Reform or Revolt: The Mass of Pope Paul VI

[monkeyman3895]

Wow. I never realized just how Protestant like most Novus Ordo Masses were until putting the two against each other. Notice how I say MOST. The Novus Ordo Mass can be done in a matter that is just as Catholic and reverent as the Tridentine Mass (Just look at a Papal Mass). Not saying that either one is invalid or anything, but one is definitely more solemn and Catholic looking.

[HetmanWojtek]

33:00

"Wycliff was the first to translate the Bible into English"

Nope. There were plenty of English translations of the Bible before Wycliff. Some dating back to the 7th century with Caedmon, monk of Whitby.

Thomas More: 'The whole Bible long before Wycliff's day was by virtuous and well-learned men translated into the English tongue, and by good and godly people with devotion and soberness well and reverently read' (Dialogues III).

Youtube: Abundance of Vernacular Scriptures Before Wycliff

[Christiscatholic33ad]

It saddens me that I'm 44 years old and have never been able to attend a traditional latin mass and that our beautiful houses of God are being demolished and replaced with these hideous protestant looking churches where the tabernacles are shoved off into a corner or seperate chapel.

[MeloaEpiphany]

@Christiscatholic33ad -- Traditio.com has a link to a downloadable "Official Traditional Catholic Directory" listing several locations in the United States where Latin Masses may currently be offered.

May God help you find a traditional Latin Mass site near your area. :-)

[africa1975]

Where you from?

[baguazhang77]

I was in tears over the beauty and majesty of the Latin Mass. That is the form of Liturgical worship our Lord and Savior deserves.

The Church agrees too, because it was never disallowed.

I am not saying the vernacular mass, Vatican II, any church council or any Ex Cathedra teaching of any pope is/was wrong, but that in many cases they are wrongly interpreted, and I certainly know which mass I prefer (Latin).

I looked online and there are some being offered weekly near me. Praise God!!

[WayOfTheMaster454]

I suppose when they tried to make all churches in the post reformation world switch to the Tridentine Rite their was some pissing and moaning about it. But the ones that have studied the Mass know that all masses and liturgies are oriented toward one goal: the divinization of man.

[kiwichristian2009]

Must Christ be continually sacrificed in the mass, or was His blood sacrifice on the cross 100% sufficient to pay for all our sins for ever? In John19:30 Jesus said, "IT IS FINISHED", which in the Greek is "Tetelestai" meaning "to make an END, to ACCOMPLISH, to COMPLETE something, not mearly to end it, but to bring it to perfection or its intended goal."

[theyanna]

@kiwichristian2009 said "Must Christ be continually sacrificed in the mass, or was His blood sacrifice on the cross 100% sufficient to pay for all our sins for ever? I"

Luke 22:19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."

Who says He is sacrificed, crucified again, in the mass? Once again, my friend, you criticize what you do not understand. You are criticizing beliefs that you yourself made up =)

[cambycam]

Savonarola was not a heretic, thougn-NO heresy ever discovered..torture is not admissible...

[LiturgicalChants]

Bugnini's purpose was to make the Mass open to Protestant interpretaition as a sacrifice of praise & thanksgiving only, which is why the Object of the Sacrifice is not made explicit. If you have Divine Victim, you have a real Sacrifice. so Bugnini has no divine Victim and no mention of propitiation. Bugnini is not simply echoing simpler Offertories of the past but responding to a standard.

[LiturgicalChants]

The New Roman Offertory, which has only some resembles to ancient usages (achræologism) has no history of liturgical use departs from a 600 year standard. It departs from that standard to suggest things which point to the agenda of Bugnini and his Consilium, such as a Teilhardian dependence of God on man's activity (suggestion of matter of Sacrament as "work of human hands").

[LiturgicalChants]

If both masses were said in english and included the music, you would notice more difference. Not really a very good comparison, but better than nothing.

