@guentherstoll this part can as well be used by pallywood, catchy title and lots of dead palestinians :) and by the way - your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries.
There should have been three movies, one like this, another for the Christians massacred by the Muslims, and of course one for all of the massacres committed against the Jews of Israel by the Muslims. I think making just this one provides a slanted view.
@shaiber Yes I know. Don't get me wrong, I love the Jewish people but Israel did a lot of things wrong during that war and stood by and watched while Christian Arabs slaughtered Palestinians. In the scene where he is firing flares over the city, he makes parallels between themselves and Nazis. Whether or not I believe this is unimportant however it is good to see Israelis critical of their own government's actions.
According to Robert Fisk in his book "The Great War for Civilisation: The Conquest of the Middle East", pp.484,488–489, Israeli defence minister at that time Ariel Sharon and Chief of Staff Rafael Eitan met with the Lebanese Phalangist militia units, inviting them to enter the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps and telling them the PLO fighters were responsible for the assassination of their leader Bashir Gemayel. This is the core information that was neglected/distorted in this movie.
@11strelokfan1000 it really is. and when watching the film and then after 90-odd minutes of animation see it become real footage makes it so astoundingly real.
@11strelokfan1000 Remember the sequence about the photographer and the horses? He photographs the war through the camera, which distances him from what he's shooting. But when it breaks, all of the emotion comes through and he can't help but break down. Its the same principle in action - the animation distances us, and in the end, it all comes rushing out of us...
Israel and Gemayel were right to get rid of PLO, but it was wrong killing innocent people, it was a reaction to the assassin of Gemayel and done by the christian phalangists by the way.
sabra and shatila is just one of many crimes comited by Arabs on other Arabs i believe more then 100,000 people we're killed in Lebanon alone the numbers of Muslims that we're killed by other Muslims in the last 62 years is 10,000,000-15,000,000 maybe it's time to stop blaming Israel?
I felt like the movie was like a dream. The cartoonish animation, colors and the dreams explained in the story put me in that mood. until I was struck by the ending, like having a nightmare and waking up and see reality is even worse.
the ending of this was so powerful, as someone else already stated using animation (at times whimsical, silly animation...) throughout the movie then capping it off with the harsh reality behind the entire film left me disturbed, sad, and speechless.
The info for the film: Director Ari Folman documents his quest to explore the memory gaps in his life during his service for the Israeli army in the Lebanese war of the early 1980s. Recounting several story vignettes based on recorded interviews with colleagues and friends, Folman explores the horrors of war and the curious coping mechanisms that mankind uses to survive and function under brutal circumstances.
Awful indeed - i was so struck by the last two minutes of this film, all of it animated until the very end when real footage was used. what an effect.
@Steenville TERRIBLE CRIME???!!!! WHERE WERE YOUR CAMERAS AND EMOTIONS WHEN THE LEBANESE CHRISTIANS WERE MUTILATED AND KILLED, THEIR VILLAGES BURNED, PRIESTS DRAGGED ALIVE BEHIND CARS, NUNS RAPED, CHURCHES DESACRATED AND THEN DEMOLISHED...EDUCATE YOURSELF,LOOK FOR ''DAMOUR'',''AYSHYEH'',''ZAHLE'',AND OVER 200 MORE YOU WILL START TO UNDERSTAND. THIS WAS A SMALL REVENGE...WE WILL DO MORE IF WE HAVE TOO.THIS IS LEBANON, IF U FEEL SO BAD ABOUT THEM,THEN TAKE ALL 500,000 TERRORISTS TO YOUR BACK YARD.
LebnenehASLEH; Justifying any massacre is wrong, no matter who gets killed. But you don´t seem to be a person I can convince of the positive sides to being more pacifistic..
Try losing your parents, cousins, relatives, friends, home, land, business, just because you are a CHRISITAN IN YOUR OWN COUNTRY by strangers to whom you gave refuge and opened your house and schools for. Then come talk to me about being pacifist.
