Could you do (or do you have?) more videos about the cosmos according to the Book of Enoch? There's not much information that I can find, and even less that actually uses quotes from the book
@mchandler2112 I don't have more videos on Enoch's cosmology. I reconstructed his understanding from 1 Enoch chapters 72-82. I don't know of any one else that has tried. ;-D
I find these ancient cosmological models fascinating.
@Xiquid No, I haven't. I've been trying back-door channels to get somebody to do it. But no luck so far. My old Revelation 6 crack, I would love to have the methods and conclusion rejected or accepted.
My whole argument depends strongly on Revelation 6 and 12, but 6 is the best Allegory I've ever seen. With 12 there's some wiggle room, but it's strong too. So much could hinge on those two chapters. I really want someone to look at it. ;-D
Do we know that the ancient understanding of an eclipse was the Moon covering the Sun? Granted, they knew the Moon and Sun were the same apparent size - but had they connected this with the idea that one could cover the other?
@AlanKey86 They don't seem to understand that. What I've picked up from Enoch, is the Sun and Moon travel the same plane. They're the same distance from earth. So, an Eclipse might be demolition of the Sun and Moon. It seems like a Fusion, rather than one covering the other. If it's a Fusion, then what comes next is "New". There would be a New Sun and a New Moon. This could easily end up being a Death and Resurrection event.
@GKCanman My understanding of Zoroastrianism, is that Astrology would have been a big deal. The Israelite perspective is clouded by Modern Judaism. It's obvious that there is an Astrological understanding, but Modern Judaism treats Astrology as taboo. The Book of Enoch treats "poor understanding" of the stars as a "sin". The punishment for that "sin" is poor crop yield.
In 66 there's Halley Comet. The closest NT allegory, Revelation 10, is weak. It's just very poorly written.
Corection on my first post: I meant to say was that I DON'T believe that Christianity "borrowed" or "stole" from other mystery cults such as Mithraism.
@TheD0ded0deSchmuley boteach (jewish rabbi and theologian) says jesus couldn't be the son of god AND be the jewish messiah and claims the virgin birth and "divine" jesus were tacked on after the "failed" (pretend) messiah to fit in with the pagan cults of mithras/dionysis. justyn martyr, tertullian etc claimed the similarities were due to the devil. Are you sure there is no connection?
Just like there are many many kinds of soda soft drinks of various flavors, but what makes a soft drink a soft drink is the fundamentals: carbonated water and sugar. Thus, like all the mystery cults of the 1 century before and after, for a religion to be a mystery cult it too needs the fundamentals: It needs discipleship, a redeeming god, a sacrifice for atonement, and a sarcrificial meal to eat and drink the body of a god. Christianity (the christian mysteries) was just one of many of its type
@TheD0ded0de I've actually argued that before, though i've sense taken the video down because it was a bit too speculative.
But I've argued before that The Cults of Mithraism, Dionysus, Isis, and Jesus, all were spawned from interpretations of an eclipse. Dying and Rebirth being the theme. I may explore that again later, because it still sounds plausible.
Christianity or the christian mysteries were born among a myriad of mystery cults of the region. There were egyptian mysteries, greek mysteries, persian mysteries, and of course christian mysteries. Believes and religions don't form in a vacuum, but they are products of time and culture. I strongly believe that christianity "borrowed" or "stole" from Mithraism or other popular mystery religions of the time but rather Christianity WAS and IS a mystery cult in it's own right. CONT.
You're now entering the realm of Acharya S. That's not a bad thing per se, the point is that it's a divergence into a -in itself- quite compelling cosmological argument that can't necessarily be attributed to the texts of the NT. Only Jude quotes Enoch, and he just barely reached canonicity.
@deemzje I'm 100% certain, that I can prove Revelation 6 is the Eclipse of 59. Same certainty on Revelation 12 as Eclipse of 71. I can prove Revelation 15 "sounds like" the eclipse of 164 or 174, though it's a crappy allegory. And of course, I already did those videos quite a ways back.
I'm not sure what else I would need to prove that there are Eclipses in the NT. The question is, what did those people think of Eclipses? If the NT describe that thought, it's implanted in metaphors.
@Xoroaster I don't know about "100% certain", but I do think you make a good case for those eclipses in Revelation. It's the relation between the other books of the NT and eclipses that I don't see.
@deemzje Part of the problem with that "relationship", is we don't know the dates. Modern Scholarship is horrible on the dates on the rest of the texts. I'm writing a script which will partially address the dates.
