The Stones sued Carter USM for using the words, Tuesday, Ruby and Goodbye, seams if you sings words in an order someone else sung commonly used words even if it's not the same tune the Stones can still sue. I wonder if Frankie Goes To Hollywood will sue Huey Lewis & the News and Jennifer Rush for singing the words, Love, Of, The and Power in the same order FGTH did ?. End if the day no music is truly original anymore as there are only so many notes to play and so many combinations
Richard Ashcroft wrote 100% of the lyrics himself and should have gotten the credit. Instead, the song is credited to Jagger/Richards, WHO DIDN'T EVEN WRITE A SINGLE WORD.
The Verve negotiated a deal with the Stones to split 50% of the revenue from Bittersweet Symphony for sampling AN ORCHESTRAL ADAPTATION OF A COVER SONG. That's right, The Last Time by the Stones is a cover song from The Staple Singers, so Klein never had an argument for lack of originality.
el riff es similar a last time de the rolling stones, porque ellos si lo usaron solo, que fue un poco mas de lo debido pero es una cancion magnifica y tambien hubo creacion en ella e innovacion en el sonido, ademas la letra es hermosa , the last time y bitter sweet simphony de the the verve , solo una muestra de la grandesa de estas dos bandas que han marcado el rock, simplemente dos bandas mejestuosas
its terrible how a band gets ripped off like this.the rolling stones couldve done something about clearing the sample.they are just cunts who rip other people off anyway.its not like they need the money.he should have just left the sample off.same chord progression but so what.so are a million other songs.alan kline was famous for ripping people off.the sweaty old scab.
I think the idea that the main string melody in BSS is "completely original" is a bit of a stretch. It's obvious it's a clever arrangement of the main string line and the melody that the "church bells" have...along with maybe a flute or something. You can hear it all together in the middle point of the ALO version...it sounds pretty close to the same progression. Really ALO should get a credit cause his version sounds nothing like the stones. And RA should get credit too. Fabrizio is right.
Everybody takes a rift or two off other bands. The question is; are they ripping the original writer(s) off or are they simply taking a great sound and innovating it into something magnificent. I choose the second answer. Ashcroft is a wonderful musician, so were everybody else involved in the evolution of Bittersweet Symphony. Rather than looking at how Ashcroft copied the Stones and Stones copied whoever, instead look at how many imfamous souls have contributed to such a marvelous song :)
I love "Bittersweet Symphony" and think it's a great song. I think that the string riff is also taken from or sampled off the Andrew Oldham Orchestra version too, though...Go to around 1:51 into the Andrew Oldham orchestra version and you'll hear the string riff Richard Ashcroft claims is his band's own invention...look it up what I'm talking about:
I would say that the stole and they were caught. The riff is obviously also based on the ALO-version. And while the Stones had other iconic songs, what are the other ones of the Verve...?
The Verve should have taken on Klien; released it anyway then settled it in court and publicised it, there's no way a judge would assign 100% over to Klien. Respect to Ashcroft's philosophical nature but its 90% his tune and he deserves credit IMO.
To say this song is a cover of Last Time is like saying Paper Planes is a cover of Straight to Hell. It's not. She sampled it and put her own lyrics to it. That's what Ashcroft did. Why are the Stones credited for writing this song? They had basically nothing to do with it. They've said so themselves. Also, shouldn't royalties be going to that gospel group? Now that's basically the same song.
@Pippin76 ...but it is Verves greatest, well at least most popular... but then they had a classic Stones melody & that orch sample. Stones wrote some good ones . BTW Bob did write a pile of good ones including the only Top 40 hit Jimi Hendrix had .
@whiteej21 Ashcroft knew he was singing the melody to the Stones song . I think he used the sample to intentionally "get caught" . If there had been a courtroom litigation It would have been the melody that decided as in the cases of nearly all successful copyright suits . It was a very effective means in getting the industry insiders to recognize them . That reinforces much of what you have said of the industry .
@Geepsterr "Kids have no originality" stood in my time coming up too though not quite as barren. There are always a few in every time Many never surface. If you look at my generation coming up most of our pop music was crap but a few artists were breakthrough & quite original . Just a few... and the same is true today. Lots a crap , a few gems . The "industry" isn't serving up the finest & I'm a little too caught up in my own projects to sift through it .
@whiteej21 The vocal melody is the issue very close to "Last Time" . Say what you want about drumming up controversy but this album was their first big seller and this song is the one to make the top and "best of " lists . Just coincidence right ? Like Ashcroft said in sarcasm : The biggest hit the Stones had since Brown Sugar . What he didn't say is: My only big hit and I didn't write much of it .
@whiteej21 . I didn't catch it at first but some one pointed it out to me. Believe me it IS nearly note for note.
As for deals cut :The reality is we don't know what went on behind closed doors nor what money changed hands . We DO know that this album was Verves commercial breakthrough . Both sides profited from the controversy . Draw your own conclusions.
@whiteej21 Chord progressions are not subject to copyright . Virtually all songwriters share publishing royalties with their publishing company (unless a buyout or a work for hire). If Stones sold all the rights to Klein well then it is his. Now I agree that the new Ashcroft lyrics are worth something but that does not give him a right to the Stones melody at all. He needed his own melody or written permission for a derivative work .
@whiteej21 This was NOT a suit . Ashcroft knew he "lifted" the verse melody virtually note for note and then asked for "clearance" of the string sample. He did it on purpose to make news. Most of my dealings with entertainment lawyers have been unpleasant but they call them "mouthpiece" for a reason : The unpleasant part is really rooted with whom they represent , usually the artist doesn't want to appear as the bad guy . BTW Parker didn't rip entire melodies to pass off as his own.
@whiteej21 This was NOT a suit . Ashcroft knew he "lifted" the verse melody virtually note for note and then asked for "clearance" of the string sample. He did it on purpose to make news. Most of my dealings with entertainment lawyers have been unpleasant but they call them "mouthpiece" for a reason : The unpleasant part is really rooted with whom they represent , usually the artist doesn't want to appear as the bad guy . BTW Parker didn't rip entire melodies to pass off as his own.
@whiteej21 Good points. Of course it's for judges to judge but attorneys specializing in creative content usually settle before it get's to a court battle . The best songwriter I have played for is also a creative content attorney. Surely Verve was advised pay whatever is being asked because you cant win . Ashcroft plagiarized the vocal melody & then added the string sample from the inst cover by which he ratted himself out , He'd likely have gotten away with just the melody .
@Geepsterr Fact is they paid what was being asked ALL PUBLISHING & WRITERS ROYALTIES They went ahead & released it & made news of it on the premise that bad press is still good press and played the Oppressed angle . Common publicity stunt but a very clever one . I'd never have heard of these guys if this hadn't gone down.
@whiteej21 good points you make near the end . Of course it's for judges to judge but attorneys specializing in creative content usually settle before it get's to a court battle . The best songwriter I have played for is also a creative content attorney. Surely Verve was advised pay whatever is being asked because you cant win . Ashcroft plagiarized the vocal melody & then added the string sample from the inst cover by which he ratted himself out , might have gotten away with just the melody.
If someones should be credited as cowriter its Oldham. To me it is clear that only after the Verve MADE IT a hit, Klein stole all the credits the Stones accepted so they are equally guilty
I clearly remember the 1st time I heard this song while passing nearby a music store I jumped inside begging for the title , its so magnetic.