That is exactly the wrong answer, Lebneneh. Further arguments from my side are useless. If the world continues down the slippery slope of violence and revenge that it has embarked on especially these latest years, you may get more violence and war than you bargained for- and I guess that will make you happy. Oh and by the way, I am a Christian. That does not mean that I only support Christians- I support all humans.
That is the problem. Moslems support Moslems and Christians support humanity... which of course means they r neutral. I hope EUROPE and THE WEST wake up before its too late. You dont know what u r up against. We know. We have been at war with them since 1500 years, and if we show any sign of weakness (to us its being Christian=peaceful) -like u suggest - means they will try to finish us. i suggest u read more about lebanon and the Christians in the Middle East.only then u will understand us.
You realize the people who committed that massacre were the Christian Militia right? Religion of peace my ass, all three major religions are violent, expansionist, and totally irreconcilable with each other.
@tattat44 so if a christian militia did that the whole religion is violent ? read the source of the religion you can judge a religion by it's followers as they follow it just by name copy and paste from a father into son just read the source of the three main religion and you judge which one is the peace religion !
All three religions contain different disturbing undertones of violence. People will do horrible things in the name of any god, who would not otherwise have done so. This by itself makes any other positive benefit that believing in such a myth would provide. Just because the poison is sweet, does not mean it isn't poison just the same.
@tattat44 People don't kill in the name of God so much as they kill for themselves. Religious militia is merely a perverted smokescreen used to confused and enlist the already confused and lost. The problem isn't religion, but the social ills that cause people to corrupt and use religion for personal gain. The majority of Christians, Muslims, and pious people in general do not condone violent acts and it is illogical to judge the merit of religion on any single aspect, be it violent or peaceful.
And I have seen firsthand those same supposedly pious and evenhanded Muslims turn around and hide a 105mm Howitzer shell inside a dead human being just so they can please Allah.
The world would be a much better place without religion.
And I have seen Muslims condemn and rebuke aggressive acts in the name of Allah and stand by their words even in the face of persecution. I have also seen people kill for political beliefs, for economic beliefs, racial beliefs, scientific beliefs, and just about any belief imaginable. As well as for art, for music, for freedom, for their rights, and for love, and just as many are willing to die for those too.
Would the world be a better place without any of these as well?
Does anyone truly believe that there is a big test tube in the sky that will punish them with an eternity under the Bunsen burner if they don't follow his holy lab safety guidelines?
No.
Without religion, millions of people could be empowered to make real change, rather than just praying and thinking it does anyone any good. Millions of people would still be alive and whole. Billions of people would be free from theocratic oppression.
Uh, I’m trying to make the point that the religious guise under which human cruelty operates is contradictory, detrimental, and a perversion of the original religious doctrine, not about whether or not God exists. And do you honestly think that decisions made by religious people have no merit, that religion leaves people feeling weak, trivial, and unable to make a change? How would you explain religious charities? Whan was the last time you fed the hungry or comforted the dying?
The last time I fed the hungry was six weeks ago, at a volunteer food kitchen. The last time I comforted a dying man was 1991, sitting on the back of a Bradley loading ramp, holding up Private First Class Terence Mathers by the armpits while the medics tried to scoop his insides back into him.
And yes, I do think that humans are perfectly capable of doing the right thing without an almighty parent staring down their neck, shouting threats of brimstone.
Good for you, for me it was last week for the 1st, and 6 months for the 2nd. And I know people can make the right decision without being religious, but they're just as capable of making the wrong one as well.
Look, the points you're making are repetitive and don't enhance your argument overall. You’re just turning this into a bitter tirade about your own feelings against God rather then an astute discussion over human-religion relations. So either throw-down or hush up child.
Alright then. You're right. Why don't you start by listing the positives of religion, and we'll judge whether they outstrip the millenniums of torture and mass murder.
Why, what's the point? You already conceded defeat when all I was looking for was a cohesive debate. I'd just be arguing with the straw man if I continued at this point. Peace out bro, Jesus loves you. :D
@tattat44 I will one of these days. I reread your posts, and although I mostly disagree with you philosophically, you do make some excellent points. I apologize for my curt nastiness.
