"'If there is no minimum wage, what is there to stop corporations to short-change their employees and pay them close to nothing for their work?'
The same thing that stops them from paying everyone MW and no more right now: supply and demand.
If the supply curve shifts to the right demand STAYS WHERE IT IS! It's the EQUILIBRIUM PRICE between supply and demand that drops, but EQUILIBRIUM QUANTITY INCREASES.MORE are sold at a LOWER price!!!"
2:08 You should have included Bastiat's joke about banning all windows to help the light bulb industry (Bastiat used the candle stick makers, but it works the same).
I started listening to your joke...but the delivery was so poor...that I actually got embarrased and had to stop listening to it. That usually happens when statists try to tell jokes through their veil of hatred, bitterness and soul-less nihilism.
@Denon333dash888 It's a Keynesian thing, where an industry is "propped up" with stimulus money. Circular Flow refers to the idea that the industry will spend that money, and then the places that the industry spent the money on will spend it again, and so on, and the economy will magically recover.
@shanedk Huh. When I was taking macro, the circular flow model was presented as something of a model to show the theoretical relationship between firms and households, a bit like a yin-yang model where both sides were important to the whole.
But then again, neither my instructors nor the textbook authors were Keynesians.
@Virgil0211 In essence, yes. But the Keynesians have this idea that you can somehow inject money into the model without withdrawing it from somewhere else.
@shanedk Ah, I see. My teacher/textbook used it to demonstrate the relationship/reliance on each other. Guess I should be glad I had the instructors I did. =P
Im gonna be honest, I dont get how the third joke applies to Keynsians and Austrians. I mean it was funny, but I dont see how the Keynsia/Austrian characters fit into it.
A Keynesian with a 1,000$ bill wants to buy gold from an Austrian economist. When he gets there, the Austrian economist asks him:
'Why are you giving me this fancy sheet of paper? It's worthless! How much practical use can it possibly have?'
The Keynesian says: 'Well, it has a "value" on it! How much gold can it get for it?' I'm going to print some more from the Federal Reserve so I can get even more gold!'
@rebelq1 Disparaging opinions or statements made against groups of people that aren't a part of the defining aspect of that group. "Black people break the law" is bigotry. "Criminals break the law" is not.
If haven't said so already, of the four jokes made in the video, my favorite would be the "how many Congressman does it take to change a change a light-bulb" joke.
I'll only adress the first joke as that's all I listened to. From my perspective, the private businessman would pay the average guy to push his car for him to the nearest petrol station, then drive off with the petrol leaving the guy behind when it's done! Unless of course the government official was there with a cop to keep an eye on him ;).
And on a wider subject; I'm OK with private companies for the most part, save for some important services. With rules of course.
@Nightmare060 A cop comes up and says that your car was used during a drug deal, so he takes it. That's it. No one gets charged with a crime, you never get charged, they just take it, auction it off, and use the money to fund their department. Since the car is charged with the crime and not you, you have no way of getting it back--no habeas corpus, no due process, nothing.
@shanedk That is disgraceful indeed. However I am certainly glad that this action is in the minority. However I would hardly trust private businesses to do any better.
@Nightmare060 First of all, this is happening all over the country, in practically every police department. It's ubiquitous.
Second, when a private business does it, it's called "stealing." They can be prosecuted, and they can be held liable and forced to pay. That doesn't happen with government.
@shanedk But on the flip side, when there is no-one but the private businesses to enforce said laws, they will often bend the rules themselves just like they will cut corners to earn themselves more money. We need a state that puts the interest of the people with such laws in place, and campaign for serious reforms and vote for those that would act on this reform. As the saying goes, absolute power corrupts, absolutely.
@vspqbd BP Oilspill, numerous air accidents due to faulty maintenance, and chocolate companies using forced child labor from developing countries. You were saying?
@Nightmare060 "BP Oilspill" A government corporation funded in significant part by government subsidies and given special dispensation such as liability caps. Try again.
"numerous air accidents due to faulty maintenance," Flying is one of the safest activities you can engage in.
"chocolate companies using forced child labor from developing countries." There is NOTHING forced about the child labor. The children work of their own accord, because if they don't the family starves.
@shanedk Hahaha! I love how you twist the facts to completely ignore all shortcomings of private businesses by shifting the blame. The FACT Remains that the government shouldn't have supported BP to begin with and that it is BP themselves who CHOSE to cut corners and CHOSE to let the disaster happen. It is a fact that airlines have cut corners with much loss of life. And if you think there is nothing "Forced" about children being sold into slave labor to feed their families, you are delusional.
@Nightmare060 "I love how you twist the facts to completely ignore all shortcomings of private businesses by shifting the blame."
YOU'RE the one who twisted the facts. I straightened them.
Here's a fact for you: when they ban child labor in less developed countries, the children either starve or go into prostitution. Your government is NOT omnipotent and has NO supernatural powers. They're subject to the laws of economics like everybody else.
@shanedk Nice job putting words in my mouth. It's the government who are putting in place Fair trade laws to prevent this from happening. Private companies are those who would gladly ruin our environment if it makes them a few bucks more. Hence why the government needs to be there to put strict laws and rules in place AND enforce them. Not just turning a blind eye to it like they have been doing. There needs to be MORE state regulation, not less.
@vspqbd Also, watch any episode of BBC Rogue traders to see small businesses conning unknowing customers into shoddy or sometimes none existent services.
@Nightmare060 Geez, haven't we been over that enough? Besides, it would only be relevant if Britain were a free market. It ain't (it's just below Chile on the Economic Freedom Index).
@shanedk Yeah, cause if there were no regulating standards or laws to shut them down, then they would NEVER proceed to con people by over charging for faulty products. Oh wait....
@vspqbd Same old straw man combined with poisoning the well. There is no threat of violence you speak of. If your stupid enough to attack a cop then you'd better be ready to get your ass handed to you. Incapacitation or worse, shot.
@vspqbd Another straw-man. If you go running at a cop with a knife or firing a gun, what do you expect them to do? Hand you a lolipop and pet you on the head for being a "silly boy"?
He seems to think you're an anarcho capitalist, which you aren't.
As for his points, if he bothered to watch the video by Stefan (or some of the others by folks like Jacob Spinney, Stargazer, etc), or use even basic logic, he would know what he said was complete horseshit.
All you need to know about Elmo in a nutshell. An emotive, ignorant retard who feels that it's okay to ignore the content of someone's argument so long as he feels emotionally secure in his own.
