Advanced Ving Tsun Chi Sao Practices 2 w Sifu Tom Chi

[warriormonk108]

The only reason it makes since is beacause you put all the energy in the wrists , both of them.

[heartslord]

@warriormonk108

Interesting observation. And most important is that the energy there is meant to control entry into the striking range. The wrists compose a very important part of chi sao so controlling them is key. For an elbow strike to be in range, btw, one chi sao must collapse and with it the ability to redirect that incoming technique. Properly played no elbow will come close enough and will result in the opponent turned, destitute and forlorn. Lol.

[trubblman]

I dont agree with some of the analysis. The asian can trap you with an elbow  by simply switching to tan sau if you push behind the elbow. I dont agree with some of your analyses although I see your skill. For example you mentioned you cannot turn and hit with elbow. Sure you can. Biu Ji teaches that you can IMO. Hitting with elbows and not the preferred the method but it can be done and should not be pooh-poohed for the elbows and knees are very hard surfaces.

[heartslord]

@trubblman

Thoughtful and appreciated. When entry is well done there's no chance of switching to a tan at that point. Poorly done anything can happen. As to the elbow as I've said many times, they are a dead-end technique & should be avoided. deadly when allowed to work. Why not train to a higher level than we might need. I wouldn't use one and I've trained elbows more than most anyone ;-) As to Biu Ji, those flying elbows could be for strikes but they are too easily defeated so hm.

[ronin752]

Your chi sao is good. You seem to have a very high level of development. Wing Chun reminds me of the Okinawan styles of karate, it is like looking back in time. One question. I noticed that often during chi sao you redirect energy, trap hands, and strike, but you don't often repostion and move around the opponent (of course you could do this two ways, move the opponent or move your own body). Why don't I see that? Or do you emphasize this during other trainings not shown here.

[heartslord]

@ronin752

In these demonstration breakdowns the opp is not using much force so it dissipates or vaguely redirects with no big splash. If there was more, since I won't allow it to come into my triangle it would cause more rotation and deflection, perhaps even stumbling of the opp. I will always want to keep my centerline directed at the opps center even when he is turned. Then both of my hands are always viable for simultaneous use, particularly since I don't turn the body when striking etc. ;-)

[ronin752]

@heartslord

So am I to understand that the Wing Chun practictioner will never get behind the opp. Because that would mean for a second losing the centerline.

[heartslord]

@ronin752

Actually there are many opinions of what Wing Chun is and does. For me it means never losing the centerline. In fact, this is one of the factors that makes WC a unique art. There is however no reason to abandon those strengths to go behind the opp. Most opps are happy to be turned off and present their back to you however it's not necessary as the WC neutralizes and controls the front just as well.

[heartslord]

@GetAJobBro

And you too my friend!

[ecigaddict]

Nice strike to the face from the elbow hand. Didn't think about doing that.

[ravernow]

I dont believe that he can stop my elbow in chi sao :)

[heartslord]

@ravernow

I recognize that by not understanding the video one cannot make a thoughtful summary judgement. Please rewatch the video until it's clear that it's essentially impossible to use an elbow when the opponent counters Prior to collapsing. This requires the opponent to have excellent kung fu as is represented in this lesson. After a collapse the elbow would work. It's physics. Otherwise and in general I'm sure your technique is excellent. TY

[Jasper50]

Great vid.

[tdbevolution]

The idea where I believe a lot of people are misguided is that Biu Ji, and the ideas of it, are used too quickly without anyone actually understanding the use of elbow power and striking. Not saying that BJ is the only form with elbows; Most people get the idea from the third form mostly by sight. The BJ form teaches the idea of how to return to Centerline...meaning you were off centerline with the form in the first place. WCK rules say stick to CK and SNT; BJ only for emergency.

[heartslord]

@tdbevolution

I have a vague recollection of an emergency BJ. Uh... grins. Great thoughts. And then the WC is imbibed and just like when a connect the dots painting picture is finished and becomes alive the matrix is removed and one only sees the living painting. Once imbibed, correctly, the VT plays like a beautiful harp strung only for correct notes. Then when we play it, it is a beautiful melody. I play hands for my students but for me it's so beyond fighting or principles, ITS ALIVE!

[tdbevolution]

@heartslord You are not going to see me argue with anything you just said. I understand it loud and clear. I did not get to tell you this from my tdhob email lately, but I am now a Moy Yat Lineage Follower. I got my certification a month ago. I am now looking towards people like you to have my test physics, theories, applications, etc. to become a better WCK man.

