The icing conditions and the control response in this video looks a lot like the NASA experiment on Tail Plane Icing Stall. Please go watch the NASA Tailplane Icing Video Glenn Research Center by airboyd 2 yr ago 23.21 min..
I am not a pilot but know enough about flight simulation. Why did the pilot kick back thrust while asking for gear and then 15 flaps. I mean he was holding 178 knots and would lose 30-40 knots easy with gear and flaps, and thus thats whats happend. I mean the pull back and thrust where death nails, but what happened 15 seconds before with air speed losss was far more illuminating. Sad and preventable.
jesus. I hate flying and when I am on a plane,which tends to be these turbo kinds, when the plane banks even a little bit I get alarmed and get serious butterflys....I can only imagine what a horror ride this must have been. RIP.
@n310ea the reason it stalled was because of severe icing, and the pilots failure to not change the configuration of the wings (ie, extending the flaps caused the airflow over the wings to stop, hence stalling).
Methinks pilots need more flight sim time. 70% of crashes are caused by human error and I think, in many cases, pilots have the correct knowledge but can freak out when faced when even minor problems in real life.
It is not a good thing to judge others in this way. Learn from mistakes that have been made, but do not talk badly about these pilots. They did not want to die and they did not want to kill their passengers. Have some respect. Nobody knows exactly what happened unless they were in the cockpit themselves. Even the FDR/CVR does not give us all the facts. None of us know exactly what the pilots were thinking or feeling. I recommend that you read up on what a Tail Stall is.
@emp29 now I know. The flaps killed the airspeed leading to the stall. The controls were yanked bank because of the stall and was not the reason for the stall. It was improper upset recovery that led to the crash like what camelpilot said.
The FDR indicated the plane was on Autopilot. Had it been "in the hands" of the PF, he would have noticed a lack of response due to icing and sluggishness. The shaker couldn't even save him from his lack of knowledge. In a stall, PUSH the stick forward to gain airspeed. He overrode the "pusher" for goodness sake and pulled back like he was riding a horse.
It turns out the pilots were too tired to do an adequate job. The female co-pilot made $16,000/yr. and lived in WA. The Pilot made $60,000/yr and lived in FL. After long flights, they slept in the pilots lounge in Newark the night before to save money on a hotel room.
Never make bad comments about the mistakes that other pilots have made. Learn from them but do not put other pilots down, especially when they have died. You were not in the cockpit and thus you do not know exactly what happened with or without FDR/CVR. We must respect each other. These pilots did not want to die nor did they want to kill other passengers. We are human and we make mistakes. As you gain more hours you will see what I mean.
i absolutely hate and despise how these regional companies to exploit in such terrible ways it's pilots; just because they need the experience, these carriers take advantage of young pilots and necessity. the FAA should do something productive for once and make sure that pilots are treated right and getting at descent livable salary.
"(Erie County Executive Chris)Collins said that .... [b]crew members had reported mechanical problems[/b] as they approached Buffalo Niagara International Airport."
Bottom line, they already knew that plane was in trouble well before landing!!
@starviego yeah, because telling the world that airlines are employing pilots who are incompetent, is a really good way to protect the industry. Feel free to make more ridiculous statements though.
Almost all the ground witnesses in the NTSB report said the plane sounded like it was suffering mechanical problems. Others said the plane was on fire as it was going down. Parts of the left engine were never recovered at the crash site. Witnesses noticed the plane flying low and level while still miles from the crash site. The whole thing is a massive coverup to protect the industry.
Mechanical failure? What the heck man? This is flying ABC.. stall is always resolved nose down to reduce the Angle of attack and you NEVER resolve that with ailerons.. PLUS the genius of copliot raised the flaps to 0...
At 2.08 the pilot yanks back on the stick aggravating the stall, and then keeps yanking back on the column, maintaining the stall, then uses aileron, which along with all his other chimp inputs is a death sentence to all the innocent passengers. You can blame a NASA all you want, but this is flying 101, to recover from a stall release the stick or reduce AOA. Most planes including this one will unstall itself. UNLESS THERE IS CHIMP TUGGING AT THE CONTROLS. These pilots were both chimps.
@camelpilot chimps yes. how many more asshole so called pilots are going to crash and kill innocents. af447 the french idiots, birgenair etcetcetc. the industry needs to be exposed.
@camelpilot In fact he induced the stall, he was several knots away from an aerodynamic stall by the time the stickshaker and airspeed warning sounded. You clearly have a limited knowledge of modern aircraft systems. And being that condescending towards the pilots really isn't necessary. Yes, the crash was caused by pilot error but how is you calling these pilots "chimps" going to solve anything? Show some respect, a lot of lives were lost and left many families mourning, including the pilots.
@camelpilot Spoken by a pilot who has never been in an emergency or anything remotely close. Keep making ignoramus comments that all the kids in University flight schools lap up because they think they're the best. You should be ashamed of yourself. As the second highest commenter referenced, maybe you will be when you get some more time.
@camelpilot Spoken by a pilot who has never been in an emergency or anything remotely close. Keep making ignoramus comments that all the kids in University flight schools lap up because they think they're the best. You should be ashamed of yourself. As the second highest commenter referenced, maybe you will be when you get some more time.
@camelpilot Spoken by a pilot who has never been in an emergency or anything remotely close. Keep making ignoramus comments that all the kids in University flight schools lap up because they think they're the best. You should be ashamed of yourself. As the second highest commenter referenced, maybe you will be when you get some more time.
The First Officer's pay was less than 15 000 per year. She just flew in from Seattle in a Cargo Flight while the Captain flew in from Miami. They couldn't afford any hotel near Newark...creating fatigue and lack of concentration. When the stall warning rang, the pilots pulled the controls instead of pushing...a theory pilots learned during their VFR. The question is...who is it really to blame? The pilots or the company?
The problem, as with all regionals is hiring low time pilots with no experience and paying beans. 1000 hours is nothing when your holding someone else's life in your hands. No reasonable person would fly on a regional if they knew how much the pilots in the cockpit didn't know. The only thing they care about is upgrading to bigger and better and how quick they can do it because that's what they were promised in flight school. You would have never see those pilots working for a charter company.
@12cfidan What kind of flight experience would you like your pilots to have? And if you could tell me exactly what a regional pilot doesn't know i would be grateful. You speak as if you know so much about the aviation industry. Curious as to your input.
Problems in the propeller control unit caused the left prop to 'disc' causing asymmetric drag, leading to an uncontrollable plunge. The 'pilot error' stuff was just made up to protect the carrier and manufacturer.
It’s amazing if those q-400's were in the fleet of continental air lines then the pilots would require an ATP and a Check ride from an FAA designee for a type rating. The only reason why they got around it is because continental sold the flight ticket not Colgan.
@cmritchie04 § 121.437 Pilot qualification: Certificates required.
(a) No pilot may act as pilot in command of an aircraft (or as second in command of an aircraft in a flag or supplemental operation that requires three or more pilots) unless he holds an airline transport pilot certificate and an appropriate type rating for that aircraft.
