Twirch Ringen (Updated)

[LutzDerLurch]

Might I ask what the Music Piece played is?

[eisbombenhagel]

@LutzDerLurch That should be "stella splendens" from the 14th century, but I could be wrong. But I can't tell who is performing it.

[LutzDerLurch]

@eisbombenhagel Thank you very much.

[Andrhens]

As far as i know, the ringen section in Codex Wallerstein shows some defenses against punches. Do you guys plan on posting them in a video?

By the way, excellent demonstration of ringen!

[battletank5000]

I'm impressed with this video, well done! i would like to ask however, if given the opportunity could these still be used today in someway or another?

[USER114145]

Also, in the first counter, you make a throw, I find absolutely no mention of a throw in the codex. The seccond counter does seem to fit with the text. Still, nice video. Verry inspiring.

[USER114145]

Nice vid. In the first move I see you using your shoulder to propell you adversary into the throw. Yet I see no mention of shoulderwork in the codex. There it stated that the enemy is to be pushed backwards. Yet this does look practical. This asks for some experimenting...

[3r4s3r666]

Very nice work you have done there. Do you also look at the techniques from Fabian von Auerswalds Ringerkunst? Or is your only/main focus on Codex Wallerstein?

[kaindrg]

whats the difference between taholffer codex wallerstein and paulus hector mair?

[ModernGermanWarfare]

germany = hardcore

[Dragonfist12185]

This would had help imperial germany during the first world war. "No offence Germany"

[Weihekrieger]

This demo's much better than the outdated version, excellent progress! If I might offer a suggestion, try taking a deeper stance when stepping into the Waag & turning in the horizontal stances.

I really love the music on this video, it calls to mind the scenes inside Thulsa Doom's mountain in Conan the Barbarian. What is it?

[ChishioAme]

I envy how easily you guys can take a knee. In all seriousness, though, I'm rather impressed (and continue to be every time I've watched this video) that each play begins with a shoulder grab, something every tough guy out there would try to get you to do what he wanted, making it very... Applicable to today's world still.

[Tovash]

hmmm i like the look of this, ive had some expeirance in akido and judo and i can see a lot of similarities. what kind of unarmed strikes did the old masters use would love to see a vid on the techniques (striking) that they used back then and how they compare to styles like karate/taekwondo or kung fu and to see if the trappings they did were similar to wing chun/eskrima or if they were differant. good vid guys

[eudsonamx]

You have a good martial art. Don't is needed BJJ. All peoples create your martial art to respond to your problems. The enphasis to the BJJ, MMA have did to forget the native martial arts in very country. To give importance the native martial arts is necessary against hegemony of BJJ and MMA.

[bidibum]

really well done, no doubt.

[Grappler1911]

You guys kick ass.Very skilled.I studied the same manuals and took bouncing jobs at the roughest clubs I could find to get practice for real and get paid for it.One thing I learned in hundreds of real fights is never to use my hand if I could use my elbow.The human head is like concrete and when people are in a rage and drunk you could easily break your hand and still have an enraged person or three to deal with.The elbow will generate much more power as well and you can work tommorow.Take care.

[AkatsukiPR0]

I see you doing a lot of open handed strikes, is that in the Codex Wallerstein or is that your own?

[MEMAG]

@AkatsukiPR0 Codex Wallerstein shows many such strikes, but not explicitly in every instance that we show them in the video.

[WitheringintheDark]

@MEMAG

Forgive me if i'm wrong, but it was my understanding that these techniques would typically end with a fatal dagger strike after taking the opponent to the ground. Are the 'open handed strikes' as akatsuki describes meant to have been used after drawing a dagger to finish him off?

[WahrerDrache]

Like it !!! :)

[ghurabalbayn]

it reminds of aikido here and there. very nice!

[johjoz]

Great work. @Gunyo.The edge of hand (shuto) was used. For example it is used in Wallerstein plate142.

[cimberius]

EPIC MUSIC great video guys

[Kyuudousha]

Great stuff, looks good and really clear and well-presented video! I'd be really interested to see how freeplay would go with these techniqes...

