Also, I know Democracy Now has plenty of formats available to dl the show, but it would be nice if they would put everything on yt so they could get bandied about Web 2.0 style with subscribing and favoriting and video sending. They'd probably get censored though.
I've often wondered why DN doesn't have an authorized YT presence. They frequently mention the power of things going viral on YT and their importance - such as the postings related to the recent Oscar Grant shooting.
Yeah yeah I know. But Obama's strategy is to use his grassroots campaign to leverage his presidency. People using something as simple as their facebook status or twitter to alert people to something like this is precisely what's necessary. The Internet is his base - it brought him to power, and ultimately it can take it away.
It just might. Republicans call into Rush Limbaugh and write letters to the editor and somebody manage to make their representatives their bitches on at least a few key issues. Democrats just cry sob and say it's all hopeless and we should either learn to live with Harry Reid and friends or declare the whole system unsalvageable. And it may be, but that doesn't absolve me of my moral responsibility to vote, change my facebook, and write my own letters to the editor for what they're worth.
haha I actually agree, but it sounds funny, right? we've got war criminals for presidents, we should be removing them from the white house, but we're removing them from our facebook
Good points all - I'm certainly not enouraging people to give up, tune out and accept whatever happens. If anything, I'm a bit disheartened that people aren't more serious about protesting. I try ot write a letter/week to one of my reps, and I've resolved to get more involved in local politics this spring or summer, depending on how certain other things in my life work out.
BTW, I though you were being lighthearted in your response, so I just put a response w/out thinking. Good pts, though.
We encourage what we allow. The only way to deter the next right-wing radical admin is to prosecute the last one. To do anything less tacitly legitimizes the illegal activities of the Bush admin as being nothing other than policy options. Options readily available to be revived.
Prosecutions would help to marginalize the far right ideologues who still defend torture. The coalition of religious zealots/imperialist radicals who've been allowed to label themselves conservative belong on the fringe.
I like your first line, it's very succinct and to the point and gets to the heart of why I think all this stuff needs to be dragged out. I don't want anyone, Dem or Rep, to feel like they can torture and get away with it.
I must admit, I struggle w/this issue. I think societal change, without violent impetus, occurs incrementally. If Obama is geniune about bipartisan cooperation in pursuance of policy beneficial to the citizenry, pursuance of war crimes of Bush Administration officials could be counter-productive to the greater good.
A fair point given your frame - I just tend to be more absolutist. I feel the costs of not bringing this stuff out in the open, in the final analysis, are worse.
Look, I realize I am arguing political expediency over principle & I'm aware of the egregious abuses of the Bush Administration. In a perfect world, I'm with you: investigations commence, an informed & engaged citizenry demands accountability, & justice is rendered. However, that scenario is unlikely to manifest but will be perceived as a partisan tit-for-tat, negating the ability to achieve the greater good on a number of important issues. Only my .02
Gotta admit, he's the best puppet so far. I don't know how he could say "If there were clear instances" with a straight face. He has 8 years of clear instances to pick from...
Politically it would be damning to expose in detail what's taken place over the last 8 years, with the US already on shaky ground it's not an entirely insane strategic choice. Immoral yes, but not insane.
Preventing it from ever happening again may be the most we will get out of the new admin.. but it seems pretty moot on the eve of the collapse of our American empire.
I wonder about that. I tend to think this would be an ugly & unpleasant process, but it is still a needed one. The answers to a lot of questions - like "Why do they hate us?" - are at the end of this process.
We will not have sanity until we fully understand the policies that have led us to where we are now.
Nothing will stop the economic face plant, honor and understanding going forward are all that matter at this point.
I'm curious, what do you view as the potential additional costs?
It all depends on the actual severity of what has taken place in those secret prisons. Worst case scenario I think you would see political fallout about 1000 times worse than with the abu ghraib scandal. I think the diplomatic ramifications would be pretty extreme and I'm guessing that the main reason behind this choice to continue concealment is due to the extreme and profoundly disturbing things that went on in those prisons.
But here's the rub - I think we pay the price for what goes on in those prisons regardless, because I think there is no way that those things get buried forever. So there is no amelioration of the negative impact by later responsibility. Also, I think it is impossible for Obama to successfully distance himself from Bush without some reconciliation/admission of guilt. Finally, without an open & honest investigation, I think too much of the bad stuff will stay.
