I thought it would take me a while to get used to the sound of the Bohlen-Pierce scale, but I actually enjoyed "Love Song". I'm going to do some research on this.
@zonedout245 - awesome! That is the idea. I don't see any reason micro/macrotonal music needs to be too strange. I find that if it's composed in an accessible way, people's ears lock in to the new tonality pretty quickly.
@rguitar87 I suggest reading the book 'How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony (and Why you should care)'. It's an excellent overview of western temperament and easy to understand.
A lot is being overlooked by acoustic scientists about tonal systems. For starters, traditional scales did not 'grow out of major triads' but from cycles of fifths to produce pentatonic and diatonic music. Traditional 12-tone octaves were really a western compromise for keyboards to play diatonic scales and harmony. This is only possible because each progresses to its adjacent 5th via #4 or b7. What is the equivalent of this in BP tonality? Can octaves really be ignored? (I'm just interested.)
I find that alternative tonal systems seem to be restrictive with regard to expression. Atonal music can only express tension and unrest, whole-tone music 'dream-like' indifference and Pierce-Bohlen a sort of sparse, steep tangent structure. There doesn't seem to be any restrictions with traditional tonality. There are new theories (some involving Euclidean geometry) that suggest there's more to tonal systems than acoustic consonance. Traditional scales exist in cultures without 12-note octaves.
To clarify: when I play a C, I can actually hear the E and G in the vibrating string but I have to listen much closer to hear even more notes that are in a single string, many microtonal. I found 12 but this could be because I was in a Western scale paradigm when I did the test. I used a No.2 pencil eraser touching all along the length of a continuously plucked guitar string and 12 notes clearly exist in one string: M3, P5 and 8va are certainly Western, more may be but others are clearly not.
Western music is based off of both the ratios of the frequencies present in harmonics to the fundamental, as well as the ergonomics of musical interfaces. Because of one dimensional keyboards like the piano 12 tone equal temperament is prominent because it is the easiest for one dimensional playing surfaces while still getting close enough to those microtonal notes you hear in the harmonics. Those intervals you hear are actually the "best" ones while the ones we use are "imperfect."
So not even the fifth we use is the exact perfect fifth, it's about two cents off, nor is the third, its almost 15 cents off. They just well approximate the overtones you hear in your harmonic instruments. The only perfect interval we use is the octave.
Thanks, JLMoriat - that gets me all excited again about this stuff. What could be more insightful to the laws of nature than a single vibrating string? Along comes this thing called "music" that has this mysterious ability to influence our emotional state - and anyone who has gotten this close to music knows instinctively that there's great undiscovered scientific insight right there, right under our noses in a single vibrating string. i wish our number system was 12 base instead of 10.
@JLMoriart Equal Temperament was never actually used until the 20th century, although it existed as an ideal from about 1850. There was no way to measure it precisely enough untill about 1900. J.C. Bach and Mozart advocated meantone temperaments, and a variety of compromises for keyboards. Some keyboards even had split keys! Mozart apparently hated Equal Temperament as did most composers at that time.
I could be wrong but I don't think the Western scale was based off of a Maj Triad, I'm pretty sure it was based off of the harmonics that exist in a single vibrating string i.e. guitar string 5th fret=8va, 7th fret=Perfect 5th, 9th fret=Major 3rd.Every note has a Western Major triad in it.On a single string, I found a lot more notes than Pythagoras did (some microtonal).Have fun, I saw all your vids and it seems like you're searching for something totally new-I hope you find it-i didn't lol :S
ha! YOU'RE the one who was doing algebra when you were 3 and programming php when you were 12 (and looking good doing it)! I always tell people my niece is a brainiack. ;)
But what is the point? I think a normal scale or piano or guitar gives me everything I could possible need, and I think dissecting art in this way takes away a lot of the beauty of it.
Alternate tunings are important precisely because music IS art, and artists (at least some of us) must keep breaking down the walls of conformity! After playing piano since 1976, my ears have literally become tired of the 12 tone tuning when it comes to composing. (I still enjoy other people's music just fine!) Each tuning has a different "flavor"..why not experiment? I understand some people are more performance oriented, such as jazz artists and this might not interest them. vid comin soon.
(cont) The standard western 12 tone tuning is based on natural harmonics, but SO ARE OTHER TUNINGS. The BP Scale is actually MORE harmonically pure than 12 notes per octave. BP is beautiful and eerie.. 19 notes per octave is HARSH.. 10 notes per octave sounds LOOSE. This is a whole world of flavors that sadly, most musicians never see, because (1) our acoustic instruments are built for 12 tones (thus my need for electronics) and (2) most musicians think the 12tet is the only tuning in existence.
