Well very interesting! To communicate effectively and achieve all your goals, you should learn grammar! Now I am not saying that you should use conventional methods or memorization, you should use Michel Thomas you memorize the grammar with out trying while having fun! And I am twelve year old German and French learner from America! Grammar is the building blocks for which we should learn! But you know to each their own! But I do not agree with Laim. But yah Michel Thomas! God Bless You GoodLuck
I remember Krashen wrote in one of his books that you do better if you focus on the meaning of what you hear and read than if you focus on the form. I like grammar, but to me, the grammar is only a minor tool and at school it's unfortunately the purpose.
another frustrating point of grammar oriented language classes, are teachers who ask students grammar questions. and expect them to reproduce grammar explanations. 1. who remembers them anyway, 2. who does even understand the meaning of those terms and finally why should students be able to answer this, they want to learn the language , to be able to use grammar correctly. to me the importance of grammar is to explain the language (or how a language works) not vice versa.
i understand where he's coming from, i dont think i could learn a language either without studying grammar thoroughly, but you have to be really stupid not to realize most people don't learn that way. all you'd need to do is sit in a language class and notice how you're the only one making any sense of the grammar rules and progressing in the language at all. dogmaticness fails.
Steve, how did you learn so many languages? Would it be possible for you to describe your method in simple terms by writing specific steps like 1, 2, 3. Or if you have a blog where you already described your steps, please let me know. Thanks!
I absolutely agree with you, Steve. As an autodidact language learner currently studying Japanese, I've spent very little time going over grammar rules, because the sheer amount of input (specifically, with SRSing sentences and kanji via Anki) helps my unconscious mind piece it all together on its own.
Most grammar rules of the language have flown well over my head, previously, until I'd come back to a grammar book weeks later and realized that through input, I'd already learned most of it!
I disagree. We are not mechanical, how many times do you hear speakers say..''Mmm, doesnt feel right'' A solid foundation is neccacary but grammar should be absorbed.
My language learning experience for Spanish was and still is a natural learning process. When my vocabulary increased and was able to string a sentence or phrase together, the grammar issue for me was based on a feeling that the word(s) form I wanted to use simply wasn't right. I didn't catalogue a list of grammar rules on that word(s), it simply didn't feel right. I then either said the word incorrectly or asked how to say it correctly. No big deal and no dreaded grammar rules.
If we could get people to record these languages we could have audio and text at LingQ. In fact I hope to be able to offer at least Latin this way. I am not sure if there are people who can read Ancient Greek out loud.
I find spaced repetition systems such as Anki particularly conducive to learning Chinese characters. I'm learning them this way myself, and find I need to put in only a little effort to make sure they stick. Paradoxically, it's probably the laziest-seeming way to learn them, and yet has been the most effective.
OK, OK I know all this software stuff isn't *necessary* for finishing a one time task (memorizing the characters) and I'm just being weird. Was wondering in general what Steve and those of you who learned all (requred) 漢字 think in general. :D
yahags, it's too bad you don't enjoy them. They're not for everyone. I'm still learning hanzi, but I'm finding that they stick with minimal effort (I don't have to rewrite characters a million times) just by doing my reviews on Anki each day and doing whatever it throws at me. The SRS will handle the rest.
As for GUI, that's not really that important to me. I find Anki very user-friendly, but it's the task it performs that's most important to me.
qzchris you don't have to convince me to srs, it's what used to learn the first 1000.
wuerges, there's no documentation for libanki, the code is bloated, it's extremely hard to figure out what does what from comments and the dev team is arrogant and unhelpful. I'd rather write my own version - the sm2 algorithm is pretty simple... actually that's what I'm doing for the last year LOL .___.
I like inputting 漢字 with the mouse when I'm reviewing and normally use the ＩＭＥパッド for this purpose. In anki and mnemosyne there's no input field in focus during review so it won't open, same with "reviewing the kanji" page. One option is to change focus from app every time and draw in paint but it's a pain. "Why would you wanna DRAW on a computer it's too quick and efficient, write on paper like all of us serious academics and scholars do! Computers are evil!" <-- no thanks
Great response. I'm not sure who Liam is or exactly what he believes, but I have never heard of a single case of someone becoming fluent in a second language using the method he apparently advocates. An expert on the mechanics and minutiae of that language, sure- but not fluent.
By analogy, you could learn all there is to know about auto mechanics- the names of all the parts, how the engine works, etc.- and still not know how to drive. And vice-versa, of course.
Well very interesting! To communicate effectively and achieve all your goals, you should learn grammar! Now I am not saying that you should use conventional methods or memorization, you should use Michel Thomas you memorize the grammar with out trying while having fun! And I am twelve year old German and French learner from America! Grammar is the building blocks for which we should learn! But you know to each their own! But I do not agree with Laim. But yah Michel Thomas! God Bless You GoodLuck
GriffenJC 1 month ago
I remember Krashen wrote in one of his books that you do better if you focus on the meaning of what you hear and read than if you focus on the form. I like grammar, but to me, the grammar is only a minor tool and at school it's unfortunately the purpose.