14 CFR Part 121 governs all scheduled air carriers. Meaning this rule applies to regionals as well as major airlines.
If you read the full cvr transcript from beginning to end you'll see that these pilots were two chatterboxes and that didn't pay full attention to the task at hand. Couple that with the fact that they were both inexperienced in general and had little to no experience with icing situations and you have a major disaster waiting to happen. They were not bad people, however, just naive and inexperienced. I feel really bad for everyone involved.
As a rule I like my pilots to have some gray hair.
Yes everyone knows to push, I bet you he did too. The real question is why did he let the airspeed drop like that, and why did he panic when the stall alarm went off. He was totally disconnected from what he was doing. He reacted totally irrationally.
Every student pilot is (or should be) drilled that the first reaction to stall is to push the stick forward. As a military pilot I was. However, without proper training on a stick-pusher I can imagine having a reaction to pull against it - especially low and slow. The Colgan Crew had no actual hands-on training with the stick pusher since it was not required by Fed Regs. What idiot decided that?
@jdamdamiguedira I believe the black box actually records the control inputs and the control inputs seem to indicate that he pulled back on the yoke after the stick shaker went off. Also he didn't have good throttle control either because you can see the speed bleeding off (and even before then, he's all over the place with the airspeed).
I wish some kind of parachute device could be deployed for planes like these. cut the engines and a heavy duty parachute deploys. yes a dream I know, but its scary when you see how there seems to be very little middle ground in these type of incidents. you either pull it together and land or everyone dies if you dont.
And they want us to believe that the pilot didn't have the same reflex with the control that he had with the throttles, this is bullshit, ice has formed on the elevators , disturbing the air flow and putting this plane into a noise high position, period.
They were monitoring the speed ,when they put the gear down, they increased RPM to maintain speed, but the speed fall anyway and the video illustrate another possibility, they say it themselves, after the stick shaker goes on , the plane suddenly enter into a noise high position, but look how the throttle engines reacted too, they were immediatly put to a full power position
I think Renslow felt like he was at too low of altitide to correctly recover from stall with nose down/throttle up.Sadly....that was the only way out.
The pilots acted incorrectly against their stall, first instead pushin nose down, the nose was pushed up, second the FEMALE first officer retracted the flaps while the plane was on it's stall speed, that is an action that is forbidden, then they retracted the gear, dont forget, while retracting you're landing gear, the movement of the gear up position produces even more drag then it was.It is a proof that pilots rely too much on automated systems and getting too lazy, and female pilots are bad
Comment about female pilots is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. I have worked/flown with many women that are amazing pilots well respected in our industry. You need to get training on cockpit management. If on a mission with someone you don't trust then you need to get out. If its just because they are a women, then you need to be fired! disgusting!
My thoughts are fatigue, training, weather all played a roll. comments on stall/ice management are basic fundamentals.
@airbornbtw hahahaahahahha cool comment, but still in general female pilots are more bad and faster distracted and more stressfull in case of emergency's then male pilots, but you are right, not every male is also an perfect pilot, it depends from the person itself, but i just have my ideas about it
I think this could have been avoided if they trusted their insruments. We are assuming they were tired, etc, but the visibilibility was low, it was dark, and they were relatively low. Still, they had more than enough room to recover. RIP
they were tired...thats the only thing that was wrong..they just werent able 2 preform well.. but heres a tip when stalling, Throttle up,nose down/forward/push forward. ): r.i.p
Colgan 3407 shows that major airline partners are not willing to take responsibility for the consequences of their regional partner's failures, but the majors are absolutely willing to reap the rewards of reduced costs that are produced by those same failures.
Pulling up was a gut instinct. An erroneous and disasterous one, agreed, and against training he had/should've had. But when you're that close to the ground (at night, in bad weather, on instruments) your instincts are more tuned towards not hitting the ground.
@PeteDriver530 they were 1500 feet agl, unless you're a helicopter pilot, instinct should be to push forward and give her full throttle... every time. they got it 1/2 right. very sad.
I recently saw the PBS Frontline special on this incident, Flying Cheap.....wow. I was shocked at the awful pay and conditions for the pilots. Is this really what we want to pay people who are flying your loved ones across the skies??!! Is this the deregulated free market paradise that the right are always going on about? Do we have to wait until people are killed as a "market signal." Talk about a race to the bottom....
@xpat73 Deregulated and unregulated are two different things. The fact is that basic economic theory supports the fact that airlines who have much leeway can lower costs, provide necessary service at reduced prices, provide jobs, etc. But no one with half a brain would argue that there shouldn't be rules and regulations that ensure passenger and crew safety above all else. I'm a Republican from New York, and I'm also a pilot, and I'm glad Schumer and Gillibrand brought this to light in Congress.
Just so everyone knows: The pilots of Colgan Air had to attend a "tail-stall" course about a month prior to the accident. As a professional pilot I know that if I found myself in a stall less than a month after training about it, the first thing that comes to mind is a "tail stall" and the recovery procedure is counter-intuitive (pitch up, not down). A tail stall has very subtle differences from that of a regular and are hard to distinguish which are which.
Why would the pilot try to raise the nose in a situation like that? Intuitively, the nose should go down, if your about to stall, and apply power. This is a reaction that would come quite naturally - even to most amateur pilots.
I am not a pilot.....I was wondering...on a scale of 1-10, with one as easy and 10 very difficult....how would you rate the difficulty of recovering control once the aircraft had alerted the pilot of a problem with speed/stall? Is this a routine recovery?
That's like asking "how would you rate the difficulty of recovering control if one of your tires blows out while driving", the answer for a plane is "It depends on everything, on the kind of plane, the altitude, the weight of the current payload, the temperature/weather, speed, etc..." just like you could have a flat at 20 mph and be fine you could have one at 70 that snatches the wheel from your hand.."
@eqtworld You're right that it does depend on all those factors, however this was a good question coming from someone who is not a pilot. This is a situation that was clearly easy as hell for 99.99% of all other professional pilots. With a different crew, there's no doubt in my mind this would not have happened. The captain had a history of failing his past checkrides. He was a terrible pilot.
I agree. Watching the control inputs in the video shows (IMO) a clear case of someone trained in sims who lost his mind when actually feeling the gforces of a stall. He probably 'knew' not to keep pulling on the stick but could not help it as it was his first time. There is no substitute for doing actual spin entries/recoveries during training (just my opinion)
@xpat73 At that altitude, it's a no brainier. It's a 1 out of 10. No other airline crash in history has resulted from an accidental stall. This pilot FAILED several of his check-rides. Every GOOD pilot knows to push FORWARD to recover during a stall. He panics, and asks a stupid question like "should the gear be up?" Heck yes it should be up, but he's having trouble handling the basics of even control. Pilot salaries need to be increased to attract more skilled professionals.
I live in Lockport, New York, a suburb about 10-15 miles away, and I could hear the explosion from the plane at my house on that night, it was the scariest thing that has ever happened to me. I still don't think I'm going to ride a plane for a while...
@Danind03 just saying, its been officially proved that flying is the safest way of transportation. Its people like you that see ONE incident out of thousands and thousands of flights everyday and say they're never going on a plane again that are the reason the aviation industry is going to shit and laying off pilots and reducing wages. Thanks.
