I can awnser this question for you. God keeps evil in this world as a sort of.... test, i guess you would call it. Think of it this way, if the world was perfect, what would be the point of heaven? Heaven is perfect, earth is not. Yes, God could make the world free of evil, but he doesnt to make stronger believers. There would be no point in going to heaven and being with god if the earth was perfect. I hope that anwsers ur question-- God bless.
@joshthemann1 Why is the test necessary? Why not make us moral if he is all good. By making some of us evil and some of us good (most of us both) he creates a situation where we are "tested" to see if we have attributes HE has given us, with him already knowing what will happen. Does this not sound like a waist of time to you? Why give us the capacity to fail if he can spare us this suffering? This test is like a boy pulling wings off an insect, it is sadistic. This God is unworthy of worship.
Is there really anyone interested in watching this retard. While I know there is no God. This guy is so obviously a Muslim. Trying to get other cowards to turn towards another even more cowardly belief. Which is Islam. SAGE!! LOFL You sound like an asshole and look even more like one. Stop making bombs and go shave. You got time to shave your head but not your face? lmfao.
@Michiganman2cali This retard, as you call him, has a doctoral degree. What education do you have? Any? I am not and have never been a Muslim, I am an atheist, as I say in the video, had you bothered to listen, you dumbshit. You are a presumptuous bigoted immature child. What is cowardly is attacking people without knowing anything about them. You have been blocked. I don't have time to waste on immature children who make assumptions based on nothing.
Evilness proves that there's an evil being at work influencing people's minds and actions i.e. Satan aka the devil. and because Satan exists, that means that God must also exist. God balances the devil. God will always try to influence people's minds just like evilness does however most of the time it doesn't work because he allows people to have freewill and most of the time people let satan invade their minds. that's why we live in a fucked up society as you stated.
@FallofDarkness55 We live in a "fucked-up" society because of people like you who beleive in stupid crazy things. The more crazy things people beleive the more their judgment is clouded and the more likely dysfunction will be the result. DO you not see the incredible arbitrariness of your statement? Why does the existence of evil prove the existence of Satan? Could not evil exist for many reasons? Why ignore other possibilities? Evil exists because it is an inevitable result of natural laws.
@SkepticSage there's always symmetry to everything. you can observe that with planets, organisms and arbitrarily in nature. if this inevitable evil power exists in natural laws then it is also inevitable for a good power to exist in natural laws due to symmetry. in fact another example of symmetry would be matter and anti-matter. and no i'm not delusional. i'm open to all possibilities and not an obstinate fool like you who jumps to immediate conclusions about our place in the universe.
Of course God is evil. The Bible proves it again and again. God commands his followers to rape, murder, commit genocide, lie, steal, kidnap. Yet Christians are so blind to the reality of what the Hebrew tribes did to their fellow human beings that they will jump time and again to the defence of God. This is never done in any kind of coherent manner, but rather with some explanation that boils down to 'they were evil, and deserved it, because God is good.'
In response to evil things in the world = evil or no god, why does the existence of a god assume no evil? Couldn't a "good" god exist yet not have any concern with us because we are so insignificant? A "good" person can exist and neglect to better things smaller than he/she.
You make assumptions without evidence. How do you know the bible is true when most historians beleive it is not? What archeology are you talking about? Not all archeology fits with the bible, in fact most does not. If you were to read sources outside of the Christian propaganda you have been reading you would find that what I am saying is just what archeologists and historians are saying. You need to read some objective sources. You will never get objectivity from christian apologists.
God has said nothing, He cant because he does not exist. On the otehr hand, humans claiming they speak for a false god, say lots of things and contradict each other. Which book are you referring to? Every culture and religion has a book that contradicts the books of other religions and cultures. All of them are alike in that all are lies.
As for what you said about God creating man with the capacity for evil and does nothing to stop the evil from manifesting , that is because he wants us to stop it: that's the whole point, that's the whole purpose. There is a god within each one of us, but we are too scared to assume this huge responsibility, so we just let things get bad to worse, till the task becomes too over whelming. It's like leaving your bathroom dirty for a whole year, and then blaming your mom for not cleaning it !
But wanting us to stop it is unreasonable and unjust. Why should we be responsible for stopping something he created in the first place? The existence of violence only makes sense if you see it as a survival instinct created by evolution not as a curse given by a god. We clearly are NOT the creation of a loving god. If we were we would be good and functional. Instead we act exactly like one would expect from a wild animal with too much instinct and not enough intelligence.
As for disasters and death, it is part of nature. If you believed in life after death, this wouldn't be such a big deal. But, being an atheist, the thought of death and disaster is plain torture because you actually believe we have only one life to live. You are restricting yourself, literally imprisoning yourself in an imaginary cage: that is your deluded belief there is nothing after death.Did it ever occur to you for one moment that there might be life after death?
Yes, of course, I have thought of the idea of life after death. But I have discounted it becuase there is no evidence and it is obvious people beleive in it to make them feel better. But that is the problem. You are saying that suffering is no being deal. This is what delusions that makes us feel better do. They make us accept things we should not accept. This explains why conservatives have believed in social Darwinism and are against welfare. The acceptance of human suffering is immoral.
I got your messages. Just wanted to say that I never really said religion is the solution. Actually, personally I have very little respect for most muslims today. However, I have a lot of respect for Islam. There is a big difference: muslims have misinterpreted the koran and have invented things that are not, in my opinion, even close to what God intended.
If you read the koran with an open mind, and a clean heart, you will understand that it can only be the truth from God.
As for the innocent victims of evil, it is sad that they are the ones to take the blows. But WE are responisble as a society for what is happening to them, not God. We are the ones who have allowed evil to multiply generation after generation until it accumulated to a horrible degree. How ? By being selfish and refusing to believe in morality and not speaking up in front of corruption.We can only hope and pray that God lends a hand in cleaning up the mess WE MADE!
I could not agree more. Selfishness and greed are behind some human suffering. However, your idea that religion is the answer is contradicted by past history of religion failing to make people more moral, encouraging people to be immoral, and encouraging people to remain idle when evil is occurring in their presence. As a tool for making societies more moral, religion has failed miserably. The most violent and immoral societies have been religious societies. Is this a coincidence?
The "mess we made"? We did not make disease, natural disasters, death, physical abnormalities, dangerous weather, and our own brain with all its instincts. These were either made by some space daddy in the sky or by evolution. We most definitely did not make them.
There is also a verse in the Quran, (don't recall which one) that says : "It is not God that creates the evil in the world , It is mankind" " Any bad consequence that a person lives in is of his own making . It is us humans that have to take a stand correct our bad behavior and help others to correct theirs. That is how much God has entrusted to us. It is a big responsibility but that is what will make man the extraordinary being God is trying to make of him.
Your theology is irrational & bizarre. If god create man, he created him with the capacity for evil and does nothing to stop that capacity from manifesting itself. That makes god evil by definition. Even if this god did exist, it is clear he does not care about us or he would make our lives better. Why should we be responsible for a world that was made by someone else. Do we not make inverters responsible for what they create? How are disease, natural disasters, famines, and death of our making?
Evil is a disguised medication that will boost a human's spirit and elevate it, but this happens only on one condition: that the human in question be insightful enough to use his free will properly and choose the right course after he has been exposed to evil. Evil is necessary to test how strong a person can be in combating it. It's like an upward climb : Evil is the gravity that's pushing you down. The better you are able to push through it's gravity the better person you will become.
Child abusers frequently justify their behavior by claiming that abuse makes their children strong. Studies show that abuse turns children into mentally ill adults, many of them aggressive and even violent. Children are taught to be good by good parents IN PERSON, absent parents are considered neglectful and create adults who feel unworthy of love. God never appears in person. If god exists, he is abusive and neglectful and has created a world of delusional, violent, and unhappy people.
. Men are given the choice to do good or evil. If God were to interfere everytime man does evil, how do u expect man to learn from his mistakes, grow spiritually and evolve into a better human being? It's all a spiritual process and evil is necessary for the spiritual strengthening of humankind. Just imagine an overprotective teacher who constantly gives away answers to students in a test, not allowing them to find the answers themselves. How would they really learn and grow?
Indeed ,even God himself in the Quran states that he chooses not to interfere in the ways of the world . So, yes he will let Evil exist. But that does not mean he condones it. In fact every where in the Quran he talks about not following the steps of the devil ( evil comes from devil). Now, I will tell you why he does not interfere or he "allows" it to happen. The reason is that God gave us free will :he wants to create an extroardinary human being who does good thru his own free will.
Every theist's answer to the problem of evil I've ever heard has wound up sounding, itself, evil:
God allows a pedophile to rob a kid of their free will because he doesn't want to rob the pedo of free will... God allows natural disasters to drown infants because of some adult sinners who happen to be in the same city... God makes you suffer so you 'grow' begging the question of why he didn't make you 'grown' in the first place; does he like drawing it out??
God is loving but in a sense we tie his hands because God does not impose his will on us. We therefore must willingly ask for Gods help and guidance and act according to his will which has the greater purpose in mind. Basically I'm saying we have our portion of responsibility if God could come down and wipe all our problems away he'd have done it long ago it doesn't work that way. Actually God has everthing by himself but love we are to be God's partners and objects of love, his children.
God is not loving or he does not exist. There is no logical way around it. The world would be an awful place even if men were perfectly good (which they are not). He made the world filled with disease, natural disasters, and evil people etc. People cannot be responsible for diseases, the weather, or other people. People are punished even when they are good. IF a god created this world, he is unjust and unloving.
This life is a preparation for the next. This life is meant to be a school of love we learn love in many ways and on many levels. God takes responsibility for what he does it is we who do not take responsibility and blame all our problems and suffering on God. God's understanding and ways are above and beyond ours but he does not want us to remain in ignorance. If there is a God he definitely wants us to understand his heart and nature we are created to be able to do so.
God gives us free will, without freewill there is no love. God created good and man created evil. Evil is the misuse of good, the root of evil is selfishness or selfish desire. Evil is using someone else for my benefit to their detriment. Good is living for the sake of others. Doing things for their benefit. God defines good and evil, man fell into error and selfish evil behavior. our love was corrupted and our minds were deceived it all began from jealousy and selfish desire, result ignorance.
Love can easily exist without free will. Why can't it? Also, what evidence do you have that we have free will? Many scientist don't believe we do. Again you make assumptions and state them like they were obvious facts. Man defines Good and Evil, not some imaginary God. Gods have the morality we give them. Ancient immoral men created our God, that is why he is so immoral in the scriptures. The most jealous and selfish character of all is the christian God.