I think you are on to something here neotoy. The fallout to this internationally and domestically would be off the charts. Quite the fubar I would say and not the can of worms our 21 day old President would like to open.
This kind of reminds me of an old proverb: better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.. As applied to this situation: Better to be thought an unforgivable monster than to open your secret prisons to the world and remove all doubt.
You do realize that upon full disclosure it becomes something that all of us living in the US will have to live with. The blood will be on our hands so to speak.
I actually favor full disclosure and prosecution to the full extent of the law. But I disagree that any action either for or against will ensure anything for the future.
Maybe it just forecloses one option, or maybe it changes us as a people. I think we do all have blood on our hands, it's just that some of us don't know/deny it, w/ horrible consequences for governance.
I think of modern Germany, no too far in time from the Nazis but, in my opinion, a completely different place, philosophically, due in large part to an open investigation of its activities during WW2. I think that process, painful though I'm sure it was, changed and improved Germany.
Also, I know Democracy Now has plenty of formats available to dl the show, but it would be nice if they would put everything on yt so they could get bandied about Web 2.0 style with subscribing and favoriting and video sending. They'd probably get censored though.
funkalunatic 3 years ago
I've often wondered why DN doesn't have an authorized YT presence. They frequently mention the power of things going viral on YT and their importance - such as the postings related to the recent Oscar Grant shooting.
FeelFreeToArgue 3 years ago
I just removed Obama from my facebook.
funkalunatic 3 years ago
That'll show him.
FeelFreeToArgue 3 years ago
Yeah yeah I know. But Obama's strategy is to use his grassroots campaign to leverage his presidency. People using something as simple as their facebook status or twitter to alert people to something like this is precisely what's necessary. The Internet is his base - it brought him to power, and ultimately it can take it away.
funkalunatic 3 years ago
that'll show him
Capitalocracy 3 years ago
It just might. Republicans call into Rush Limbaugh and write letters to the editor and somebody manage to make their representatives their bitches on at least a few key issues. Democrats just cry sob and say it's all hopeless and we should either learn to live with Harry Reid and friends or declare the whole system unsalvageable. And it may be, but that doesn't absolve me of my moral responsibility to vote, change my facebook, and write my own letters to the editor for what they're worth.
funkalunatic 3 years ago
haha I actually agree, but it sounds funny, right? we've got war criminals for presidents, we should be removing them from the white house, but we're removing them from our facebook
Capitalocracy 3 years ago
Well, they did get Capone for tax evasion. At a certain point, I guess you have to say "whatever works."
FeelFreeToArgue 3 years ago
Good points all - I'm certainly not enouraging people to give up, tune out and accept whatever happens. If anything, I'm a bit disheartened that people aren't more serious about protesting. I try ot write a letter/week to one of my reps, and I've resolved to get more involved in local politics this spring or summer, depending on how certain other things in my life work out.
BTW, I though you were being lighthearted in your response, so I just put a response w/out thinking. Good pts, though.
FeelFreeToArgue 3 years ago
OH I was being light-hearted, but then I saw an opportunity to be contrarion.
funkalunatic 3 years ago
We encourage what we allow. The only way to deter the next right-wing radical admin is to prosecute the last one. To do anything less tacitly legitimizes the illegal activities of the Bush admin as being nothing other than policy options. Options readily available to be revived.
Prosecutions would help to marginalize the far right ideologues who still defend torture. The coalition of religious zealots/imperialist radicals who've been allowed to label themselves conservative belong on the fringe.
Nutrino2179 3 years ago
I like your first line, it's very succinct and to the point and gets to the heart of why I think all this stuff needs to be dragged out. I don't want anyone, Dem or Rep, to feel like they can torture and get away with it.
FeelFreeToArgue 3 years ago
exactly, it's not enough to "look forward"
Capitalocracy 3 years ago
I do not even pay much attention to political double speak and manipulation anymore. It is all a game.
