The universe is mental, created by source of it all, being of the conciseness of source with certain vibration within the mental universe everything is in motion nothing rests, the dreamer within the dream, can awaken to see this, that everyone plays a roll in creating direction of the big picture,( so below as above--as above so below) this 3D reality with its duality projects us into mind and thoughts by programed implants of others designs slowing vibration to quagmire, is ego. ergo
Great topic. I used to do a workshop on healing and evolving the emotional body. It is a bit more complex. Imagine thinking as morphic fields having a personality as in Jungs's collective unconsciousness. Thoughts have a track of movement from Spirit ( mind ) through heart and into Will ( emotional body) then out to body. So thoughts effect feelings directly. Any interruption of this flow will have an effect on the Will. Will is a big thing. The object of control Both within and without.
there are no feelings, there are no people; the whole thing is one giant illusion. Problem is we've taken it to be real. All is empty. There is actually nothing, nothing at all. H.H. The Sixth Patriarch Hui Neng (638 - 713). This is too advanced, and most of all for the learned.
The reflexes that Bohm talks about; to us they appear to be our autonomous judgements about our experiences, but what they really are, are aspects of the system of thought imposing itself on our experiences. We think that our reactions to things have a grounding in the world, when in fact they are simply reflexes operating of their own accord as it were, and "we" are subject to that movement of thought.
I'm just trying to understand this, but does it make sense to say that there is thought, and thought creates meaning, and because we are not properly aware of the activity of thought, we fail to see the "deeper" meaning, which thought itself could never perceive or produce, and that deeper meaning relates to thought itself, and its activity of creating meaning....
I'm just trying to understand this, but does it make sense to say that there is thought, and thought creates meaning, and because we are not properly aware of the activity of thought, we fail to see the "deeper" meaning, which thought itself could never percieve or produce, and that deeper meaning relates to thought itself, and its activity of creating meaning....
"Where is the 'I' between two thoughts?" A thought is just an abstraction from the actual process going on: thinking. We can be sure that physical objects exist and that they act. Thinking is an activity. We make an inference from thinking to thought because it's useful, but there's no ontological significance of a "thought" over and above the act of thinking (by thinkers).
"Thoughts think thinkers. Thinkers don't think thought." This strikes me as a frustrating and smug misuse of language.
It sounds as though the woman with the stroke was fighting a tulpa...an animated, sentient thoughtform...sometimes I think when people suffer from OCD, they're combating entitized tulpas...just my imagination, running away with me...
Lucid and concise explanation of some fascinating -- not to mention practically invaluable -- ideas which are also central to the ethos of Gurdjieff and his intellectual lineage (though these ideas are probably far older than this). There are exact parallels between Bohm's conception (as interpreted) of a voluntary proprioception of thought and Gurdjieff's "self-remembering", not to mention Bohm's "suspension of thought" and Gurdjieff's "non-identification". Was Bohm a Gurdjieffian?
Why do people refuse the notion that their minds and thoughts can be controlled by an external source. The C.I.A has been secretly researching this topic since the 1940's Wikipedia search " Dr Louis Jolyon West " He was a psychiatrist who secretly researched remote behavior modification (Mind control) for the intelligence community. Please give this some serious thought for we seem to lack the ability to critically analyze the seriousness of this subject and what it suggests.
You may want to consider not saying that thought lacks proprioception, as in lacking proprioception totally or "thought lacks awareness of it's own movement" , but rather suggest that thought may have proprioception already , but lacks SUFFICIENT proprioception to be aware of all of it's participation in the creating of our experiences.This may seem like "nit-picking" , but Bohm was careful about what one says especially in these matters because of the participation that
(cont.) our thinking does play in the reality we are able to experience. After my participation in Bohm Dialogues I am of the belief that it is easier to work w/proprioception of thought (as a System) when it is understood as a natural process that already occurs and can be refined versus something that is presently not happening ( & therefore alien to us) that maybe we can possibly develop. At other times your language supports what I am trying to emphasize, but I'm just taking this opportunity
@godhelpme2009 ,(cont. again) - to highlight some of the implications of Bohm's work (as I understand it).