It's probably just a matter of opinion, but I find something beautiful in the traditional 12 tone, 8 notes per octave that I have yet to hear in any other Scale. I see no NEED for anything different. And how can you measure the harmonic purity of a Scale? How can one give absolute measure to something relative?
Harmonic purity is absolute.. Instruments produce complex waveforms, meaning they are built up of numerous sine waves (harmonics or partials) added together. One can measure the harmonic purity of an interval, say a perfect 5th, by looking at how the partials contained in each note line up in relation to the other note's partials. Octaves, 5ths and 4ths are very harmonic because the lower harmonics line up nicely. (cont..)
(...cont) 7ths and tritones are less harmonic, which lends to the harshness of their sound. Obviously we want a mixture of both within a tuning! I was just making the point that the BP Scale is more harmonic than the 12 tone scale because it's an interesting point. The 12 tone tuning was chosen for it's harmonic purity.. yet there are alternatives that have more. BUT.. that said, most people would not choose the BP Scale because it doesn't contain octaves! It is not for the weak of heart. :)
Do as you wish I guess, but I'm still discovering incredible new ways of using my traditional instrument and I get the feeling I still have learnt nothing. I feel no need to complicate my life further, even if it does generate a whole new dimension to music.
It is easy to write a mathematical measure of harmonic purity. Essentially you compute the average distance of the pitches of one scale (as in 12 tone equal tempered scale) from pure small ratio intervals. The scale that comes closest wins.
But theoretically you could subdivide the total wavelength of an octave into any number of different parts so no scale should be more pure than another. Purity of the scale is just a question of preference.
Which scale you PREFER is of COURSE a matter of preference. This is ART! But whether the intervals in a scale are harmonically pure is mathematically measurable. (That said, I don't do fourier transforms on my tunings.. I just try them out by ear.) Using different tunings for your songs is like using different color palates for your paintings. I prefer to experiment with more than one. If you are happy with the 12 tone palate, then by all means, stick with it. It's YOUR art, after all. :)
Yes, this is art. Art to me is emotion expressed through energy or matter, and part of the beauty of art is it's mysteriousness. To me once you start dissecting it the way people here appear to, it loses that mysterious aspect. It's not expression but science. It's not driven by emotion but by mathematics.
Most musicians would agree with you, TheNewHumanist, but my brain is wired a bit differently.. my mother is a musician/mathematician and I got her genes. I like to look at the technical side as well as freely experiment artistically (different parts of my brain). REMEMBER that the 12 tone scale you love, with it's "major", "minor", triads, sevenths, etc, was dissected for centuries and it's "theory" is now taught in school. First musicians experiment freely, then others analyze it. I do both. :)
Hi d4dan! Thanks! my story is that I'm an artist/electronic-music-geek that can't stop reading about science.. I keep trying to respond to your comment, but it never seems to stick.. I put a link to some music in the "about this video". Check it out and let me know what you think!
when did tina fey dye her hair blonde?
creamyfilling102 1 week ago
I am looking forward to watch all the parts! Never thaught a woman could be interested in such things. Ok, i admit, it turns me on.
orboksanci 5 months ago
We all miss Baloney.
All of us.
MrGuyfella 1 year ago
Absolutely fascinating, but you're hot!
13eastie 1 year ago
I thought it would take me a while to get used to the sound of the Bohlen-Pierce scale, but I actually enjoyed "Love Song". I'm going to do some research on this.
zonedout245 1 year ago
@zonedout245 - awesome! That is the idea. I don't see any reason micro/macrotonal music needs to be too strange. I find that if it's composed in an accessible way, people's ears lock in to the new tonality pretty quickly.
miselaineeous 1 year ago
This is all so very fascinating. I just embarked on the journey that is studying temperament.
Does Baloney run away when you play microtonal harmonies?
rguitar87 1 year ago
@rguitar87 I suggest reading the book 'How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony (and Why you should care)'. It's an excellent overview of western temperament and easy to understand.
spectralmusic 1 year ago
A lot is being overlooked by acoustic scientists about tonal systems. For starters, traditional scales did not 'grow out of major triads' but from cycles of fifths to produce pentatonic and diatonic music. Traditional 12-tone octaves were really a western compromise for keyboards to play diatonic scales and harmony. This is only possible because each progresses to its adjacent 5th via #4 or b7. What is the equivalent of this in BP tonality? Can octaves really be ignored? (I'm just interested.)