[heartslord]

@tdbevolution

good news! Also fee free to visit.

regards,tc

[heartslord]

@tdbevolution

P.s. But.. while I'm enjoying the sheer delight of playing hands in the light... the opponent.. would do well to follow the VT principles and perhaps say a prayer. For both of us. :-)

Okay, back to reality. Point is, when played according to physics the VT is amazing and plays itself. Effortless and virtually flawless. But, first we do, as you say, need to focus correctly on learning the mechanics.

[Daquan70]

I was just trained this technique this afternoon in my class. The same explanation with what my Sifu told me..

[tony7193]

Trapping elbow nicely done.Tony,My3

[AAAW3213]

You mention Moy Yat Ving Tsun as your style, and yet comment that this and that are not wing chun. It'd be one thing to say that it wasn't Moy Yat Ving Tsun, but to encompass wing chun demonstrates a lack of understanding. For instance, Pien San Wing Chun, also known as side body or turning style wing chun not only incorporates the elbow, but obviously uses position involving extreme twisting.

[heartslord]

@AAAW3213

Great point so let me clarify. What sets wing chun apart as a distinct style is the physics that I teach. When you turn sideways it's Shaolin Kung Fu. Not wing chun by any standard that I will allow. So, poop in the soup all you want and call it an esteemed lineage of cooking, by MY standards it's a complete miss. No patting one another on the back and wink-winking at shortcomings. I ran fast & far from all the "wing chun" I saw then found MYVTKK, what I call "non-pretend" WC. Enjoy!

[heartslord]

@AAAW3213

To be more clear. You lose control and contact when you turn to the side. You can't use both limbs or the centerline, it GUTS the system to do that. And those things are the core of wing chun. How ridiculous to say one can do anything they want and command respect as a functional kung fu system.

Many WC practitioners consider it a science. Those who don't really don't get why WC is unique.

I found your comment thoughtful and hope you find my response to be constructive as I intended!

[wingchun2k10]

Hey he could muscle you...Just kidding. I watched the vid response with the elbow being used that someone posted on you comments. I agree with you that elbows are not good to use in the manner that was shown. If you have any training you can nullify the attack using third form techs. Its all about the science of the art. Just my opinion.

[vigiyoung]

Biu Jee

[vigiyoung]

I like the third response to the elbow. By saying that we can't use the elbow to attack, isn't that limiting? Sorry I love the elbows, especially when timed correctly, i can't help but to mention muay thai... I love wing chun, especally the elbows. Thank you for the video.

[heartslord]

@vigiyoung

It's fine to use it. But I've demonstrated that it's low-level application as it is so easy to prevent and overcome with advanced trained skills.

It'll work fine on beginners.

Watch the vid again, learn high-level VT skills, stop using the elbow (destroying your VT integrity - based on operational physics).

;-)

[vigiyoung]

@heartslord Respectfully, thanks for the quick response sir. I think I understand . If the elbow misses, or gets deflected and in the same motion I shove the shoulder forward to attack/tackle/defense. Do you think that is a recovery ? or is the elbow just too risky to throw at a skilled opponent? Thanks for pointing that out.

[heartslord]

By the way, it's not limiting, it's the integrity of the VT itself. The elbow turns you, makes you Cho Kil (collapsed) and gives you no recovery if it's defused. Third form students think it's the cats meow until they realize what crap it really is. The same principle applies to Muay Thai. It's deadly if it strikes you however we train VT physics to preclude being hit with these techs.

When you say you especially love the elbows, there are no elbows in WC, just a misinterpretation.

[heartslord]

Just a misinterpretation of how the physics are put together.

It's like finding a golden egg and then finding out with scientific testing that it's not gold at all.

;-)

[GeneralDelta]

@heartslord I guess when you say there are no elbows in WT you must be precluding methods that use them from the definition of WT and there by their respective practitioners, this would also include Sifu Emin Boztepe, and it believe it's difficult to refute his effectiveness, at least in person. It's very limiting to make rules that are NEVER broken. I believe rules are mostly there to guide the beginner, the master should have the insight and intuition to know what can and cannot be done.

[heartslord]

@GeneralDelta

Great points. Fact is, it's like saying that if you are forward weighted you cannot kick with that leg until you shift weight. When you use an elbow for a strike it means you've attacked an ignorant person in which case who cares? A VT player who understands 3rd form would never let an elbow attack go by without rewarding it with simple technique from the physics of VT. In black jack it would be like saying hit me with two kings showing. As to Emin it's the main weakness he shows,

[GeneralDelta]

@heartslord Hmm, I would agree that the demonstration was not the correct way to use elbows, but you would have to have more than that to stop a properly implement elbow. I would certainly agree elbows in general are risky if poorly implemented, as was demonstrated. However, implying Sifus like Boztepe don't understand 3rd form is quite a statement! Moreover this is not as much a matter of physics as it is strategy; and there is a time and play to castle and a time and place not to.