@tattat44 You say that without religion there wouldn't be so much deaths and wars. There would be war, even without religions, think about political wars. Vietnam was more about politics, the Apartheid regime was about race, Soviet Union (political regime), the war in Iraq was mainly because of the oil I think. There will always be war.
Fact is that it wasn't religion who caused the war. It were these stupid people who hate eacht other so bad.
Yeah, and stupid people can't be trusted with something as addictive and harmful as religion.
Maybe if people were mature, we could allow superstition to take place for the sake of motivating charity, but the opium of the people has too many side effects.
@tattat44 Hey, leave religion alone. It inspires people, gives them hope. All major religions are ones of peace. It is the people who follow it, not the religion itself. If a football fan kills another, do you ban football and dismantle the clubs? What about international wars? After the Second World War, should we dismantled every country invovled and create a global anarchy?
It also has killed hundreds of millions of human beings.
To name just one example: The Black Plague, which killed a good chunk of the world's population and almost all of Europe.
Christians decided cats were a witches accessory and killed them all. Cat population plummets, rat population skyrockets, as does the flea population, which carries Bubonic Plauge.
And Voila, thanks to superstition technological progress is set back hundreds of years.
And that's just a trifling example. I could rattle off a dozen more off the top of my head.
If you cannot live without a root regressive cause for everything that amounts to nothing better than magic, I think that makes society as a whole weaker, not stronger.
Football clubs don't control public policy. What if every US senator, congressman, governor, and president ever belonged to the same football club? It would be called corruption and yes, it would be banned.
Warm animated stories are nice but they don't change a damn thing. Israel will pay for their crimes to the fullest.
rencrow 4 months ago
@rencrow this massacre was done by christian Lebanese soldiers - Bashir's followers.
NOT ISRAEL !
that's what the film is about. take a history class.
inbar2335 4 months ago 3
@inbar2335 Doesn't really matter. Israel still got a lot of crimes to pay for.
st1nee 1 month ago
Pallywood does anime :) FAIL :)
shooricus 4 months ago
@shooricus this is not pallywood you idiot... walz with bashir is an israeli movie...
guentherstoll 4 months ago
@guentherstoll this part can as well be used by pallywood, catchy title and lots of dead palestinians :) and by the way - your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries.
shooricus 4 months ago
Comment removed
guentherstoll 4 months ago
@shooricus at least my parents are not brother and sister... ;)
guentherstoll 4 months ago
There should have been three movies, one like this, another for the Christians massacred by the Muslims, and of course one for all of the massacres committed against the Jews of Israel by the Muslims. I think making just this one provides a slanted view.
Jonathanfroglegs11 5 months ago
This has to be the most effecting ending to a film I have ever experienced. It really made me question a lot of the ideas I had about Israel.
benjamininnit 6 months ago
@benjamininnit arbs are killing each other
israel was the viewer
shaiber 5 months ago
Comment removed
benjamininnit 5 months ago
@shaiber Yes I know. Don't get me wrong, I love the Jewish people but Israel did a lot of things wrong during that war and stood by and watched while Christian Arabs slaughtered Palestinians. In the scene where he is firing flares over the city, he makes parallels between themselves and Nazis. Whether or not I believe this is unimportant however it is good to see Israelis critical of their own government's actions.
benjamininnit 5 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
According to Robert Fisk in his book "The Great War for Civilisation: The Conquest of the Middle East", pp.484,488–489, Israeli defence minister at that time Ariel Sharon and Chief of Staff Rafael Eitan met with the Lebanese Phalangist militia units, inviting them to enter the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps and telling them the PLO fighters were responsible for the assassination of their leader Bashir Gemayel. This is the core information that was neglected/distorted in this movie.
Diala80 7 months ago
I've never seen such an effective contrast between the movie's beautiful animation and the horrific footage. A masterpiece is all I can say :D
11strelokfan1000 9 months ago 4
@11strelokfan1000 it really is. and when watching the film and then after 90-odd minutes of animation see it become real footage makes it so astoundingly real.
peacerebelgirl 9 months ago 2
@peacerebelgirl Quite difficult to imagine something like that as possible, until you see it.
