A new piece of evidence has been added to this story: -- The shroud of Oviedo. This "face cloth" matches the Turin shroud in the blood stains that covered the face of the person buried. Even the polen particles, blood type, fibers, etc. All match. This shroud of Oviedo has been proven to date back to at least 400 AD. If those two shrouds were together at it's creation, then the theory of the Turin shroud being of the time of LDV is proven wrong.
The image on the shroud is made up of myrrh which contains the carbohydrate formula C6 H10 O5. Under microscope the image is not formed by paint, but carbohydrates. Myrrh is a liquid tree resin that becomes hard and glossy when dry. Light reflective and light sensitive.
When Nicodemus coated the cloth and Jesus with 100lbs of myrrh and aloes he also made a 1st Century Film Plate. Aloes contain cellulose which react to light by forming a invisible image in reverse color. A photo of Jesus.
it makes more since that it was DaVinci on the cloth and not Jesus. Most people overlook the fact that because of where he was born Jesus probably had really dark skin plus he was a carpenter. Carpenters at the time had very large muscular builds. DaVinci who was an artist most likely didn`t work out that much.
This a typical documentary video by means of which the Europeans pretend to make fun of us (third world people). Leonardo was not mediocre, he would not have done something so mediocre. I think the European intellectual level is decreasing. I am from third world..not so third...
@Leivinn20 -I really don't understand what the Shroud has to do with the way the third world is treated by other nations? I'm from Canada, we supply the third world with $Billions of our money and services to help out!...Also, Leonardo did not have the capacity to create this relic whatsoever, that is pure fantasy at it's worst.I also don't understand your problem with the way the hands are placed on the shroud man? Please explain these things to me.
@Flagrum3 : Apparently my English is not clear enough for you. If you wish reply my "post", you can put your answers on the thread, don´t need reply to me. Again: our discussing is over.
Ok, already I resolved the problem: the man on cross is Elasticto man, just he has arms long enough to place his hands over his genitals according shown on the image. Try to do it. Even, apparently he didn´t had ass.
@Leivinn20 -You are forgetting something here;The man on the Shroud is NOT lying flat! He is in rigor mortis with the head bent forward, the chest slightly expanded, both the knees bent, one more then the other and slightly turned.One shoulder is dislocated.This info all goes to explaining most of what you are mentioning, especially the slight difference in image size (dorsal to front), its called forshortening.It also explains the ability for the hands being folded where they are.
@Leivinn20 -Your forgetting something here! The SM is not lying flat! He is in rigor mortis and his head is bent forward, his chest slightly exanded, his legs are bent at the knees, explaining the difference in height front/back and the ability for the hands to cross over where they are.This is called Forshortening.The head size 'appears' smaller because of darker linen bands...all this is Old news bro! Get up to speed.
@Flagrum3 : - absurds conjecturesIt`s quite curious the position hands was not changed by rigor mortis process ( It´s very convinient for Mid Age's morality). You don’t believe on the shroud due to somebody proved that the shroud is supernatural...apparently, you are dissociated....our discussing is over.
1) The back image is smaller than front image. 2) the head size doesn't match with body size. 3) The Vatican allowed the using of thymol for preserving the Shroud, this alters results of C14 dating, on the future. 4) it's perfectly possible to burn a blanket by mean of glasses and sunlight, in fact, the sun "prints" blurred patterns on curtains which is in front of stained glass windows. 5 According to hair direction, the body was on foot. Happy new year.
This technique is not so unusual if we consider that people used to place curtains in front of stained glass windows and there was a lot of sunlight sensitive substances during Mid Age.
@Leivinn20 The image is not 'too blurred' as a positive, it's details are almost flawless.The Chiaroscuro technic has been addressed, problem; in the middle ages no glass plates 6 feet in length were in existence or even possible, not to mention the clarity of the glass.How could an artist find a 3 to1 herringbone weave linen cloth created with 1st century technics in 1350? You should really do more reading on all the information accumulated by the experts on this relic, before denouncing it.
@Flagrum3 : The most of people have had some kind of experience which overcomes his/her capacity of understanding and perception, however, those experiences doesn't prove by themselves that they are supernatural. In short: it´s not possible identifying someone using that image. Overcome it, and you will get better. I trust on God.
@Leivinn20-I don't need to overcome anything here.I have not used the software your talking about but then again I don't need to, to see the image is "not flat".Just looking at the 'true' negative image, I can see 3D aspects.( and I'm not dillusional) Then again, take a good look at the VP-8 images.If that doesn't prove the 3D aspect of the image to you, I don't know what will (?).
@Flagrum3 : Compare the height of face with the height of shadow caused by fold of fabric, the image is flat, it means it was made using of quite bad chiaroscuro technique. No face is flat like that one. I trust on God...overcome it.
The makers of this video propose obscure chamber technique to explain Shroud. I think chiaroscuro technique could be useful too. A plate of glass with the figure drawn by mean of chiaroscuro technique could play the role of the negative plate...as the photographers make it during revealing process of any photo. This technique would be useful to explain why the image looks so flat.
@Flagrum3 : So soon as I can do it, I will do it. However, that face could match with a lot of faces of first century on Palestine. My point is "it´s no possible identify to anyone by mean of using of Shroud".
@Leivinn20 -That is not necessarily true, you must look at all evidence.Although we can never be certain 'exactly' what Jesus looked like as even in the above mentioned documentary they say a perfect likeness cannot be made.But saying that, look at all the evidence on the Shroud that protrays the suffering and other things which pertain to what scriptures tell us happened.Hand and feet wounds, side wound, head wounds, wounds from scourging.The fact the body was undoubtably wrapped... con't
@Flagrum3 ..in this cloth, but only for a time, less then 30 hours etc; All this has been formulated using calculus of probabilities against it being of 'some-other' person.All things weighed and conservatively the calculation comes to 64 Billion to 1, that this person depicted on the Shroud is some one else...that is pretty strong evidence.Put that with most evidence putting the age of the shroud 'material' and construction in 1st cent palestine makes for a strong case, which cannot be refuted.
@Flagrum3 : All your evidence is circumstantial, per example: getting a blanket coming from Palestine was not so difficult during middle age, over all, if we take in account the intent of forger and the Shroud could help collect a lot of money...simplest: the Shroud is not useful to support to idea: That one was Jesus. The image is mediocre a lot.
@Flagrum3 : I repeat, my point was "the image is too blurred to be used it for identifying of any person"...even image could be made by Devil, Holy Shroud is only a unfounded belief, any more. By the way, download Gimp 2.x, or buy Photoshop, software of images manipulating can to transform a white and black image into 3D image. in fact, this utility is quite useful to study quality of artistic techniques of chiaroscuro.
It has been proven over and over again that the Shroud image is not a creation of ART or a photograph.All methods have been tested and proved not to adhere to all the attributes of the shroud, chemically or otherwise.Many statements made by so-called experts in this film are false and not tested by scientific study by peers.Only Barrie Schwortz is speaking the truth here, truth backed by peer-reviewed documents.
It's quite curious thing that C14 analysis was not applied to blood on Shroud. Apparently the scientists become stupid as soon as they are in front of the Shroud. Besides, the Catholic Church used thymol to preserve it, the thymol alters the results of C14 analysis. The Vatican knows the truth, that blanket is false. Regardless what Vatican claims, these scientists proved there is a natural method to copy the Shroud; therefore, its supernatural origin is not necessarily true.
One BIG SCIENTIFIC FACT proving 100% the shroud is not a painting or a photograph or bar relief, or any work of art, is the True 3D coding found on the Shroud Image...There is no dissagreement on this by any expert that has studied the Shroud.Another fact; No art or photograph on earth or in history has this 3D encoding, it's impossible! Oh by the way Nicholas Allen's 'medieval photograph' has be completely debunked, as it does not meet the 'attributes' of the Shroud, chemically or otherwise.
@Flagrum3 : You are committing a mistake, the Shroud is flat in reality. The 3D image was formed by comparison between dark areas and light areas of the image. It´s possible producing a 3D image using a monochromatic photography (black and white photographs).