[pipeup1]

It was all about ego and careerism among the clergy. To be seen to be modern and build a new modern style church was to be progressive and to advance ones career. The old priests who stuck to their latin and berettas were sidelined. It was terrible! It was a complete change of attitude. When the old priest was saying his brevery at 7am, the new priest was coming home from the disco, thats what V2 did!!

[Jitpring]

Friends, read:

Pope Paul's New Mass, by Michael Davies

[pfpnewhope]

Truth--- what makes you so sure that your truth is THE truth? Terms like "Valid" or "Licit" are human ways of discrediting those who will not bow to our point of view. Sometimes I think church people think that God was their idea in the first place. It's very annoying.

[pfpnewhope]

The liturgy is, after all about Jesus's saving action and not that of any form imposed in later centuries. There was probably no tabernacle, crucifix, or stations of the cross in that room and it was probably the purest expression of what God intended. Why not be concerned about that?

[AtomicMonster454]

@pfpnewhope --Truth. The Mass is valid so long as an ordained preist speaks the words "this is my body".

[Jitpring]

Wrong. A valid mass requires: validly ordained priest + correct matter + correct form + correct intent. You mention only one element, form, and even your statement of this is fatally incomplete.

[pfpnewhope]

The belief that God does not change may or may not be true. In either case it cannot be proven so far as I am aware. In any event, that statement is often used to support reverting to liturgical forms from our childhood as if the liturgy never changed but that has never been true if you study the history of liturgy. It constantly changes. So if you wish to freeze the liturgy at some point, why not go back to what Jesus did at the last supper instead of some council in the 1500's?

[cathcom]

While I don't find it difficult to accept the belief that God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow - I believe as readily that change in just about everything else is a reality. However, not all change is good. Would you not agree? Do the benefits of the liturgical revolution outweigh the negative effects? Is a return to a mode of worship, one which was embraced by innumerable saints, undesirable?

[pfpnewhope]

Not all change is good, but who defines good? Most things that are good for me I would prefer not to do and I assume that I am not unique. As for negative effects, who defines those and on what criteria? The gospel is the core of what innumerable saints embraced and the liturgy changed constantly until the Council of Trent, even after that time to a more subtle degee.

[cathcom]

If the post-conciliar vernacular liturgy is "good" for you, go for it. As a father of 8 children I can say definitively that it was not "good" for our family. So there you have it: one man's good is another's "not-so-good." I don't think it is particularly accurate to say that "the liturgy changed constantly" until the Council of Trent in the same context that the Novus Ordo has changed the liturgy. The former reflects organic development, the latter a fabricated, man-made effort (Cld. Ratz wds)

[pfpnewhope]

As you wish.

[SAYYOURROSARY]

@pfpnewhope Why would a perfect being "change" and "change to what ?" I lloked at this clows "channel"  and he is a paid shill . Go look at his "katholick" channel . I would say it IS up to par for modernists .

[pfpnewhope]

Change is difficult and scary. But consider that the only things that do not change are dead things.

[RickK1]

It's not quite correct to say that the only things that do not change are dead things. God is very much alive, and He does not change. Dead things, on the other hand, change a great deal: they rot and decay.

[mainsqueeze1977]

Of course the claim that the first was as celebrated for the last 1500 years is wrong!

[helenw100]

Marie-Julie Jahenny"On November 27, 1902 and May 10, 1904, Our Lord and Our Lady announced the conspiracy to invent the "New Mass":

«I give you a WARNING. The disciples who are not of My Gospel are now working hard to remake according to their ideas and under the influence of the enemy of souls a MASS that contains words that are ODIOUS in My sight."

1960 Fatima secret was never revealed against Heavens instruction. Apostacy is here. Starting at Vatican II.

[Ticklop]

I feel disturbed by the architectural & artistic difference post Vatican II... what the heck is wrong with bishops, sanctioning construction of these poor buildings!!

Not that Modern art is bad...some new imagery may be used, so long as the LEX ORANDI-LEX CREDENDI thingy is in place.

However, associating all the changes with past heresies is foolish.

