A Message about Amendment 10-A to the Constitution of the PC(USA)

[TimCTrewyn]

87 out of 173 Presbyteries is 50.3%. In my Presbytery, an 80% majority and tribute is required to obtain dismissal from the PCUSA and transfer to another Reformed denomination. Is that justice? This is a political disaster. Terminating the Trusteeship of the GA over local church property would be a good way to "reach out". It would take some steam out of the exodus. I sense that is not part of the plan. The sale of closed Church property will provide revenue for quite some time.

[LairdEricW]

She and her type are disrespectful of traditional Reformed theology and history.So,I'll take your unsolicited statement as a compliment.

Thank You and God Bless

[mattsplace85]

@LairdEricW

How Rude!!! How disrespectful!!

[SirWinstoneChurchill]

The idea "thou shalt marry and be given in marriage" is corrupt and degenerate, which is an impossible immortality of a kind (i.e. "eternal love"), but not of the persons of men.

Ecclesiastics would have men believe they will receive condign punishment and are not worthy to be counted amongst them that shall obtain the next world for their contumacy of monogamy, as opposed to the freedom of the polygamy found in nature, which is inherently pagan.

Mammalian evolution is heterosexual....

[SirWinstoneChurchill]

t should be no mystery as to why we have so many 'sex scandal' theaters in politics... It is an ecclesiastic creation designed purposely to usurp the rightful place of pagan monarchs and their aristocratic peerage.

Unfortunately, having bought into the conformity of such hypocritical facades, we have allowed the anti-evolutionists to redefine the nature of the human animal...

Monogamy is a hackneyed tenet of religion... it is all about control... religious phaggots are insane...

[mapuanak]

A very sad day when a denomination says that its ordained leaders no longer need to be obedient to Scripture and can engage in adultery, fornication and other sexual sins.

[bibchr]

PCUSA jumped the shark when it defrocked the great J. Gresham Machen, and never looked back. This is just a natural progression.

[Annette0660]

Havng attended the tri-presbytery meeting in Oklahoma where Ms Bolback spoke, I will have to reconsider my role in the PCUSA. It saddens me to see how far we have fallen in the eyes of the Lord. How much more will we be forced to accept as normal instead of sin? We can love the sinner, including ourselves, but we do not have to accept their sins as being okay. Ultimately there is right and wrong whether we like it or not. Those that think otherwise are pervasive.

[CAndiron]

What a perverted, vile idiot. It is good that the PCUSA will implode after this. Once it is gone, it will no longer be able to lie to people and encourage them in their self destructive behaviors. PCUSA now joins the Episcopal Church and ELCA in its gleeful dive over the cliff for the sake of homosexual activism. Is this sad, sorry lesbian aware of all the contradictions and inconsistencies in her 3 minute speech?

[190xtdiesel]

well i can tell you right now that persons in a same-sex relationship are not suitable for ordination. the Bible is very clear on this as is the Confessions. i wont respect or adhere to this new rule. i will fight it as long as i am in the denomination, which probably wont be long now. you have totally sold out the Gospel by allowing this to happen. the Bible says in the latter days they will gather around themselves those who will preach what their itching ears want to hear. pcusa is done.

[samnmman]

@190xtdiesel It's sounds like you do truly understand the love, compassion and tolerance of Christ Jesus...NOT!

[190xtdiesel]

@samnmman i agree with wsgac below this comment. i do understand the love, compassion and tolerance of Christ. Christ welcomed everyone but he called them to repentance. you can not let sin abound in the church. if people are not warned about the wrong they do and they go to hell, what kind of love is that. as a leader in the church i am bound to be faithful to my duty. James says "the leaders will be judged more harshly", so i must call sin, sin when i see it to warn people so they dont perish

[Luke5361]

@190xtdiesel Well said.

[190xtdiesel]

@Luke5361 thank you luke5361

[samnmman]

@190xtdiesel I guess it's a matter of interpretation and we'll just have to agree to disagree. The church reforms as does the world. To be stuck in and archaic mindset is not a place I think Jesus would agree to. Those holding on so dearly to fearful and hateful intolerance are akin to the Pharisees and Sadducees of the 1st century. New Testament Churches and believers should stop delving into the Old Testament, cherry picking scripture out of context.