JimCooper89 11 months ago
another frustrating point of grammar oriented language classes, are teachers who ask students grammar questions. and expect them to reproduce grammar explanations. 1. who remembers them anyway, 2. who does even understand the meaning of those terms and finally why should students be able to answer this, they want to learn the language , to be able to use grammar correctly. to me the importance of grammar is to explain the language (or how a language works) not vice versa.
sutekinabushi13 1 year ago
i understand where he's coming from, i dont think i could learn a language either without studying grammar thoroughly, but you have to be really stupid not to realize most people don't learn that way. all you'd need to do is sit in a language class and notice how you're the only one making any sense of the grammar rules and progressing in the language at all. dogmaticness fails.
xnightxamex 2 years ago
Steve, how did you learn so many languages? Would it be possible for you to describe your method in simple terms by writing specific steps like 1, 2, 3. Or if you have a blog where you already described your steps, please let me know. Thanks!
peacefulnature2007 3 years ago
I absolutely agree with you, Steve. As an autodidact language learner currently studying Japanese, I've spent very little time going over grammar rules, because the sheer amount of input (specifically, with SRSing sentences and kanji via Anki) helps my unconscious mind piece it all together on its own.
Most grammar rules of the language have flown well over my head, previously, until I'd come back to a grammar book weeks later and realized that through input, I'd already learned most of it!
nachomancer 3 years ago
Happy new year,Steve!!!!!!!!!!!
zimmermann10 3 years ago
I disagree. We are not mechanical, how many times do you hear speakers say..''Mmm, doesnt feel right'' A solid foundation is neccacary but grammar should be absorbed.
red213 3 years ago
My language learning experience for Spanish was and still is a natural learning process. When my vocabulary increased and was able to string a sentence or phrase together, the grammar issue for me was based on a feeling that the word(s) form I wanted to use simply wasn't right. I didn't catalogue a list of grammar rules on that word(s), it simply didn't feel right. I then either said the word incorrectly or asked how to say it correctly. No big deal and no dreaded grammar rules.
robolobo360 3 years ago
crussher,
If we could get people to record these languages we could have audio and text at LingQ. In fact I hope to be able to offer at least Latin this way. I am not sure if there are people who can read Ancient Greek out loud.
lingosteve 3 years ago
Any thoughts, re the email I sent you, on a better way to learn Ancient Greek and Latin, the teaching of which is grammatically based.
Really enjoy your videos.
crussher2 3 years ago
Tell us about 漢字 and 汉字
yahags 3 years ago
I will comment on this in the new year. Flash cards are a good idea for these. But more later.
lingosteve 3 years ago
Awesome!
yahags 3 years ago
I find spaced repetition systems such as Anki particularly conducive to learning Chinese characters. I'm learning them this way myself, and find I need to put in only a little effort to make sure they stick. Paradoxically, it's probably the laziest-seeming way to learn them, and yet has been the most effective.
qzchris 3 years ago
qzchris, I tried anki, mnemosyne, supermemo and a few other progs like sugarmemo. Didn't really enjoy any of them so far.
I like playing with programs and data, doing all sorts of fun stuff with the output and input.
All those SRS programs provide me with a nice GUI interface only, which itself limits the number of interesting things I can do by one million.
But even by GUI-app standards IMHO they completely fail at being customizable and user-improvable enough. To me it's a huge no-no.
yahags 3 years ago
OK, OK I know all this software stuff isn't *necessary* for finishing a one time task (memorizing the characters) and I'm just being weird. Was wondering in general what Steve and those of you who learned all (requred) 漢字 think in general. :D
yahags 3 years ago
Hey, anki comes with libanki, so you can write your own program, using anki's SRS capabilities.
wuerges 3 years ago
yahags, it's too bad you don't enjoy them. They're not for everyone. I'm still learning hanzi, but I'm finding that they stick with minimal effort (I don't have to rewrite characters a million times) just by doing my reviews on Anki each day and doing whatever it throws at me. The SRS will handle the rest.
As for GUI, that's not really that important to me. I find Anki very user-friendly, but it's the task it performs that's most important to me.
qzchris 3 years ago
qzchris you don't have to convince me to srs, it's what used to learn the first 1000.
wuerges, there's no documentation for libanki, the code is bloated, it's extremely hard to figure out what does what from comments and the dev team is arrogant and unhelpful. I'd rather write my own version - the sm2 algorithm is pretty simple... actually that's what I'm doing for the last year LOL .___.
yahags 3 years ago
I like inputting 漢字 with the mouse when I'm reviewing and normally use the ＩＭＥパッド for this purpose. In anki and mnemosyne there's no input field in focus during review so it won't open, same with "reviewing the kanji" page. One option is to change focus from app every time and draw in paint but it's a pain. "Why would you wanna DRAW on a computer it's too quick and efficient, write on paper like all of us serious academics and scholars do! Computers are evil!" <-- no thanks
yahags 3 years ago
Great!
zimmermann10 3 years ago
Great response. I'm not sure who Liam is or exactly what he believes, but I have never heard of a single case of someone becoming fluent in a second language using the method he apparently advocates. An expert on the mechanics and minutiae of that language, sure- but not fluent.
By analogy, you could learn all there is to know about auto mechanics- the names of all the parts, how the engine works, etc.- and still not know how to drive. And vice-versa, of course.
FourthDerivative 3 years ago