3:30 Well, Stephanie, you just answered your own question: christmas trees, presents, and eggnog, and lights, and most carols, have nothing to do with the birth of Jesus. Frankly, even if I were a rabid, frothing-at-the-mouth Atheist instead of the agnostic atheist I am, there's no point in getting angry about Christmas because there's so little about it that even is christian in the first place.
The early church here in norway wantet the long midwinter tradition of "Jul" to be named Christ-Masse (or "krist messe" in norwegian). It didn't catch on so even christians her in norway call it Jul. God Jul from Norway
@cdickenson64 Making it religious to the Pagans (, witch is a very broad term. Paganism (from Latin paganus, meaning "country dweller", "rustic") is a blanket term, typically used to refer to non-Abrahamic, indigenous polytheistic religious traditions.)
Poor little girl. She's as brainwashed by her parents as she thinks Muslim kids are....I have hope for her, though. I was raised very religiously and I just simply thought for myself instead of my parents. Voila...no god that I would swear by at all.
I feel sorry for kids like her. I had a catholic upbringing and even went to catholic school, but my parents weren't fundies and weren't trying to fight a war against atheism, they had me in Catholic school simply because the public elementary school wasn't up to the standards of the Catholic elementary school. I couldn't imagine growing up with Jezusfreek777 as my father.
@christo930 one flaw i found with a catholic school, was because you need to at least be christian to have a better chance of selection, it means, if your not one to naturally be outgoing by yourself it can narrow your exposure early on during those crucuial yars of high school, when your REALLY learning the nances of social contact and things like religion start to be maybe better understood. and this means meeting muslims for example you dont really know how to act because its so different etc
@elgostine I don't think I would worry so much about that. My mother was a devout catholic and was actually in the process of becoming a nun when she met my father who was an atheist (but I never knew it until I came out to my family). The main good thing about catholic school is that all the kids who's parents think school is a babysitting service aren't there to interrupt class and the ill behaved get expelled into the public school system. If you live in a big city, catholic school is a must.
@christo930 Catholic "school" is where you send your kids if you want them to handed a diploma without competing for it (assuming they're rich and fit narrow Catholic view of a good person) if you want them to get an education, send them to a public school, preferably one without teachers that subscribe to silly bigoted superstitions.
@Douglas1102 You're joking, right? Catholic schools provide an excellent education and they do it at 1/2 the cost. Catholic schools archdiocese consistently outperform the local schools. Catholicism doesn't endorse YEC and spend very little time on religion. The Catholic school system in the US is outstanding and if you don't want to send your kid into a hellhole of a public school, you send them to catholic school. My Catholic elementary school even had Jewish kids in it.
@christo930 I never joke about education. There is no evidence at all the that Catholic Schools outperform secular schools, this is just Catholic arrogance. In the closest city I live (Greater Toronto Area) six different schools were caught cheating on standardized tests (teachers actually giving the answers) ALL were Faith schools and four were Catholic. This is practically policy because religious teachers HATE standardized testing 'cause it prevents them from being bias.
@Douglas1102 Standardized testing is stupid and doesn't show if kids learned anything or not and it forces teachers to prepare children to pass the standardized test. I have met quite a few teachers and none of them like standardized tests. I can speak for the whole country, but the public school I would have had to attend for elementary school was horrible because it was right at a border between a ghetto and a working class neighborhood and I would have been forced into a school of ghetto kids
@christo930 You come to philly I and will put you in a district and ask you where you want your kid in school. The public school was dangerous. In 81 when I graduated from elementary school we moved out of that section of philly into a much better section and I went to public school and they were behind. I was in the top class and slept through 7th and 8th grade because I already knew the material.
@christo930 Sure you were in the top of the class... if you were at the "top of the class" you likely wouldn't base your arguments on some unverifiable personal anecdote.
@christo930 I already told you why religious teachers hate standardized testing and it's no surprise that you share this view... after all you couldn't even compete with "ghetto kids". Standardized tests eliminate teacher bias and it's no surprise you wouldn't want that.
@Douglas1102 No, it was my personal safety. Tell you what, look up Clara Barton elementary school in philadelphia and ask yourself if you would put YOUR kid in that school. Look, I get why you don't like Catholicism, I don't like it either, but the fact remains that Catholic schools are often the best choice available. My parents didn't have the money to send me to a wealthy school and didn't want me in Barton, and for good reasons. Standardized tests suck and give bad incentives to teachers.
@christo930 Catholicism most certainly does support YEC and the ONLY reason it isn't taught is because you couldn't get public funding for the school. The same goes for why there are Jewish kids in your school. It was only in 90s that this even started and to this day they are still allowed to discriminate against gays. This quote right off the board's web-page really says it all, "While our schools adhere to Ministry of Education requirements, we do so from a Catholic perspective."
@Douglas1102 No it doesn't. I was a Catholic for 38 years, I know it's central doctrines. I was taught evolution in Catholic elementary school, the vatican has made statements that evolution and a 4.5 billion year old earth do not in any way interfere with faith in Christ. I don't know about today, but in the 70's when I was in elementary school, they didn't get 1 dime in public funding, it was all through tuition and tithing.
No that is not what Catholics believe, anyone can easily verify this fact. The current Pope blamed Darwin for Hitler and disgustingly claims that he was not a devout Catholic. That is some seriously evil nonsense... it's right up there with holocaust denial.
Half the cost? That just goes along with my theory that whatever is almost exclusively proposed by Catholics can be reasonably assumed to not only be a lie but a lie to cover the truth, you know like "condoms cause aids". The fact is that if they were good schools they wouldn't outwardly promote superstition and bigotry. And why are public schools hell-holes anyway? The sole difference is that they aren't Catholic based, you likely learned that bigoted nonsense from Catholic school.
@Douglas1102 Unless you live in really big city like philadelphia, you just won't ever get it. The problem is even bigger in HS because there is bussing and the district is so large. You can live in middle class neighborhood and be in the district of a school that serves the ghetto as well. Catholic school is about 5k for the first kid and each addition kid is cheaper, public schools average 10k per kid. It's because they have no bureaucrats to mess everything up. Religion is only 1 class.
@christo930 You have understand the city. You can be in a solid middle class neighborhood, walk 8 blocks and be in a ghetto with abandoned houses everywhere with open air drug dealing etc. Everything is compressed in the big cities. You might go all your life without walking those 8 blocks, like it's a world away and you can easily end up sharing a school with that neighborhood.
@Douglas1102 Tell you what, why don't you send your children to a ghetto school. Send your kids somewhere were they have to stay in large groups to avoid being victimized, jumped, beat-up and robbed. THEN come and talk to me about division. I have nothing more to say to you, you're rude and you think you know everything about a place you have probably never been to, let alone lived in.
@christo930 I don't need lectures about being rude from someone who uses the term "ghetto" pejoratively towards kids and thinks religious based schools are the answer. Toronto has almost the same population as "Philly" and half the people weren't born in Canada so maybe you should rethink your views.
@Douglas1102 Look, kids only get 1 shot at an education. If you are faced with sending your child to a violent, poorly performing public school, or a private school that happens to be Catholic and who's students do very well in tests (it used to be the STS test when I was in elementary school) and is in the opposite physical direction of the bad neighborhood, it only makes sense to do it. My parents didn't want to make martyrs of my siblings and I. Look up C. Barton school in philadelphia.
@christo930 Don't forget that 6 years of Catholic school did nothing to prevent me from becoming an atheist. Private, non-religious schools weren't in the area, my family was Catholic and it was a good school and I have (mostly) fond memories of going to that school. It's easy to condemn others when you aren't in the same position. Maybe your local school was a good one and it wasn't an issue, but my parents made the choice they thought was best.
@christo930 One other thing, it's easy to be all academic about "ghetto" kids when you get to view it from a distance. It becomes theoretical, a thought experiment. Not all ghetto kids are bad, but there was enough of them to make it a bad school. Ironically, I later met a friend who's cousin now works as a teacher at Barton school, and it's so bad they need armed security in an elementary school. These kids came from a neighborhood where violence was everywhere, wouldn't you protect your kids?
@christo930 I do want to add one caveat and that is I haven't spoken to that teacher(I lost contact with his cousin about 10 years ago) and apparently things got so bad that they completely restructured the school and it now only serves K-2nd grade. I sincerely hope that they have improved.