[190xtdiesel]

@samnmman the New Testament also speaks on homosexuality. Romans, I Corinthians, Jude and Revelation. Jesus said in Revelation 22:15 " Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. And besides if we ordain homosexuals, then we have to ordain those who commit incest and those who practice child sacrifices because those are also in the OT along with homosexuality. Are you ready to do that.

[samnmman]

@190xtdiesel Reformed churches like the PC(USA) value the Old Testament history and richness of literature and believe in the saving grace of Christ by believing, not any works. The Church is the body of Christ, serving the people of today who believe. You appear to be labeling sin yet God is the only true judge.

[190xtdiesel]

@samnmman I am not judging or labeling, i am just pointing out what is sin according to the Scriptures. I absolutely believe in the saving grace of God. But i also have to point out sin and identify it when it is brought into the church. God saved by grace in the OT and he saves by grace in the NT. But there are certain things we are and are not to do.If you continue to do something that God has called a sin and deny it you are in a very dangerous place.

[Luke5361]

PC (USA) long ago joined the ranks of the Mainline churches getting crushed under the weight of their own apostasy. This ridiculous but expected move will only accelerate their decline.

We are all sinners, and homosexuals are just as in need of Christ's saving grace as the rest of us, and it is the duty of the church to minister to them. But we mustn't cave to political correctness to delete sins from the book.  Drifting from Biblical Christianity kills churches. Period.

[samnmman]

@Luke5361 You speculate but the love of Christ Jesus will prevail.

[Luke5361]

@samnmman How can you sit there and confidently declare that? Every single mainline church is in the midst of collapse, and the PC (USA) is leading the charge. It's gone from 3.7 million members in 1990 to about 2.2 in 2010. The churches leaving as a result of this decision will likely knock it under 2.

I don't wish ill on the PCUSA or any other church, but facts are facts. Liberal churches are dying, churches that hold to the Bible for guidance thrive.

[samnmman]

@Luke5361 I believe that nothing is impossible for GOD. The hateful and fear-mongering houses of worship are coloring all believers as FUGLY. It is that which is the reason for a secular uprising. Those who hold fast to their xenophobic issues are flocking to the churches that preach the false prophesy. Now that churches are progressing to be more loving, tolerant, and open to all people, the tide will turn.

[Luke5361]

@samnmman I'm surprised to learn that Christianity has always been following a "false prophecy" for the last 2000 years, and that we've only finally figured it out in the last 20. It is your side that is pushing the apostate beliefs based on politics and personal feelings, not the authoritative Word of God. You haven't got a shred of Biblical ground to stand on here. God will not intervene to save your church because what your church is doing is not in keeping with His Word.

[samnmman]

@Luke5361 GOD has certainly given you the gift and the curse of FREEWILL...You can choose to stagnate and die , if you'd like. Peace and blessings to you and yours!

[Luke5361]

@samnmman This literally marks the first time a liberal/mainline Christian has actually inferred that I should be the one to worry about my church stagnating and dying. The opposite trend is true and has been accelerating since the 90s. Again, do you have any evidence to offer supporting your theory that not only is homosexuality Biblically-approved behavior, but that God will reward the churches who take that view with growth?

[Dzsari]

First eliminate the sins of the church, only after that come up with unbiblical rules!

[jaeysung]

Maranatha!

[October31st1517]

OUtragous. John Calvin is spinning in his grave.

[demarie007]

@WSGAC You apparently have a log in your eye. As such I will pray that God will open your heart and mind to hear God speaking truth in the testimony of your LGBT brothers and sisters. Until such time I refuse to engage in a conversation with someone so full of hate that he or she damns me without any basis in personal knowledge and in direct contravention of Jesus' commands. Therefore I will pray for the spirit of the Christ who said, "forgive them for they know not what they do."

[WSGAC]

@demarie007, I see! Anyone who points out sin, as well as faulty logic, is hateful. How convenient for your case. Never mind addressing my points, just call me hateful and feel self satisfied. Of course you really only remain in your ignorance and sin. This is what Paul was addressing when he speaks of folks exchanging truth for a lie, and believing the lie. God then gives them over to a depraved mind...one which accuses others of hate, just to hold on to their depravity. Alas!