@vspqbd Considering you just dismiss out of hand any source I suggest as simply "Just a TV show" or even completely ignore any time that a private business has put profit before the welfare of others, I simply don't bother to continue arguing since it just goes round in sources. Maybe when you right-wing libertarians stop plugging your ears and projecting your own dogma onto other people when they bring up real examples of why there needs to be state regulation, then we'll talk.
@Nightmare060 Your argument would only be the case if we argue that it never, ever, ever happened--and since no one here ever said that, this is just another of your pathetic strawman arguments.
The point was Elmo's inability to comprehend even basic economic principles, and to put emotion over facts. I'd recommend you avoid using him to back up your arguments in the future.
@rebelq1 I might take you up on your challenge sometime. For now, however, I'll settle for the challenge of trying to get rid of the hickey I just got. Any hints? I'd rather not have to cover up the rather sizable red marks, as I don't have any decent turtlenecks. =P
Note to self: The missus gets crazy aggressive when she puts on the cop outfit.
@Surhotchaperchlorome The performance on an IQ test is a measure of how quickly you can process patterns of information, which is what you need to do to learn. Someone with a low IQ can learn anything someone with a high IQ can, it'll just take them longer.
@Surhotchaperchlorome It's interesting, and shows quite clearly that the current "Blame the children / blame the parents" mantra of government schools is not only incorrect, it's perverse.
Did you hear the joke about the Austrian botanist who claimed that water was not necessary or for plant growth?
When it was pointed out that plants which were regularly watered grew stronger than plants which weren't, he dismissed the results as irrelevant because in both instances water had been used.
@MarcusCardiff No, YOU are the one who is BIGOTED towards businessmen. A businessman who behaves in the stupid way you portray wouldn't stay in business long. You need to shove off your pathetic dogmas and start looking at the world as it REALLY is.
@MarcusCardiff Why would that be more rational? The working man is more fit than the businessman, and so he'd save himself the trip back, plus the cost of the gas can. The businessman only goes the other way because he knows he couldn't get there that fast by pushing it.
Your "correction" just shows how ignorant and bigoted of businesses you are.
What does the mob who forces people to pay protection money and the government who forces people to pay taxes have in common? Both won't admit it is extortion when they are doing it.
@shanedk You called me a liar and you have the stones to accuse me of libel? We're done. Take your warning and shove it. Your dissembling dishonest BS has undercut everything else you have done. A quick search has revealed that you do this out of habit. Stick to making science videos, because when it comes to your ideology, you are worse than any Theist. Go ahead and block me now and I will return the favor. Call me a fucking liar again. I fucking dare you, you slanderous little weasel.
@HeavyTrafficAhead Based on that fact alone and the fact that you willfully ignore it, it would seem that you are the dishonest broker here as well as that charletan, Jeff Tucker. I've read his other sleight of hand BS articles before. He's a joke, just like the rest of you Austrian School mountebanks. It doesn't matter, you're all about to be tossed on the ash heap of history, because nobody is buying your ill conceived drivel of a philosophy after seeing your 'capitalist heroes' in action
Tried it your way once. It was called the Gilded Age and we had wonderful things like kids dying in coal mines because of no child labor laws, patent medicines that poisoned people because of no Food And Drug Act, economic turbulence because greed heads built houses of cards because of no SEC. I find it ironic that you portray the economist as the one going backwards when it's Libertarians that pine for the 'Good Old Days' that, quite frankly, weren't so good unless you were J.P. Morgan.
@HeavyTrafficAhead More of the bogus, disgusting propaganda that keeps us held back. Check out my videos; ALL of the crap you spew has been long-refuted.
@shanedk Really? So there really was no child labor in this country? Patent medicine is the figment of those evils statist liberals? It's all a conspiracy? There was no banking crisis in 1906? All of it propaganda? I don't give a damn what you say in your videos, the fact of the matter is unless you were a wealthy white protestant male in the 19th century (and most of the 20th) life was a big ball of suck. History is not with the Libertarians and the present isn't looking to good either.
@HeavyTrafficAhead Child labor existed throughout history, and was eliminated by the wealth the free market created BEFORE the US government got around to passing any laws against it, as I have shown.
I have also shown how the FDA causes far more deaths than it prevents.
I've also done a lot about the housing crisis, of which you show a profound ignorance.
I've covered the 1907 Banking Crisis, the so-called "robber barons," etc. But you have no response, so all you do is insult.
@shanedk LOL! Wut? You have got to be kidding me. Child labor was eliminated because of wealth. Are you joking? Oh man this I have to see Let's stick with that premise for now. What the hell is it called? I don't see anything titled that even remotely addresses the subject. I see you have a video that has the usual Libertarian view of the Great Depression that has the same arguments that have been refuted too many times to count. I hope your child labor vid has more game than that
@HeavyTrafficAhead Child labor CANNOT be eliminated ANY OTHER WAY. Here's a better question: how come NO society had EVER eliminated child labor until we had about 100 years of a mostly-free market?
And if you have refutations of my Great Depression video (or any others), post them. Otherwise, you're doing exactly what the creationists do.
@shanedk What's the title? BTW I would think a rational scientist would know better than to confuse correlation with causation. That's like Bible Thumpers trying to blame everything bad that happened since Torcaso in '61 because the decision eliminated prayer from schools. Let's see if your video has solid evidence that child labor was eliminated because of wealth generation and not government intervention. A link would be nice
@HeavyTrafficAhead I talked about it in several videos; the False Dichotomy was one.
Look at what happens when people try to go into third world countries and stop the child labor there. What happens to the children? Research, then come back and answer.
@shanedk Uh uh, you made a positive claim and you even said you talked about it in a video. I asked for the title/link and you're now telling me to do research. It's not my job to do your homework for you. As for accusing me of confusing correlation with causation. There was child labor in this country, there was a campaign to end it by Progressives culminating in the Fair Labor and Standards Act in 1938. Although it should be noted that states had reg child labor before then. Cause-->Effect
@HeavyTrafficAhead Homework Fallacy again. If you want, I can just TELL you what happens to them, but I THOUGHT you might actually want to learn something on your own. Silly me.
What happens is that the children either go into prostitution or starve to death. But I guess that's okay with you, as long as they're not victims of evil capitalists, huh?
Again, the free market had pretty much eliminated child labor by the turn of the century.
