote possibility that a god actually existed, the claim that the Bible describes this god is extraordinarily blasphemous. My problems only start here if we ever get into the doctrine...but one step at..
csosa1978 1 month ago
@csosa1978 Well call it what you want, as long as you acknowledge that it is the non-contingent source of contingent existence, for in saying that, you are admitting that it is properly unconditioned and hence limitless in its ontological perfection. And friend, could I ask you to bracket those problematic passages in the Bible for a time? I don't want you to fall into the trap of thinking that they tell the whole story in regard to God.
wordonfirevideo 1 month ago
@wordonfirevideo I don't know about all that as I said it is unknown. It may have any number of properties or not. I will not mention the bible, but we are still at the place where I don't know how you (by you I mean believers) get from "a cause for the universe..." to your specific holy book and god. I am not trolling or trying to argue or upset, I really want to know what good reason is there for that leap. I just haven't been told or explained this part of it. Thank you for taking the time.
csosa1978 1 month ago
@csosa1978 The God of the Bible is perfect, intelligent, loving, provident, and creative, and gives his name as "I am who I am," all of which is utterly congruent with what we know through the argument from contingency. Reason, in other words, predisposes us to accept the revelation given in the Bible.
wordonfirevideo 1 month ago
@wordonfirevideo The god of the bible makes mistakes, feels regret is jealous, spiteful and can't come up with a better way to fix his mistakes than by exterminating the human race (creative? really?) It would seem to me reason would compel us to reject these revelations of a very man made god.
csosa1978 1 month ago
@csosa1978 Sounds like me on a bad day. I am certainly not a God.
Mrmentalmadness123 3 weeks ago
Sounds a lot like pantheism to me.
All things are created by god, and their original purpose is good; that is not to say that god is in all things but that all things are of god.
Free will is what creates evil but lo and behold its purpose is also good!
The holy spirit speaks to our conscience and tells us when our free will is straying from Gods intent and when we are about to sin.
God is felt in your heart, heard in your mind, and seen in your life when you listen, repent, and love Jesus.
SemperFi03159 1 month ago
I wish ministers were more like this. This is how people learn. Asking and answering questions.
MrSurfingdreamer 1 month ago
what are the differedences between catholicism and orthodoxy?
alemwoldeyes 2 months ago
God bless you, Father Barron! I absolutely love your videos on YouTube!
yvettepalladino 2 months ago
I find Fr Barron, charming, charismatic, poetic and intelligent yet unconvincing. I would have liked him to give a specific example of seeing 'God out of the corner of his eye' or indirectly so to speak. In this video he was addressing the poetic mind and not the intellect - a bit like whispering sweet nothings in a woman's ear. She adores it but really much of what is said is insubstantial and she should be wary of taking it too seriously.
zearro53 3 months ago 2
@zearro53 Take a look at my videos on God's existence, specifically on the argument from contingency.
wordonfirevideo 3 months ago
@wordonfirevideo My request was that you give a specific example of seeing God out of the corner of your eye as it were. I was not asking you to prove the existence of God. If someone told you that God had spoken to them and you questioned whether they really had heard God, would you be satisfied if they told you to look up the argument from contingency. What you are being asked to do is support your claim that you can perceive God albeit indirectly. You are making a personal claim.
zearro53 3 months ago
@wordonfirevideo I just purchased the Catholicism project! It's awesome and very well done. Great video. I've been studying Catholic theology and philosophy on my own and I have enjoyed your video clips. I like the arguement from contigency especially in reference to God's unique name YHWH. Great source of contemplation. God bless!
celtussanctus 3 months ago
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@wordonfirevideo I just purchased the Catholicism project! It's awesome and very well done. Great video. I've been studying Catholic theology and philosophy on my own and I have enjoyed your video clips. I like the arguement from contigency especially in reference to God's unique name YHWH. Great source of contemplation. God bless!
celtussanctus 3 months ago
@zearro53 And the poetic mind does not spring from the intellect? The lover is touched by insubstantial sweet-nothings because they point to a truth beyond words. There is something very deep in the human spirit that seeks to know of truth beyond what can be grasped by the senses. Thus the perennial questions; - Why am i here? How did this all happen? - Is there really something "out there" or do humans conjure up images of god(s) to satisfy social and psychological needs? see next...