[samnmman]

@WSGAC I also can certainly see your reaction as hate and not at all Christian-like. Paul interpreted in his way, anti-marriage, misogynistic and homophobic. There is not a single place where Christ mentions homosexuality or his hatred of any people. How dare you prophesize so falsely! Are you also against women serving or those who are married?

[WSGAC]

@samnmman , There is not a single place where Christ mentions incest either. Nor can you find any instance where Christ mentions beastiality or pedophilia. I guess we are to conclude that since Christ was silent on these matters, it's no big deal. Isn't it wonderful what you can do with arguments from silence?

[samnmman]

@WSGAC Yes...I guess that also quite true of your circular logic. The bottom line it that hate, fear and xenophobia of all kinds is not walking the path of Christ or being a good disciple in this world.

[WSGAC]

@samnmman - LOL, circular logic? Do you even know what you're accusing me of? Xenophobic? This is a fear of foreigners. How am I xenophobic? Whether you're an American homosexual or a Tunisian homosexual, you're still engaging in sin. The "phobia" mantra is getting old, and does not apply. But since you accuse me of phobia, may I ask if you are "pedophobic"? If you are opposed to, or intolerant of pedophilia, then by your own definition this would make you a pedophobe, and a bad disciple!

[Luke5361]

@WSGAC I'm afraid this is a lost cause. We are going to be called hateful or homophobic no matter what we say. The other side is grasping at straws because they know they have no scriptural backing, and they know the trends for liberal churches are not good. I think that is the main reason for the shrill tone that we're seeing from their posters.

Just bear in mind that the Christian response must be loving and controlled. Homosexuals are sinners, so are we. Christ loves us all.

[WSGAC]

@Luke5361 - True, but at some point no means no. And if they beat down the doors to get us to bless sin then "controlled" does not mean "door mats" for Christ.

[Luke5361]

@WSGAC We always have the option of leaving the church, or in my case, getting the individual congregation to break away from the denomination.

I'm afraid the battle is lost in the mainlines, unfortunately. They were once the bastion of American religion and morality. In 20 years, they'll look like the churches of Europe: merged together, still bankrupt, and 95% empty on Sundays.

[samnmman]

@WSGAC xenophobia [ˌzɛnəˈfəʊbɪə] n (Psychology) hatred or fear of foreigners or strangers or of their politics or culture; hatred of any person that is unlike yourself; hatred of things that are not understood - xenophobic adj

Read a book friend!

[WSGAC]

@samnmman - Hatred of things not understood? What don't I understand about homosexuality? And I noticed you didn't answer my question about pedophilia. Are you tolerant or intolerant of this sexual expression; do you in any way fear or hate it?

[samnmman]

@WSGAC There's a lot you don't seem to understand. Your question was asinine so not deserving of a reply. I don't like to play games like this that are to no avail. When one argues with an idiot, others may not be able to tell which one is the fool. So, my time with your idiocy is over. Go in peace, love and the tolerance of Christ Jesus!

[WSGAC]

@samnmman - The cowardly, but predictable, dodge that feigns moral superiority, pretending to be above it all, but lacks for substance. You may leave now.  Take your debauchery and go somewhere else to hallow it.

[IanLoewen]

@demarie007 God's called us to be judges in his perspective, and when sin comes into the world, we take a look at what God says first. Judging without God is the kind of judgement that the Bible forbids. Now onto the subject at heart. Numerous places the Bible says homosexuality is a sin. Read about Sodom and Gomorrah, read numerous things on what the apostle Paul says (1 Corinthians 6:9-11 among other verses). Granted, I have struggles myself. I do not try to look for ways to justify them.

[IanLoewen]

@IanLoewen and by struggles I mean I am a sinner too.

[samnmman]

@IanLoewen The FINAL teaching was to love one another...man and woman, slave and free, Jew or Gentile. Cherry picking The Bible is unacceptable in debating this issue.

[IanLoewen]

@samnmman I am not cherry picking. What I am doing is talking to you about the instances in the Bible where it clearly states that homosexuality is wrong. It's relating to the subject. You do not have to do research in depth about the topic to find which word meant which thing. It's as plain as the nose on my face. Funny how people like you tell people not to judge, yet you go on and judge yourself.

[samnmman]

@IanLoewen "Funny how people like you tell people not to judge, yet you go on and judge yourself." If you feel judged, by all mean own it. I was not judging you but trying to get across to "PEOPLE LIKE YOU" that you can formulate any opinion in the world, by picking and choosing passages out of context.