Thank you for posting this. You do a great job of explaining a lot , & very clearly in a short amount of time. I am glad you included the story of the women who had the stroke. It is such a great illustration of the essential role proprioception plays in how we understand, move, participate in life.
I really enjoy playing with Bohm's beautiful brilliance that he gave to the world.
Great post! You seem to be experiencing in some way this flow, it would be very nice to converse with you. I haven't read On Dialogue yet, i've looked into David's Physics and Wholeness and the implicate order, which i find is an amazing insight. His views on perception and phenomenolgy (Which i came across in his Special Relativity book) are also very insightful, if ever you are interested.
hah, the Krinsch trip is a mindfuck and i sepak from experience!
What woke me out of K's pull which I had knowingly allowed was finding by accident the book by his mistress titled Living in the Shadow of Krishnamurti where she tells whjat he was ACTUALLY like!
Good stuff a doctor who has dealt with this type of mindfulness or lack thereof check out john kabat zinn....mindfulness and meditation it has profound psyhcological and then ironically...if healthy,,,,,physiological phenonmenon are apparent think telomeres and aging....also yes htought comes to us we never come to them....holderlin...another person you should check out...high point of german literacy ...influenced everyone form heideggar to nietzsche to spinoza.etc..non linear.david allen greer
I've read some of his lectures from "thought as a system" on just this thought-proprioception notion. But if thought lacks proprioceptive capacities, then what is the difference between schizophrenic 'thought insertion' without a sense of agency (SA) for thought and normal persons with SA? I've seen him address this in relation to motor control (leading to paranoia) but not thought?
so could you say that because we are always being bombarded with ideas and imfomation, but we are not always aware or alert enough to anticipate the effects such info has on us, because we can't always be that alert, that some things "slip under the radar" as it were and effect us much more, because we were not aware at the time that this thing was effecting us?
Another winner & so important! The fullest analysis of these ideas I have met is in the buddhist 'foundations of mindfulness' Satipatthana teaching. Not only is it analysed there, but proven techniques in how to are given (I'd recommend a Vipassana retreat).
It's a SO much bigger job than is often appreciated because one is reprogramming the default setting in thought habits inborn in us & reinforced through yrs of reactive thinking. Knowing about it is the 1st step - but then the work begins :)
Thought and time are the causes of fear and of anger. In thinking about thinking [what Bohm calls propriorception] we can look at our autonomic responses -- We can look at what we felt at the time with the intent of understanding them.
The suppression of anger and/or fear just makes those autonomic response go deeper into our basic identity - Brilliant point!
Eleanor Roosevelt said, "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
"Thought itself is the outcome of thought" is a thought which is a notion about an idea of a concept, bretheren, and before someone labels that who shpeal just a passing thought.....I'll do it for you, was the fact that I did it for you merely the thought of an idea......I give up.
What's with this sort of apologetic, letting us down softly, advisory, explication from above? It comes off as concealed moralizing. Every time I dip in to listen, I hear the same tone. When will you speak up to us? Ever since dospook engaged you at the level of your discipline, this whole thing ran off the rails. It worked well when the absence of a part helped shape the discourse, but now that the jig is up you can't go back. Speak to us as colleagues, not students.
You write, "Ever since dospook engaged you at the level of your discipline, this whole thing ran off the rails. It worked well when the absence of a part helped shape the discourse, but now that the jig is up you can't go back," I literally have no idea what you are talking about. You must not have watched that many of my videos.
"I literally have no idea what you are talking about." Isn't this the old "word salad" defense? Look, when someone gives a paper at a conference, they hope everyone will be interested enough to criticize them. I find most of your videos presume the audience is learning something from you. The net is full of people who have thought and worked hard on a lot of what you are interested in. You should engage this at a high level. Why always speak as a popularizer?