@Leivinn20 -Not according to 3D experts, according to experts; no photograph in existence produces a 3D rendering, which contains 3D/holographic data.Only the Shroud image has done so...That's FACT bro.The fact that the blood 'appears' to be in the foreground is quite expected has it is the darkest image on the shroud, next to the burn marks.
@Flagrum3 :Even if your statements were true, these would not prove that Shroud was printed by supernatural source, the simplest scientific answer would be "We don´t know how Shroud was printed yet". Neither we would know why the image looks so mediocre if image was printed by God..- common sense. Get Photoshop or Gimp 2.x please...
@Flagrum3 : Let me add some more. According to 3D analysis the blood spots appear on foreground, nor on the face neither on hair. It means, the blood pattern does not match the form of the image
@MrZetterlund777 Plenty of experts have also touched and studied the shround and concluded that it has to be a hoax, for reasons I've already covered.
You're being dishonest MrZetter, you're pretending to have a mountain of evidence and ignoring all of the problems with your magic cloth theory. There are real problems with the Shroud MrZetter, and this isn't even the first Shroud. You won't even acknowledge the problems.
ONLY ONE TEAM OF SCENTISTS HAD ACCESS TO THE SOT. The Vatican wouldn't dare let anyone near their precious SOT. I AM PRETENDING NOTHING. ANYTHING I HAVE SAID IS CONCLUDEDD THROUGH CLOSE EXAMINATION OF THE SOT THROUGH THE SHROUD OF TURIN RESEARCH PROJECT. Have a great life, take care of yourself, God bless you, live a long time, happy trails.
The Shroud's been examined and the findings published, there's no concensus. Anyway there's not much point in this true believer, I'm not convinced. If the cloth had been pressed against a real person the globe effect should be a problem, but with the iron relief that isn't a problem. There's no reason a convincing iron relief couldn't be made and coated with the proper blood.
Not a vatican scientist, the STURP team was a team of American scientists. Barrie Schwortz (spokes person and leader of STURP team's findings) said, "I expected to just walk in there, see the brush strokes, and then go home." You do realize there's is somewhat of a "globe effect" right? When up close, therer arent any ends to the image. It just trails off. You can't tell that from far away. Which causes a problem yet again for an iron relief. There's too much forensic detail in body damage.
@MrZetterlund777 Ok Well those findings have been published and examined, "somewhat of a glove effect" is what's predicted from an iron relief, as opposed to a full blown globe effects, anyway this is all pretty pointless. Ultimately at best you have a mystery, and I don't really see much of a mystery, you're right crucifying a man wouldn't produce the image and if it were authentic (from a real person) it should have a significant globe effect.
Om... I'm sorry, I didn't get your last post. ^_^ The parts you can visually see on the Shroud are the parts that had the closest contact to the cloth. I'll just agree to disagree. God bless you my combatitive disagreeing friend.
I assumed that's been what we've been talking about. But heat is incredibly sensitive to linen and would florence quickly. STURP tried it 30 years ago. It's really not a new hypothesis.
@MrZetterlund777 Again, and for some reason you seem to be either daft or dishonest about this, you do not have to burn an image on with an iron relief. That would make a less convincing image.
In fact you could use a clay relief, it would be easier to mold.
Prove that it's Jesus? Science will never be able to confirm for certain that it's Jesus under the cloth. But we can logically infer that, since it only matches one historical figure. No one was given a proper buirial if crucified. They'd be left up on the cross until the Romans needed the cross for another criminal and just toss the old decaying corps of the last guy into a ditch for the jackals and worms to feed off of. Jesus was only an acception because a rich man went before Pilate....
....And asked for His body to be taken down. Suprised that Jesus was already dead (not that shocking looking at the SOT) he gave Him to the man, and thee man wrapped Jesus in a fine linnen cloth. Some doubt the SOT's authenticity because it's an expensive looking peace of linnen, but that's what the gospel says. Not only that, simply crucifying a man and wrapping him wouldn't produce this image.
This is such BULL CRAP. Listen to STURP! There's no problem with the the man's body! VP8 analysis says the man had his head tilted up, looking over his chst, and his knees flexed!
Sorry pal, the front and back don't wrap around the length of the head, the face isn't distorted as it should be if wrapped around the face, the back is smaller than the front, the arms are too long, the man is abnormally tall for the time, the head is too small, the cloth is dated to the medeival period, there were other cloths, and linen was often folded in cubics shipped from the east.
You are simply a true believer, like true believers in Alien Crop Circles, nothing can change your mind.
I've explained the body's positioning a hundred times. The back is smaller because it's bent forward, it's evident that many Canaanitic men were very tall: many of them reach 1.75 m. the C-14 dating was screwed up (I've explained a hundred times) is because the ending of the cloth was re-woven in the 13th century. the materials used to even come close to producing the Shroud's image weren't even available until the 15th century, the linen cloth is measurable in cubics as I have already shown you
Yeah I'm sure you'll find a way to rationalize away any of the problems with the cloth or simply ignore them, whether you're right or not. At this point I'll just give you rope and let you hang yourself, you're already doing a good job by pretending they didn't have irons and ovens back then.
Here's a fun fact, your magic cloth isn't the only cloth from the medieval period folded in cubics, it isn't the only Jesus shroud from the period, and most of the problems with it remain un-addressed.
@Atheistx82 You are driving me bloody bonkers!!!! An iron press isn't the solution (as I've explained A MILLION TIMES) because heat florences and would have sunken deeper into the linen!!!!
I've only heard of one, and if there are others, then this one is probably the one they copied off of!! I think you're in denial!
Yeah, well first your problem is a non-problem that's already been addressed on critic's sites (google Shroud of Turn hoax) and the image could also be made by putting a thin layer of blood on the iron and pressing it, then baking it for a few seconds in an oven.
Here's the thing, you don't even address most of the problems with the cloth, you just ignore or dismiss them. I do not doubt your ability to rationalize this as a magic cloth no matter what, but i have no reason to think it's magic.
Why would you find a critic's website reliable? STURP has been studying the cloth for thirty years, it's ever so often a skeptic pops onto the scene to "re-create" the Shroud only to find out that STURP's tried it 30 years ago. The only reason they don't accept it's authenticity is because they're bias.
Well that's incredibly difficult. ^_^" when the image was brought onto the shrowd is was projected up, and projected down. The closest science can come to explaining how the image of the Man in the Shroud got there is by comparing the situation to a controlled burst of high-intensity radiation similar to the Hiroshima bomb explosion which "printed" images of incinerated people on building walls. It's basically what's so unexplainable about it. It's not like we can do it again.
Yeah, it couldn't be a stained iron, it had to be a magic ascension. That's why the head's too small for the body, had no globe effect, there's not enough spacing between the front and back images where it wraps over the head, and why the arms are too long right? Magic ascension, apparently, doesn't have to address such issues. All of the evidence stacks against this being a magic cloth, you're like a true believer in crop circles.
Iron oxide doesn't constitute the image on the shroud. Just a good magnifying glass would expose pigments in the fibrils of the linen fibers. The shoud's image was a purely surface effect. Infact, according to Barrie Schwortz, the image is easier to see from a distance, and there are no ends to the image such as a line or determination of how the image would trail off. Just 1:00 minute into this video shows the perfection of the body's image.
@MrZetterlund777 Erm, you completely misunderstood my point. Watch this video, they show how an Iron can be used to make the image without creating the globe effect. You could coat the iron with a thin layer of blood, press the cloth on it, then bake it in an oven to dry and fade it. this would solve the saturation problem, the globe effect problem, and leave on the enzymes you suggested. It would also explain why the head is too small, the spacing isn't proper, and why the arms are too long.
@MrZetterlund777 So you basically ignored everything I just said. The only way it's debunked is if you burn the image on with a hot iron. Oh but I guess this crop circle really must be from the mothership, eh Zetter?
@Atheistx82 Just please listen to the Jewish guy 3:44. Linen impacted by heat penatrates, and florences through the linen fibers. STURP's tried it 30 something years ago. And don't insult the mother ship! Her crop circles are beautiful!
