no one tell the true. There was a big immigration by arabs to "Palestine" before 1948 when jewish refugees that tried to escape from europe couldn't entry by the blocking of the british authnomy. Naura like all the arabs sell a fake story to the world that they want peace, they want to stole a land!
How is she wrong? It has been since 1948. That is when Israel declared independence and has played the victim card and built an arsenal of nukes. Nobody recognized WB as Jordan and Gaza as Egypt, they were internationally TBD. Then Israel went nuts in 1967. There is no Israel. There is no Jewish state. They played the holocaust angle to get where they're at, and even that story is full of holes (6 million of holes)
What you mean to say is that "people like me" that do not view Israel as a legitimate country but as a strategic, geopolitical military base for the purpose of exploiting oil resources and establishing power by the west-- "treat Israel worse"-- Have you thought about a career in comedy? No one said anything about genocide. Just leave. The native peoples of America have the right to advocate for the expulsion of the 'whites". Palestinians have that right too.
@sunvoltage "The native peoples of America have the right to advocate for the expulsion of the 'whites"
Advocating racism. Charming. Collectivism has no place in the West. The West is a child of Israel. The children will always protect their parents in recognition that without Israel, the world's greatest civilization so far, wouldn't exist at all. Playing the victim when the facts don't support it, gets so old. Please grow up & learn the salient truth before slinging slurs at all you hate.
@constructivereconcil See zelonzelon above. All Zionists and advocates thereof must die! There is no separation. There is no "chosen people" decree sent from on high through the manifested voice of some human feel good invention of "god." Your history was written by folks who has ambitious power visions of the future. Your religion and your politics are a lie.
@sunvoltage "See zelonzelon above" I saw Finkelstein's latest crush.
"All Zionists and advocates thereof must die! There is no separation"
I'm glad you mention that, because few people believe me when I say that Islamic imperialists really think they have a chance to destroy the west. They believe in allah. What more can be said about that?
"There is no "chosen people" decree sent from on high through the manifested voice of some human feel good invention of "god."
@sunvoltage "Your history was written by folks who has ambitious power visions of the future. Your religion and your politics are a lie"
Well, sadly for you, I have probably been spending more time researching this problem than you have been alive. My positions are always researched completely before I decide. But I knew you were clueless before I even got here.
In the West, we celebrate diversity and allow all views to be published, & vetting reveals the strongest arguments.
@sunvoltage "Your history was written by folks who has ambitious power visions of the future. Your religion and your politics are a lie"
This pitiful attempt reminds me of Monty Python. "I fart in your general direction." What next? Go for the jugular vein and call me a Zionist. See how many incorrect assumptions you can make this time...
@sunvoltage "What you mean to say is that "people like me"
The only color that your text reveals is the color of lying text, whatever that is. But speaking for myself, I get sick of the lies used to support terrorism, and Islamic supremacy, and Islamic imperialism. Just as Shinto was destroyed, Islam may need the same confrontation with the truth. People would not be so frequently killing themselves if they weren't killed as apostates for thinking critically.
@TheGreaterGood80 "who told you Shinto was "destroyed"? It's still an active religion"
You're an idiot. That is not how one asks respectful questions. You tell me what I'm talking about, since you seem to think you have superior knowledge. Do you even have ANY idea what I am referring do? If yes, say so and then I will reveal my argument, if not, show more courtesy. In either case, I'll continue then.
People would not be so frequently killing themselves if Muslims didn't kill apostates for thinking critically. Because the questions are never asked, children are raised without questioning the koran, so it becomes so easy to swallow the lies about the virgins, & whose fault it is for their suffering. Suicide bombers are feted while nobody else is, so whose culture is responsible for this? The West w Israel? No. See Pierre Rehov "Suicide Bombers" + his whole collection really.
There is something chilling about ignoring the presence of Israeli society. If someone blew up a bus in Phoenix AZ because it was built on stolen apache land, they would be making the same point. History moves forward, regardless of personal injustice, and you can't ignore the lives of millions for the sake of a historical vendetta.
@LearnedHand2008 So, what you are saying mathematically is: If the Palestinians were to reestablish themselves and Israel were no longer to be and the Zionist jews were scattered and disbursed without a country that 40 years later they should get over it because "you can't ignore the lives of millions for the sake of a vendetta"-- right? The question is: What is SO special about Israel? Why is Israel treated as more special than any other country?
Yes, I would agree, but that's not the case is it? There are 7 million more people there now than there were in 1948, and a developed country, where before there was basically a rural society. Your question is hilarious, as it seems to suggest that with respect to "any other country", it would be normal to advocate for expulsion and genocide. Israel isn't treated special, its treated a lot worse than any normal country, by people like you. Don't ask dishonest questions
@sunvoltage "So, what you are saying mathematically is: If the Palestinians were to reestablish themselves and Israel were no longer to be and the Zionist jews were scattered and disbursed without a country that 40 years later they should get over it because "you can't ignore the lives of millions for the sake of a vendetta"-- right?"
Probably not, but it's a stupid question. We are talking about real facts today, not your insane endless lies.
@sunvoltage "The question is: What is SO special about Israel?"
It's the only liberal democracy in the region, it's a commitment made to support them in recognition that if we had been a civil society, we would have supported them earlier in the 19th century, or 1917 at the very latest. We fucked up and half of them died. Never again. Hebron Massacre, Arab appeasement, etc. Finally, Truman defines the issue for the West, & finally it is recognized. Never again.
@sunvoltage "Why is Israel treated as more special than any other country?"
It is also true that because Israel is attacked so consistently, it is correctly identified that just like Jerusalem was attacked because the Christians cared so much about it, so Israel is attacked by Muslims, inventing this fiction of "3rd holiest" lie, & all the other lies of Islam, where the Koran is supposed to be taken as correct even when forensic science proves it impossible, so we can't tolerate such lies.
the juwish ckaims in palestine have nothing to do with historical facts or clear events,they depend in most of thier claims on thier hand made turat that horrible rassist brutal war book as they also creat other evil books to control the world like the book of magic and evil Kabala and the talmoud and the sinhardin and alll of it writen from master evil mind give the juwish through the history the right to massacre the other humans and steal thier lands just becz they are the choosen childrens
Yes, Yes. I'm aware you feel that way. And if we all got exterminated, you'd say we got what we deserved also. That's why only a fool would give a damn about what you and others like you think.