[heartslord]

@GeneralDelta

Thoughtful. However.. It's one thing to enjoy using elbows just because you can. It's another to teach others to use bad technique by example. You mentioned Emin as an example. My opinion is the technique is not good and I explain the physics of why that is so. That's the point. It's physics. Only if you collapse and can't do a simple technique from 3rd form will you get hit with an elbow.

[GeneralDelta]

@heartslord You keep talking about physics like it's some sort of God that has endowed you with stone tablets. Physics is concerned with the why and how a movement will take place under certain conditions, not with whether or not it is practical. In weaponry we now have guns which could be argued as superior to the knife, but knifes still get used. Why? One reason is that in some situations it's tactically a better idea not to make noise. To elbow or not to elbow, is a tactical decision, period.

[heartslord]

@GeneralDelta

Good news. The elbow and other VT are both silent. So no need to bring a knife to a gun fight. Like you said a Master can choose what technique to use. As far as tactical decisions go this is also a misunderstanding. The reason we play the best VT possible is because once we imbibe we have no need to think when playing the kung fu. Train crap, exhibit crap. We don't decide what to do next particularly consciously, the VT mainly plays itself. Train to use elbows and you will.

[GeneralDelta]

@heartslord That was a straw man response. My point was that physics is not dictating the value of a technique selection anymore than it is a weapon selection; not whether it's silent or the virtue of bring a knife to a gun fight. A physics question is whether or not you can strike and how much force you'll have if you do; not whether or not you should. Perhaps if you were to use the word logic, it wouldn't rub against the grain as much; though I believe your conclusion would still be in error.

[heartslord]

@GeneralDelta

We disagree however I find your arguments to be thoughtful and constructive.

Let's move on.

[GeneralDelta]

@heartslord I don't think we will come to resolution on this point via short text messages back to forth either. Thank you for your respectful responses, it has been a pleasure discussing the matter with you. Best of wishes in your training.

[heartslord]

@GeneralDelta

Elbows are very easy to overcome. So, just as we should not turn our bodies perpendicular to the opponent we should also not use a deadend technique just because the opp doesn't understand how easily defeated that tech is with proper VT understanding. My statements are not meant to be personal & I have no idea why Emin uses that technique. It's a bad idea, not based on my preference but the simple science that says it's a bad idea. Emin btw hasn't asked for my opinion ;-)

[GeneralDelta]

@heartslord

1) Elbows CAN and should be applied WITHOUT turning 99% of the time.

2) Elbows are for when situations have become closer than normal hand technique will allow, just like feet are mostly for distances outside of normal hand movement.

3) If I have the position for the elbow there is little that can be done other than to move back to reclaim space or go to sleep.

4)You are looking at the technique in a vacuum without context; positional context is everything.

[heartslord]

@GeneralDelta

If the idiot you are engaging allows you to use the elbow enjoy using it. I've clearly dissected and explained why the elbow should not be used on purpose as it breaks the physics and leaves one vulnerable with no followup, both rules of VT that should be observed. You personally may enjoy it. It still is not good kung fu. Watch my two vids explaining this & perhaps you will agree. Since I've proved my point scientifically I don't see the point of further discussion. Best regards

[GeneralDelta]

@heartslord You have not made the definitive point you are asserting, as you have yet to address real WT style elbows. But even if had addressed it, it would be like saying the punches aren't in WT because I can easily wedge them, and thus this bad kung fu. For your "proof" to be valid, like in mathematics, you have to prove all cases. You have only addressed one flawed case. I would like to see you work with someone with proper training.

[heartslord]

@GeneralDelta

No, the punch, palm, bil jee fingers etc., are staged appropriately and able to flow from one to another as the live situation flows. The elbow is a dead end - if- the opponent knows how to counter. A punch is not a dead end, it doesn't leave you cho kil without options. I've worked with a lot of great players. I hope you will study my elbows videos & get the concept. If not you seem quite adept & I'm sure you do fine anyway. For the concept for everyone else I'll stick w physics.

[GeneralDelta]

@heartslord I agree we should move on, but I do want to express the elbow does not have to be a dead end. When I pak my sifu, it does not result in an exploitable position, due to hip work and proper entry to start. Moreover a forward facing elbow is VERY hard to get on the back side of, especially when applied close from a trapped position. That's another point, your technique only work when the hand are available, there are elbow technique that allow complex trapping your not looking at.

[heartslord]

@GeneralDelta

If you have trapped the opp with the elbow congrats, it worked. However 3rd form teaches one Not to become trapped by using the uh, wait for it, Physics of VT which includes not becoming chokil instead heading off allowing the opp to trap you. That I believe, is in my videos. There comes a point of no return, I think we've reached it. Anything further is just a reach around okay? ;-)

Finally, come for a visit and I'll prove this in a friendly fashion. Keep up the good work.