I love Latin, but the false elitism and the improper "sanctity" that becomes attached to it is wrong. there's no such thing as a "holy language".

[mainsqueeze1977]

I agree, only that the bad architecture has no relation to Vatican II contentwise nor was all bad architecture build after the council - some examples are even explained in this video. The 1950-60s were the heyday of bad architecture.

[PapaPiusIX]

Our Lady of Akita approved by the church

The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, bishops against other bishops. The priests who venerate me will be scorned and opposed by their confreres (other priests). Churches and altars will be sacked.

[Canisius19]

At 8 years old a child has reached the age of reason, they know what is right and wrong at that age and infer what repentance is

[Chelonakkos1]

The second Mass is not exacly NOVUS ORDO MISSAE, because priest don't take all rubrics from MISSALE PAULUS VI. this missale have many things who i didn't seen in this video. I love Tridentine Mass and liturgical roman tradition

[nacho1560]

I had a catholic childhood and I learned absolutely nothing about Jesus or the Bible.

At school we were forced to attend chapel though nobody had a clue what the priest was saying as it was all in Latin. Same with the hymns we sang.

We praised Mary so much that I actually believed she was God. A visit to Lourdes with the school did nothing to dispel this belief.

One good thing was you could steal, then go to confession, have your sin forgiven, then go back and steal again.

[SwordsmanOfFaith]

Hello there, I noticed your comment.

I do feel sorry that you learned nothing about the faith because the teachers you had probably knew nothing themselves.

But the thing that strikes me is that you think that someone could steal, go to confession and do it again. I'd like to inform you that this is false. For a valid absolution of the penitent's sins during confession the penitent must be sincerely sorry for his sins and the firm resolution to never commit these sins again.

- Pax Christi.

[nacho1560]

As a child we were taught sins were forgiven by a priest.

The Bible teaches only God can forgive sins. I learned that later.

I believed I could commit any sin and be forgiven. Most catholic kids also believed that.

Never at chapel did I see any adults carry bibles. Hymn books, missals, cathechisms. But no bibles, at services or at school.

I was surprised as an adult to learn the Bible was the true word of God and not the books of the RC Church.

[SwordsmanOfFaith]

Ofcourse, sins in confession are forgiven by the priest acting on behalf of God because they have the authority to do so as written down in John 20:21-23. This is what the church teaches.

Ofcourse you could commit any sin and be forgiven, God can forgive every sin - but after that, never commit that sin again!

The Bible IS the true word of God! The church has never taught anything else! The Catholic church MADE the new testament!

- Pax.

[nacho1560]

Read the quote from John properly. Jesus was giving his DISCIPLES the authority to forgive sins. Not any future religious order.

There was no catholic church in the time of Jesus, so I find your last comment a bit strange.

Even Peter, who you claim founded your church was a father and husband, none of the celibacy followed today. The RC religion was artificially produced. Words from the bible were twisted to support it.

[SwordsmanOfFaith]

Well ofcourse he gave his disciples the authority! The priests and bishops are the successors of these disciples because of apostolic succession given at ordination.

And Christ founded the Catholic church, see Matthew 16:18 for that!

And Peter indeed was married, there have been 34 married popes in church history - celibacy is not a doctrine, but rather a disciple, If the church wanted we could have married Priests (which do exist), Bishops and stuff.

- Pax.

[Canisius19]

Gee Nacho what did Christ say, "if you forgive men's sins they are forgiven, if you them bound they are held bound". Sin can only be forgiven when there is reptenance and contrition. No man forgives sin only Christ does, Christ works through the priest. THe missals are taken directly from the Bible, obviiously you were not paying attention. Did you know that the King James Bible the Protestant version was changed by man.. ITS NOT THE WORD OF GOD THEN IS IT

[nacho1560]

I know what you're saying, Canisius, but how do you expect an 8 year old child to go to confession and understand true repentance?