@shanedk That's not a fallacy. YOU made an extraordinary claim, YOU said you've made a video about, And YOU need to back it up with the evidence. Until then it's an unverified claim and I'll stick to the homework that I have already done, in an obscure field called HISTORY
@HeavyTrafficAhead I HAVE provided evidence. You REFUSE to look at it. And it's NOT an extraordinary claim at all; the extraordinary claim is YOURS, that we can eliminate this just by passing a law.
Here's another source for you to ignore: Google "The Trouble With Child Labor Laws" and read Jeffrey A. Tucker's article. Prediction: you won't, because for you this is about preserving your dogma, not finding out the truth.
@shanedk Uh no you haven't until you mentioned that article. You Did NOT give me a title, You did NOT give a link. I've already read that article years ago and does the same thing your doing here. A bunch of opinion, as if it's just letting teens(who can work BTW) fix your computer. Not every teen is a suburban kid hanging out playing XBOx, nor does he say ANYTHING about age limits or working conditions. Heavy on the opinion, light on the facts. About what I'd expect from the Mises site.
@HeavyTrafficAhead So, as I predicted, then. You're nothing but a dogmatist, and there's no point in even TRYING to have a conversation with you. You started out your very first post with ad hominems, well poisoning, strawman, correlation/causation fallacies, and wild accusations, and you went downhill from there.
@shanedk Uh no, it doesn't have anything to do with whether I'm a dogmatist or not. It has to do with the fact that so far you haven't provided any conclusive evidence for an extraordinary claim and neither did Tucker. His assumption that ending child labor laws would give those lazy teens some work values is predicated on a very narrow definition of what such a repeal would entail. It also doesn't address that the majority of those teens CAN work with some restrictions. I'm done as well
@HeavyTrafficAhead He cited sources, provided quotes, and demonstrated a logical progression. That's a LOT more than you've done. No, this bursts your dogma way open and you'll have none of it; so you insult sources rather than rebutting them. Pathetic.
"From the outset, federal law made exceptions for kid movie stars...If you are 14 or 15, you can ask your public school for a waiver...if you are in private school or home school, you must go ask your local Social Service Agency...The legal exemption is also made for delivering newspaper..." etc.
So, when you said he didn't address this, you were either LYING about what he said or you were LYING about having read it. Which is it?
OK, THIS is the comment I just spent several minutes looking for -- The one where you state that GodOfTheInternets is banned for calling businessmen murderers, and state that you think you're going to go zero tolerance on this one as well.
Judging by comments he's left on Stefan's videos where he praises voluntary behavior, it sounds like he's an anarcho-communist; and/or, judging by his channel, a troll.
@mrphoo67 The only reason NASA would fail as a private entity is because the administrators don't know how to do anything but extract funding from Congress.
As far as spaceflight goes, the only thing NASA has a near-monopoly on is US non-military launches. It isn't actually that hard to build a launch facility, especially if you're already building the rockets. You just need a suitable piece of property and a big wad of cash. There are several companies that do.
@evensgrey That is exactly why I want privatize both nasa and US post office. I am tire government bureaucracy extracting so much money out of congress because they don't know how to succeed of their own. If privatizing nasa the us post office doesn't ruin them their success came without wasted money from the government.
also if nasa is privatize then nasa has more freedom to do what they want.
@mrphoo67 And imagine how much further they could get without all of the artificial government limitations in place. So much of their design and research involves finding ways around these restrictions.
@mrphoo67 The Post Office failing if privatized would only demonstrate the incompetence of the administrators. After all, look at the numerous private courier companies that make healthy profits, even without extra charges for things like rural delivery. If you aren't government-mandated, you have to delivery what the customer's want.
@mrphoo67 The Post Office failing if privatized would only demonstrate the incompetence of the administrators. After all, look at the numerous private courier companies that make healthy profits, even without extra charges for things like rural delivery. If you aren't government-mandated, you have to delivery what the customer's want.
@Scoforever Werner Heisenberg is speeding down the freeway and is pulled over by a state trooper. The trooper goes up to Heisenberg and says, "Do you have ANY idea how fast you were going?"
And Heisenberg replies, "Nope--but I know EXACTLY where I am!"
@calvinhobbesliker2 One big flaw in Keynesian economics is that they don't consider that people will react to a change in policy, changing many variables that policy is based on. In the joke, the Keynesian doesn't expect the Austrian's behavior to change because of the bet and the odds, and loses as a result.
@calvinhobbesliker2 Changed from trying to stump him with legitimate puzzles, which he likely would have done, to making up crap that's impossible to answer.
Keynesian economics is the economics that permeates throughout the political system of the US and Europe.
@calvinhobbesliker2 In 500 characters or less, I'm oversimplifying, but basically if you find yourself in a recession the way to get out of it is to have government spend a whole bunch of money, running up deficits if need be.
@rebelq1 No one who tries to paint his political opposition as pedophiles has ANY call to complain about the language others use against him, you worthless piece of scum.
@rebelq1 You must be six different kinds of crazy if you think I'm going to answer ANY more questions from you, you lying, quote-mining, abusive sack of shit!
This has been flagged as spam show
"'If there is no minimum wage, what is there to stop corporations to short-change their employees and pay them close to nothing for their work?'
The same thing that stops them from paying everyone MW and no more right now: supply and demand.
If the supply curve shifts to the right demand STAYS WHERE IT IS! It's the EQUILIBRIUM PRICE between supply and demand that drops, but EQUILIBRIUM QUANTITY INCREASES.MORE are sold at a LOWER price!!!"
as told by shanedk
headlessmonkey4all 5 months ago
2:08 You should have included Bastiat's joke about banning all windows to help the light bulb industry (Bastiat used the candle stick makers, but it works the same).
StatelessLiberty 7 months ago
@StatelessLiberty I used that in an episode of the Bogosity podcast.
shanedk 7 months ago
I started listening to your joke...but the delivery was so poor...that I actually got embarrased and had to stop listening to it. That usually happens when statists try to tell jokes through their veil of hatred, bitterness and soul-less nihilism.
WhitePlumeMountain 9 months ago
@WhitePlumeMountain Uh, I'm not a statist.
shanedk 9 months ago 7
@WhitePlumeMountain retard
david52875 9 months ago
@Denon333dash888 It's a Keynesian thing, where an industry is "propped up" with stimulus money. Circular Flow refers to the idea that the industry will spend that money, and then the places that the industry spent the money on will spend it again, and so on, and the economy will magically recover.