@christo930 Your costs are bullshit and one religious class is way too much, it's discriminatory and downright anti-education. How do you know that I don't know what the "big city"is like? Maybe if you didn't have a Catholic "education" you wouldn't make such stupid assumptions.
@Douglas1102 I didn't make that assumption, you told me outright a few posts ago that you don' live in a big city, nor do you even live in the united states. Toronto isn't Philadelphia and it certainly isn't North Philadelphia, one of the most dangerous neighborhoods in the united states.
"Why do you atheists celebrate Christmas .... putting up a tree and giving presents..." Which have absolutely NOTHING to do with the plagiarism of pagan Greek, Roman, Celtic and Norse traditions into the Greco-Romanized version of a Jewish "Messiah" figure that occurred in the Roman province of Judea approximately 2,000 years before present - 2,000 ybp...
For what it is worth, the way I have always seen it being Aussie; 'Happy Holidays' is about all the days that are grouped together not the one day. It means Happy Christmas, Happy Boxing Day, Happy New Year, Happy holidays - because kids get weeks and weeks and weeks off school (yay for them) and parents hopefully can cope with work and kids on holidays.
I suppose I am just sending a reminder to whoever will listen that internationally 'holidays = vacation' as much as holiday= specific day.
One of the most important part of Christianity is the management of information. I would find it very hard to believe that Stephanie would actually be allowed to view your response. But I enjoyed your response…
wow great vid I agree 100% as a jew I do not mind hearing an Xtian saying "merry christmas" to me. but why should I have to wish merry christmas to them? id say "Happy Chanukah" to everyone but I dont want to be a jerk and assume everyone does Chanukah
@elgostine And I'll restress that he was supposed to be the most important person in the history of the WORLD. No birth date, no physical description ,no contemporary image (painting or sculpture) no description of what he did during his life until about 30. Plus, although there were emininent scholars in Greek, Rome and China he never spoke to any of them. No contemporary accounts of him outside the bible which of course was not written while he was alive.
@lewisner and the idea of being able to personally communicater with your god
plus ideas empoering the disempowered etc would have been appealing to the more common folk too i guess, that and the fact that christianity has in its texs instructions to go out and get new members the cults of zeus, isis etc wernt like that as far as i knew they were morer like some churches are NOW, i.e just a place to gather at special days, place to hang out etc
@elgostine Yep, probably the biggest mistake Hindus Sikhs and Muslims made was not knocking on peoples doors trying to convert them like the Mormons do.
@lewisner what dio you mean, the forced conversions during muslim conquests during the medieval period are half the reason islam is the second or maybe even THE biggest religion by number of adherents
those same conquests also helped spark the crusades might i add.
@lewisner what dio you mean, the forced conversions during muslim conquests during the medieval period are half the reason islam is the second or maybe even THE biggest religion by number of adherents
those same conquests also helped spark the crusades might i add.
@lewisner@lewisner what dio you mean, the forced conversions during muslim conquests during the medieval period are half the reason islam is the second or maybe even THE biggest religion by number of adherents
those same conquests also helped spark the crusades might i add.
@WildwoodClaire1 yeah i figured that abit after i started pondering, and i guess its that christians actively went out of their way to attract new members would have helped its initial spreadand its rise in popularity.
that doesnt mean its the causeof the dark ages,... however it greatly slowed the recovery that, judging from the mycenean dark age etc would have laster 500-600 yearssad to say we would indeed maye have hovercars by now without it. *sigh*
because young lady people have been drinking and giving gifts to each other in late December long before Christianity. Christmas was shunned by the pilgrims who landed at Plymouth.
As a "Christian" (although I Hate religion...relationship with Jesus) I don't see anything you said to be incorrect. But I think the reason they were offended (They should have pointed out) is that non-religious groups are trying to take Christ out of Christmas or get rid of it completely...which they won't....that's not their holiday so they shouldn't have even tried. Christmas is the holiday that ppl hate, we aren't doing anything equivalent. So some just misinterpret it as offensive
I think you should have mentioned Saturnalia. I'll bet daddy would LOVE to explain that one to his little girl. Or maybe the part about why Christmas was moved to a different date by an early Christian bishop because it coincided with a Roman orgy. Have fun with that one dad.
@PaulKJHarris actually it was the act of the Holy See, the Pope was the final arbiter on the establishment of the celebrationof Christmas onto the Winter Solstice. Same goes for "All Saint's Day" superceding the last night of Samhain (Sowen) which was celebrated for an entire month.
ASD was made to Nov 1 to counteract the "evil" pagan festival. Hence why Oct 31st became named All Hallows Eve (Hallow = Holy....Saints are about as holy as it gets), then butchered into "Halloween"
Part 3: I have been an Atheist for the past decade. To me, there is zero possibility of the existence of any of the God's. I miss the innocence of ignorance. I learned too much to believe in anything supernatural. I do not celebrate any of the holidays, but nor am I offended too any degree by the fact that 7 billion people believe differently than I do. If I am offended by anything, it is because I produced the feeling of 'offense' within my own mind. I am the only person who can offend me.
Part 2: Those that were offended by the statement "Happy Holiday's" were labeled 'Scrooges'. The buzz word of the season was 'Giving'. This included giving any extra money, clothing, and food to charities who helped the 'less fortunate' locally, nationally, and around the world. Many churches taught that we should celebrate His birth by being as much like Him as we possibly could be. This meant giving of ourselves, since He gave His life - duh.
The statement "Happy Holiday's" replaced "Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year." After WWII, the economy was booming, and most people were spending there yearly saving's during the 'holiday season' which encompassed three major religious and national holidays. During the 60's and 70's, the holiday season became the 'shopping season'. Instead of telling each customer - Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year - tellers were instructed to say - Happy Holidays - due to the long lines.
I recently made a video concerning her last question about atheists celebrating Christmas (which I do) And my answer to her question boils down to the fact that I don't view it as a religious holiday, I view it as a family holiday, and I treat it as such
@Oddsocket well, I'm NOT going to beat up on a kid, and given her parental guidance, it is hardly surprising that she has been misinformed concerning the reason why businesses often say "Happy Holidays."
Most people don't even listen to the responses of others at this time of year. Every now and then when I am in a mischievous mood, I will respond to someone who says "merry Christmas" with, "and a hairy mistress to you too". People rarely catch on to what I said.
Atheist too and I say Happy Christmas. Doesn't even register as a religious thing with me anymore.To me it means have a happy get drunk with family and friends, eat too much and exchange gifts day. I don't think people even say 'happy holidays' in Ireland....Nollaig Shona agus an Bhliain Nua Sásta!
I am Wiccan and I celebrate Yule with my friends each year. I was surprised this year when I had several of my Atheist friends left me "Happy Yule" messages on Skype and Facebook. My in-laws are becoming more accepting of this. My daughter is reading about Wicca just so she can understand more about a part of me that she was seldom exposed to.I live in The Bible Belt where you can actually be assaulted for saying "Happy Holidays." But I do respect everyone's right to celebrate their holiday
@kelliko70 Well I applaud your attempts to include your friends in your celebrations even if they don't share your faith (I too am an athiest...but more specifically am agnostic athiest, so I basically there is room for my being wrong since I make no assertions).
I also think its too bad that being from the Bible Belt they simply don't realize the irony of the fact that practically all their deeply held "christian" traditions of the season are derived from ancient European religions.
I'm not really sure why this young lady's father wouldn't allow her to see this, there wasn't anything offensive about it and in fact I thought it was very classy of you MissClaire.
@WildwoodCaire I have a bloody HARD time here. I loath religions and I am a atheist. Used to be kinda R.C. though that never had to do with a God, but with culture Everytime someone says "happy xmas" or even "happy hollidays" I HATE it. It feel it is fake enjoyment of religion, Mid winter stuff got nothing to do with my Atheism. Fine ppl enjoy themselves. But do not put it on me.
@JungleHyena I think you should lighten up sir, they mean you no harm by wishing well for you, and that is all Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays really is. Have a Happy New Year!
@JungleHyena Unknot your knickers. I don't do mythology, either, but I'm happy for the paid days off work. Some of my (and yours, I bet) are xtian. The children expect gifts. It has nothing to do with religion in their minds. It's about the presents. I can go with that. Dinner is usually at my house for a number of reasons. I have control. There are plenty of presents and lots of red and green decorations, but not a manger in sight, and they know better than to bring it up.