If there is suffering there is a reason. Perhaps we have left our true station in life and gone outside of the realm of true love. Perhaps we have responsibility in causing the suffering and responsibility in ending it. Actually God wants us to be co-creators with him and embody his ideal and reflect his nature. I can understand your scepticism I too have asked these questions and this small paragraph does not explain the answer well. We have left our home, suffering helps us to remember.
Suffering exists not because of god because he does not exists. Suffering is due to natural selection and exists to help us stay away from what could kill or harm us. If you understand evolution our suffering becomes inevitable and understandable. Because evolution is not a person and is non-moral, it creates us to survive. Apparently continuous happiness and non-suffering have little if any survival value. I would rather have a long life with suffering in it than a short life with none.
You are telling me that you are very angry and have suffered great loss and lost your faith. There are many levels of suffering are you talking about physical suffering or emotional suffering. Suffering due to the loss of a loved one? Yes we can learn from suffering and we can be perfected and strengthened by suffering. But what is the goal of developeing charactor?
There you go again with your self serving assumptions! I have suffered no more than others, probably less. You need to see me as a suffering person so you can discount what I say. Adhominem fallacy. The only reason to mature is to be happier and more functional. Suffering is usually part of it. But abject suffering is not necessary and frequently causes mental disorders thus interfering with development.
I was asking about your suffering. I never assumed you have suffered more than others.
"The reason to mature is to be happier". I like that and I agree. So suffering can contribute to happiness. Actually happiness is the Goal for God. But how then does happiness arise? People feel joy when their desires are fulfilled.
Where do you think happiness and sadness originate? From mindless matter? How did mindless matter develope emotion or even desire? How about love or hate or jealousy?
Why do you assume that "mindless matter" cant produce a creature who feels emotion, love, joy, and desire. Why make such a needless assumption. Since we are here and we know we are a product of evolution and that our bodies and minds are equip to survival, we must assume that joy and desire make us do things that help us survive- like have sex, form supportive friendships for defense, work hard for a sense of satisfaction, etc. Why is this so hard for you to imagine?
I don't assume you've suffered more than others. I agree the goal is happiness, same for God. What I am seeing, you can not believe in God the way fundamentalists do. What if God is different then fundamentalists have understood? Your main contention is that if there is a God why is there so much suffering? Is that correct?
No, My contentions are. 10 There is no physical scientific evidence for Gods existence 2) Religion does not make people more moral 3) Religion frequently makes the human situation worse 4) Theology is self contradictory and absurd 5) The definition of the christian God is self contradictory 6) Religious morals are immoral and religion frequently encourages homophobia, racism, sexism, slavery, sexual prudishness, and selfishness. Thus, I do not believe in any Gods or religions.
u tell me the answer of just one question that u are created by a dot of blood when u born u were a baby then u grew up and now u are about to die then u will die like every one have to.doesn,t it make sence taht how u r created u passed the life and u died doesn,t it makes any sence to ur senceless brain how nights and days change how air blow who made roof of sky who made planents and how people come and go.doesn,t it makes sence that there is some one creater of all this u senceless
Nothing you said would make anyone with a scientific mind believe in a god. The universe seems to exist on its own. You have supplied nothing that would suggest otherwise.
there are those questions that every christian has in their own head... i was one of them. they try to rationalize them and can't. most just answer- it's gods plan, only god knows about that.... it's a sad vicious circle. thanks for posting ;)
this is one of those questions that christians try to go around and never really answer. they say, well but this is gods plan, he gave us free will and all that stuff. well god must have also free will, and what does he do with it? what choice does he make on behalf of humanity? he chooses to let it suffer for his "perfect plan" needless to say, it makes no sense.
with banishing so many "people" to such a bad place. I think that's why He waits so long, and lets Evil do so many bad things for so long. Maybe He wanted to prove to Himself and us that evil must be prevented from influencing good. It's easy to banish Hitler, but a kid that stole a candy bar? He had to show the end-result of sin. At that point He & we would understand the banishment. I don't know these things, and there's more to this. Hopefully you see where I'm going with this. Later :)
God is limited...that's my theory, anyway. I don't think that Jesus arbitrarily does things. I think He does them because He "has to"...whatever that means. :) So, I believe that He had to become a human, die, come back to life and remain alive for us to "get saved"...whatever that means. :) Why didn't He just start us off at that point? I don't know, but my theory is that He had to completely separate "bad" from ever influencing "good": Hell. I'm sure that He and Heaven had problems...
I'm a Christian, and I've thought about God being evil, etc. for years, and I think that my ideas are outside the norm of cultural-Christianity. Some of my questions to Christians are "Why did God allow Satan to tempt us?" & "Why didn't God just go all virgin-birth on Eve?" My main question to Christians is "Could God have us believe in something else besides Jesus for salvation?" These questions require a lot of preface, and there is a possibility that is often overlooked: God being limited.
Speaking as someone in a state of flux between being an Buddhist agnostic and a Buddhist atheist, I can freely admit that believing in god(s) provides some level of comfort. God is who/what I have turned to in the past when I felt I could not overcome an obstacle. As a psychologist I am sure you are very familiar with Maslow's hierarchy of needs. When I do not feel that there is a person who can help me satisfy needs ranging from safety to self--actualization, I turn to God.
I am not saying that I am making a logical decision by turning to God. It is entirely possible that I am like the teenager who keeps trying different acne creams until, miraculously, I find a product that clears my skin. Even if the product doesn't always clear my skin, I will continue to use it because it worked before. In that same fashion, if I pray for something and I get that something, I may be attributing my success to divine intervention instead of my own hard work.
I agree, but what is the price of belief? If we buy into one wrong belief, why not others? Where does it end? Maybe faith can be used in safe small doses, but you wont see most theists asserting this and that is my concern. In order to reduce or prevent the harm religion does, it requires that theists and other religious persons own the fact that there ideologies have the potential for harm. Then they must discuss and implement ways to prevent this harm.
This is a hard thing to do when you are in denial that your beliefs can cause harm because you believe your beliefs are perfect. Also, if one has suspended ones logical capacities in order to make it easy to believe, will one be able to detect the harm they are doing let alone have the capacity to know what to do about it, or, will they simply deny the evidence of harm they way they deny the evidence against their beliefs. Irrational people have a hard time seeing what they are actually doing.
you are opening your self up for a religious rebuttal im just saying you want to use lodgic to fight religion you will only get a bible quote so my advice to you let it go man there's no winning or loseing in debates like this its like debating wether or not the tooth fiery is real "believe what i believe" save your self the trouble
I am afraid that you are right. However, converting someone is not my goal. I am more into trying to get others to see how I and other atheists think because most theists don't understand us. Their perception of us is based on preconceived notions. Someone may not agree with me, but by talking to me it might become harder to demonize me.
No you have it wrong..we would know him if we would ask him..and just wondering but where has the eyes of the heart been proved invalid and unreliable?
You're ill and must choose 1 of 2 meds. One comes from research, the other from a God vision. Isn't it common sense to choose the first med. God can do anything and wants us to know him, yet chooses to remain invisible to our eyes. Why make it hard to know him, why not make it easy. Please explain? And don't give me that "he is everywhere if you look" crap. I mean it literally. Why wont God show himself. Why require faith? See my Video "RE: Questions that can get me into trouble: God is a cruel"
no it is not part of his plan..at all his plan for all of us is to see the truth and you have to come to grips with that..or you will just keep being locked up in empty philosophy. "See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men [colossians 2:8]"
God just wants you to see who he truely is. Its not about facts or what things look like. use the eyes of your heart rather than the eye of flesh for it is more reliable. He loves you!!
You are asking me to be willfully and purposefully irrational. The "eyes of the heart" have been proven invalid and unreliable. If God exists he does not want me to see who he truly is, if he did he would simply reveal himself; he has not. A god who hides and is not truly out in the open to be literally seen and heard, cannot claim to want to be known. If being known were important to him we would all know him. It is only reasonable to say he does not care about us very much or he does not exist
It was about lucifer choosing to go agaisnt Gods authority he thought he was better than God and look what happen..God did not creat evil it was lucifer's choice that this all started and you have to just understand that..im sry if this explanation does not help you to understand
But your explanation is logically absurd. God created Satan and his nature to begin with. God can't keep blaming people for decisions when people make decisions form their natures, natures god gave them. If the devil is rebellious and arrogant, its because god made him that way. God must have known he would rebel because he knows the future. God wanted the devil to rebel, its part of his plan. Everything in the world must be part of his plan, thus God is evil because the world has evil in it.
"I believe that people are more moral with logic and rationality than with faith. I believ that if you gave up faith you would be an even happier and more moral person. I think the God delusion is keeping you from your full potential." I am so happy now..and when i was bound by sin and things i was literaly extremely unhappy, there were times i wanted to give up everything, thank God i didnt give up..i mean everything in my life is great God's hand really truely is upon me..
Great, your protective sky father makes you happy. But this same father is poison to many of us. We don't like God being touted as a panacea for everyone. I don't want anyone else to be hurt the way I was hurt and they way so many other people are hurt by the lies of religion. I have every right to warn people of the negative consequences of fooling with drugs, religion, guns, etc. Christians want to put their ideas into the heads of others without realizing the potential harm they might do.
I believe that people are more moral with logic and rationality than with faith. I believ that if you gave up faith you would be an even happier and more moral person. I think the God delusion is keeping you from your full potential.
You could be just as strong as you are now without the God delusion. I think it is sad that you do not see that, that you do not see how naturally good you are. Atheists are the true optimists and lovers of human kind. We believe all of us can do it on our own and that goodness exists in people naturally. It only needs training and encouragement.
But God DID bring evil into the world by creating it and allowing it to happen. Why does God engage in this pointless sharade when he could solve everything now? Why does he use such an indirect approach as talking through ancient profits? Why does God need us to decide for ourselves to do good or evil? I don't want my neighbor to have the choice to kill me or not. I want God to make that choice for him by making my neighbor all good. Why should I suffer do to God's insistence on free will?
You still seem to miss the point. God created the devil and the devil's mentality, therefore, God is responsible for the devil's behavior. At the very least, God could destroy the devil or change his nature to good. You still can't face the fact that if there is ANY evil in the world it is only because God allows it. If I allow someone to drown that I could save, I am as guilty of murder as if I killed the person myself. There fore God is evil for allowing evil. God does not exist or he is evil.
the burdon of proof on the spiritual really is not a burdon....God will show you at the snap of a finger if you ask..there is evidence everywhere of God each service i go to new things happen..and let me tell you..it amazes me..there is no scientific data of the earth being formed by itself what do you have on this subject? i want to hear this yet i dont want to stray away frm wht we were talkin about but i suppose we have to go through this too
What you are describing does not fit any definition of evidence I have ever heard of. You are talking about hypotheses that "explain" things. Explaining and proving are not the same thing. What is possible is not the same as what is probable, supported by evidence, or likely. If a God truly exists and wants me to believe in him he must show some morality and fix the world and visit me personally. Anything short of that is unacceptable.