PC12 Captain, you are an idiot. Look at the power levers. They are almost idle. He put the gear down and the airplane slowed down to the point of stall. He thought it was a tail stall because of the reported icing at the time but because he is a overworked, underpaid American pilot he fucked up and applied the wrong recover technique. This aggravated the conventional stall and it put the last nail in the coffin. What I just love about this is how the news (CNN, Fox, etc) automatically tried to
All this analysis of this crash,,,"oh it was a tail stall....", "wouldn't the pusher fix this?" "...it was all that ice on the wing..."
The truth...it was a stall years in the making.
caused by crap "regional" contract conditions. Shit pay, lack of sleep..communting across the f'n country... subpar training because after all "we met the FAA guidlines"...yes they wil always "meet" the guidlines, anything more is just a waste of money.
I know it's an unpopular view but I don't think this was pilot error, weather related or any kind of accident.
Look at the passenger list. Among other notable passengers was Beverly Eckert. She met with Pres. Obama less than 3 weeks after his inaugaration AND only DAYS before this crash. When she met with Obama she discussed her doubts about 9/11.
This crash was meant to send the new President a message. 'Don't get any wise ideas about re-opening any investigation about 9/11.'
At Colgan, the pilots had been required to see a NASA video on tail plane stalls, in which the correct response was to raise the nose and retract the flaps – the very thing that caused the Colgan crash. By Colgan showing this video it introduced an element of negative learning. The Q400 was not vulnerable to tail plane stall, according to the manufacturer, and the stick shaker was designed to respond to a main wing stall.
It could have been a tail stall, which the recovery is opposite to a normal stall. A large decay of airspeed was noted once futher flap was put down. High wing aircraft are prone to tail stalls in icing when flaps are selected beyond 15 degrees.
It could have been a tail stall, which the recovery is opposite to a normal stall. A large decay of airspeed was noted once futher flap was put down. High wing aircraft are prone to tail stalls in icing when flaps are selected beyond 15 degrees.
@PC12Captain if it had been a tail stall due to icing, then wouldn't their actions have prevented the crash? in a tail stall situation the recommended recovery procedure is to pitch up, which they did and "retract the flaps to their previous position" which they also did.
could have been a tail stall, which the recovery is opposite to a stall. A large decay of airspeed was noted once futher flap was put down. High wing aircraft are prone to tail stalls in icing when flaps are selected beyond 15 degrees.
Once the flaps came to zero while the speed was decaying in such a manner, the inversion was a foregone conclusion, and this severe bank and inversion takes about 2000-2500 feet for a recovery. It's not about the pusher, nor the stall warning, nor even the thrust application (or lack thereof) after gear extension. Bad weather (heavy icing condtions), poor Captain technique, and a critical arbitrary bad decision to bring the flaps to zero by the copilot, all came together to end this one.
The Icing was primary in the aircraft upset, but secondary in the actual crash. The primary cause of the crash was the first officers incorrect and arbitrary selection of flaps to zero while the aircraft was at a critical pitch and speed. Had the flaps been left at the 10 selection throughout the upset, the depth of the stall would not have been nearly as severe, and there is a good probabilty that the recovery could have been accomplished before ground contact.
The Icing was primary in the aircraft upset, but secondary in the actual crash. The primary cause of the crash was the first officers incorrect and arbitrary selection of flaps to zero while the aircraft was at a critical pitch and speed. Had the flaps been left at the 10 selection throughout the upset, the depth of the stall would not have been nearly as severe, and there is a good probabilty that the recovery could have been accomplished before ground contact.
@robertl30 The point was that their training, when iced, was to pitch back. They were never trained what to do if they were iced and stalling, and, being human, made a mistake and did the wrong thing in the heat of the moment.
@robertl30 Except if you have been awake for way too long, and due to your lack of rest, misread the stall and believe it's a compressor stall. Then you would pull back, which would be the correct procedural course of action. So don't try dissing these pilots. Everyone can sit on their computers on youtube and pretend like they are smart and know what they are talking about. The thing is, you weren't up there in the cockpit that night. END OF STORY.
@LegendxHD Hard to have a compressor stall in an aircraft with no jet engines, but whatever. What we had here was two kids not maintaining proper sterile cockpit, not flying the aircraft properly, and then panicking and making exactly opposite inputs to recover. As far as not being in the cockpit well we all were, that's what this video shows. In fact, if the pilot and unbuckled and left the cockpit, the plane would most likely have recovered on its own. These pilots just made things worse.
@robertl30 Excuse me, you are correct. It wasn't a compressor stall. I am sorry but I forget the name of the type of stall, but they had their reasons for doing what they did. I think the main issue was their lack of sleep, which was what was investigated the most anyways afterwards by the media.
@robertl30 A turboprop engine (the engines the Q400 is equiped with) is actually a jet engine that is geared to a propeller. This engine can experience a compresssor stall.
@JumpStartation Sadly, I think I'm too old at 43 to start flying for the airlines. I just fool around in my Warrior. I think these kids were both in their 20s though. Better training is the key to preventing this in the future.
@JumpStartation Which point? I don't understand. The one where you missed guessing my age? Or the one where you show you don't know much about aviation? Or are you agreeing that more training was needed? Maybe we are on the same page. I'm not sure what you mean.
FWIW, I talked to a former Q400 pilot. At the point the aircraft stalled, the results were "baked in the cake". However, the best procedure would have been nose down and full power. The plane would have "mushed along" for a period, until airspeed would have built up to regain altitude. This is pretty much from "Stick and Rudder".
Seems like a clear case of pilot error by not paying attention to airspeed after lowering the gear and then a bad stall recovery by pulling on the yoke. BUT... I think that the AP kicked off automatically at the stall and the pusher did not engage. I think that if the yoke had been pushed just a little when the AP turn off the plane would have survived. Also the shaker should have kicked in much earlier when the plane was heading toward the stall speed, to warn the pilots.
I understand that the pilot did the wrong thing upon going into a stall, but does anyone know what caused the plane to lose speed to begin with? That's what I can never find out.
@nj8ive Because they didn't increase power after extending the gear. The gear creates a lot of drag that slows the plane down. If they were in a descent it might not have caused a stall but the autopilot was trying to maintain altitude.
@Gabrielg787 That's incorrect actually, they were in descent. Look at the two indicators above the yoke: shaker and pusher (the pusher actually brings the yoke forward). That was the autopilot's attempt to break the stall, but the pilot pulled back anyway. The NTSB blamed this one on the pilot. Really a tragic case.
@newcombstrohschein You are partly correct. That is what happened AFTER the plane entered a stall condition. Before that, the autopilot was trying to hold altitude as the gear slowed down the plane. That is why the nose came up. They were not descending. You can see by the vertical speed indicator that they were maintaining altitude until the stall, plus the pilot says "localizer alive" just a few seconds before the stall. The glideslope was not yet active, only the localizer.
the captain kept pulling back on the yoke even though he got a stick shaker??? yes, they were at a low altitude, but i don't think the aircraft wouldn't have made such a violent roll if the nose was brought back down.
my first experiance in cadets was to apply foward pressure to keep nose level, its something I don't even think about anymore. How do you loose track of airspeed like that on approach being so low ?