@curlew0609 heh, i just like the fact that in alot of jobs I have had that the fact that I am open to working on the Holidays (since I don't celebrate them) gets me double pay :).
I was raised Judeo-Christian, and my family did not celebrate Christmas because of its pagan origins. Now I am an atheist, but I still personally have no desire to celebrate it. It seems strange to me that so many atheists want to celebrate Christmas, even if you remove Jesus from it, because it’s still based on god beliefs. Do many atheists celebrate Easter also? Doesn't having Christmas as a national holiday in the USA violate seperation of church and state?
@TheRavensGhost It's not based on "god beliefs." The 25th may have been when Mithra was born, but the seasonal celebration is one of feasting from the bounty of the old year in preparation for the hardship of winter that was coming.
@curlew0609 The ancient Europeans who were the "pagans" indeed did have some religious overtones to the celebration as well based on their belief in the divinity of Nature itself but it was also as you say also celebrated as a "social" holiday.
People often forget that MANY cultures have significance of all sorts regarding the Solstices, even in regions of the world where the Solstice has nothing to do with "seasons" since in more equatorial regions it doesn't really apply.
@OkamsRazer Solstice, unusual springs, volcanoes, earthquakes, healing plants, caves - the knowledge of the natural thing comes first, then that knowledge is corrupted with myth.
@OkamsRazer "equatorial regions" Even equatorial regions would have seasonal rainy and dry cycles. They would have bright people studying the sky for patterns. I know that various cultures found various stars and times significant. Any culture that had changing day lengths would find that interesting, tho. I know very little about equatorial cultures and would have to do some research unless you could provide some details..
@curlew0609 Indeed they have "rainy and dry" but those are not determined by the relative position of Earth to the Sun as much as the fact that due to the Earth's tilt my home during one month is covered by 2 feet of snow and in another month we are sweating ourselves to death.
To those in equatorial regions the only distinctions they have in their "seasons" is the wet or dry since they get the same amount of sunlight every day, every year regardless.
@curlew0609 There have been numerous cultures that celebrated the Winter solstice, but I can't find one that didn't do it out of superstition or deity worship. Can you? That's also beside the point; we are also talking specifically about Christmas. Tell me, what Christmas traditions are not based on religious practice and deity worship?
@TheRavensGhost "based on religious practive" You are putting the cart before the horse. People noticed the solstice independently of religion. Surplus animals were slaughtered with the resulting feasting because of the practical concern of being able to feed them and because people were having one last fling b4 the hard times they knew were coming. Religious hooey was attached to an important known natural event. Knowledge of the event came first, then the customs or myths surrounding it.
@curlew0609 Obviously people would have observed the solstice before creating mythology around it, but my point is not about the winter solstice. I'm talking specifically about Christmas and Christmas traditions and their origins even before Jesus was added to it. Things like tree worship. I really don't have examples of even the solstice being celebrated culturally without superstition as a motivator, do you? Point me to a source if you have one.
@TheRavensGhost "point me to a source" You are being very short-sighted. Do you think human history or intelligence did not exist b4 writing? The observations and the practical reactions came first, the myths, later. Xmas trees? Pines are natural insect and tick repellents. They smell good. Do you think no one noticed that? Do you think that would not be valued with families and animals crammed together during the cold months? Give your ancestors some credit. They weren't stupid.
@curlew0609 You seem to be having a very strong reaction to a simple point I was making. I never said anything about our ancestors being stupid. All I said was we have recorded history of Christmas traditions and where they came from...all of them being associated with superstition and deity worship. You seem to be suggesting most or at least some are not, and I'm asking you which ones. And that somehow makes me short-sighted...?
@TheRavensGhost "short-sighted" Yes. You brought up xmas trees. I pointed out that people had been bringing fresh evergreens into their homes in the winter for practical reasons, since prehistoric times, just as various apes will choose insect repellent plants for bedding. The knowledge and the custom existed. The religius claptrap was added, later. You brought up early winter feasting. This also has existed, for practical reasons, ever since man learned to keep livestock in northern climates.
@curlew0609 As I've asked before, where did you learn that prehistoric people were dragging evergreen trees into their homes during the solstice for practical use and not superstition or worship? I didn't bring up early winter feasting, you did, and I have to disagreement with that. I'm not questioning the celebration of the solstice, I'm questioning the celebration of Christmas specifically and the traditions associated with it.
"where did you learn" From my son's boy scout manual, Google, and TV documentaries. Alley Oop was already bringing evergreens home in the winter for practical reasons before he knew about solstice.- wood for his fire, branches and needles for his bed. Pine smells good, repels insects, is good insulation, and burns even when wet. Later, traditions and myths evolved around it. But he already knew about this handy plant and was already bringing it home.
@curlew0609 I don't disagree with feasting during the solstice. I typed 'to' instead of 'no', but it was a typo. Alley Oop...the comic strip character? LOL. I've done research on the origins of various Christmas traditions, and I've never found anything to suggest that any ancient culture would drag trees into their homes for non-superstitious reasons. Can you please just give me a primary resource for your claim or shut up about it? I'm open, but you gotta give more than empty claims.
@TheRavensGhost "primary source" I have been searching for an article I saw online regarding an analysis of prehistoric bedding found in a cave. The people had used evergreens, among other things. Haven't found it yet. It was a while ago. It can't hide forever. I'll post it when I find it.
@curlew0609 Also, even if it is true that people had practical reasons for bringing trees into their homes before the superstion of tree worship began, bringing a tree into your home would have nothing to do with celebrating the Winter Solstice as a secular observance. Therefore, you still really have no good reason to do it other than childhood memories and participating in the religious tradition. That's my only point. Not saying you shouldn't do it if you enjoy it, obviously.
@TheRavensGhost "practical reasons" No, evergreens were not brought home at first to celebrate. They were already being used and traditions got attached to that use. BTW, We don't do trees now, but we did up north. We had no trees on our big property up north. In fall, we dug a hole, put the dirt in the garage, & filled the hole w/straw. We would buy a living tree that stayed in it's pot outside. It came in on xmas. It kept the kids busy. The next day, it got planted. A grove full of memories.
Any info that is spread almost solely by religious people can always be assumed to not only be untrue but a lie to hide the truth. You know like, "condoms cause aids". This fake "controversy" is no exception... atheists are not offended by "Merry Christmas" and they never were. I defy anyone to even show me one example. If you do mange to find one example I will match it with a hundred examples of whats really going on here...Christians offended that people don't say "Merry Christmas".
i am yearning for more of this music...lol!and thank you for this thoughtful response, wwclaire1!but then, your responses are always thoughtful and appropriate!may the new year greet you with all it's wonders!thank you,lastly, for a year of informative and intelligent videos!i look forward to conitinuing the round table in 2012!
I wonder if Jezuzfreek will be open-minded enough to allow his daughter to see this video, or if he'll keep her closed up in a closet for the duration of her childhood.
@leeroynaggins It's raining outside, duh. No JK, I don't know, maybe they're busy and need to multitask.
The same reason 'some' atheists (cause I do not) celebrate xmas, is the same reason he has elitist idea in his head, that everyone should cater to him and his religion. It is because despite how badly many of our founding fathers wanted to escape religion, many others did not. It stuck around as a major influence in our country. Now it's dying. Thank Jesus!!!
@WildwoodClaire1 I suspect this may be because they have some privacy in their cars. At home they don't want to talk about controversial topics when their kids might be listening. No need to spark a healthy debate and teach their children to think for themselves. Sadly, I bet Stephanie felt really special that her dad wanted her to be part of that, and she probably came away from that thinking her enlightened dad was treating her like an adult and allowing a real "discussion".
"Why do you atheists give out gifts and put up a tree if you don't believe in like - Christ and stuff?"
Perhaps the first step here is asking that same question about Christians heh... Do you remember those stories about Jesus giving out gifts and dancing around a decorated pine tree? Well... me neither ;)
Its all totally disconnected from the faith (and equally so other faiths/non-faiths too). Its basically just an excuse to celebrate descended from the ancient solstice celebration.
We used to say Happy Holidays because there are multiple holidays going on in the same time frame. Even if you're only concerned with XMass and New Years. Saying them both is a mouthful.
Seriously, Bing didn't sing this because he was being Politically Correct.
