Animation: Trade Justice - why world trade rules need to change

[RockshopRoadie]

Crocodile Hunter?

[LucisFerre1]

You can have 300 employees importing and distributing $5 hats, or 300 employees manufacturing $15 hats. If Bob has $15, then if he buys the $15 hat, he has a hat while 300 domestic are employed. If he buys the $5 hat, he has a hat plus $10, and still 300 domestic workers are employed. Trade makes a nation RICHER. Bob can then spend $10 at the butcher's, bakers, and candlestick makers, creating LOCAL jobs.

TRADE CREATES WEALTH.

[louiethegreater]

@LucisF1 Your example is flawed, insomuch as you fail to consider that those $5.00 hats was at the cost of domestic hat makers. Unemployed domestic hat makers cannot buy hats regardless of the cheaper price. Given that scenario across the entire consumer products market of a country, only means gross unemployment. Much like the events in the US since Clinton negotiated the GATT Treaty in 94, that gave Fortune 500 Companies permission to manufacture offshore and ship back to U.S free of charge.

[LucisFerre1]

@louiethegreater said, [["Your example is flawed, insomuch as you fail to consider that those $5.00 hats was at the cost of domestic hat makers. Unemployed domestic hat makers cannot buy hats regardless of the cheaper price"]]

Sorry, Luddite Fallacy. You're assuming that greater productivity will resort in lower employment instead of steady employment allowing for productivity to go through the roof. You're not helping anyone by RESTRICTING markets and forcing consumers to buy more expensive.

[louiethegreater]

@LucisFer Yes, I am too. I am allowing for full employment, without need for social benefits for able bodied people.

I base my example on goods produced by cheap labor, not greater productivity. Actually no Western or African nation can compete with 4 billion Asians who will work for pennies a day. That is not a Luddite Fallacy my friend that is just plain common sense. Markets inside nationstates are better served when the citizens are not placed in direct competition with 3 billion peasants.

[louiethegreater]

 Forcing Africa to open her markets to the cheap Chinese made t-shirts we in the West are forced to consume is not in the interest of Africa. That activity is a globalist propaganda tactic. The only nation prospering is China, because they are willing to expose their controlled workforce to untold hazards, completely poison their, air, rivers and streams. While converting their subsistence farmers to subsistence factory laborers, while multinationals, and well connected Chinese prospers.

[louiethegreater]

@LucisFerre1 No- Luddite Fallacy here my friend, just plain common sense. I am talking about placing workers in the rest of the world in direct competition with 4 billion Asian workers is never going to work. When all consumer goods, is produced offshore using .50/hr labor and exported into struggling nation states who will never develop any industry without protecting their markets. All great economies were developed through the process of protectionism. With the exception of HK and Singapore.

[LucisFerre1]

@louiethegreater said, [["Your example is flawed, insomuch as you fail to consider that those $5.00 hats was at the cost of domestic hat makers. Unemployed domestic hat makers cannot buy hats regardless of the cheaper price"]]

In other words, using a backhoe put men with shovels out of business, and unemployed shovel using ditch diggers cannot buy hats. Luddite Fallacy. The men with shovels just need to find something productive to do with their time while the backhoe does it's thing.

[louiethegreater]

@LucisFerre1 Your backhoe analogy is focuses on the automation of the shovel. What has that to do with stripping a country of the domestic manufacturing. Outsourcing labor intense, value added operations to cheap Asian labor markets is not advantageous to anyone but the country that performs the operations. In China's case the top 10% prospers while the masses strive in their daily lives. Nothing the matter with $5.00 hats as long as they are sold in the economy they were produced in.

[LucisFerre1]

@louiethegreater said, [["Outsourcing labor intense, value added operations to cheap Asian labor markets is not advantageous to anyone but the country that performs the operations. In China's case the top 10% prospers while the masses strive in their daily lives."]]

False. We can maintain the same number of employees while their cheap goods allow OUR consumers to have money to spend other places in the US, creating even more jobs, and the more affordable hats increase our standard of living.

[louiethegreater]

@LucisFerre1 You are saying that if all light bulb manufacturing went to Asia, and the--- say--100,000 workers the industry supported in the US, that somehow that action would somehow magically create 100,000 + jobs in the U.S.That is truly voodoo economics. If one applies that strategy to industry after industry, than it is self evident that the U.S. will not survive the plight of free trade. The Ameican middle class has been destroyed by the very economic theory you believe.

[LucisFerre1]

@louiethegreater Are you saying that we should outlaw the use of backhoes so that 100,000 shovel using ditch diggers won't have to find something more productive to do with their time? Because that seems to be what you're arguing for. 

[louiethegreater]

@LucisFerre1 Hey you seem to be hung up on the backhoe. Whats the problem?

[LucisFerre1]

@louiethegreater said, [["Outsourcing labor intense, value added operations to cheap Asian labor markets is not advantageous to anyone but the country that performs the operations. In China's case the top 10% prospers while the masses strive in their daily lives."]]