11strelokfan1000 9 months ago
@peacerebelgirl Is it because it was real?
Xankara98 7 months ago
@11strelokfan1000 Remember the sequence about the photographer and the horses? He photographs the war through the camera, which distances him from what he's shooting. But when it breaks, all of the emotion comes through and he can't help but break down. Its the same principle in action - the animation distances us, and in the end, it all comes rushing out of us...
LookingPastSky 6 months ago
@LookingPastSky You've put it out perfectly!
11strelokfan1000 6 months ago
You should not forget all the same that Christian Lebanese were also massacred by Moslem militias to Damour and Jieh.
And what the girl of Bashir, Maya, was herself assasined
51Totom 1 year ago 3
@51Totom Yes! You never hear that side of the story, do you?
Mangoyle 10 months ago
Israel and Gemayel were right to get rid of PLO, but it was wrong killing innocent people, it was a reaction to the assassin of Gemayel and done by the christian phalangists by the way.
2912770 1 year ago 3
sabra and shatila is just one of many crimes comited by Arabs on other Arabs i believe more then 100,000 people we're killed in Lebanon alone the numbers of Muslims that we're killed by other Muslims in the last 62 years is 10,000,000-15,000,000 maybe it's time to stop blaming Israel?
yairbe5 1 year ago
Israel is one fucked up country.
AAV47 1 year ago
they sure learned alot from the nazis
10bigpimpin01 1 year ago
what is the difference between jews christians or muslims now?.......
shikharsrivastava7 1 year ago
@shikharsrivastava7 six in one half a dozen, they're all crap
mongoosae 1 year ago
fuck war the human kind !!!!
MrPROit 1 year ago
boils my blood
eurodance07 1 year ago
violence causes more violence
CeLtIcCrAcKa 1 year ago
war is a crime...
Dellfuze 2 years ago
I felt like the movie was like a dream. The cartoonish animation, colors and the dreams explained in the story put me in that mood. until I was struck by the ending, like having a nightmare and waking up and see reality is even worse.
stivante 2 years ago 2
I always get haunted by this ending... REALLY SAD!!!!
This movie will have a huge place in my heart, not only of the animation and the story plat, but the impact the ending had on me...
williammoseleyfan101 2 years ago 2
Very powerful ending. I always get goose bumps after seeing it.
Gnga87 2 years ago 2
the ending of this was so powerful, as someone else already stated using animation (at times whimsical, silly animation...) throughout the movie then capping it off with the harsh reality behind the entire film left me disturbed, sad, and speechless.
CPUT99 2 years ago 12
Comment removed
Nis8Nis 2 years ago
The info for the film: Director Ari Folman documents his quest to explore the memory gaps in his life during his service for the Israeli army in the Lebanese war of the early 1980s. Recounting several story vignettes based on recorded interviews with colleagues and friends, Folman explores the horrors of war and the curious coping mechanisms that mankind uses to survive and function under brutal circumstances.
peacerebelgirl 2 years ago
Comment removed
Nis8Nis 2 years ago
Horrible pictures- and there is no doubt we could see more of this in the future. I remember the Sabra/Chatila massacre very well, a terrible crime.
Steenville 2 years ago 8
Awful indeed - i was so struck by the last two minutes of this film, all of it animated until the very end when real footage was used. what an effect.
peacerebelgirl 2 years ago
@Steenville TERRIBLE CRIME???!!!! WHERE WERE YOUR CAMERAS AND EMOTIONS WHEN THE LEBANESE CHRISTIANS WERE MUTILATED AND KILLED, THEIR VILLAGES BURNED, PRIESTS DRAGGED ALIVE BEHIND CARS, NUNS RAPED, CHURCHES DESACRATED AND THEN DEMOLISHED...EDUCATE YOURSELF,LOOK FOR ''DAMOUR'',''AYSHYEH'',''ZAHLE'',AND OVER 200 MORE YOU WILL START TO UNDERSTAND. THIS WAS A SMALL REVENGE...WE WILL DO MORE IF WE HAVE TOO.THIS IS LEBANON, IF U FEEL SO BAD ABOUT THEM,THEN TAKE ALL 500,000 TERRORISTS TO YOUR BACK YARD.
