Islam, Arabism and decoupling culture from religion: Is it possible?

[yoson25]

People should go around and circumcise everything and everyone,male,females,dogs,cat­s,bananas,turtles,junkies,jews­,elephants,armadillos,trees,ch­ickens...everyone except me because i wanna be special

[kawaiigardiner]

@TheSmugAtheist Teeheehee, thanks - when ever someone asks me about it the best thing I say is, "put Muslamic ray guns" in youtube :D

[AmetReloads]

((3))

A question that never gets an answer is, how in spite the wealth & the flourishing sciences(?),the population of the caliphate dwindle to a 3rd of the one of the Ptolemaic era (5-6 millions-Egypt) and a 4rth/5th of the roman golden age(10-12 millions-Egypt,Carthage,Cyrene­, coastal Levant).Was the caliphate unable to sustain them? (the trend continued until the 17th century when Islamic Egypt had less population than the city of Alexandria/surrounding area 2000 years before-1.5 million)

[AmetReloads]

((2))

- were ruling areas that prior to the conquest, had established : civil, political & legal cultures, advanced level of knowledge ,and wealthy cities of hundreds of thousands of people each.(WEALTH-KNOWLEDGE-PROGRES­S?)

- ruling elites were monarchs and not clergy, that deposed the first oppressive Islamic rulers with the support of natives?(TOLERANCE)

-most coastal cities/villages of south Europe,were ransacked by Saracens(of golden age), as slave trade & looting was common practice(WEALTH)

[AmetReloads]

Great points mate.

Additionally, the contribution to caliphates golden age,of: historical, economic, political & demographic realities, receive little mention in favor of a 'metaphysical' perception of early Islam.

Did it contributed to the nature&wealth of the regime, that:

-the Fatimid caliphate was a shia dynasty, ruling a christian/sunni majority (TOLERANCE)

-were taxing 10 million(early on) non-Muslims(majority until 1200 AD)(WEALTH&PROGRESS)

-weren't Arab in origins?(=/=SUPREMACIST)

...

[kawaiigardiner]

@AmetReloads Interesting points raised, I'm just in the process of uploading a video reply to three people but I'll upload a reply to the points you raised in the next 5-7 days hopefully :D

[walrusbadlystuffed]

Fascinating video. Decoupling Islam from Arabism seems like a bloody difficult task, not least because the Koran is only authentic in Arabic and so on. I've wondered before if the Koran were more widely available in vernacular languages if it would have a similar effect to the vernacular translations of the Bible by Wycliff and others. I'm not just saying that wide availability of translations would cause changes (although I think it might weaken the power of interpretation in some areas)

[walrusbadlystuffed]

@walrusbadlystuffed not least because of high levels of illiteracy, but it might catch a sort of zeitgeist in the Muslim world in the way that the Lollards presaged the Reformation. I know there are differences, but I do wonder if there's a similarity. There seems to be a certain appetite for reform, and not just in a liberal direction, within the Muslim and Arab worlds; I don't know how much of that perception is just because Islamic issues are covered more often than they used to be, but

[walrusbadlystuffed]

@walrusbadlystuffed the literature a few years ago on the Arab world tended to feature words like 'sclerosis' quite a lot.

By the way, this is DLandonCole - I started posting on my backup account because I forgot to log back into DLC!

[kawaiigardiner]

@walrusbadlystuffed You've raised some interesting points which I'm going to talk about in a video maybe on Sunday/Monday where I go further into detail regarding some of the flaws of Resa Azlan's thinking, the trouble with Irshad Manji and a few other topics; I think the greatest comparison when it comes to Islam and Arabic could be equal to that of the issue regarding leadership and whether being an Arab is a requirement - something that took up until the 15th century to be resolved.

[stellybellyboo]

I know I for one as a white female Canadian convert have had to find my own place that rectifies both my faith and my culture. To me a lot of the problem comes form the Hadiths being taken as truer than the actual Qu'ran to some Muslims. Many of the middle east view their version of Islam "true" while other versions are false instead of remembering that there is no compulsion in religion and honestly should not be.

peace,

secular Muslim girl

[kawaiigardiner]

@stellybellyboo Unfortunately what you see in the middle east is the question regarding what makes an Arab and Arab; there is one quarter that promotes nationalism where as another says that Islam should be that defining identity that binds the Arab world together. The net result is the hyper-romanticisation that takes place where the legacy of Muhammad is bound into the collective zeitgeist of the arab world in believing that they're continuing to 'carry the message of Islam' (cont.)