Of course, people will crawl over each other to give me a thumbs down for this; they will shower you with compliments; you will probably see me as irrelevant. Just remember, teaching Heidegger can be a way to act as a subhierarchical authority within the hierarchy of education -- it can be a way to be "king of the heels." Once subsumed, it is possible to delineate dissent by being the authority on dissent. I would prefer the dog meat.
Sometimes our thoughts seem foreign to us as if they have arisen from outside of ourselves, they stalk us, and have no veracity out of our selves. Bohm dialogue is an exercise in creating a space free of those "assumptions" that I keep mentioning that are the death of veracity...or maybe if we beat every opinion to death we will be left the carcass of veracity, only, will we recognize it? Help : P
IMO, when the teaching of the basic principles of metacognition to preschool children becomes universal, it will be the dawn of a new era for mankind.
But only if it can be done before a new dark age consumes us.
The idea of identifying/controlling our thoughts and actions brought forth by them reminds me of this quote: "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." Viktor E. Frankl
Awareness is key to changing the tables on thought.
If I am the one engaged in thought, then who is it that is observing the thought?
BlindSoothsayer 11 hours ago in playlist ☂ ☼ BEGIN HERE, if you like.
this is eerily similar, perhaps identical, to the teachings of the buddha
zazenzach 1 week ago
feelings suddenly appear: maipulation of electromagnetic energy ie: sound waves undetectable by concious
PeopleJustLikeUs 3 weeks ago
God = cognitive dissonance * ∞
batfly 3 weeks ago in playlist ☂ ☼ BEGIN HERE, if you like.
The universe is mental, created by source of it all, being of the conciseness of source with certain vibration within the mental universe everything is in motion nothing rests, the dreamer within the dream, can awaken to see this, that everyone plays a roll in creating direction of the big picture,( so below as above--as above so below) this 3D reality with its duality projects us into mind and thoughts by programed implants of others designs slowing vibration to quagmire, is ego. ergo
freepress666 3 weeks ago
Good stuff.
astrotometry 3 weeks ago in playlist ☂ ☼ BEGIN HERE, if you like.
Great topic. I used to do a workshop on healing and evolving the emotional body. It is a bit more complex. Imagine thinking as morphic fields having a personality as in Jungs's collective unconsciousness. Thoughts have a track of movement from Spirit ( mind ) through heart and into Will ( emotional body) then out to body. So thoughts effect feelings directly. Any interruption of this flow will have an effect on the Will. Will is a big thing. The object of control Both within and without.
3877michael 6 months ago
there are no feelings, there are no people; the whole thing is one giant illusion. Problem is we've taken it to be real. All is empty. There is actually nothing, nothing at all. H.H. The Sixth Patriarch Hui Neng (638 - 713). This is too advanced, and most of all for the learned.
superjujujuice 6 months ago
Great video. Thanks!
JesusCockInAllahAss 8 months ago
Isn't that moment when we say "I have thoughts", as if there were an "I" between two thoughts, a kind of mistake produced by self-awareness?
begily 9 months ago
@begily Who wants to know? ;)
Professoranton 9 months ago
@Professoranton I do!
begily 9 months ago
The reflexes that Bohm talks about; to us they appear to be our autonomous judgements about our experiences, but what they really are, are aspects of the system of thought imposing itself on our experiences. We think that our reactions to things have a grounding in the world, when in fact they are simply reflexes operating of their own accord as it were, and "we" are subject to that movement of thought.
begily 9 months ago
biology also plays a large role in our moods and feelings.
try being happy when your blood-sugar has tanked.
zazeify 10 months ago
But if you cannot suspend the anger and instead suppress it, how on eath are you going to be able to suspend the suppression and observe that?
begily 10 months ago
I'm just trying to understand this, but does it make sense to say that there is thought, and thought creates meaning, and because we are not properly aware of the activity of thought, we fail to see the "deeper" meaning, which thought itself could never perceive or produce, and that deeper meaning relates to thought itself, and its activity of creating meaning....
begily 10 months ago
I'm just trying to understand this, but does it make sense to say that there is thought, and thought creates meaning, and because we are not properly aware of the activity of thought, we fail to see the "deeper" meaning, which thought itself could never percieve or produce, and that deeper meaning relates to thought itself, and its activity of creating meaning....
begily 10 months ago
@Professoranton, but when we look at thought arnt we becoming part of the whole?