[Vondanzigkungfu]

Nice video.

I do not agree with all the interpretations and your movments seem a bit robotic and choppy, but this is probably intentional for clarity of demonstration. However I think it is great that more and more groups are seriously practicing ringen, as the sources make it clear that it is the fundamental martial art. Many get to excited about the shiny sword stuff and forget about the rest.

Oh, and what's up with the knife hand strike to the neck after the end of each throw? :):)

[Gunyo]

Dear MEMAG,

Was the sword hand (shuto uchi in Japanese) used historically in Ringen?

I have no real knowledge of German martial arts, only Classical Japanese martial arts.

I just thought it interesting that shuto-uchi was used as a finish in a lot of these techniques demonstrated were very similar to what is done in both modern and classical budo.

Thanks in advance.

[Samadhi92]

very nice, compliments!

[ServantOfYah]

Awesome!! I have the manual, but that's the first time I've seen the moves in action.  Keep up the good work. It's nice to see the midevil martial arts start to reemerge.

[jollybird66]

thanks for making this guys. i would like to see the two of you go at it full speed in order to test the applicability of the techniques. i have skepticism for most of them, except for the arm break at 1:35 and the sun pointer at 5:19.

[odium131]

technique at 1:03 looks like a judo technique look for uchimata

[Folhasful]

Well, it shouldn't be that surprising for two martial arts that are heavily based on grappling and throws to have two similar techniques. Both of them simply figured out a good similar way to do what they're supposed to do.

[hkdharmon]

Nice work. These look very similar to the Danzan Ryu Jujitsu that I study.

[Marxbruder505]

Actually, I find it to be very, very easy. I teach it to my new students as one of their first throwing techniques/counters (yes it can be used aggressively as an initial throw instead of as a counter). I've actually considered leaving it 'till later in training because it's one of those techniques that can form a dependency. Students learn it and apply it in their first day of free-wrestling, and suddenly I find myself trying to get them to use something else once in a while.

[AlbertSergei]

The music is awesome. What's it called?

[Marxbruder505]

You guys are impressive. Cleared up a few things I didn't get, especially about a couple of those entrances. Thanks.

[jackatalon]

exelant

[wonderboy2402]

Watching this really does strike home, that the european martial arts were just as rich as the far east.

If anything, I would like to see these used more often say in films, because they really are different but nevertheless impressive.

[Folhasful]

Indeed, it is a shame that so much information concerning European historical martial arts was lost along the centuries. Still, it is great to see that some people are working to bring them back as well.

[LutzDerLurch]

@wonderboy2402 I am afraid, Hollywood will never use them, or the very elegant an lightning fast, intelligent fencing techniques of the medieval times. At least not before the general idea, that only eastern cultures had sophisticated martial arts and weapons, has lost its general acceptance.

[heavyarms01h]

Well, I sure hope it loses its general acceptance sooner or later, because it's a very prejudiced and disgusting idea. I'm an Asian kid who grew up in America, and because the HEMA aren't as well-known or publicized as Asian martial arts and because of the media portrayal of medieval combat, I grew up being very ignorant of medieval European fighting styles; it seemed like it was just brute force on the screen.

Eventually I figured that it couldn't have been, and then I learned about this. =D

[LutzDerLurch]

@heavyarms01h :)

[heavyarms01h]

It would help give people a better, more accurate impression of Medieval fighting styles, and hopefully help to drum up interest - and more students - in the classical European martial arts that will help keep the revival and reconstruction of these art forms going.

(I'm an Asian-American and learned of these arts by accident a few years ago. I'd known that it just wasn't logical that the Europeans hadn't developed some kind of highly effective art - or nobody would have survived the wars!)

[eisbombenhagel]

@wonderboy2402 Actually they are not different at all! Just compare some moves of the Codex Wallerstein with – let's say – the Okinawa Bubishi and you'll notice *a lot* of similarities. Which would be totally logical if you take into account that human anatomy stays the same around the globe. But martials arts "change" beyond recognition when the purpose doesn't exist anymore, followed by turning into a dead art or sports.