[heartslord]

@heartslord

So now let's move on to other topics.

Regards!

[heartslord]

@GeneralDelta

P.s I never meant to suggest that one would turn to use the elbow but that you would be turned if the other player has proper kung fu. Also, you are in good company as Emin has good kung fu and he likes the elbow. My intention is to teach students to strive for the highest expression of the kung fu and hope they don't get stuck using an elbow. Btw, in the Hung Gar I trained extensively using elbows ala uppercut elbow, roundhouse elbow, back knuckle roundhouse, chop elbow, etc.

[heartslord]

@GeneralDelta

pt 2, Either way, why train for lame technique that can be so easily refuted but instead, train to a higher level than what we need since you are unlikely to fight a highly trained VT practitioner. A Master in particular should show the highest expression of the art even if they can win using techs that simply break the physics and that is, using elbows which leave no followup tech available if one is properly rerouted. I have I think 2 vids explaining this in detail. ;-)

[linuxva]

Good tips ! Thanks for sharing ! Seems for me in this life I cannot learn Wing Chun .

[heartslord]

@linuxva

you can visit and learn here and go home to open a school. then I or one of the teaching brothers can visit you 4 times per year.

Yes!

[chisaoboy]

Interesting video... thanks for the tips. Seeme to me that the Biu Jee clearly shows elbows being used as downwardly striking weapons, so I'm left confused. Would you please clarlify my thinking? Thank you!

[heartslord]

Good question. The physics and practical application show that the elbow shouldn't be used except on drunks, your own students and imaginary friends. However, just as in the second form there is a punch where you fully extend the arm, basically locking it, that appears to be exercise. Also form punches are followed by extending the arm (locke) with palm up to ensure good practice of the hune. So, without digging up Ng Moi to ask her, I'd say it's more for exercise.

It happens! ;-)

[kelly980]

i'd elbow him about 5 times in the first 10 seconds if we did chi sau

[heartslord]

@kelly980

Good point. That's why 1- don't pick a fight with a guy in superb shape like Kelly who can take and deliver multiple blows with ease... until you plan to use deadly force.

2- understand that at that level of fighting (a well-conditioned MMA fighter) you have perhaps a split second to act and if you fail, it's over.

A drunk or ordinary human you may be able to use your skills to easily overcome. A hulking fighter is another level. Doable but dangerous and requires lethal force.

[heartslord]

Fortunately, great MMA fighters and equally deadly Ving Tsun and other fighters do not act irrationally under most circumstances. Having been attacked many times, by multiple fighters, the kung fu works great. One fighter though if substantial enough, raises the bar quite a bit so never underestimate your opponent and if he looks like the hulk prepare to run, kill or be killed.

More or less... ;-)

[GUFF21]

From what i gather, you don't like the elbow, which is fine, it is used incorrectly too often, however, there are a time and a place, and if he was throwing his kwai-jarn correctly, he would have used just-sau or kau-sau on your other hand first, then he would have STEPPED IN, he isn't in the proper range, and you can use a kup-jarn to counter his kwai-jarn anyhow. I agree for novices and beginners elbows should not be used, that is why they are contained in the Biu-Tze set.

[heartslord]

@GUFF21

I agree in principle with your knowledgable comment. In reality elbows are only used on players with very poor kung fu, won't work on others. Still leaves you collapsed with no next move other than to have a cigarette and this isn't sex.

For sexy moves though please see my video - Sexy Ving Tsun for Players -

Just kidding.

[chrysostomou1]

yep, i like. everything you say about the elbow is correct, i would add though that in chisao play, often players will provide poor structure and therefore allow the use of the elbow and forearm as a simple pin. third form elbow use as an escape for when you have messed up and lost the line in chisao play. i often use elbow and forearm to close chisao range and pin and find it works for me. thankyou for your post.

[heartslord]

@chrysostomou1

Indeed. There are a number of uses in particular for pinning and keeping contact that the forearm and elbow allow. Most of those are quite advanced apps. Realistically they should only be used by advanced practitioners. It sounds like you are making very good use of them. Also notable is most often what we are referring to here would seem to break the "rules" or physics however if you get it right (a rare thing) then you earn the right to break the rules yet somehow staying on pt.

[mikal250]

ignorance is someone thinking their way is the only way. there are many ways to get to 7. 5+2, 6+1, and 4+3 does not mean a person using 8-1 to get to 7 is wrong. my Sifu Phu pham in combat wing and Sifu Wong on youtube, also Sifu Gary Lam show how to use elbow so they are wrong also!