The biggest hit from the stones AND THE STAPLE SINGERS this days ( HA HA HA)
@whiteej21 Now that's funny . Both Oldham strings and Stones melody & no permission = a clear cut case that no judge would need a minute for a rendering. Kline told Verve 100% of the publishing . at 0:43 listen to what Ashcroft says about when he asked for clearance of the sample . Kline listening to the Verve recording , obviously heard not just sample but the verse melody to Stones This Could Ce the Last Time . It is not for us to judge what is a reasonable fee. It was Klines .
@whiteej21 Well it's called "Deep Pockets." Take George Harrison for example, the writers for "He's so Fine" knew they had a pretty good shot at getting copyright damages from Harrison, and they did. Why? Because "My Sweet Lord" was a number one hit and George had a lot of money. In that respect, I think "My Sweet Lord" is a very original piece of music, but it does have the same melody and chord structure as "He's So Fine."
@whiteej21 "drug and sex antics" ...Now who sounds old?
Maybe 100% is wrong, as I said Klein was a son-of-a-bitch. But I have no sympathy for The Verve (no pun intended). It would have been SO easy for them to change one note in the melody and make it an entirely new song, and Klein would have no case.
@whiteej21 First of all I'm younger than you are (if you are 27 as you claim). Second of all, are you meaning to tell me the Rolling Stones (a band that has inspired a generation of rock 'n rollers, written dozens of classic songs) are not as revolutionary as The Verve? Gimme a break!
I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree about this. But don't forget the other part to this argument: Allen Klein was a cheap bastard who would steal money from charity. Best just to create new music from scratch
@whiteej21 Listen, I do library music for a living. The entire industry is based on taking popular songs and changing them just enough not to get sued. There's an art to it, but even in that regard, there's still work going into rearranging chord structures, re-recording guitar parts, etc. This has been going on since the dawn of time. Keith Richards knocked off Chuck Berry, who knocked off somebody else. But sampling something is a whole different category of stealing.
@whiteej21 Okay fill in the blanks of what artists the Rolling Stones ripped off, or "Sampled" for these songs: "Satisfaction" - "Paint it Black" - "Jumping Jack Flash" - "Sympathy for the Devil" - "Street Fighting Man" - "Honky Tonk Women" - "You Can't Always Get What you Want" - "Brown Sugar" - "Wild Horses" - "Can't You Hear Me Knocking" - "Tumbling Dice" - "Angie" - "Heartbreaker" - "Beast of Burden" - I can list more if you like?
@whiteej21 Let me ask you something, did The Verve actually create that iconic string riff in the song from scratch? (Meaning did they actually hire a string section, write up charts, and record them performing it? Or did they just lift it straight out of a track that already did that?)
Hate to break this to you, but the guitar lick in "The Last Time," that's actually Brian Jones performing it live with the session.
Okay Klein was a douchebag, but I'm actually glad these guys got sewed for copyright infringement. This whole idea of stealing... sorry "Sampling" songs NEEDS TO STOP!!! I spend hours every day trying to come up with original riffs and chord sequences for songs. These guys STEAL (yes STEAL) a piece of music and pass it off as their own becoming rich and famous. Keith Richards has every right to criticize these guys.
@InsipidAction Excuse me... but you need to remember that the Stones passed this song off as their own when it comes to the copyright, when in actual fact they stole it from the Staple Singers. In my book that is a bit more aggresive than sampling a few bars!!!
A lot of the Stones musical ideas were stolen from 60's r'n'b.
@durtyfingurz First of all, the Verve is not just sampling "A few bars," the melody line is the same as the Stones song. Second of all, "This May Be The Last Time" was not written by The Staples Singers. It's not even "60s r'n'b," it's a traditional Gospel song The Staples Singers rearranged. Keith admitted the inspiration came from it. Big difference between "Inspiration" and actually stealing, sorry "Sampling" a piece of music.
Lets face it, just like hip hop , kids today just don't have a clue,on how to be original. Lol , this one hit wonder band sample the whole Andrew Loog Oldham tune. Richard Ashcroft needs to learn on how to be original and stop the sampling , that why I hate New York City hip hop .
Badfinger's music survived Allen Klein; and so to will things be made right eventually for Richard Ashcroft. Klein is dead and I hope you will keep fighting.
2:41, is a lie actually, just listen to the orchestra cover, part of it actually is exactly the same, 1:38 of the orchestra song, its the SAME exact string arrangement
@jaqua524 Yes Sir, in fact the 1:38 is still The Verve version with different equalization and pitch to emphatise the loop from Rolling stones ( whose version is the one in the first 9 seconds of this video). The Ashcroft's string theme is the melodic one not the harmonic... here is a link to the RS version check it out! Nice but... no melodic string theme ;-)
@Oisselapathos actually! if you listen to the stones, at, I believe 130 in, that melodic string theme you speak of, goes on for about 10 seconds, for two loops in the stones song...it sounds like its on a keyboard though
To be fair though, regardless of the money. In 10-20 years time people will listen to this record and say "yeah its by THE VERVE, they were an amazing band." Its like now. This song came out in what? 97/98? And nobody cares about a 'borrowed' sample from the Stones that led to a lawsuit. What people remember is how good the song is and who its really by. The VerVe of course. People acknowledge that the credibility of this anthem lies in the mind of Ashcroft. Thats all that matters I think.
@TheLukaraptor They did not take the sample from the Stones. The orchestral I was a work for hire that belonged to Oldham. Ashcroft said that Kline had said it would be 100% or the song won't come out . All Ashcroft had to do is WRITE his OWN melody instead of takeing the Stones verse and remove the sample strings and have his string arranger create a replacement line . They decided to risk it . Still Verve profited selling the record, performing & lets face it the controversy made them .
To be fair it wasn't the R.Stones idea to sue the sh!t out of the Verve... they didn't move a finger for or against the case. This was their money hoarding ex-manager plan doing all the work. This Klein fella also stole from the Stones and the Beatles.
it s funny tho, that stones copied it as well. didnt know that about last time. even more funny is that oldham s version seems to have nothing to do with the stones song. and it was obvious chazar like klein would make money out of all this hehe :)
i understand richard, sometimes you write a song based on another song and it just wouldnt let go...but then you shouldnt wonder if the original composer sues you, even if you added genius strings riff to it :)
man this is bollocks, as the oldham version has the melody that richard totally copied, he is singing the tones oldham plays, this you are not mentioning...
i like verve, i think sonnet is by far better than bittersweet symphony anyway. so the basic thing of a song, the melody that s sung, is total copy. if i were richard i would have tried to play around with my great strings hook and use is in my own song.
Either way - I like the video that ashcroft did with the tune. I'll always love the verve version. Pink Floyds political views suck but I still listen to the music.
I think it's wrong to demand 100% royalties, the verve actually input a lot of things including lyrics, and hey, thanks to them that the song got popular, because or else it would be still dead in a vinyl.