Sully had more altitude, better weather, greater visibility, and a more advanced aircraft. Let's keep some perspective: mistakes were made that cost lives, including the crew. It is easy to watch youtbe videos and make judgments about scenarios that the viewer has never experienced.
Sully would have never allowed the a/c to get into that situation in the first place.
I agree with you though. YouTube speculation pisses me off. Almost as much as ppl posting FSX videos on here. I (or the rest of the aviation community), don't give a flying f**k about their simulator videos. How about I start posting animated videos of myself answering phones all day?
@xpat73 The stick shaker is nothing more than an artificial buffet which is what you would experince in a much smaller aircraft.A larger aircraft with a high wing loading such as this aircraft needs a stick shaker to warn the pilot he is getting close to a stall.In this paticular case the aircraft was loaded up with ice and once the pilot chose gesr down and first setting of flaps it stalled do to the load of ice.Stick shackers dont sense altitude,only lack of airspeed.
@DelfinoDelphis It's a natural tendency to want to pull up during a stall as your wanting the plane to fly. During the stall the "Stick Pusher" was activated by the system in order to recover, however the pilot overrode that as well likely because of the low altitude involved.
I not sure the pilot even realized the pending stall was approaching; he went from 185knts to 130 within 27seconds.
I dont like this a/c design anyway its look like too short for the wing the flight envelope must be to short, until I know this one has a compartment for the all cargo only i the rear side, I not said that it was out of range but this plane thing can be unstable at certain conditions.
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@smallboned100 ...pissificly...??? Specifically!
4crevis 2 weeks ago in playlist NTSB and FAA Aviation Investigation Animations
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4crevis 2 weeks ago in playlist NTSB and FAA Aviation Investigation Animations
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4crevis 2 weeks ago in playlist NTSB and FAA Aviation Investigation Animations
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4crevis 2 weeks ago in playlist NTSB and FAA Aviation Investigation Animations
what game?
Semdente1992 4 weeks ago
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The icing conditions and the control response in this video looks a lot like the NASA experiment on Tail Plane Icing Stall. Please go watch the NASA Tailplane Icing Video Glenn Research Center by airboyd 2 yr ago 23.21 min..
myHome109 1 month ago in playlist NTSB Animations
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I am not a pilot but know enough about flight simulation. Why did the pilot kick back thrust while asking for gear and then 15 flaps. I mean he was holding 178 knots and would lose 30-40 knots easy with gear and flaps, and thus thats whats happend. I mean the pull back and thrust where death nails, but what happened 15 seconds before with air speed losss was far more illuminating. Sad and preventable.
whazzupwithgolf 3 months ago
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@n310e no, that is the illusion for the aircrafts size. The wings are proportionally sized correctly.
FlightSimmer948 3 months ago
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FlightSimmer948 3 months ago
jesus. I hate flying and when I am on a plane,which tends to be these turbo kinds, when the plane banks even a little bit I get alarmed and get serious butterflys....I can only imagine what a horror ride this must have been. RIP.
glennjridge 3 months ago
The aircraft was poorly designed, the wings are too skinny, making it easy to stall.
n310ea 3 months ago
@n310ea the reason it stalled was because of severe icing, and the pilots failure to not change the configuration of the wings (ie, extending the flaps caused the airflow over the wings to stop, hence stalling).
DYLAV8R 4 weeks ago in playlist NTSB and FAA Aviation Investigation Animations
Methinks pilots need more flight sim time. 70% of crashes are caused by human error and I think, in many cases, pilots have the correct knowledge but can freak out when faced when even minor problems in real life.
8Ho03EdONl1liL 4 months ago 2
It is not a good thing to judge others in this way. Learn from mistakes that have been made, but do not talk badly about these pilots. They did not want to die and they did not want to kill their passengers. Have some respect. Nobody knows exactly what happened unless they were in the cockpit themselves. Even the FDR/CVR does not give us all the facts. None of us know exactly what the pilots were thinking or feeling. I recommend that you read up on what a Tail Stall is.
davinjjames 4 months ago
I don't understand. What caused the pilots to do those actions that led to the stall?
emp29 4 months ago
@emp29 now I know. The flaps killed the airspeed leading to the stall. The controls were yanked bank because of the stall and was not the reason for the stall. It was improper upset recovery that led to the crash like what camelpilot said.
emp29 4 months ago
Thanks. Then i was right.
Kamilohbk 4 months ago
I got my commercial pilots license from Wikipeadia too!
Orangebike666 4 months ago
nose up flaps 0, yeah that will do it. They must have not flown manually to often other then t/o and landings. Smh.........sad...........
mywy1std33 5 months ago
The FDR indicated the plane was on Autopilot. Had it been "in the hands" of the PF, he would have noticed a lack of response due to icing and sluggishness. The shaker couldn't even save him from his lack of knowledge. In a stall, PUSH the stick forward to gain airspeed. He overrode the "pusher" for goodness sake and pulled back like he was riding a horse.
captaingary76 5 months ago
It turns out the pilots were too tired to do an adequate job. The female co-pilot made $16,000/yr. and lived in WA. The Pilot made $60,000/yr and lived in FL. After long flights, they slept in the pilots lounge in Newark the night before to save money on a hotel room.
DCFunBud 5 months ago
Was it the pilots' fault the the plane stalled?
DCFunBud 5 months ago
@DCFunBud According to NTSB yes.
Kamilohbk 5 months ago
@DCFunBud Totally the pilot's fault
bobby3outs 4 months ago
fok these two chimps !!!
Chowbizful 5 months ago
I'm a student pilot with fewer than 50 hours, and even I know that to break a stall you don't pull back.
jacobflaschen 5 months ago
@jacobflaschen So, what you do? pull in front ?
Kamilohbk 5 months ago
@Kamilohbk Push forward.
flintp51 4 months ago
Never make bad comments about the mistakes that other pilots have made. Learn from them but do not put other pilots down, especially when they have died. You were not in the cockpit and thus you do not know exactly what happened with or without FDR/CVR. We must respect each other. These pilots did not want to die nor did they want to kill other passengers. We are human and we make mistakes. As you gain more hours you will see what I mean.
davinjjames 4 months ago 11
i absolutely hate and despise how these regional companies to exploit in such terrible ways it's pilots; just because they need the experience, these carriers take advantage of young pilots and necessity. the FAA should do something productive for once and make sure that pilots are treated right and getting at descent livable salary.
xfernydrummerX 5 months ago
"(Erie County Executive Chris)Collins said that .... [b]crew members had reported mechanical problems[/b] as they approached Buffalo Niagara International Airport."