[heartslord]

A master is a master and should be respected. Just as acid burns our skin I suppose you could throw lye on it to counteract it and say it doesn't burn.

Here I've explained the physics of why it's a poor choice to use the elbow and you've not understood it.

I appreciate your dedication. Now look at the physics.

This discussion is: what are the consequences of using it against someone who knows better. It is a collapsed final technique. You can use it but it's still flawed, as I've explained

[mikal250]

elbow is a tool i use alot. it is up to the person to know when to use it! an opening is an opening!

[heartslord]

An opening is a good way to get destroyed due to ignorance. Ving Tsun physics means that the elbow is an end to your kung fu unless you fight someone who doesn't know better. No doubt you are good enough to overcome most people. So the reason for understanding such things may be moot to you however we study to understand what is practical.. and what is possible at master level understanding. I have several vids that help to understand why the elbow sucks and is easily defeated. thx.

[ffoecaf2006]

very skilful! Thanks for sharing!

[neomagnon]

thank you sifu tom chi for generously casting ving chun's principles and techniques in depth. i've no doubt you are very knowledgeble with your art and a good man.

[conflict34]

Great lecture. I've seen quite a few guys enjoying the the elbow. I've always felt they were cheap shots but tried to work through them. You actually gave me some insight on dealing with it. Thanks.

[d4mn4tion]

@theawakener7 i totally agree "Technique is one thing, fighting spirit and controlling adrenal response is another". (A.W.T.A. practitioner)

[hanktronic123]

I have some thoughts about using the elbow in Chi Sao... Each point you make in the video against using the elbow is a sound one. It is very risky and has no real follow up. There are only a few situations when it is appropriate and those are quite rare.

But what about for training purposes? Shouldn't we try to elbow each other so that we learn to defend against it?

[heartslord]

Great question. Students begin using elbow strikes on younger students at the time they've entered 3rd form and are misinterpreting use of the elbows in that form. Soon after they learn why they are not intended as strikes.

We really learn to defend against elbow strikes by learning not to become collapsed or cho kil as well as learning to defend that triangle in from of us from entry. The elbow is just one of many strikes that occurs when we don't. So yes, play with it but don't use it.

[hanktronic123]

SiSookGong Tom,

My name is Henry, we have met before a few times. My father and Sifu is David Robinson, disciple of Lee Moy Shan.

I want to thank you for posting all these videos. Having so much content available online not only gives people some insight into your practice but also creates an opportunity for great discussion.

[heartslord]

Great to hear from you! The best to you all!

[darrellriv]

@theawakener7 i agree

[heartslord]

part 3

You will be welcomed anytime you are in the area and can enjoy seeing this perspective and training in application. It will answer any questions you have,and after all, this stuff is endlessly enjoyable.

I know you'll be glad to find that this is highly effective, efficient and scientific and when you truly own the VT kung fu no thought is required in combat, it plays itself.

[heartslord]

part two

It's a valid concern to make sure we are turning out students who can really engage. For myself, most combat is a pleasant and fun activity. Still, in real combat where someone wants to do you harm it requires a serious response and, also good if one can protect oneself AND protect your attacker. It's better to see that neither of you gets hurt if you have that ability.. and if that's the way it's meant to work out. I don't have fear in a fight, just understanding of the odds n technq.

[heartslord]

I agree. There are a lot of players who don't understand combat and don't really learn to engage it well. Of course there are different levels of combat too. Most players will not be able to stand up to a cage fight though I wouldn't put up with one. If I can't avoid someone like that whose technique may not be great but who is made of steel and fire, I'd have to use deadly force as I'm not a punching bag.

It takes a lot of skill to successfully and repeatedly prevail with great fighters. And.

[wingchunner02]

Thank you for your informative training videos on youtube. I have gained more insight into the art of wc as a whole. This was a really good one.

[Madloki35]

OOOOOOOOHHHHHHHH and then he hits me!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL....I love that part. Great teaching of applied physics as always.

[heartslord]

aw shucks! ;-)

[thechicat]

Too bad you're not in Chicago, I'd love to attend your class, excellent!

[heartslord]

All is not lost. Just like Mike who recently opened a branch school in Honduras where he lives, he has travelled here and a teaching brother is next going there is March.

You can come 4 times per year and also an instructor or myself can come to you. That is, if you really want the greatest application kung fu.

I am always happy to have enthusiastic dedicated students who will teach & share this amazing physics with others & keep it alive, hopefully forever!

;-)

p.s. I'm in chicago June 5

[opticannon]

sometimes i find that the elbow happens very quickly and is prompted by a compromised structure on my part during chi sau while it is not stationary. in that case i have found myself shifting like chum kiu ( as i have seen moy yat advocate himself but, it was to the outer gate ). as far as having someone on the outter gate of your elbow? i just pull it back into chamber like chum kiu and what siu nim tau teaches us to do in the basic stance.