I agree with WildwoodClaire1.But i would like to all the religious celebrations to stop, to end.So i'm not going to be part of something that i don't like.I don't even like to say bless you when somebody sneezes.So if if all atheists stop being part of religious celebrations is going to create an absence of people like a hole that is getting larger and larger...lets make christmas, hanukkah ,etc disolve in the "primordial soup" of knowledge.
@WildwoodClaire1 I always thought that the reason stores and retailers preferred the phrase "Happy Holidays" was that they were trying to extend the shopping season from Thanks Giving to New Years. But then this is the musing of an old cynic, and not appropriate to such a young person. Your video is absolutely perfect!
Love that you began with Holly & Ivy. Such a beautiful song, and a perfect choice to illustrate your point. I just wish adults would not point a camera at their children and, while prompting them in the most obvious manner, turn them into youtube personalities. This poor little girl may one day be mortified by her old man's bible waving, and will cringe to think that she was being used publicly.
I wonder if all this stems from simple language semantics, just because there is Christ in Christmas? The English speaking world could adopt 'good yule' instead. Like the Scandinavians do.
I don't think the asatru folks will mind much, they're just a bunch of smelly hippies anyway. Fox News however, would shit bricks.
I think we should all say "Merry Christmas". For, in the Bible it says the Lord forced himself unto Mary and thus Jesus was born out of wedlock. We should never forget that god raped a woman and made his only begotten son a begotten bastard. Deity rape: Never forget.
@ronnystoehr The children's book doesn't need to mention rape to make it real. The action reveals itself. Rape happened. Mary was raped, adultery by rape is something the despicable religious crowd believes in. I don't hold myself to such laughable standards, and it makes me sad some of you people do.
@WildwoodClaire1 I have my doubts as well. I had the same notion with my response. But I came to realize jezuzfreek777 doesn't have it in him, to let his daughter listen to any of the videos. Sad.
I think for her last question, I would have explained that:
People have been celebrating the winter solstice for far longer than Christianity has been around. Most scholars agree that if there was a Jesus, he was probably born in the early summertime. So perhaps an even better question would be; why are Christians ripping off other people's celebrations? Or we could just let each other enjoy the season in whatever we one sees fit.
I used to think "Happy Holidays" was just the plural of all of them. You know, Thanksgiving + Christmas + New Years + whatever else, get it? It was just a way to wish someone a happy November-January. And now I still don't get the whole, being offended thing. I mean, if someone walked up to me and said "Happy Kwanzaa" (which I don't celebrate) I wouldn't be offended. That just seems like a completely inappropriate response to me.
I kinda feel sorry for this girl. Once she stops parroting her father and begins asking for more answers, there's a good chance she'll end up debating him from the atheist perspective.
@MacNutz2 My Primary source for my comment was "the thinking atheists" video Merry Xmas. I also found "When Christmas Was Banned – The early colonies and Christmas" I'll refer you to this as well [Stephen Nissenbaum. (1997). The Battle for Christmas"].
It was not a national Holiday until 1870. Banned was the wrong word. A better phrase is "was not celebrated"
3:30 Well, Stephanie, you just answered your own question: christmas trees, presents, and eggnog, and lights, and most carols, have nothing to do with the birth of Jesus. Frankly, even if I were a rabid, frothing-at-the-mouth Atheist instead of the agnostic atheist I am, there's no point in getting angry about Christmas because there's so little about it that even is christian in the first place.
StrikaAmaru 1 month ago
The early church here in norway wantet the long midwinter tradition of "Jul" to be named Christ-Masse (or "krist messe" in norwegian). It didn't catch on so even christians her in norway call it Jul. God Jul from Norway
norwayjonas 1 month ago
The word holiday actually derived from the term "Holy Day" which also has religious roots.
Christmas(December 25) is not a religious celebration anyway. It is a pagan celebration of the winter solstice.
cdickenson64 1 month ago
@cdickenson64 Making it religious to the Pagans (, witch is a very broad term. Paganism (from Latin paganus, meaning "country dweller", "rustic") is a blanket term, typically used to refer to non-Abrahamic, indigenous polytheistic religious traditions.)
)
ostbagen 1 month ago
poor chyld, high school/college can't come fast enough
kyebean 1 month ago
In sweden, even the christians call it yule, or as we spell it, jul.
rapsarG 1 month ago
Absolutely brilliantly put, hopefully stephanie can watch this and absorb your pedagogical words.
Kunggreen 1 month ago
Poor little girl. She's as brainwashed by her parents as she thinks Muslim kids are....I have hope for her, though. I was raised very religiously and I just simply thought for myself instead of my parents. Voila...no god that I would swear by at all.
mblackchurch 1 month ago
I feel sorry for kids like her. I had a catholic upbringing and even went to catholic school, but my parents weren't fundies and weren't trying to fight a war against atheism, they had me in Catholic school simply because the public elementary school wasn't up to the standards of the Catholic elementary school. I couldn't imagine growing up with Jezusfreek777 as my father.
christo930 1 month ago
@christo930 one flaw i found with a catholic school, was because you need to at least be christian to have a better chance of selection, it means, if your not one to naturally be outgoing by yourself it can narrow your exposure early on during those crucuial yars of high school, when your REALLY learning the nances of social contact and things like religion start to be maybe better understood. and this means meeting muslims for example you dont really know how to act because its so different etc
elgostine 1 month ago
@elgostine I don't think I would worry so much about that. My mother was a devout catholic and was actually in the process of becoming a nun when she met my father who was an atheist (but I never knew it until I came out to my family). The main good thing about catholic school is that all the kids who's parents think school is a babysitting service aren't there to interrupt class and the ill behaved get expelled into the public school system. If you live in a big city, catholic school is a must.
christo930 1 month ago
@christo930 Catholic "school" is where you send your kids if you want them to handed a diploma without competing for it (assuming they're rich and fit narrow Catholic view of a good person) if you want them to get an education, send them to a public school, preferably one without teachers that subscribe to silly bigoted superstitions.
Douglas1102 1 month ago
@Douglas1102 You're joking, right? Catholic schools provide an excellent education and they do it at 1/2 the cost. Catholic schools archdiocese consistently outperform the local schools. Catholicism doesn't endorse YEC and spend very little time on religion. The Catholic school system in the US is outstanding and if you don't want to send your kid into a hellhole of a public school, you send them to catholic school. My Catholic elementary school even had Jewish kids in it.
christo930 1 month ago
@christo930 I never joke about education. There is no evidence at all the that Catholic Schools outperform secular schools, this is just Catholic arrogance. In the closest city I live (Greater Toronto Area) six different schools were caught cheating on standardized tests (teachers actually giving the answers) ALL were Faith schools and four were Catholic. This is practically policy because religious teachers HATE standardized testing 'cause it prevents them from being bias.
Douglas1102 1 month ago
@Douglas1102 Standardized testing is stupid and doesn't show if kids learned anything or not and it forces teachers to prepare children to pass the standardized test. I have met quite a few teachers and none of them like standardized tests. I can speak for the whole country, but the public school I would have had to attend for elementary school was horrible because it was right at a border between a ghetto and a working class neighborhood and I would have been forced into a school of ghetto kids
christo930 1 month ago
@christo930 You come to philly I and will put you in a district and ask you where you want your kid in school. The public school was dangerous. In 81 when I graduated from elementary school we moved out of that section of philly into a much better section and I went to public school and they were behind. I was in the top class and slept through 7th and 8th grade because I already knew the material.
christo930 1 month ago
@christo930 Sure you were in the top of the class... if you were at the "top of the class" you likely wouldn't base your arguments on some unverifiable personal anecdote.
Douglas1102 1 month ago
@Douglas1102 Were talking about the 7th grade here. My personal anecdote is no worse than your unsupported assertions.
christo930 1 month ago
@christo930 I already told you why religious teachers hate standardized testing and it's no surprise that you share this view... after all you couldn't even compete with "ghetto kids". Standardized tests eliminate teacher bias and it's no surprise you wouldn't want that.