Bottom line, they already knew that plane was in trouble well before landing!!
starviego 5 months ago
@starviego yeah, because telling the world that airlines are employing pilots who are incompetent, is a really good way to protect the industry. Feel free to make more ridiculous statements though.
gazw81 6 months ago
Almost all the ground witnesses in the NTSB report said the plane sounded like it was suffering mechanical problems. Others said the plane was on fire as it was going down. Parts of the left engine were never recovered at the crash site. Witnesses noticed the plane flying low and level while still miles from the crash site. The whole thing is a massive coverup to protect the industry.
starviego 6 months ago
Mechanical failure? What the heck man? This is flying ABC.. stall is always resolved nose down to reduce the Angle of attack and you NEVER resolve that with ailerons.. PLUS the genius of copliot raised the flaps to 0...
bulloramone 6 months ago
The evidence for mechanical failure can be found here:
abovetopsecretdotcom/forum/thread473176/pg1
starviego 6 months ago
should have flaps max nose down
efastMixer 6 months ago
At 2.08 the pilot yanks back on the stick aggravating the stall, and then keeps yanking back on the column, maintaining the stall, then uses aileron, which along with all his other chimp inputs is a death sentence to all the innocent passengers. You can blame a NASA all you want, but this is flying 101, to recover from a stall release the stick or reduce AOA. Most planes including this one will unstall itself. UNLESS THERE IS CHIMP TUGGING AT THE CONTROLS. These pilots were both chimps.
camelpilot 6 months ago 14
@camelpilot chimps yes. how many more asshole so called pilots are going to crash and kill innocents. af447 the french idiots, birgenair etcetcetc. the industry needs to be exposed.
plasticspastic201 5 months ago
@camelpilot So many disrespectful comments here, to think you are a pilot... I don't think I would want you to fly any plane I am on.
MrDaz123321 3 months ago
@camelpilot In fact he induced the stall, he was several knots away from an aerodynamic stall by the time the stickshaker and airspeed warning sounded. You clearly have a limited knowledge of modern aircraft systems. And being that condescending towards the pilots really isn't necessary. Yes, the crash was caused by pilot error but how is you calling these pilots "chimps" going to solve anything? Show some respect, a lot of lives were lost and left many families mourning, including the pilots.
gt5004life 3 weeks ago 2
@gt5004life I agree. Pilots are humans and make errors just like humans in all other professions, its just a fact.
Pvjinflight 2 weeks ago
@camelpilot Spoken by a pilot who has never been in an emergency or anything remotely close. Keep making ignoramus comments that all the kids in University flight schools lap up because they think they're the best. You should be ashamed of yourself. As the second highest commenter referenced, maybe you will be when you get some more time.
cptnbennett 14 hours ago
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@camelpilot Spoken by a pilot who has never been in an emergency or anything remotely close. Keep making ignoramus comments that all the kids in University flight schools lap up because they think they're the best. You should be ashamed of yourself. As the second highest commenter referenced, maybe you will be when you get some more time.
cptnbennett 14 hours ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@camelpilot Spoken by a pilot who has never been in an emergency or anything remotely close. Keep making ignoramus comments that all the kids in University flight schools lap up because they think they're the best. You should be ashamed of yourself. As the second highest commenter referenced, maybe you will be when you get some more time.
cptnbennett 14 hours ago
The First Officer's pay was less than 15 000 per year. She just flew in from Seattle in a Cargo Flight while the Captain flew in from Miami. They couldn't afford any hotel near Newark...creating fatigue and lack of concentration. When the stall warning rang, the pilots pulled the controls instead of pushing...a theory pilots learned during their VFR. The question is...who is it really to blame? The pilots or the company?
HHan13 7 months ago
The problem, as with all regionals is hiring low time pilots with no experience and paying beans. 1000 hours is nothing when your holding someone else's life in your hands. No reasonable person would fly on a regional if they knew how much the pilots in the cockpit didn't know. The only thing they care about is upgrading to bigger and better and how quick they can do it because that's what they were promised in flight school. You would have never see those pilots working for a charter company.
12cfidan 7 months ago 2
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bennyworldwide 5 months ago
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bennyworldwide 5 months ago
@12cfidan What kind of flight experience would you like your pilots to have? And if you could tell me exactly what a regional pilot doesn't know i would be grateful. You speak as if you know so much about the aviation industry. Curious as to your input.
nlrgula 4 months ago
Problems in the propeller control unit caused the left prop to 'disc' causing asymmetric drag, leading to an uncontrollable plunge. The 'pilot error' stuff was just made up to protect the carrier and manufacturer.
starviego 7 months ago
@starviego How do you know that?
MrBouyahKasha 6 months ago
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cmritchie04 7 months ago
It’s amazing if those q-400's were in the fleet of continental air lines then the pilots would require an ATP and a Check ride from an FAA designee for a type rating. The only reason why they got around it is because continental sold the flight ticket not Colgan.
cmritchie04 7 months ago
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MrDIGTBK 7 months ago
@cmritchie04 § 121.437 Pilot qualification: Certificates required.
(a) No pilot may act as pilot in command of an aircraft (or as second in command of an aircraft in a flag or supplemental operation that requires three or more pilots) unless he holds an airline transport pilot certificate and an appropriate type rating for that aircraft.
14 CFR Part 121 governs all scheduled air carriers. Meaning this rule applies to regionals as well as major airlines.
MrDIGTBK 7 months ago
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cmritchie04 7 months ago
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cmritchie04 7 months ago
shoud have some kind of alpha protection.
Maytenus32 7 months ago
don't fault the pilot, she was rushing to my house to make me a sandwich.
redSHIFT69 8 months ago
I have seen this on Mayday, it was a pretty bad crash.
MARKSTER711 8 months ago
It's nearly impossible to crash that type of plane.
Wouldn't you know it-- they built a plane that's nearly impossible to crash and then they hired pilots who could crash it.
matt605 8 months ago
If you read the full cvr transcript from beginning to end you'll see that these pilots were two chatterboxes and that didn't pay full attention to the task at hand. Couple that with the fact that they were both inexperienced in general and had little to no experience with icing situations and you have a major disaster waiting to happen. They were not bad people, however, just naive and inexperienced. I feel really bad for everyone involved.
As a rule I like my pilots to have some gray hair.
darreno1450 8 months ago
Yes everyone knows to push, I bet you he did too. The real question is why did he let the airspeed drop like that, and why did he panic when the stall alarm went off. He was totally disconnected from what he was doing. He reacted totally irrationally.
szucsbela 8 months ago
Every student pilot is (or should be) drilled that the first reaction to stall is to push the stick forward. As a military pilot I was. However, without proper training on a stick-pusher I can imagine having a reaction to pull against it - especially low and slow. The Colgan Crew had no actual hands-on training with the stick pusher since it was not required by Fed Regs. What idiot decided that?
GSDirtboy 8 months ago
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He was in the middle of a fantasy involving his co pilot and when he heard her scream he pulled out.
crimsontiderdotcom 8 months ago
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crimsontiderdotcom 8 months ago
When what??