[heartslord]

Opti I know you have great kung fu.

The times when we turn or shift are when we are responding to the opponents movement and energy direction. We can't ever do it just because we would like to. This kung fu plays itself by what we program into the body. Of course we never want to become cho kil or collapsed for an opp to get us in a bad position. If so, we don't want to chamber the arm because that means loss of contact and vulnerability. have to use another move. 3rd form has it all.

[opticannon]

the chamber is momentarily used but promptly fired back on to center line; seeking rather. it came naturally to me and thats why i offered the response for you to try. not to mention its in chum kiu and i find that most of the form thats stored in our cache mem. is localized for convenience and efficiencey. it was an emergencey impulse thing...; ) thank you for the compliment though. i must visit soon as i do so enjoy your vids.

[heartslord]

my pleasure. and as courtesy I will not kill you during chi sao when you chamber leaving yourself wide open. In return you perhaps will return the favor if I do something stupid.

cya.

[opticannon]

thats....odd to say. either way i wont plan on it if it occurs naturally; id be looking too good to notice.

[heartslord]

;-)

[4thwingchun]

sifu tom i wana no where ur school is located or w.e i wana learn wing chun i no a little bit but i wana learn more

[heartslord]

We're in the Catskill Mountains of NY, USA. All are invited to visit and train.

[heartslord]

Wing Chun is most often considered to be the most effective close range fighting system. Of course any master from any system would get my respect.

[WTKSB1987]

Do you have applications against other systems or styles? In our system we also have ranges and would not use the elbow unless we are in very close.

[heartslord]

Thanks Jangear,

Grandmaster Moy Yat was with Yip Man for fifteen years, then taught in New York until his passing in 2001. He was remarkable and is the Sifu of a number of kung fu masters. I was brought to him in the early eighties by Master Robert Smith, a genius who never gave up on my "kung fu" Hahaa.

As to chi sai techs on video, I'm contributing here for free!

Do visit the school here you will take a lot of kung fu home with you.

I invite you all to train here and open schools.

[jangear]

Sifu Tom what dos Moy Yat means?..

also would u be willing to make video on chi sao techniques. on all the fighting secrets to sale?..

regards

j

[heartslord]

We now have a video response from a Sifu who likes to use the elbow for striking.

Let's not ignore the point of the video. If the opponent has any wing chun capability then the elbow strike would allow the elbow person to be turned and discarded.

It's that simple. The elbow is a lower level kung fu app per how physics of wc work so thanks for the example of what not to do. A tip, WATCH and understand the videos!

This is simple third form technique.

[heartslord]

Thats it on the comments. Enjoy!

[heartslord]

No harm taken. The bong use here is inconsequential and we're playing things pretty loose to make the point about the elbow. The elbow by the way, SUCKS as a "technique". It allows no follow up. That's why I say it's not VT/WC. If you use it and don't finish the opponent he will destroy you by turning you off and you have NO Vt recovery technique, only bullshit makeup stuff. So everyone please be advised, if you want to use it do so. I recommend you watch the video until you get it. :-)

[jingliksao]

you are correct, and elbow users are right as well , knowing when to and not to is something different. the structure you and your student are using is collapsed from the beginning. the bong is to high, only for midsection attacks, the wrist should be lower than the elbow, elbow lower than the shoulder. if the elbow of the bong is higher than shoulder,when contact with the bong is made it puts to much stress on the shoulder. if the bong is outside of the square it is also incorrect. No Harm int

[heartslord]

chisau is fighting, broken down into trainable intertwined exercises. Feel free to use elbows. The video is quite clear. Elbows are a short-circuit in an advanced application. you CAN use them. You can also tie one hand behind your back and win a fight too. This aint rocket science but.. it IS science. thanks for the comment! best wishes,

Sifu Tom Chi

[1mindful1]

SO are you sayingthe elbow is useless in chi sau? Or in fighting?

[heartslord]

Great comment. The nature of chi sao is that once a connection is made with the opponent ALL information is available. It's that simple. The elbow is no surprise at all and easy to defeat. Having trained Tai Chi Chuan since 1980 as well as extensive Shaolin training, I am indeed full of hot air. I mean, this is very simple VT physics. I invite all aspiring VT students to make periodic visits and begin training as well as to open Moy Yat VT schools. You will learn how to sense chi in new ways!

[GungFuMan777]

...the wrist. So the elbow striker should also be able to counter the finger jab. This is where chi sensing comes in to know the instant something changes something up and adjust instantly...hopefully, lol.