The Modern Assumptions, as unsupported as they are, are about 10 years Earlier than Revelation 6. If the Modern Dating Assumptions are off by any margin, Revelation 6 becomes the first known text. And then it's not just a matter of a guess, it's "an Eclipse was the first text."
But I thought that Revelation is a jewish apocalyptic text, later reworked by christians?
Besides, isn't the concensus that Paul's (genuine) letters are the first christian texts, predating 64 CE? (Even if the Dutch Radicals are right, they have to be pre-Marcion, around 140 CE.)
This subject is such a tangled mess, maybe I should stop discussing it on this character restricted platform.
It is a mess. And I did propose that Revelation 6 through 13 was likely of purely Jewish origin, and reworked. Perhaps first issue of Revelation would be @81. But the glaring problem for me, has always been the precision of Revelation 6. It's incredibly precise. Which to me, says "eye-witness" record. It somehow made it into Revelation, and probably early. But the eclipse had to be initially recorded by an "eye-witness." It's too precise to be a later construct.
@theheinzification I'm not certain of the star of Bethlehem. I'll have to look more into it, but I'm holding out hope that I find an older explanation for the star. There was another event around 5 BCE, a Supernova, reported by Chinese writers. I haven't found a Jewish take on that event.
I've always thought the Star was likely just Venus or Jupiter. But i haven't figured that one out yet for sure.
That video is gonna get you some torpedos, my friend.
I'm very curious how your going to build up your argument, so I'll keep my rockets on stand-by till you've made your follow-up. :) It's quite a novel approach, I'm fascinated. Keep it coming!
Could you do (or do you have?) more videos about the cosmos according to the Book of Enoch? There's not much information that I can find, and even less that actually uses quotes from the book
mchandler2112 1 month ago
@mchandler2112 I don't have more videos on Enoch's cosmology. I reconstructed his understanding from 1 Enoch chapters 72-82. I don't know of any one else that has tried. ;-D
I find these ancient cosmological models fascinating.
Xoroaster 1 month ago
Dude, by and large, have you had your work critiqued? This stuff is good and needs some peer reviewing.
Xiquid 6 months ago
@Xiquid No, I haven't. I've been trying back-door channels to get somebody to do it. But no luck so far. My old Revelation 6 crack, I would love to have the methods and conclusion rejected or accepted.
My whole argument depends strongly on Revelation 6 and 12, but 6 is the best Allegory I've ever seen. With 12 there's some wiggle room, but it's strong too. So much could hinge on those two chapters. I really want someone to look at it. ;-D
Xoroaster 6 months ago
Interesting.
Do we know that the ancient understanding of an eclipse was the Moon covering the Sun? Granted, they knew the Moon and Sun were the same apparent size - but had they connected this with the idea that one could cover the other?
AlanKey86 6 months ago
@AlanKey86 They don't seem to understand that. What I've picked up from Enoch, is the Sun and Moon travel the same plane. They're the same distance from earth. So, an Eclipse might be demolition of the Sun and Moon. It seems like a Fusion, rather than one covering the other. If it's a Fusion, then what comes next is "New". There would be a New Sun and a New Moon. This could easily end up being a Death and Resurrection event.
Xoroaster 6 months ago
Bit off topic but... Do Xoroastrians, or the Israelites in general, believe that shooting stars to be a bad omen as well?
GKCanman 6 months ago
@GKCanman My understanding of Zoroastrianism, is that Astrology would have been a big deal. The Israelite perspective is clouded by Modern Judaism. It's obvious that there is an Astrological understanding, but Modern Judaism treats Astrology as taboo. The Book of Enoch treats "poor understanding" of the stars as a "sin". The punishment for that "sin" is poor crop yield.
In 66 there's Halley Comet. The closest NT allegory, Revelation 10, is weak. It's just very poorly written.
Xoroaster 6 months ago
Fascinating stuff!
DaithiDublin 6 months ago
Corection on my first post: I meant to say was that I DON'T believe that Christianity "borrowed" or "stole" from other mystery cults such as Mithraism.
TheD0ded0de 6 months ago
@TheD0ded0deSchmuley boteach (jewish rabbi and theologian) says jesus couldn't be the son of god AND be the jewish messiah and claims the virgin birth and "divine" jesus were tacked on after the "failed" (pretend) messiah to fit in with the pagan cults of mithras/dionysis. justyn martyr, tertullian etc claimed the similarities were due to the devil. Are you sure there is no connection?