I see nothing in the Bible to suggest today's Catholic priests are empowered to forgive sins. Sure, there are many good men among priests, but there are also many evil as we all know with paedophilia and other sins among them.

A priest to me is no different from any other man, I don't accept they're chosen by Christ or God.

[nacho1560]

I doubt if any versions of the Bible have not been tarnished by the hand of man.

What bible do Catholics use? Not being awkward, I really don't know.

I did listen at school but it was never explained. Mass and hymns were in Latin, so I didn't have a clue what was going on.

Below I gave an honest account of my childhood experiences and got abuse for it. Not exactly Christlike behaviour.

When I asked why catholics worshipped Mary on another site they went ballistic.

[RickK1]

>What bible do Catholics use?

I myself use the Douay-Rheims, Challoner, Latin Vulgate, Greek New Testament, Greek Septuagint, & Hebrew Old Testament.

Versions are often "tarnished by the hand of man" sometimes deliberately but more often by copyist errors before the invention of the printing press. I studied classical languages so I'd be able to read all those versions.

Catholics use all those versions of the Bible, and more. The only versions that aren't appropriate are Protestant versions.

[justanothersheeple]

@RickK1 why don't you check out john nelson darby, i assume you're dispensationalist

[pcramer1960]

One problem. This video states that the Mass had gone unchanged for 1500 years. This is inaccurate. The "old Mass" is about 400 years old. Many of the changes (Mass in the vernacular; priest facing the people) were being introduced 50 to 75 years before Vatican II. Lastly, Jesus did not have his back to his apostles as they gathered around the "Last Supper," and it's unlikely that it was in Latin.

[livesteam]

I know what I prefer ... Bring back the "Tridentine Mass" ... Deo Gratias !

[2812608584]

God keep all of us is his glory and the virgin too !!!!!!!!!!!

[JKB449]

Tridentin Mass is the way to Our Lady and to Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Long Live Tridentin Mass

[Hkepfer]

It is impossible to be more Catholic than the Pope. The beauty of dogma is certainty and authority; there are two forms of the Roman Rite but there are other Rites w/in the Roman Catholic church. This video while well made and of good tone but it neglects that if Catholic one is papal. Lastly Christianity is revelatory hence the need for a strong central authority. I hope this makes sense.

[mainsqueeze1977]

I am not yet through watching and don't know what's coming up but at 20 min. I can say that the video and the presenter make an earnest and fair impression to me - quite different to some rad-trad material on youtube.

[huskerfreak22]

I also prefer the Extraordinary form to Novus Ordo form. However, Pope Paul VI's mass was and is legitimate, being that he was the pope sitting on the chair of Peter and has the power of infallibility.

[mylittleundergroundx]

The Pope does hold the right to invoke God the Holy Ghost in making an infallible statement -- not necessarily best or perfect or inspired but simply free from error.

Infallible statements regard dogma. The only two statements declared infallible in the 20th century are the Assumption and Queenship of the BVM. The NO is not a dogmatic statement, it is a form of Mass. Its promulgation doesn't mean its infallibility.

[starchyp92]

I prefer the Latin Mass to the ordinary form, but the priest who said the OF did a pretty good job as far as saying the black, doing the red and following the rubrics. With a few additions the mass could be better. He could use the Benedictine arrangement( 6 candlesticks, crucifix in center of altar) and maybe use Latin for some of the ordinary(Dominus Vobiscum, Pater, Agnus, the Roman Canon in Latin etc.) Ultimately, it would be much better if he went Ad Orientem using the High Altar.

[fuxu123]

The priest speeds through the latin. Why dosen't he say it slower, more meaningfully

[starchyp92]

Maybe he's in a hurry, lol. At least they have a Latin Mass. Where I live, its pretty far away. I'll take a hasty Latin mass over no latin mass any day.

[fuxu123]

You don't know if he's in a hurry. If he is then I suppose it may be alright if speeds through if I were him maybe I would. If he is not in a hurry and this is the norm, that just goes to show that there was need for reform. Why have beautiful prayes if only to speed through them in a language no one understands without the help of a 2000 page book in there pocket?