Let me say this...you have to get the evidence for yourself...no one can tell you what God has shown them or its not going to be believed. So why dont you find the evidence for yourself ask God to show you who he is..I know He is there becuase of major personal experiences..You cant nessacerly look at facts and things like that because most of all facts were studied by man and thought out by man..but find facts frm God..he is waiting for you..
The burden of proof is on the spiritual to prove spiritual things exist. The problem isn't that there is evidence against God. How can there be evidence of any kind for something that does not exist? There is a complete lack of scientific evidence for the existence of a God. God is described as in intimate contact with the universe everywhere and yet leaves no obvious evidence anywhere? Scientific data shows a universe that is self-generating and uncaused, that came into existence on its own.
i believe that not believing in God is just a convienent way to do what you want without someone to convict you of it see when someone rules out the possiblity of a God then who says what is good or bad? man makes the decision so therfore it is convienent for man to say their is no God.which interpertations and expierences were you talking about? im sry i didnt catch that..And you also should know that there is no science which over rules the possibility of the spiritual things.
Since God is manufactured, we have created all of our morality all along anyway. You say the absence of God precludes morality. But, we live in a world with no God and with many moralities derived from sources other than blind faith in a book. Man created moralities (the only kind that exist) based on logic are far more moral than faith based moralities that usually justify immoral behavior by saying its what God wants. Experiences of "god" are unreliable as sources of truth and morality.
But where do these experiences of God come from and how can we verify their origin. We listen to other peoples interpretations and accept them, or use our own judgment. Either way the source is man and there is no evidence that a deity is involved. Even if there were a deity, we would still interpret him with cultural prejudices and personal biases. I believe that God is a convenient way to hold unreasonable and prejudiced viewpoints by justifying it with, "thats what God says."
no..his plan was for us to live in happiness with out suffering, but when satan came into the picture he brought sin into the world as well...now i encourage you to choose to except God and then you will find that there is a way to live with out suffering..and after you live here on earth he has an even better place for us heaven!! and to be honest i am real excited about this..:)and i also wanted to clear up that i dont come to you in an angry way and i dont want to make you angry with me,
If his real plan is for us to live in happiness he could either make the devil good or not have allowed the devil to come into existence. If heaven is even better, why not be a merciful god and send us all there now and do away with this existence. This existence seems meaningless and arbitrary and there is no moral justification for it. It is random and not the creation of any moral agency. If it were, it would be drastically different. We live and die in pain. No loving God is involved.
and it is not his choice that we suffer he wants so badly for us to just choose the right choice..he is a gentlemen he will NOT force his message on you..if you do not choose he will not make you choose.
No It does not answer the question. By giving us the capacity for evil he created evil and must be responsible for it. He creates human unhappiness by using the excuse of choice. Would you not like to live in a world where neither you nor anyone else hand the capacity for evil and all our tendencies were good? This supposed God give us a selfish nature, gives us choice, and then puts us in a hostile painful, unforgiving environment with limited resources over which we are forced to compete.
God did take away all sin when he sent his son Jesus to earth to die for our sins so now we have the choice to get forgiveness from him, but the fact is we have our own will God says that he gave us a choice to choose sin from what is right..so He doesnt wipe sin away because he wants us to choose to wipe it away ourselves...if he wiped it all away then it would not be our choice..bottom line..He gave us a choice. Does that answer your question?
God waits 188 thousand years after we came into existence (he must have been asleep) and send his son to be tortured and killed so we can be forgiven for something God gave us to begin with. I find the idea that someone should die for someone else's "sins" deplorable and immoral. So Jesus has to die because God couldn't make a better human? Christianity is morally and logically absurd. God can do anything, yet his decisions are bizarre and cruel. God is the figment of an ancient barbaric mind.
It actually would be logical for a god to be both "evil" and "good", but it would not be possible of a perfect god. Morals evolve in societies depending on many different variables: climate, geography, outside influence, etc. Morals have nothing to do with an all powerful entity.
I agree. But try telling that t devout Christians and Muslims. To Muslims, for instance, what is moral is what muhammmad did or said, not some logical set of reasoning values. for them God is the source of values.
Now I see why they warn christians in sunday school about people like you, you are intelligent, but don't have any real intelligence. Why don't you read the Bible, not just little parts, but all of it. Try to preach against it, record it, listen to it, and hear how unintelligent you sound. Thank you
Oh Please! Most atheists have read more of the Bible than most uneducated Christians. I am a non-Christians BECAUSE I have read the bible and been offend by its violence, homophobia, and disrespect of women. Why would you want to believe in a book that condones violence, whose God feels no compunction in killing people. Christian theology is morally and logically ridiculous. Reading more of the bible will not change this fact. that which I have read is repulsive to me.
This is a ridiculous statement. The people who wrote the bible were ancient desert people, yet you'd believe them over other ancient myths? I was a Christian minister, and I probably know the bible better than most Christians and I am now an atheist. It has nothing to do with intelligence, the stupidest moron in the world could figure out there is no god; it takes an ego to believe a god died for you and speaks to you,etc.
I'm sure you aren't living like Wotan and Thor are god; or that Dionysus and Apollo are gods; or any number of gods throughout history that you don't believe in. Out of thousands upon thousands of gods through history you choose one...Christians like to use pascals wager, well 1 out of thousands is not good odds, sorry.
Scientists have just discovered genes that cause mental retardation. So by the law of opposites there must be a gene or genes associated with genius. Consider the possibility? What if the brain contains a blueprint of the universe? What if everthing we have imagined and created is only a past recollection? It would certainly put a spin on things. Maybe someday we will know.
Ouch! I agree it is a bad example but I'm sure that you could come up with one yourself otherwise we both will not wake up in the morning. Your comments have a familiar ring. You and Skepticsage may have something in common. If you have been following the dialogue then maybe you are open to the thought that as computers are able to contain more and more information then why not our brains. We have no real understanding of its capacity or capability. What if we could unlock its secrets?
Going back to our topic. I am interested in the incredible revelation that there is an afterlife and that there will be a time and place when all pain and suffering, bickering and confusion will end. Another begining. Genesis 2 is on the horizon. After all isn't that what we are trying to achieve now. We just need a little friendly, divine intervention to help us across the line. By the way it has been great sharing our thoughts and opinions. Peace.
Sorry, I was picky but you did advocate that you prefered free thinking individuals. I was responding to your statement. With regard to Absolute Truth I think it exists particularly if it is historical and even geographical.E.G In 2008 there is a state in Australia named NSW. It is a verfiable fact, and will not change because no matter what happens afterwards in 2008 NSW existed. It is 100% (absolute)fact and this fact is true. Facts whether we like to admit it or not are true or false. )
One other thought for you. According to a group of leading maths experts who were asked to calcuate the possibility of life similar to our own existing in the universe, multi verse or expanding space used an equation and came up with the number 8. Now here's the fascinating bit. We couldn't have begun all at the same time? What if one is say 2000 years ahead of us? Maybe they are our God or Gods and maybe not. Your thoughts?
Who knows. The mathematical equations you describe are totally arbitrary. I doubt that life on this planet started in any way other than natural processes.
You asked me earlier do I have a theory. Well here is one for the road. If God does not exist in the past or the present He will or should I say they will in the future. Time will see to that. Use your imagination and ask yourself where will we be in 500 years. We have had millions of years to get to this stage and what we have discovered and achieved in the last 50 years is exciting. If scientists can crack the genetic code for aging we may well be well on the road to immortality.
Some scientists say that omnisciennce is impossible in tis universe. therefor the hypothetical God you speak of would be very different than any God posited by religious people, so maybe we should call such a being a evolved being and leave it at that.
Further more what do we really know to be absolute truth. Absolute Truth is independent of the sphere in which it is placed in. Otherwise we have the old saying exceptions make the rule just to make everything fit.
One I thing I am puzzled over is the word believe. You mentioned the word and according to your misssion statement you don't. You cry out for the truth that can be tried and tested and yet to believe in something is to suggest you think it to be true but in fact it may not. So do you believe in the beat of most evolutionary colleagues? Knowing this is not an absolute fact because not all agree and if you somehow are undecided why use it?
Technically, if we want to be picky, there is no such thing as absolute fact. Everything can be altered by new evidence. SO truth by its very nature is evolving and revised. that is why religion is so unsatisfactory, it has a hard time changing in the face of new evidence since it frequently believes it has eternal truths. The term eternal truth is a contradiction in terms.
Exactly, couldn't have said it much better SkepticSage. Most non-believers I know will change their views with the facts, most religious people will defy the facts and will not change their beliefs for anything. They rationalize it; maybe it was the devil, maybe they aren't doing the experiments right, etc. I sometimes change my opinions on a weekly basis. You want to find our ultimate potential, thats it- being able to change.
Some brains may operate that way but the mind of many incredible people don't. Self preservation is not on the agenda and they have willing surrendered there life for that of another. e g.( ST Kolbe) Such sacrifice has it rewards and those that truly practice the second great commandment inspire others to live a better life and hopefully make this a better place.
Your assuming that altruism has nothing to do with survival. In fact, most evolutionary psychologists believe that morality,selflessness, and cooperation have survival value and are in fact in born. The point I was trying to make is that this in born morality has nothing to do with Jesus, buddha, muhammad or anyone else. We were moral beings and lived in communities of rules long before the advent of Christianity, Islam and Judaism.
It might suggest that we are born with some innate knowledge or intelligence that Christains might arribute to being part of the spirit or the spirit itself. It might be part of the brain that we know nothing about.
Our brain is concerned only with survival, due to the survival of the fittest. Does religion have survival value? Did it once have survival value and does it have survival value anymore. Many animals develop attributes that help them survive but then work against their survival when the environment changes. Could the environment of humans have changed such that religion has gone from helping us survive to being a threat to our survival.
That is hypothetical not proven and besides what does this say about the afterlife. I am not following you??? Please help me to understand. Are you saying we are born with information in our heads telling us of God and the afterlife? What survival value would being born with lies like these in our heads have.
Look at the australian Bower bird for maybe a clue to answer this question. The males build a bower but the nestlings are not exposed to one since the female builds a separate nest. Yet when the males mature they know how to build a bower in the manner of its kind.