[cvbpo]

love your vid very good hope to see much more

oh and for every one bleow no matter what art you learn or use in any part of the world it all comes down to the fighter and there skill not the art

[wharghoul]

wow, a lot of this looks really similar to judo.

i guess this just shows that really, there are so many techniques that work, and given enough time, anyone will figure them out.

[JohnRaptor]

Very true. Body mechanics are the same everywhere, so you find a lot of very similar techniques in the wrestling styles of every culture.

[GuamKomudo]

Yeah, because in Japan, the Samurai had a style called Jujitsu, which was throwing people on the ground and doing a lock or stab with a knife. But it looks VERY similar to this. Because you can't really punch or kick someone in armor, but you can close in and throw them on the ground and finish them. The more I research European fighting styles, the more I see all the people are pretty much the same. This is what works on battle field with armor, and everyone found it out lol

[heavyarms01h]

If this is what we could have expected armored German Knights to have practiced, then I'm not surprised that the techniques would look similar to Judo.

Medieval Knights would have been in the same situation as the Japanese Samurai: you're unarmored and your opponent's coming at you. You need to take them down and disable them, but punching and kicking an armored opponent won't be very effective so you use leverage/gravity instead.

It's a lot like the idea of "convergent evolution" in biology.

[heavyarms01h]

Whoops, I meant "unarmed," not "unarmored." Sorry!

[wharghoul]

@heavyarms01h Yeah, like I was saying, there are so only techniques that actually work. Given enough time to weed out the bullshit, eventually all martial arts reach the same conclusions.

Look at the very young sport of MMA. Previously, you saw guys doing all sots of crazy stuff in the ring, but as time goes on, the things that are most effective have come to the forefront, and the styles have become much more homogenized.

[teslic100]

@wharghoul Most martial arts techniques learned for a street fight or a battle are banned in MMA. Martial arts and combat sports are two different things.

[wharghoul]

@teslic100 That will be of little consolation when I draw the knife you never knew I had and perform a vivisection on you.

[kaindrg]

@wharghoul so not many mma guys can defend against knife either. in the same book these guys are drawing from there are plenty of knife defense becasues in germany at the time stabbing was the most common becasue everyone trained in fighting was also carrying knives hence they havea section called knife wrestling. mma is the reduced fighitng to adapt to the 30-40 rules they impose.

[louissamuel1]

@wharghoul It does look similar to judo except that judo relies a lot on grabbing the opponent's clothes. Many judo moves need to be adapted to be useful against someone in a T-shirt or bare chested. It also seems to me that judo relies a lot more on first pulling or pushing the opponent off balance and then executing the technique. These techniques seem to rely on positioning your body in a certain way and then applying brute strength.

[HistoryValkyrie]

I absolutely love your video. Excellent interperatations of the pictures. Nice music as well, where can I find it?

[enzaone86]

Good Twirch training.

[Mananandata]

Nice interpretations!

[Chalkzwo]

they key of martial arts is to know on to know how far jonts can be bend, and what they cant do. the most simple and most effective training is to play "sticky hands/feets" youll soon learn where the limits

[FirstBurns]

I love these European Martial Arts, and I would love to do this, but the closest school where they do this is about 170km's away. :S Still love watching these films on youtube. :D

[Attilahollo9]

Why should be the European any different from the Asian fighting techniques? Every human has two legs, two arms, and a head. Until this changes there will be no new ways of using our body with weapon or without weapon..

[LutzDerLurch]

I agree, I think easter martial arts a vastly overestimated and only few people know about the rich european/western martial arts culture.

[seiji42]

But the people of ainchent euroup and asia was very different, for example the asians have alot easier to jump around and do more flexible stuff, while the europeans had it easier to build musclemass. This is not some racist shit that europeans are stronger that asians, it's simply different folks evolving differently.

[bb2009ut]

Some people need to master the art of Kampfringen and bring it into the MMA world.