Douglas1102 1 month ago
@Douglas1102 No, it was my personal safety. Tell you what, look up Clara Barton elementary school in philadelphia and ask yourself if you would put YOUR kid in that school. Look, I get why you don't like Catholicism, I don't like it either, but the fact remains that Catholic schools are often the best choice available. My parents didn't have the money to send me to a wealthy school and didn't want me in Barton, and for good reasons. Standardized tests suck and give bad incentives to teachers.
christo930 1 month ago
@christo930 Catholicism most certainly does support YEC and the ONLY reason it isn't taught is because you couldn't get public funding for the school. The same goes for why there are Jewish kids in your school. It was only in 90s that this even started and to this day they are still allowed to discriminate against gays. This quote right off the board's web-page really says it all, "While our schools adhere to Ministry of Education requirements, we do so from a Catholic perspective."
Douglas1102 1 month ago
@Douglas1102 No it doesn't. I was a Catholic for 38 years, I know it's central doctrines. I was taught evolution in Catholic elementary school, the vatican has made statements that evolution and a 4.5 billion year old earth do not in any way interfere with faith in Christ. I don't know about today, but in the 70's when I was in elementary school, they didn't get 1 dime in public funding, it was all through tuition and tithing.
christo930 1 month ago
No that is not what Catholics believe, anyone can easily verify this fact. The current Pope blamed Darwin for Hitler and disgustingly claims that he was not a devout Catholic. That is some seriously evil nonsense... it's right up there with holocaust denial.
Douglas1102 1 month ago
Half the cost? That just goes along with my theory that whatever is almost exclusively proposed by Catholics can be reasonably assumed to not only be a lie but a lie to cover the truth, you know like "condoms cause aids". The fact is that if they were good schools they wouldn't outwardly promote superstition and bigotry. And why are public schools hell-holes anyway? The sole difference is that they aren't Catholic based, you likely learned that bigoted nonsense from Catholic school.
Douglas1102 1 month ago
@Douglas1102 Unless you live in really big city like philadelphia, you just won't ever get it. The problem is even bigger in HS because there is bussing and the district is so large. You can live in middle class neighborhood and be in the district of a school that serves the ghetto as well. Catholic school is about 5k for the first kid and each addition kid is cheaper, public schools average 10k per kid. It's because they have no bureaucrats to mess everything up. Religion is only 1 class.
christo930 1 month ago
@christo930 You have understand the city. You can be in a solid middle class neighborhood, walk 8 blocks and be in a ghetto with abandoned houses everywhere with open air drug dealing etc. Everything is compressed in the big cities. You might go all your life without walking those 8 blocks, like it's a world away and you can easily end up sharing a school with that neighborhood.
christo930 1 month ago
@christo930 I'm not surprised there's such a division in your city after talking to you, and of course your answer is to divide even more.
Douglas1102 1 month ago
@Douglas1102 Tell you what, why don't you send your children to a ghetto school. Send your kids somewhere were they have to stay in large groups to avoid being victimized, jumped, beat-up and robbed. THEN come and talk to me about division. I have nothing more to say to you, you're rude and you think you know everything about a place you have probably never been to, let alone lived in.
christo930 1 month ago
@christo930 I don't need lectures about being rude from someone who uses the term "ghetto" pejoratively towards kids and thinks religious based schools are the answer. Toronto has almost the same population as "Philly" and half the people weren't born in Canada so maybe you should rethink your views.
Douglas1102 1 month ago
@Douglas1102 Look, kids only get 1 shot at an education. If you are faced with sending your child to a violent, poorly performing public school, or a private school that happens to be Catholic and who's students do very well in tests (it used to be the STS test when I was in elementary school) and is in the opposite physical direction of the bad neighborhood, it only makes sense to do it. My parents didn't want to make martyrs of my siblings and I. Look up C. Barton school in philadelphia.
christo930 1 month ago
@christo930 Don't forget that 6 years of Catholic school did nothing to prevent me from becoming an atheist. Private, non-religious schools weren't in the area, my family was Catholic and it was a good school and I have (mostly) fond memories of going to that school. It's easy to condemn others when you aren't in the same position. Maybe your local school was a good one and it wasn't an issue, but my parents made the choice they thought was best.
christo930 1 month ago
@christo930 One other thing, it's easy to be all academic about "ghetto" kids when you get to view it from a distance. It becomes theoretical, a thought experiment. Not all ghetto kids are bad, but there was enough of them to make it a bad school. Ironically, I later met a friend who's cousin now works as a teacher at Barton school, and it's so bad they need armed security in an elementary school. These kids came from a neighborhood where violence was everywhere, wouldn't you protect your kids?
christo930 1 month ago
@christo930 I do want to add one caveat and that is I haven't spoken to that teacher(I lost contact with his cousin about 10 years ago) and apparently things got so bad that they completely restructured the school and it now only serves K-2nd grade. I sincerely hope that they have improved.
christo930 1 month ago
@christo930 Your costs are bullshit and one religious class is way too much, it's discriminatory and downright anti-education. How do you know that I don't know what the "big city"is like? Maybe if you didn't have a Catholic "education" you wouldn't make such stupid assumptions.
Douglas1102 1 month ago
@Douglas1102 I didn't make that assumption, you told me outright a few posts ago that you don' live in a big city, nor do you even live in the united states. Toronto isn't Philadelphia and it certainly isn't North Philadelphia, one of the most dangerous neighborhoods in the united states.
christo930 1 month ago
Sarcasm, by the way....
WWZenaDo 1 month ago
"Why do you atheists celebrate Christmas .... putting up a tree and giving presents..." Which have absolutely NOTHING to do with the plagiarism of pagan Greek, Roman, Celtic and Norse traditions into the Greco-Romanized version of a Jewish "Messiah" figure that occurred in the Roman province of Judea approximately 2,000 years before present - 2,000 ybp...
WWZenaDo 1 month ago
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jonisaok 1 month ago
Poor stephanie, growing up with a narrow father like that. I hope that she eventually figure things out on her own soon.
emancoy 1 month ago 4
@emancoy I suspect that her dad's experience with cultural and religious diversity is not much greater than hers.
WildwoodClaire1 1 month ago 5
@WildwoodClaire1 but yours is, right?
Don't kid yourself, Claire, you're white trash.
aIyshooting 1 month ago
@aIyshooting Irrelevant.
WildwoodClaire1 1 month ago
For what it is worth, the way I have always seen it being Aussie; 'Happy Holidays' is about all the days that are grouped together not the one day. It means Happy Christmas, Happy Boxing Day, Happy New Year, Happy holidays - because kids get weeks and weeks and weeks off school (yay for them) and parents hopefully can cope with work and kids on holidays.
I suppose I am just sending a reminder to whoever will listen that internationally 'holidays = vacation' as much as holiday= specific day.
O2BSoLucky 1 month ago
One of the most important part of Christianity is the management of information. I would find it very hard to believe that Stephanie would actually be allowed to view your response. But I enjoyed your response…
apeek7 1 month ago
Well said. I was unaware when I did my own video that JF777 was just a bigot and had no interested in actual discussion.
TheTruePooka 1 month ago
I got a feeling she will never get to see videos like this...lol
Pontus900 1 month ago
wow great vid I agree 100% as a jew I do not mind hearing an Xtian saying "merry christmas" to me. but why should I have to wish merry christmas to them? id say "Happy Chanukah" to everyone but I dont want to be a jerk and assume everyone does Chanukah
KingOystar 1 month ago 2
@KingOystar Hope you had a happy "cha-noo-ka." Just kidding, I dun been edumacated and know how to pronounce them funny Hebrew words :))
WildwoodClaire1 1 month ago
Ask the father why xtians celebrate xmas on December 25th when nobody knows when jesuses birthday was?
lewisner 1 month ago
@lewisner if da vinc code is even close to being correct he might have been born around march/april time
elgostine 1 month ago
@elgostine My point exactly. Supposedly the most important person in the history of the world but nobody thought to record his date of birth?
lewisner 1 month ago
@lewisner allot of things get lost in the mists of time.. even extremely important things like birthdates. and its been 2000 years
and the bible hints at when he was born, roughly speaking
elgostine 1 month ago
@elgostine And I'll restress that he was supposed to be the most important person in the history of the WORLD. No birth date, no physical description ,no contemporary image (painting or sculpture) no description of what he did during his life until about 30. Plus, although there were emininent scholars in Greek, Rome and China he never spoke to any of them. No contemporary accounts of him outside the bible which of course was not written while he was alive.
lewisner 1 month ago
@lewisner thats a god point.