There's no originality to The Verve song. Cool song. But no originality. The most loved & recognized substance of the song is the symphonic hook. The lyrics are sophmoric and you can't find 2 people that know them. For Ashcroft to claim the keyboard riff as original because of their minor manipulation, is like when Vanilla Ice claimed his bass line was completely different in "Ice Baby".
when you say that, and I quote: "the iconic string riff and powerful lyrics, the vital ingredients to the song's success, are original compositions by Richard Ashcroft" you must be joking right? what originality? you just mentioned that the whole tune was plagiarized from Oldham arrangement! that's rubbish dude, and IMMORAL! no credit whatsoever goes to Ashcroft.
Ashcrofts string riff was not original listen from 1.37 onwards on the Oldam sample and you can hear a broken version of it but recognisably the same tune. I am against the 100% going to the Stones manager but a large sample was used. The original 50/50 should have stood legal grounds.........
Ashcroft is quite wrong in his assertion the the strings are an original composition: they simply replicate note for note the melody played on a piano that can quite clearly be heard from around 1:37 of the original. Who should hold the rights to this song? Ashcroft for the lyrics and Oldham for the melody.
"Though I walk in the shadow of the valley of evil, I have no fear, as I am the biggest bastard in the valley."
"Don't talk to me about ethics...every man makes his own. It's like a war. You choose your side early and from then on, you're being shot at. The man you beat is likely to call you unethical. So what?"
Allen Klein - Sociopath, former Beatles and Stones manager, and sole owner to the rights of 'Bittersweet Symphony'.
"Though I walk in the shadow of the valley of evil, I have no fear, as I am the biggest bastard in the valley."
"Don't talk to me about ethics...every man makes his own. It's like a war. You choose your side early and from then on, you're being shot at. The man you beat is likely to call you unethical. So what?"
Allen Klein - Former Beatles and Stones manager. Sole owner to the rights of 'Bittersweet Symphony', and Sociopath.
"Though I walk in the shadow of the valley of evil, I have no fear, as I am the biggest bastard in the valley."
"Don't talk to me about ethics...every man makes his own. It's like a war. You choose your side early and from then on, you're being shot at. The man you beat is likely to call you unethical. So what?"
Allen Klein - Sociopath. Former Beatles and Stones manager. And sole owner to the rights of 'Bittersweet Symphony'.
yeah...yeah the lyrics (which i find great) and vocal melody (which i don't think is anything special) are original, but the string section is definitely from the Andrew Oldham version of "The Last Time". It's ridiculous that the Stones got the writing credits, but it's not ridiculous that The Verve were sued. They did NOT write that string part and it really is what delivers the song.
I think Ashcroft got a really bad deal but when he says in this interview his string arranger came up with the main string line he is fabricating quite a bit. at 1:40 into the Oldham orchestra version you can here the where the main loop is lifted
the staple singers ROCK!!! oh , by the way, it was andrew loog oldham that came up with the version of the song that was copied by the verve . the last time and bittersweet symphony only share a very common chord brogression. the thing is , the stones have written dozens of great songs .as for the verve, what else besides that one song have they ever done ? see, that's why i find it kind of hard to believe they suddenly became THAT inspired ...
@Erevial How much of The Verve have you really taken the time to listen to? They haven't been around as long as the Stone's obviously but they have at least 3 or 4 outstanding albums that have influenced and inspired many, many musicians to come after them. For someone to say that Bittersweet Symphony is the only good song the Verve have written tells me that that individual has not actually taken the time to listen to and give The Verve their due attention.
This is one for the history books. 100% is unfair, but the Verve did use Oldham's sample verbatim. The intro as well, sorry. Listen to the Oldham track from 1:39-1:50, it's there. It wasn't genius buy Ashcroft's string arranger, just a bit of cleverness on his part. 80-20 should've been the split. Klien is a douche, even the Glimmer Twins would agree. Bittersweet Symphony is still one of the greatest songs ever written (borrowed).
the arrangement of the strings may be original but it is based off what the bells play in the Andrew Loog Oldham orchestral cover so it is a bite off the stones.
how short would that sample have to have been for klein to have lost the case? when the verve initially secured permission to sample "the last time," did they agree on a certain number of bars? or a certain number of seconds? or what?
at the end of the day if u agree that the verve should have been sued then Noel Gallagher shouldnt be aloud to breve, this songs shit compared to bitter sweet sinphony, so if he did rip it of it dont matter, and if the stones had any pation for rock and music, they would have realised wat a masterpiece bitter sweet sinphony was and would have felt good that his ok song helped make one of the best tunes ever wrote
The Last Time by the Rolling Stones sounds nothing like The verves song. However it is the same lyrics as a song by the staple singers. So they stole an old song and then sued someone else for stealing a song? That sounds like a song your producer made not your song? Plus they wrote the lyrics now because of that? Not only that but the verve had rights to use a sample. Sure it could be argued that its more than a sample but to get writing credits? Boils down to Rolling Stones are assholes.
He certainly did more than "sample a few bars", haha. The entire Verve song is based on the orchestral recording: rhythm, melody, the backbeat, everything. What did he expect was going to happen? Search and listen to "Andrew Oldham Orchestra- The Last Time" and see for yourself. So, the Verve added an intro; even that intro is based on the Oldham recording. It's obvious.
Next time, don't steal. When you take someone else's backing track and write lyrics over them, that's plagiarism. If they released the song without the Oldham backing track, no one would know about it. Fuck the Verve - don't steal next time. And fuck all the weenies whose parents never taught them that stealing was wrong. Sorry you had bad parents.
You're a fucking idiot. The lyrics and intro were created by Ashcroft. They simply took a small portion of an obscure orchestrated arrangement of The Last Time, which the Rolling Stones copied from the Staple Singers. So shut the fuck up and do your research before making stupid ass comments.
@JonFrumTheFirst Oldham gave permission to the Verve to sample the song on a 50/50 arrangement, which Oldham essentially sampled with permission from the Stones, who "sampled" without permission from the Staple Singers. It wasn't Oldham who screwed anyone, nor was it the Verve--it was the greedy moneysucking bastard Allen "May He Rot In Hell" Klein. Get your facts straight.
Excellent video. You have covered everything as far as I can tell and it looks like we may have come to the same conclusion. The finger should be pointed at Allen Klein. One can argue that The Rolling Stones should have gave credit to The Staples Singers for covering their version, which is another subject, but I don't see how one can blame The Rolling Stones for the lawsuit or its outcome.
Yeah, while the full string riff is not heard in the last time, many of the notes are played and it is obvious the Verve simply placed filler notes which complimented the melody well.
Intro original? What original, what genius? I mean just listen to the bells all along the song the notes are there for the intro... and if you see all the others piece of music used in it I want to see them.
By the way I think it's a great song but don't ever say that's original...
None of the arguments made in this video hold water.
1) If one band uses all or part of another band's composition, then by definition, that's plagiarism.
2) It doesn't matter here whether or not the Stones copied plagiarized from a Church band, that's an entirely separate issue.
3) It doesn't matter here that Klein made money commercially from the Stones song, while you may not like Capitalism, that's an entirely separate issue.
1. You're ignoring the grand entirety of musical history, from the Renaissance to the Rolling Stones. Co-opting, reorganizing, and the plain plagiarism of composition has been a hallmark of music forever.
2. It is the same issue.
3. It makes the biggest difference. This song came out at the wrong time and sampled a song from the wrong band. The current musical climate and favor of sampling would have supported The Verve hands down. The Stones are greedy. That's it.
