"Jacob Have I Loved; Esau Have I Hated..." (John Calvin)

[DYLAN102001]

I think that calvinism is biblicaly false teaching that leading many people to hell because it makes them think that GOD doesn't choose them and as a result, it

would cause them to commit suicide, it would cause me to commit suicide if I

believed in GOD and thought

[bigkevcxza]

Esau sold his birthright for food thats the main reason why God hated Esau, plus God hated Esau from before he was born

[foreverinchrist1]

@bigkevcxza Did God choose Jacob over Essau before they were even born?

[foreverinchrist1]

@bigkevcxza Scipture tells us that, they had done no evil or good. God's choice was based solely on His election in order that what he deceed would come to pass (Ro.9:11). To you it may seem that what Essau did was not ordain by God, but Essau's own doing. That was not the case.

[Winter412]

very confusion, shalom; not valid? this is not bibical!

[JonahAickmanLove]

This was very interesting.

I actually clicked this video thinking it was about Katherine Paterson's book, "Jacob Have I Loved."

LOLz, guess I was wrong!

[mallywon]

He was talking about 2 Nation's if you go back to what Paul is quoting in Roman's 9/ Genesis. If you read your bible you'd see that Esau never served Isaac. Then if he was talking of 2 individuals Jacob falsely prophesied. Not to mention Paul is refering to calling and not salvation. Salvation is not the context, or the subject of Romans... You guys put more emphasis on John Calvin than on Jesus.

[patriotsfan137]

@mallywon are you kidding me the begining of the chapter tells us that paul is talking about salvation as far as esau not serving jacob you dont know that it may have happened later on otherwise the bible its contradicting as far as 2 nations that is not the context for the use of this verse in this chapter he is talking about individuals not nations you need to read the chapter not listen to other people give you thos ideas

[ChosenFier]

Edomites are the ancient Arabs responsible for the slave trade (I don't know exactly where we can pinpoint them today, there's all type of different people in the "Middle East"). The Caucasians, including Ashkenaz are from Japeth. Shalom.

[tribeofjudah05]

sorry Arabs are Ishmael. Edom are europeans

[PhuqueU]

It's a clue Dumascus, Jacob was a Deceiver.

So which "Lord" would love that? Hint Hint.

[truthhitmanisback]

Who are the Edomites through out the scriptures?

[arizzle4sho]

Edomites are the modern day Caucasians?

[FLpolo]

white ppl are. most black are jacob the other half are hamites

[chocohercules]

@FLpolo Not much people know this?

[runninstermz]

we also have to asume that grace would not be grace if it is not given by the choice of the one who gives it. So by who are we to say some who do not recieve it, deserve it. Is it not by the choice of the one who gives it. as it says in romans 9 "in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls..."

[runninstermz]

This is a matter of the will of God over the will of man. The problem is that people tend to think that the will of man is to be obligated to itself, free from the will of God. this then we must ask, What is the Will of God? I say to everyone that everything is from God, through God, and to God, therefore stating that God's will is that He may be Glorified. How may this be if His perfect judgment is not shown to some and not to those who have recieved grace.

[clnow709]

There is conditions to God's love, even with us humans if we have good common sense, a women will leave her husband or boyfriend if he's beating her, unless your Rhianna of course or on Maury.

[dylanacious]

John macarthur also teaches that the bible teaches both human choice and divine election.iv'e just finished listening to the doctrines of grace teaching on election.Macarthur himself saidthat in reference to a question asked by a man visiting his church.I listen to him everyday on the radio,and I am not misquoting him,he said that exactly.

[NewDirection4us]

Excellent message! God chose Jacob before either were born, God chose all of His elect before we were born.  No one who has faith can boast. It is God who has chosen, not vice versa. All glory to God.

[Strafete]

Not the point Paul is making. He exclaims that a true child of Abraham (Promise) stems from faith: naturally and spiritually. Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau. Doesn't God know the heart and conquences for every man?

Esau received the lesser blessing only because--for one meal--he sold his own birthright. God considered this act to be faithless. The terms love & hate are used in the old Jewish concept as a superlative. Man has and shall always be chosen by faith not fate.

[dawgbear06]

Absolutely he knows the heart of every man:

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

(Jeremiah 17:9 KJV)

So was Jacob's (and Rebecca's) sinful trickery of Isaac with faith or faithless? I would say faithless because if God said it was going to happen, they should have relied on Him instead of trying to (wickedly) bring it about.

Also, tell me what Scripture conveys the idea that Esau's selling of his birthright was considered faithless by God.

[ZadokKeseb]

Here is the scripture you peon

Hebrew 12:16] Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

[17] For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance,( it was such a wicked jester you can never repent so called white man) though he sought it carefully with tears. He found no place for repentence

[

[SpideyPranks]

God has predestined that all who believe in Jesus Christ and accept Him as their Lord and Savior will be adopted as Gods children, receive an eternal inheritance and be made like Jesus. Neither Ephesians 1:3-12 nor Roman 8:29-30 teach that God has chosen unconditionally who will be saved and who will be damned. Predestination has nothing to do with salvation, it has to do with the rewards that God has eternally planned to give all those who are saved.