spectralmusic 1 year ago
I find that alternative tonal systems seem to be restrictive with regard to expression. Atonal music can only express tension and unrest, whole-tone music 'dream-like' indifference and Pierce-Bohlen a sort of sparse, steep tangent structure. There doesn't seem to be any restrictions with traditional tonality. There are new theories (some involving Euclidean geometry) that suggest there's more to tonal systems than acoustic consonance. Traditional scales exist in cultures without 12-note octaves.
spectralmusic 1 year ago
Comment removed
spectralmusic 2 years ago
Doesn't look like you have a wedding ring on...must be a lot of stupid men in your area! Looks and Brains...one in a million!
planktonite 2 years ago
does your "keyboard" double as a tekken 3 controller? i bet you could so a bunch of awesome combos with that many buttons.
xguitarxchan 2 years ago 13
I'm sure your computer never has any mouse problems ;)
styx49 2 years ago
To clarify: when I play a C, I can actually hear the E and G in the vibrating string but I have to listen much closer to hear even more notes that are in a single string, many microtonal. I found 12 but this could be because I was in a Western scale paradigm when I did the test. I used a No.2 pencil eraser touching all along the length of a continuously plucked guitar string and 12 notes clearly exist in one string: M3, P5 and 8va are certainly Western, more may be but others are clearly not.
zeekle 3 years ago
Western music is based off of both the ratios of the frequencies present in harmonics to the fundamental, as well as the ergonomics of musical interfaces. Because of one dimensional keyboards like the piano 12 tone equal temperament is prominent because it is the easiest for one dimensional playing surfaces while still getting close enough to those microtonal notes you hear in the harmonics. Those intervals you hear are actually the "best" ones while the ones we use are "imperfect."
JLMoriart 2 years ago
So not even the fifth we use is the exact perfect fifth, it's about two cents off, nor is the third, its almost 15 cents off. They just well approximate the overtones you hear in your harmonic instruments. The only perfect interval we use is the octave.
JLMoriart 2 years ago
Thanks, JLMoriat - that gets me all excited again about this stuff. What could be more insightful to the laws of nature than a single vibrating string? Along comes this thing called "music" that has this mysterious ability to influence our emotional state - and anyone who has gotten this close to music knows instinctively that there's great undiscovered scientific insight right there, right under our noses in a single vibrating string. i wish our number system was 12 base instead of 10.
zeekle 2 years ago
@JLMoriart Equal Temperament was never actually used until the 20th century, although it existed as an ideal from about 1850. There was no way to measure it precisely enough untill about 1900. J.C. Bach and Mozart advocated meantone temperaments, and a variety of compromises for keyboards. Some keyboards even had split keys! Mozart apparently hated Equal Temperament as did most composers at that time.
spectralmusic 1 year ago
I could be wrong but I don't think the Western scale was based off of a Maj Triad, I'm pretty sure it was based off of the harmonics that exist in a single vibrating string i.e. guitar string 5th fret=8va, 7th fret=Perfect 5th, 9th fret=Major 3rd.Every note has a Western Major triad in it.On a single string, I found a lot more notes than Pythagoras did (some microtonal).Have fun, I saw all your vids and it seems like you're searching for something totally new-I hope you find it-i didn't lol :S
zeekle 3 years ago
- - - - -
As a music minor at SCSU (1972-1976) in New Haven CT, I took a course called "experimental" music. The content was very similar to your discussion.
- - - - -
TrustyShellback 3 years ago
the axis B and P scale...? what...? now I have to rethink everything... this is amazing stuff...... thank you mis.
raw420x 4 years ago
truly innovative.
mrtyles 4 years ago
Holy Crap! What a Huge Cat!
wallywalt 4 years ago 5
Baloney? She's an itty bitty thing.. skin and bones at 16 years old! Maybe the camera makes everyone look fat. :P
miselaineeous 4 years ago
How did all the genius DNA skip me? Srsly.
dangerrrdoll 4 years ago
ha! YOU'RE the one who was doing algebra when you were 3 and programming php when you were 12 (and looking good doing it)! I always tell people my niece is a brainiack. ;)
miselaineeous 4 years ago
I love the BOHLEN-PIERCE scale!
One of my electric guitars is refretted into the B-P scale. I also have an electic B-P bass...
bidul37 4 years ago
WOW, really? That's amazing. You are one of the few... and the proud. :) Do you have any videos playing your BP guitar?
miselaineeous 4 years ago
Hi Elaine! Going crazy waiting for the next installment.
Thanks for the link to your Love Song in BP, it's stunning, the best piece I've heard in BP so far, really lovely.
nonoctave 4 years ago
I'm working on it! I keep getting distracted with other things.. ok.. FOCUS.
miselaineeous 4 years ago
But what is the point? I think a normal scale or piano or guitar gives me everything I could possible need, and I think dissecting art in this way takes away a lot of the beauty of it.