You continue to protest. Shout all you want about "occupation," and "oppression." We will do what we gotta do to survive.
"Better an Israel that's hated by the world than an Auschwitz that's loves by it." -- Rabbi Meir Kahane.
I agree on both counts... The world does listen to Arabs even as they complain that the suicide belt-wearing terrorist was handled too aggressively. Yet they turn a deaf ear to the Jewish would-be victim. But the good news is that with help from the Creator, our spirit has overcome - and will continue to overcome - the Arab sword.
But I wouldn't refer to it as the "Palestine" Conflict. "Palestine" is a figment of the Roman imagination, inherited by the British, and reinvented by the Arabs.
Your right, Palestine is a Roman name but does the fact that its a Roman given name not indicate that Romans took the land long before the 'brutal' Arabs came on the scene. It seems your using the 'brutal' Arabs as a scapegoat, thats very unfair. I think if you watch the news, or at least the news in Englans you see both sides; the bomb belt wearing Jihadist and the ultra-right wing settlers who arent exactly much better. However there are people inbetween on both sides who want peace, do you ?
You are rattling of a bunch of nonsense. I shall try to address each of your points, one at a time...
Yes, the fact that "Palestine" is a Roman name indicates that Rome stole the land from us long before the Arabs were on the scene. Thus, the land is mine, and the Arab claim that "Palestine" belongs to the "Palestinians" is a fraud. I didn't call them "brutal" Arabs, but now that you mention it, if they wish to take my land, and kill me in the process, they're indeed brutal.
I'm not scapegoating the Arabs. I just want my land. If they would stop fighting us, I wish them well - elsewhere. This is my land.
I see how you see both sides. On the one hand you have bomb belt wearing Jihadist (your own words), and on the other extreme, we have ultra-right wing settlers (also your words). So in your opinion, Jews who commit the unspeakable crime of "settling," aren't much better (your words) than Jihadists who blow up shopping malls.
FYI, I'm one of those ultra-right wingers, and intend to "settle" (>:O) a piece of that land. Would you rather sit next to me on a bus, or one of those bomb belt wearing Jihadists?
You say people in between on both sides want peace. Where is the "in between" on the Arab side? Are they among the overwhelming majority who elected Hamas? Or are they to be found among ranks of Fatah, who has deployed even more suicide bombers than Hamas?
Or are they among the residents of Ramallah, who gathered at the Police Station in October 2000, and lynched two Israelis who were arrested for the crime of entering Ramallah?
Or are they among the crowds who flooded the streets on 9/11/01, honking their horns, and dancing, and passing out candy?
Or are they among the teachers who play videos for their students of Mickey Mouse and Bugs Bunny look-a-like characters singing about killing Jews?
Of course all of the above pales in comparison to the barbaric crime of "settling."
And yes, I want peace. Do you think any normal person doesn't? But would you surrender London for peace? I'm not willing to sacrifice my homeland, or my life for peace. The Arabs, on the other hand have demonstrated that they are willing to sacrifice their lives to end mine. They will destroy me and my homeland, or die trying. I choose the latter.
Im not even concerned with what 'wing' you are, what counts is that someone is a good person or a bad person, you, I think are really a good person. I would sit next to anyone as long as they were a decent human. Succmgmt, what happened in Ramallah was horrible along with all the other things and there no denying that they happened but there have been tredful events on both 'sides'. While that doesnt justify it, Im just trying to show its not just Arabs being bad/violent. (message cont).
I know you didnt literally say Arabs were brutal but you seem to be casting a sweeping generalisation over them as being that way. The reason I refered to "right-wing settlers" wasnt as an attack but more to show that there are extremists shall we say on both 'sides'. Im well aware that there are many peaceful people who come to settle in Israel. While the name 'Palestine' might be a fraud, you fail to realise people have been living in that land, regardless of what name it had, for years.
Succmgmt, before I start Id like to make it clear that my intension is not to argue or back people into corners or put people down etc. Im merely here to talk sense with, not against people, like yourself you seek a peaceful coexistance in Israel. Refering to me as someone who is "rattling a bunch of nonsense" is not how Id like to be spoken to, is that ok ? Peace (message cont)
IdiatBwoy: I don't believe you intend to argue me into a corner, or put me down. But you (perhaps unwittingly) insulted my people by equating suicide bombers with with settlers. What makes it more significant, is that in all likelihood, you drew the parallel in order to find a balance between the sides. Moreover, you're simply wrong. I said you rattled a bunch of nonsense, not to insult you, but rather because what you said is nonsense. I apologize if you took it the wrong way.
I can appreciate that you're not concerned with what "wing" I am. I only mentioned it, because since you referred to the "ultra-right wing settlers" as congruent to the bomb belt wearing Jihadist, I thought I should mention that I am one of those "ultra-right wing (future) settlers." You are right, what counts is whether one is a good or a bad person. I submit to you that bomb belt wearing Jihadists are not good people.
I like to believe I'm a good person (and I thank you for the kind sentiment), but your initial comment seemed to suggest (actually, you said it outright) that the ultra-right wing settlers (such as myself) "aren't exactly much better" than bomb belt wearing Jihadists. I understand full well that you referred to the "right-wing settlers" to show there are extremists both sides. And that suggests there is a parallel between a suicide bomber, and a settler. I take offense at that.
That's why I asked whom you'd rather sit next to on a bus. I was not alluding to whom you see as a better person. Being a fairly decent human being, I'm sure you'd sit next to anyone else who is likewise decent. But I doubt you'd sit next to a guy (decent or not) with a bomb around his waist. My question was to illustrate the absurdity of the parallel you drew.
You say there are extremists on both sides. I beg to differ. By and large, Jews don't wish to throw the all Arabs into the sea. We don't seek to poison Arab restaurants. We don't have snipers putting bullets in babies' heads. We don't dismember 13 year old boys. We don't blow up school busses.
We don't ambush a car, and then run up to the car and put a bullet in the head of a pregnant mother, and then into her belly, and then put a bullet into the head of her 11 year old daughter, and then put a bullet into the head of the 9 year old daughter, and then put a bullet into the head of the 7 year old daughter, and then put a bullet into the head of the 2 year old daughter.
Our "extremists" are notorious merely for their insistence on settling the land. This is more tame than the most leftist among Arabs. What would you call an Arab settler? Would he also be classified as extremist?
I understand you acknowledge there are many peaceful people who come to settle Israel. Why, then do you use the word "settlers" to describe the extremists? Does it have something to do with what part of Israel they choose to settle?