[cerkuenik]

When you guys are going to write a book about ringen? =D

Great video!

[VegaEtereo]

Excellent! *****

[tyroneart]

Very nice! The best German martial arts video I've seen so far. Keep up the good work on Ringen!

[MEMAG]

Thank you!

[drake919]

Outstanding! The slow-motion repeat of the plays *really* helps. Thank you for your hard work.

[MEMAG]

Thanks!

[porizkovabasta]

it is really better than outdated. This looks useable :-) Thanks

[MEMAG]

Thank you!

[porizkovabasta]

stream. cz /video/5/169627-zoldaci-video-­4

[porizkovabasta]

stream. cz /video/68238-zoldaci-video1 and is little bit different style of fencing :-)

[Gaudemus0igitur]

For the posters who ask why there are so many open-handed blows. Just like in classic Budo this moves would be used in serious struggles, often with armor. Just like European knights learned only Ringen and not Boxing, the Samurai would concentrate on grappling because armor makes the usual punches quite useless. In battle the open hand would draw a dagger when the enemy was down and controlled, and well you get the idea....

[Gaudemus0igitur]

Looks much more energetic and rapid compared to the first one. One of the best overall videos on Zwerchringen in the whole community as far as I know.

Note also how almost all moves finish with an attack which could be easily executed with a quickley drawn knife - a grim end on many a battlefield and street in medieval Europe.

[MEMAG]

Thanks!

[roeyrboat]

Very nice video and kudos for the obvious knowledge/research on the subject. Even though in modern clothing, the similarity between both demonstrators in regard to their modern clothing and their general appearance makes the video appear very well thought through. Wish there was more period western martial art videos out there on the net of a similar caliber.

[MEMAG]

Thank you very much!

[Djemps]

By the way, how would you pronounce Twich? I'm thinking .. tversh?

[MEMAG]

Twirch is just a variation of the word Zwerch, and since the letter Z is pronounced as "ts" in German, they sound very similar.

[Djemps]

I KNEW it!

[MEMAG]

Yes, that one is scary to do. You see the world spin around in a blur before your eyes, and if you don't stay ahead of the pain you get a kind of sick feeling in your neck.

[wassil47]

great, now i can't wait till friday to try it out.. :)

good job, it's quite difficult to get ringen materials

[MEMAG]

Thanks! Be sure to practice safely!

[chreberle]

Very good. You do great work in the new world. Greetings and respect from Germany.

[MEMAG]

Thank you!

[DragonnSlayerr]

i dont get the through at 4:13 at all

the "judo chop" (im playing) at the end of every move doesnt seem very western

its awesome that you guys are doing this.

[MEMAG]

Thanks. I'm not sure what you don't get about that throw. It works very well and hurts more than it appears.

There are about twice as many open-handed blows as closed-handed blows in Codex Wallerstein. These types of strikes are not just an Eastern thing.

[DragonnSlayerr]

cool.

[JohnRaptor]

Very interesting. I was a little confused about that while watching the video. I had no idea the European martial arts included that kind of technique.

[LordEinar]

Nice job as usual, though you mention "fencer" at the end instead of grappler this time ;)

One question though, how "complete" is the piece after an open handed blow? I've not been on the receiving end of those, so I don't know how much power you can generate at the impact site.

M.

[MEMAG]

Thanks. I've been knocked out with an open-handed blow to the back of the head before, they generate plenty of power.

[Djemps]

Think of it this way. The open handed strike is the same as a 'Hammer Fist' without closing your fingers. Since you aren't supposed to strike with any of your fingers anyhow there isn't much difference. Ouch!

[VikingWannaBe51887]

who is the music by?

[MEMAG]

Its from "Sinners and Saints: The Ultimate Medieval and Renaissance Music Collection"

[JohnRaptor]

I was wondering that too. Thanks!

[Djemps]

I was wondering where this went to! Where should I notice the changes? :-)

[MEMAG]

The whole thing! We changed the orientation of many of the throws to better fit the definition of "Twirch" and generally cleaned up the rest.