Some say it learn it from its parent's, It was reared in the nest and was exposed to the design. Here is the theory. What if you were able to take some wren's egg and say place them in another nest which was disimliar to their own. If two wrens were brought together both reared in differnt nest's ( FINCH) what type of nest would they build for their young?
The bird that builds a most unusual and elaborate nest is the Wren. It is round and enclosed and has a small hole in it to enter and exit. It has a definite design and all Wrens build this type of nest. Why can't it build another type of nest? Where did it learn its design? I will continue...
extroadinary statements require extroadinary evidence. The real catch cry here. Ok.
Is it possible that when we come into this world we may have brought with us some knowlege or is it all learned here. I will explain my thought process here. Take for example birds.They build nests and some some very elaborate and specific for that kind of bird. How does the bird know it has to build that type of nest because it is that type of bird. I will continue...
It seems to me that I am unable to share with you my personal experience but I know from that experience there is life after death and I am not afraid to die which gives me more energy to live. I value and enjoy my life more because I have ditched fear.
Oh I see, so the belief in an afterlife reduces fear. I guess I am more concerned about truth than fear. Also, I apparently am able to be ok with the thought of no afterlife and eternal nothingness. Why this is so for me and not most Christians is a question I have been unable to answer. Maybe you have a theory.
What experience did you have? I cannot imagine such an experience. Any experience I have in this life is just that, in this life. How could it have any bearing on an afterlife. The only way I can think to know about death is to die. many have said they have had near death experiences, but that proves nothing since these experiences can be explained as the experience of a dying brain.
Well in the book Man's search for happiness the belief in the concentration camp was simply I will live and continue to live in the hope that this situation will end. I will imagine a better place for those who adopted this belief, most survived.
Celebrate your life and value it for we can say it is a gift and a gift sometimes is meant to be shared. Someone once said that we are so afraid to die we have forgotten to live.
Being afraid to die is due to how we think about death. When we are dead we feel nothing (including the fear of death) so there is nothing to be afraid of. When we are dying the pain is brief and thinking about it now will do nothing thus fear is unnecessary. Belief in an afterlife is not necessary to come to terms with death, though I realize it works well.
Jesus according to the bible conquered death and this is how he converted his disciples, They did not have to exercise faith as such they knew that He was the real deal and all that he taught them had to be shared. So the message is simple whether you believe in God or not in this lifetime you will take that belief to the grave, but after that are you prepared for what follows?
This is where we differ. I do not believe the bible is accurate, thus what it says about jesus carries little weight. None of us is prepared for an afterlife since it is impossible to know if such a thing exists, and if it does exist we have no idea of what it will be like and what we must do to deal with it.
The gospel or the good news was simply. "That there is life after death." To those who may have lived in wretched times and circumstances the thought that there was something better beyond the grave gave rise to the popular saying "Death where is thy sting." All of the disciples of Christ willingly died for their beliefs or was it that they really knew that this life is only momentary." Christains disagree about whether we are saved by grace or good works.
Questions: Are you saying it is good for people to believe in life after death? I wonder if people who are afraid of death and do not want to die, are they more likely to value there lives and the lives of others. Conversely, dose beleivng in a perfect afterlife make this life seem paltry in comparison, reducing its value? Do people who think they are living for an afterlife really work hard to get the most out of this life?
My first thought about this question is to do with Christains. Hopefully all so called Christains believe in Jesus Christ who according to the Bible was the son of God. He also said he was here to do the will of his father. So what was the will of his father? And what is the Gospel all about?
I would like to respond to your genuine desire to know if God really exists? Like pilgrim I composed my thoughts on the matter only to find out after about the limitation of character. Trying to down size it caused me to lose the whole thing. So I will do smaller portions.
Answer part 5 - Sorry; I had to split up my answer because it only allows 500 characters per post. Please see part 1 below and read posts in reverse order. Thanks.
Thank you so much for responding. You do not know how much I appreciate it. I have gotten so much hateful e-mail and little of it was intelligent like your own. I would love a response to my responses. After all, how will I ever come to understand how Christians think? I look forward to your responses. Thanks again.
I know you are going hate the Christian God even more for this answer. Your response would be expected. I hate God also by nature. I don't want to believe in a God who would create a place call hell either. But, on the other hand, I see my own depravity and I must admit, I deserve God's wrath.
I don't hate "God." How can I hate a fantasy that comes from people's minds. I see God as depraved because he is a character created by evil human beings. Ancient man was far more evil than most Europeans today. Our moral standards are so different form the ancients that the God they created also seems evil to many of us.
Manifesting his glory is not good, it is just egotistical. You make god sound like an ego-maniac. Damnation of sinners is itself evil, he could make people incapable of sin but choses to make them capable, apparently prone toward "sin." They sin because he has given them the capacity for choice and the tendency toward sin. He is allowing them to come to harm by setting them up to fail. Then uses cruel sadistic punishments after the fact. Quite evil indeed.
There can be no good purpose to allow evil to exist. If god is all powerful, he can reach all purpose without the necessity of evil. Thus, he could always do what he needs to do without resorting to allowing evil.
If I did understand correctly, then problem with your argument is that you assume that the allowance (on the part of God) for the existence of evil is necessarily evil.
If allowing evil to come to another is not evil than the word evil has no meaning. If I harm someone I am evil by the any definition of evil I have ever read. If I allow someone to come to harm it is just as evil, like I did it myself. i assume God is held to the same moral standards we are. if God does not hold himself to the same moral standards he is hypocritical.
uhh yea your point is bad, it says in the bible that god wants us to make that choice!!!tolove him or not!! If god made us love him , why would he make us in the 1st place? NOW ANSWER THAT question ,im atheistbytheway
By giving us the choice to choose badly (in ways that make us unhappy or put us in danger),god is similar to a neglectful irresponsible parent that lets their teenage kid use drugs because they believe it is best to give their children free will. Giving up free will (assuming it exists) would be a small price for eternal happiness. If God can do anything, he could have given us free will and happiness together. Christians must explain why their God has chosen not to do so.
My previous comment raises an interesting problem. There are many approaches to getting theists to see that their thinking is wrong. Your profession may be useful in determining what approaches are most effective.
Unfortunately, cognitive restructuring USUALLY requires the trust, compliance, and willingness of the subject. However, there are methods used by negotiators in which you get someone to acknowledge a easy to accept fact before you explain its implications. When the implications are explained, the subject is forced to either accept a bigger fact or contradicting themselves.
The theist's typical response is that God gave us free will, so we bring suffering on ourselves. It's a really lame response because "S/He" clearly makes all kinds of natural disasters and diseases that have nothing to do with free will. This is one of the questions that theists tend to go silent on, so bravo to you for bringing it up.
I can awnser this question for you. God keeps evil in this world as a sort of.... test, i guess you would call it. Think of it this way, if the world was perfect, what would be the point of heaven? Heaven is perfect, earth is not. Yes, God could make the world free of evil, but he doesnt to make stronger believers. There would be no point in going to heaven and being with god if the earth was perfect. I hope that anwsers ur question-- God bless.
joshthemann1 9 months ago
@joshthemann1 Why is the test necessary? Why not make us moral if he is all good. By making some of us evil and some of us good (most of us both) he creates a situation where we are "tested" to see if we have attributes HE has given us, with him already knowing what will happen. Does this not sound like a waist of time to you? Why give us the capacity to fail if he can spare us this suffering? This test is like a boy pulling wings off an insect, it is sadistic. This God is unworthy of worship.
SkepticSage 9 months ago
Is there really anyone interested in watching this retard. While I know there is no God. This guy is so obviously a Muslim. Trying to get other cowards to turn towards another even more cowardly belief. Which is Islam. SAGE!! LOFL You sound like an asshole and look even more like one. Stop making bombs and go shave. You got time to shave your head but not your face? lmfao.
Michiganman2cali 11 months ago
@Michiganman2cali This retard, as you call him, has a doctoral degree. What education do you have? Any? I am not and have never been a Muslim, I am an atheist, as I say in the video, had you bothered to listen, you dumbshit. You are a presumptuous bigoted immature child. What is cowardly is attacking people without knowing anything about them. You have been blocked. I don't have time to waste on immature children who make assumptions based on nothing.
SkepticSage 11 months ago
I'm just glad im not the only one with a fully functioning brain in this world =) You sir, have my thumbs up!
Hrko1992 11 months ago
Evilness proves that there's an evil being at work influencing people's minds and actions i.e. Satan aka the devil. and because Satan exists, that means that God must also exist. God balances the devil. God will always try to influence people's minds just like evilness does however most of the time it doesn't work because he allows people to have freewill and most of the time people let satan invade their minds. that's why we live in a fucked up society as you stated.
FallofDarkness55 1 year ago
@FallofDarkness55 We live in a "fucked-up" society because of people like you who beleive in stupid crazy things. The more crazy things people beleive the more their judgment is clouded and the more likely dysfunction will be the result. DO you not see the incredible arbitrariness of your statement? Why does the existence of evil prove the existence of Satan? Could not evil exist for many reasons? Why ignore other possibilities? Evil exists because it is an inevitable result of natural laws.
SkepticSage 1 year ago 4
@SkepticSage there's always symmetry to everything. you can observe that with planets, organisms and arbitrarily in nature. if this inevitable evil power exists in natural laws then it is also inevitable for a good power to exist in natural laws due to symmetry. in fact another example of symmetry would be matter and anti-matter. and no i'm not delusional. i'm open to all possibilities and not an obstinate fool like you who jumps to immediate conclusions about our place in the universe.
FallofDarkness55 1 year ago
This has been flagged as spam show
BTW I love the guy below who says 'You simply have to read the bible.
Just another one who didn't read the book.'
Your reply could have been much more succinct and effective.
'Just another one who has only read one book.'
ptolemyauletesXII 1 year ago
Of course God is evil. The Bible proves it again and again. God commands his followers to rape, murder, commit genocide, lie, steal, kidnap. Yet Christians are so blind to the reality of what the Hebrew tribes did to their fellow human beings that they will jump time and again to the defence of God. This is never done in any kind of coherent manner, but rather with some explanation that boils down to 'they were evil, and deserved it, because God is good.'
ptolemyauletesXII 1 year ago
In response to evil things in the world = evil or no god, why does the existence of a god assume no evil? Couldn't a "good" god exist yet not have any concern with us because we are so insignificant? A "good" person can exist and neglect to better things smaller than he/she.
OutdoorAdventure100 2 years ago
whywontgodhealamputees is a good place for christians to check out similar to your points.