It's not the Stones fault!! Hello!! It's Allen Klein's Greed..This leech also stabbed the Stones in the back...The Verve should have the rights to the song...Not the Boys fault though!!!!
These 60's music moguls have a very angrandoised vision of themselves. I had a similar experience with Micky Most - did a demo version of one of his songs and then asked him for permission to release it. He said no - then he went and used the idea for himself. Like Klein they are very possessive about their music and don't like upstarts coming along and using their material-The Verve obviously used the Stones track, but to deny them of at least 50% of the cut of royalties - I think is theft!
Informative video! I think that the Staple Singers should have also got some credit as well, as you can hear that the Rolling Stones - Last Time - is clearly in the same key too.
It somehow reminds me of the case of Black Box Vs Loleatta Holloway - when their track came out (Ride On Time) it was no.1 - they had to hastily re-record it with Marth Wash doing the vocals on it as they hadn't actually cleared the samples of Loleatta Holloways vocals!
I agree that the copyright was breeched, but I don't agree that 100% of the offending song's commercial value comes from the breech. If I were to rule on it, the paintiff would get a very small slice of the pie.
The beauty of letting Copyrights and Intellectual Property last for as long as someone can profit from it, or profit by keeping anyone else from improving on it!
Limit IP and Copyright to no longer than 20 years... or make it so expensive that the owner will only renew if it is worth it!
Are some of the interviews in this video taken from that BBC radio documentary about remixes that was on either Radio 2 or 4 (can't remember which) a few years ago?
The Verve made the best job of arranging the notes that others may or may not have used, and the notes are even older than Mick and Keef.
TheTinman47 2 weeks ago
The Stones sued Carter USM for using the words, Tuesday, Ruby and Goodbye, seams if you sings words in an order someone else sung commonly used words even if it's not the same tune the Stones can still sue. I wonder if Frankie Goes To Hollywood will sue Huey Lewis & the News and Jennifer Rush for singing the words, Love, Of, The and Power in the same order FGTH did ?. End if the day no music is truly original anymore as there are only so many notes to play and so many combinations
Shiny317 1 month ago
The Rolling Stones are a bunch of cunts, musically talented cunts, but cunts, they're not as talented as Brian Jones and they just slag him off.
babidaboopy 1 month ago
The opening string arrangement isn't that original. It sounds suspiciously similar to a riff in Quadrophenia slowed down.
fredpfarnsworth 1 month ago
I have the original LP (songbook), the Verve recorded a good track from "the book".
wpDM34 1 month ago
SHUT UP AND ENJOY THE MUSIC!
whether it's a copyright or not! Music is Music
TheCrowneJewel 1 month ago
the lesson i guess is don't fuck with the stones, even 30 years later.
JubeProductions 1 month ago
Ok... just write: Rolling stones Bitter sweet symphony original!
Oisselapathos 1 month ago
The entire situation was ironically bittersweet.
ChapterBlackSaga 1 month ago
Additionally, The Verve changed the instruments of the sampled chords and added the original beginning composition.
It's ironic because The Verve didn't make a cent from Bittersweet Symphony. Allen Klein was a slave to money and then he died!
ChapterBlackSaga 1 month ago
Allen Klein is a fucking scumbag.
Richard Ashcroft wrote 100% of the lyrics himself and should have gotten the credit. Instead, the song is credited to Jagger/Richards, WHO DIDN'T EVEN WRITE A SINGLE WORD.
The Verve negotiated a deal with the Stones to split 50% of the revenue from Bittersweet Symphony for sampling AN ORCHESTRAL ADAPTATION OF A COVER SONG. That's right, The Last Time by the Stones is a cover song from The Staple Singers, so Klein never had an argument for lack of originality.
ChapterBlackSaga 1 month ago
el riff es similar a last time de the rolling stones, porque ellos si lo usaron solo, que fue un poco mas de lo debido pero es una cancion magnifica y tambien hubo creacion en ella e innovacion en el sonido, ademas la letra es hermosa , the last time y bitter sweet simphony de the the verve , solo una muestra de la grandesa de estas dos bandas que han marcado el rock, simplemente dos bandas mejestuosas
MrPanxo22 2 months ago
intresting......
cocovixen2011 2 months ago
but then again ....its a bittersweet symphony thats life,you try to make ends meet ,youre a slave to the money, then you die.
paulopezz 2 months ago
its terrible how a band gets ripped off like this.the rolling stones couldve done something about clearing the sample.they are just cunts who rip other people off anyway.its not like they need the money.he should have just left the sample off.same chord progression but so what.so are a million other songs.alan kline was famous for ripping people off.the sweaty old scab.
paulopezz 2 months ago
I think the idea that the main string melody in BSS is "completely original" is a bit of a stretch. It's obvious it's a clever arrangement of the main string line and the melody that the "church bells" have...along with maybe a flute or something. You can hear it all together in the middle point of the ALO version...it sounds pretty close to the same progression. Really ALO should get a credit cause his version sounds nothing like the stones. And RA should get credit too. Fabrizio is right.
doublestrokeroll 3 months ago
Everybody takes a rift or two off other bands. The question is; are they ripping the original writer(s) off or are they simply taking a great sound and innovating it into something magnificent. I choose the second answer. Ashcroft is a wonderful musician, so were everybody else involved in the evolution of Bittersweet Symphony. Rather than looking at how Ashcroft copied the Stones and Stones copied whoever, instead look at how many imfamous souls have contributed to such a marvelous song :)
FabrizioCasablancasP 3 months ago
@FabrizioCasablancasP the Staples Singers and traditional music is not whoever. RA got ripped off. But so did the Staples Singers.
footprintsandsea 4 days ago
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FabrizioCasablancasP 3 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
I love "Bittersweet Symphony" and think it's a great song. I think that the string riff is also taken from or sampled off the Andrew Oldham Orchestra version too, though...Go to around 1:51 into the Andrew Oldham orchestra version and you'll hear the string riff Richard Ashcroft claims is his band's own invention...look it up what I'm talking about:
TheOriginalBrawnyMan 3 months ago
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TheOriginalBrawnyMan 3 months ago
I would say that the stole and they were caught. The riff is obviously also based on the ALO-version. And while the Stones had other iconic songs, what are the other ones of the Verve...?
That should say something...
MartinKoolhoven 3 months ago
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Devsfan202 3 months ago
Klein can rot in his fckn grave
Devsfan202 4 months ago
@Devsfan202
But they now have to deal with his son, Jody Klein.
ClassicTVMan1981X 3 months ago
@ClassicTVMan1981X Ya another money suckin j-bag! Guess there's a bit of merit to some stereotypes?
Devsfan202 3 months ago
I like the song and all, but one of the greatest songs of the 20th century? A bit overheated, don't you think?
thafoofa 4 months ago
The Verve should have taken on Klien; released it anyway then settled it in court and publicised it, there's no way a judge would assign 100% over to Klien. Respect to Ashcroft's philosophical nature but its 90% his tune and he deserves credit IMO.
petermccabe10 4 months ago
To say this song is a cover of Last Time is like saying Paper Planes is a cover of Straight to Hell. It's not. She sampled it and put her own lyrics to it. That's what Ashcroft did. Why are the Stones credited for writing this song? They had basically nothing to do with it. They've said so themselves. Also, shouldn't royalties be going to that gospel group? Now that's basically the same song.
lpycb42 5 months ago
Allen Klein u c**t.
stephenmyers99 5 months ago
@whiteej21 Well, yes, in general that's probably the classic brit attitude. But the English music press is laughably over the top.