What do you think the rich do with their money, stuff it in logs? They put it in the bank, which increases the money supply and "loosens" up the credit market. They invest it in corps, creating jobs. They spend it, creating jobs.

[louiethegreater]

@LucisFerre1 So you are saying that it is the responsibility of the poor, and middle class to keep the rich, heavy with capital, so they can provide jobs for Asian subsistence factory workers. You are correct, those with capital in the U.S. is creating jobs in Asia, while destroying the economy of their own country. Tell me are you rich or just a cheer leader for the rich. Are you aware that 85% of the newly created wealth in the US went to the top 1%. Is that what you are cheer leader for?

[LucisFerre1]

@louiethegreater How much wealth did the top 1% create?

[louiethegreater]

@LucisFerre1 I don't know, none for American workers. Using the U.S. for retail only, supports Wall Street, and government by Goldman Sachs. The top 1%s income has went up 270% since 1970. The working class has flat lined.

[LucisFerre1]

Since when does cheap goods and services not translate into an increased standard of living? Would their poor be better off with more expensive local goods and services? Since when does a poor nation not have cheap labor to put to work? If the West is so evil and exploitative, why aren't they (we) "shipping jobs overseas" to these poorer countries? (Spoilers: we do). If a nation isn't making a profit in each trade, import OR export, then why are they trading? Protectionism COSTS jobs and lives.

[LucisFerre1]

@LucisFerre1

PS, I see now from other posts that people have caught on that this vid is chok-full of false information. Notice the tags for the vid are "Non-profits and activism". That translates into "biased agenda motivating the making of the vid."

For the fellows actually looking up the true numbers, good work myth busting.

[louiethegreater]

@LucisFerre1 My guess is that the fellows actually feel the effect of the numbers.

[picetureittwice]

cool what program did you use to make the video???

[LucisFerre1]

@picetureittwice ,Yes, what program was used to make this (largely misleading) video? It appears to be some sort of flash, and I've asked serveral vid makers this question lately and can't get anyone to answer.

Peace

[picetureittwice]

@LucisFerre1, thank you for your answer! It is very nicely done, though it is not exactly accurate.. thanks for your help!

[Sigolet]

Perhaps if New Zealand did not have such restrictive immigration policies, which discriminate against peoples for the countries that you claim to want to help, then they could find employment and opportunities and help, through remittances, their home countries.

[1000101er]

Cool video, but seems factually flawed.

(0:56) Kenyan Real GDP has actually grown at an accelerated pace since they joined the WTO in 1995.

(1:05) According to the U.N. youth literacy rates in Kenya are 20% higher now than they were in 1980.

(1:30) So China, India, Japan, and South Korea combined account for less than 1% of world trade...

(1:54) WTO encourages all members to lower trade barriers, rich members like U.S. have low tarrifs.

Fair trade means rich nations cutting subsidies.

[danmcdonald22]

@1000101er Facts aren't important when trying to push an agenda, didn't you know?

[Inci7atus]

The wikipedia article on the economy of Kenya is quite different from the story presented here. Do you have any references for this version, or is it some kind of fiction used to promote a good thing?

[JVIonsterr]

@Inci7atus Wikipedia isn't reliable, anybody can edit a wikipedia article and fill it with false information,

[Inci7atus]

@JVIonsterr True, but the reliability of wikipedia is around the same as that of any encyclopedia. I'm inclined to think that this video is the source with false information. Fortunately we are all free to actually check the facts.

[octothorn]

@JVIonsterr Sure, but you try it and see how fast it gets reverted.

[sgsfdgfsdfsdfsddf]

yup take money from the richer countries give it to the poverty stricken countries worldwide economic collapse

So they needed aid and that hurt them? they wanted something they needed to do something? holes

[louiethegreater]

Why don't Kenya just drop out of the WTO. She could re-impose tariffs, to protect her industries.

We here in the west will have to impose tariffs, on third world goods if we are to survive.

[TheAngloman]

@louiethegreater

If they drop out the will be destroyed by economic sanctions and other device that would be worse

[louiethegreater]

@TheAngloman, I disagree with you they do not have to participate in global trade at all. Add tariffs, on selective imports, protect demestic industries, begin massive educational projects. Domestic industries can supply the non basic needs of the country. Kick the IMF and World Bank out of their country, nationalize their resources.

[LucisFerre1]

@louiethegreater said, [[" Add tariffs, on selective imports, protect demestic industries, begin massive educational projects. Domestic industries can supply the non basic needs of the country."]]

Reducing the customer's freedom to choose, and only offering them monopolistic higher priced locally made items will not increase their standard of living. Local made higher priced items will have a smaller market, which isn't going to give you more jobs, rather less.