LebnenehASLEH 2 years ago
LebnenehASLEH; Justifying any massacre is wrong, no matter who gets killed. But you don´t seem to be a person I can convince of the positive sides to being more pacifistic..
Steenville 2 years ago
Try losing your parents, cousins, relatives, friends, home, land, business, just because you are a CHRISITAN IN YOUR OWN COUNTRY by strangers to whom you gave refuge and opened your house and schools for. Then come talk to me about being pacifist.
LebnenehASLEH 2 years ago 4
That is exactly the wrong answer, Lebneneh. Further arguments from my side are useless. If the world continues down the slippery slope of violence and revenge that it has embarked on especially these latest years, you may get more violence and war than you bargained for- and I guess that will make you happy. Oh and by the way, I am a Christian. That does not mean that I only support Christians- I support all humans.
Steenville 2 years ago
That is the problem. Moslems support Moslems and Christians support humanity... which of course means they r neutral. I hope EUROPE and THE WEST wake up before its too late. You dont know what u r up against. We know. We have been at war with them since 1500 years, and if we show any sign of weakness (to us its being Christian=peaceful) -like u suggest - means they will try to finish us. i suggest u read more about lebanon and the Christians in the Middle East.only then u will understand us.
LebnenehASLEH 2 years ago
@LebnenehASLEH
You realize the people who committed that massacre were the Christian Militia right? Religion of peace my ass, all three major religions are violent, expansionist, and totally irreconcilable with each other.
tattat44 1 year ago
@tattat44 so if a christian militia did that the whole religion is violent ? read the source of the religion you can judge a religion by it's followers as they follow it just by name copy and paste from a father into son just read the source of the three main religion and you judge which one is the peace religion !
PEACE!
MrPROit 1 year ago
@MrPROit
All three religions contain different disturbing undertones of violence. People will do horrible things in the name of any god, who would not otherwise have done so. This by itself makes any other positive benefit that believing in such a myth would provide. Just because the poison is sweet, does not mean it isn't poison just the same.
tattat44 1 year ago
@tattat44 People don't kill in the name of God so much as they kill for themselves. Religious militia is merely a perverted smokescreen used to confused and enlist the already confused and lost. The problem isn't religion, but the social ills that cause people to corrupt and use religion for personal gain. The majority of Christians, Muslims, and pious people in general do not condone violent acts and it is illogical to judge the merit of religion on any single aspect, be it violent or peaceful.
bloodywing 1 year ago
@bloodywing
And I have seen firsthand those same supposedly pious and evenhanded Muslims turn around and hide a 105mm Howitzer shell inside a dead human being just so they can please Allah.
The world would be a much better place without religion.
tattat44 1 year ago
@tattat44
And I have seen Muslims condemn and rebuke aggressive acts in the name of Allah and stand by their words even in the face of persecution. I have also seen people kill for political beliefs, for economic beliefs, racial beliefs, scientific beliefs, and just about any belief imaginable. As well as for art, for music, for freedom, for their rights, and for love, and just as many are willing to die for those too.
Would the world be a better place without any of these as well?
bloodywing 1 year ago
@bloodywing
Does anyone truly believe that there is a big test tube in the sky that will punish them with an eternity under the Bunsen burner if they don't follow his holy lab safety guidelines?
No.
Without religion, millions of people could be empowered to make real change, rather than just praying and thinking it does anyone any good. Millions of people would still be alive and whole. Billions of people would be free from theocratic oppression.