And this song is nowhere near one of the greatest songs of the 20th century...Bob Dylan wrote most of those anyway.
Pippin76 5 months ago
@Pippin76 ...but it is Verves greatest, well at least most popular... but then they had a classic Stones melody & that orch sample. Stones wrote some good ones . BTW Bob did write a pile of good ones including the only Top 40 hit Jimi Hendrix had .
Geepsterr 5 months ago
@whiteej21 Ashcroft knew he was singing the melody to the Stones song . I think he used the sample to intentionally "get caught" . If there had been a courtroom litigation It would have been the melody that decided as in the cases of nearly all successful copyright suits . It was a very effective means in getting the industry insiders to recognize them . That reinforces much of what you have said of the industry .
Geepsterr 5 months ago
@Geepsterr "Kids have no originality" stood in my time coming up too though not quite as barren. There are always a few in every time Many never surface. If you look at my generation coming up most of our pop music was crap but a few artists were breakthrough & quite original . Just a few... and the same is true today. Lots a crap , a few gems . The "industry" isn't serving up the finest & I'm a little too caught up in my own projects to sift through it .
Geepsterr 5 months ago
@whiteej21 The vocal melody is the issue very close to "Last Time" . Say what you want about drumming up controversy but this album was their first big seller and this song is the one to make the top and "best of " lists . Just coincidence right ? Like Ashcroft said in sarcasm : The biggest hit the Stones had since Brown Sugar . What he didn't say is: My only big hit and I didn't write much of it .
Geepsterr 5 months ago
@whiteej21 . I didn't catch it at first but some one pointed it out to me. Believe me it IS nearly note for note.
As for deals cut :The reality is we don't know what went on behind closed doors nor what money changed hands . We DO know that this album was Verves commercial breakthrough . Both sides profited from the controversy . Draw your own conclusions.
Geepsterr 5 months ago
@whiteej21 Chord progressions are not subject to copyright . Virtually all songwriters share publishing royalties with their publishing company (unless a buyout or a work for hire). If Stones sold all the rights to Klein well then it is his. Now I agree that the new Ashcroft lyrics are worth something but that does not give him a right to the Stones melody at all. He needed his own melody or written permission for a derivative work .
Geepsterr 5 months ago
@whiteej21 This was NOT a suit . Ashcroft knew he "lifted" the verse melody virtually note for note and then asked for "clearance" of the string sample. He did it on purpose to make news. Most of my dealings with entertainment lawyers have been unpleasant but they call them "mouthpiece" for a reason : The unpleasant part is really rooted with whom they represent , usually the artist doesn't want to appear as the bad guy . BTW Parker didn't rip entire melodies to pass off as his own.
Geepsterr 5 months ago
@whiteej21 This was NOT a suit . Ashcroft knew he "lifted" the verse melody virtually note for note and then asked for "clearance" of the string sample. He did it on purpose to make news. Most of my dealings with entertainment lawyers have been unpleasant but they call them "mouthpiece" for a reason : The unpleasant part is really rooted with whom they represent , usually the artist doesn't want to appear as the bad guy . BTW Parker didn't rip entire melodies to pass off as his own.
Geepsterr 5 months ago
@whiteej21 Good points. Of course it's for judges to judge but attorneys specializing in creative content usually settle before it get's to a court battle . The best songwriter I have played for is also a creative content attorney. Surely Verve was advised pay whatever is being asked because you cant win . Ashcroft plagiarized the vocal melody & then added the string sample from the inst cover by which he ratted himself out , He'd likely have gotten away with just the melody .
Geepsterr 5 months ago
@Geepsterr Fact is they paid what was being asked ALL PUBLISHING & WRITERS ROYALTIES They went ahead & released it & made news of it on the premise that bad press is still good press and played the Oppressed angle . Common publicity stunt but a very clever one . I'd never have heard of these guys if this hadn't gone down.
Geepsterr 5 months ago
@whiteej21 good points you make near the end . Of course it's for judges to judge but attorneys specializing in creative content usually settle before it get's to a court battle . The best songwriter I have played for is also a creative content attorney. Surely Verve was advised pay whatever is being asked because you cant win . Ashcroft plagiarized the vocal melody & then added the string sample from the inst cover by which he ratted himself out , might have gotten away with just the melody.
Geepsterr 5 months ago
WOW thanks 4 the video
If someones should be credited as cowriter its Oldham. To me it is clear that only after the Verve MADE IT a hit, Klein stole all the credits the Stones accepted so they are equally guilty
I clearly remember the 1st time I heard this song while passing nearby a music store I jumped inside begging for the title , its so magnetic.
The biggest hit from the stones AND THE STAPLE SINGERS this days ( HA HA HA)
To me it will always belong to "THE VERVE"
MKSchrei 5 months ago
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MKSchrei 5 months ago
@whiteej21 Now that's funny . Both Oldham strings and Stones melody & no permission = a clear cut case that no judge would need a minute for a rendering. Kline told Verve 100% of the publishing . at 0:43 listen to what Ashcroft says about when he asked for clearance of the sample . Kline listening to the Verve recording , obviously heard not just sample but the verse melody to Stones This Could Ce the Last Time . It is not for us to judge what is a reasonable fee. It was Klines .
Geepsterr 5 months ago
@whiteej21 Bullshit mate, he stole the music.
DEKMAN99 5 months ago
@whiteej21 Well it's called "Deep Pockets." Take George Harrison for example, the writers for "He's so Fine" knew they had a pretty good shot at getting copyright damages from Harrison, and they did. Why? Because "My Sweet Lord" was a number one hit and George had a lot of money. In that respect, I think "My Sweet Lord" is a very original piece of music, but it does have the same melody and chord structure as "He's So Fine."
InsipidAction 5 months ago
@whiteej21 "drug and sex antics" ...Now who sounds old?
Maybe 100% is wrong, as I said Klein was a son-of-a-bitch. But I have no sympathy for The Verve (no pun intended). It would have been SO easy for them to change one note in the melody and make it an entirely new song, and Klein would have no case.
InsipidAction 5 months ago
@whiteej21 First of all I'm younger than you are (if you are 27 as you claim). Second of all, are you meaning to tell me the Rolling Stones (a band that has inspired a generation of rock 'n rollers, written dozens of classic songs) are not as revolutionary as The Verve? Gimme a break!
I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree about this. But don't forget the other part to this argument: Allen Klein was a cheap bastard who would steal money from charity. Best just to create new music from scratch
InsipidAction 5 months ago
@whiteej21 Listen, I do library music for a living. The entire industry is based on taking popular songs and changing them just enough not to get sued. There's an art to it, but even in that regard, there's still work going into rearranging chord structures, re-recording guitar parts, etc. This has been going on since the dawn of time. Keith Richards knocked off Chuck Berry, who knocked off somebody else. But sampling something is a whole different category of stealing.
InsipidAction 5 months ago
InsipidAction 5 months ago
@whiteej21 Let me ask you something, did The Verve actually create that iconic string riff in the song from scratch? (Meaning did they actually hire a string section, write up charts, and record them performing it? Or did they just lift it straight out of a track that already did that?)
