Is Jesus God or a god? Stafford's Rebuttal 2

[afterray]

the KING of the JEWS was for sure an important man ( the same can be said about buddha / mohammad / akhenatten etc.)...

the christ was not god. he was a prophet ( be definition)...it's vital to put to the side (rom.10:10) and use common sense when deciphering the characteristics of the KING of the jews...jws have an interesting argument about the godhead...the jws also have an interesting, BENT calculations with the years of 1914 / 1975.

[morelovin4korn]

@afterray 1914 is accurate, 1975... That's not worth mentioning, that was just someone going, 'Oh hey look!' It wasnt down in, 'It's going to happen.' Because no man knows the day.

[afterray]

@morelovin4korn yes. the year ( numbers) of 1914 is accurate...their ( jehovah's witnesses) interpretations of that year is BENT...

"That's not worth mentioning" ?

ok

[morelovin4korn]

@afterray I ment 1975 is not worth mentioning, that's all.

[steveparadise1]

Very sound biblical reasoning. Liked it

[raqyrose]

True Christian must follow Jesus Christ footsteps. He has a God and that is his father Jehovah(YHWH) so in order to to be his follower, we must worship his God, his father (Jehovah) also. Jesus never claimed in the bible that he was the true GOD. He claimed many times in the bible that his father (Jehovah) is. Why is it so hard to most people understand that? Jesus and his father can't be one, that is nonsense. Jesus Christ did not come to earth to confuse people.

[raqyrose]

True Christian must follow Jesus Christ footsteps. He has a God and that is his father Jehovah(YHWH) so in order to to be his follower, we must worship his God, his father (Jehovah) also. Jesus never claimed in the bible that he was only true GOD. He claimed many times in the bible that his father (Jehovah) is. Why is it so hard to most people understand that? Jesus and his father can't be one, that is nonsense. Jesus Christ did not come to earth to confuse people.

[shihtzufizzers]

@djbehemoth Keep up the good work.

[shihtzufizzers]

@djbehemoth that is what the bible says too. that christ is the head of the congregation and God is the head of the christ. Good job. also this does show they are not equal if one is head over the other. yea for you!

[robotwookie]

Do you have a PM so we can discuss this at length? I will say I am not a strict Trinitarianist. I believe the ground work is there but no where in The Bible does it say you must live or die by it. I certainly believe Christ is Deity now even with the typically quoted Arianist arguments and The Spirit isn't an 'active force'. One thing I am certain of is that TWBATS's teachings regarding this issue are nonsense. Especially that Christ is an angel of any kind.

[robotwookie]

p2) And you really should do your homework on Arianism and the like. Most original Christians were trying to understand how three could be called God but there only be one God. Trinitarianism was a word they later used to apply to the issue. Remember, they were masters of these languages and all they did twenty-four hours a day was study scripture. I am a former JW so I know you guys inside and out. But I can tell you as a former hater of the big T, there is a solid basis for it.

[robotwookie]

DJ, You actually made basic errors in your statements. 1)If the Trinitarian God exists, it is NOT a Zeus Apollo scenario. Get that? Only a major God and a smaller 'god' would be get that label like JW's teach. Also, Stafford is not a Greek scholar or a theologian. I thought you might have noticed it when he claimed not to be during this debate. White however is. I came into this with an open mind.I think JW's have a few beliefs that are solid. You came in rooting for your home team in Stafford.

[IvanDefendingTruth]

Jehovah's Witnesses teach a "Major God" and a smaller 'god'" ? That's a horrid misrepresentation and sounds much like second hand information someone passed you along.

White minored (not majored) in Greek, I don't know if that can truly be called a "scholar" is the truest sense of the word. However, credentials don't really prove much in my opinion.

[robotwookie]

Of course not Ivan, that's why you don't mind taking the word of your leaders when they created a Bible even though none of them even understood the languages. They took a 'best of' from skeptics and Christian critics and made what they wanted for scripture...Funny how that doesn't bother Witnesses. "We have the true Bible but the guys who made it speak English and Spanish. What's the difference?" P.S. you really need to rethink 'credentials don't prove much' next time you do to the doctor.

[IvanDefendingTruth]

Credentials don't matter. The body of work is what matters.

[robotwookie]

Education and experience with that knowledge is what gives someone a credible body of work Ivan. This applies to virtually everything on Earth requiring intelligence....

[IvanDefendingTruth]

Exactly, and you don't need "credentials" in order to have an "education" or have "experience" with "knowledge."

What you are suggesting, in essence, is that one would have to be a chef in order to cook or even know how to cook.

[robotwookie]

@IvanDefendingTruth Ivan, you're being obtuse my friend. If you need surgery, who do you go to? If you need a building designed, who do you go to? If you need the worlds most difficult mathematical axiom created, who do you go to? If you need a guy to tell you what Biblical languages are saying, who do you go to? My guy, not yours. You're just being argumentative because you feel under attack and I get that. I used to be a Witness so I can relate. Unfortunately, you're just wrong my friend.