[parakeethands]

Sovereignty of God-A.W.Pink, Reformed Doctrine of Predestination-Lorraine Boettner, What is Reformed Theology?-R.C.Sproul, Chosen by God-R.C.Sproul, for anyone interseted these are a few good books to start with...oh, also Institute of Christian Religion-John Calvin.

[synodofdort]

Great books you forgot Knowing God- JI Packer

[Esther74]

So, is this what John Calvin preaches, or is this the opposite of what John Calvin preaches?

[LaneCh]

Yes.  This from his commentaries.

[Pormilous]

LaneCH

Sicne God sovereigning elects people to Hell according to your theology. Why does God in Romans 10:21, fault these unelected children of Israel for their obstinance?

Or why does Jesus in Luke 13:34 state that he has often longed to gather these unbelievers under his wing as a hen does her chicks IF he has sovereignly elected them to hill?

How does your theology handle verses like that?

[LaneCh]

For Luke 13:34, it could be that we don't read the same bible because it doesn't say that he longed to gather them.  It says that he longed to gather their children. Big difference.

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!" (Luke 13:34)

[LaneCh]

As for Romans 10:21, here you go:

tinyurl(.)com/d6m8d8

[Pormilous]

LaneCH,

The commentary you pasted their is insighful but I don't see how it answers my question. Infact it says: "And he says, that to Israel he stretched forth his hands, whom he continually by his word invited to himself, and ceased not to allure by every sort of kindness"

I just don't understand why would God be alluring and inviting a people that he has no free will to decisde and that he has sovereingly elected to blindness & damnation?

[Pormilous]

LaneCH, thank you for the translation correction but I don't see how that makes the big difference you're talking about.

Why is Jesus longing to gather the "children" under his wings if he has already elected them to blindness and hence damnation?

[LaneCh]

"LaneCH, thank you for the translation correction but I don't see how that makes the big difference you're talking about."

Here's the big difference basically.

If you said, "Lane said he wants to gather M&M's." but what I actually said was "I want to gather Butterfingers." you would have misrepresent what I actually said and changed the entire meaning of what I was saying. (cont...)

[LaneCh]

Why is that important? What if your tax refund went to your neighbor and not you? What if the government said "Send that check to Pormilous." but the irs claimed they said, "Send that check to Pormilous's neighbor." At that point you'd probably notice that the person in question is of vital importance since it would hit a little closer to your immediate state. (cont...)

[LaneCh]

Try the same careful distinction with something of eternal matters like this verse. It changes it from what you said before.

"Luke 13:34 state that he has often longed to gather these unbelievers under his wing"

When in all actuality, He doesn't say that he longed to gather these unbelievers. He said that he longed to gather their children. Now, again, apply the same error to your tax refund and see if you still think that it doesn't make a big difference in a few months.

[Pormilous]

LaneCh,

Ok, I understand what you are saying.

So when he says "and you would not have it" at the end of Luke 13:34..... who is he referring to? The Unbelievers or their children?

Also, I understand the children of the city of Jerusalem to be the Israelites? I honestly can't see the distinction in that text between the unbelievers and their children."

Hence your tax refund example would be rendered mute unless of course it is distinguishing btw the unbelievers and their children.

[LaneCh]

"So when he says "and you would not have it" at the end of Luke 13:34..... who is he referring to? The Unbelievers or their children?"

He's referring to the unbelievers, but keep in mind that in order for your first assertion to be valid, he had to be saying that he wanted to draw the unbelievers in and not another people. In other words, just because he's speaking to the unbelievers in the latter part doesn't mean that your argument didn't crash long before that.

[LaneCh]

"I honestly can't see the distinction in that text between the unbelievers and their children."

If you can't see that if a person says he wants one thing for a certain people and that doesn't necessitate that he says it of the other people, then I certainly can't help you. At that point, you're more into denial than you are actually looking at the facts of the situation. Sorry that I can't help with that.

[silmalila]

Great argument, Lane.

God bless you!

[patriledesma]

@Pormilous Regarding Luke 13:34, I'm not completely sure but we should take into account that Jesus is speaking in his state of humilliation as man. His all-knowing capacity is somehow different from when he is in glory. Jesus said that only the Father knows when the end would come... Doesn't he know it too? (Mark 13:32). This is just a suggestion but I'm not sure :)

[AMWYESHUASAVESAMW]

This is what John Calvin preaches. ~Doctrines of Grace~

[FirebrandNIRE]

Is this Mark from Reformation Ireland speaking?

[LaneCh]

I'm not sure.

[AMWYESHUASAVESAMW]

Awesome!

[RedBeetle]

Good job!

Sometimes you can get all of Calvin's Commentaries, brand new, for $100.00 at Christian Book Distributors (CBD).