[kawaiigardiner]

@kawaiigardiner thus they see 'arabness' as an extension of Islam and thus 'approved by god' by virtue of Muhammad's sunnah hence we see a toxic hybrid of nationalism, Islam and culture-pride chest beating all coming together and exported around the world as being 'the definitive Islam'. What undermines the whole exercise though is that these Islam-Nationalism supporters fail to show a single instance where Muhammad tells his non-arab followers to leave their culture and arabise themselves.

[stellybellyboo]

@kawaiigardiner That is very true, even if you look at some of the interpretations of hijab, many more orthodox Muslims believe that it can't resemble the clothing of the "disbelievers" and thus reflects not the idea of hijab as being modest in what ever situation but has to be Arabic in style. To me I see it as not only counter productive to making Islam open and welcoming but also promotes misunderstanding between the two that is so deep that even some Muslims can't sort it out. cont.

[stellybellyboo]

@kawaiigardiner To me as a quranist and a supporter of secularism, the whole linking of a culture that some Muslims believe is the best to the religion that says that these things are a sin is just amazing. The dogma that some Muslims have despite the Qu'ran saying to put away dogma always leaves me aghast.

[Klingschor]

Could you make a video discussing some of the Cultural Imports that hitch a ride in Islam?

Also, where could I learn more about the debauchery of al-Andalus?

[kawaiigardiner]

@Klingschor I'd need to have a good, it was a Fora.tv documentary talking about the liberalism and tolerance of Islamic Spain; even outside of Spain one can see a direct relationship between a liberal Sultan and development then suddenly the next Sultan comes in, cracks down on liberalism, development grinds to a halt and things start to go backwards. The moments that Islam was at its high point were times where Islam was in the background rather than the foreground conducting macho posturing.

[Klingschor]

@kawaiigardiner

And then the Unitarian Moors came pouring in with from Morocco, terrorising Dhimmis and generally being ass-holes. The Catholic Inquisition was preempted in Spain by the savage persecution that the Al-Muwahideen inflicted on Christians and Jews.

[volound]

im quite curious, to what extent do you think the mess in the middle east is due to the presence of islam? (and by mess, i mean the discrepancy between the middle east and the west)

do you think the middle east would be on par with europe if it were as secular as the west?

[kawaiigardiner]

@volound I think that we'd still be in the same situation but justified through some other ideology; nationalism, socialism, fascism or some other 'ism that exists out there. The problem with the middle east is questions regarding identity still haven't been resolved; what does it mean to be an arab, how does one organise the region and if so based on what? Europe has gotten to this point after hundreds of years beating the crap out of each other, I just hope that one day maybe (cont.)

[kawaiigardiner]

@kawaiigardiner In the middle east there will be a moment of clarity and the futility of the infighting can be seen for what it is, that Egyptians will demonstrate a greater loyalty to other Egyptians of different religious backgrounds than the current clusterfuck where certain groups are loyal to out forces before they are loyal to their own country.

[socrates856]

Given that you have mentioned him, I wonder how you feel about Reza Aslan. I have kind of mixed feelings, especially after having read his article trying to do exactly this segregation of Islam and Culture in a daily beast article on adultery law, and along the way just basically mischaracterizing the religious groundings to make it seem like the problem was not religion but the social structure/politics.

[kawaiigardiner]

@socrates856 The problem with Reza Aslan is that he makes claims about 12er shia islam that really don't stack up to reality but I'd need to make a video talking specifically about the contradictions between what he says and what 12er shia doctrine actually says. To me Reza Aslan appears to take the idea that Islam is as flexible as he believes but he ignores the fact that wishful thinking doesn't necessarily follow through into what really is actually. Hopefully I can address this issue soon.

[socrates856]

@kawaiigardiner That'd be cool and it looks like we roughly agree there.