I'm sorry, it's just simply obvious the blood came directly from the body. STURP's analasys shows that the stains on the Shroud are blood clot stains completely consistent with the trama of crucifixion, and they contained extremely high levels of bilirubin. Not only that, serum wouldn't even have become visible until the invention of ultraviolet floresence photography. I even have the data demonstrating how they went about measuring the man's body. There's nothing wrong with the man's anatomy.
@MrZetterlund777 Sorry Zett I'm sure it's obvious to you but it isn't obvious, fact is the blood isn't consistent with actual trauma otherwise it would saturate and there would be a glove effect around the body parts. However this was made the dimensions don't add. And any blood would work, and the person adding it wouldn't have to know about utraviolent floresence to know that adding blood to the cloth would make it more realistic.
Where are you even getting this from? Everything I've said is well documented. As fact. Recorded into science journals. I do believe the blood stains did saturate, and it's not as simple as placing blood stains. serum is the liquid component of blood. This was visible around the blood stains.
@MrZetterlund777 Zetter that this cloth even came into contact with a wounded man is not a documented fact. There's a lot of controversy over how it was made.
Isn't the image on the tips of the fibers MrZetter? A real wound should have deeply saturated the cloth, but neither this nor the globe effect is a problem for an irom molding lightly coated with blood, especially if the cloth were heated after to fade the image.
Yes, the image that constitutes the anatomy of the man only affects the very surface. However, I think the blood stains were saturated into the cloth. Just because there's "lots of controversy over how it's made" doesn't mean anything. It has to do with religion, there's bound to be controversy and people who won't agree until the day they die. Once Mr Schwortz was in a debate and the skeptic said "It cant be real." Barrie said, "Ok, why not?" And he replied, "Because it's too perfect."
Your faith in a magic cloth is astonishing, but this is getting tiresome. There are numerous problems with the shroud, for instance the spacing between the front and back images do not wrap the full length of the head, the head is too small, the arms are too long, there are problems with the globe effect, there were a lot of other shrouds at the time, old linen and silk was often imported, there are alternative explanations for the blood stains ect
It requires almost no faith. It is you my friend who think that some Templar had an opifany and said "Booya! I'll put this serum stain here, and centuries from now THEY'LL FIND IT!" There's nothing wrong with the body's image. Just look 3:44 minutes into this video. Or if you want, I can email you the methods they used to measure the body. As for the globe effect, the image has somewhat of a globe effect, nothing that's noticable from a distance, though.
@MrZetterlund777 Again, it wouldn't take a genius to put real blood on a fake shroud. If you're trying to fake a murder you try to make it look convincing, if you have pig's blood on hand you're likely going to use it.
There are several things wrong with the body's image, I've already gone over some of them. You're just ignoring them for an optical illusion. If it had been a real body there should be a significant globe effect, what we have instead is consistent with an iron relief.
@Atheistx82 The blood tested human. You can't fake serum. Serum surrounds the wound while the person is bleeding. I really don't see how you're so convinced the body's image isn't distorted in any way. I've offered to email you the methods taken to measure the body. To be honest, I'm getting tired of arguing about this. We make up the entirety of the comments section for this video.
@MrZetterlund777 Ok first, where did you hear that the blood tested human? Second, even if it did any human's blood would do.
If the cloth were placed upon a real man, the image should be incredibly distorted due to the globe effect, not just on the face but on the body. The head is also still too small for the body, the arms are also still too long, and your email didn't address these issues.
If you want to believe the cloth is magic fine, but why should I?
@Atheistx82 I heard it I believe in "Shroud of Turin: New Evidence 2009" -? It's not the blood that matters so much, but the serum around the blood clots. Not only that, the high levels of bilirubin that form after someone is severely tortured.
I HAVEN'T EVEN EMAILED YOU YET!
*sigh* Why don't you go to the Shroud of Turin official website and contact Barrie Schwortz.
@MrZetterlund777 Hey why don't I also visit the answers in genesis website? While I'm at it, maybe I should check out the reptilian agenda.
Seriously, blood clots, MrZetter I know you're a true believer but if the best you have is clotted blood serum that doesn't do your Christ Cloth theory much credit nor does it answer any of the problems with the shroud.
If anything it only raises more problems. Unless the cloth was baked it should saturate the entire fibers.
@Atheistx82 I'm afraid the SOT doesn't fit into the same catagory as creation science and Coast to Coast fanatical extra terrestrial assertions. There are two reasons I know the SOT is worthy science (apart from creation science) #1: It was on the Discovery channel for more than 3 minutes and @2: Kent Hovind rejects it. lol, so now you know it's real science. :p
@MrZetterlund777 Being on the discovery network really doesn't prove anything. When's the last time you watched the Discovery channel anyway, "Ghost Science" "Axe Men" "Swamp Loggers" "Monster Quest" "American Hauntings" "UFOs" "Alien Encounters"
And don't even get me started on the History channel and TLC. But anyway, there are a number of problems with the shroud and there's no accounting for magic now is there?
Well on the Discovery channel, creation science is looked les than for four seconds and tossed aside as silly. But the REAL proof is that Kent Hovint rejects it. Therefore, you KNOW it's scientific.
The documentory is called, "Shroud of Turin: New Evidence 2009." I subscribed to a channel recently that has all Shroud documentories with copyright permition. GOD BLESS BARRIE SCHWORTZ!!!!Magic on the cloth? No, but a mirical. :)
LMAO I saw that, are you kidding? What actual evidence did it provide for a magic tomb cloth?
We already know that there were many shrouds before the Shroud of Turin was found, we already know that cloth was imported from the east and folded in cubits, we already know that the image is on the surface tips of the fibers (as if baked), we already know that there are problems with the globe effect, we already know that bar reliefs were used and they could be coated (with blood for example).
Science can never confirm that is was brought on by ressurection, but when asked when the technology to make the image would be available, Barrie Schwortz said "50 years from NOW."
@MrZetterlund777 Yeah because to make a 3d image with a bar relief and some blood and pigment, lightly baked to fade the image, requires future technology 50 years off right?
@Atheistx82 Bar relief wasn't used. You can't fake serum and the levels of bilirubin in the blood. If a bar relief was used, the heat would have penetrated the linen surface. You CANNOT simply put serum on a bar relief, nor can you expect such high levels of bilirubin. Pigment doesn't constitute the Shroud's image. This is beginner's knowledge for Shroud studiers.
@MrZetterlund777 Actually a Bar relief seems most likely given everything we know about the cloth. You are pretending that the image would have to be burned on with a bar relief, ignoring other ways one could be used to imprint an image.
You don't need to fake the serum, you could get blood from any wounded animal, including a prisoner, and blood naturally clots on it's own. Pigment doesn't constitute the blood, but what about the rest of the image?
I think your best case is the globe effect. However, I do remember the gospels meantioning how the women prepared spices and perfumes but went home in respect to the Sabbath. It is possible they left the body unwrapped before they left. But there's nothing concrete, the gospels are so interpritive.
By the way, pollen samples taken from the Shroud show it was from Jerusalem. So I dunno what the knowledge of any imported goods are gonna do. And I haven't seen a single picture of another SOT.
@MrZetterlund777 Yeah well the gospels don't solve the problem of the globe effect at all, and we've already been over the fact that a lot of old linen and silk was imported from that area and folded in cubits so the pollen doesn't help your magic cloth theory. I'm sure given that you only seem to view pro-shroud sources it wouldn't be mentioned that there were other shrouds, this video covers some of them early on. The Vatican knows, that's one reason they won't declare the shroud a holy relic.
Look, obviously you're not going to be convinced by forensic science. It's amazing that you can't comprehend why the Shroud of Turin is so up held as unique to say the least. It would solve the globe effect if they simply folded the cloth over him and put off wrapping Him up again so they could rush home before the Sabbath came. To get serum, you'd have to press the cloth directly onto whatever you got the blood from before putting the image on there.
@MrZetterlund777 You ignore everything wrong with your magic shroud theory and pretend to have a concrete case. This is pretty pointless, you won't even acknowledge the problems.
And what's the problem with pressing a cloth on a blood covered iron? Nothing. And this whole thing about torture, you don't have to torture someone to get the serum and some clotted blood, but even if you did this is the medieval period we're talking about, torture was common practice.