Kyranoboss 8 months ago
@jdamdamiguedira I believe the black box actually records the control inputs and the control inputs seem to indicate that he pulled back on the yoke after the stick shaker went off. Also he didn't have good throttle control either because you can see the speed bleeding off (and even before then, he's all over the place with the airspeed).
thediggyk 9 months ago
I wish some kind of parachute device could be deployed for planes like these. cut the engines and a heavy duty parachute deploys. yes a dream I know, but its scary when you see how there seems to be very little middle ground in these type of incidents. you either pull it together and land or everyone dies if you dont.
known12 9 months ago
whew what a nightmare
titgazer 9 months ago
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jdamdamiguedira 9 months ago
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jdamdamiguedira 9 months ago
And they want us to believe that the pilot didn't have the same reflex with the control that he had with the throttles, this is bullshit, ice has formed on the elevators , disturbing the air flow and putting this plane into a noise high position, period.
jdamdamiguedira 9 months ago
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jdamdamiguedira 9 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
They were monitoring the speed ,when they put the gear down, they increased RPM to maintain speed, but the speed fall anyway and the video illustrate another possibility, they say it themselves, after the stick shaker goes on , the plane suddenly enter into a noise high position, but look how the throttle engines reacted too, they were immediatly put to a full power position
jdamdamiguedira 9 months ago
Why did they reduce power at the last moment?
Kyranoboss 9 months ago
@Kyranoboss:
When?
bethpage89 8 months ago
Sorry, I see it now, looks like at 22:16:29 the setting goes from 'flight idle' up to where it says 'rating' wasn't sure what this means?
Kyranoboss 8 months ago
I think Renslow felt like he was at too low of altitide to correctly recover from stall with nose down/throttle up.Sadly....that was the only way out.
allstarjeff1 9 months ago
I read in Flying Magazine that the pilot eventually beat out the stick pusher by pulling on the yoke with 160 pounds of force......... stubborn?
cowofawesome 9 months ago
The pilots acted incorrectly against their stall, first instead pushin nose down, the nose was pushed up, second the FEMALE first officer retracted the flaps while the plane was on it's stall speed, that is an action that is forbidden, then they retracted the gear, dont forget, while retracting you're landing gear, the movement of the gear up position produces even more drag then it was.It is a proof that pilots rely too much on automated systems and getting too lazy, and female pilots are bad
zfreak90 9 months ago
@zfreak90
Comment about female pilots is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. I have worked/flown with many women that are amazing pilots well respected in our industry. You need to get training on cockpit management. If on a mission with someone you don't trust then you need to get out. If its just because they are a women, then you need to be fired! disgusting!
My thoughts are fatigue, training, weather all played a roll. comments on stall/ice management are basic fundamentals.
airbornbtw 9 months ago
@airbornbtw hahahaahahahha cool comment, but still in general female pilots are more bad and faster distracted and more stressfull in case of emergency's then male pilots, but you are right, not every male is also an perfect pilot, it depends from the person itself, but i just have my ideas about it
zfreak90 9 months ago
@zfreak90 Your "ideas" are ignorant and prejudiced. I hope you aren't a commercial or military pilot.
lodengreeneyes 8 months ago
They were tired and weren't think right. They incorrectly pulled up when they should of pushed down
JTJordan18796 9 months ago
I think this could have been avoided if they trusted their insruments. We are assuming they were tired, etc, but the visibilibility was low, it was dark, and they were relatively low. Still, they had more than enough room to recover. RIP
MusicalDarkHorse 10 months ago
If only they were watching their airspeed.
thatBMWkid 10 months ago
they were tired...thats the only thing that was wrong..they just werent able 2 preform well.. but heres a tip when stalling, Throttle up,nose down/forward/push forward. ): r.i.p
gokuta333 10 months ago
Colgan 3407 shows that major airline partners are not willing to take responsibility for the consequences of their regional partner's failures, but the majors are absolutely willing to reap the rewards of reduced costs that are produced by those same failures.
readi343 10 months ago
What is a condition lever?
Hupiscratch 11 months ago
@Hupiscratch
It is the pitch angle of the props.Like low and high gear! they want it high for TO and Landings
EF2000CanFly 11 months ago
@EF2000CanFly Ah, thanks for the comment. I knew what was the propeller pitch control, but not with this name.
Hupiscratch 11 months ago
Oh my god, so you retract the flaps in a stall? how stupid is that??
zaphr89 11 months ago
what simulator is this?¿
luispepeful 11 months ago
Pulling up was a gut instinct. An erroneous and disasterous one, agreed, and against training he had/should've had. But when you're that close to the ground (at night, in bad weather, on instruments) your instincts are more tuned towards not hitting the ground.
PeteDriver530 11 months ago
@PeteDriver530 they were 1500 feet agl, unless you're a helicopter pilot, instinct should be to push forward and give her full throttle... every time. they got it 1/2 right. very sad.
jwboll 11 months ago
rofl watch?v=YNoh3Xi8pvs
amanitalawbreakerbs 1 year ago
I recently saw the PBS Frontline special on this incident, Flying Cheap.....wow. I was shocked at the awful pay and conditions for the pilots. Is this really what we want to pay people who are flying your loved ones across the skies??!! Is this the deregulated free market paradise that the right are always going on about? Do we have to wait until people are killed as a "market signal." Talk about a race to the bottom....
xpat73 1 year ago
@xpat73 Deregulated and unregulated are two different things. The fact is that basic economic theory supports the fact that airlines who have much leeway can lower costs, provide necessary service at reduced prices, provide jobs, etc. But no one with half a brain would argue that there shouldn't be rules and regulations that ensure passenger and crew safety above all else. I'm a Republican from New York, and I'm also a pilot, and I'm glad Schumer and Gillibrand brought this to light in Congress.
pryan37bb 11 months ago
Fuck man I wonder what was going through those poor people's minds when the plane was rolling hard like that. Beyond terrifying.
marcphilos 1 year ago
Just so everyone knows: The pilots of Colgan Air had to attend a "tail-stall" course about a month prior to the accident. As a professional pilot I know that if I found myself in a stall less than a month after training about it, the first thing that comes to mind is a "tail stall" and the recovery procedure is counter-intuitive (pitch up, not down). A tail stall has very subtle differences from that of a regular and are hard to distinguish which are which.
bjm9point 1 year ago
Why would the pilot try to raise the nose in a situation like that? Intuitively, the nose should go down, if your about to stall, and apply power. This is a reaction that would come quite naturally - even to most amateur pilots.
zadeh79 1 year ago
I am not a pilot.....I was wondering...on a scale of 1-10, with one as easy and 10 very difficult....how would you rate the difficulty of recovering control once the aircraft had alerted the pilot of a problem with speed/stall? Is this a routine recovery?
Thanks.
xpat73 1 year ago
@xpat73
That's like asking "how would you rate the difficulty of recovering control if one of your tires blows out while driving", the answer for a plane is "It depends on everything, on the kind of plane, the altitude, the weight of the current payload, the temperature/weather, speed, etc..." just like you could have a flat at 20 mph and be fine you could have one at 70 that snatches the wheel from your hand.."
eqtworld 1 year ago
@eqtworld You're right that it does depend on all those factors, however this was a good question coming from someone who is not a pilot. This is a situation that was clearly easy as hell for 99.99% of all other professional pilots. With a different crew, there's no doubt in my mind this would not have happened. The captain had a history of failing his past checkrides. He was a terrible pilot.
aviatortrevor 1 year ago
@aviatortrevor
I agree. Watching the control inputs in the video shows (IMO) a clear case of someone trained in sims who lost his mind when actually feeling the gforces of a stall. He probably 'knew' not to keep pulling on the stick but could not help it as it was his first time. There is no substitute for doing actual spin entries/recoveries during training (just my opinion)
eqtworld 1 year ago
@xpat73 At that altitude, it's a no brainier. It's a 1 out of 10. No other airline crash in history has resulted from an accidental stall. This pilot FAILED several of his check-rides. Every GOOD pilot knows to push FORWARD to recover during a stall. He panics, and asks a stupid question like "should the gear be up?" Heck yes it should be up, but he's having trouble handling the basics of even control. Pilot salaries need to be increased to attract more skilled professionals.
aviatortrevor 1 year ago
"Should the gear be up"? What a dumb question.
astar334 1 year ago
I live in Lockport, New York, a suburb about 10-15 miles away, and I could hear the explosion from the plane at my house on that night, it was the scariest thing that has ever happened to me. I still don't think I'm going to ride a plane for a while...