oldschoolsaint 3 months ago
@oldschoolsaint continuation, see previous. .. These are questions I've grappled with my whole life. I have been drawn back to Christianity (Catholicism) because I find a CONCRETE answer to these questions in the person of Jesus. He is where intuition and faith meet with our common sense of reality; with the flesh and blood of history. I think this is what Father Barron is driving at.
oldschoolsaint 3 months ago
@oldschoolsaint I appreciate you believe you have found a concrete answer. Basically the good Father states that we know we are encountering God when we encounter him indirectly through virtues i.e beauty and justice. This says nothing at all. One may as well say, we know we are encountering virtues when we encounter virtues. One cannot conclude from that there is an omnipotent, omniscient divine being there. He may as well be encountered when we encounter evil Isaiah 45:7.
zearro53 3 months ago
@zearro53 Z - We do not say that God, beauty and love are one in the same. We say that God is the source of beauty and love. Beauty and love are manifestations of God but not God Himself. I know of no one who claims that there is a knock down argument for the divine being you reference. The argument for God, the Christian God, is a cumulative one built on theology, cosmology, science, and, most importantly, history. That is why we say our faith is not blind but rather informed.
oldschoolsaint 3 months ago
@oldschoolsaint I am fully aware of the Catholic position. I am an ex- junior seminarian.
zearro53 3 months ago
@oldschoolsaint . I have no idea where the poetic mind springs from. Insubstantial means without substance which is hardly how truth can be described. I admit to the possibility that there may be truths that cannot be grasped by the senses. However, that raises the question how are these truths received and how are they communicated if not through the senses?
zearro53 3 months ago
Mathematics is completely abstract yet it reveals deep truths. By what sense do we grasp it? All of the arguments about God's existence lead to the same question;how is it that man can come to know truth? What counts as evidence? The answer to this is always a faith claim. For how does one prove, for example, that truth can only be known through a physical examination of the natural world? This is why most of these arguments go absolutely nowhere. We are not even speaking the same language.
oldschoolsaint 3 months ago
@oldschoolsaint Your reply is an argument that there are truths beyond our senses. As I have already allowed for that possibility, I do not see the point of your argument and the example of mathematics or this talk about examining the physical world as the solel source of truth. If there are truths beyond our senses, how would we know about them? We can grasp the possibility of such truths but with what do we perceive them? If you don't know the answer to the question, just say so.
zearro53 3 months ago
@oldschoolsaint Re-mathematics. It is a law that can be demonstrated and requires no faith. Whenever you count one orange and one orange you will always see the same number of oranges in total. It can be demonstrated repeatedly. And this repetition leads to certainty. This repetition is not seen with regard to God encounters. Prayers are not always answered if ever.
zearro53 3 months ago
@zearro53 ...Barron didn't convince you because he does not know God himself. His love is the catholic church..totally not the same thing as knowing and loving God. Don't be moved by his flowery speech.. The bible calls this type of speaking sounding brass and tinkling cymbals.
bella50008 2 months ago
@bella50008 So which is God's true church, Bella?
zearro53 2 months ago
@zearro53 ...The Body of Christ. Those who accept Jesus as Saviour - not mary, not the pope, not any dead saint or idol, but Jesus alone. Those who follow the teachings of the Bible.
bella50008 1 month ago
@bella50008 So when did God tell you this?or if he did not tell you who did he tell and why do you believe them? By the way, most Catholics would fulfill the above criteria outlined by you.. I have yet to meet one that claims the pope, Mary, dead saints or idols are their saviour. Finally which Bible are you talking about - orthodox, catholic, protestant, Mormon etc and name one person who has followed all its teachings?
zearro53 1 month ago
@zearro53 ..1) About an hour ago. No actually, I have known for years since I read the scriptures and use the brain God gave me, guided by the intelligence of the Holy Spirit.You may want to try this yourself.
2) Most catholics live in direct defiance of the criteria I outlined.
3) I have encountered countless catholics who refer to "mary" as saviour, as have you- stop lying and look in the mirror.