Thanks for the video Sifu.

[GungFuMan777]

Of course the interception of the elbow strike is presuming that one's sensing is up to the task of being able to reaction in time to the elbow strike. In internal Chi Sao such as done more in Tai chi or advanced Shaolin, to remain softer then strike out without warning the opponent makes this far harder to detect. If he threw an elbow and you went to finger jab to the throat, if his sensing is strong enough, he would be able to change from the elbow to redirect your jab since your touching at..

[narayanr]

Thank you; although there is a part in the vid where you say that a certain shifting, double lan sao-type, counter-elbow strike is NOT Ving Tsun.

I'm sorry sir; but I have to disagree with you here.

Ving Tsun, Wing Tzun, Wing Tsun, Vinh Xuan, etc., etc., etc., or however a person chooses to spell it is an endless system with infinite variations of technique delivery.

Wing Chun is only limited by its practitioners particular skill level.

[heartslord]

Very good points, thank you. My comment is meant to explain that the elbow is not GOOD wing chun. One may do the Hokey Pokey during an exchange but that too may not be good wing chun. Still, you put your left foot in, you put your left foot out, shake it all about etc. Do the Hokey Pokey, and turn yourself around (oops, that part isnt good wing chun either).

Seriously, I hope that clears it up. Thanks and keep the comments coming. Best wishes, Sifu Tom Chi

[moungfu]

Tom thanks for sharing this true insight to the art.

[Yipsforfun]

Sorry comment ran out of characters. To finish i agree with you - elbows are for Biu Je and up players. Those who are just starting into the world of Chi Sau need to let go of striking with elbows to learn structure and proper application.

Loved your story about working with horses and utilizing chi gerk when we had the seminar in NYC. Thanks for propagating the kung-fu life to the youtube world :)

[Yipsforfun]

As a person who utilizes elbows constantly, i agree and disagree at times. I always see Chi Sau as so give & take that to say using an elbow is "Wrong" seems off to me. Many styles focus on elbows, so by using them we allow our counter part to train against the use of an elbow. Sun Tzu states "If you know the enemy and know yourself you need not fear the results of a hundred battles."

But i agree, when you give up doi yeng you give up our principle of facing and hand equality.

[heartslord]

p.s. I hope to rehabilitate you from using elbows "constantly" to never, ever! You may beat me in chi sao... but it won't be with an elbow!!!!!!!!!!!! :-)

[Elfrania]

Thank you Shifu Tom Chi, for your cordial sharing and teachings.

[heartslord]

my thanks to you all!

[Propellor]

physics are physics,...yes you presume too much. You presume that your opponent would cup jarn you out of the blue. Well that is silly, obviously your dummy demo partner does so to make the demo somewhat smoother. On top of that he does not control your right hand with his left hand and thus you can do your funny techniques. At the end of your video you explain the "appropriate" use of the biu jee elbow but all you show is a regular bong sau changing to fak sau.

[heartslord]

This instructional vid doesn't actually presume an attack. Rather it explains one expression of the kung fu and how to both avoid using it and how to counter it.

At the end, what is shown is a bil jee movement which may also be used as a strike. One may choose to fold in their bong sau and use this tech from 3rd form as long as the collapsing bong is not because one is cho kil. 

This is but one tech however, I see tons of VT players use it and it is not the best by a long shot. thanks.

[dhorse7]

your right. if you have to use an elbow then you have made a mistake somewhere. and the elbow isn't just an elbow which most ppl don't understand. it also has all kind of vectors behind it. it has a bill jee pivot and a chum kiu pivot. as well as coming down alomst vertical.

in chi sau the elbow doesn't actuall reach opponent. if you do use it should be more of a trapping motion.

[Propellor]

agree that elbow in chi sau is (effective) trapping motion / technique. Disagree that one only has to elbow to compensate mistake. It can also be the case that you stablish a dominant position probably also by closing in and thus the elbows are better striking tools.

In short: the master uses elbows at will, both defensive and offensive at right distance of course.

[heartslord]

I guess there is more than one perspective. I feel the video proves the point. I do though, respect your thinking and others. Thanks for contributing.

tom chi

[heartslord]

I'm always amazed when people agree with me on the opposite of my point. Elbows are not for trapping. They are not for striking. In short, the Master must watch the video to determine what it is about. Prop, hope you don't mind my joking a bit...about the truth!

Sifu Tom Chi

[prchdaword]

at 3:09 can't he come up with a biu sao since his elbow is pinned?

[heartslord]

Good question. He has lost the center & as you say, pinned. He would not live to play another day. That's the point of the video. Ving Tsun intends to teach how to maintain absolute control for devastating efffect. His best hope is to do a spinning backfist and have his brainstem decimated before he achieves it. Theoretically :-)

So again, the physics of VT shows us how not to end up in a bad situation, to never pull or turn away. To be able to fight with your eyes closed, & love it!