Of course, it's just a Broken Window Fallacy.
shanedk 1 year ago
@shanedk
And it's something I'm taught in my econ class, to this very day.
vspqbd 1 year ago
@shanedk Huh. When I was taking macro, the circular flow model was presented as something of a model to show the theoretical relationship between firms and households, a bit like a yin-yang model where both sides were important to the whole.
But then again, neither my instructors nor the textbook authors were Keynesians.
Virgil0211 1 year ago
@Virgil0211 In essence, yes. But the Keynesians have this idea that you can somehow inject money into the model without withdrawing it from somewhere else.
shanedk 1 year ago
@shanedk Ah, I see. My teacher/textbook used it to demonstrate the relationship/reliance on each other. Guess I should be glad I had the instructors I did. =P
Virgil0211 1 year ago
Im gonna be honest, I dont get how the third joke applies to Keynsians and Austrians. I mean it was funny, but I dont see how the Keynsia/Austrian characters fit into it.
SecularNumanist 1 year ago
@SecularNumanist Because the Keynesian didn't consider how a change in incentives (the odds) affect change in behavior.
shanedk 1 year ago
Q: You've in a large elevator with a lion, a tiger and a pig. You have a gun with two shots left in it. What do you do?
A: Shoot the pig twice to make sure it's dead.
vspqbd 1 year ago
@vspqbd I don't get it.
shanedk 1 year ago
@shanedk
pig = a cop
Yeah, I was in a rather dark mood at the time.
vspqbd 1 year ago
@shanedk
And (in an attempt to cover my own ass), if that joke counts as bigoted for some reason (heaven forbid), I'll delete it.
I basically told a joke I've heard before only substituted "pig" in place of "lawyer".
I'm surprised you've never heard people call cops 'pigs' before.
vspqbd 1 year ago
@vspqbd I have, but you gave no clue in the joke that you were using it in that context. You only gave it in the context of other animals.
shanedk 1 year ago
@shanedk
The context was that it was posted on an anti-state video, silly. :P
vspqbd 1 year ago
103 butthurt statetards can't take jokes.
Akatam0t0ma 1 year ago 5
You've probably heard it before, but:
If we put the government in charge of the Sahara desert, in five years there would be a shortage of sand.
HelplessVictim 1 year ago
@HelplessVictim That was Milton Friedman, I believe.
shanedk 1 year ago
A Keynesian with a 1,000$ bill wants to buy gold from an Austrian economist. When he gets there, the Austrian economist asks him:
'Why are you giving me this fancy sheet of paper? It's worthless! How much practical use can it possibly have?'
The Keynesian says: 'Well, it has a "value" on it! How much gold can it get for it?' I'm going to print some more from the Federal Reserve so I can get even more gold!'
LOL
rebelq1 1 year ago
What's the difference between the Mafia and the government?
One extorts money from you by force with the promise of protection, and the other is a crime syndicate.
shanedk 1 year ago
I'm curious. Ho do you define bigotry?
rebelq1 1 year ago
@rebelq1 Disparaging opinions or statements made against groups of people that aren't a part of the defining aspect of that group. "Black people break the law" is bigotry. "Criminals break the law" is not.
shanedk 1 year ago
@shanedk
Disparaging?
I thought bigotry is defined as just intolerance as if tolerance is a virtue.
rebelq1 1 year ago
@rebelq1
Ad, BTW! Intolerance against a certain type of community not just any kind of intolerance.
rebelq1 1 year ago
@shanedk
Yes, but is 'my penis breaks vaginas"?
I'm in a Gumba Masta type mood atm. XP
vspqbd 1 year ago
Hahaa! I loved that elevator joke!
Finlandcitizen 1 year ago
If haven't said so already, of the four jokes made in the video, my favorite would be the "how many Congressman does it take to change a change a light-bulb" joke.
That one was made of epic win.
vspqbd 1 year ago
I'll only adress the first joke as that's all I listened to. From my perspective, the private businessman would pay the average guy to push his car for him to the nearest petrol station, then drive off with the petrol leaving the guy behind when it's done! Unless of course the government official was there with a cop to keep an eye on him ;).
And on a wider subject; I'm OK with private companies for the most part, save for some important services. With rules of course.
Nightmare060 1 year ago
@Nightmare060
But what if the cop makes off with the car?
vspqbd 1 year ago
@vspqbd That is unlikley to happen. Unless for a valid reason. I.E; No lisence, insurance etc..
Nightmare060 1 year ago
@Nightmare060 I take it you've never heard of "asset forfeiture"?
shanedk 1 year ago
@shanedk Yeah, not heard of that.
Nightmare060 1 year ago
@Nightmare060 I sent him an article about asset forfeiture and a link to the DownsizeDC page about it, so I doubt he can feign ignorance from now on.
Virgil0211 1 year ago
@Nightmare060 A cop comes up and says that your car was used during a drug deal, so he takes it. That's it. No one gets charged with a crime, you never get charged, they just take it, auction it off, and use the money to fund their department. Since the car is charged with the crime and not you, you have no way of getting it back--no habeas corpus, no due process, nothing.
shanedk 1 year ago
@shanedk That is disgraceful indeed. However I am certainly glad that this action is in the minority. However I would hardly trust private businesses to do any better.
Nightmare060 1 year ago
@Nightmare060 First of all, this is happening all over the country, in practically every police department. It's ubiquitous.
Second, when a private business does it, it's called "stealing." They can be prosecuted, and they can be held liable and forced to pay. That doesn't happen with government.
shanedk 1 year ago
@shanedk But on the flip side, when there is no-one but the private businesses to enforce said laws, they will often bend the rules themselves just like they will cut corners to earn themselves more money. We need a state that puts the interest of the people with such laws in place, and campaign for serious reforms and vote for those that would act on this reform. As the saying goes, absolute power corrupts, absolutely.
Nightmare060 1 year ago
@Nightmare060
"they will often bend the rules themselves just like they will cut corners to earn themselves more money."
Two points that you have only asserted, not shown to be true.
At least not in any general sense.
Also, I hate to break it to you, but this happens with government too, so you haven't solved a single problem even if that were the case.
vspqbd 1 year ago
@vspqbd BP Oilspill, numerous air accidents due to faulty maintenance, and chocolate companies using forced child labor from developing countries. You were saying?
Nightmare060 1 year ago
@Nightmare060 "BP Oilspill" A government corporation funded in significant part by government subsidies and given special dispensation such as liability caps. Try again.