Hate to break this to you, but the guitar lick in "The Last Time," that's actually Brian Jones performing it live with the session.
InsipidAction 5 months ago
nicely done
LovelyLipsMusic 5 months ago
Okay Klein was a douchebag, but I'm actually glad these guys got sewed for copyright infringement. This whole idea of stealing... sorry "Sampling" songs NEEDS TO STOP!!! I spend hours every day trying to come up with original riffs and chord sequences for songs. These guys STEAL (yes STEAL) a piece of music and pass it off as their own becoming rich and famous. Keith Richards has every right to criticize these guys.
InsipidAction 5 months ago
@InsipidAction Excuse me... but you need to remember that the Stones passed this song off as their own when it comes to the copyright, when in actual fact they stole it from the Staple Singers. In my book that is a bit more aggresive than sampling a few bars!!!
A lot of the Stones musical ideas were stolen from 60's r'n'b.
durtyfingurz 5 months ago
@durtyfingurz First of all, the Verve is not just sampling "A few bars," the melody line is the same as the Stones song. Second of all, "This May Be The Last Time" was not written by The Staples Singers. It's not even "60s r'n'b," it's a traditional Gospel song The Staples Singers rearranged. Keith admitted the inspiration came from it. Big difference between "Inspiration" and actually stealing, sorry "Sampling" a piece of music.
InsipidAction 5 months ago
Lets face it, just like hip hop , kids today just don't have a clue,on how to be original. Lol , this one hit wonder band sample the whole Andrew Loog Oldham tune. Richard Ashcroft needs to learn on how to be original and stop the sampling , that why I hate New York City hip hop .
DEKMAN99 5 months ago
still love it, don't care
Gresaaa 5 months ago
The Stones fucked The Verve, Being around for 40 years wasn't enough for them?
vtechyper 5 months ago
@vtechyper It was Allen Klein who fucked both The Stones and The Verve.
andmaketherain 5 months ago
Is it just me or does the opening riff sound very similar to Grieg's 'The Hall Of The Mountain King' if you slow it down? Check it out..
nabooster 6 months ago
Meh. I never cared that much for the song.....no matter who wrote it.
WarrenBowman 6 months ago
"One of the greatest songs of the 20th century" LMAO
Classic brit hyperbole.
Pippin76 6 months ago
Thats is nothing new with the industry but I still like the verve. :)
wendie82 6 months ago
Whored out the song can also be viewed in a way that the song lived on and reached out to a much wider audience, who cares about the money......
i heard the song for the first time in cruel intentions,
avm15101990 6 months ago
Badfinger's music survived Allen Klein; and so to will things be made right eventually for Richard Ashcroft. Klein is dead and I hope you will keep fighting.
thermionic1234567 6 months ago
but you can't see the similarity of Jagger's vocals and the orchestral version
NinetiesYouth 6 months ago
o well richie boy like you said ' ITS A BITTER SWEET SYMPHONY' THATS LIFE.. Next time get your own sample caching ££££££
mushismad 6 months ago
2:41, is a lie actually, just listen to the orchestra cover, part of it actually is exactly the same, 1:38 of the orchestra song, its the SAME exact string arrangement
jaqua524 7 months ago 5
@jaqua524 Yes Sir, in fact the 1:38 is still The Verve version with different equalization and pitch to emphatise the loop from Rolling stones ( whose version is the one in the first 9 seconds of this video). The Ashcroft's string theme is the melodic one not the harmonic... here is a link to the RS version check it out! Nice but... no melodic string theme ;-)
Oisselapathos 1 month ago
@Oisselapathos actually! if you listen to the stones, at, I believe 130 in, that melodic string theme you speak of, goes on for about 10 seconds, for two loops in the stones song...it sounds like its on a keyboard though
jaqua524 1 month ago
2:41, is a lie actually, just listen to the orchestra cover, part of it actually is exactly the same
jaqua524 7 months ago
but it helped the album 'urban hyms' sell millions anyway so the verve got the success they deserved
TheBigezee77 7 months ago
To be fair though, regardless of the money. In 10-20 years time people will listen to this record and say "yeah its by THE VERVE, they were an amazing band." Its like now. This song came out in what? 97/98? And nobody cares about a 'borrowed' sample from the Stones that led to a lawsuit. What people remember is how good the song is and who its really by. The VerVe of course. People acknowledge that the credibility of this anthem lies in the mind of Ashcroft. Thats all that matters I think.
TheLukaraptor 7 months ago 15
@TheLukaraptor They did not take the sample from the Stones. The orchestral I was a work for hire that belonged to Oldham. Ashcroft said that Kline had said it would be 100% or the song won't come out . All Ashcroft had to do is WRITE his OWN melody instead of takeing the Stones verse and remove the sample strings and have his string arranger create a replacement line . They decided to risk it . Still Verve profited selling the record, performing & lets face it the controversy made them .
Geepsterr 5 months ago
@TheLukaraptor I'm sure The Verve care slightly though about the money..
LuPESmyNIGGA 4 months ago
Surely Ashcroft would have a case here!!?
TheLukaraptor 7 months ago
To be fair it wasn't the R.Stones idea to sue the sh!t out of the Verve... they didn't move a finger for or against the case. This was their money hoarding ex-manager plan doing all the work. This Klein fella also stole from the Stones and the Beatles.
maldicientin 7 months ago
What about "Ridin Solo" by Jason Derulo? It samples Bittersweet Symphony.
Coastergeekperson04 7 months ago
tell yall what stop the battle and let the lady sing ass holes
WRI2012 7 months ago
The beginning is just an arrangement of the part that is later in the Oldham version! They owe Oldham money not the Stones. But both are great.
jperrytwigg 7 months ago
it s funny tho, that stones copied it as well. didnt know that about last time. even more funny is that oldham s version seems to have nothing to do with the stones song. and it was obvious chazar like klein would make money out of all this hehe :)
i understand richard, sometimes you write a song based on another song and it just wouldnt let go...but then you shouldnt wonder if the original composer sues you, even if you added genius strings riff to it :)
kolumbijcan 7 months ago
man this is bollocks, as the oldham version has the melody that richard totally copied, he is singing the tones oldham plays, this you are not mentioning...
i like verve, i think sonnet is by far better than bittersweet symphony anyway. so the basic thing of a song, the melody that s sung, is total copy. if i were richard i would have tried to play around with my great strings hook and use is in my own song.
kolumbijcan 7 months ago
Either way - I like the video that ashcroft did with the tune. I'll always love the verve version. Pink Floyds political views suck but I still listen to the music.
BlueColdDog 7 months ago
the stones ripped it of anyway.
Khuunt1 8 months ago
Honestly I wouldn't care. He can take the money, I'll take the music.
desasterz 8 months ago
Is that Andy Bell from the late Oasis line up saying "If I had writen Bittersweet Symphony and didn't get any money for it I'd be gutted!" ?
desasterz 8 months ago
What's important is that the music stays... "you're a slave to the money then you die", who need the money? lol.
Megadeth6633 8 months ago
I think it's wrong to demand 100% royalties, the verve actually input a lot of things including lyrics, and hey, thanks to them that the song got popular, because or else it would be still dead in a vinyl.