With regard to Ramallah and all the other things I mentioned: Of course, I never doubted that you agree they were horrible and dreadful events. I didn't mention them for the purpose of lamenting the horrible things that have been done to us. I was directly addressing your statement that "there are people in between on both sides who want peace." The events I described were all done by mainstream Arabs. Hence my question: Where is the in between on the Arab side?
The killers in Ramallah acted in the open, INSIDE AND IN FRONT OF THE POLICE STATION, with no fear of arrest. One of them was even photographed flaunting his blood-soaked hands (literally - not a metaphor) to the frenzied cheers of the crowd. This is the ARAB MAINSTREAM. Compare this to the extreme right among the Jews, who are distinguished by their insistence on "Settling."
Thus I repeat, and with all due respect: Your attempt to equate dreadful events on "both sides" is nonsense. Your suggestion that there are parallel extremists on both sides in nonsense. Your suggestion that there are moderates (people in between) on both sides is nonsense.
I do not fail to realize that people have been living on that land for many years. They've been living on MY LAND, and they would have been welcome to stay, had they not tried to prevent us from returning. The Jewish right to this land is absolute, and has no expiration date. No rational human being can say we lost our claim to it, because we had been forcefully and brutally prevented from exercising that claim.
That's where the fraudulent claim of "Palestine" comes in. They are trying (as seen in this video) to perpetrate the greatest fraud in modern history - the claim that there is a "Palestinian" people with a historic claim to a "Palestine," which was replaced in 1948 by Israel. The purpose of this fraud is not to merely enable them to live there. The purpose is to "reclaim" (destroy) all of Israel.
Thats half true. Again Im not here to argue so dont back me into a corner where Im going to have to start naming specific extremist organisations just to make a point. The fact remains, there are some but there also good hearted ones. If the Arab settler is a nice person who doesnt harm people then Im probably for but if their not then obviously Im not going to support them. I dont use the word settlers to describe extremits, and if I did Im sorry. (message cont).
These events are tragic and Im deeply sorry that they ever happened. However there is no need to list them like that to try and get a point accross to me as Iam already fully aware of these horrible things happening. You dont see me listing all the disgusting events that have been done againts Palestinians, it wont anyone anywhere apart from feeling more hate.
You may beg to differ but Im affraid its the truth. Im not going to start listing the horrible events that have happened to Arabs as well just to try and compete who has it worst but the fact is both people dont have it easy. Israel (as in Israeli government, not citizens) has done some pretty nasty things to. We could be here all day saying the horrible events that have happened to Israelis and Palestinians but where does that get us ?
My friend, firstly Im going to make the point once again that my intention isnt to argue with you or cause disrespect to you or your people. The reason I mentioned 'ultra-right-wing' settlers was to show their are extremists on both sides. Had I known the name of any specific groups I would mention them instead rather than box everyone in. Im sorry you take offense to that I didnt mean it in anyway against you.
To IdiatBwoy: First of all, I apologize for the delay in my response. Unfortunately, I'm much busier than I'd like to be.
Your response is a bit unclear at times. It's sometimes hard to know which of my points you're responding to. Also, the order in which your comments appear seems to shift from the way you originally typed them. A few suggestions:
When you begin a comment, click "reply" to my last comment. After that, whenever you add additional comments, put it in AS A REPLY TO YOUR LATEST COMMENT.
Also, try to specify what it is your addressing ("re xyz...").
My intention is likewise not to argue or disrespect you. But I do think we can disagree respectfully, albeit resolutely. Apology accepted (vis-à-vis the "ultra right wing settlers").
You said "You may beg to differ but I'm afraid it's the truth." I assume you're addressing my statement about "extremists on both sides." While there may be extremists on both sides, my point was (and I still maintain) that the Jewish "extremists" cannot be compared to that on the Arab side.
In fact, a Jewish extremist would, by Arab standards, be considered a peace activist. This is illustrated by the fact that no names of any specific Jewish extremist group came to mind. The Jewish extremists are not notable, because they are so few in number, and comparatively restrained in their views.
I agree this is not a competition for who has it worse. Indeed, there is suffering on both sides (as there is in every war), but that doesn't define extremism.
And yes, there may be one Jew in a million, who would commit horrible acts against Arabs, but that's one in a million, and not supported by 99.99% of the Jews. Not so with the Arabs.
The events of last week serve as a perfect example. Remember, I'm not talking about the horror of the event itself, but the mainstream reaction to it. Mahmood Abbas, the "moderate" leader of Fattah, announced on "Palestinian" radio that the killer of the 8 yeshiva students is a holy martyr.
Can you ever picture Ehud Olmert saying such a thing, if the situation was reversed? Can imagine the streets of Jerusalem filled with celebrants at the news that a Jew walked into an Arab school and executed eight Arab kids? This illustrates the difference between the two cultures. There is no comparison between our "extremists" and theirs.
Indeed, Israel may have done some pretty nasty things. But nothing more than the tragically necessary things that are done in any war.
But they have done far worse to the Jews. Keep in mind, the first responsibility of any government is the protection of its citizens from enemy hostility. Israel has failed in that regard, because of an overzealousness to avoid civilian casualties on the enemy's side.
The fact is any normal country would have carpet bombed any enemy area saturated with missile activity. If the enemy hides among the civilian population, it is they who are causing the atrocity, not the Israelis.
While we can argue forever about the ethics of Israel's military actions, it's far different with the Arabs. The "Palestinian" strategy is based entirely on killing civilians. And they explicitly want it to be as gruesome as possible. For example, when they mutilated those two boys and left them in a cave, they could just as easily have shot them dead, and been done with it.
But their strategy depends on horrific headlines. It (they hope) weakens the resolve of the Jews, and strengthens the morale of the Arabs (which itself speaks volumes).
Again, I'm not trying to tell you of yet another horror story (you're right, we can do that forever, to no benefit). I am showing you the clear difference between one man's extremist and another man's Shahid.
Sorry I was a bit overly dramatic in describing the murder of the Hatuel family. My aim was to show that even the most infamous act on the Jewish side doesn't come close to what was done there. And the Arabs applauded (celebrated) it!
It's not just that horrible things happen. The events I listed happen only on one side. The most extreme among the Jews don't do that kind of stuff. And if they did and got caught, can you imagine the Israeli government demanding their release?