"numerous air accidents due to faulty maintenance," Flying is one of the safest activities you can engage in.
"chocolate companies using forced child labor from developing countries." There is NOTHING forced about the child labor. The children work of their own accord, because if they don't the family starves.
shanedk 1 year ago 2
@shanedk Hahaha! I love how you twist the facts to completely ignore all shortcomings of private businesses by shifting the blame. The FACT Remains that the government shouldn't have supported BP to begin with and that it is BP themselves who CHOSE to cut corners and CHOSE to let the disaster happen. It is a fact that airlines have cut corners with much loss of life. And if you think there is nothing "Forced" about children being sold into slave labor to feed their families, you are delusional.
Nightmare060 1 year ago
@Nightmare060 "I love how you twist the facts to completely ignore all shortcomings of private businesses by shifting the blame."
YOU'RE the one who twisted the facts. I straightened them.
Here's a fact for you: when they ban child labor in less developed countries, the children either starve or go into prostitution. Your government is NOT omnipotent and has NO supernatural powers. They're subject to the laws of economics like everybody else.
shanedk 1 year ago 2
@shanedk Nice job putting words in my mouth. It's the government who are putting in place Fair trade laws to prevent this from happening. Private companies are those who would gladly ruin our environment if it makes them a few bucks more. Hence why the government needs to be there to put strict laws and rules in place AND enforce them. Not just turning a blind eye to it like they have been doing. There needs to be MORE state regulation, not less.
Nightmare060 1 year ago
@Nightmare060
Shane has done a video regarding the free market and environmental protection:
/watch?v=xta4c731F-Y ("Re: Deep Thoughts From an Intellectual Lightweight" by Shane Killian)
vspqbd 1 year ago
@vspqbd Also, watch any episode of BBC Rogue traders to see small businesses conning unknowing customers into shoddy or sometimes none existent services.
Nightmare060 1 year ago
@Nightmare060 Geez, haven't we been over that enough? Besides, it would only be relevant if Britain were a free market. It ain't (it's just below Chile on the Economic Freedom Index).
shanedk 1 year ago
@shanedk Yeah, cause if there were no regulating standards or laws to shut them down, then they would NEVER proceed to con people by over charging for faulty products. Oh wait....
Nightmare060 1 year ago
@Nightmare060
"regulating standards"
Why do they have to be provided by the monopoly of violence we call government?
vspqbd 1 year ago
@vspqbd Same old straw man combined with poisoning the well. There is no threat of violence you speak of. If your stupid enough to attack a cop then you'd better be ready to get your ass handed to you. Incapacitation or worse, shot.
Nightmare060 1 year ago
@Nightmare060
Covered to death in the other video's comments.
And no, it isn't a strawman.
That's what actually happens.
Get over it.
And look up those fallacies while you're at it.
vspqbd 1 year ago
@vspqbd Maybe in your fantasy it does, but in the real world, these threats of violence are none-existant.
Nightmare060 1 year ago
@Nightmare060
Long refuted in the other video's comments.
No matter how many times you say that, it doesn't make it true.
Sorry.
vspqbd 1 year ago
@Nightmare060
Translation: "I'm OK with this initiation of violence so it isn't an initiation of violence."
And you wonder why we call you dogmatists.
vspqbd 1 year ago
@vspqbd Another straw-man. If you go running at a cop with a knife or firing a gun, what do you expect them to do? Hand you a lolipop and pet you on the head for being a "silly boy"?
Nightmare060 1 year ago
@Nightmare060
"another strawman"
False acusation of a strawman, which of, it self is a strawman.
"If you go running at a cop with a knife or firing a gun..."
Ironically, this IS a strawman, and poisoning the well.
In that case, I would be initiating force against him.
I am not initiating force by not paying my taxes.
vspqbd 1 year ago
@Nightmare060 "when there is no-one but the private businesses to enforce said laws"
Who said anything about private businesses enforcing the law? Once again, you're just making stuff up because you can't respond to the REAL point.
shanedk 1 year ago
@shanedk
He seems to think you're an anarcho capitalist, which you aren't.
As for his points, if he bothered to watch the video by Stefan (or some of the others by folks like Jacob Spinney, Stargazer, etc), or use even basic logic, he would know what he said was complete horseshit.
vspqbd 1 year ago
@vspqbd Asking a dogmatist to use basic logic is like asking a penguin to use a Fender Stratocaster.
shanedk 1 year ago
@Nightmare060
/watch?v=PGIgOIFdnMQ ("True News 11: Statism is Dead - Part 1" by Stefan Molyneux)
vspqbd 1 year ago
@vspqbd /watch?v=j4H0_8nnlxE (Free Market leads to Tyrany part 1)
/watch?v=pRy6kV9-U4E&feature=related (Part 2)
Nightmare060 1 year ago
@Nightmare060 watch?v=PEkkXEECu8c
watch?v=nVhVHfY3auQ
watch?v=JActUl9559c&
watch?v=Z0fV1mbeyP0
watch?v=hydFz_7tyWU
All you need to know about Elmo in a nutshell. An emotive, ignorant retard who feels that it's okay to ignore the content of someone's argument so long as he feels emotionally secure in his own.
Virgil0211 1 year ago 2
@Virgil0211 Ad-homenim attacks do not count as a serious argument. Sorry.
Nightmare060 1 year ago
@Nightmare060
"Ad-homenim..."
Again, look up that fallacy and the others before using it.
I did no such thing.
Again, what serious argument.
You've yet to provide a single argument for the initiation of force in your posts.
So there isn't any "argument" to respond to.
vspqbd 1 year ago
@Nightmare060
Speaking of serious arguments, we provided plenty of sources in the last argument set two weeks ago.
When are you going to provide yours?
PS: sorry, but a TV show isn't a source.
If it is, I've got a LOT of Stossel I can use.
vspqbd 1 year ago
@vspqbd Considering you just dismiss out of hand any source I suggest as simply "Just a TV show" or even completely ignore any time that a private business has put profit before the welfare of others, I simply don't bother to continue arguing since it just goes round in sources. Maybe when you right-wing libertarians stop plugging your ears and projecting your own dogma onto other people when they bring up real examples of why there needs to be state regulation, then we'll talk.