1empathy 6 months ago
Just like there are many many kinds of soda soft drinks of various flavors, but what makes a soft drink a soft drink is the fundamentals: carbonated water and sugar. Thus, like all the mystery cults of the 1 century before and after, for a religion to be a mystery cult it too needs the fundamentals: It needs discipleship, a redeeming god, a sacrifice for atonement, and a sarcrificial meal to eat and drink the body of a god. Christianity (the christian mysteries) was just one of many of its type
TheD0ded0de 6 months ago 6
@TheD0ded0de I've actually argued that before, though i've sense taken the video down because it was a bit too speculative.
But I've argued before that The Cults of Mithraism, Dionysus, Isis, and Jesus, all were spawned from interpretations of an eclipse. Dying and Rebirth being the theme. I may explore that again later, because it still sounds plausible.
Xoroaster 6 months ago
Christianity or the christian mysteries were born among a myriad of mystery cults of the region. There were egyptian mysteries, greek mysteries, persian mysteries, and of course christian mysteries. Believes and religions don't form in a vacuum, but they are products of time and culture. I strongly believe that christianity "borrowed" or "stole" from Mithraism or other popular mystery religions of the time but rather Christianity WAS and IS a mystery cult in it's own right. CONT.
TheD0ded0de 6 months ago
You're now entering the realm of Acharya S. That's not a bad thing per se, the point is that it's a divergence into a -in itself- quite compelling cosmological argument that can't necessarily be attributed to the texts of the NT. Only Jude quotes Enoch, and he just barely reached canonicity.
deemzje 6 months ago
@deemzje I'm 100% certain, that I can prove Revelation 6 is the Eclipse of 59. Same certainty on Revelation 12 as Eclipse of 71. I can prove Revelation 15 "sounds like" the eclipse of 164 or 174, though it's a crappy allegory. And of course, I already did those videos quite a ways back.
I'm not sure what else I would need to prove that there are Eclipses in the NT. The question is, what did those people think of Eclipses? If the NT describe that thought, it's implanted in metaphors.
Xoroaster 6 months ago
@Xoroaster I don't know about "100% certain", but I do think you make a good case for those eclipses in Revelation. It's the relation between the other books of the NT and eclipses that I don't see.
deemzje 6 months ago
@deemzje Part of the problem with that "relationship", is we don't know the dates. Modern Scholarship is horrible on the dates on the rest of the texts. I'm writing a script which will partially address the dates.
The Modern Assumptions, as unsupported as they are, are about 10 years Earlier than Revelation 6. If the Modern Dating Assumptions are off by any margin, Revelation 6 becomes the first known text. And then it's not just a matter of a guess, it's "an Eclipse was the first text."
Xoroaster 6 months ago
@Xoroaster I agree on the texts dating issues.
But I thought that Revelation is a jewish apocalyptic text, later reworked by christians?
Besides, isn't the concensus that Paul's (genuine) letters are the first christian texts, predating 64 CE? (Even if the Dutch Radicals are right, they have to be pre-Marcion, around 140 CE.)
This subject is such a tangled mess, maybe I should stop discussing it on this character restricted platform.
deemzje 6 months ago
@deemzje lolz.
It is a mess. And I did propose that Revelation 6 through 13 was likely of purely Jewish origin, and reworked. Perhaps first issue of Revelation would be @81. But the glaring problem for me, has always been the precision of Revelation 6. It's incredibly precise. Which to me, says "eye-witness" record. It somehow made it into Revelation, and probably early. But the eclipse had to be initially recorded by an "eye-witness." It's too precise to be a later construct.
Xoroaster 6 months ago
@Xoroaster Well, some people back then got to be 70 or 80 years old. I don't think it's a problem, it's not like you're looking at a 100 year gap.
deemzje 6 months ago
does the star of betlehem fit in there somehow?
theheinzification 6 months ago
@theheinzification I'm not certain of the star of Bethlehem. I'll have to look more into it, but I'm holding out hope that I find an older explanation for the star. There was another event around 5 BCE, a Supernova, reported by Chinese writers. I haven't found a Jewish take on that event.
I've always thought the Star was likely just Venus or Jupiter. But i haven't figured that one out yet for sure.
Xoroaster 6 months ago
Go get em Floyd!
TheTomtompiper 6 months ago
@TheTomtompiper lolz, thank you! ;-D
Xoroaster 6 months ago
That video is gonna get you some torpedos, my friend.
I'm very curious how your going to build up your argument, so I'll keep my rockets on stand-by till you've made your follow-up. :) It's quite a novel approach, I'm fascinated. Keep it coming!
62netty 6 months ago
@62netty lolz, thanks netty! ;-D
Xoroaster 6 months ago
Just more evidence that religion was spawned from superstitions and fears about how nature behaved.
Thanks :)
AtheistToothFairy 6 months ago 19