4)The Christian Bible - King James Version to be exact. All others you mentioned are heretical.
bella50008 1 month ago
@bella50008 How do you know when scriptures come from God and when they do not? On what basis do you dismiss other scriptures as false and on what basis do you assert that yours are true? Who decides what goes into the scriptures and how do you know they have the authority to make such a decision? Finally is it possible that your God given brain may be mistaken or is it infallible?. Also, I would ask that you stick to reason and not start making accusations - such as "liar". A non-Catholic
zearro53 1 month ago
@zearro53...1)"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.." 2 Tim 3:16.
2) Any book, doctrine, catechism, prayer, practice, tradition that contradicts the word of God is false.
3)See #1
4)It is not only possible but 100% true that my brain is fallible, that is why I submit to the intelligence and guidance of the Holy Spirit - He is never wrong.
5)Don't like the answer... don't ask the question.
bella50008 1 month ago
@bella50008 Obviously if there is a God and he says something then he has said it. Your quote from Timothy says no more than that. What I am asking you is how you know God has said it. For example Mohammed may have the word of God and Timothy not. Further how do you know you are being guided by the Holy Spirit but instead by a demon turning you away from the truth of say Islam? First you have to establish what is God's word before you can say what contradicts it. Again how do you know?
zearro53 1 month ago
@zearro53 .."First you have to establish what is God's word before you can say what contradicts it."
No I don't. I've no obigation to follow your mandates. I have given you scripture..in which I believe. You are free to believe that said scripture regarding the God of the Bible, or believe the Quran, or nothing at all..totally up to you. But unless you subscribe to the theory that the delicate intricacies of life and space are due to a big bang then you too have faith in a god. Just choose.
bella50008 1 month ago
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@bella50008 Well, you claim to have given me scripture and the Muslims claim to have given me scripture. I am simply asking you to demonstrate that you have the real scriptures and not the Muslims. If you don't know the answer just say so. Now remember you said that a person who does not know God cannot convince another . "Fr Barron didn't convince you because he does not know God himself" You have not convinced me.
zearro53 1 month ago
@bella50008 ."First you have to establish what is God's word before you can say what contradicts it."Me.
"No I don't. I've no obigation to follow your mandates". Bella
It is not a mandate but an appeal to the laws of logic. It is also an appeal to the teachings that you say that only true Christians follow. "...and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear." 1 Peter 3:15. How does one know the Bible comes from God
zearro53 1 month ago
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MrSurfingdreamer 1 month ago
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@bella50008 Mother Mary, the Pope, and Saints are appreciated, respected, and honored as they should be. Catholics do not pray to Mary or the Saints for salvation. They only ask them to pray with or for them to Jesus. So that through their divine relationship they may also ask for whatever we need from God. This is similar to when you ask your friends, family, church...to pray for/with you. Ultimately, you are humbling yourself before God even more by doing this to pray to Jesus Christ.
MrSurfingdreamer 1 month ago
@bella50008 "And I say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church." Which Church do you think Jesus was talking about? The Anglican Church? Or maybe the Methodist Church? Perhaps it was the United Reformed Church...
gwalj 1 month ago
@gwalj ...you need to study the word of God for yourself instead of being led with a hook in your nose by evil men who preach false doctrines. Jesus was not saying the "catholic church" or Peter was the foundation...Jesus is foundation of the true church - the body of believers who follow the teachings of Christ. God gave Peter this revelation of who Jesus is ...not who Peter is. Don't be a heretic all your life.
bella50008 1 month ago
I am not religious, as FAITH is not a religion, totally different things. I was being asked many times - was I religious? Of course not, I am a believer.
And to me(no disrespect as You may be totally different) Catholicism always seemed as a religion, cold candle lights, empty prayers learned by hard, no flight and sometimes - no God..
AProducerA 3 months ago
Fr. Barron, please, tell me why it is so important name yourself as a Catholic, Christian, Baptist(....)etc?It clearly does not indicate that Catholics have a different God from Christians.Personally to me it seems more like a label, plus it provokes believers getting into a certain fight, irrelevant debates. I've been labeled as a Christian since I was 16, so now its 7 years,but it doesn't make sense. I am looking for a God, not a copied God,created by human,their own opinions and their systems
AProducerA 3 months ago
Man I just LOVE Theology!!