Nightmare060 1 year ago
@Nightmare060
Short of a video Elmo (who has been long discredited) You haven't provided anything else.
vspqbd 1 year ago
@Nightmare060 Your argument would only be the case if we argue that it never, ever, ever happened--and since no one here ever said that, this is just another of your pathetic strawman arguments.
shanedk 1 year ago
@shanedk
Something someone else you or Virgil0211 even mentioned two weeks ago when we talked to him on your anti-vaxxer video.
vspqbd 1 year ago
@Nightmare060 Point to a single ad hominem attack.
The point was Elmo's inability to comprehend even basic economic principles, and to put emotion over facts. I'd recommend you avoid using him to back up your arguments in the future.
Virgil0211 1 year ago
@Virgil0211
Perhaps you'd like a little challenge!
Are you a minarchist or an anarchist? If anarchist, then what kind?
You see, I've changed ever since we last talked.
rebelq1 1 year ago
@rebelq1 I might take you up on your challenge sometime. For now, however, I'll settle for the challenge of trying to get rid of the hickey I just got. Any hints? I'd rather not have to cover up the rather sizable red marks, as I don't have any decent turtlenecks. =P
Note to self: The missus gets crazy aggressive when she puts on the cop outfit.
Virgil0211 1 year ago
@Virgil0211
Seriously! What are you anarchist or minarchist?
rebelq1 1 year ago
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Virgil0211 1 year ago
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Virgil0211 1 year ago
the biggest jokes here are the title of this video and the failed faux comedian
sfiorare 1 year ago
@sfiorare Awwww, another butt-hurt statist...
shanedk 1 year ago 9
@shanedk
Word.
vspqbd 1 year ago
@shanedk Would you mind un-marking the earlier comment I made? It seems like it was marked as spam.
Virgil0211 1 year ago
@sfiorare - wrong again
sfiorare 1 year ago
@Surhotchaperchlorome From the Wall-street Journal's interview with Peter Schiff we can gather they feel it was nothing more than a stroke of luck.
Xtro2005 1 year ago
@Surhotchaperchlorome But his joke doesn't match praxeology in any way that I can conceive of.
shanedk 1 year ago
@Surhotchaperchlorome Same here.
shanedk 1 year ago
@Surhotchaperchlorome The performance on an IQ test is a measure of how quickly you can process patterns of information, which is what you need to do to learn. Someone with a low IQ can learn anything someone with a high IQ can, it'll just take them longer.
shanedk 1 year ago
@Surhotchaperchlorome I don't know if I'd call it disorder. It's just the brain working a different way.
shanedk 1 year ago
@Surhotchaperchlorome It's interesting, and shows quite clearly that the current "Blame the children / blame the parents" mantra of government schools is not only incorrect, it's perverse.
shanedk 1 year ago
Did you hear the joke about the Austrian botanist who claimed that water was not necessary or for plant growth?
When it was pointed out that plants which were regularly watered grew stronger than plants which weren't, he dismissed the results as irrelevant because in both instances water had been used.
billburns2 1 year ago
@billburns2 I don't get it.
shanedk 1 year ago
puase the vid at anyframe this guy always makes a douch face
maslabud 1 year ago
ha ha ha lightbulb jokes
trajanus28 1 year ago
@MarcusCardiff Yes...all these insults, yet you can't point out ONE SINGLE THING I've actually gotten wrong. Pathetic.
shanedk 1 year ago 3
@MarcusCardiff No, YOU are the one who is BIGOTED towards businessmen. A businessman who behaves in the stupid way you portray wouldn't stay in business long. You need to shove off your pathetic dogmas and start looking at the world as it REALLY is.
shanedk 1 year ago 3
@MarcusCardiff Why would that be more rational? The working man is more fit than the businessman, and so he'd save himself the trip back, plus the cost of the gas can. The businessman only goes the other way because he knows he couldn't get there that fast by pushing it.
Your "correction" just shows how ignorant and bigoted of businesses you are.
shanedk 1 year ago 3
What does the mob who forces people to pay protection money and the government who forces people to pay taxes have in common? Both won't admit it is extortion when they are doing it.
mrphoo67 1 year ago 10
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mrphoo67 1 year ago
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mrphoo67 1 year ago
HeavyTrafficAhead, your comment went WAY across the line into libel and was deleted. First warning.
shanedk 1 year ago
@shanedk You called me a liar and you have the stones to accuse me of libel? We're done. Take your warning and shove it. Your dissembling dishonest BS has undercut everything else you have done. A quick search has revealed that you do this out of habit. Stick to making science videos, because when it comes to your ideology, you are worse than any Theist. Go ahead and block me now and I will return the favor. Call me a fucking liar again. I fucking dare you, you slanderous little weasel.
HeavyTrafficAhead 1 year ago
@HeavyTrafficAhead Yes, exactly what the fundies say when I have to give one of them a warning. It figures.
shanedk 1 year ago 2
@HeavyTrafficAhead Based on that fact alone and the fact that you willfully ignore it, it would seem that you are the dishonest broker here as well as that charletan, Jeff Tucker. I've read his other sleight of hand BS articles before. He's a joke, just like the rest of you Austrian School mountebanks. It doesn't matter, you're all about to be tossed on the ash heap of history, because nobody is buying your ill conceived drivel of a philosophy after seeing your 'capitalist heroes' in action
HeavyTrafficAhead 1 year ago
@HeavyTrafficAhead So, again, no response to the arguments or the data, only insults of the sources. Pathetic.
shanedk 1 year ago 2
Tried it your way once. It was called the Gilded Age and we had wonderful things like kids dying in coal mines because of no child labor laws, patent medicines that poisoned people because of no Food And Drug Act, economic turbulence because greed heads built houses of cards because of no SEC. I find it ironic that you portray the economist as the one going backwards when it's Libertarians that pine for the 'Good Old Days' that, quite frankly, weren't so good unless you were J.P. Morgan.
HeavyTrafficAhead 1 year ago
@HeavyTrafficAhead More of the bogus, disgusting propaganda that keeps us held back. Check out my videos; ALL of the crap you spew has been long-refuted.
shanedk 1 year ago
@shanedk Really? So there really was no child labor in this country? Patent medicine is the figment of those evils statist liberals? It's all a conspiracy? There was no banking crisis in 1906? All of it propaganda? I don't give a damn what you say in your videos, the fact of the matter is unless you were a wealthy white protestant male in the 19th century (and most of the 20th) life was a big ball of suck. History is not with the Libertarians and the present isn't looking to good either.