[samnmman]

@IanLoewen Read the entire Bible and get the progressive and evolutionary meaning of this set of books.  Christ's greatest and only teaching for us to follow on earth is to love GOD, love yourself, love your neighbor, and even love your enemy. NOW, I judge that you fall short on all accounts.

[190xtdiesel]

@samnmman Also we will have to ordain those who want to have sex with animals because that is also forbidden in the "cherry picked" passages you refer to. Do you see what kind of a mess this will open up. And i know you will say i am being extreme but I heard of a pastor a few years ago so that God created homosexuality and beastiality. Do you really think that is what God wants. That is why he wanted his people to be different. " Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways." Lev 18:24

[samnmman]

@190xtdiesel That's totally ridiculous!

[190xtdiesel]

@samnmman what is ridiculous? that a pastor said that about beastiality? he said God made 5 kinds of sexuality if i remember correctly. homo, hetero, bi, beast and i am not sure about the other one. i am checking with my friend who was at that meeting when he said this. i wasnt there, and i will get back to you. but the bottom line is, if you carry this thought process all the way out, you cant put any restrictions or limits on what people can do. you cant pick and choose.

[demarie007]

@WSGAC You apparently have a log in your eye. As such I will pray that God will open your heart and mind to hear God speaking truth in the testimony of your LGBT brothers and sisters. Until such time I will refuse to engage in a conversation with someone so full of hate that he or she damns me without any basis in personal knowledge and in direct contravention of Jesus' commands. Therefore I will pray for the spirit of the Christ who said "forgive them for they know not what they do."

[IanLoewen]

@demarie007 you are also judging. Just thought I'd let you know.

[demarie007]

@symondsseeds. I am so sorry you are full of hatred, and refuse to allow God to speak to you about God's creation. You refuse to listen when your gay and lesbian (and have forefend that any transgender or bisexual) might speak to you about our reality. I will pray that you might one day soften your heart and hear God speaking to you, but until that time I refuse to allow you to lie about me or compare me to a pedophile.

[WSGAC]

@demarie007 - Your reality is dysfunctional, in the same way that incest, beastiality, pedophilia...etc., are dysfunctional. That you "feel" sexual toward another of your own gender does not make such behavior normal, anymore than a pedophile sexual "feelings" towards children makes his/her behavior normal. I know the pedophile comparison irritates you, but the same reasoning you use to legitimize your behavior can also be used for the pedophile. You're dysfunctional and need to repent!

[demarie007]

@symondsseeds. How do you know? I was gay long before I ever had gay sex. I have always dreamed of sex with women. I was not abused, and I grew up in a heterosexual PCUSA minister's home. I followed him into the ministry, and would still be in the PCUSA had this Ammendment come in time to save me from the hatred of people like you. I got booted, still never having had gay sex. The man who broke his marriage vows with the female secretary got to stay.

[WSGAC]

@demarie007 - " I was gay long before I ever had gay sex. I have always dreamed of sex with women."

Ms. Demarie, are you aware that a pedophile says the same about child sex, and dreaming of sex with children? Yeah, I know, "You can't compare pedophilia to homosexuality." But just consider for a moment what you're saying. You are gay because you've always dreamed of sex with women. Does this legitimize the act/behavior? Your dysfunction warps your reasoning ability.

[samnmman]

@WSGAC Your pattern of lumping all that YOU HATE into one group is sociopathic. Each social isuue (or so-called menace, to you) must be considered on its own.

[WSGAC]

@samnmman - I am not lumping all with anything. I simply enumerate the various dysfunctions that have yet to be normalized. Lesbianism, Gay, Bisexual and Transgenderism have all been normalized. But why stop there? Let's also include in this circus of sexual dysfunctions - incest, pedophilia, beastiality, sado-masochism...etc. Afterall, Jesus made no mention of these sexual expressions, and since people have been created with their particular desires we certainly wouldn't want to be intolerant.

[samnmman]

@WSGAC How can you be in such denial of your own actions? You are indeed lumping natural ways of being as not normal or having to be normalized. That's the short-coming in your belief system. Being born GLBTQ is God-given. Do you think people chose a life where people like you, and there are many like you, look down your noses, as if these other children of GOD are “lesser than?" What arrogance! Do you not think that if GOD hated queerfolk as much as you that he'd stop making them?