TXatheist 2 years ago
the war of the gods is real.
all that happened in the bible really happened and is in the past, get over it, nothing you can do to change it
archeology continues to prove the bible as fact to this day, do to TRUE & ACCURATE INFORMATION
I'll follow the bible which is FACTUAL & TRUE
& NOT follow YOU
face the truth
MrAubery 2 years ago
You make assumptions without evidence. How do you know the bible is true when most historians beleive it is not? What archeology are you talking about? Not all archeology fits with the bible, in fact most does not. If you were to read sources outside of the Christian propaganda you have been reading you would find that what I am saying is just what archeologists and historians are saying. You need to read some objective sources. You will never get objectivity from christian apologists.
SkepticSage 2 years ago
God says when he will come and end satans arguement. You simply have to read the bible.
Just another one who didn't read the book.
MrAubery 2 years ago
God has said nothing, He cant because he does not exist. On the otehr hand, humans claiming they speak for a false god, say lots of things and contradict each other. Which book are you referring to? Every culture and religion has a book that contradicts the books of other religions and cultures. All of them are alike in that all are lies.
SkepticSage 2 years ago
Because reading a book that encourages you to stone anyone god doesn't like accomplishes so much.
PX6DEVASTATER 2 years ago
As for what you said about God creating man with the capacity for evil and does nothing to stop the evil from manifesting , that is because he wants us to stop it: that's the whole point, that's the whole purpose. There is a god within each one of us, but we are too scared to assume this huge responsibility, so we just let things get bad to worse, till the task becomes too over whelming. It's like leaving your bathroom dirty for a whole year, and then blaming your mom for not cleaning it !
Ruby6222 2 years ago
But wanting us to stop it is unreasonable and unjust. Why should we be responsible for stopping something he created in the first place? The existence of violence only makes sense if you see it as a survival instinct created by evolution not as a curse given by a god. We clearly are NOT the creation of a loving god. If we were we would be good and functional. Instead we act exactly like one would expect from a wild animal with too much instinct and not enough intelligence.
SkepticSage 2 years ago
As for disasters and death, it is part of nature. If you believed in life after death, this wouldn't be such a big deal. But, being an atheist, the thought of death and disaster is plain torture because you actually believe we have only one life to live. You are restricting yourself, literally imprisoning yourself in an imaginary cage: that is your deluded belief there is nothing after death.Did it ever occur to you for one moment that there might be life after death?
Ruby6222 2 years ago
Yes, of course, I have thought of the idea of life after death. But I have discounted it becuase there is no evidence and it is obvious people beleive in it to make them feel better. But that is the problem. You are saying that suffering is no being deal. This is what delusions that makes us feel better do. They make us accept things we should not accept. This explains why conservatives have believed in social Darwinism and are against welfare. The acceptance of human suffering is immoral.
SkepticSage 2 years ago
Hi skeptic,
I got your messages. Just wanted to say that I never really said religion is the solution. Actually, personally I have very little respect for most muslims today. However, I have a lot of respect for Islam. There is a big difference: muslims have misinterpreted the koran and have invented things that are not, in my opinion, even close to what God intended.
If you read the koran with an open mind, and a clean heart, you will understand that it can only be the truth from God.
Ruby6222 2 years ago
As for the innocent victims of evil, it is sad that they are the ones to take the blows. But WE are responisble as a society for what is happening to them, not God. We are the ones who have allowed evil to multiply generation after generation until it accumulated to a horrible degree. How ? By being selfish and refusing to believe in morality and not speaking up in front of corruption.We can only hope and pray that God lends a hand in cleaning up the mess WE MADE!
Ruby6222 2 years ago
I could not agree more. Selfishness and greed are behind some human suffering. However, your idea that religion is the answer is contradicted by past history of religion failing to make people more moral, encouraging people to be immoral, and encouraging people to remain idle when evil is occurring in their presence. As a tool for making societies more moral, religion has failed miserably. The most violent and immoral societies have been religious societies. Is this a coincidence?
SkepticSage 2 years ago
The "mess we made"? We did not make disease, natural disasters, death, physical abnormalities, dangerous weather, and our own brain with all its instincts. These were either made by some space daddy in the sky or by evolution. We most definitely did not make them.
SkepticSage 2 years ago
There is also a verse in the Quran, (don't recall which one) that says : "It is not God that creates the evil in the world , It is mankind" " Any bad consequence that a person lives in is of his own making . It is us humans that have to take a stand correct our bad behavior and help others to correct theirs. That is how much God has entrusted to us. It is a big responsibility but that is what will make man the extraordinary being God is trying to make of him.
Ruby6222 2 years ago
Your theology is irrational & bizarre. If god create man, he created him with the capacity for evil and does nothing to stop that capacity from manifesting itself. That makes god evil by definition. Even if this god did exist, it is clear he does not care about us or he would make our lives better. Why should we be responsible for a world that was made by someone else. Do we not make inverters responsible for what they create? How are disease, natural disasters, famines, and death of our making?
SkepticSage 2 years ago
Evil is a disguised medication that will boost a human's spirit and elevate it, but this happens only on one condition: that the human in question be insightful enough to use his free will properly and choose the right course after he has been exposed to evil. Evil is necessary to test how strong a person can be in combating it. It's like an upward climb : Evil is the gravity that's pushing you down. The better you are able to push through it's gravity the better person you will become.
Ruby6222 2 years ago
Child abusers frequently justify their behavior by claiming that abuse makes their children strong. Studies show that abuse turns children into mentally ill adults, many of them aggressive and even violent. Children are taught to be good by good parents IN PERSON, absent parents are considered neglectful and create adults who feel unworthy of love. God never appears in person. If god exists, he is abusive and neglectful and has created a world of delusional, violent, and unhappy people.
SkepticSage 2 years ago
. Men are given the choice to do good or evil. If God were to interfere everytime man does evil, how do u expect man to learn from his mistakes, grow spiritually and evolve into a better human being? It's all a spiritual process and evil is necessary for the spiritual strengthening of humankind. Just imagine an overprotective teacher who constantly gives away answers to students in a test, not allowing them to find the answers themselves. How would they really learn and grow?
Ruby6222 2 years ago
Indeed ,even God himself in the Quran states that he chooses not to interfere in the ways of the world . So, yes he will let Evil exist. But that does not mean he condones it. In fact every where in the Quran he talks about not following the steps of the devil ( evil comes from devil). Now, I will tell you why he does not interfere or he "allows" it to happen. The reason is that God gave us free will :he wants to create an extroardinary human being who does good thru his own free will.
Ruby6222 2 years ago
Every theist's answer to the problem of evil I've ever heard has wound up sounding, itself, evil:
God allows a pedophile to rob a kid of their free will because he doesn't want to rob the pedo of free will... God allows natural disasters to drown infants because of some adult sinners who happen to be in the same city... God makes you suffer so you 'grow' begging the question of why he didn't make you 'grown' in the first place; does he like drawing it out??
sam51092 2 years ago
Ahhh, the riddle of epicurus.
SlyCasanova 3 years ago
The Riddle of Epicurus
(Earliest known statement of the Problem of Evil)
If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to
Then He is not omnipotent.
If He is able, but not willing
Then He is malevolent.
If He is both able and willing
Then whence cometh evil?
If He is neither able nor willing
Then why call Him God?
SkepticSage 3 years ago
Excellent.
ghostofdayinperson 3 years ago
God is loving but in a sense we tie his hands because God does not impose his will on us. We therefore must willingly ask for Gods help and guidance and act according to his will which has the greater purpose in mind. Basically I'm saying we have our portion of responsibility if God could come down and wipe all our problems away he'd have done it long ago it doesn't work that way. Actually God has everthing by himself but love we are to be God's partners and objects of love, his children.
eezyone 3 years ago
God is not loving or he does not exist. There is no logical way around it. The world would be an awful place even if men were perfectly good (which they are not). He made the world filled with disease, natural disasters, and evil people etc. People cannot be responsible for diseases, the weather, or other people. People are punished even when they are good. IF a god created this world, he is unjust and unloving.
SkepticSage 3 years ago
This life is a preparation for the next. This life is meant to be a school of love we learn love in many ways and on many levels. God takes responsibility for what he does it is we who do not take responsibility and blame all our problems and suffering on God. God's understanding and ways are above and beyond ours but he does not want us to remain in ignorance. If there is a God he definitely wants us to understand his heart and nature we are created to be able to do so.
eezyone 3 years ago
God gives us free will, without freewill there is no love. God created good and man created evil. Evil is the misuse of good, the root of evil is selfishness or selfish desire. Evil is using someone else for my benefit to their detriment. Good is living for the sake of others. Doing things for their benefit. God defines good and evil, man fell into error and selfish evil behavior. our love was corrupted and our minds were deceived it all began from jealousy and selfish desire, result ignorance.
eezyone 3 years ago
Love can easily exist without free will. Why can't it? Also, what evidence do you have that we have free will? Many scientist don't believe we do. Again you make assumptions and state them like they were obvious facts. Man defines Good and Evil, not some imaginary God. Gods have the morality we give them. Ancient immoral men created our God, that is why he is so immoral in the scriptures. The most jealous and selfish character of all is the christian God.
SkepticSage 3 years ago
If there is suffering there is a reason. Perhaps we have left our true station in life and gone outside of the realm of true love. Perhaps we have responsibility in causing the suffering and responsibility in ending it. Actually God wants us to be co-creators with him and embody his ideal and reflect his nature. I can understand your scepticism I too have asked these questions and this small paragraph does not explain the answer well. We have left our home, suffering helps us to remember.
eezyone 3 years ago
Suffering exists not because of god because he does not exists. Suffering is due to natural selection and exists to help us stay away from what could kill or harm us. If you understand evolution our suffering becomes inevitable and understandable. Because evolution is not a person and is non-moral, it creates us to survive. Apparently continuous happiness and non-suffering have little if any survival value. I would rather have a long life with suffering in it than a short life with none.
SkepticSage 3 years ago
You are telling me that you are very angry and have suffered great loss and lost your faith. There are many levels of suffering are you talking about physical suffering or emotional suffering. Suffering due to the loss of a loved one? Yes we can learn from suffering and we can be perfected and strengthened by suffering. But what is the goal of developeing charactor?
eezyone 3 years ago
There you go again with your self serving assumptions! I have suffered no more than others, probably less. You need to see me as a suffering person so you can discount what I say. Adhominem fallacy. The only reason to mature is to be happier and more functional. Suffering is usually part of it. But abject suffering is not necessary and frequently causes mental disorders thus interfering with development.
SkepticSage 3 years ago
I was asking about your suffering. I never assumed you have suffered more than others.