Karlemids 10 months ago
everything is connected - consciousness creates thought by tapping into quantum connectivity. the question is, what is consciousness.
Karlemids 10 months ago
"Where is the 'I' between two thoughts?" A thought is just an abstraction from the actual process going on: thinking. We can be sure that physical objects exist and that they act. Thinking is an activity. We make an inference from thinking to thought because it's useful, but there's no ontological significance of a "thought" over and above the act of thinking (by thinkers).
"Thoughts think thinkers. Thinkers don't think thought." This strikes me as a frustrating and smug misuse of language.
TheRedHutt 1 year ago
It sounds as though the woman with the stroke was fighting a tulpa...an animated, sentient thoughtform...sometimes I think when people suffer from OCD, they're combating entitized tulpas...just my imagination, running away with me...
Great post
MKUltra3 1 year ago
Great video. This is basic mindfulness practice as described in classic Buddhist meditation.
mruglypig 1 year ago
project your reflection ~ outward change begins within
JustSomeGuy741 1 year ago
Lucid and concise explanation of some fascinating -- not to mention practically invaluable -- ideas which are also central to the ethos of Gurdjieff and his intellectual lineage (though these ideas are probably far older than this). There are exact parallels between Bohm's conception (as interpreted) of a voluntary proprioception of thought and Gurdjieff's "self-remembering", not to mention Bohm's "suspension of thought" and Gurdjieff's "non-identification". Was Bohm a Gurdjieffian?
dan0rama 1 year ago
This method of avoiding negative emotion has worked for me a few times since I saw this video a few days ago. Thanks for posting.
theendofconfusion 1 year ago
how propaganda works: shape subjective reality by shaping thought
mijmijrm 1 year ago
Why do people refuse the notion that their minds and thoughts can be controlled by an external source. The C.I.A has been secretly researching this topic since the 1940's Wikipedia search " Dr Louis Jolyon West " He was a psychiatrist who secretly researched remote behavior modification (Mind control) for the intelligence community. Please give this some serious thought for we seem to lack the ability to critically analyze the seriousness of this subject and what it suggests.
7711ish 1 year ago
Yes, sir ---I consider thought to be a child.
jaymurtii 1 year ago
Very very good, thanks a lot. :)
Ethrentity 1 year ago
Great Post ! Thank you.
You may want to consider not saying that thought lacks proprioception, as in lacking proprioception totally or "thought lacks awareness of it's own movement" , but rather suggest that thought may have proprioception already , but lacks SUFFICIENT proprioception to be aware of all of it's participation in the creating of our experiences.This may seem like "nit-picking" , but Bohm was careful about what one says especially in these matters because of the participation that
godhelpme2009 1 year ago
(cont.) our thinking does play in the reality we are able to experience. After my participation in Bohm Dialogues I am of the belief that it is easier to work w/proprioception of thought (as a System) when it is understood as a natural process that already occurs and can be refined versus something that is presently not happening ( & therefore alien to us) that maybe we can possibly develop. At other times your language supports what I am trying to emphasize, but I'm just taking this opportunity
godhelpme2009 1 year ago
@godhelpme2009 ,(cont. again) - to highlight some of the implications of Bohm's work (as I understand it).
Thank you for posting this. You do a great job of explaining a lot , & very clearly in a short amount of time. I am glad you included the story of the women who had the stroke. It is such a great illustration of the essential role proprioception plays in how we understand, move, participate in life.