which makes one wonder how it managed to become the biggest religion in the world for 1000 years
elgostine 1 month ago
@elgostine Because it enforced itself on other nations by conquest and because Rome adopted it
lewisner 1 month ago
@lewisner but why did rome adopt it, what made it so appealing to people, thats what im getting at
elgostine 1 month ago
@elgostine Probably Rome figured it would give them more power, which is exactly what it did.
lewisner 1 month ago
@lewisner and the idea of being able to personally communicater with your god
plus ideas empoering the disempowered etc would have been appealing to the more common folk too i guess, that and the fact that christianity has in its texs instructions to go out and get new members the cults of zeus, isis etc wernt like that as far as i knew they were morer like some churches are NOW, i.e just a place to gather at special days, place to hang out etc
elgostine 1 month ago
@elgostine Yep, probably the biggest mistake Hindus Sikhs and Muslims made was not knocking on peoples doors trying to convert them like the Mormons do.
lewisner 1 month ago
@lewisner what dio you mean, the forced conversions during muslim conquests during the medieval period are half the reason islam is the second or maybe even THE biggest religion by number of adherents
those same conquests also helped spark the crusades might i add.
elgostine 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@lewisner what dio you mean, the forced conversions during muslim conquests during the medieval period are half the reason islam is the second or maybe even THE biggest religion by number of adherents
those same conquests also helped spark the crusades might i add.
elgostine 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@lewisner @lewisner what dio you mean, the forced conversions during muslim conquests during the medieval period are half the reason islam is the second or maybe even THE biggest religion by number of adherents
those same conquests also helped spark the crusades might i add.
elgostine 1 month ago
@elgostine The Emperor Constantine made it the official religion of the Roman Empire. after that the religion grew quickly.
WildwoodClaire1 1 month ago
@WildwoodClaire1 yeah i figured that abit after i started pondering, and i guess its that christians actively went out of their way to attract new members would have helped its initial spreadand its rise in popularity.
that doesnt mean its the causeof the dark ages,... however it greatly slowed the recovery that, judging from the mycenean dark age etc would have laster 500-600 yearssad to say we would indeed maye have hovercars by now without it. *sigh*
*from a christan who knows flaws.
elgostine 1 month ago
because young lady people have been drinking and giving gifts to each other in late December long before Christianity. Christmas was shunned by the pilgrims who landed at Plymouth.
mrsquishyboots 1 month ago
As a "Christian" (although I Hate religion...relationship with Jesus) I don't see anything you said to be incorrect. But I think the reason they were offended (They should have pointed out) is that non-religious groups are trying to take Christ out of Christmas or get rid of it completely...which they won't....that's not their holiday so they shouldn't have even tried. Christmas is the holiday that ppl hate, we aren't doing anything equivalent. So some just misinterpret it as offensive
ctkws6 1 month ago
I'm suuuure he'll be happy to explain the bris! HA! Very funny!
zanerbob 1 month ago
Thanks Clare for all your wise words and images. And all the best to you and the fat cat in 2012
TSavage1953 1 month ago
Something tells me Daddy won't be allowing this young girl to hear this response.
sanssleep 1 month ago
I think you should have mentioned Saturnalia. I'll bet daddy would LOVE to explain that one to his little girl. Or maybe the part about why Christmas was moved to a different date by an early Christian bishop because it coincided with a Roman orgy. Have fun with that one dad.
PaulKJHarris 1 month ago
@PaulKJHarris actually it was the act of the Holy See, the Pope was the final arbiter on the establishment of the celebrationof Christmas onto the Winter Solstice. Same goes for "All Saint's Day" superceding the last night of Samhain (Sowen) which was celebrated for an entire month.
ASD was made to Nov 1 to counteract the "evil" pagan festival. Hence why Oct 31st became named All Hallows Eve (Hallow = Holy....Saints are about as holy as it gets), then butchered into "Halloween"
OkamsRazer 1 month ago
Claire: Love ya babe. Great response.
orbnorian 1 month ago
Part 3: I have been an Atheist for the past decade. To me, there is zero possibility of the existence of any of the God's. I miss the innocence of ignorance. I learned too much to believe in anything supernatural. I do not celebrate any of the holidays, but nor am I offended too any degree by the fact that 7 billion people believe differently than I do. If I am offended by anything, it is because I produced the feeling of 'offense' within my own mind. I am the only person who can offend me.
orbnorian 1 month ago 2
Part 2: Those that were offended by the statement "Happy Holiday's" were labeled 'Scrooges'. The buzz word of the season was 'Giving'. This included giving any extra money, clothing, and food to charities who helped the 'less fortunate' locally, nationally, and around the world. Many churches taught that we should celebrate His birth by being as much like Him as we possibly could be. This meant giving of ourselves, since He gave His life - duh.
orbnorian 1 month ago
The statement "Happy Holiday's" replaced "Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year." After WWII, the economy was booming, and most people were spending there yearly saving's during the 'holiday season' which encompassed three major religious and national holidays. During the 60's and 70's, the holiday season became the 'shopping season'. Instead of telling each customer - Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year - tellers were instructed to say - Happy Holidays - due to the long lines.
orbnorian 1 month ago
I recently made a video concerning her last question about atheists celebrating Christmas (which I do) And my answer to her question boils down to the fact that I don't view it as a religious holiday, I view it as a family holiday, and I treat it as such
Spocktacular96 1 month ago
This was quite restrained and elegant. I hope the young lass gets to see it. Gwyliau yn hapus.
Oddsocket 1 month ago 4
@Oddsocket well, I'm NOT going to beat up on a kid, and given her parental guidance, it is hardly surprising that she has been misinformed concerning the reason why businesses often say "Happy Holidays."
WildwoodClaire1 1 month ago 10
@Oddsocket she wont.
oliverjre 1 month ago
Gleðileg jól
olafurhh03 1 month ago
Gleðileg jól
olafurhh03 1 month ago
Happy Holy Days for those who feel this time of year has religious significance. Merry Christmas to those who just love to shop! :)
bitphr3ak 1 month ago
Most people don't even listen to the responses of others at this time of year. Every now and then when I am in a mischievous mood, I will respond to someone who says "merry Christmas" with, "and a hairy mistress to you too". People rarely catch on to what I said.
Theundergroundman186 1 month ago
God Jul from Sweden Claire
JemyM 1 month ago
Atheist too and I say Happy Christmas. Doesn't even register as a religious thing with me anymore.To me it means have a happy get drunk with family and friends, eat too much and exchange gifts day. I don't think people even say 'happy holidays' in Ireland....Nollaig Shona agus an Bhliain Nua Sásta!
eggnchip 1 month ago
I am Wiccan and I celebrate Yule with my friends each year. I was surprised this year when I had several of my Atheist friends left me "Happy Yule" messages on Skype and Facebook. My in-laws are becoming more accepting of this. My daughter is reading about Wicca just so she can understand more about a part of me that she was seldom exposed to.I live in The Bible Belt where you can actually be assaulted for saying "Happy Holidays." But I do respect everyone's right to celebrate their holiday
kelliko70 1 month ago
@kelliko70 Well I applaud your attempts to include your friends in your celebrations even if they don't share your faith (I too am an athiest...but more specifically am agnostic athiest, so I basically there is room for my being wrong since I make no assertions).
I also think its too bad that being from the Bible Belt they simply don't realize the irony of the fact that practically all their deeply held "christian" traditions of the season are derived from ancient European religions.
OkamsRazer 1 month ago
I'm not really sure why this young lady's father wouldn't allow her to see this, there wasn't anything offensive about it and in fact I thought it was very classy of you MissClaire.
ishikawaml 1 month ago
@ishikawaml That is why the father might not like her to see it.
WildwoodClaire1 1 month ago 5
@ishikawaml or it could be that the revelation of actual historical truth is seen as a threat to the illusions of the majority of the population.
OkamsRazer 1 month ago
you have 24 hours to say merry christmas.the rest of the days are not christmas.no big flap but keep up the ...work Faux news(gop news).
thanksforthemessdick 1 month ago
@WildwoodCaire I have a bloody HARD time here. I loath religions and I am a atheist. Used to be kinda R.C. though that never had to do with a God, but with culture Everytime someone says "happy xmas" or even "happy hollidays" I HATE it. It feel it is fake enjoyment of religion, Mid winter stuff got nothing to do with my Atheism. Fine ppl enjoy themselves. But do not put it on me.