[starchyp92]

Better hastily said prayers than a hastily manufactured mass.

[fuxu123]

The Mass of Pope Paul VI was not hastily manufactured as you believe. The Mass of Pope Paul VI is a restoration of the liturgy which unites the laity and the priest and does not exclude the laity from the various parts of the Mass as it was before the Middle Ages. The Mass of the Council of Trent is a venerable and sacred rite, however that does not meen it is without need for reform or revision. The Mass of Pope Paul VI was a necessary reform for the benefit all the faithful.

[starchyp92]

Need I quote this:

"What happened after the Council was altogether different: instead of a liturgy fruit of continuous development, a fabricated liturgy was put in its place. A living growing process was abandoned and the fabrication began. There was no further wish to continue the organic evolution and maturation of the living being throughout the centuries and they were replaced -- as if in a technical production -- by a fabrication, a banal product of the moment."

Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

[starchyp92]

You're just citing textbook arguments which have been proven wrong time and time again! The mass never excluded the laity, but if you keep buying into this lie, fine. There was always active participation by the faithful, through their hearts and minds. But, I guess, some people have to be saying something or act as ushers, lectors, etc. to participate. When one prays the mass in silence, one participates. This is what Pius XII meant. Read the "Ottaviani Intervention." God Bless, Phillip.

[gonzagalaw]

How could it have possibly been necessary to intrude everywhere in the sacred liturgy and tamper substantially with the rubrics, form, language, and content? What you, fuxu123, have said is a cardboard cut-out response that has nothing backing it up and falls apart when you consider that the Novus Ordo is essentially equivalent to an Anglican or Lutheran supper/worship service, neither of which are anything but a degradation to the true Mass instituted in the earliest times of the Church.

[gonzagalaw]

FYI, the Ordinary of the Mass for the Latin rite is less than 60 pages (referring to a pre-VCII St. Joseph's Missal) & includes both the original Latin & English translation. The whole St. Joseph's Missal totals in at around 1300 pages which includes the Proper for each and every feast as well as a treasury of prayers, liturgical calender, a guide to the Mass & liturgy etc.

Latin is a beautiful language, hence the multitude of Latin hymns, from which the English language derives a great deal.

[richardquartimain]

So thats the reason why i sometimes feel insecure when attending the mass. .i felt theres something wrong W/ this mass.....Novus Ordo Misae....what an amazing heresy! Thanks to Paul VI,Giovanni Batista Montini....

[Por0]

Oh my gosh how boring! - Eastern Orthodox

[clovislobo]

I'm pretty sure you also like mormons, jim jonists, jeovah's witnesses and the other junk

[ixtoc999]

Go and kiss the arse of an elephant.

[ixtoc999]

SMOKE THEM AND yourself, freaking weirdo.

[StPeterTheRock]

If you were to look at the Novus Ordo Missal and the Tridentine Missal. You'll find both are not the same, the prayers & worship are entirely difffrent, not interpeted in the same translation. The Novus Ordo Mass has changed entirely into a new worship, new prayers, so what you're getting is not even close to the Tridetine Mass anymore. So what you're getting is an entirely diffrent worship, its been entirely revised, changed, omitted. This is so sad, I hope many will see the Light.

[sunmoonskystar]

Thanks for saying in the video that those people are dishonest who compare the two Masses using Fr. Bozo and clown Masses as the paradigm for the Novus Ordo. Those who do so are indeed dishonest and they do damage to the cause of the traditional Latin Mass.

Paul Moeller

[Pontmain7]

The New Mass no longer constitutes a vertical worship between God and man, rather a horizontal worship between man and man. This is Protestant.The New Mass blurs what ought to be a sharp difference between the HIERARCHIC Priesthood and the common priesthood of the people {as does Protestantism}.

[fridayer]

That Latin is atrocious.