[IvanDefendingTruth]

I feel it is unreasonable and superficial to say because someone has "credentials" they somehow know more than you or have better knowledge than you. That's simply untrue. You forget that many of these people with "credentials" are theologically bias. Theology, to most, comes before truth.

Look at Col 1:15 in the NIV. NIV committee surely had "credentials" yet they didn't use the Divine name once, and they inserted "over" rather than "of" for theological purposes. How's that for credentials?

[robotwookie]

For heavens sake, Ivan. If you don't see the point I've made, there's nothing I can do for you. As far as theological bias, OF COURSE that is the case. I absolutely know of a few translation biases found in mainstream Bibles. I know of A TON of them in the NWT. Remember, they didn't know how to translate the languages. They made a pick and choose Bible from theologians that agreed with them no matter who they were.That's why I go to experts who are neither Christian nor angry atheist professors

[IvanDefendingTruth]

What exactly is the "point" have you "made"?

[robotwookie]

That one who has been educated in a field is far more likely a reliable source....Maybe were not agreeing on the word 'credentials' ?

[robotwookie]

Would you like the long list of non-Christian and non-angry atheist linguists who have written letters on how poorly many aspects of the NWT were translated? You wont like what you read. But, if you believe they're guided by Satan, nothing can be proven to you. Much like trusting someone with credentials over someone who has none...

[shihtzufizzers]

@robotwookie I think you may be an apostate huh? why would anyone want a list of "non chrsitains" telling you what the bible says? christian means "to be like christ" follow closely his foot steps. and I know of only one faith that does that to the best of there ability. therefore, and after researching, I know NWT goes back to the ancient greek/hebrew writings and put into modern english. and I have scholars names who say that. If God can create an universe, he could protect his book-BIBLE

[robotwookie]

@shihtzufizzers Sorry it took so long to respond. I'm not sure if checking multiple sources on the original languages is exactly a bad thing. I would love to have a discussion on the NWT if you wish. I have had this conversation several times and it usually ends with a sudden stop in communication when the JW finds out what scholars actually say about it. It is not an honest translation. Would you welcome a civil, honest and scholarly discussion on this issue? I hope you do my friend. Cheers

[shihtzufizzers]

@IvanDefendingTruth Ivan, I agree w/ you. if you think about it, what credentials did the aposltes have? they were fisherman, carpenters,ect. see the point? One does not need to be a scolar to have an understanding. God shows us the way without have a "title" for education, experience and knowledge. mAny ppl are living proof of that. including the apostles

[robotwookie]

Read part two below DJ...

[aservantofjehovah]

Law of agency part2 Matthew10:40NASB"He that receives you,receives me(i.e the apostles were equivalent to Christ though not literally Christ),and he that receives me receives him that sent me(i.e Christ is equivalent to the one God but not literally the one God)"

[aservantofjehovah]

the representative of God is equivalent to God.that is why at judges13:21,22 the angel of God is called God its called the law of agency.We see that principle at work also with regard Christ and his apostles.John17:22KJV"And the glory which Thou gavest me I have given them that they may be one, as we are one"

[aservantofjehovah]

exodus7:1KJV"And the LORD said unto Moses,see,I have made thee a god to Pharaoh:and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet"exosdus22:28KJV"Thou shalt not revile the gods,nor curse the ruler of thy people"psalms82:6KJV"I have said ye are gods;and all of you are children of the most high"

[LightHasDawned]

"No one can say, Jesus is Lord, except by The Holy Spirit."

One can say it and believe it mentally, but to believe it in the way God means from our hearts, that is done for us by The Holy Spirit.

[LightHasDawned]

"There is no god besides Me."

"His Name will be called, "Mighty God."

End of argument.

Jesus is God.

[aservantofjehovah]

1chronicles29:20KJV"And David said to all the congregation,now bless the LORD your God.And all the congregation blessed the LORD God of their fathers,and bowed down their heads,and worshiped the LORD,AND the king.daniel2:46KJV"Then the king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face and WORSHIPED Daniel,and commanded that they should offer an oblation and sweet odors unto him"

[robotwookie]

Stafford is VERY sharp but he misses two very big points. 1)No one is to EVER worship anything other than God. How do we know? God said so. But, it's O.K. to worship an angel? What? 2) This is what the entire debate boils down to: if Stafford is correct and Jesus is a god, then we have a Zeus-Apollo set-up. If that is the case, we can all go home now. Do you understand that people? Everything being equal, that paradigm cannot exist. Why? Jehovah said he never created a god. Get it? ONE GOD

[acerimmeh]

Thanks for the upload, that was excellent.