HeavyTrafficAhead 1 year ago
@HeavyTrafficAhead Child labor existed throughout history, and was eliminated by the wealth the free market created BEFORE the US government got around to passing any laws against it, as I have shown.
I have also shown how the FDA causes far more deaths than it prevents.
I've also done a lot about the housing crisis, of which you show a profound ignorance.
I've covered the 1907 Banking Crisis, the so-called "robber barons," etc. But you have no response, so all you do is insult.
shanedk 1 year ago 2
@shanedk LOL! Wut? You have got to be kidding me. Child labor was eliminated because of wealth. Are you joking? Oh man this I have to see Let's stick with that premise for now. What the hell is it called? I don't see anything titled that even remotely addresses the subject. I see you have a video that has the usual Libertarian view of the Great Depression that has the same arguments that have been refuted too many times to count. I hope your child labor vid has more game than that
HeavyTrafficAhead 1 year ago
@HeavyTrafficAhead Child labor CANNOT be eliminated ANY OTHER WAY. Here's a better question: how come NO society had EVER eliminated child labor until we had about 100 years of a mostly-free market?
And if you have refutations of my Great Depression video (or any others), post them. Otherwise, you're doing exactly what the creationists do.
shanedk 1 year ago 2
@shanedk What's the title? BTW I would think a rational scientist would know better than to confuse correlation with causation. That's like Bible Thumpers trying to blame everything bad that happened since Torcaso in '61 because the decision eliminated prayer from schools. Let's see if your video has solid evidence that child labor was eliminated because of wealth generation and not government intervention. A link would be nice
HeavyTrafficAhead 1 year ago
@HeavyTrafficAhead I talked about it in several videos; the False Dichotomy was one.
Look at what happens when people try to go into third world countries and stop the child labor there. What happens to the children? Research, then come back and answer.
shanedk 1 year ago
@shanedk Uh uh, you made a positive claim and you even said you talked about it in a video. I asked for the title/link and you're now telling me to do research. It's not my job to do your homework for you. As for accusing me of confusing correlation with causation. There was child labor in this country, there was a campaign to end it by Progressives culminating in the Fair Labor and Standards Act in 1938. Although it should be noted that states had reg child labor before then. Cause-->Effect
HeavyTrafficAhead 1 year ago
@HeavyTrafficAhead Homework Fallacy again. If you want, I can just TELL you what happens to them, but I THOUGHT you might actually want to learn something on your own. Silly me.
What happens is that the children either go into prostitution or starve to death. But I guess that's okay with you, as long as they're not victims of evil capitalists, huh?
Again, the free market had pretty much eliminated child labor by the turn of the century.
shanedk 1 year ago
@shanedk That's not a fallacy. YOU made an extraordinary claim, YOU said you've made a video about, And YOU need to back it up with the evidence. Until then it's an unverified claim and I'll stick to the homework that I have already done, in an obscure field called HISTORY
Until then.....
HeavyTrafficAhead 1 year ago
@HeavyTrafficAhead I HAVE provided evidence. You REFUSE to look at it. And it's NOT an extraordinary claim at all; the extraordinary claim is YOURS, that we can eliminate this just by passing a law.
Here's another source for you to ignore: Google "The Trouble With Child Labor Laws" and read Jeffrey A. Tucker's article. Prediction: you won't, because for you this is about preserving your dogma, not finding out the truth.
shanedk 1 year ago
@shanedk Uh no you haven't until you mentioned that article. You Did NOT give me a title, You did NOT give a link. I've already read that article years ago and does the same thing your doing here. A bunch of opinion, as if it's just letting teens(who can work BTW) fix your computer. Not every teen is a suburban kid hanging out playing XBOx, nor does he say ANYTHING about age limits or working conditions. Heavy on the opinion, light on the facts. About what I'd expect from the Mises site.
HeavyTrafficAhead 1 year ago
@HeavyTrafficAhead So, as I predicted, then. You're nothing but a dogmatist, and there's no point in even TRYING to have a conversation with you. You started out your very first post with ad hominems, well poisoning, strawman, correlation/causation fallacies, and wild accusations, and you went downhill from there.
I'm done.
shanedk 1 year ago
@shanedk Uh no, it doesn't have anything to do with whether I'm a dogmatist or not. It has to do with the fact that so far you haven't provided any conclusive evidence for an extraordinary claim and neither did Tucker. His assumption that ending child labor laws would give those lazy teens some work values is predicated on a very narrow definition of what such a repeal would entail. It also doesn't address that the majority of those teens CAN work with some restrictions. I'm done as well
HeavyTrafficAhead 1 year ago
@HeavyTrafficAhead He cited sources, provided quotes, and demonstrated a logical progression. That's a LOT more than you've done. No, this bursts your dogma way open and you'll have none of it; so you insult sources rather than rebutting them. Pathetic.
shanedk 1 year ago
@HeavyTrafficAhead Oh, and you're a LIAR, too. From the article:
"From the outset, federal law made exceptions for kid movie stars...If you are 14 or 15, you can ask your public school for a waiver...if you are in private school or home school, you must go ask your local Social Service Agency...The legal exemption is also made for delivering newspaper..." etc.
So, when you said he didn't address this, you were either LYING about what he said or you were LYING about having read it. Which is it?
shanedk 1 year ago
@HeavyTrafficAhead Oh, and YOU'RE the one who based everything on correlation/causation.
shanedk 1 year ago
GlobalAlternateMedia has been blocked for being a sockpuppet of GodOfTheInternets. (And for false accusations of bigotry.)
shanedk 1 year ago
GodOfTheInternets has been blocked for calling businessmen murderers. I think I'm going zero tolerance on this one, too.
shanedk 1 year ago
@shanedk
OK, THIS is the comment I just spent several minutes looking for -- The one where you state that GodOfTheInternets is banned for calling businessmen murderers, and state that you think you're going to go zero tolerance on this one as well.
Judging by comments he's left on Stefan's videos where he praises voluntary behavior, it sounds like he's an anarcho-communist; and/or, judging by his channel, a troll.
vspqbd 1 year ago
wow business types are smrter than everyone else qed
gratex 1 year ago
Me think we should privatize the us post office and let it fail. Same thing with NASA privatize it and let it fail.
mrphoo67 1 year ago
@mrphoo67 The only reason NASA would fail as a private entity is because the administrators don't know how to do anything but extract funding from Congress.