TheNewHumanist 4 years ago
Alternate tunings are important precisely because music IS art, and artists (at least some of us) must keep breaking down the walls of conformity! After playing piano since 1976, my ears have literally become tired of the 12 tone tuning when it comes to composing. (I still enjoy other people's music just fine!) Each tuning has a different "flavor"..why not experiment? I understand some people are more performance oriented, such as jazz artists and this might not interest them. vid comin soon.
miselaineeous 4 years ago
(cont) The standard western 12 tone tuning is based on natural harmonics, but SO ARE OTHER TUNINGS. The BP Scale is actually MORE harmonically pure than 12 notes per octave. BP is beautiful and eerie.. 19 notes per octave is HARSH.. 10 notes per octave sounds LOOSE. This is a whole world of flavors that sadly, most musicians never see, because (1) our acoustic instruments are built for 12 tones (thus my need for electronics) and (2) most musicians think the 12tet is the only tuning in existence.
miselaineeous 4 years ago
It's probably just a matter of opinion, but I find something beautiful in the traditional 12 tone, 8 notes per octave that I have yet to hear in any other Scale. I see no NEED for anything different. And how can you measure the harmonic purity of a Scale? How can one give absolute measure to something relative?
TheNewHumanist 4 years ago
Harmonic purity is absolute.. Instruments produce complex waveforms, meaning they are built up of numerous sine waves (harmonics or partials) added together. One can measure the harmonic purity of an interval, say a perfect 5th, by looking at how the partials contained in each note line up in relation to the other note's partials. Octaves, 5ths and 4ths are very harmonic because the lower harmonics line up nicely. (cont..)
miselaineeous 4 years ago
(...cont) 7ths and tritones are less harmonic, which lends to the harshness of their sound. Obviously we want a mixture of both within a tuning! I was just making the point that the BP Scale is more harmonic than the 12 tone scale because it's an interesting point. The 12 tone tuning was chosen for it's harmonic purity.. yet there are alternatives that have more. BUT.. that said, most people would not choose the BP Scale because it doesn't contain octaves! It is not for the weak of heart. :)
miselaineeous 4 years ago
I think a 7/4 is very harmonic (minor 7th - 31 cents)
epiphoney 4 years ago
Do as you wish I guess, but I'm still discovering incredible new ways of using my traditional instrument and I get the feeling I still have learnt nothing. I feel no need to complicate my life further, even if it does generate a whole new dimension to music.
TheNewHumanist 4 years ago
It is easy to write a mathematical measure of harmonic purity. Essentially you compute the average distance of the pitches of one scale (as in 12 tone equal tempered scale) from pure small ratio intervals. The scale that comes closest wins.
jstarret 4 years ago
But theoretically you could subdivide the total wavelength of an octave into any number of different parts so no scale should be more pure than another. Purity of the scale is just a question of preference.
TheNewHumanist 4 years ago
Which scale you PREFER is of COURSE a matter of preference. This is ART! But whether the intervals in a scale are harmonically pure is mathematically measurable. (That said, I don't do fourier transforms on my tunings.. I just try them out by ear.) Using different tunings for your songs is like using different color palates for your paintings. I prefer to experiment with more than one. If you are happy with the 12 tone palate, then by all means, stick with it. It's YOUR art, after all. :)
miselaineeous 4 years ago
Yes, this is art. Art to me is emotion expressed through energy or matter, and part of the beauty of art is it's mysteriousness. To me once you start dissecting it the way people here appear to, it loses that mysterious aspect. It's not expression but science. It's not driven by emotion but by mathematics.
TheNewHumanist 4 years ago
Most musicians would agree with you, TheNewHumanist, but my brain is wired a bit differently.. my mother is a musician/mathematician and I got her genes. I like to look at the technical side as well as freely experiment artistically (different parts of my brain). REMEMBER that the 12 tone scale you love, with it's "major", "minor", triads, sevenths, etc, was dissected for centuries and it's "theory" is now taught in school. First musicians experiment freely, then others analyze it. I do both. :)
miselaineeous 4 years ago
The idea is to use the simplest ratios as your measure. 1/1, 2/1, 3/2, 4/3, 5/4, 7/4, 9/8, etc.
jstarret 4 years ago
I need to hear that. Need to hear a thirteen note scale. I've dreamt of doing that myself. You are cool. What's your story?
d4dan 4 years ago
Hi d4dan! Thanks! my story is that I'm an artist/electronic-music-geek that can't stop reading about science.. I keep trying to respond to your comment, but it never seems to stick.. I put a link to some music in the "about this video". Check it out and let me know what you think!
miselaineeous 4 years ago