There is no comparison.
tattat44 1 year ago
@tattat44
Uh, I’m trying to make the point that the religious guise under which human cruelty operates is contradictory, detrimental, and a perversion of the original religious doctrine, not about whether or not God exists. And do you honestly think that decisions made by religious people have no merit, that religion leaves people feeling weak, trivial, and unable to make a change? How would you explain religious charities? Whan was the last time you fed the hungry or comforted the dying?
bloodywing 1 year ago
@bloodywing
The last time I fed the hungry was six weeks ago, at a volunteer food kitchen. The last time I comforted a dying man was 1991, sitting on the back of a Bradley loading ramp, holding up Private First Class Terence Mathers by the armpits while the medics tried to scoop his insides back into him.
And yes, I do think that humans are perfectly capable of doing the right thing without an almighty parent staring down their neck, shouting threats of brimstone.
tattat44 1 year ago
@tattat44
Good for you, for me it was last week for the 1st, and 6 months for the 2nd. And I know people can make the right decision without being religious, but they're just as capable of making the wrong one as well.
Look, the points you're making are repetitive and don't enhance your argument overall. You’re just turning this into a bitter tirade about your own feelings against God rather then an astute discussion over human-religion relations. So either throw-down or hush up child.
bloodywing 1 year ago
@bloodywing
Alright then. You're right. Why don't you start by listing the positives of religion, and we'll judge whether they outstrip the millenniums of torture and mass murder.
tattat44 1 year ago
@tattat44
Why, what's the point? You already conceded defeat when all I was looking for was a cohesive debate. I'd just be arguing with the straw man if I continued at this point. Peace out bro, Jesus loves you. :D
bloodywing 1 year ago
@bloodywing
Not what I'm saying, but I get your drift. Have fun rationalizing.
tattat44 1 year ago
@tattat44
I always do!^^
bloodywing 1 year ago
@tattat44 Get older, Bro.
mozo73 4 months ago
@mozo73
Outgrow Ad Homenim Bro.
tattat44 4 months ago
@tattat44 I will one of these days. I reread your posts, and although I mostly disagree with you philosophically, you do make some excellent points. I apologize for my curt nastiness.
mozo73 4 months ago
@mozo73
Holy shit. Civility. On the internet.
STOP THE PRESSES! BREAKING STORY!
tattat44 4 months ago
@tattat44 You say that without religion there wouldn't be so much deaths and wars. There would be war, even without religions, think about political wars. Vietnam was more about politics, the Apartheid regime was about race, Soviet Union (political regime), the war in Iraq was mainly because of the oil I think. There will always be war.
Fact is that it wasn't religion who caused the war. It were these stupid people who hate eacht other so bad.
TheYvdW 1 year ago
@TheYvdW
Yeah, and stupid people can't be trusted with something as addictive and harmful as religion.
Maybe if people were mature, we could allow superstition to take place for the sake of motivating charity, but the opium of the people has too many side effects.
tattat44 1 year ago
@tattat44 Hey, leave religion alone. It inspires people, gives them hope. All major religions are ones of peace. It is the people who follow it, not the religion itself. If a football fan kills another, do you ban football and dismantle the clubs? What about international wars? After the Second World War, should we dismantled every country invovled and create a global anarchy?
Mangoyle 10 months ago
@Mangoyle
It also has killed hundreds of millions of human beings.
To name just one example: The Black Plague, which killed a good chunk of the world's population and almost all of Europe.
Christians decided cats were a witches accessory and killed them all. Cat population plummets, rat population skyrockets, as does the flea population, which carries Bubonic Plauge.
And Voila, thanks to superstition technological progress is set back hundreds of years.
tattat44 10 months ago
@Mangoyle
And that's just a trifling example. I could rattle off a dozen more off the top of my head.
If you cannot live without a root regressive cause for everything that amounts to nothing better than magic, I think that makes society as a whole weaker, not stronger.
Football clubs don't control public policy. What if every US senator, congressman, governor, and president ever belonged to the same football club? It would be called corruption and yes, it would be banned.
tattat44 10 months ago
@LebnenehASLEH Agreed Europe really need to wake up
MrPROit 1 year ago
@LebnenehASLEH yesss
MrPROit 1 year ago