"The reason to mature is to be happier". I like that and I agree. So suffering can contribute to happiness. Actually happiness is the Goal for God. But how then does happiness arise? People feel joy when their desires are fulfilled.
Where do you think happiness and sadness originate? From mindless matter? How did mindless matter develope emotion or even desire? How about love or hate or jealousy?
eezyone 3 years ago
Why do you assume that "mindless matter" cant produce a creature who feels emotion, love, joy, and desire. Why make such a needless assumption. Since we are here and we know we are a product of evolution and that our bodies and minds are equip to survival, we must assume that joy and desire make us do things that help us survive- like have sex, form supportive friendships for defense, work hard for a sense of satisfaction, etc. Why is this so hard for you to imagine?
SkepticSage 3 years ago
I don't assume you've suffered more than others. I agree the goal is happiness, same for God. What I am seeing, you can not believe in God the way fundamentalists do. What if God is different then fundamentalists have understood? Your main contention is that if there is a God why is there so much suffering? Is that correct?
eezyone 3 years ago
No, My contentions are. 10 There is no physical scientific evidence for Gods existence 2) Religion does not make people more moral 3) Religion frequently makes the human situation worse 4) Theology is self contradictory and absurd 5) The definition of the christian God is self contradictory 6) Religious morals are immoral and religion frequently encourages homophobia, racism, sexism, slavery, sexual prudishness, and selfishness. Thus, I do not believe in any Gods or religions.
SkepticSage 3 years ago
u tell me the answer of just one question that u are created by a dot of blood when u born u were a baby then u grew up and now u are about to die then u will die like every one have to.doesn,t it make sence taht how u r created u passed the life and u died doesn,t it makes any sence to ur senceless brain how nights and days change how air blow who made roof of sky who made planents and how people come and go.doesn,t it makes sence that there is some one creater of all this u senceless
shahidawan 3 years ago
NO NO NO, IT DOES NO MAKE SENSE!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nothing you said would make anyone with a scientific mind believe in a god. The universe seems to exist on its own. You have supplied nothing that would suggest otherwise.
SkepticSage 3 years ago
there are those questions that every christian has in their own head... i was one of them. they try to rationalize them and can't. most just answer- it's gods plan, only god knows about that.... it's a sad vicious circle. thanks for posting ;)
martawisnie 3 years ago
this is one of those questions that christians try to go around and never really answer. they say, well but this is gods plan, he gave us free will and all that stuff. well god must have also free will, and what does he do with it? what choice does he make on behalf of humanity? he chooses to let it suffer for his "perfect plan" needless to say, it makes no sense.
martawisnie 3 years ago
with banishing so many "people" to such a bad place. I think that's why He waits so long, and lets Evil do so many bad things for so long. Maybe He wanted to prove to Himself and us that evil must be prevented from influencing good. It's easy to banish Hitler, but a kid that stole a candy bar? He had to show the end-result of sin. At that point He & we would understand the banishment. I don't know these things, and there's more to this. Hopefully you see where I'm going with this. Later :)
jdpalm1981 3 years ago
No I don't wee where your going. Banishing a kid to hell for stealing a candy bar is ludicrous and cruel.
SkepticSage 3 years ago
God is limited...that's my theory, anyway. I don't think that Jesus arbitrarily does things. I think He does them because He "has to"...whatever that means. :) So, I believe that He had to become a human, die, come back to life and remain alive for us to "get saved"...whatever that means. :) Why didn't He just start us off at that point? I don't know, but my theory is that He had to completely separate "bad" from ever influencing "good": Hell. I'm sure that He and Heaven had problems...
jdpalm1981 3 years ago
I'm a Christian, and I've thought about God being evil, etc. for years, and I think that my ideas are outside the norm of cultural-Christianity. Some of my questions to Christians are "Why did God allow Satan to tempt us?" & "Why didn't God just go all virgin-birth on Eve?" My main question to Christians is "Could God have us believe in something else besides Jesus for salvation?" These questions require a lot of preface, and there is a possibility that is often overlooked: God being limited.
jdpalm1981 3 years ago
Speaking as someone in a state of flux between being an Buddhist agnostic and a Buddhist atheist, I can freely admit that believing in god(s) provides some level of comfort. God is who/what I have turned to in the past when I felt I could not overcome an obstacle. As a psychologist I am sure you are very familiar with Maslow's hierarchy of needs. When I do not feel that there is a person who can help me satisfy needs ranging from safety to self--actualization, I turn to God.
ClearingTheMind 3 years ago
I am not saying that I am making a logical decision by turning to God. It is entirely possible that I am like the teenager who keeps trying different acne creams until, miraculously, I find a product that clears my skin. Even if the product doesn't always clear my skin, I will continue to use it because it worked before. In that same fashion, if I pray for something and I get that something, I may be attributing my success to divine intervention instead of my own hard work.
ClearingTheMind 3 years ago
I agree, but what is the price of belief? If we buy into one wrong belief, why not others? Where does it end? Maybe faith can be used in safe small doses, but you wont see most theists asserting this and that is my concern. In order to reduce or prevent the harm religion does, it requires that theists and other religious persons own the fact that there ideologies have the potential for harm. Then they must discuss and implement ways to prevent this harm.
SkepticSage 3 years ago
This is a hard thing to do when you are in denial that your beliefs can cause harm because you believe your beliefs are perfect. Also, if one has suspended ones logical capacities in order to make it easy to believe, will one be able to detect the harm they are doing let alone have the capacity to know what to do about it, or, will they simply deny the evidence of harm they way they deny the evidence against their beliefs. Irrational people have a hard time seeing what they are actually doing.
SkepticSage 3 years ago
you are opening your self up for a religious rebuttal im just saying you want to use lodgic to fight religion you will only get a bible quote so my advice to you let it go man there's no winning or loseing in debates like this its like debating wether or not the tooth fiery is real "believe what i believe" save your self the trouble
refferman1 4 years ago
I am afraid that you are right. However, converting someone is not my goal. I am more into trying to get others to see how I and other atheists think because most theists don't understand us. Their perception of us is based on preconceived notions. Someone may not agree with me, but by talking to me it might become harder to demonize me.
SkepticSage 3 years ago
No you have it wrong..we would know him if we would ask him..and just wondering but where has the eyes of the heart been proved invalid and unreliable?
jabey1111 4 years ago
You're ill and must choose 1 of 2 meds. One comes from research, the other from a God vision. Isn't it common sense to choose the first med. God can do anything and wants us to know him, yet chooses to remain invisible to our eyes. Why make it hard to know him, why not make it easy. Please explain? And don't give me that "he is everywhere if you look" crap. I mean it literally. Why wont God show himself. Why require faith? See my Video "RE: Questions that can get me into trouble: God is a cruel"
SkepticSage 4 years ago
no it is not part of his plan..at all his plan for all of us is to see the truth and you have to come to grips with that..or you will just keep being locked up in empty philosophy. "See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men [colossians 2:8]"
God just wants you to see who he truely is. Its not about facts or what things look like. use the eyes of your heart rather than the eye of flesh for it is more reliable. He loves you!!
jabey1111 4 years ago
You are asking me to be willfully and purposefully irrational. The "eyes of the heart" have been proven invalid and unreliable. If God exists he does not want me to see who he truly is, if he did he would simply reveal himself; he has not. A god who hides and is not truly out in the open to be literally seen and heard, cannot claim to want to be known. If being known were important to him we would all know him. It is only reasonable to say he does not care about us very much or he does not exist
SkepticSage 4 years ago
It was about lucifer choosing to go agaisnt Gods authority he thought he was better than God and look what happen..God did not creat evil it was lucifer's choice that this all started and you have to just understand that..im sry if this explanation does not help you to understand
jabey1111 4 years ago
But your explanation is logically absurd. God created Satan and his nature to begin with. God can't keep blaming people for decisions when people make decisions form their natures, natures god gave them. If the devil is rebellious and arrogant, its because god made him that way. God must have known he would rebel because he knows the future. God wanted the devil to rebel, its part of his plan. Everything in the world must be part of his plan, thus God is evil because the world has evil in it.
SkepticSage 4 years ago
"I believe that people are more moral with logic and rationality than with faith. I believ that if you gave up faith you would be an even happier and more moral person. I think the God delusion is keeping you from your full potential." I am so happy now..and when i was bound by sin and things i was literaly extremely unhappy, there were times i wanted to give up everything, thank God i didnt give up..i mean everything in my life is great God's hand really truely is upon me..
jabey1111 4 years ago
Great, your protective sky father makes you happy. But this same father is poison to many of us. We don't like God being touted as a panacea for everyone. I don't want anyone else to be hurt the way I was hurt and they way so many other people are hurt by the lies of religion. I have every right to warn people of the negative consequences of fooling with drugs, religion, guns, etc. Christians want to put their ideas into the heads of others without realizing the potential harm they might do.
SkepticSage 4 years ago
I believe that people are more moral with logic and rationality than with faith. I believ that if you gave up faith you would be an even happier and more moral person. I think the God delusion is keeping you from your full potential.
SkepticSage 4 years ago
You could be just as strong as you are now without the God delusion. I think it is sad that you do not see that, that you do not see how naturally good you are. Atheists are the true optimists and lovers of human kind. We believe all of us can do it on our own and that goodness exists in people naturally. It only needs training and encouragement.
SkepticSage 4 years ago
But God DID bring evil into the world by creating it and allowing it to happen. Why does God engage in this pointless sharade when he could solve everything now? Why does he use such an indirect approach as talking through ancient profits? Why does God need us to decide for ourselves to do good or evil? I don't want my neighbor to have the choice to kill me or not. I want God to make that choice for him by making my neighbor all good. Why should I suffer do to God's insistence on free will?
SkepticSage 4 years ago
You still seem to miss the point. God created the devil and the devil's mentality, therefore, God is responsible for the devil's behavior. At the very least, God could destroy the devil or change his nature to good. You still can't face the fact that if there is ANY evil in the world it is only because God allows it. If I allow someone to drown that I could save, I am as guilty of murder as if I killed the person myself. There fore God is evil for allowing evil. God does not exist or he is evil.
SkepticSage 4 years ago
oh if you wondering me and jabey1111 r the same i have 2 screen names
jabey1111 4 years ago
the burdon of proof on the spiritual really is not a burdon....God will show you at the snap of a finger if you ask..there is evidence everywhere of God each service i go to new things happen..and let me tell you..it amazes me..there is no scientific data of the earth being formed by itself what do you have on this subject? i want to hear this yet i dont want to stray away frm wht we were talkin about but i suppose we have to go through this too
jabey1111 4 years ago
What you are describing does not fit any definition of evidence I have ever heard of. You are talking about hypotheses that "explain" things. Explaining and proving are not the same thing. What is possible is not the same as what is probable, supported by evidence, or likely. If a God truly exists and wants me to believe in him he must show some morality and fix the world and visit me personally. Anything short of that is unacceptable.