Not just torture, crucifixion. There are bruisses and cuts and swelling all the way down this man's body. The left eye, swollen, the left buttock, swollen, the back, ripped to shreds, the shoulder irritated by carrying large wooden object, all concluded analysis of the SOT. The practice of crucifixion was lost in midieval times, that's why all crucifixion pictures of Jesus had the nail through the center of the palm instead of through the lower part of the hand, through the wrist.
I doubt anyone would have comprehend the nesessity (however you spell that) to torture someone or something before using it's blood. It's completely obvious that someone was physically crucified underneath the SOT. There's too much to confirm this. And it's also well known that pigment doesn't constitute the Shroud's image. But you're going to remain unconvinced, so I'm just going to drop it.
Linen was imported?! Linen was necessary for the Jewish acustom to wrap bodies in. Linen is meantioned in the Old Testament too. I've never seen one of these "other shrouds." Understand, I'm hardly making a leap of faith. The reason I'm so defensive about the Shroud of Turin is because every time it's about to go on display or what not, skeptics prounce all over it, and people become sheeple to what they say! As if the only research team to have ever had physical contact with it are crazies!
@MrZetterlund777 Linen was imported throughout much of history and it was often folded into cubits. What do I care that it's mentioned? There were several other shrouds, the Shroud of Turin wasn't the first and it's not the first hoax, and yes you are taking a leap of faith. Your entire belief about the magic cloth is based on a mystery, and there are numberous problems with it that have never been addressed.
And Barrie said "Oh, so if it were less perfect, then you'd believe it?" "Well, no." he says. :p Think of how controversial evolution is. It's basically a proven study that animals can change past their current state, yet many reject the idea because of "problems" they see with this.
And don't even start trying to push that "you don't even adress the problems... you just ignore or dismiss" on me, I'm certain I know more about the Shroud than you or the founders of these silly websites.
What if for example, I took a 2000-year old hanky from Palestine, imprinted my posterior on it, and then bury it somewhere on the Holy Land; what will happen? Scientists, archaeologists, and experts will just quote what facts they could obtain from it. Alas those of faith will think(or guess)this is actually an image of Jesus' butt! LOL
I agree. The facts speak for themselves. Standard scientific analyses have evidences that lean towards the shroud as being a forgery; nothing more. As for faith, it is nothing more than conjecture, or simply guesswork!
Well you've demonstrated your overwhelming ignorance about the study of the Shroud! All the facts lean to it being real! This is just bull crap! We have documents reguarding the Shroud of Turin pre-dating the 13th century recommended documentory:
watch?v=Vj0DXYQWPDw
the reason the Carbon14dating dates it to that century is because it was rewoven to be preserved.
I want facts not opinions. I haven't been to the moon, but I'm prepared to tell all of those who believe it's made of green cheese that they are wrong. Same goes for people who believe that this cloth is 2000 years old and not a 13th-14th century painting. The church has been searching for something - anything really, - to hang on to ,now that science has proved their faith and opinions to be wrong.
wow how can you all belief that Leo painted or burned it or what ever he did to get the image on the shroud
but if you all see the title with shroud of Turin in different title and if you just have common sense ( you don't have to be highly educated) you will see that there is no prove yet that the shroud is a Fake or a forgery
if you see the one on the radio carbon14dating you will see that it's around 1280-1300 AD and this is the restored/repaired part that was done in 14-15 century
One thing is for sure nobody knows how the Son of GOD was look like the bilbe does not describe his physical aspect so there are not detail of him. His picture as we known was made during the middle age by Da Vince or someoneelse,so shroud of Turin is fake.
It's ironic that the unbelievers who made this film used people of science who believe the shroud is authentic and carefully edited them. They didn't happen to mention this. They will do anything they can to bring down Christ with their nonsense, Real scientists say it's the true burial cloth of Christ. So get over it- get on your knees and pray!
Whoa - da vinci was good painting a picture, getting it to turn up so we could see it a a later date. putting pollens on it that correspond to it being the burial cloth of Jesus. and doing it so it would have a 3d image and blood type and roman coins deciphened on the eyes later!. These athesists even paid someone £1,000000 to prove it fake and gave him a chair in a university if he would say its a fake. Thats because they hate Jesus, but he is watching them and will judge them!
First time I saw a photo of this as a kid (I was at the time in the hands of religious fanatics) I thought - 'that's a fake!' It just looks it, doesn't it? The early photosensitive chemicals notion explains how it was done. Also, I would guess, Leonardo had invented some kind of air brush technique for his later paintings. After all- in our time - the airbrush was invented to 'de-wrinkle' early b/w photo portraits. Clever old bugger tho'... and silly buggers who fell for his 'trickery'.
/hello... this is interesting... But other Data more so.... Never foget that the "unknown... is only a reflection of he "unknown". /i cannot go into the kammera (obsdcura). F/ck Leonardo! I was him & him was I... don't ever try to explain a genious...
What kind of heat would that be, radiation? Wouldn't that be dangerous to anyone guarding the tomb? Especially if its enough to burn an image on the shroud?
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A new piece of evidence has been added to this story: -- The shroud of Oviedo. This "face cloth" matches the Turin shroud in the blood stains that covered the face of the person buried. Even the polen particles, blood type, fibers, etc. All match. This shroud of Oviedo has been proven to date back to at least 400 AD. If those two shrouds were together at it's creation, then the theory of the Turin shroud being of the time of LDV is proven wrong.
ZerpaLuis 2 weeks ago
The image on the shroud is made up of myrrh which contains the carbohydrate formula C6 H10 O5. Under microscope the image is not formed by paint, but carbohydrates. Myrrh is a liquid tree resin that becomes hard and glossy when dry. Light reflective and light sensitive.
When Nicodemus coated the cloth and Jesus with 100lbs of myrrh and aloes he also made a 1st Century Film Plate. Aloes contain cellulose which react to light by forming a invisible image in reverse color. A photo of Jesus.
GoodShepard007 1 month ago
it makes more since that it was DaVinci on the cloth and not Jesus. Most people overlook the fact that because of where he was born Jesus probably had really dark skin plus he was a carpenter. Carpenters at the time had very large muscular builds. DaVinci who was an artist most likely didn`t work out that much.
LittleRavenSonofMatt 11 months ago
@LittleRavenSonofMatt
The scolar said towards the end that it was most likely not Leonardo's body.
BoboSnowman 8 months ago
This a typical documentary video by means of which the Europeans pretend to make fun of us (third world people). Leonardo was not mediocre, he would not have done something so mediocre. I think the European intellectual level is decreasing. I am from third world..not so third...
Leivinn20 1 year ago
@Leivinn20 -I really don't understand what the Shroud has to do with the way the third world is treated by other nations? I'm from Canada, we supply the third world with $Billions of our money and services to help out!...Also, Leonardo did not have the capacity to create this relic whatsoever, that is pure fantasy at it's worst.I also don't understand your problem with the way the hands are placed on the shroud man? Please explain these things to me.
Flagrum3 1 year ago
@Flagrum3 : Apparently my English is not clear enough for you. If you wish reply my "post", you can put your answers on the thread, don´t need reply to me. Again: our discussing is over.
Leivinn20 1 year ago
@Leivinn20 -Hey thats fine with me.
Flagrum3 1 year ago
Ok, already I resolved the problem: the man on cross is Elasticto man, just he has arms long enough to place his hands over his genitals according shown on the image. Try to do it. Even, apparently he didn´t had ass.
Leivinn20 1 year ago
@Leivinn20 -You are forgetting something here;The man on the Shroud is NOT lying flat! He is in rigor mortis with the head bent forward, the chest slightly expanded, both the knees bent, one more then the other and slightly turned.One shoulder is dislocated.This info all goes to explaining most of what you are mentioning, especially the slight difference in image size (dorsal to front), its called forshortening.It also explains the ability for the hands being folded where they are.
Flagrum3 1 year ago
@Leivinn20 -Your forgetting something here! The SM is not lying flat! He is in rigor mortis and his head is bent forward, his chest slightly exanded, his legs are bent at the knees, explaining the difference in height front/back and the ability for the hands to cross over where they are.This is called Forshortening.The head size 'appears' smaller because of darker linen bands...all this is Old news bro! Get up to speed.