AzraelsJudgement 3 years ago
Great video.
truthseekr4life 3 years ago
I must admit, I struggle w/this issue. I think societal change, without violent impetus, occurs incrementally. If Obama is geniune about bipartisan cooperation in pursuance of policy beneficial to the citizenry, pursuance of war crimes of Bush Administration officials could be counter-productive to the greater good.
onemanband1963 3 years ago
A fair point given your frame - I just tend to be more absolutist. I feel the costs of not bringing this stuff out in the open, in the final analysis, are worse.
FeelFreeToArgue 3 years ago
Look, I realize I am arguing political expediency over principle & I'm aware of the egregious abuses of the Bush Administration. In a perfect world, I'm with you: investigations commence, an informed & engaged citizenry demands accountability, & justice is rendered. However, that scenario is unlikely to manifest but will be perceived as a partisan tit-for-tat, negating the ability to achieve the greater good on a number of important issues. Only my .02
onemanband1963 3 years ago
jeezuz. what a steaming pile of shit obama is toting.. that must be heavy.
man o man i dont miss my cable.
but i am so glad you share this.
keeps me in understanding of the grand illusion.
poor peeps believe his crap.
got to love democracy now.
she rocks hard..
so does karma.
fckuvrymch 3 years ago
Apparently it is a "state secret" that our politicians are crooks!
magichandpuppet 3 years ago
Gotta admit, he's the best puppet so far. I don't know how he could say "If there were clear instances" with a straight face. He has 8 years of clear instances to pick from...
SkinsDeep 3 years ago 4
Politically it would be damning to expose in detail what's taken place over the last 8 years, with the US already on shaky ground it's not an entirely insane strategic choice. Immoral yes, but not insane.
Preventing it from ever happening again may be the most we will get out of the new admin.. but it seems pretty moot on the eve of the collapse of our American empire.
neotoy 3 years ago
I wonder about that. I tend to think this would be an ugly & unpleasant process, but it is still a needed one. The answers to a lot of questions - like "Why do they hate us?" - are at the end of this process.
We will not have sanity until we fully understand the policies that have led us to where we are now.
Nothing will stop the economic face plant, honor and understanding going forward are all that matter at this point.
I'm curious, what do you view as the potential additional costs?
FeelFreeToArgue 3 years ago
It all depends on the actual severity of what has taken place in those secret prisons. Worst case scenario I think you would see political fallout about 1000 times worse than with the abu ghraib scandal. I think the diplomatic ramifications would be pretty extreme and I'm guessing that the main reason behind this choice to continue concealment is due to the extreme and profoundly disturbing things that went on in those prisons.
neotoy 3 years ago
But here's the rub - I think we pay the price for what goes on in those prisons regardless, because I think there is no way that those things get buried forever. So there is no amelioration of the negative impact by later responsibility. Also, I think it is impossible for Obama to successfully distance himself from Bush without some reconciliation/admission of guilt. Finally, without an open & honest investigation, I think too much of the bad stuff will stay.
FeelFreeToArgue 3 years ago
I think you are on to something here neotoy. The fallout to this internationally and domestically would be off the charts. Quite the fubar I would say and not the can of worms our 21 day old President would like to open.
mconn2112 3 years ago
This kind of reminds me of an old proverb: better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.. As applied to this situation: Better to be thought an unforgivable monster than to open your secret prisons to the world and remove all doubt.
neotoy 3 years ago
Better only for the unforgivable monster only, not those who have to live with it.
funkalunatic 3 years ago
You do realize that upon full disclosure it becomes something that all of us living in the US will have to live with. The blood will be on our hands so to speak.
neotoy 3 years ago
By not prosecuting it sets a precident that will ensure it happens again.
bar730 3 years ago
I actually favor full disclosure and prosecution to the full extent of the law. But I disagree that any action either for or against will ensure anything for the future.
neotoy 3 years ago
Maybe it just forecloses one option, or maybe it changes us as a people. I think we do all have blood on our hands, it's just that some of us don't know/deny it, w/ horrible consequences for governance.
I think of modern Germany, no too far in time from the Nazis but, in my opinion, a completely different place, philosophically, due in large part to an open investigation of its activities during WW2. I think that process, painful though I'm sure it was, changed and improved Germany.
FeelFreeToArgue 3 years ago
all good questions.
Edgrot 3 years ago 2
More of the same.. no suprise there
loxety 3 years ago
no there is a difference........... skin color
OlGreyWolf58 3 years ago 2