No, you did not list the disgusting things that happened to the "Palestinians." Nor did you name any specific "extremist" organizations. Why not do so? If we are going to have a frank conversation, by all means, list whatever bolsters your point. I will not take offense (though I might disagree).
I have an idea as to some of the events you have in mind: Boruch Goldstein (may G-d avenge his blood); Kafr Kana; Sabra & Shatila; the family killed on the Gaza Beach. I also have an idea of some of the organizations you speak of (Kach, Kahane Chai, etc.) I maintain that none of those illustrate any Jewish "extremism" near the level we see from the Arab mainstream.
And I will address them point by point if you wish (I know, this is getting quite lengthy). I will just say for the moment, that you did not see any celebrations in the streets of Jerusalem (or among the "extremist" Jewish organizations) following any of those events.
Let's not forget, the origin of this conversation. I stated that the term "Palestine" was a fraud committed by the Romans, perpetuated by the British and reinvented by the Arabs. You agreed, but asked if that makes the Arabs more brutal than the Jews. After all, you said, there are extremists and there are moderates on both sides. So, here I am pointing out that the "extremists" on the Jewish side are far more moderate than the "moderates" on the Arab side.
I'm not looking to pick a fight with you, or to back you into a corner. But if you tell me something with which I disagree, honesty compels me to state my disagreement. Besides, I think it is healthy to have an open, honest and civilized discussion.
I know this is coming a year late, but you're a fucking moron...and a racist one.
Jewish extremists don't have to organize themselves into feeble little groups because they control a nuclear-armed nation-state (Israel). Having trouble finding Jewish extremists? Look at the entire illegal settler population, or the 90-some percent of Israelis that supported the slaughter of 400 children in Gaza. Israelis are EXTREME nationalists (fascists) and their society is an EXTREMELY blood-thirsty one.
Don't worry, it's never too late to advertise what an ass you are.
Please don't be misled by the way I spoke to IdiatBwoy. He addressed me as decent human being, and so we were able to have a civilized discussion, where we strongly but respectfully disagree.
The fact is, if she - or any other Arab "moderate" openly said, "Israel must be destroyed," the response would still be "So?" That's because deep down, everyone knows the entire "peace" process is meant to destroy Israel. It is we Jews who are stupid to think we accomplish something when we "expose" this to the rest of the world. They already know the Arabs' true intention is Israel's destruction.
The point here is (duh) that Ms. Erakat has never (to my knowledge) publicly used 1948, but has always either tacitly accepted the Arab world's line of "the 1967 borders", or she has dodged the question. By using 1948 as the start date of the "occupation" then it's clear that any mention of "1967" is dishonest. The point of the video is to put her on record permanently.
lol at the comment below is it palestinian
mysteriousgal124 1 week ago
bitch put some clothes on. before you talk in our name
kickingurass1 3 weeks ago
DUDE! i know that guy in the button up shirt in front of her wow small world
QariMukhtarA 3 weeks ago
You say it like she's been caught in a scandal or saying something really bad :/
loonylovegood107 1 month ago
if its occuipied from 1948, why the palestinians want that israel will get back to 1967 lines?
Kobi07061985 2 months ago
@Kobi07061985 gave up on some parts
eliash1988 1 month ago
If you are telling the truth your are caught of wrong doing....amazing ethics and morality
Tanblondalex 2 months ago 3
...and?
madmiguelh2o 3 months ago
no one tell the true. There was a big immigration by arabs to "Palestine" before 1948 when jewish refugees that tried to escape from europe couldn't entry by the blocking of the british authnomy. Naura like all the arabs sell a fake story to the world that they want peace, they want to stole a land!
Kobi07061985 5 months ago
How is she wrong? It has been since 1948. That is when Israel declared independence and has played the victim card and built an arsenal of nukes. Nobody recognized WB as Jordan and Gaza as Egypt, they were internationally TBD. Then Israel went nuts in 1967. There is no Israel. There is no Jewish state. They played the holocaust angle to get where they're at, and even that story is full of holes (6 million of holes)
zelonzelon 9 months ago
@zelonzelon = Finkelstein fanboy
constructivereconcil 7 months ago
What you mean to say is that "people like me" that do not view Israel as a legitimate country but as a strategic, geopolitical military base for the purpose of exploiting oil resources and establishing power by the west-- "treat Israel worse"-- Have you thought about a career in comedy? No one said anything about genocide. Just leave. The native peoples of America have the right to advocate for the expulsion of the 'whites". Palestinians have that right too.
sunvoltage 9 months ago
@sunvoltage "The native peoples of America have the right to advocate for the expulsion of the 'whites"
Advocating racism. Charming. Collectivism has no place in the West. The West is a child of Israel. The children will always protect their parents in recognition that without Israel, the world's greatest civilization so far, wouldn't exist at all. Playing the victim when the facts don't support it, gets so old. Please grow up & learn the salient truth before slinging slurs at all you hate.
constructivereconcil 7 months ago
@constructivereconcil See zelonzelon above. All Zionists and advocates thereof must die! There is no separation. There is no "chosen people" decree sent from on high through the manifested voice of some human feel good invention of "god." Your history was written by folks who has ambitious power visions of the future. Your religion and your politics are a lie.
sunvoltage 7 months ago
@sunvoltage "See zelonzelon above" I saw Finkelstein's latest crush.
"All Zionists and advocates thereof must die! There is no separation"
I'm glad you mention that, because few people believe me when I say that Islamic imperialists really think they have a chance to destroy the west. They believe in allah. What more can be said about that?
"There is no "chosen people" decree sent from on high through the manifested voice of some human feel good invention of "god."
You misunderstood.
constructivereconcil 7 months ago
@sunvoltage "Your history was written by folks who has ambitious power visions of the future. Your religion and your politics are a lie"
Well, sadly for you, I have probably been spending more time researching this problem than you have been alive. My positions are always researched completely before I decide. But I knew you were clueless before I even got here.
In the West, we celebrate diversity and allow all views to be published, & vetting reveals the strongest arguments.
constructivereconcil 7 months ago
@sunvoltage "Your history was written by folks who has ambitious power visions of the future. Your religion and your politics are a lie"
This pitiful attempt reminds me of Monty Python. "I fart in your general direction." What next? Go for the jugular vein and call me a Zionist. See how many incorrect assumptions you can make this time...
constructivereconcil 7 months ago
@sunvoltage "What you mean to say is that "people like me"
The only color that your text reveals is the color of lying text, whatever that is. But speaking for myself, I get sick of the lies used to support terrorism, and Islamic supremacy, and Islamic imperialism. Just as Shinto was destroyed, Islam may need the same confrontation with the truth. People would not be so frequently killing themselves if they weren't killed as apostates for thinking critically.