[prchdaword]

but in the biu gee form, after the cup jarn, the tan sao biu that shoots out is intended to come from underneath the elbow so that if you elbow is pinned (emergency situation), you are able to shoot out and come up under their pin to them lap and strike with a wang jeung (high side palm)?

[heartslord]

You'd think so. Hopefully though, it's clear that in the 3rd form, the elbow is not used as a strike.

Yours I believe is a separate question. Without becoming chokil or collapsed, the bong transitions for a proper response as you suggest. That response is not available once you have been turned away & for VT purposes, completely disabled.

It is definitely the action to take while it will still work. So, you are right to use the bil sau but only prior to being bitch turned. thanx!

[mrjack001]

I try to find as many uses for the elbow as possible, Chi Sau helps you assess which ones work and which ones need tweaking. Careless of the elbow is a quick way to bust a training partner's mouth!

[heartslord]

with a better training partner you won't get anywhere near the mouth with an elbow. I hear thoughtful comments from educated gentlemen like yourself however nothing that controverts the points of the video... which establishes that the elbow is the choice of 3rd form level students.. and apparently some other thoughtful people. Great input though and worth discussing. Thanks

[rsvingtsun]

the one thing I agree is to not use the elbow as the first means of stricking. Any Instructor like me will agree on that, however, I would not advice to discard such strong weapon. Evrything you said only works on someone with minimum experience. Someone like you or me, will use them last. An elbow well used could go thru any block. Work with you high rank students ramdom chisao on camera, let them use on you anything they got, then , talk to me about the elbow.

[heartslord]

Excellent comment! I will have to disagree though about the elbow crushing through. I would not "block" an elbow but redirect it, taking and keeping the center. After 26 years I've played chisau, sparred and actual street combat enough to say that for me, it's a deadend technique and not one that works on me. Of course it works on some students, however for you and I, we can cause anything that we wish to work on our students and virtually everybody else! Thanks foryour thoughtful comment.

[rsvingtsun]

elbow is easy to deflect, reason why should be if anything, for some, third weapon of choice, like biu-je, last empty hand form. My name is Nelson Pina , I've been involved in ving Tsun for 15 years, but for 30 years in martial arts all toghether. iam from Orlando, Fl, if you are ever in this way, please, stop and visit. Like you, I'm from the Moy Yat family, third generation Yip Man Sifu, also, I've train extensively with kung-fu brothers from the IP Chin Family. It is a pleasure to meet you

[heartslord]

Greetings Nelson, a pleasure!

I hope one day we'll meet.

[heartslord]

Please note that chisau is a means to an end. It is why VT is known for blindfolded fighting as the chisau tells the hands to go, faster than one might actively think movements and with a precision that becomes difficult to overcome. By the way, anyone in NY who would like to visit the school for practical examples of these concepts we are happy to respectfully welcome you. Ultimately we are all one family.

[FamilyQuan]

What's the point in discarding valid, useful techniques just because they don't conform to some set of rules? Just change the style so that you can twist an elbow in. What matters more - practical use, or the style?

In practice, it's not likely that you'll be playing chi sao - so why train specifically "for" chi sao, rather than use chi sao to train you "for" a more realistic encounter?

I just don't think you're right, I'm afraid. Elbows are very useful.

[heartslord]

Thank you. Great points! This is a stage of VT training to imbibe excellent fighting physics. One principle of VT is both hands always available also protecting the center. The elbow works, just not on me. It's fine for most situations but VT is supposed to train you for beyond simple street combat. I've done TONS of that (not by choice) when I was younger. When you own the chisau and beyond, it plays itself. I see Masters using elbows. But if countered, it creates a BIG disadvantage. Thanks!

[mrjack001]

I don't think he's questioning that fact. But there are "right" and "wrong" ways of using the elbow to strike with, if you go for an elbow strike, without setting it up (or it being set up for you) and it's countered, you're put in a very bad position!

2.03-2.15 - Closest weapon, closest target

[heartslord]

No right way for me (though it's easy to use). In the Hung Gar 25 years ago I trained elbows extensively. There is a punching set that is fabulous with every kind of punch and elbow imaginable such as hanging punch/elbow, backnuckle, roundhouse and so on. Great exercise and deadly if a trained elbow comes your way. Still, for me, it blows the WC/VT concept of not being chokil (collapsed) and centerline theory (not being "turned off"). You can't use an elbow without doing both.

[moungfu]

very good explanation. thank you.

[heartslord]

thank you. hoping to post more. enjoy!