Too bad I never got to study that.
Please tell me you sir that talk in this video are Catholic because I really like the way you express your ideas.
Very insightful! :D
Luishazong 3 months ago
@Luishazong Yep, I'm Catholic!
wordonfirevideo 3 months ago
I have the same bible as Fr. Barron!
jedjethro 4 months ago
@jedjethro Me too!
LVCIVSTVLLIVSATELLVS 3 months ago
Fr. Barron, you say that we seek justice, but aren't satisfied because we really desire the transcendent justice. I eat, but I'm hungry a while later. So I eat, and later I'm hungry again. It seems I just can't be satisfied by the food of this world. Does this mean that there is some transcendent "food itself" that corresponds to my desire for physical nourishment, just as you believe there is a transcendent justice that corresponds to our desires?
Mystagogia87 4 months ago
I LOOOOVEEEE GOD!!
MatyldaJola 4 months ago
Even better:
A: I am not looking for a cheap fight. I just want a compelling argument for Christianity.
B: Then start reading great apologetic pieces we continue to recommend to get you started on your way.
A: But I don't have the time to read every religion.
B: But I thought you wanted an argument for Christianity?
A: But I have to read arguments for other religions before I decide.
B: Ok, then read the apologetics of those other religions.
A: But I don't have the time.
grunderlyme 6 months ago
@grunderlyme You're missing my point here. I'm not talking about myself. I'm talking about the number of people who (1) have never heard of Jesus and never will (2) have heard of Jesus and Krishna and Allah but don't have the time (3) have heard of them but don't understand the intellectual debate. The more complex the arguments get the more people is left behind because they are not clever enough.
DrHowbeit 6 months ago
@DrHowbeit What "point"? So what if someone has never "heard" of Christ before? Just because a person errs because he didn't know any better, or made an otherwise sound judgment given his psychological condition or culture, doesn't condemn him to hell or something. I worry about those who HAVE heard, been given multiple chances, but too stubborn or lazy to use the gifts God gave them, or just choose to ignore His call. God doesn't judge us for non-culpable ignorance. He knows our hearts.
grunderlyme 6 months ago
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grunderlyme 6 months ago
@DrHowbeit You have no "point" to argue here. The crazy Westboro Baptist Church believes they are the only ones going to heaven. Does citing such a fact about what they believe solve anything?--No.
You would rather whine about such a moot topic without getting off your ass and doing anything about it. Start your own journey now, and stop wasting everyone's time.
grunderlyme 6 months ago
@DrHowbeit But this is just false. A person is not "left behind" because he's not some great philosopher or scholar. Christ's love is open to everyone, irrespective of their intellectual prowess. God expects everyone to use the gifts and talents he gave them, wisely, in proportion to their capacity to use them consistent with their "calling" in life--But woe to those who squander their gifts, because "even what he has will be taken away."--Matt 13:12.
grunderlyme 6 months ago
I am inside a never-ending satirical comedy:
A: "I am not looking for a cheap fight. I just want a compelling argument for Christianity."
B: "Then start reading great apologetic pieces like Kreeft's "Fundamental of the Fath," Lewis' "Mere Christianity," & Chesterton's "Orthodoxy"
A: But I don't have the time.
B: What do you want me to do?
A: Give me a compelling argument for Christianity.
B: Start reading those works I suggested.
A: But I don't have the time.
grunderlyme 6 months ago
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grunderlyme 6 months ago
@3rosesred Ignore DrHowbeit. His pretended allegiance to finding the truth is betrayed by his choice to stay here and pick on you rather than read all those philosophers he himself mentioned yesterday but won't get off his ass to read. As a graduate in philosophy, I've read all those authors--but like many, he refuses to get his hands dirty expecting a magic trick instead--He's not after understanding, but a cheap fight, one whose level of intellectual rigor he knows won't exceed 500 words
grunderlyme 6 months ago
@grunderlyme I'm not looking for a fight. I'm looking for a compelling argument for Christianity. Far from everyone have the intellectual capability to understand the theological arguments going back and forth. Most people aren't that educated. Most people are busy making ends meet. Most people haven't even heard about these arguments. Many haven't heard about Jesus. What about them?