Megadeth6633 8 months ago
Allan Klein = C**t
waymondo1955 8 months ago
There's no originality to The Verve song. Cool song. But no originality. The most loved & recognized substance of the song is the symphonic hook. The lyrics are sophmoric and you can't find 2 people that know them. For Ashcroft to claim the keyboard riff as original because of their minor manipulation, is like when Vanilla Ice claimed his bass line was completely different in "Ice Baby".
shark3136 8 months ago 2
when you say that, and I quote: "the iconic string riff and powerful lyrics, the vital ingredients to the song's success, are original compositions by Richard Ashcroft" you must be joking right? what originality? you just mentioned that the whole tune was plagiarized from Oldham arrangement! that's rubbish dude, and IMMORAL! no credit whatsoever goes to Ashcroft.
modo203 8 months ago
Forget this... the biggest crime is Andrew Lloyd Webber stole Pink Floyd's Echoes for his Phantom of the Opera... oh well... everything is a remix...
erniehead 8 months ago 3
Man, if you're trying so hard to be objective, why ruin it all by writing "Ashcroft's string riff"? He said himself it was Will Malone's.
mantra3000 8 months ago
Any way The Rolling Stones could do something and they did not!!! They sure did got cash from this...any way Richard is the last CAPTAIN OF ROCK!!!
synes5 9 months ago
It doesn't matter Richard, you've changed the world!
drebinable 9 months ago 2
Die, Andrew Oldham, just die. Slow and uneasy, okay?
Khultan 9 months ago
its funny how on facebook only 9 people like "Allen Klein" hahahha what an asshole and the verve has nearly 600,000 fk yeah!!
MrColourful 9 months ago
Ashcrofts string riff was not original listen from 1.37 onwards on the Oldam sample and you can hear a broken version of it but recognisably the same tune. I am against the 100% going to the Stones manager but a large sample was used. The original 50/50 should have stood legal grounds.........
flyer92ify 9 months ago
Ashcroft is quite wrong in his assertion the the strings are an original composition: they simply replicate note for note the melody played on a piano that can quite clearly be heard from around 1:37 of the original. Who should hold the rights to this song? Ashcroft for the lyrics and Oldham for the melody.
mykolh 9 months ago 2
All that matters is that he signed my guitar. He gave it soul.
theinck 9 months ago
MUSIC IS POWER!!
TheRealDeal848 10 months ago
@TheRealDeal848 well said.
theinck 9 months ago
I love The Verve, I love The Stones. I simply hate the fact that something like this could happen just to pocket cash using a minimal excuse.
What sucks even more is that: (I am Hispanic by the way) many classics and great melodies suffer the same fate in my culture.
I.E. Angels from Robbie Williams which was covered by this so called Yuridia.
Please check and you will see how she ruined a perfect song.
danny2mil 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"Though I walk in the shadow of the valley of evil, I have no fear, as I am the biggest bastard in the valley."
"Don't talk to me about ethics...every man makes his own. It's like a war. You choose your side early and from then on, you're being shot at. The man you beat is likely to call you unethical. So what?"
Allen Klein - Sociopath, former Beatles and Stones manager, and sole owner to the rights of 'Bittersweet Symphony'.
DanMcCaffrey 10 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
"Though I walk in the shadow of the valley of evil, I have no fear, as I am the biggest bastard in the valley."
"Don't talk to me about ethics...every man makes his own. It's like a war. You choose your side early and from then on, you're being shot at. The man you beat is likely to call you unethical. So what?"
Allen Klein - Former Beatles and Stones manager. Sole owner to the rights of 'Bittersweet Symphony', and Sociopath.
DanMcCaffrey 10 months ago
"Though I walk in the shadow of the valley of evil, I have no fear, as I am the biggest bastard in the valley."
"Don't talk to me about ethics...every man makes his own. It's like a war. You choose your side early and from then on, you're being shot at. The man you beat is likely to call you unethical. So what?"
Allen Klein - Sociopath. Former Beatles and Stones manager. And sole owner to the rights of 'Bittersweet Symphony'.
DanMcCaffrey 10 months ago
yeah...yeah the lyrics (which i find great) and vocal melody (which i don't think is anything special) are original, but the string section is definitely from the Andrew Oldham version of "The Last Time". It's ridiculous that the Stones got the writing credits, but it's not ridiculous that The Verve were sued. They did NOT write that string part and it really is what delivers the song.
M32Steven 11 months ago
Allen DeCline, greedy Yiddish bastard!
FidelCastro128 11 months ago
NO1 OWNS NOTES !!! ASHCROFT IS GOD.....MUSIC IS POWER !!
TheRealDeal848 1 year ago
@TheRealDeal848
Amen !!! brother.
danny2mil 10 months ago
I think Ashcroft got a really bad deal but when he says in this interview his string arranger came up with the main string line he is fabricating quite a bit. at 1:40 into the Oldham orchestra version you can here the where the main loop is lifted
TheEgoLab 1 year ago
Bittersweet Synphony by The Verve, Andrew Oldham Orchestra & The Staple Singers
END OF STORY !!
jazzynthangz 1 year ago
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Prissibella1 1 year ago
ashcroft rocks
rbfyou 1 year ago
all right, not very much..a friend of mine raves about them all the time...i like ''love is noise'' though ...
Erevial 1 year ago
the staple singers ROCK!!! oh , by the way, it was andrew loog oldham that came up with the version of the song that was copied by the verve . the last time and bittersweet symphony only share a very common chord brogression. the thing is , the stones have written dozens of great songs .as for the verve, what else besides that one song have they ever done ? see, that's why i find it kind of hard to believe they suddenly became THAT inspired ...
Erevial 1 year ago
@Erevial How much of The Verve have you really taken the time to listen to? They haven't been around as long as the Stone's obviously but they have at least 3 or 4 outstanding albums that have influenced and inspired many, many musicians to come after them. For someone to say that Bittersweet Symphony is the only good song the Verve have written tells me that that individual has not actually taken the time to listen to and give The Verve their due attention.
HeavySabre70 1 year ago
Bitter sweet symphony IS just about the best song ever!! It sends shivers up my spine everytime I hear it!!
coltsuperocean10 1 year ago
This is one for the history books. 100% is unfair, but the Verve did use Oldham's sample verbatim. The intro as well, sorry. Listen to the Oldham track from 1:39-1:50, it's there. It wasn't genius buy Ashcroft's string arranger, just a bit of cleverness on his part. 80-20 should've been the split. Klien is a douche, even the Glimmer Twins would agree. Bittersweet Symphony is still one of the greatest songs ever written (borrowed).
thesleepingpolicemen 1 year ago 2
how can you say the string riff is composed by richard ashcroft? Dont you hear the strings and its melody in the oldham version?
stones6fan 1 year ago
the arrangement of the strings may be original but it is based off what the bells play in the Andrew Loog Oldham orchestral cover so it is a bite off the stones.
nestorguti2176 1 year ago
can t beleive these guys just copied the stonesand bacame famous as aresult
they never did anythig of note after this song and they then disbanded
zeprecht 1 year ago
@zeprecht Congrats you win the uneducated ass award.