Flagrum3 1 year ago
@Flagrum3 : - absurds conjecturesIt`s quite curious the position hands was not changed by rigor mortis process ( It´s very convinient for Mid Age's morality). You don’t believe on the shroud due to somebody proved that the shroud is supernatural...apparently, you are dissociated....our discussing is over.
Leivinn20 1 year ago
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Leivinn20 1 year ago
1) The back image is smaller than front image. 2) the head size doesn't match with body size. 3) The Vatican allowed the using of thymol for preserving the Shroud, this alters results of C14 dating, on the future. 4) it's perfectly possible to burn a blanket by mean of glasses and sunlight, in fact, the sun "prints" blurred patterns on curtains which is in front of stained glass windows. 5 According to hair direction, the body was on foot. Happy new year.
Leivinn20 1 year ago
This technique is not so unusual if we consider that people used to place curtains in front of stained glass windows and there was a lot of sunlight sensitive substances during Mid Age.
Leivinn20 1 year ago
@Leivinn20 The image is not 'too blurred' as a positive, it's details are almost flawless.The Chiaroscuro technic has been addressed, problem; in the middle ages no glass plates 6 feet in length were in existence or even possible, not to mention the clarity of the glass.How could an artist find a 3 to1 herringbone weave linen cloth created with 1st century technics in 1350? You should really do more reading on all the information accumulated by the experts on this relic, before denouncing it.
Flagrum3 1 year ago
@Flagrum3 : The most of people have had some kind of experience which overcomes his/her capacity of understanding and perception, however, those experiences doesn't prove by themselves that they are supernatural. In short: it´s not possible identifying someone using that image. Overcome it, and you will get better. I trust on God.
Leivinn20 1 year ago
@Leivinn20-I don't need to overcome anything here.I have not used the software your talking about but then again I don't need to, to see the image is "not flat".Just looking at the 'true' negative image, I can see 3D aspects.( and I'm not dillusional) Then again, take a good look at the VP-8 images.If that doesn't prove the 3D aspect of the image to you, I don't know what will (?).
Flagrum3 1 year ago
@Flagrum3 : Compare the height of face with the height of shadow caused by fold of fabric, the image is flat, it means it was made using of quite bad chiaroscuro technique. No face is flat like that one. I trust on God...overcome it.
Leivinn20 1 year ago
@Flagrum3 : the 3D image produced by PC looks too flat, the human being faces are not flat....overcome it and you will get better...
Leivinn20 1 year ago
The makers of this video propose obscure chamber technique to explain Shroud. I think chiaroscuro technique could be useful too. A plate of glass with the figure drawn by mean of chiaroscuro technique could play the role of the negative plate...as the photographers make it during revealing process of any photo. This technique would be useful to explain why the image looks so flat.
Leivinn20 1 year ago
The image is such blurred than it would be impossible use it to identify the man printed on. At seem, catholics don´t realize about.
Leivinn20 1 year ago
@Leivinn20 -Please search here on YouTube; documentary; The True face of Jesus...View all parts, then tell me what you think...thanks.
Flagrum3 1 year ago
@Flagrum3 : So soon as I can do it, I will do it. However, that face could match with a lot of faces of first century on Palestine. My point is "it´s no possible identify to anyone by mean of using of Shroud".
Leivinn20 1 year ago
@Leivinn20 -That is not necessarily true, you must look at all evidence.Although we can never be certain 'exactly' what Jesus looked like as even in the above mentioned documentary they say a perfect likeness cannot be made.But saying that, look at all the evidence on the Shroud that protrays the suffering and other things which pertain to what scriptures tell us happened.Hand and feet wounds, side wound, head wounds, wounds from scourging.The fact the body was undoubtably wrapped... con't
Flagrum3 1 year ago
@Flagrum3 ..in this cloth, but only for a time, less then 30 hours etc; All this has been formulated using calculus of probabilities against it being of 'some-other' person.All things weighed and conservatively the calculation comes to 64 Billion to 1, that this person depicted on the Shroud is some one else...that is pretty strong evidence.Put that with most evidence putting the age of the shroud 'material' and construction in 1st cent palestine makes for a strong case, which cannot be refuted.
Flagrum3 1 year ago
@Flagrum3 : All your evidence is circumstantial, per example: getting a blanket coming from Palestine was not so difficult during middle age, over all, if we take in account the intent of forger and the Shroud could help collect a lot of money...simplest: the Shroud is not useful to support to idea: That one was Jesus. The image is mediocre a lot.
Leivinn20 1 year ago
@Flagrum3 : I repeat, my point was "the image is too blurred to be used it for identifying of any person"...even image could be made by Devil, Holy Shroud is only a unfounded belief, any more. By the way, download Gimp 2.x, or buy Photoshop, software of images manipulating can to transform a white and black image into 3D image. in fact, this utility is quite useful to study quality of artistic techniques of chiaroscuro.
Leivinn20 1 year ago
It has been proven over and over again that the Shroud image is not a creation of ART or a photograph.All methods have been tested and proved not to adhere to all the attributes of the shroud, chemically or otherwise.Many statements made by so-called experts in this film are false and not tested by scientific study by peers.Only Barrie Schwortz is speaking the truth here, truth backed by peer-reviewed documents.
Flagrum3 1 year ago
@Marena73 : If it was a pre-photography photograph from Da Vinci then how does the blood and pollen get burned into the image?, - trade.
Leivinn20 1 year ago
@Marena73 : That´s circumstantial evidence.
Leivinn20 1 year ago
It's quite curious thing that C14 analysis was not applied to blood on Shroud. Apparently the scientists become stupid as soon as they are in front of the Shroud. Besides, the Catholic Church used thymol to preserve it, the thymol alters the results of C14 analysis. The Vatican knows the truth, that blanket is false. Regardless what Vatican claims, these scientists proved there is a natural method to copy the Shroud; therefore, its supernatural origin is not necessarily true.
Leivinn20 1 year ago
One BIG SCIENTIFIC FACT proving 100% the shroud is not a painting or a photograph or bar relief, or any work of art, is the True 3D coding found on the Shroud Image...There is no dissagreement on this by any expert that has studied the Shroud.Another fact; No art or photograph on earth or in history has this 3D encoding, it's impossible! Oh by the way Nicholas Allen's 'medieval photograph' has be completely debunked, as it does not meet the 'attributes' of the Shroud, chemically or otherwise.
Flagrum3 1 year ago
@Flagrum3 : You are committing a mistake, the Shroud is flat in reality. The 3D image was formed by comparison between dark areas and light areas of the image. It´s possible producing a 3D image using a monochromatic photography (black and white photographs).
Leivinn20 1 year ago
@Leivinn20 -Not according to 3D experts, according to experts; no photograph in existence produces a 3D rendering, which contains 3D/holographic data.Only the Shroud image has done so...That's FACT bro.The fact that the blood 'appears' to be in the foreground is quite expected has it is the darkest image on the shroud, next to the burn marks.
Flagrum3 1 year ago
@Flagrum3 :Even if your statements were true, these would not prove that Shroud was printed by supernatural source, the simplest scientific answer would be "We don´t know how Shroud was printed yet". Neither we would know why the image looks so mediocre if image was printed by God..- common sense. Get Photoshop or Gimp 2.x please...
Leivinn20 1 year ago
@Flagrum3 : Let me add some more. According to 3D analysis the blood spots appear on foreground, nor on the face neither on hair. It means, the blood pattern does not match the form of the image
Leivinn20 1 year ago
If you can't believe the only team of scientists to have physically touched and studied the Shroud, you won't believe me. Take care, and God bless.
MrZetterlund777 2 years ago
@MrZetterlund777 Plenty of experts have also touched and studied the shround and concluded that it has to be a hoax, for reasons I've already covered.
You're being dishonest MrZetter, you're pretending to have a mountain of evidence and ignoring all of the problems with your magic cloth theory. There are real problems with the Shroud MrZetter, and this isn't even the first Shroud. You won't even acknowledge the problems.