[louiethegreater]

@LucisF You comment is absurd, thriving domestic industries, produce their own competition. The offset between importing consumer goods and thriving domestic industries is a no brainer. Providing conditions for domestic Industries to flourish and employ the citizens of a nationstate is the responsibility of Government. Serving as consumer markets for multinational corporations is not! Consumer goods can always be produced cheaper in large populations, like China, but not at the cost of domestic

[LucisFerre1]

@louiethegreater, buying goods and services for a price cheaper than you can make them yourself means greater productivity and greater wealth. We have the same items and less cash expenditures, and locals can concern themselves with more doing something more productive than making items that are three times more expensive and that will have a smaller market because of it.

[louiethegreater]

@LucisFerre1 Buying imported consumer goods, produced in some Asian country for pennies on the hour, means unemployment for nationstates that are forced to consume those products. It is a fallacy to believe domestic industries will develop more sophisticated product lines for export, or consumption for that matter. When all Radios, TV. Optics, Autos, plastics, glass, steel, machine tools, hand tools, power tools, appliances, kitchen gadgets are made in Asia what is left for domestic workers.

[LucisFerre1]

@louiethegreater said, [[" Buying imported consumer goods, produced in some Asian country for pennies on the hour, means unemployment for nationstates that are forced to consume those products. It is a fallacy to believe domestic industries will develop more sophisticated product lines for export..."]]

In other words, it's unreasonable to expect people to really need and pay for all those ditches dug with backhoes and it will stifle innovation.

NOT

[louiethegreater]

@LucisFerre1 You continue to refer to the backhoe, it has nothing to do with producing in one economy and selling in another.

[LucisFerre1]

@louiethegreater said, [["You comment is absurd, thriving domestic industries, produce their own competition. The offset between..."]]

Instead of just asserting contrary statements, why don't you show me where my "hat" example is false.

[louiethegreater]

@LucisFerre1 Here is the short answer for your hat example. IF YOU MAKE IT IN CHINA, SELL IT IN CHINA.

[zeenab11]

thats awesome :D

[kellann55]

well...looks like it turned out to bite us in the ass! You can apply Kenya's woes to our own here in the US.

Hooray for 'state socialism for the rich, capitalism for everyone else!'

search, Noam Chomsky!

[CrookdRiverWmn]

Well done. My only question is what role has Kenya's problems with corruption played in all this? Every African I've ever worked with points to the internal problems of their countries, particularly corruption and greed. They acknowledge outside factors, but they are clear about what holds their countries back from within as well.

[tradeaid]

Corruption increases with poverty and decreases as wages go up. In other words, corruption does not lead to poverty it is the other way round. It then makes it that much harder to break the out of poverty...

[WhiteLionV1]

@tradeaid plus the discourse of the third world is littered with assumptions of internal blame, corruption, lack of development, inefficiency, primitive practices. all the remnants of the colonial age which hasn't really ended.

[Duggur]

@WhiteLionV1 Development in itself and it's connotations are all within a developmental discourse which leads back to the northern - southern (etc.) divide. So basically, by focusing on "aiding", giving "them" a chance (to be like us), we maintain an imperialist approach to a problem WE created. Some decades ago, there weren't any development countries. It took a few decades for 2 billion people to perceive themselves undeveloped. As long as we treat them as "noble savages" they act accordingly.

[thenextpiece]

@tradeaid it's a cycle. does corruption come first or poverty come first? It's like asking whether the chicken comes first or the egg comes first.

i think CrookdRiverWmn has a point too.

[TheRyanQ]

@thenextpiece the egg came first , a dinosaur layed an egg and it was a chicken

[octothorn]

@TheRyanQ

But it was a dinosaur egg, because it came out of a dinosaur. Chicken eggs don't come out of dinosaurs.

Since the chicken came out of a dinosour egg, the chicken came first.

[PovertyMe]

@tradeaid Actually... poverty IS due to corruption. I am a Filipino, and as a person who has lived through Poverty, my experience confirms that the corruption within internal problems (Government) affects the rest of the domino's standing up. With our corrupt Government--who is greedy and selfish--our country, who in the past used to be fine and 'rich, became a poverty-stricken nation. So, because of our selfish, greedy, and corrupt Government (i.e. internal problems) our country is now vulgar.

[KrugmanTheKing]

@PovertyMe

Because of course, the extended experience of a single person who presents his ideas using connotation as much outdoes statistics now? Provide empirical support and then begin to speak. Meanwhile, your voice only echoes anger, but not truth.

[LucisFerre1]

@PovertyMe, exactly true. corruptions eats away trade advantage (not just foreign trade but domestic trade too), and removes the incentive to trade WITHOUT corruption. Then the system is out of wack, bleeding to death from a thousand cuts.

[ratatabatata]

@tradeaid Great response

[angela10336]

Awesome fair trade video!!

[siziam]

So true so true.

[javaidiqbaal]

The poverty in developing countries is still a question for WTO???

[RamandoDMag]

Great vid. Free trade....so devastating...