[WSGAC]

@samnmman - If it is God given, then certainly the pedophile who says, "I was born this way" must also fit into the GLBTQ circus? Why not GLBTQP? Come on...let them in, and love all God's children! All love is good love, ya know? And while we're at it let's add the letter B to the end, for those who enjoy sex with animals (beastiality). Yes, the GLBTQPB children of God...Gay Lesbian Bisexual Transgender Pedophile Beastiality disciples of Christ. What a church!

[samnmman]

@WSGAC The other "sexual dysfunctions" you mention that are more found in much greater proportion in the heterosexual masses may have a sociopathic basis, something that can be cured or controlled. Jesus didn't mention a lot of things but in your circular logic, that doesn’t mean he didn't love them. We are all here to teach each other. Tolerance and love would be two good ones for you, my friend. Peace!

[blacsdad]

Yay for sin!  So what's next in the agenda?

[blacsdad]

Yay for sin! What's next?

[symondsseeds]

God is a God of love,but he HATES SIN.We must love these people(so called gays) and hate the sin.It is sad to see any church allow itself to be decieved by the enemy.Looks like they stopped reading the word of God a long time ago.These people are not "Gay".You can not be your own behavior.This is about them not wanting to change their sinful sexual behavior.For goodness sakes can anyone do what the bible says for once.

[HenhousetheRed]

@symondsseeds You know absolutely nothing about being gay. Proves how ignorant you are, and how ignorant most religious people are as well. Being gay is not a choice, nor is it unnatural, nor is it a sin. If you want to do what the Bible actually says, why don't you condone slavery? Why don't you condone abuse towards women and children? Hmmm? This is what the Bible approves of. Be a good Christian. Or continue to cherry pick your verses.

[symondsseeds]

God is a God of love,but he HATES SIN.We must love these people(so called gays) and hate the sin.It is sad to see any church allow itself be decieved by the enemy.Looks like they stopped reading the word of God a long time ago.These people are not "Gay".You can not be your own behavior.This is about them not wanting to change their sinful sexual behavior.For goodness sakes can anyone do what the bible says for once.

[dsung730]

The last nail in the coffin!

[WSGAC]

Paul: "It has actually been reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. And you are proud?" 1 Cor 5:1-2

PCUSA: Paul, who are you to judge God's children? This man has gifts for ministry and is an upstanding member in our church! Incestophobia is not becoming of what it means to be a Christian. You need to let go of your fear and hatred and embrace all God's children!...that all might freely serve!

[dsung730]

Jump off the sinking ship called PCUSA!!!

[WC3POchannel10A]

@dsung730 Time to man the life boats! I paddled away in mine a year ago and have not looked back. And it was not just on this issue. nFOG, support of Israel, etc....There are a number of things that caused me to leave the institution I once loved.

[hreichgott]

Okay, if anyone actually wants to know about how lots of Bible-reading Jesus-following Christians can also be gay, start by reading the whole Bible. Keep an eye out for anything related to sex and marriage. See what it says, especially the parts you've never seen before, and the parts that would upset you if anyone tried to imitate them. Don't use shortcuts like concordances. The picture is a lot more complicated when you read the whole thing, but that's God's revelation for you.

[LRigoulot]

"There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear; for fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not reached perfection in love."

- 1 John 4:18

God is love and God loves everyone. Who are we to say who God calls? Keep talking with God.

[imageodei]

@ElfPudding God calls us to point out sin of those within the faith. Eph 5:11. By the way, aren't you judging as well? God also says that those who love Him are to hate evil. Please read your bible.

[cather23]

To live under the Lordship of Jesus Christ includes fidelity and chastity.

[DJskeemer]

and God said “You shall not commit adultery."

Ammendment 10A removes the requirement that ordained officers of the presbyterian church practice fidelity in heterosexual marriage and chastity in singleness. Let's forget about the homosexual argument for a bit here and realize that the PCUSA has essentially repealed one of the original 10 commandments.This woman, and others like her have basically told us that their word is more relevent than GOD?!?!?!

[imageodei]

How very sad. This is dead wrong. You'd think a tornado knocking off your steeple would give you a clue. You should submit to the bible and not to human standards.