Atheistx82 2 years ago
ONLY ONE TEAM OF SCENTISTS HAD ACCESS TO THE SOT. The Vatican wouldn't dare let anyone near their precious SOT. I AM PRETENDING NOTHING. ANYTHING I HAVE SAID IS CONCLUDEDD THROUGH CLOSE EXAMINATION OF THE SOT THROUGH THE SHROUD OF TURIN RESEARCH PROJECT. Have a great life, take care of yourself, God bless you, live a long time, happy trails.
MrZetterlund777 2 years ago
Vatican Scientist?
The Shroud's been examined and the findings published, there's no concensus. Anyway there's not much point in this true believer, I'm not convinced. If the cloth had been pressed against a real person the globe effect should be a problem, but with the iron relief that isn't a problem. There's no reason a convincing iron relief couldn't be made and coated with the proper blood.
Prove that it's even Jesus on the cloth.
Atheistx82 2 years ago
Not a vatican scientist, the STURP team was a team of American scientists. Barrie Schwortz (spokes person and leader of STURP team's findings) said, "I expected to just walk in there, see the brush strokes, and then go home." You do realize there's is somewhat of a "globe effect" right? When up close, therer arent any ends to the image. It just trails off. You can't tell that from far away. Which causes a problem yet again for an iron relief. There's too much forensic detail in body damage.
MrZetterlund777 2 years ago
@MrZetterlund777 Ok Well those findings have been published and examined, "somewhat of a glove effect" is what's predicted from an iron relief, as opposed to a full blown globe effects, anyway this is all pretty pointless. Ultimately at best you have a mystery, and I don't really see much of a mystery, you're right crucifying a man wouldn't produce the image and if it were authentic (from a real person) it should have a significant globe effect.
Atheistx82 2 years ago
Globe even, damn my butterfingers
Atheistx82 2 years ago
Om... I'm sorry, I didn't get your last post. ^_^ The parts you can visually see on the Shroud are the parts that had the closest contact to the cloth. I'll just agree to disagree. God bless you my combatitive disagreeing friend.
MrZetterlund777 2 years ago
@MrZetterlund777 A relief would also create such an image, as displayed in this very video.
Atheistx82 2 years ago
I assumed that's been what we've been talking about. But heat is incredibly sensitive to linen and would florence quickly. STURP tried it 30 years ago. It's really not a new hypothesis.
MrZetterlund777 2 years ago
@MrZetterlund777 Again, and for some reason you seem to be either daft or dishonest about this, you do not have to burn an image on with an iron relief. That would make a less convincing image.
In fact you could use a clay relief, it would be easier to mold.
Atheistx82 2 years ago
Prove that it's Jesus? Science will never be able to confirm for certain that it's Jesus under the cloth. But we can logically infer that, since it only matches one historical figure. No one was given a proper buirial if crucified. They'd be left up on the cross until the Romans needed the cross for another criminal and just toss the old decaying corps of the last guy into a ditch for the jackals and worms to feed off of. Jesus was only an acception because a rich man went before Pilate....
MrZetterlund777 2 years ago
....And asked for His body to be taken down. Suprised that Jesus was already dead (not that shocking looking at the SOT) he gave Him to the man, and thee man wrapped Jesus in a fine linnen cloth. Some doubt the SOT's authenticity because it's an expensive looking peace of linnen, but that's what the gospel says. Not only that, simply crucifying a man and wrapping him wouldn't produce this image.
MrZetterlund777 2 years ago
I'm sorry, not 3:44 it's 0:44!
MrZetterlund777 2 years ago
This is such BULL CRAP. Listen to STURP! There's no problem with the the man's body! VP8 analysis says the man had his head tilted up, looking over his chst, and his knees flexed!
MrZetterlund777 2 years ago
Sorry pal, the front and back don't wrap around the length of the head, the face isn't distorted as it should be if wrapped around the face, the back is smaller than the front, the arms are too long, the man is abnormally tall for the time, the head is too small, the cloth is dated to the medeival period, there were other cloths, and linen was often folded in cubics shipped from the east.
You are simply a true believer, like true believers in Alien Crop Circles, nothing can change your mind.
Atheistx82 2 years ago
I've explained the body's positioning a hundred times. The back is smaller because it's bent forward, it's evident that many Canaanitic men were very tall: many of them reach 1.75 m. the C-14 dating was screwed up (I've explained a hundred times) is because the ending of the cloth was re-woven in the 13th century. the materials used to even come close to producing the Shroud's image weren't even available until the 15th century, the linen cloth is measurable in cubics as I have already shown you
MrZetterlund777 2 years ago
Yeah I'm sure you'll find a way to rationalize away any of the problems with the cloth or simply ignore them, whether you're right or not. At this point I'll just give you rope and let you hang yourself, you're already doing a good job by pretending they didn't have irons and ovens back then.
Here's a fun fact, your magic cloth isn't the only cloth from the medieval period folded in cubics, it isn't the only Jesus shroud from the period, and most of the problems with it remain un-addressed.
Atheistx82 2 years ago
@Atheistx82 You are driving me bloody bonkers!!!! An iron press isn't the solution (as I've explained A MILLION TIMES) because heat florences and would have sunken deeper into the linen!!!!
I've only heard of one, and if there are others, then this one is probably the one they copied off of!! I think you're in denial!
MrZetterlund777 2 years ago
Yeah, well first your problem is a non-problem that's already been addressed on critic's sites (google Shroud of Turn hoax) and the image could also be made by putting a thin layer of blood on the iron and pressing it, then baking it for a few seconds in an oven.
Here's the thing, you don't even address most of the problems with the cloth, you just ignore or dismiss them. I do not doubt your ability to rationalize this as a magic cloth no matter what, but i have no reason to think it's magic.
Atheistx82 2 years ago
Shroud of Turin Hoax even
Atheistx82 2 years ago
Why would you find a critic's website reliable? STURP has been studying the cloth for thirty years, it's ever so often a skeptic pops onto the scene to "re-create" the Shroud only to find out that STURP's tried it 30 years ago. The only reason they don't accept it's authenticity is because they're bias.
MrZetterlund777 2 years ago
So explain the globe effect.
Atheistx82 2 years ago
Well that's incredibly difficult. ^_^" when the image was brought onto the shrowd is was projected up, and projected down. The closest science can come to explaining how the image of the Man in the Shroud got there is by comparing the situation to a controlled burst of high-intensity radiation similar to the Hiroshima bomb explosion which "printed" images of incinerated people on building walls. It's basically what's so unexplainable about it. It's not like we can do it again.
MrZetterlund777 2 years ago
Yeah, it couldn't be a stained iron, it had to be a magic ascension. That's why the head's too small for the body, had no globe effect, there's not enough spacing between the front and back images where it wraps over the head, and why the arms are too long right? Magic ascension, apparently, doesn't have to address such issues. All of the evidence stacks against this being a magic cloth, you're like a true believer in crop circles.
Atheistx82 2 years ago
Iron oxide doesn't constitute the image on the shroud. Just a good magnifying glass would expose pigments in the fibrils of the linen fibers. The shoud's image was a purely surface effect. Infact, according to Barrie Schwortz, the image is easier to see from a distance, and there are no ends to the image such as a line or determination of how the image would trail off. Just 1:00 minute into this video shows the perfection of the body's image.
MrZetterlund777 2 years ago
@MrZetterlund777 Erm, you completely misunderstood my point. Watch this video, they show how an Iron can be used to make the image without creating the globe effect. You could coat the iron with a thin layer of blood, press the cloth on it, then bake it in an oven to dry and fade it. this would solve the saturation problem, the globe effect problem, and leave on the enzymes you suggested. It would also explain why the head is too small, the spacing isn't proper, and why the arms are too long.
Atheistx82 2 years ago
So are you basically pointing to the bar-relief? Barrie Schwortz debunks this 3:44 minutes into the video.
MrZetterlund777 2 years ago
@MrZetterlund777 So you basically ignored everything I just said. The only way it's debunked is if you burn the image on with a hot iron. Oh but I guess this crop circle really must be from the mothership, eh Zetter?
Atheistx82 2 years ago
@Atheistx82 Just please listen to the Jewish guy 3:44. Linen impacted by heat penatrates, and florences through the linen fibers. STURP's tried it 30 something years ago. And don't insult the mother ship! Her crop circles are beautiful!