Danind03 1 year ago
@Danind03 just saying, its been officially proved that flying is the safest way of transportation. Its people like you that see ONE incident out of thousands and thousands of flights everyday and say they're never going on a plane again that are the reason the aviation industry is going to shit and laying off pilots and reducing wages. Thanks.
youronlysolution 1 year ago
PC12 Captain, you are an idiot. Look at the power levers. They are almost idle. He put the gear down and the airplane slowed down to the point of stall. He thought it was a tail stall because of the reported icing at the time but because he is a overworked, underpaid American pilot he fucked up and applied the wrong recover technique. This aggravated the conventional stall and it put the last nail in the coffin. What I just love about this is how the news (CNN, Fox, etc) automatically tried to
lucutes 1 year ago
All this analysis of this crash,,,"oh it was a tail stall....", "wouldn't the pusher fix this?" "...it was all that ice on the wing..."
The truth...it was a stall years in the making.
caused by crap "regional" contract conditions. Shit pay, lack of sleep..communting across the f'n country... subpar training because after all "we met the FAA guidlines"...yes they wil always "meet" the guidlines, anything more is just a waste of money.
PIlotrcm 1 year ago
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PIlotrcm 1 year ago
Wasn't this flight from Albany?
MrIssues2 1 year ago
That happens when a bitch doesn't look at his airspeed on landing...
Laudan08 1 year ago
@Laudan08 Show some respect for fuck sake!
gt5004life 1 year ago
*Leslie Nielsen
Accidental misspell.
jelinto 1 year ago
UPDATE: I was not aware of Leslie Nelson's death yesterday when I posted my previous comments last night.
It is perhaps a coincidence, synchronicity or something I don't understand.
jelinto 1 year ago
I know it's an unpopular view but I don't think this was pilot error, weather related or any kind of accident.
Look at the passenger list. Among other notable passengers was Beverly Eckert. She met with Pres. Obama less than 3 weeks after his inaugaration AND only DAYS before this crash. When she met with Obama she discussed her doubts about 9/11.
This crash was meant to send the new President a message. 'Don't get any wise ideas about re-opening any investigation about 9/11.'
jelinto 1 year ago
...It's also a sick joke amongst the spooks. The crash site was in Clarence Center, NY.
Remember the old comedy movie, "Airplane!"? Remember the lines, "We have clearance, Clarence.", "Roger, Roger. What's our vector, Victor?"
Now use google to find an original movie poster for that "Airplane!" movie and read what it says.
jelinto 1 year ago
At Colgan, the pilots had been required to see a NASA video on tail plane stalls, in which the correct response was to raise the nose and retract the flaps – the very thing that caused the Colgan crash. By Colgan showing this video it introduced an element of negative learning. The Q400 was not vulnerable to tail plane stall, according to the manufacturer, and the stick shaker was designed to respond to a main wing stall.
mikearuba 1 year ago 5
This has a lot of indicators of a tail stall, but I will leave it to the "experts" to come to exact reason.
PC12Captain 1 year ago
@PC12Captain Have you read the NTSB final report?
NTSB Report Number: AAR-10-01
Check it out.
contrail25 1 year ago
Jvr553, A tail stall recovery also requires the pilots to reduce power, and not reduce flaps beyond 15 deg.
PC12Captain 1 year ago
wasn't it a wake encounter?
showtime15o 1 year ago
im such a good pilot, the NTSB made a video about me!!! XD
MrFenderStrat7 1 year ago
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It could have been a tail stall, which the recovery is opposite to a normal stall. A large decay of airspeed was noted once futher flap was put down. High wing aircraft are prone to tail stalls in icing when flaps are selected beyond 15 degrees.
PC12Captain 1 year ago
It could have been a tail stall, which the recovery is opposite to a normal stall. A large decay of airspeed was noted once futher flap was put down. High wing aircraft are prone to tail stalls in icing when flaps are selected beyond 15 degrees.
PC12Captain 1 year ago
@PC12Captain if it had been a tail stall due to icing, then wouldn't their actions have prevented the crash? in a tail stall situation the recommended recovery procedure is to pitch up, which they did and "retract the flaps to their previous position" which they also did.
jvr553 1 year ago
could have been a tail stall, which the recovery is opposite to a stall. A large decay of airspeed was noted once futher flap was put down. High wing aircraft are prone to tail stalls in icing when flaps are selected beyond 15 degrees.
PC12Captain 1 year ago
Once the flaps came to zero while the speed was decaying in such a manner, the inversion was a foregone conclusion, and this severe bank and inversion takes about 2000-2500 feet for a recovery. It's not about the pusher, nor the stall warning, nor even the thrust application (or lack thereof) after gear extension. Bad weather (heavy icing condtions), poor Captain technique, and a critical arbitrary bad decision to bring the flaps to zero by the copilot, all came together to end this one.
gaberle1 1 year ago
The Icing was primary in the aircraft upset, but secondary in the actual crash. The primary cause of the crash was the first officers incorrect and arbitrary selection of flaps to zero while the aircraft was at a critical pitch and speed. Had the flaps been left at the 10 selection throughout the upset, the depth of the stall would not have been nearly as severe, and there is a good probabilty that the recovery could have been accomplished before ground contact.
gaberle1 1 year ago
The Icing was primary in the aircraft upset, but secondary in the actual crash. The primary cause of the crash was the first officers incorrect and arbitrary selection of flaps to zero while the aircraft was at a critical pitch and speed. Had the flaps been left at the 10 selection throughout the upset, the depth of the stall would not have been nearly as severe, and there is a good probabilty that the recovery could have been accomplished before ground contact.
gaberle1 1 year ago
here's a tip: when you stall, push forward. That was easy.
robertl30 1 year ago 19
@robertl30 The point was that their training, when iced, was to pitch back. They were never trained what to do if they were iced and stalling, and, being human, made a mistake and did the wrong thing in the heat of the moment.
blueb0g 11 months ago
@robertl30 Except if you have been awake for way too long, and due to your lack of rest, misread the stall and believe it's a compressor stall. Then you would pull back, which would be the correct procedural course of action. So don't try dissing these pilots. Everyone can sit on their computers on youtube and pretend like they are smart and know what they are talking about. The thing is, you weren't up there in the cockpit that night. END OF STORY.