SkepticSage 4 years ago
Let me say this...you have to get the evidence for yourself...no one can tell you what God has shown them or its not going to be believed. So why dont you find the evidence for yourself ask God to show you who he is..I know He is there becuase of major personal experiences..You cant nessacerly look at facts and things like that because most of all facts were studied by man and thought out by man..but find facts frm God..he is waiting for you..
jabey1111 4 years ago
The burden of proof is on the spiritual to prove spiritual things exist. The problem isn't that there is evidence against God. How can there be evidence of any kind for something that does not exist? There is a complete lack of scientific evidence for the existence of a God. God is described as in intimate contact with the universe everywhere and yet leaves no obvious evidence anywhere? Scientific data shows a universe that is self-generating and uncaused, that came into existence on its own.
SkepticSage 4 years ago
i believe that not believing in God is just a convienent way to do what you want without someone to convict you of it see when someone rules out the possiblity of a God then who says what is good or bad? man makes the decision so therfore it is convienent for man to say their is no God.which interpertations and expierences were you talking about? im sry i didnt catch that..And you also should know that there is no science which over rules the possibility of the spiritual things.
jabey1111 4 years ago
Since God is manufactured, we have created all of our morality all along anyway. You say the absence of God precludes morality. But, we live in a world with no God and with many moralities derived from sources other than blind faith in a book. Man created moralities (the only kind that exist) based on logic are far more moral than faith based moralities that usually justify immoral behavior by saying its what God wants. Experiences of "god" are unreliable as sources of truth and morality.
SkepticSage 4 years ago
But where do these experiences of God come from and how can we verify their origin. We listen to other peoples interpretations and accept them, or use our own judgment. Either way the source is man and there is no evidence that a deity is involved. Even if there were a deity, we would still interpret him with cultural prejudices and personal biases. I believe that God is a convenient way to hold unreasonable and prejudiced viewpoints by justifying it with, "thats what God says."
SkepticSage 4 years ago
sry if i did this..
jabey1111 4 years ago
no..his plan was for us to live in happiness with out suffering, but when satan came into the picture he brought sin into the world as well...now i encourage you to choose to except God and then you will find that there is a way to live with out suffering..and after you live here on earth he has an even better place for us heaven!! and to be honest i am real excited about this..:)and i also wanted to clear up that i dont come to you in an angry way and i dont want to make you angry with me,
jabey1111 4 years ago
If his real plan is for us to live in happiness he could either make the devil good or not have allowed the devil to come into existence. If heaven is even better, why not be a merciful god and send us all there now and do away with this existence. This existence seems meaningless and arbitrary and there is no moral justification for it. It is random and not the creation of any moral agency. If it were, it would be drastically different. We live and die in pain. No loving God is involved.
SkepticSage 4 years ago
and it is not his choice that we suffer he wants so badly for us to just choose the right choice..he is a gentlemen he will NOT force his message on you..if you do not choose he will not make you choose.
jabey1111 4 years ago
No It does not answer the question. By giving us the capacity for evil he created evil and must be responsible for it. He creates human unhappiness by using the excuse of choice. Would you not like to live in a world where neither you nor anyone else hand the capacity for evil and all our tendencies were good? This supposed God give us a selfish nature, gives us choice, and then puts us in a hostile painful, unforgiving environment with limited resources over which we are forced to compete.
SkepticSage 4 years ago
God did take away all sin when he sent his son Jesus to earth to die for our sins so now we have the choice to get forgiveness from him, but the fact is we have our own will God says that he gave us a choice to choose sin from what is right..so He doesnt wipe sin away because he wants us to choose to wipe it away ourselves...if he wiped it all away then it would not be our choice..bottom line..He gave us a choice. Does that answer your question?
jabey1111 4 years ago
God waits 188 thousand years after we came into existence (he must have been asleep) and send his son to be tortured and killed so we can be forgiven for something God gave us to begin with. I find the idea that someone should die for someone else's "sins" deplorable and immoral. So Jesus has to die because God couldn't make a better human? Christianity is morally and logically absurd. God can do anything, yet his decisions are bizarre and cruel. God is the figment of an ancient barbaric mind.
SkepticSage 4 years ago
LMAO you called god a dick XD
CuteNekoKid 4 years ago
It actually would be logical for a god to be both "evil" and "good", but it would not be possible of a perfect god. Morals evolve in societies depending on many different variables: climate, geography, outside influence, etc. Morals have nothing to do with an all powerful entity.
Jkief123 4 years ago
I agree. But try telling that t devout Christians and Muslims. To Muslims, for instance, what is moral is what muhammmad did or said, not some logical set of reasoning values. for them God is the source of values.
SkepticSage 4 years ago
They will agree with that when it comes to other religions, but not theirs, lol.
Jkief123 4 years ago
Now I see why they warn christians in sunday school about people like you, you are intelligent, but don't have any real intelligence. Why don't you read the Bible, not just little parts, but all of it. Try to preach against it, record it, listen to it, and hear how unintelligent you sound. Thank you
jdizzle17diz 4 years ago
Oh Please! Most atheists have read more of the Bible than most uneducated Christians. I am a non-Christians BECAUSE I have read the bible and been offend by its violence, homophobia, and disrespect of women. Why would you want to believe in a book that condones violence, whose God feels no compunction in killing people. Christian theology is morally and logically ridiculous. Reading more of the bible will not change this fact. that which I have read is repulsive to me.
SkepticSage 4 years ago
This is a ridiculous statement. The people who wrote the bible were ancient desert people, yet you'd believe them over other ancient myths? I was a Christian minister, and I probably know the bible better than most Christians and I am now an atheist. It has nothing to do with intelligence, the stupidest moron in the world could figure out there is no god; it takes an ego to believe a god died for you and speaks to you,etc.
Jkief123 4 years ago
If you're living like there is no God, you BETTER BE RIGHT!!!!
jdizzle17diz 4 years ago
I'm sure you aren't living like Wotan and Thor are god; or that Dionysus and Apollo are gods; or any number of gods throughout history that you don't believe in. Out of thousands upon thousands of gods through history you choose one...Christians like to use pascals wager, well 1 out of thousands is not good odds, sorry.
Jkief123 4 years ago
Scientists have just discovered genes that cause mental retardation. So by the law of opposites there must be a gene or genes associated with genius. Consider the possibility? What if the brain contains a blueprint of the universe? What if everthing we have imagined and created is only a past recollection? It would certainly put a spin on things. Maybe someday we will know.
lesleyann69 4 years ago
Ouch! I agree it is a bad example but I'm sure that you could come up with one yourself otherwise we both will not wake up in the morning. Your comments have a familiar ring. You and Skepticsage may have something in common. If you have been following the dialogue then maybe you are open to the thought that as computers are able to contain more and more information then why not our brains. We have no real understanding of its capacity or capability. What if we could unlock its secrets?
lesleyann69 4 years ago
Going back to our topic. I am interested in the incredible revelation that there is an afterlife and that there will be a time and place when all pain and suffering, bickering and confusion will end. Another begining. Genesis 2 is on the horizon. After all isn't that what we are trying to achieve now. We just need a little friendly, divine intervention to help us across the line. By the way it has been great sharing our thoughts and opinions. Peace.
lesleyann69 4 years ago
Sorry, I was picky but you did advocate that you prefered free thinking individuals. I was responding to your statement. With regard to Absolute Truth I think it exists particularly if it is historical and even geographical.E.G In 2008 there is a state in Australia named NSW. It is a verfiable fact, and will not change because no matter what happens afterwards in 2008 NSW existed. It is 100% (absolute)fact and this fact is true. Facts whether we like to admit it or not are true or false. )
lesleyann69 4 years ago
One other thought for you. According to a group of leading maths experts who were asked to calcuate the possibility of life similar to our own existing in the universe, multi verse or expanding space used an equation and came up with the number 8. Now here's the fascinating bit. We couldn't have begun all at the same time? What if one is say 2000 years ahead of us? Maybe they are our God or Gods and maybe not. Your thoughts?
lesleyann69 4 years ago
Who knows. The mathematical equations you describe are totally arbitrary. I doubt that life on this planet started in any way other than natural processes.
SkepticSage 4 years ago
You asked me earlier do I have a theory. Well here is one for the road. If God does not exist in the past or the present He will or should I say they will in the future. Time will see to that. Use your imagination and ask yourself where will we be in 500 years. We have had millions of years to get to this stage and what we have discovered and achieved in the last 50 years is exciting. If scientists can crack the genetic code for aging we may well be well on the road to immortality.
lesleyann69 4 years ago
Some scientists say that omnisciennce is impossible in tis universe. therefor the hypothetical God you speak of would be very different than any God posited by religious people, so maybe we should call such a being a evolved being and leave it at that.
SkepticSage 4 years ago
Further more what do we really know to be absolute truth. Absolute Truth is independent of the sphere in which it is placed in. Otherwise we have the old saying exceptions make the rule just to make everything fit.
lesleyann69 4 years ago
One I thing I am puzzled over is the word believe. You mentioned the word and according to your misssion statement you don't. You cry out for the truth that can be tried and tested and yet to believe in something is to suggest you think it to be true but in fact it may not. So do you believe in the beat of most evolutionary colleagues? Knowing this is not an absolute fact because not all agree and if you somehow are undecided why use it?
lesleyann69 4 years ago
Technically, if we want to be picky, there is no such thing as absolute fact. Everything can be altered by new evidence. SO truth by its very nature is evolving and revised. that is why religion is so unsatisfactory, it has a hard time changing in the face of new evidence since it frequently believes it has eternal truths. The term eternal truth is a contradiction in terms.
SkepticSage 4 years ago
Exactly, couldn't have said it much better SkepticSage. Most non-believers I know will change their views with the facts, most religious people will defy the facts and will not change their beliefs for anything. They rationalize it; maybe it was the devil, maybe they aren't doing the experiments right, etc. I sometimes change my opinions on a weekly basis. You want to find our ultimate potential, thats it- being able to change.