MrZetterlund777 2 years ago
@MrZetterlund777 Again, you don't have to burn the image on. Try reading over what I just said again.
Atheistx82 2 years ago
I'm sorry, it's just simply obvious the blood came directly from the body. STURP's analasys shows that the stains on the Shroud are blood clot stains completely consistent with the trama of crucifixion, and they contained extremely high levels of bilirubin. Not only that, serum wouldn't even have become visible until the invention of ultraviolet floresence photography. I even have the data demonstrating how they went about measuring the man's body. There's nothing wrong with the man's anatomy.
MrZetterlund777 2 years ago
@MrZetterlund777 Sorry Zett I'm sure it's obvious to you but it isn't obvious, fact is the blood isn't consistent with actual trauma otherwise it would saturate and there would be a glove effect around the body parts. However this was made the dimensions don't add. And any blood would work, and the person adding it wouldn't have to know about utraviolent floresence to know that adding blood to the cloth would make it more realistic.
And yes, there are things wrong with the anatomy.
Atheistx82 2 years ago
Globe effect even.
Atheistx82 2 years ago
The dimensions don't add up even damn the youtube character limit.
Atheistx82 2 years ago
Where are you even getting this from? Everything I've said is well documented. As fact. Recorded into science journals. I do believe the blood stains did saturate, and it's not as simple as placing blood stains. serum is the liquid component of blood. This was visible around the blood stains.
MrZetterlund777 2 years ago
@MrZetterlund777 Zetter that this cloth even came into contact with a wounded man is not a documented fact. There's a lot of controversy over how it was made.
Isn't the image on the tips of the fibers MrZetter? A real wound should have deeply saturated the cloth, but neither this nor the globe effect is a problem for an irom molding lightly coated with blood, especially if the cloth were heated after to fade the image.
Atheistx82 2 years ago
Iron molding even. Curse my butterfingers.
Atheistx82 2 years ago
Yes, the image that constitutes the anatomy of the man only affects the very surface. However, I think the blood stains were saturated into the cloth. Just because there's "lots of controversy over how it's made" doesn't mean anything. It has to do with religion, there's bound to be controversy and people who won't agree until the day they die. Once Mr Schwortz was in a debate and the skeptic said "It cant be real." Barrie said, "Ok, why not?" And he replied, "Because it's too perfect."
MrZetterlund777 2 years ago
Your faith in a magic cloth is astonishing, but this is getting tiresome. There are numerous problems with the shroud, for instance the spacing between the front and back images do not wrap the full length of the head, the head is too small, the arms are too long, there are problems with the globe effect, there were a lot of other shrouds at the time, old linen and silk was often imported, there are alternative explanations for the blood stains ect
You're a true believer, but why should I be?
Atheistx82 2 years ago
It requires almost no faith. It is you my friend who think that some Templar had an opifany and said "Booya! I'll put this serum stain here, and centuries from now THEY'LL FIND IT!" There's nothing wrong with the body's image. Just look 3:44 minutes into this video. Or if you want, I can email you the methods they used to measure the body. As for the globe effect, the image has somewhat of a globe effect, nothing that's noticable from a distance, though.
MrZetterlund777 2 years ago
@MrZetterlund777 Again, it wouldn't take a genius to put real blood on a fake shroud. If you're trying to fake a murder you try to make it look convincing, if you have pig's blood on hand you're likely going to use it.
There are several things wrong with the body's image, I've already gone over some of them. You're just ignoring them for an optical illusion. If it had been a real body there should be a significant globe effect, what we have instead is consistent with an iron relief.
Atheistx82 2 years ago
@Atheistx82 The blood tested human. You can't fake serum. Serum surrounds the wound while the person is bleeding. I really don't see how you're so convinced the body's image isn't distorted in any way. I've offered to email you the methods taken to measure the body. To be honest, I'm getting tired of arguing about this. We make up the entirety of the comments section for this video.
MrZetterlund777 2 years ago
@MrZetterlund777 Ok first, where did you hear that the blood tested human? Second, even if it did any human's blood would do.
If the cloth were placed upon a real man, the image should be incredibly distorted due to the globe effect, not just on the face but on the body. The head is also still too small for the body, the arms are also still too long, and your email didn't address these issues.
If you want to believe the cloth is magic fine, but why should I?
Atheistx82 2 years ago
@Atheistx82 I heard it I believe in "Shroud of Turin: New Evidence 2009" -? It's not the blood that matters so much, but the serum around the blood clots. Not only that, the high levels of bilirubin that form after someone is severely tortured.
I HAVEN'T EVEN EMAILED YOU YET!
*sigh* Why don't you go to the Shroud of Turin official website and contact Barrie Schwortz.
MrZetterlund777 2 years ago
@MrZetterlund777 Hey why don't I also visit the answers in genesis website? While I'm at it, maybe I should check out the reptilian agenda.
Seriously, blood clots, MrZetter I know you're a true believer but if the best you have is clotted blood serum that doesn't do your Christ Cloth theory much credit nor does it answer any of the problems with the shroud.
If anything it only raises more problems. Unless the cloth was baked it should saturate the entire fibers.
Atheistx82 2 years ago
@Atheistx82 I'm afraid the SOT doesn't fit into the same catagory as creation science and Coast to Coast fanatical extra terrestrial assertions. There are two reasons I know the SOT is worthy science (apart from creation science) #1: It was on the Discovery channel for more than 3 minutes and @2: Kent Hovind rejects it. lol, so now you know it's real science. :p
MrZetterlund777 2 years ago
@MrZetterlund777 Being on the discovery network really doesn't prove anything. When's the last time you watched the Discovery channel anyway, "Ghost Science" "Axe Men" "Swamp Loggers" "Monster Quest" "American Hauntings" "UFOs" "Alien Encounters"
And don't even get me started on the History channel and TLC. But anyway, there are a number of problems with the shroud and there's no accounting for magic now is there?
Wasn't this video also on the discovery network?
Atheistx82 2 years ago
Well on the Discovery channel, creation science is looked les than for four seconds and tossed aside as silly. But the REAL proof is that Kent Hovint rejects it. Therefore, you KNOW it's scientific.
The documentory is called, "Shroud of Turin: New Evidence 2009." I subscribed to a channel recently that has all Shroud documentories with copyright permition. GOD BLESS BARRIE SCHWORTZ!!!!Magic on the cloth? No, but a mirical. :)
MrZetterlund777 2 years ago
LMAO I saw that, are you kidding? What actual evidence did it provide for a magic tomb cloth?
We already know that there were many shrouds before the Shroud of Turin was found, we already know that cloth was imported from the east and folded in cubits, we already know that the image is on the surface tips of the fibers (as if baked), we already know that there are problems with the globe effect, we already know that bar reliefs were used and they could be coated (with blood for example).
Atheistx82 2 years ago
Science can never confirm that is was brought on by ressurection, but when asked when the technology to make the image would be available, Barrie Schwortz said "50 years from NOW."
MrZetterlund777 2 years ago
@MrZetterlund777 Yeah because to make a 3d image with a bar relief and some blood and pigment, lightly baked to fade the image, requires future technology 50 years off right?
Atheistx82 2 years ago
@Atheistx82 Bar relief wasn't used. You can't fake serum and the levels of bilirubin in the blood. If a bar relief was used, the heat would have penetrated the linen surface. You CANNOT simply put serum on a bar relief, nor can you expect such high levels of bilirubin. Pigment doesn't constitute the Shroud's image. This is beginner's knowledge for Shroud studiers.
MrZetterlund777 2 years ago
@MrZetterlund777 Actually a Bar relief seems most likely given everything we know about the cloth. You are pretending that the image would have to be burned on with a bar relief, ignoring other ways one could be used to imprint an image.
You don't need to fake the serum, you could get blood from any wounded animal, including a prisoner, and blood naturally clots on it's own. Pigment doesn't constitute the blood, but what about the rest of the image?
Atheistx82 2 years ago
I think your best case is the globe effect. However, I do remember the gospels meantioning how the women prepared spices and perfumes but went home in respect to the Sabbath. It is possible they left the body unwrapped before they left. But there's nothing concrete, the gospels are so interpritive.