DrHowbeit 6 months ago
@DrHowbeit You're not going to get a "compelling argument" for Christianity in 500 words. There's no easy shortcut. You have to dive into the literature already mentioned here. You know as well as I do that no single argument will demonstrate the truth of one religion over the myriad of others. Conversion is a life-long journey--one simultaneously requiring a critical mind and a strong desire to find the truth. If you don't think the Truth is at least possible, you will find nothing.
grunderlyme 6 months ago
@DrHowbeit I recommend you get started reading all those works you mentioned right away, including those Hindu authors. Comparative religious studies is a great place to start, but don't forget employing criticial reason in your investigations. That's exactly how I did it--but it takes time. And NOW is the time. God will never find you culpable so long as you keep searching. You baptise yourself by your own desire (official Church teaching). Good luck.
grunderlyme 6 months ago
@grunderlyme At least it's nice to get a reply without an insult for a change. However, I still have to argue that a lot of people aren't capable of making sense of the philosophical arguments. Nor do they have the time. Most of us are working, raising families and trying to keep this planet in spin. It's practically impossible to have a world where everyone is reading books fulltime.
DrHowbeit 6 months ago
@DrHowbeit I know plenty of individuals not in the academy--full-time parents, construction workers, etc-- who find the time to read. You can find basic apologetics of any religion and start there (Peter Kreeft, e.g.). Having a PhD is not necessary to find God. Again, if God is the God of love, then the desire for God is what matters because you won't find what you're not looking for if you're not looking for it. God does not reveal himself to those who don't care or don't want to know.
grunderlyme 6 months ago
@DrHowbeit I don't believe anyone has "zero" time for God. People don't need more time, but to re-evaluate their priorities. You make the time. Instead of watching Reality TV for 30 minutes, you could make the effort to read a short passage from the "The Imitation of Christ." Or start talking to God in prayer, warts and all--no matter how silly you think it is--since prayer is God's Language.
grunderlyme 6 months ago
@grunderlyme "Having a PhD" or at least a suitable education is well found if you are going to analyze for instance Kant's refutation of the ontological argument. You also have to analyze the refutations of the refutation as well as the the refutations of the refutations of the refutation. The philosophers will reject attempts to understand these complex issues if the investigator lacks proper education. Doesn't sit well if God is supposed to be for everyman.
DrHowbeit 6 months ago
@DrHowbeit God IS for every man. What's the problem?
Kant didn't "refute" the ontological argument. "Refutation" is technical term in logic meaning a "proof by contradiction." Kant just rejected the notion that "existence" functioned as a predicate that can be affirmed or denied of a subject of a sentence. Logic 200 yrs later agrees. "There exists an X such that..." is now a quantifier--not a predicate.
Aquinas 700 yrs ago also rejected the ontological argument for similar reasons.
grunderlyme 6 months ago
@grunderlyme There you go. See how easy it is to misinterpret things? You really expect people without college education to make sense of Kant?
DrHowbeit 6 months ago
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@DrHowbeit "There you go. See how easy it is to misinterpret things? You really expect people without college education to make sense of Kant?"
--Well, if you truly do have a deep desire to understand what's out there, then I guess you better get started. It does you no good wasting your time whining about it.
It's obvious to me that you are the type of person who wants to be spoonfed without doing any actual work. Sorry, punchy, it ain't gonna happen.
grunderlyme 6 months ago
@grunderlyme "zero time for God"
I suppose most people can make room for a bit of Bible studies a couple of times a week. That's about it. Keep in mind that Christ is one of many gods. What I'm talking about is the monumental task of studying all religions in one lifetime. Try debating a muslim. My guess is he's going to bash your understanding of the Quran.
DrHowbeit 6 months ago
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@DrHowbeit "can make room for a bit of Bible studies a couple of times a week. That's about it."
--I doubt it. You just have to priortize. If you work too hard because you like to take a lot of vacations, buy fancy cars, and eat out all the time--then you clearly care more about living large than living for God.