1/2
constructivereconcil 7 months ago
@constructivereconcil who told you Shinto was "destroyed"? It's still an active religion
TheGreaterGood80 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@TheGreaterGood80 "who told you Shinto was "destroyed"? It's still an active religion"
You're an idiot. That is not how one asks respectful questions. You tell me what I'm talking about, since you seem to think you have superior knowledge. Do you even have ANY idea what I am referring do? If yes, say so and then I will reveal my argument, if not, show more courtesy. In either case, I'll continue then.
constructivereconcil 6 months ago
@sunvoltage 2/2
People would not be so frequently killing themselves if Muslims didn't kill apostates for thinking critically. Because the questions are never asked, children are raised without questioning the koran, so it becomes so easy to swallow the lies about the virgins, & whose fault it is for their suffering. Suicide bombers are feted while nobody else is, so whose culture is responsible for this? The West w Israel? No. See Pierre Rehov "Suicide Bombers" + his whole collection really.
constructivereconcil 7 months ago
There is something chilling about ignoring the presence of Israeli society. If someone blew up a bus in Phoenix AZ because it was built on stolen apache land, they would be making the same point. History moves forward, regardless of personal injustice, and you can't ignore the lives of millions for the sake of a historical vendetta.
LearnedHand2008 10 months ago
@LearnedHand2008 So, what you are saying mathematically is: If the Palestinians were to reestablish themselves and Israel were no longer to be and the Zionist jews were scattered and disbursed without a country that 40 years later they should get over it because "you can't ignore the lives of millions for the sake of a vendetta"-- right? The question is: What is SO special about Israel? Why is Israel treated as more special than any other country?
sunvoltage 9 months ago
@sunvoltage
Yes, I would agree, but that's not the case is it? There are 7 million more people there now than there were in 1948, and a developed country, where before there was basically a rural society. Your question is hilarious, as it seems to suggest that with respect to "any other country", it would be normal to advocate for expulsion and genocide. Israel isn't treated special, its treated a lot worse than any normal country, by people like you. Don't ask dishonest questions
LearnedHand2008 9 months ago
@sunvoltage "So, what you are saying mathematically is: If the Palestinians were to reestablish themselves and Israel were no longer to be and the Zionist jews were scattered and disbursed without a country that 40 years later they should get over it because "you can't ignore the lives of millions for the sake of a vendetta"-- right?"
Probably not, but it's a stupid question. We are talking about real facts today, not your insane endless lies.
constructivereconcil 7 months ago
@sunvoltage "The question is: What is SO special about Israel?"
It's the only liberal democracy in the region, it's a commitment made to support them in recognition that if we had been a civil society, we would have supported them earlier in the 19th century, or 1917 at the very latest. We fucked up and half of them died. Never again. Hebron Massacre, Arab appeasement, etc. Finally, Truman defines the issue for the West, & finally it is recognized. Never again.
Next question...?
constructivereconcil 7 months ago
@sunvoltage "Why is Israel treated as more special than any other country?"
It is also true that because Israel is attacked so consistently, it is correctly identified that just like Jerusalem was attacked because the Christians cared so much about it, so Israel is attacked by Muslims, inventing this fiction of "3rd holiest" lie, & all the other lies of Islam, where the Koran is supposed to be taken as correct even when forensic science proves it impossible, so we can't tolerate such lies.
constructivereconcil 7 months ago
@LearnedHand2008
Bored with the whole holocaust deal too?
flymirna 9 months ago
caught doing what? telling the truth?
shreim1 1 year ago 58
yes she caught, she is very honest
MegaBattah 1 year ago
this lady has distroyed all the zionist myths, I love Palestine
MegaBattah 1 year ago
succmgmt your such a coward for saying such things.The world hates your ideals you cowardly person..and fuck your messiah
gmez79 1 year ago
nouras my cousin!
pieluver650 3 years ago
Since 1948? Was that before or after Arab leaders were still referring to it as "Southern Syria"?
curiouscentrist 3 years ago
could you please tell me when was it referred to as Southern Syria?
Bouncert 3 years ago
its always been referred to as Palestine, even people in the Pan-Syria movie referred to it as such.
Learn your facts.
Entaruadunexecutor 3 years ago
go noura !!!
riba4leb 3 years ago 30
the juwish ckaims in palestine have nothing to do with historical facts or clear events,they depend in most of thier claims on thier hand made turat that horrible rassist brutal war book as they also creat other evil books to control the world like the book of magic and evil Kabala and the talmoud and the sinhardin and alll of it writen from master evil mind give the juwish through the history the right to massacre the other humans and steal thier lands just becz they are the choosen childrens
prinsiii 3 years ago
It's from 1967, isn't it?
freesexforfigs 4 years ago
No, it's 1948.
PaLiMan72 4 years ago
Kahane and Irv Rubin both got what they deserved. And God bless Frank Weltner for
his Christian work of exposing the satan
worshipping jews.
Oy vey, jews in exile. Shalom
DirtyJew88 4 years ago
Yes, Yes. I'm aware you feel that way. And if we all got exterminated, you'd say we got what we deserved also. That's why only a fool would give a damn about what you and others like you think.
You continue to protest. Shout all you want about "occupation," and "oppression." We will do what we gotta do to survive.
"Better an Israel that's hated by the world than an Auschwitz that's loves by it." -- Rabbi Meir Kahane.
succmgmt 4 years ago
EXCELLENT WORDS Succmgmt!
EXCELLENT-I like your style!
hawkandpanther 4 years ago
Thank you, hawkandpanther. I speak from the heart.
succmgmt 4 years ago
I stand with you succmgmt.
Israel forever!
GOLDA MEIR WOULD BE PROUD!
I loved that woman!
hawkandpanther 4 years ago
No self respecting Christian can be anti-semitic. Jesus HIMSELF was and IS Jewish.
( don't reply with
"they crucified Christ stuff) The Holy sites for all are preserved in Israel.
If Christendom had started in Saudi Arabia, pigrims could not go because the sites would be wiped out!
hawkandpanther 4 years ago
Your very disturbed.