AbsintheDreamer 1 year ago
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TheSquallRock 1 year ago
how short would that sample have to have been for klein to have lost the case? when the verve initially secured permission to sample "the last time," did they agree on a certain number of bars? or a certain number of seconds? or what?
wallofvideo 1 year ago
at the end of the day if u agree that the verve should have been sued then Noel Gallagher shouldnt be aloud to breve, this songs shit compared to bitter sweet sinphony, so if he did rip it of it dont matter, and if the stones had any pation for rock and music, they would have realised wat a masterpiece bitter sweet sinphony was and would have felt good that his ok song helped make one of the best tunes ever wrote
conzj484 1 year ago
If you do your homework you will learn that its not the first lawsuit that's occured with ABKCO...
DOCTORWHOTARDIS13 1 year ago
The Last Time by the Rolling Stones sounds nothing like The verves song. However it is the same lyrics as a song by the staple singers. So they stole an old song and then sued someone else for stealing a song? That sounds like a song your producer made not your song? Plus they wrote the lyrics now because of that? Not only that but the verve had rights to use a sample. Sure it could be argued that its more than a sample but to get writing credits? Boils down to Rolling Stones are assholes.
GetThisThingCrunk 1 year ago
He certainly did more than "sample a few bars", haha. The entire Verve song is based on the orchestral recording: rhythm, melody, the backbeat, everything. What did he expect was going to happen? Search and listen to "Andrew Oldham Orchestra- The Last Time" and see for yourself. So, the Verve added an intro; even that intro is based on the Oldham recording. It's obvious.
MckyMseNTarotCrds 1 year ago
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MckyMseNTarotCrds 1 year ago
Next time, don't steal. When you take someone else's backing track and write lyrics over them, that's plagiarism. If they released the song without the Oldham backing track, no one would know about it. Fuck the Verve - don't steal next time. And fuck all the weenies whose parents never taught them that stealing was wrong. Sorry you had bad parents.
JonFrumTheFirst 1 year ago
@JonFrumTheFirst I think you better listen to The Last Time by the Staple Singers
GetThisThingCrunk 1 year ago
@JonFrumTheFirst
You're a fucking idiot. The lyrics and intro were created by Ashcroft. They simply took a small portion of an obscure orchestrated arrangement of The Last Time, which the Rolling Stones copied from the Staple Singers. So shut the fuck up and do your research before making stupid ass comments.
ChapterBlackSaga 1 year ago 2
@JonFrumTheFirst Oldham gave permission to the Verve to sample the song on a 50/50 arrangement, which Oldham essentially sampled with permission from the Stones, who "sampled" without permission from the Staple Singers. It wasn't Oldham who screwed anyone, nor was it the Verve--it was the greedy moneysucking bastard Allen "May He Rot In Hell" Klein. Get your facts straight.
ShowMeConservatism 9 months ago
Excellent video. You have covered everything as far as I can tell and it looks like we may have come to the same conclusion. The finger should be pointed at Allen Klein. One can argue that The Rolling Stones should have gave credit to The Staples Singers for covering their version, which is another subject, but I don't see how one can blame The Rolling Stones for the lawsuit or its outcome.
bouncingsoul777 1 year ago
I will always thank the Verve for Bitter Sweet Symphony (still one of my all-time favs), The Stones manager can suck it.
1m1l 1 year ago
the licensing for commercials makes it way worse...
machutasty 1 year ago
where did you get the demo of Ashcroft singing to the Stones' version? I Thought it was good
Dafanmon2500 1 year ago
where did you get the demo of Ashcroft singing to the Stons' version? I Thought it was good
Dafanmon2500 1 year ago
The biggest sick joke of the whole thing is the stones were a virtual cover group .. Van Morrisons
enlighten09 1 year ago
Yeah, while the full string riff is not heard in the last time, many of the notes are played and it is obvious the Verve simply placed filler notes which complimented the melody well.
JOBoarder27 1 year ago
Intro original? What original, what genius? I mean just listen to the bells all along the song the notes are there for the intro... and if you see all the others piece of music used in it I want to see them.
By the way I think it's a great song but don't ever say that's original...
Wodashit 1 year ago
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Prissibella1 1 year ago
None of the arguments made in this video hold water.
1) If one band uses all or part of another band's composition, then by definition, that's plagiarism.
2) It doesn't matter here whether or not the Stones copied plagiarized from a Church band, that's an entirely separate issue.
3) It doesn't matter here that Klein made money commercially from the Stones song, while you may not like Capitalism, that's an entirely separate issue.
Enigma758 1 year ago
@Enigma758
1. You're ignoring the grand entirety of musical history, from the Renaissance to the Rolling Stones. Co-opting, reorganizing, and the plain plagiarism of composition has been a hallmark of music forever.
2. It is the same issue.
3. It makes the biggest difference. This song came out at the wrong time and sampled a song from the wrong band. The current musical climate and favor of sampling would have supported The Verve hands down. The Stones are greedy. That's it.
dharmalion 1 year ago 2
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Prissibella1 1 year ago
What's next to be sampled? George Martin's putrid version of And I Love Her?
jamful2 1 year ago
Ironic the lyrics of the song and the whole money
StanlyMusic 1 year ago
It's not the Stones fault!! Hello!! It's Allen Klein's Greed..This leech also stabbed the Stones in the back...The Verve should have the rights to the song...Not the Boys fault though!!!!
mickchick01 1 year ago
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Prissibella1 1 year ago
Frankly, you can't rip of the Stones and expect to get away with it.
ariesram74 1 year ago
well, the rolling stones have all rights to this song now, its all history
Humtomorrow1 1 year ago
These 60's music moguls have a very angrandoised vision of themselves. I had a similar experience with Micky Most - did a demo version of one of his songs and then asked him for permission to release it. He said no - then he went and used the idea for himself. Like Klein they are very possessive about their music and don't like upstarts coming along and using their material-The Verve obviously used the Stones track, but to deny them of at least 50% of the cut of royalties - I think is theft!
nicknameSGB 1 year ago
were could you find the version of bittersweet symphony at 3:12
AllDaySk8rs13 1 year ago
Informative video! I think that the Staple Singers should have also got some credit as well, as you can hear that the Rolling Stones - Last Time - is clearly in the same key too.
It somehow reminds me of the case of Black Box Vs Loleatta Holloway - when their track came out (Ride On Time) it was no.1 - they had to hastily re-record it with Marth Wash doing the vocals on it as they hadn't actually cleared the samples of Loleatta Holloways vocals!
Thanks for the info though! :)
DJNEWMSKI 1 year ago
I agree that the copyright was breeched, but I don't agree that 100% of the offending song's commercial value comes from the breech. If I were to rule on it, the paintiff would get a very small slice of the pie.
8649alex 1 year ago
The beauty of letting Copyrights and Intellectual Property last for as long as someone can profit from it, or profit by keeping anyone else from improving on it!
Limit IP and Copyright to no longer than 20 years... or make it so expensive that the owner will only renew if it is worth it!
sethpr 1 year ago
Your a slave to money than you die. sums up the whole thing perfectly
StanlyMusic 1 year ago
Are some of the interviews in this video taken from that BBC radio documentary about remixes that was on either Radio 2 or 4 (can't remember which) a few years ago?
variousthings 1 year ago
i say this with hand on heart you can tell just by looking at jagger that he is a supreme cunt!
lethal1960 1 year ago
@lethal1960 ignoramus!
mickchick01 1 year ago