"monumental task of studying all religions in one lifetime"
--I wouldn't call it "monumental." But it does require time. Looks like you better get started.
grunderlyme 6 months ago
@DrHowbeit "Try debating a muslim. My guess is he's going to bash your understanding of the Quran"
--I have at least 2 devout muslim friends, both of whom I've known for over 6-8 years. We talk this stuff all time. I just don't find their evidence convincing. I am not closed to dialogue.
Please don't drop empty retorts about the Quran if you yourself are not willing to back them up. This is a total waste of everyone's time without an actual case. You better get to work.
grunderlyme 6 months ago
@grunderlyme When was I "picking on him"???
DrHowbeit 6 months ago
@3rosesred Hi, how are you? I'm not gonna dispute this too strongly, because I kinda said I wouldn't, but if I was religious I would find your answer disturbing. If I trust the Church that means I trust authorities on earth not God himself. God is supposed to be a personal God.
Secondly, 2K is not that much of an argument. There are religions older than that for which people have suffered.
Thirdly, why do you call him "Father"? See Matthew 23:1-9.
DrHowbeit 6 months ago
Ok, Barron, but how do you know which God?
DrHowbeit 6 months ago
@DrHowbeit The God who is the creative ground of existence, the reason why there is something rather than nothing.
wordonfirevideo 6 months ago
@wordonfirevideo The description is a bit vague, don't you think? There are many Gods to choose from and call "the creative ground of existence". Perhaps it's a God we don't know yet.
DrHowbeit 6 months ago
@DrHowbeit Is Faith that we 'choose a God' to believe in, or can it rather follow a process of finding the reasonable grounds for Faith via intellectual discovery?
JamesSmith86 6 months ago
@JamesSmith86 I don't know, but it's a fairly good question. Some believers claim you have to get struck by faith, it's a revelation. Barron says in a different video that faith chooses you.
DrHowbeit 6 months ago
@JamesSmith86 Making an intellectual discovery seems difficult. There are 21 major religions. Thousands of christian denominations. You have to catch up on 2000 years of Bible studies (for christianity alone). That's a life's work in itself. You have to read all the other scriptures and their interpretations. Do research on history, archeology, philosophy, apologetics, science, epistemology, psychology, cultural impact and so forth. There's not enough lifetime.
DrHowbeit 6 months ago
@DrHowbeit Faith itself is a supernatural act requiring preemptive grace, but the intellectual framework which grace builds on is not so difficult to find as it would seem. A complete reading and analysis of all the things you mentioned is not necessary, but rather consideration of the fundamental questions: What is necessary for the existence of contingent being (i.e. the Universe), etc. Study Blessed John Newmann and pray to the True God to reveal Himself and His Will in your life
JamesSmith86 6 months ago
@JamesSmith86 "Faith itself is a supernatural act" What's your source?
"pray to the True God to reveal Himself" Suppose I have a religious experience, how do I know which God it is?
"Study Blessed John Newmann". There you go. I've been told to study formal logic, modal logic, Swineburne, Plantinga, C.S. Lewis, Thomas Aquinas, Leibniz, Descartes, Hume, Anselm, King James Bible etc. That's for christianity alone. I must also take into account the debunkers and those debunking the debunkers.
DrHowbeit 6 months ago
@DrHowbeit Re: "Faith", that is the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. Search "Catholic Encyclopedia Faith" and you'll find an excellent article on it written in the early 20th century.
God can lead you to Himself and to the worship proper to Him, if you ask Him to. He will reveal the True Religion to you if you seek Him with all your heart.
JamesSmith86 6 months ago
@JamesSmith86 "if you ask Him to"
I don't know which one to ask. Shall I simply call him God? Will he present himself by name?
DrHowbeit 6 months ago
@DrHowbeit That God is One, and that there cannot be many First Principles is understood by reason. PRAYER is key here--if you don't begin this dialogue, even if you know only that you're intending to communicate with the greatest possible Being than you will never know Him. Pray to God to reveal Himself to you. He doesn't need any help, but He will wait for you to ask...
JamesSmith86 6 months ago
@JamesSmith86 What if I have prayed without result?