Jkief123 4 years ago
Some brains may operate that way but the mind of many incredible people don't. Self preservation is not on the agenda and they have willing surrendered there life for that of another. e g.( ST Kolbe) Such sacrifice has it rewards and those that truly practice the second great commandment inspire others to live a better life and hopefully make this a better place.
lesleyann69 4 years ago
Your assuming that altruism has nothing to do with survival. In fact, most evolutionary psychologists believe that morality,selflessness, and cooperation have survival value and are in fact in born. The point I was trying to make is that this in born morality has nothing to do with Jesus, buddha, muhammad or anyone else. We were moral beings and lived in communities of rules long before the advent of Christianity, Islam and Judaism.
SkepticSage 4 years ago
It might suggest that we are born with some innate knowledge or intelligence that Christains might arribute to being part of the spirit or the spirit itself. It might be part of the brain that we know nothing about.
It is not concerned with survial but progression.
lesleyann69 4 years ago
Our brain is concerned only with survival, due to the survival of the fittest. Does religion have survival value? Did it once have survival value and does it have survival value anymore. Many animals develop attributes that help them survive but then work against their survival when the environment changes. Could the environment of humans have changed such that religion has gone from helping us survive to being a threat to our survival.
SkepticSage 4 years ago
Then there is much more to genetics than just characteristics or dispositions but diffinitive knowledge.
lesleyann69 4 years ago
That is hypothetical not proven and besides what does this say about the afterlife. I am not following you??? Please help me to understand. Are you saying we are born with information in our heads telling us of God and the afterlife? What survival value would being born with lies like these in our heads have.
SkepticSage 4 years ago
Look at the australian Bower bird for maybe a clue to answer this question. The males build a bower but the nestlings are not exposed to one since the female builds a separate nest. Yet when the males mature they know how to build a bower in the manner of its kind.
lesleyann69 4 years ago
If they built a nest typical of their kind where did they aquire the information to build it, if they had never seen one.
If they built a nest like the ones they had been exposed to then we might say it was learnt. I will continue....
lesleyann69 4 years ago
Some say it learn it from its parent's, It was reared in the nest and was exposed to the design. Here is the theory. What if you were able to take some wren's egg and say place them in another nest which was disimliar to their own. If two wrens were brought together both reared in differnt nest's ( FINCH) what type of nest would they build for their young?
lesleyann69 4 years ago
The bird that builds a most unusual and elaborate nest is the Wren. It is round and enclosed and has a small hole in it to enter and exit. It has a definite design and all Wrens build this type of nest. Why can't it build another type of nest? Where did it learn its design? I will continue...
lesleyann69 4 years ago
extroadinary statements require extroadinary evidence. The real catch cry here. Ok.
Is it possible that when we come into this world we may have brought with us some knowlege or is it all learned here. I will explain my thought process here. Take for example birds.They build nests and some some very elaborate and specific for that kind of bird. How does the bird know it has to build that type of nest because it is that type of bird. I will continue...
lesleyann69 4 years ago
It seems to me that I am unable to share with you my personal experience but I know from that experience there is life after death and I am not afraid to die which gives me more energy to live. I value and enjoy my life more because I have ditched fear.
lesleyann69 4 years ago
Oh I see, so the belief in an afterlife reduces fear. I guess I am more concerned about truth than fear. Also, I apparently am able to be ok with the thought of no afterlife and eternal nothingness. Why this is so for me and not most Christians is a question I have been unable to answer. Maybe you have a theory.
SkepticSage 4 years ago
YEP I agree but what if you had another frame of reference. Say if you had a personal experience that proved that there indeed was life after death.
lesleyann69 4 years ago
What experience did you have? I cannot imagine such an experience. Any experience I have in this life is just that, in this life. How could it have any bearing on an afterlife. The only way I can think to know about death is to die. many have said they have had near death experiences, but that proves nothing since these experiences can be explained as the experience of a dying brain.
SkepticSage 4 years ago
Well in the book Man's search for happiness the belief in the concentration camp was simply I will live and continue to live in the hope that this situation will end. I will imagine a better place for those who adopted this belief, most survived.
Celebrate your life and value it for we can say it is a gift and a gift sometimes is meant to be shared. Someone once said that we are so afraid to die we have forgotten to live.
lesleyann69 4 years ago
Being afraid to die is due to how we think about death. When we are dead we feel nothing (including the fear of death) so there is nothing to be afraid of. When we are dying the pain is brief and thinking about it now will do nothing thus fear is unnecessary. Belief in an afterlife is not necessary to come to terms with death, though I realize it works well.
SkepticSage 4 years ago
Jesus according to the bible conquered death and this is how he converted his disciples, They did not have to exercise faith as such they knew that He was the real deal and all that he taught them had to be shared. So the message is simple whether you believe in God or not in this lifetime you will take that belief to the grave, but after that are you prepared for what follows?
lesleyann69 4 years ago
This is where we differ. I do not believe the bible is accurate, thus what it says about jesus carries little weight. None of us is prepared for an afterlife since it is impossible to know if such a thing exists, and if it does exist we have no idea of what it will be like and what we must do to deal with it.
SkepticSage 4 years ago
The gospel or the good news was simply. "That there is life after death." To those who may have lived in wretched times and circumstances the thought that there was something better beyond the grave gave rise to the popular saying "Death where is thy sting." All of the disciples of Christ willingly died for their beliefs or was it that they really knew that this life is only momentary." Christains disagree about whether we are saved by grace or good works.
lesleyann69 4 years ago
Questions: Are you saying it is good for people to believe in life after death? I wonder if people who are afraid of death and do not want to die, are they more likely to value there lives and the lives of others. Conversely, dose beleivng in a perfect afterlife make this life seem paltry in comparison, reducing its value? Do people who think they are living for an afterlife really work hard to get the most out of this life?
SkepticSage 4 years ago
My first thought about this question is to do with Christains. Hopefully all so called Christains believe in Jesus Christ who according to the Bible was the son of God. He also said he was here to do the will of his father. So what was the will of his father? And what is the Gospel all about?
lesleyann69 4 years ago
I would like to respond to your genuine desire to know if God really exists? Like pilgrim I composed my thoughts on the matter only to find out after about the limitation of character. Trying to down size it caused me to lose the whole thing. So I will do smaller portions.
lesleyann69 4 years ago
Answer part 5 - Sorry; I had to split up my answer because it only allows 500 characters per post. Please see part 1 below and read posts in reverse order. Thanks.
pilgrim6253378 4 years ago
Thank you so much for responding. You do not know how much I appreciate it. I have gotten so much hateful e-mail and little of it was intelligent like your own. I would love a response to my responses. After all, how will I ever come to understand how Christians think? I look forward to your responses. Thanks again.
SkepticSage 4 years ago
Answer part 4:
I know you are going hate the Christian God even more for this answer. Your response would be expected. I hate God also by nature. I don't want to believe in a God who would create a place call hell either. But, on the other hand, I see my own depravity and I must admit, I deserve God's wrath.
pilgrim6253378 4 years ago
I don't hate "God." How can I hate a fantasy that comes from people's minds. I see God as depraved because he is a character created by evil human beings. Ancient man was far more evil than most Europeans today. Our moral standards are so different form the ancients that the God they created also seems evil to many of us.
SkepticSage 4 years ago
The question then is: what good purpose does God have for allowing the existence of evil?
God allows evil to exist for two reasons:
1. that He may manifest His glory in the damnation of sinners to the praise of his glorious justice.
2. That He might manifest His mercy and grace in the salvation of sinners, to the praise of his glorious grace.
It is good for God to manifest His glory, therefore evil exists for a good reason, that His glory might be manifested.
pilgrim6253378 4 years ago
Manifesting his glory is not good, it is just egotistical. You make god sound like an ego-maniac. Damnation of sinners is itself evil, he could make people incapable of sin but choses to make them capable, apparently prone toward "sin." They sin because he has given them the capacity for choice and the tendency toward sin. He is allowing them to come to harm by setting them up to fail. Then uses cruel sadistic punishments after the fact. Quite evil indeed.
SkepticSage 4 years ago
Answer: Part 2
What one needs to ask is if there is a good reason to allow the existence of evil.
If I take your argument (or, at least my understanding of your argument, correct me if I misunderstood) and change premise 3, it turns the argument -
1. God (if He exists) is all-powerful
2. An all-powerful God allows evil to exist.
3. (Here is the changed premise) God allows evil to exist for a good purpose.
Therefore: God is good.
pilgrim6253378 4 years ago
There can be no good purpose to allow evil to exist. If god is all powerful, he can reach all purpose without the necessity of evil. Thus, he could always do what he needs to do without resorting to allowing evil.
SkepticSage 4 years ago
Answer part 1:
So your argument is something like this:
1. God (if He exists) is all-powerful
2. An all-powerful God allows evil to exist.
3. To allow evil to exist is evil.
Therefore: God is evil.
Did I understand you correctly?
If I did understand correctly, then problem with your argument is that you assume that the allowance (on the part of God) for the existence of evil is necessarily evil.
pilgrim6253378 4 years ago
If allowing evil to come to another is not evil than the word evil has no meaning. If I harm someone I am evil by the any definition of evil I have ever read. If I allow someone to come to harm it is just as evil, like I did it myself. i assume God is held to the same moral standards we are. if God does not hold himself to the same moral standards he is hypocritical.
SkepticSage 4 years ago
uhh yea your point is bad, it says in the bible that god wants us to make that choice!!!tolove him or not!! If god made us love him , why would he make us in the 1st place? NOW ANSWER THAT question ,im atheistbytheway
guyinamerica2008 4 years ago
By giving us the choice to choose badly (in ways that make us unhappy or put us in danger),god is similar to a neglectful irresponsible parent that lets their teenage kid use drugs because they believe it is best to give their children free will. Giving up free will (assuming it exists) would be a small price for eternal happiness. If God can do anything, he could have given us free will and happiness together. Christians must explain why their God has chosen not to do so.
SkepticSage 4 years ago
My previous comment raises an interesting problem. There are many approaches to getting theists to see that their thinking is wrong. Your profession may be useful in determining what approaches are most effective.
farvision 4 years ago
Unfortunately, cognitive restructuring USUALLY requires the trust, compliance, and willingness of the subject. However, there are methods used by negotiators in which you get someone to acknowledge a easy to accept fact before you explain its implications. When the implications are explained, the subject is forced to either accept a bigger fact or contradicting themselves.
SkepticSage 4 years ago
The theist's typical response is that God gave us free will, so we bring suffering on ourselves. It's a really lame response because "S/He" clearly makes all kinds of natural disasters and diseases that have nothing to do with free will. This is one of the questions that theists tend to go silent on, so bravo to you for bringing it up.
farvision 4 years ago
Thanks
outlawleather 4 years ago
Just a suggestion: you are too close to your mic and the sound is loud and distorted. Apart from that, videos are great.
NoGodsAloud 4 years ago