I really enjoy playing with Bohm's beautiful brilliance that he gave to the world.
godhelpme2009 1 year ago
Great post! You seem to be experiencing in some way this flow, it would be very nice to converse with you. I haven't read On Dialogue yet, i've looked into David's Physics and Wholeness and the implicate order, which i find is an amazing insight. His views on perception and phenomenolgy (Which i came across in his Special Relativity book) are also very insightful, if ever you are interested.
Thanks again, all the best
resonantmuscaria 1 year ago
How many of you ever took abnormal psychology??
Symptoms of post traumatic stress,ect....
pickofthepatch 2 years ago
hah, the Krinsch trip is a mindfuck and i sepak from experience!
What woke me out of K's pull which I had knowingly allowed was finding by accident the book by his mistress titled Living in the Shadow of Krishnamurti where she tells whjat he was ACTUALLY like!
zezt 2 years ago
2 he could be a RIGHT bitch and then when told he was being egotisitcal scremed "I HAVE no ego, how dare you!"
He grrealty upset Bohm so much so he suffered great sadness and heart problems
So my advice. think how you think and feel how you feel...dont worry about it :) dont pretend
zezt 2 years ago
Good stuff a doctor who has dealt with this type of mindfulness or lack thereof check out john kabat zinn....mindfulness and meditation it has profound psyhcological and then ironically...if healthy,,,,,physiological phenonmenon are apparent think telomeres and aging....also yes htought comes to us we never come to them....holderlin...another person you should check out...high point of german literacy ...influenced everyone form heideggar to nietzsche to spinoza.etc..non linear.david allen greer
f1ghtclub2k3 2 years ago
There are numerous techniques in pursuit of this. Especially in Zen and Shamanism....oh, and Jesuits of course.
faunflynn 2 years ago
Good post.
Much of our mental processing is totally unconscious.
What we are aware of, as thoughts, are emergent.
There are good physiological reasons why you can not become conscious of our unconscious thoughts.
They don't have labels , so, they are beyond language. So not explicable.
You can however become more conscious of the high speed execution cascades of our emergent thoughts. Trakakarma, chod etc.
faunflynn 2 years ago
Those words are all thoughts, as is the concept of equal. All thoughts being equal, everything is everything.
Cashify 2 years ago
All That Is = All That Is
All=All
That=That
Is=Is
Cashify 2 years ago
it is the greatest thing. to learn to suspend thought..wow..not an easy skill to learn
Ipluckithard 2 years ago
Thanks!
Professoranton 2 years ago
I've read some of his lectures from "thought as a system" on just this thought-proprioception notion. But if thought lacks proprioceptive capacities, then what is the difference between schizophrenic 'thought insertion' without a sense of agency (SA) for thought and normal persons with SA? I've seen him address this in relation to motor control (leading to paranoia) but not thought?
emblemOFbeing 2 years ago
interesting video...really, cool :]
SasjaYaTebyaLyublyu 2 years ago
Thank you so much
Professoranton 2 years ago
so could you say that because we are always being bombarded with ideas and imfomation, but we are not always aware or alert enough to anticipate the effects such info has on us, because we can't always be that alert, that some things "slip under the radar" as it were and effect us much more, because we were not aware at the time that this thing was effecting us?
begily 2 years ago
The "we" itself, the sense of "me" and "i" these are already the outcome and part of the continued processes of thought
Professoranton 2 years ago
thank you for all your efforts, Corey. I also enjoyed Thought as a System in which Bohm goes into detail about such metacognitions.
9macrina9 2 years ago
Thanks Mary
Professoranton 2 years ago
Another winner & so important! The fullest analysis of these ideas I have met is in the buddhist 'foundations of mindfulness' Satipatthana teaching. Not only is it analysed there, but proven techniques in how to are given (I'd recommend a Vipassana retreat).