DrHowbeit 6 months ago
@DrHowbeit Deut 6:5 says "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole strength." Seeking God is a process that involves your whole life. Keep praying--ask Him for the grace to know Him and know yourself. Be like the poor widow and the unjust judge (Luke 18:8).
JamesSmith86 6 months ago
@DrHowbeit Also read. The great works of authors such as St. Augustine aren't just monumental classics of spirituality--REGARDLESS of your faith tradition--but also fundamental documents of Western civilization. You will benefit from picking up and reading some of his "Confessions", or perhaps even Dante Alighieri's "Divine Comedy."
JamesSmith86 6 months ago
@JamesSmith86 Have you read Ibn Sina, al-Farabi, Ibn Rushd, Swami Abhedananda, Swami Dayananda Saraswati, Kumārila Bhaṭṭa, Dharmakirti, Vasubandhu or Dōgen Zenji?
DrHowbeit 6 months ago
@DrHowbeit By referencing these, I presume you mean that they offer potential counter-messages to the teaching of the Catholic Church. They seem to mainly be Eastern mystics, though, and as such their angle is different from the Church's. We believe that knowledge of Christ and His teachings is obtained through the teaching, governing and sanctifying Body He founded, rather than through private, cultural or otherwise localized spiritualities.
JamesSmith86 6 months ago
@JamesSmith86 I don't know about counter-messages. I just named a tiny fraction of philosophers in other religions. There are libraries of information to plow through. That's my point. If you start reading you better read the "right" religion from the start since there aren't enough time to study all.
DrHowbeit 6 months ago
@DrHowbeit You gave up before you even began, so what's the point here? You already made up your mind the truth is impossible, in spite of our efforts to point you in the right direction. This defeatist attitude makes me think of what Einstein said, "If you think you can, you can. And if you think you can’t, you’re right." Don't you have better things to do than waste your time with religion? You won. So move along.
grunderlyme 6 months ago
@DrHowbeit Many esteemed thinkers and men have ultimately arrived at the Catholic Church from diverse religious backgrounds. These include John Henry Newman, G.K. Chesterton, and others. I think you would really enjoy reading the latter's "Orthodoxy" -- it's tremendously well written and engaging, plus humorous and personal. So my point is that an authentic search for God ultimately seeks Him in His Church, but sometimes circumstances (society, culture, etc.) do not permit a visible conversion..
JamesSmith86 6 months ago
@JamesSmith86 Thanks for the tips. Those two seem fairly credible. At the same time it's easy to return the favor and dish out thinkers that have left the catholic church, Auguste Comte and Michel Foucault for instance.
DrHowbeit 6 months ago
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grunderlyme 6 months ago
@DrHowbeit "At the same time thinkers have left the catholic church, Auguste Comte and Michel Foucault"
--So? Many thinkers like Augustine and Newman have joined the Catholic Church. If you sincerely believe finding God is impossible, then you're right. Your own life thus becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy because you never got started. As a living testimony to the trivial truth that those who never seek never find, you quite efficiently demonstrated your point. You won. So move along
grunderlyme 6 months ago
@grunderlyme It's not about winning. It's about what is true and what is not. I agree that those who never seek shall never find. I also believe that those who decide beforehand what to find will find just that. Especially if it's unintelligible. Did it ever occur to you that you're missing out on the real quest? Whatever, I'm moving along then.
DrHowbeit 6 months ago
@DrHowbeit "I also believe that those who decide beforehand what to find will find just that."
--So you cannot have a tentative hypothesis while you go about collecting the data? What's wrong with that?
If the search for God is such a doomed enterprise, then so is science. Theory always guides what you decide to look for, and where. No scientist would know what to look for, or which data set was relevant to his hypothesis, if his hypothesis wasn't guiding his research. duh!
grunderlyme 6 months ago
@DrHowbeit " if it's unintelligible"
--But gravity is also "unintelligible." And no one can picture 11 dimensions. But that doesn't stop scientists from proposing mathematical Laws describing the behavior of bodies in orbit, or mathematical descriptions of multiple dimensions--just as philosophers have been giving logical arguments about God's Nature for thousands of yrs. We are not totally in the dark. Give me a break.
You just like make excuses for not doing any real intellectual work
grunderlyme 6 months ago