JungleHyena 1 month ago
@JungleHyena I think you should lighten up sir, they mean you no harm by wishing well for you, and that is all Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays really is. Have a Happy New Year!
ishikawaml 1 month ago
@JungleHyena Unknot your knickers. I don't do mythology, either, but I'm happy for the paid days off work. Some of my (and yours, I bet) are xtian. The children expect gifts. It has nothing to do with religion in their minds. It's about the presents. I can go with that. Dinner is usually at my house for a number of reasons. I have control. There are plenty of presents and lots of red and green decorations, but not a manger in sight, and they know better than to bring it up.
curlew0609 1 month ago
@curlew0609 heh, i just like the fact that in alot of jobs I have had that the fact that I am open to working on the Holidays (since I don't celebrate them) gets me double pay :).
OkamsRazer 1 month ago
I would bet my last turkey sandwich that child will NEVER see this video.
sheri226 1 month ago
I was raised Judeo-Christian, and my family did not celebrate Christmas because of its pagan origins. Now I am an atheist, but I still personally have no desire to celebrate it. It seems strange to me that so many atheists want to celebrate Christmas, even if you remove Jesus from it, because it’s still based on god beliefs. Do many atheists celebrate Easter also? Doesn't having Christmas as a national holiday in the USA violate seperation of church and state?
TheRavensGhost 1 month ago
@TheRavensGhost It's not based on "god beliefs." The 25th may have been when Mithra was born, but the seasonal celebration is one of feasting from the bounty of the old year in preparation for the hardship of winter that was coming.
curlew0609 1 month ago
@curlew0609 The ancient Europeans who were the "pagans" indeed did have some religious overtones to the celebration as well based on their belief in the divinity of Nature itself but it was also as you say also celebrated as a "social" holiday.
People often forget that MANY cultures have significance of all sorts regarding the Solstices, even in regions of the world where the Solstice has nothing to do with "seasons" since in more equatorial regions it doesn't really apply.
OkamsRazer 1 month ago
@OkamsRazer Solstice, unusual springs, volcanoes, earthquakes, healing plants, caves - the knowledge of the natural thing comes first, then that knowledge is corrupted with myth.
curlew0609 1 month ago
@curlew0609 pretty much, yup.
OkamsRazer 1 month ago
@OkamsRazer "equatorial regions" Even equatorial regions would have seasonal rainy and dry cycles. They would have bright people studying the sky for patterns. I know that various cultures found various stars and times significant. Any culture that had changing day lengths would find that interesting, tho. I know very little about equatorial cultures and would have to do some research unless you could provide some details..
curlew0609 1 month ago
@curlew0609 Indeed they have "rainy and dry" but those are not determined by the relative position of Earth to the Sun as much as the fact that due to the Earth's tilt my home during one month is covered by 2 feet of snow and in another month we are sweating ourselves to death.
To those in equatorial regions the only distinctions they have in their "seasons" is the wet or dry since they get the same amount of sunlight every day, every year regardless.
OkamsRazer 1 month ago
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OkamsRazer 1 month ago
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OkamsRazer 1 month ago
@curlew0609 There have been numerous cultures that celebrated the Winter solstice, but I can't find one that didn't do it out of superstition or deity worship. Can you? That's also beside the point; we are also talking specifically about Christmas. Tell me, what Christmas traditions are not based on religious practice and deity worship?
TheRavensGhost 1 month ago
@TheRavensGhost "based on religious practive" You are putting the cart before the horse. People noticed the solstice independently of religion. Surplus animals were slaughtered with the resulting feasting because of the practical concern of being able to feed them and because people were having one last fling b4 the hard times they knew were coming. Religious hooey was attached to an important known natural event. Knowledge of the event came first, then the customs or myths surrounding it.
curlew0609 1 month ago
@curlew0609 Obviously people would have observed the solstice before creating mythology around it, but my point is not about the winter solstice. I'm talking specifically about Christmas and Christmas traditions and their origins even before Jesus was added to it. Things like tree worship. I really don't have examples of even the solstice being celebrated culturally without superstition as a motivator, do you? Point me to a source if you have one.
TheRavensGhost 1 month ago
@TheRavensGhost "point me to a source" You are being very short-sighted. Do you think human history or intelligence did not exist b4 writing? The observations and the practical reactions came first, the myths, later. Xmas trees? Pines are natural insect and tick repellents. They smell good. Do you think no one noticed that? Do you think that would not be valued with families and animals crammed together during the cold months? Give your ancestors some credit. They weren't stupid.
curlew0609 1 month ago
@curlew0609 You seem to be having a very strong reaction to a simple point I was making. I never said anything about our ancestors being stupid. All I said was we have recorded history of Christmas traditions and where they came from...all of them being associated with superstition and deity worship. You seem to be suggesting most or at least some are not, and I'm asking you which ones. And that somehow makes me short-sighted...?
TheRavensGhost 1 month ago
@TheRavensGhost "short-sighted" Yes. You brought up xmas trees. I pointed out that people had been bringing fresh evergreens into their homes in the winter for practical reasons, since prehistoric times, just as various apes will choose insect repellent plants for bedding. The knowledge and the custom existed. The religius claptrap was added, later. You brought up early winter feasting. This also has existed, for practical reasons, ever since man learned to keep livestock in northern climates.
curlew0609 1 month ago
@curlew0609 As I've asked before, where did you learn that prehistoric people were dragging evergreen trees into their homes during the solstice for practical use and not superstition or worship? I didn't bring up early winter feasting, you did, and I have to disagreement with that. I'm not questioning the celebration of the solstice, I'm questioning the celebration of Christmas specifically and the traditions associated with it.
TheRavensGhost 1 month ago
"where did you learn" From my son's boy scout manual, Google, and TV documentaries. Alley Oop was already bringing evergreens home in the winter for practical reasons before he knew about solstice.- wood for his fire, branches and needles for his bed. Pine smells good, repels insects, is good insulation, and burns even when wet. Later, traditions and myths evolved around it. But he already knew about this handy plant and was already bringing it home.
"feasting..disagree" Go ahead.
curlew0609 1 month ago
@curlew0609 I don't disagree with feasting during the solstice. I typed 'to' instead of 'no', but it was a typo. Alley Oop...the comic strip character? LOL. I've done research on the origins of various Christmas traditions, and I've never found anything to suggest that any ancient culture would drag trees into their homes for non-superstitious reasons. Can you please just give me a primary resource for your claim or shut up about it? I'm open, but you gotta give more than empty claims.
TheRavensGhost 1 month ago
@TheRavensGhost "primary source" I have been searching for an article I saw online regarding an analysis of prehistoric bedding found in a cave. The people had used evergreens, among other things. Haven't found it yet. It was a while ago. It can't hide forever. I'll post it when I find it.
curlew0609 1 month ago
@curlew0609 Also, even if it is true that people had practical reasons for bringing trees into their homes before the superstion of tree worship began, bringing a tree into your home would have nothing to do with celebrating the Winter Solstice as a secular observance. Therefore, you still really have no good reason to do it other than childhood memories and participating in the religious tradition. That's my only point. Not saying you shouldn't do it if you enjoy it, obviously.
TheRavensGhost 1 month ago
@TheRavensGhost "practical reasons" No, evergreens were not brought home at first to celebrate. They were already being used and traditions got attached to that use. BTW, We don't do trees now, but we did up north. We had no trees on our big property up north. In fall, we dug a hole, put the dirt in the garage, & filled the hole w/straw. We would buy a living tree that stayed in it's pot outside. It came in on xmas. It kept the kids busy. The next day, it got planted. A grove full of memories.
curlew0609 1 month ago
Is she reading a prompt at 3:30 ?
fidgaf 1 month ago
happy holidays is nice and general. It is nice. My inner goth doubts the happy part.
greenghost2008 1 month ago
My video response would have been much simpler and would have gone like this, "I'm not offended, your Dad is a liar and Merry Christmas".
Douglas1102 1 month ago
That was a bit like Sesame Street - and I mean that in the most positive sense.
KaroKoenich 1 month ago
Any info that is spread almost solely by religious people can always be assumed to not only be untrue but a lie to hide the truth. You know like, "condoms cause aids". This fake "controversy" is no exception... atheists are not offended by "Merry Christmas" and they never were. I defy anyone to even show me one example. If you do mange to find one example I will match it with a hundred examples of whats really going on here...Christians offended that people don't say "Merry Christmas".