IdiatBwoy 4 years ago
Oh well. Sucks to be them. Maybe those Kassam rocket attacks were not such a good idea after all.
Here's the good news: They're free to leave.
succmgmt 4 years ago
I agree on both counts... The world does listen to Arabs even as they complain that the suicide belt-wearing terrorist was handled too aggressively. Yet they turn a deaf ear to the Jewish would-be victim. But the good news is that with help from the Creator, our spirit has overcome - and will continue to overcome - the Arab sword.
But I wouldn't refer to it as the "Palestine" Conflict. "Palestine" is a figment of the Roman imagination, inherited by the British, and reinvented by the Arabs.
succmgmt 4 years ago
Your right, Palestine is a Roman name but does the fact that its a Roman given name not indicate that Romans took the land long before the 'brutal' Arabs came on the scene. It seems your using the 'brutal' Arabs as a scapegoat, thats very unfair. I think if you watch the news, or at least the news in Englans you see both sides; the bomb belt wearing Jihadist and the ultra-right wing settlers who arent exactly much better. However there are people inbetween on both sides who want peace, do you ?
IdiatBwoy 4 years ago
(Part 1 of 5)
You are rattling of a bunch of nonsense. I shall try to address each of your points, one at a time...
Yes, the fact that "Palestine" is a Roman name indicates that Rome stole the land from us long before the Arabs were on the scene. Thus, the land is mine, and the Arab claim that "Palestine" belongs to the "Palestinians" is a fraud. I didn't call them "brutal" Arabs, but now that you mention it, if they wish to take my land, and kill me in the process, they're indeed brutal.
succmgmt 4 years ago
(Part 2 of 5)
I'm not scapegoating the Arabs. I just want my land. If they would stop fighting us, I wish them well - elsewhere. This is my land.
I see how you see both sides. On the one hand you have bomb belt wearing Jihadist (your own words), and on the other extreme, we have ultra-right wing settlers (also your words). So in your opinion, Jews who commit the unspeakable crime of "settling," aren't much better (your words) than Jihadists who blow up shopping malls.
"Both sides."
succmgmt 4 years ago
(Part 3 of 5)
FYI, I'm one of those ultra-right wingers, and intend to "settle" (>:O) a piece of that land. Would you rather sit next to me on a bus, or one of those bomb belt wearing Jihadists?
You say people in between on both sides want peace. Where is the "in between" on the Arab side? Are they among the overwhelming majority who elected Hamas? Or are they to be found among ranks of Fatah, who has deployed even more suicide bombers than Hamas?
succmgmt 4 years ago
(Part 4 of 5)
Or are they among the residents of Ramallah, who gathered at the Police Station in October 2000, and lynched two Israelis who were arrested for the crime of entering Ramallah?
Or are they among the crowds who flooded the streets on 9/11/01, honking their horns, and dancing, and passing out candy?
Or are they among the teachers who play videos for their students of Mickey Mouse and Bugs Bunny look-a-like characters singing about killing Jews?
succmgmt 4 years ago
(Part 5 of 5)
Of course all of the above pales in comparison to the barbaric crime of "settling."
And yes, I want peace. Do you think any normal person doesn't? But would you surrender London for peace? I'm not willing to sacrifice my homeland, or my life for peace. The Arabs, on the other hand have demonstrated that they are willing to sacrifice their lives to end mine. They will destroy me and my homeland, or die trying. I choose the latter.
Yeah. Both sides.
succmgmt 4 years ago
Im not even concerned with what 'wing' you are, what counts is that someone is a good person or a bad person, you, I think are really a good person. I would sit next to anyone as long as they were a decent human. Succmgmt, what happened in Ramallah was horrible along with all the other things and there no denying that they happened but there have been tredful events on both 'sides'. While that doesnt justify it, Im just trying to show its not just Arabs being bad/violent. (message cont).
IdiatBwoy 4 years ago
I know you didnt literally say Arabs were brutal but you seem to be casting a sweeping generalisation over them as being that way. The reason I refered to "right-wing settlers" wasnt as an attack but more to show that there are extremists shall we say on both 'sides'. Im well aware that there are many peaceful people who come to settle in Israel. While the name 'Palestine' might be a fraud, you fail to realise people have been living in that land, regardless of what name it had, for years.
IdiatBwoy 4 years ago
Succmgmt, before I start Id like to make it clear that my intension is not to argue or back people into corners or put people down etc. Im merely here to talk sense with, not against people, like yourself you seek a peaceful coexistance in Israel. Refering to me as someone who is "rattling a bunch of nonsense" is not how Id like to be spoken to, is that ok ? Peace (message cont)
IdiatBwoy 4 years ago
(Part 1 of 12)
IdiatBwoy: I don't believe you intend to argue me into a corner, or put me down. But you (perhaps unwittingly) insulted my people by equating suicide bombers with with settlers. What makes it more significant, is that in all likelihood, you drew the parallel in order to find a balance between the sides. Moreover, you're simply wrong. I said you rattled a bunch of nonsense, not to insult you, but rather because what you said is nonsense. I apologize if you took it the wrong way.
succmgmt 4 years ago
(Part 2 of 12)
I can appreciate that you're not concerned with what "wing" I am. I only mentioned it, because since you referred to the "ultra-right wing settlers" as congruent to the bomb belt wearing Jihadist, I thought I should mention that I am one of those "ultra-right wing (future) settlers." You are right, what counts is whether one is a good or a bad person. I submit to you that bomb belt wearing Jihadists are not good people.
succmgmt 4 years ago
(Part 3 of 12)
I like to believe I'm a good person (and I thank you for the kind sentiment), but your initial comment seemed to suggest (actually, you said it outright) that the ultra-right wing settlers (such as myself) "aren't exactly much better" than bomb belt wearing Jihadists. I understand full well that you referred to the "right-wing settlers" to show there are extremists both sides. And that suggests there is a parallel between a suicide bomber, and a settler. I take offense at that.
succmgmt 4 years ago
(Part 4 of 12)
That's why I asked whom you'd rather sit next to on a bus. I was not alluding to whom you see as a better person. Being a fairly decent human being, I'm sure you'd sit next to anyone else who is likewise decent. But I doubt you'd sit next to a guy (decent or not) with a bomb around his waist. My question was to illustrate the absurdity of the parallel you drew.
succmgmt 4 years ago
(Part 5 of 12)
You say there are extremists on both sides. I beg to differ. By and large, Jews don't wish to throw the all Arabs into the sea. We don't seek to poison Arab restaurants. We don't have snipers putting bullets in babies' heads. We don't dismember 13 year old boys. We don't blow up school busses.
succmgmt 4 years ago
(Part 6 of 12)
We don't ambush a car, and then run up to the car and put a bullet in the head of a pregnant mother, and then into her belly, and then put a bullet into the head of her 11 year old daughter, and then put a bullet into the head of the 9 year old daughter, and then put a bullet into the head of the 7 year old daughter, and then put a bullet into the head of the 2 year old daughter.
succmgmt 4 years ago
(Part 7 of 12)
Our "extremists" are notorious merely for their insistence on settling the land. This is more tame than the most leftist among Arabs. What would you call an Arab settler? Would he also be classified as extremist?