LegendxHD 8 months ago
@LegendxHD Hard to have a compressor stall in an aircraft with no jet engines, but whatever. What we had here was two kids not maintaining proper sterile cockpit, not flying the aircraft properly, and then panicking and making exactly opposite inputs to recover. As far as not being in the cockpit well we all were, that's what this video shows. In fact, if the pilot and unbuckled and left the cockpit, the plane would most likely have recovered on its own. These pilots just made things worse.
robertl30 7 months ago
@robertl30 Excuse me, you are correct. It wasn't a compressor stall. I am sorry but I forget the name of the type of stall, but they had their reasons for doing what they did. I think the main issue was their lack of sleep, which was what was investigated the most anyways afterwards by the media.
LegendxHD 7 months ago
@robertl30 A turboprop engine (the engines the Q400 is equiped with) is actually a jet engine that is geared to a propeller. This engine can experience a compresssor stall.
jonmicetic 7 months ago
@robertl30 Wow. I wonder why they don't just hire 13 year old children like you?
JumpStartation 7 months ago
@JumpStartation Sadly, I think I'm too old at 43 to start flying for the airlines. I just fool around in my Warrior. I think these kids were both in their 20s though. Better training is the key to preventing this in the future.
robertl30 7 months ago
@robertl30 Exactly. You've just proved my point further.
JumpStartation 7 months ago
@JumpStartation Which point? I don't understand. The one where you missed guessing my age? Or the one where you show you don't know much about aviation? Or are you agreeing that more training was needed? Maybe we are on the same page. I'm not sure what you mean.
robertl30 7 months ago
@robertl30 the captain was in his mid 40's
cavok84 1 month ago
FWIW, I talked to a former Q400 pilot. At the point the aircraft stalled, the results were "baked in the cake". However, the best procedure would have been nose down and full power. The plane would have "mushed along" for a period, until airspeed would have built up to regain altitude. This is pretty much from "Stick and Rudder".
cessnafan100 1 year ago
If i remember correctly, there was a pretty severe icing situation that the pilot failed to deal with.
audi4500 1 year ago
I am not a pilot, wondering why the airplane is stalling and he is pulling back on the yoke?
Was the pilot counting on the autopilot to compensate or was there another problem?
trappy77 1 year ago
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Nice hair Asian women **lushfmlk.info**
kathejuisa 1 year ago
Seems like a clear case of pilot error by not paying attention to airspeed after lowering the gear and then a bad stall recovery by pulling on the yoke. BUT... I think that the AP kicked off automatically at the stall and the pusher did not engage. I think that if the yoke had been pushed just a little when the AP turn off the plane would have survived. Also the shaker should have kicked in much earlier when the plane was heading toward the stall speed, to warn the pilots.
jmfrademartin 1 year ago
Should have added power when the gear went down?
zapazoid 1 year ago
I understand that the pilot did the wrong thing upon going into a stall, but does anyone know what caused the plane to lose speed to begin with? That's what I can never find out.
nj8ive 1 year ago
@nj8ive Because they didn't increase power after extending the gear. The gear creates a lot of drag that slows the plane down. If they were in a descent it might not have caused a stall but the autopilot was trying to maintain altitude.
Gabrielg787 1 year ago 5
@Gabrielg787 That's incorrect actually, they were in descent. Look at the two indicators above the yoke: shaker and pusher (the pusher actually brings the yoke forward). That was the autopilot's attempt to break the stall, but the pilot pulled back anyway. The NTSB blamed this one on the pilot. Really a tragic case.
newcombstrohschein 11 months ago
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Gabrielg787 11 months ago
@newcombstrohschein You are partly correct. That is what happened AFTER the plane entered a stall condition. Before that, the autopilot was trying to hold altitude as the gear slowed down the plane. That is why the nose came up. They were not descending. You can see by the vertical speed indicator that they were maintaining altitude until the stall, plus the pilot says "localizer alive" just a few seconds before the stall. The glideslope was not yet active, only the localizer.
Gabrielg787 11 months ago
@nj8ive
Ice.
josephforte 1 year ago
the captain kept pulling back on the yoke even though he got a stick shaker??? yes, they were at a low altitude, but i don't think the aircraft wouldn't have made such a violent roll if the nose was brought back down.
illinoisboyinchi 1 year ago
my first experiance in cadets was to apply foward pressure to keep nose level, its something I don't even think about anymore. How do you loose track of airspeed like that on approach being so low ?
jdmdecal 1 year ago
Sully had more altitude, better weather, greater visibility, and a more advanced aircraft. Let's keep some perspective: mistakes were made that cost lives, including the crew. It is easy to watch youtbe videos and make judgments about scenarios that the viewer has never experienced.
cessnafan100 1 year ago
@cessnafan100
Sully would have never allowed the a/c to get into that situation in the first place.
I agree with you though. YouTube speculation pisses me off. Almost as much as ppl posting FSX videos on here. I (or the rest of the aviation community), don't give a flying f**k about their simulator videos. How about I start posting animated videos of myself answering phones all day?
josephforte 1 year ago
@cessnafan100 a turboprop is safer than a jet. And Sulley didn't have any engine power.
dargay 1 year ago
Crashed about 10mi from my house...horrible feeling.
TTDMFfreaknew 1 year ago
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ebutemetube 1 year ago
I'm not a pilot, but what is note worthy is how little time he has from the stick shaker warning to the impact with the ground....
xpat73 1 year ago
@xpat73 The stick shaker is nothing more than an artificial buffet which is what you would experince in a much smaller aircraft.A larger aircraft with a high wing loading such as this aircraft needs a stick shaker to warn the pilot he is getting close to a stall.In this paticular case the aircraft was loaded up with ice and once the pilot chose gesr down and first setting of flaps it stalled do to the load of ice.Stick shackers dont sense altitude,only lack of airspeed.
ThePolyweave 1 year ago
@xpat73 it was 26 seconds from the first sign of trouble to impact. That is what amazes me how fast things went bad.
jscott1000 8 months ago
I hate to say it....but when you pay peanuts you get monkeys.
xpat73 1 year ago 2
the pilots in this plane crash went to ATP?
Frogboss6 1 year ago
I don't get it - why the first reaction on the shaker was to pull up?
DelfinoDelphis 1 year ago
@DelfinoDelphis It's a natural tendency to want to pull up during a stall as your wanting the plane to fly. During the stall the "Stick Pusher" was activated by the system in order to recover, however the pilot overrode that as well likely because of the low altitude involved.
I not sure the pilot even realized the pending stall was approaching; he went from 185knts to 130 within 27seconds.
shakenama 1 year ago
Sigh....RIP to all the Victims. I wish the Captain who landed the plane in the Hudson was flying this plane, they might all be alive today.
Scampergirl 1 year ago
what game is this?
sy375289 1 year ago
I dont like this a/c design anyway its look like too short for the wing the flight envelope must be to short, until I know this one has a compartment for the all cargo only i the rear side, I not said that it was out of range but this plane thing can be unstable at certain conditions.
80dnd 1 year ago
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stefanobeross 1 year ago
you get what you pay for, this crew combined didnt make over 50k a year. But the public wants cheap tickets.
colgan is just another shitty airline with shitty management. they will kill a few hundred more people before our crack F double A gets in on it.
beergut111 1 year ago 2