By the way, pollen samples taken from the Shroud show it was from Jerusalem. So I dunno what the knowledge of any imported goods are gonna do. And I haven't seen a single picture of another SOT.
MrZetterlund777 2 years ago
@MrZetterlund777 Yeah well the gospels don't solve the problem of the globe effect at all, and we've already been over the fact that a lot of old linen and silk was imported from that area and folded in cubits so the pollen doesn't help your magic cloth theory. I'm sure given that you only seem to view pro-shroud sources it wouldn't be mentioned that there were other shrouds, this video covers some of them early on. The Vatican knows, that's one reason they won't declare the shroud a holy relic.
Atheistx82 2 years ago
Look, obviously you're not going to be convinced by forensic science. It's amazing that you can't comprehend why the Shroud of Turin is so up held as unique to say the least. It would solve the globe effect if they simply folded the cloth over him and put off wrapping Him up again so they could rush home before the Sabbath came. To get serum, you'd have to press the cloth directly onto whatever you got the blood from before putting the image on there.
MrZetterlund777 2 years ago
@MrZetterlund777 You ignore everything wrong with your magic shroud theory and pretend to have a concrete case. This is pretty pointless, you won't even acknowledge the problems.
And what's the problem with pressing a cloth on a blood covered iron? Nothing. And this whole thing about torture, you don't have to torture someone to get the serum and some clotted blood, but even if you did this is the medieval period we're talking about, torture was common practice.
Atheistx82 2 years ago
Not just torture, crucifixion. There are bruisses and cuts and swelling all the way down this man's body. The left eye, swollen, the left buttock, swollen, the back, ripped to shreds, the shoulder irritated by carrying large wooden object, all concluded analysis of the SOT. The practice of crucifixion was lost in midieval times, that's why all crucifixion pictures of Jesus had the nail through the center of the palm instead of through the lower part of the hand, through the wrist.
MrZetterlund777 2 years ago
I doubt anyone would have comprehend the nesessity (however you spell that) to torture someone or something before using it's blood. It's completely obvious that someone was physically crucified underneath the SOT. There's too much to confirm this. And it's also well known that pigment doesn't constitute the Shroud's image. But you're going to remain unconvinced, so I'm just going to drop it.
MrZetterlund777 2 years ago
Linen was imported?! Linen was necessary for the Jewish acustom to wrap bodies in. Linen is meantioned in the Old Testament too. I've never seen one of these "other shrouds." Understand, I'm hardly making a leap of faith. The reason I'm so defensive about the Shroud of Turin is because every time it's about to go on display or what not, skeptics prounce all over it, and people become sheeple to what they say! As if the only research team to have ever had physical contact with it are crazies!
MrZetterlund777 2 years ago
@MrZetterlund777 Linen was imported throughout much of history and it was often folded into cubits. What do I care that it's mentioned? There were several other shrouds, the Shroud of Turin wasn't the first and it's not the first hoax, and yes you are taking a leap of faith. Your entire belief about the magic cloth is based on a mystery, and there are numberous problems with it that have never been addressed.
Atheistx82 2 years ago
And Barrie said "Oh, so if it were less perfect, then you'd believe it?" "Well, no." he says. :p Think of how controversial evolution is. It's basically a proven study that animals can change past their current state, yet many reject the idea because of "problems" they see with this.
MrZetterlund777 2 years ago
And don't even start trying to push that "you don't even adress the problems... you just ignore or dismiss" on me, I'm certain I know more about the Shroud than you or the founders of these silly websites.
MrZetterlund777 2 years ago
What if for example, I took a 2000-year old hanky from Palestine, imprinted my posterior on it, and then bury it somewhere on the Holy Land; what will happen? Scientists, archaeologists, and experts will just quote what facts they could obtain from it. Alas those of faith will think(or guess)this is actually an image of Jesus' butt! LOL
zulby09 2 years ago
I agree. The facts speak for themselves. Standard scientific analyses have evidences that lean towards the shroud as being a forgery; nothing more. As for faith, it is nothing more than conjecture, or simply guesswork!
zulby09 2 years ago
Well you've demonstrated your overwhelming ignorance about the study of the Shroud! All the facts lean to it being real! This is just bull crap! We have documents reguarding the Shroud of Turin pre-dating the 13th century recommended documentory:
watch?v=Vj0DXYQWPDw
the reason the Carbon14dating dates it to that century is because it was rewoven to be preserved.
MrZetterlund777 2 years ago
I want facts not opinions. I haven't been to the moon, but I'm prepared to tell all of those who believe it's made of green cheese that they are wrong. Same goes for people who believe that this cloth is 2000 years old and not a 13th-14th century painting. The church has been searching for something - anything really, - to hang on to ,now that science has proved their faith and opinions to be wrong.
vulpecula999 2 years ago
wow how can you all belief that Leo painted or burned it or what ever he did to get the image on the shroud
but if you all see the title with shroud of Turin in different title and if you just have common sense ( you don't have to be highly educated) you will see that there is no prove yet that the shroud is a Fake or a forgery
if you see the one on the radio carbon14dating you will see that it's around 1280-1300 AD and this is the restored/repaired part that was done in 14-15 century
kimura2Loc 2 years ago
One thing is for sure nobody knows how the Son of GOD was look like the bilbe does not describe his physical aspect so there are not detail of him. His picture as we known was made during the middle age by Da Vince or someoneelse,so shroud of Turin is fake.
loco039 2 years ago
No, it's not. Read the comment I used to respond to zulboy09.
MrZetterlund777 2 years ago
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It's ironic that the unbelievers who made this film used people of science who believe the shroud is authentic and carefully edited them. They didn't happen to mention this. They will do anything they can to bring down Christ with their nonsense, Real scientists say it's the true burial cloth of Christ. So get over it- get on your knees and pray!
helenw100 2 years ago
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Whoa - da vinci was good painting a picture, getting it to turn up so we could see it a a later date. putting pollens on it that correspond to it being the burial cloth of Jesus. and doing it so it would have a 3d image and blood type and roman coins deciphened on the eyes later!. These athesists even paid someone £1,000000 to prove it fake and gave him a chair in a university if he would say its a fake. Thats because they hate Jesus, but he is watching them and will judge them!
helenw100 2 years ago
First time I saw a photo of this as a kid (I was at the time in the hands of religious fanatics) I thought - 'that's a fake!' It just looks it, doesn't it? The early photosensitive chemicals notion explains how it was done. Also, I would guess, Leonardo had invented some kind of air brush technique for his later paintings. After all- in our time - the airbrush was invented to 'de-wrinkle' early b/w photo portraits. Clever old bugger tho'... and silly buggers who fell for his 'trickery'.
zthetha 2 years ago
Yes it could be Leonardo! He wanted some fun!
He was not an Idiot!
oppsan 3 years ago 4
/hello... this is interesting... But other Data more so.... Never foget that the "unknown... is only a reflection of he "unknown". /i cannot go into the kammera (obsdcura). F/ck Leonardo! I was him & him was I... don't ever try to explain a genious...
RuniToconillo 3 years ago
christ is gay
Olegred 3 years ago
HELL WILL ALSO "BURN" YOU!!!
johnchris69 4 years ago
Theres no way the shroud is a fake. Lame evidence to prove it is.
megawolf7 4 years ago
Fake.
Deal with it.
castletriglav 3 years ago
Oh its real. You don't have to like it, thats fine. Christ is Lord.
megawolf7 3 years ago
loser
tommyenglish1 3 years ago
wow, you are retarded
tommyenglish1 3 years ago
Just like the people who believe that Leo made the shroud.
megawolf7 3 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
someone MADE it
tommyenglish1 3 years ago
The heat was from the light of Jesus Christ when he rose. Praise the lord! =]
OPENyourWINGSsoar 4 years ago
What kind of heat would that be, radiation? Wouldn't that be dangerous to anyone guarding the tomb? Especially if its enough to burn an image on the shroud?
Viahandel06 3 years ago
haha loser
tommyenglish1 3 years ago
BRILLIANT!!!
dowhatthouwilt911 4 years ago 7