I understand you acknowledge there are many peaceful people who come to settle Israel. Why, then do you use the word "settlers" to describe the extremists? Does it have something to do with what part of Israel they choose to settle?
succmgmt 4 years ago
(Part 8 of 12)
With regard to Ramallah and all the other things I mentioned: Of course, I never doubted that you agree they were horrible and dreadful events. I didn't mention them for the purpose of lamenting the horrible things that have been done to us. I was directly addressing your statement that "there are people in between on both sides who want peace." The events I described were all done by mainstream Arabs. Hence my question: Where is the in between on the Arab side?
succmgmt 4 years ago
(Part 9 of 12)
The killers in Ramallah acted in the open, INSIDE AND IN FRONT OF THE POLICE STATION, with no fear of arrest. One of them was even photographed flaunting his blood-soaked hands (literally - not a metaphor) to the frenzied cheers of the crowd. This is the ARAB MAINSTREAM. Compare this to the extreme right among the Jews, who are distinguished by their insistence on "Settling."
succmgmt 4 years ago
(Part 10 of 12)
Thus I repeat, and with all due respect: Your attempt to equate dreadful events on "both sides" is nonsense. Your suggestion that there are parallel extremists on both sides in nonsense. Your suggestion that there are moderates (people in between) on both sides is nonsense.
succmgmt 4 years ago
(Part 11 of 12)
I do not fail to realize that people have been living on that land for many years. They've been living on MY LAND, and they would have been welcome to stay, had they not tried to prevent us from returning. The Jewish right to this land is absolute, and has no expiration date. No rational human being can say we lost our claim to it, because we had been forcefully and brutally prevented from exercising that claim.
succmgmt 4 years ago
(Part 12 of 12)
That's where the fraudulent claim of "Palestine" comes in. They are trying (as seen in this video) to perpetrate the greatest fraud in modern history - the claim that there is a "Palestinian" people with a historic claim to a "Palestine," which was replaced in 1948 by Israel. The purpose of this fraud is not to merely enable them to live there. The purpose is to "reclaim" (destroy) all of Israel.
succmgmt 4 years ago
Thats half true. Again Im not here to argue so dont back me into a corner where Im going to have to start naming specific extremist organisations just to make a point. The fact remains, there are some but there also good hearted ones. If the Arab settler is a nice person who doesnt harm people then Im probably for but if their not then obviously Im not going to support them. I dont use the word settlers to describe extremits, and if I did Im sorry. (message cont).
IdiatBwoy 4 years ago
These events are tragic and Im deeply sorry that they ever happened. However there is no need to list them like that to try and get a point accross to me as Iam already fully aware of these horrible things happening. You dont see me listing all the disgusting events that have been done againts Palestinians, it wont anyone anywhere apart from feeling more hate.
IdiatBwoy 4 years ago
You may beg to differ but Im affraid its the truth. Im not going to start listing the horrible events that have happened to Arabs as well just to try and compete who has it worst but the fact is both people dont have it easy. Israel (as in Israeli government, not citizens) has done some pretty nasty things to. We could be here all day saying the horrible events that have happened to Israelis and Palestinians but where does that get us ?
IdiatBwoy 4 years ago
If I knew the person had a bomb on them then obviously I wouldnt want to sit next to them. Point taken.
IdiatBwoy 4 years ago
My friend, firstly Im going to make the point once again that my intention isnt to argue with you or cause disrespect to you or your people. The reason I mentioned 'ultra-right-wing' settlers was to show their are extremists on both sides. Had I known the name of any specific groups I would mention them instead rather than box everyone in. Im sorry you take offense to that I didnt mean it in anyway against you.
IdiatBwoy 4 years ago
(Part 1 of 15)
To IdiatBwoy: First of all, I apologize for the delay in my response. Unfortunately, I'm much busier than I'd like to be.
Your response is a bit unclear at times. It's sometimes hard to know which of my points you're responding to. Also, the order in which your comments appear seems to shift from the way you originally typed them. A few suggestions:
succmgmt 4 years ago
(Part 2 of 15)
When you begin a comment, click "reply" to my last comment. After that, whenever you add additional comments, put it in AS A REPLY TO YOUR LATEST COMMENT.
Also, try to specify what it is your addressing ("re xyz...").
Now...
succmgmt 4 years ago
(Part 3 of 15)
My intention is likewise not to argue or disrespect you. But I do think we can disagree respectfully, albeit resolutely. Apology accepted (vis-à-vis the "ultra right wing settlers").
You said "You may beg to differ but I'm afraid it's the truth." I assume you're addressing my statement about "extremists on both sides." While there may be extremists on both sides, my point was (and I still maintain) that the Jewish "extremists" cannot be compared to that on the Arab side.
succmgmt 4 years ago
(Part 4 of 15)
In fact, a Jewish extremist would, by Arab standards, be considered a peace activist. This is illustrated by the fact that no names of any specific Jewish extremist group came to mind. The Jewish extremists are not notable, because they are so few in number, and comparatively restrained in their views.
I agree this is not a competition for who has it worse. Indeed, there is suffering on both sides (as there is in every war), but that doesn't define extremism.
succmgmt 4 years ago
(Part 5 of 15)
And yes, there may be one Jew in a million, who would commit horrible acts against Arabs, but that's one in a million, and not supported by 99.99% of the Jews. Not so with the Arabs.