Douglas1102 1 month ago
I always enjoy your music choices, Claire.
wavymavy 1 month ago
i am yearning for more of this music...lol!and thank you for this thoughtful response, wwclaire1!but then, your responses are always thoughtful and appropriate!may the new year greet you with all it's wonders!thank you,lastly, for a year of informative and intelligent videos!i look forward to conitinuing the round table in 2012!
practicalmagic9 1 month ago
I wonder if Jezuzfreek will be open-minded enough to allow his daughter to see this video, or if he'll keep her closed up in a closet for the duration of her childhood.
Hereticbooks 1 month ago
Why are they filming while driving?
leeroynaggins 1 month ago
@leeroynaggins It's raining outside, duh. No JK, I don't know, maybe they're busy and need to multitask.
The same reason 'some' atheists (cause I do not) celebrate xmas, is the same reason he has elitist idea in his head, that everyone should cater to him and his religion. It is because despite how badly many of our founding fathers wanted to escape religion, many others did not. It stuck around as a major influence in our country. Now it's dying. Thank Jesus!!!
shabido1 1 month ago
@leeroynaggins I don't know, but making videos in one's car seems to be a YouTube Christian fundy tradition.
WildwoodClaire1 1 month ago 11
@WildwoodClaire1 I guess god will keep them safe.
santora1957 1 month ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@WildwoodClaire1 I guess god will keep them safe.
santora1957 1 month ago
@WildwoodClaire1 and maybe one day many christians will make a massive car crash due to youtube videos... "god protects me from...BOOOM!"
ErgoProxy12345 1 month ago
@WildwoodClaire1 I suspect this may be because they have some privacy in their cars. At home they don't want to talk about controversial topics when their kids might be listening. No need to spark a healthy debate and teach their children to think for themselves. Sadly, I bet Stephanie felt really special that her dad wanted her to be part of that, and she probably came away from that thinking her enlightened dad was treating her like an adult and allowing a real "discussion".
anzhelo4ka 1 month ago
Poor kid. Her dad has fried her brain. I'm betting she'll rebel in a couple of years like I did (he he).
goosed1 1 month ago
"Why do you atheists give out gifts and put up a tree if you don't believe in like - Christ and stuff?"
Perhaps the first step here is asking that same question about Christians heh... Do you remember those stories about Jesus giving out gifts and dancing around a decorated pine tree? Well... me neither ;)
Its all totally disconnected from the faith (and equally so other faiths/non-faiths too). Its basically just an excuse to celebrate descended from the ancient solstice celebration.
TheStigma 1 month ago
We used to say Happy Holidays because there are multiple holidays going on in the same time frame. Even if you're only concerned with XMass and New Years. Saying them both is a mouthful.
Seriously, Bing didn't sing this because he was being Politically Correct.
watch?v=3k_q_UMI3tQ
xdassinx 1 month ago
I agree with WildwoodClaire1.But i would like to all the religious celebrations to stop, to end.So i'm not going to be part of something that i don't like.I don't even like to say bless you when somebody sneezes.So if if all atheists stop being part of religious celebrations is going to create an absence of people like a hole that is getting larger and larger...lets make christmas, hanukkah ,etc disolve in the "primordial soup" of knowledge.
globalarte 1 month ago 2
Comment removed
globalarte 1 month ago
You could send her dad a link to the video. Then again...it would probably be "filtered".
vatreniboris 1 month ago
@vatreniboris This video is linked to his. That was the point of making it.
WildwoodClaire1 1 month ago
@WildwoodClaire1 I always thought that the reason stores and retailers preferred the phrase "Happy Holidays" was that they were trying to extend the shopping season from Thanks Giving to New Years. But then this is the musing of an old cynic, and not appropriate to such a young person. Your video is absolutely perfect!
hatemorethanyou999 1 month ago
@WildwoodClaire1 Oh that's right. Sorry for the lapse! Happy 2012 and can't wait for the Dim light winner.
vatreniboris 1 month ago
Whatever your beliefs having someone say "Happy Holidays" is far superior to being told to "F*** Off". It's a nice sentiment, take it for what it is.
jacksawild 1 month ago 4
@jacksawild LOL that's awesome......mainly because that's usually the sentiment I would most like to express around the holiday season.
Thulgore 1 month ago
@Thulgore In that case... F. Off, and a happy new year. :P
jacksawild 1 month ago
There are some Christians that seem to consider anyone who doesn't worship Jesus as an atheist.
deepashtray 1 month ago
This kid is going to grow up believing that its atheists that are making her life miserable and not her wacko father.
123backinyerface 1 month ago 2
Love that you began with Holly & Ivy. Such a beautiful song, and a perfect choice to illustrate your point. I just wish adults would not point a camera at their children and, while prompting them in the most obvious manner, turn them into youtube personalities. This poor little girl may one day be mortified by her old man's bible waving, and will cringe to think that she was being used publicly.
4rest4trees 1 month ago
I wonder if all this stems from simple language semantics, just because there is Christ in Christmas? The English speaking world could adopt 'good yule' instead. Like the Scandinavians do.
I don't think the asatru folks will mind much, they're just a bunch of smelly hippies anyway. Fox News however, would shit bricks.
Holammer 1 month ago
I think we should all say "Merry Christmas". For, in the Bible it says the Lord forced himself unto Mary and thus Jesus was born out of wedlock. We should never forget that god raped a woman and made his only begotten son a begotten bastard. Deity rape: Never forget.
elspoko 1 month ago
@elspoko No need to add new fantasy to a fantasy book. No mention of raping Mary, but heavenly adultery is quite obvious... ;)
ronnystoehr 1 month ago
@ronnystoehr The children's book doesn't need to mention rape to make it real. The action reveals itself. Rape happened. Mary was raped, adultery by rape is something the despicable religious crowd believes in. I don't hold myself to such laughable standards, and it makes me sad some of you people do.
elspoko 1 month ago
I wonder if this particular young lady will get to see this video?
AronRa 1 month ago 17
@AronRa I doubt it.
WildwoodClaire1 1 month ago 14
@WildwoodClaire1 I have my doubts as well. I had the same notion with my response. But I came to realize jezuzfreek777 doesn't have it in him, to let his daughter listen to any of the videos. Sad.
santora1957 1 month ago
@WildwoodClaire1 Which is a pity.
mrfishgun 1 month ago
@AronRa It would be a pitty if she does not.
19RedLineR74 1 month ago
I think for her last question, I would have explained that:
People have been celebrating the winter solstice for far longer than Christianity has been around. Most scholars agree that if there was a Jesus, he was probably born in the early summertime. So perhaps an even better question would be; why are Christians ripping off other people's celebrations? Or we could just let each other enjoy the season in whatever we one sees fit.
RainCityBlues 1 month ago
There is a world outside the US. And we say "happy yule"
Not to offend others... It's just what we do!
So: Glædelig jul (happy yule).. To all of you..
ItsmeonY2 1 month ago
Wonderful and gentle explanation Clair! I wonder if her father will be open minded enough to let her see it.
hatemorethanyou999 1 month ago
@hatemorethanyou999 Doubt that, she might learn something.
Vegasgodless 1 month ago
I used to think "Happy Holidays" was just the plural of all of them. You know, Thanksgiving + Christmas + New Years + whatever else, get it? It was just a way to wish someone a happy November-January. And now I still don't get the whole, being offended thing. I mean, if someone walked up to me and said "Happy Kwanzaa" (which I don't celebrate) I wouldn't be offended. That just seems like a completely inappropriate response to me.
snitcheyes411 1 month ago
I kinda feel sorry for this girl. Once she stops parroting her father and begins asking for more answers, there's a good chance she'll end up debating him from the atheist perspective.
redearthdoom 1 month ago
@redearthdoom Then again. It is hard for many to break those chains of childhood brainwashing. That video makes me sick.
Killedkennyagain 1 month ago
@MacNutz2 My Primary source for my comment was "the thinking atheists" video Merry Xmas. I also found "When Christmas Was Banned – The early colonies and Christmas" I'll refer you to this as well [Stephen Nissenbaum. (1997). The Battle for Christmas"].
It was not a national Holiday until 1870. Banned was the wrong word. A better phrase is "was not celebrated"
19822andy 1 month ago