As far as spaceflight goes, the only thing NASA has a near-monopoly on is US non-military launches. It isn't actually that hard to build a launch facility, especially if you're already building the rockets. You just need a suitable piece of property and a big wad of cash. There are several companies that do.
evensgrey 1 year ago
@evensgrey That is exactly why I want privatize both nasa and US post office. I am tire government bureaucracy extracting so much money out of congress because they don't know how to succeed of their own. If privatizing nasa the us post office doesn't ruin them their success came without wasted money from the government.
also if nasa is privatize then nasa has more freedom to do what they want.
mrphoo67 1 year ago
@evensgrey I am aware of private organization trying to go to space. Virgin galactic is a perfect example.
mrphoo67 1 year ago
@mrphoo67 And imagine how much further they could get without all of the artificial government limitations in place. So much of their design and research involves finding ways around these restrictions.
shanedk 1 year ago
@shanedk I think you make a video asking is any regulation necessarily. I would be interested in your point of view.
mrphoo67 1 year ago
@mrphoo67 The Post Office failing if privatized would only demonstrate the incompetence of the administrators. After all, look at the numerous private courier companies that make healthy profits, even without extra charges for things like rural delivery. If you aren't government-mandated, you have to delivery what the customer's want.
evensgrey 1 year ago
@mrphoo67 The Post Office failing if privatized would only demonstrate the incompetence of the administrators. After all, look at the numerous private courier companies that make healthy profits, even without extra charges for things like rural delivery. If you aren't government-mandated, you have to delivery what the customer's want.
evensgrey 1 year ago
Do you have any science jokes?
Scoforever 1 year ago
@Scoforever Lots.
Why did the chicken cross the Möbius strip?
To get to the same side.
shanedk 1 year ago 3
@Scoforever Werner Heisenberg is speeding down the freeway and is pulled over by a state trooper. The trooper goes up to Heisenberg and says, "Do you have ANY idea how fast you were going?"
And Heisenberg replies, "Nope--but I know EXACTLY where I am!"
shanedk 1 year ago 5
@shanedk
LOL awesome
Scoforever 1 year ago
Fuck the FCC the first Amendment violators.
Now I am done blurting out my random political frustration to a video that has nothing to do with FCC.
mrphoo67 1 year ago
@mrphoo67 What do you call a yacht full of FCC officials?
A Censor Ship.
There, now it's relevant. ;^)
shanedk 1 year ago
@shanedk What do you call every FCC official at the bottom of the sea?
A job well done.
Virgil0211 1 year ago
@Virgil0211 What do you call Brad Pitt, a potato, and an FCC official?
A stud, a spud, and a dud.
shanedk 1 year ago
@shanedk You have a senator and an FCC official. Which one do you kill first?
The senator. Business before pleasure.
Virgil0211 1 year ago
@Virgil0211 A display in a butcher shop has:
Sheep's brains: $2/pound.
Calf's brains: $3/pound.
Senator's brains: $100/pound.
FCC official's brains: $5,000/pound.
A customer asks how come Senator's brains are so expensive. "Because," replies the butcher, "They've never been used."
"Okay," the customer replies, "but why are the FCC official's brains even more expensive?"
"Well, do you have any idea," the butcher replies, "how many of them we have to kill to get a pound of brains?"
shanedk 1 year ago
@shanedk What's the difference between an FCC official and an onion?
Nobody cries when you slice up an FCC official.
Virgil0211 1 year ago
I don't get the elevator joke. Could you explain it?
calvinhobbesliker2 1 year ago
@calvinhobbesliker2 One big flaw in Keynesian economics is that they don't consider that people will react to a change in policy, changing many variables that policy is based on. In the joke, the Keynesian doesn't expect the Austrian's behavior to change because of the bet and the odds, and loses as a result.
shanedk 1 year ago
@shanedk So the Austrian's behavior changed how exactly?
Also, what exactly is Keynesian economics?
calvinhobbesliker2 1 year ago
@calvinhobbesliker2 Changed from trying to stump him with legitimate puzzles, which he likely would have done, to making up crap that's impossible to answer.
Keynesian economics is the economics that permeates throughout the political system of the US and Europe.
shanedk 1 year ago
@shanedk I'm sure it does, but I'd like to know what its principles are.
calvinhobbesliker2 1 year ago
@calvinhobbesliker2 In 500 characters or less, I'm oversimplifying, but basically if you find yourself in a recession the way to get out of it is to have government spend a whole bunch of money, running up deficits if need be.
shanedk 1 year ago
Oh my lord those joke were terrible - I love em. just my type of joke. lol
Knightyme 1 year ago
Tisk, tisk! Such language!
rebelq1 1 year ago
@rebelq1 No one who tries to paint his political opposition as pedophiles has ANY call to complain about the language others use against him, you worthless piece of scum.
shanedk 1 year ago
@shanedk,
Ooh, my goodness! Potty mouth, please put a sock in it!
SERIOUSLY, NOW !!!
I misunderstood you a little at the beginning! Do you or do you not support mandatory child support laws?
rebelq1 1 year ago
Do you support mandatory child support laws?
rebelq1 1 year ago
@rebelq1 You must be six different kinds of crazy if you think I'm going to answer ANY more questions from you, you lying, quote-mining, abusive sack of shit!
shanedk 1 year ago
You have such wonderful teeth!
TheRealMrPeach 1 year ago
How about this one?
/watch?v=G4S41VFaiSw
mangoswiss 1 year ago
Lol~
It's so funny because you're retarded. :3
HomoCyborgZombie 1 year ago
Light bulb joke, unfortunately, have a tendency to only make sense when you know all the references.
For instance, here's my favorite, and it doesn't make sense unless you know what the OTO is and what kinds of things members do:
How many OTO members does it take to screw in a light bulb?
OTO members don't screw in light bulbs, they screw on the altar!
evensgrey 1 year ago
Q: What's the difference between Republicans and Democrats?
A: Republicans believe in a man who can walk on water. Democrats believe in a fat man who can fly though chimneys.
FlashFizz 1 year ago 3
@Surhotchaperchlorome It's back up and clean now. Thanks!
shanedk 1 year ago
@Surhotchaperchlorome Fixing it. Give me time. Whomever hacked in messed up crap throughout the whole thing.
shanedk 1 year ago
third one was the best
4lifejackhammer 1 year ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
I we can't even agree on the meaning of the word fact, then I really don't see any hope of meaningful discourse.
mjr256 1 year ago