It's a SO much bigger job than is often appreciated because one is reprogramming the default setting in thought habits inborn in us & reinforced through yrs of reactive thinking. Knowing about it is the 1st step - but then the work begins :)
soulfetcher 2 years ago
Great video!
Thought and time are the causes of fear and of anger. In thinking about thinking [what Bohm calls propriorception] we can look at our autonomic responses -- We can look at what we felt at the time with the intent of understanding them.
The suppression of anger and/or fear just makes those autonomic response go deeper into our basic identity - Brilliant point!
Eleanor Roosevelt said, "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
The interior self can be an ally.
2bsirius 2 years ago
Thanks. How are thought and time related? Are they two aspects of the same thing?
Can there be time without thought?
Professoranton 2 years ago
"Thought itself is the outcome of thought" is a thought which is a notion about an idea of a concept, bretheren, and before someone labels that who shpeal just a passing thought.....I'll do it for you, was the fact that I did it for you merely the thought of an idea......I give up.
Cashify 2 years ago
Yeah!
jedimasterbooboo 2 years ago
What's with this sort of apologetic, letting us down softly, advisory, explication from above? It comes off as concealed moralizing. Every time I dip in to listen, I hear the same tone. When will you speak up to us? Ever since dospook engaged you at the level of your discipline, this whole thing ran off the rails. It worked well when the absence of a part helped shape the discourse, but now that the jig is up you can't go back. Speak to us as colleagues, not students.
aaronhemeon 2 years ago
You write, "Ever since dospook engaged you at the level of your discipline, this whole thing ran off the rails. It worked well when the absence of a part helped shape the discourse, but now that the jig is up you can't go back," I literally have no idea what you are talking about. You must not have watched that many of my videos.
Professoranton 2 years ago
"I literally have no idea what you are talking about." Isn't this the old "word salad" defense? Look, when someone gives a paper at a conference, they hope everyone will be interested enough to criticize them. I find most of your videos presume the audience is learning something from you. The net is full of people who have thought and worked hard on a lot of what you are interested in. You should engage this at a high level. Why always speak as a popularizer?
aaronhemeon 2 years ago
Of course, people will crawl over each other to give me a thumbs down for this; they will shower you with compliments; you will probably see me as irrelevant. Just remember, teaching Heidegger can be a way to act as a subhierarchical authority within the hierarchy of education -- it can be a way to be "king of the heels." Once subsumed, it is possible to delineate dissent by being the authority on dissent. I would prefer the dog meat.
aaronhemeon 2 years ago
Sometimes our thoughts seem foreign to us as if they have arisen from outside of ourselves, they stalk us, and have no veracity out of our selves. Bohm dialogue is an exercise in creating a space free of those "assumptions" that I keep mentioning that are the death of veracity...or maybe if we beat every opinion to death we will be left the carcass of veracity, only, will we recognize it? Help : P
alchemistra 2 years ago
I do think "foreign' is an interesting word. I think for Bohm, the "me" is the problem, at least how it is normally thought about.
Professoranton 2 years ago
Very good.
IMO, when the teaching of the basic principles of metacognition to preschool children becomes universal, it will be the dawn of a new era for mankind.
But only if it can be done before a new dark age consumes us.
DonQuixotedeKaw 2 years ago 3
Thanks
Professoranton 2 years ago
Our thoughts control us.
The idea of identifying/controlling our thoughts and actions brought forth by them reminds me of this quote: "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." Viktor E. Frankl
Awareness is key to changing the tables on thought.
ICharmaine 2 years ago
Yes. A collective awareness fostered through dialogue.
Professoranton 2 years ago
Thank you so much for what you share. I'm half way through the Epictetus and using it to reduce my fuse blowing as I go about the world.
Colston 2 years ago
Thanks.
Professoranton 2 years ago
Thank you for bringing up Bohm. I enjoy his books as well as those by Krishnamurti and William Isaacs.
hallcyon 2 years ago
Thanks. It really is a great book.
Professoranton 2 years ago