The events of last week serve as a perfect example. Remember, I'm not talking about the horror of the event itself, but the mainstream reaction to it. Mahmood Abbas, the "moderate" leader of Fattah, announced on "Palestinian" radio that the killer of the 8 yeshiva students is a holy martyr.
succmgmt 4 years ago
(Part 6 of 15)
Can you ever picture Ehud Olmert saying such a thing, if the situation was reversed? Can imagine the streets of Jerusalem filled with celebrants at the news that a Jew walked into an Arab school and executed eight Arab kids? This illustrates the difference between the two cultures. There is no comparison between our "extremists" and theirs.
Indeed, Israel may have done some pretty nasty things. But nothing more than the tragically necessary things that are done in any war.
succmgmt 4 years ago
(Part 7 of 15)
But they have done far worse to the Jews. Keep in mind, the first responsibility of any government is the protection of its citizens from enemy hostility. Israel has failed in that regard, because of an overzealousness to avoid civilian casualties on the enemy's side.
The fact is any normal country would have carpet bombed any enemy area saturated with missile activity. If the enemy hides among the civilian population, it is they who are causing the atrocity, not the Israelis.
succmgmt 4 years ago
(Part 8 of 15)
While we can argue forever about the ethics of Israel's military actions, it's far different with the Arabs. The "Palestinian" strategy is based entirely on killing civilians. And they explicitly want it to be as gruesome as possible. For example, when they mutilated those two boys and left them in a cave, they could just as easily have shot them dead, and been done with it.
succmgmt 4 years ago
(Part 9 of 15)
But their strategy depends on horrific headlines. It (they hope) weakens the resolve of the Jews, and strengthens the morale of the Arabs (which itself speaks volumes).
Again, I'm not trying to tell you of yet another horror story (you're right, we can do that forever, to no benefit). I am showing you the clear difference between one man's extremist and another man's Shahid.
succmgmt 4 years ago
(Part 10 of 15)
Sorry I was a bit overly dramatic in describing the murder of the Hatuel family. My aim was to show that even the most infamous act on the Jewish side doesn't come close to what was done there. And the Arabs applauded (celebrated) it!
It's not just that horrible things happen. The events I listed happen only on one side. The most extreme among the Jews don't do that kind of stuff. And if they did and got caught, can you imagine the Israeli government demanding their release?
succmgmt 4 years ago
(Part 11 of 15)
No, you did not list the disgusting things that happened to the "Palestinians." Nor did you name any specific "extremist" organizations. Why not do so? If we are going to have a frank conversation, by all means, list whatever bolsters your point. I will not take offense (though I might disagree).
succmgmt 4 years ago
(Part 12 of 15)
I have an idea as to some of the events you have in mind: Boruch Goldstein (may G-d avenge his blood); Kafr Kana; Sabra & Shatila; the family killed on the Gaza Beach. I also have an idea of some of the organizations you speak of (Kach, Kahane Chai, etc.) I maintain that none of those illustrate any Jewish "extremism" near the level we see from the Arab mainstream.
succmgmt 4 years ago
(Part 13 of 15)
And I will address them point by point if you wish (I know, this is getting quite lengthy). I will just say for the moment, that you did not see any celebrations in the streets of Jerusalem (or among the "extremist" Jewish organizations) following any of those events.
succmgmt 4 years ago
(Part 14 of 15)
Let's not forget, the origin of this conversation. I stated that the term "Palestine" was a fraud committed by the Romans, perpetuated by the British and reinvented by the Arabs. You agreed, but asked if that makes the Arabs more brutal than the Jews. After all, you said, there are extremists and there are moderates on both sides. So, here I am pointing out that the "extremists" on the Jewish side are far more moderate than the "moderates" on the Arab side.
succmgmt 4 years ago
(Part 15 of 15)
I'm not looking to pick a fight with you, or to back you into a corner. But if you tell me something with which I disagree, honesty compels me to state my disagreement. Besides, I think it is healthy to have an open, honest and civilized discussion.
succmgmt 4 years ago
I know this is coming a year late, but you're a fucking moron...and a racist one.
Jewish extremists don't have to organize themselves into feeble little groups because they control a nuclear-armed nation-state (Israel). Having trouble finding Jewish extremists? Look at the entire illegal settler population, or the 90-some percent of Israelis that supported the slaughter of 400 children in Gaza. Israelis are EXTREME nationalists (fascists) and their society is an EXTREMELY blood-thirsty one.
amiralmumineen 2 years ago
(Part 1 of 2)
Don't worry, it's never too late to advertise what an ass you are.
Please don't be misled by the way I spoke to IdiatBwoy. He addressed me as decent human being, and so we were able to have a civilized discussion, where we strongly but respectfully disagree.
Not so with you. To you I will only say this:
succmgmt 2 years ago
(Part 2 of 2)
Yes, we have a nuclear armed state. And if you screw with us, you'll glow in the dark.
Yes, (let's assume for the sake of argument) we killed 400 children in Gaza. Maybe those Kassam rockets were not such a good idea after all.
Yes, we're extremists. And, G-d willing, very soon, we will demonstrate our extremism to you in ways you never imagined.
Prepare the virgins!
succmgmt 2 years ago
Notice the responses to this video: "So?"
The fact is, if she - or any other Arab "moderate" openly said, "Israel must be destroyed," the response would still be "So?" That's because deep down, everyone knows the entire "peace" process is meant to destroy Israel. It is we Jews who are stupid to think we accomplish something when we "expose" this to the rest of the world. They already know the Arabs' true intention is Israel's destruction.
And they're on board with the idea.
succmgmt 4 years ago
slip of the tongue perhaps. olmert let slip about israels nuclear capabilities not so long ago...oh so he WAS being dishonest!
bigmadbad 4 years ago
wow! one mistake and ive been sent to the slaughter house. lol.
you still havent answered my questions though, whats the point of this video?
lol zionism is based on a fantasy not my politics.
bigmadbad 4 years ago
The point here is (duh) that Ms. Erakat has never (to my knowledge) publicly used 1948, but has always either tacitly accepted the Arab world's line of "the 1967 borders", or she has dodged the question. By using 1948 as the start date of the "occupation" then it's clear that any mention of "1967" is dishonest. The point of the video is to put her on record permanently.
CharlesRyder 4 years ago
... which you would have noticed, by the way, if you had merely read the video's information.
CharlesRyder 4 years ago
Ok, so its been 17 months since this videos! what the hell is your point then?
did you manage to get AIPAC to lynch her yet?
bigmadbad 4 years ago
More like 10 months ... your math is a bit like your politics: it ignores facts in favor of fantasy.
CharlesRyder 4 years ago
So?
dilbertgeg 4 years ago