[DJskeemer]

@imageodei the real problem is that Human standards are SUPPOSED to mirror God's standards. THIS is not the Christian church I want to belong to, let alone be an ordained elder.

[mikeripp]

It is interesting that we live in a time when the Word of GOD is subject to the whims of man!

[Tino81295]

yes, i understand, this is all good news for many people but i dont base my faith on what man and women says but what God says. With that said, what does God say about this? This is not an attack upon the issue, i just want to know what bible verse DIRECTLY encourages Amendment 10-A. In contrast, can you tell me some bible verses that DIRECTLY contradict with this issue. Please comment and answer my questions because i am pretty one sided about this issue and i want to know the other side.

[timesupUS]

@Tino81295 enough to gag a maggot

[Tino81295]

@timesupUS what do you think about this? i still want anwers

[timesupUS]

@Tino81295 God himself has cursed this evil nation.

[Tino81295]

@timesupUS guess you could say that, God loves and forgives but this is just taking it too far, people need to pick up their bibles. I am not homophobic or against them, but this is taking it too far

[timesupUS]

@Tino81295 A phobia is an irrational fear. Thats quite a different thing than having a moral logical objection to an nation institutionalizing and promoting a deviant perverted lifestyle as acceptable and normal.

[bbmcg1948]

Thank YOU well spoken If viewers will listen to the entire piece perhaps they will seee that it is a fine message for all.

[hreichgott]

At last! Ordination standards are now about following Jesus, not about whether you're gay!! The standards just went UP.

[timesupUS]

@hreichgott God set the standards. they dont change NO sexual immoral persons will inherit the kingdom of God.

[DJskeemer]

@hreichgott

right, now it doesn't matter if you're gay, a prostitute, or even a bigomest. They've removed FIDELITY and CHASTITY from our ordainment standards. The PCUSA has just told all ordained pastors elders and deacons that regardless of God's laws, we are permitted (by PCUSA) to have multiple sex partners, whether we're married or not.. I could care less about the homosexual argument, but to boldly repeal one of the original 10 commandments? That is near blasphomy.

[mikeripp]

@DJskeemer Well stated

[imageodei]

@hreichgott You can't follow Jesus and stay in sin. The words of Christ, "If you love me you will obey what I command." Please read your bible.

[mikeripp]

@hreichgott poor read

[AriKinder83]

Time for people to run from the PC(USA).

[DJskeemer]

So nice to see that people think that they can veto one of our most precious commandments. This doesn't just allow homosexuals to be ordained, it removes the requirement of FIDELITY AND CHASTITY for those that wish to be ordained as well...FIDELITY?!?!?!?! Thank you PCUSA, you've just created a monster.

[postmodernman07043]

Maybe now we can get back to what we, the church is really about: sharing and living out the Gospel of Jesus Christ reaching out meeting people at their point of need with love and compassion.

[timesupUS]

@postmodernman07043  blah blah , NO perverts in heaven.

[WC3POchannel10A]

@postmodernman07043 Your username speaks volumes. It is postmodernism in the church and society that led to this in PCUSA.

[magdalene6127]

Thanks be to God!

[OptiMystic8]

VERY well said. I'm not Presbyterian... yet... but a thoughtful speaker like her might get me into church on Sunday.

[makirkland]

Now I hope the PC (USA) is equally understanding of those churches who choose to leave the denomination...

[WC3POchannel10A]

@makirkland The moderator calls for it in a way as individuals. Yet, she wants everyone to stay in the "big tent." She's fooling herself to believe many people will not leave. More so, I think this will cause the denomination to split. All of the hard work that led to the 1983 union down the drain. And as for the churches who want to leave as a whole, PCUSA claims they own all of them. I see ugly legal fights over property as the future rather than a gracious parting.

[blacsdad]

@makirkland

I can assure you, they will not be understanding. They will sue the church for THEIR OWN PROPERTY as a standard operating procedure.

[samnmman]

@makirkland ~ Farewell and God's peace to you.

[Mjollnir50]

A more excellent way.



[WildlyDramatic]

History in the making.

[imageodei]

@WildlyDramatic ... Exactly. It is a pitiful history of a denomination that has been shrinking in size because of their desire to include sin rather than call sinners to repent. You're history PCUSA.