[DrPohteeyeh]

It's possible to see. The Church's emphasis has always been on the reception of the Word. But even with that said, not everything was in Latin. The Homilies certianly weren't. But yay for the Tridentine Mass.

[mainsqueeze1977]

The lectures were, however!

[paxcoder]

Novus ordo misae? Now that's creepy.

[lfRMFC]

A good video. Very informative. Thanks for posting.

[AndreasAntoniusMaria]

Paul VI Honest Man, just no good director of the Church. He was a weak man.

[Oblationem]

A most excellent video, bravo, well done...

[Kplz]

The switch from Greek to Latin that happened in the 4th century was not a vernacularization. The Latin used in the Missal texts then was in a higher form of Latin --not vulgar Latin.

[mainsqueeze1977]

Now that's silly, Kplz. No switch happened in the 4th century, the switch to latin happened in the 2nd century. The latin was not vulgar but is was the vernecular, just as English or German or French is not vulgar.

[roystonanthonyjerome]

i actually did a search on the papal bull mentioned in the video by pope alexander vii, titled ad aures nostras, but i couldn't find any papal bull under that title.

the closest i may find is the fact that pope alexander vii forbade the translation of the missal into french in 1661.

if you have the link or primary source to it, please kindly send it to me. greatly appreciated. (:

[cathcom]

Our source: The Mass of the Future; Gerald Ellard, SJ. pp. 127-127. It was in reference to the French missal of the Jansenists specifically. The last prohibitions (1851 and June 6, 1857) forbid the Ordinary of the Mass to be translated into the vernacular - no language specified.

[livre333]

Voce ta confundindo... This mess is dogmatisade by concilio of Trento. is Not Jansenist

[RickK1]

That wrong idea that the Church didn't always desire Bibles to be translated into the vernacular seems to have come from Protestants. The Vulgate was a translation of the Bible into the vernacular!

The Roman Rite in the beginning was in the vernacular: Latin. There are reasons for keeping Latin, but avoiding the vernacular isn't one of them.

It's hard to believe the Church didn't want the Mass translated or allow Missals. I'd have to see it from a primary source (not secondary) to believe that.

[RickK1]

Those 1967 architectural changes in the church are easily understood when you consider that the Mass at that time was not the traditional Latin Mass! It was the awful 1965 Missal. It was not a matter of foreseeing the changes that would come about in 1969 in the Novus Ordo; it was not ahead of its time. Enough changes had already taken place in 1965 to make such grotesque changes in churches before 1969 not at all surprising.

[mainsqueeze1977]

So, RickK1, you are not holier than thou but holier than holier than thou. Let's go back to the mass of Saint Pius I and drop silly innovations like mass in latin.

[RickK1]

It's a good idea to read over what you've written before sending it, to make sure what you've written makes sense. "Holier than holier than thou"?

[mainsqueeze1977]

Sure - and "holier than holier then thou" is exactly what I meant! Think about what it could mean!

[jamilmario]

muy educativo este video . ojala que al papa benedicto xvi , no se le ocurra regresar al rito en latin .tiraria por la borda 40 años del concilio vaticano II .

[DanVilAl]

Si ese tirar por la borda implica deshacerse de misas poco respetuosas, sacerdordotes que suben a l altar con las manos a los lados, canciones dignas de jardín de infantes, con escaso mérito artistico (letras repetitivas y sin contenido teológico), guitarras, baterías, bombos y mandolinas, bienvenido sea!!!

[livre333]

ahaha ... el concílio no eres dogmatico... entonces no eres válido como concilio.. tudo o que en nel concilio non seja igual a la antiga doutrina eres heresia. La missa de Pablo XVI no eres legal.

[statementz]

Wycliffe was not the first to translate the Bible into English.

[Catholicguy]

Very good video. Unbiased and educational.

[tadsgirl]

Please post more of this.

[cathcom]

Greetings: we posted the second part of the video just a bit ago. Thanks for taking a look.

[tadsgirl]

Thanks! I see the part II now on the sidebar now. Ooops.