Typical of The Old Bill Blunder after Blunder. It was The same in The Yorkshire Ripper case. Unless they're harassing innocent motorists, they are Fucking useless. And as for Bob Booth never in a million years did he solve 70 murders. It was his fault she was killed. A very stupid man
@Bellman467 Irene Neilson gave an interview to the Sunday People in June 1982. She said she visited as regularly as she could but since his move to Parkhurst she had only manged one visit. She said it was difficult because they had to keep rebuilding their relationship and they were always conscious of the prison officer sitting nearby. Two years later in 1984, Neilson was reported as having no visitors, received no letters and was described as a man without life and certainly without hope.
@Bellman467 In 2000, Neilson made an application to the High Court Family Division to contact his daughter. I don't know why but his granddaughter was born in 1985 which would have made her 15 in that year so maybe it was connected to her. The High court action might suggest there had been no contact with his family for some considerable time.
less than 100 yards from the place where the shooting took place, the man crossed towards the hotel but the woman stayed on the opposite side of the road. It was a tantalizing possibility that the kidapper could have had an acomplice.
This wil not fit in one section, please read both.Quote: At About 9.30 p.m on 15 january, about an hour before Gerald Smith was shot, a woman motorist waiting for her husband sat in their car at Trindle Road Dudley. The TTV registered Morris parked directly in front. A man and woman alighted and the waiting woman got the impression that they might have had a row for whereas they both walked down the road towards the Station Hotel, .............
@Bellman467 At Kidsgrove, the police felt that apart from the speculative nature of the sightings Neilson would not have trusted his wife or any other woman with his secrets.
I believe that after Neilson was convicted his thoughts will have been one day i will be free, Surely this is what anny prisoner would dream of. Even if this was not possible in 2008, Neilson applied to the High Court to have his minimum term reverted to 30 years.
@Bellman467 He applied to the High court to have his minimum term reverted to 30 years because that is what judge initially said when he was asked for a figure. He said he meant natural life but if he had to give a figure it would be 30 years. At the trial Gilbert Gray said in mitigation that Neilson knew he would have to go to prison for an inordinately long period of time and that there must await him a very long and very dark period of imprisonment... contd
@Bellman467 He said "there is an old saying that all the darkness in all the world cannot extinguish the light of a single candle. That in the fulness of time this man may have some limited hope to entertain is something which may ensure his sanity and that candle I would ask you not to snuff out by saying life imprisonment should mean life imprisonment and nothing else."
One of the reasons i say Neilson was rebuked by criminals and police is because many killers have conned psychiatrist and the parole boards in the past to be released and re-offend by commiting murder.Also i was told nobody liked Neilson in the prisons he was in, the whittle kidnap being upmost in their minds. I worked with ex-offenders and those who knew of him all said the same.
@Bellman467 I'm sure they didn't like him but he kept to himself and rarely spoke to anyone. He regarded himself as a man apart. He was relentlessly self driven. In Full Sutton his nickname was the Pink Panther because he was so well behaved. He could never have been released, he remained Cat A all the time. He was always regarded as a danger to the public and the state. He was cold and remorseless and just as he could not master the art of being genial when he sold brushes door to door.. contd
@Bellman467 he would not have been able to con a psychiatrist or the parole board. He never expressed or showed any remorse which is obviously the first step in getting ready for release.
Ok Bodaniel, first of all lets respect each others views. We know Neilson was allowed alternate charges, and the jury decided on murder. If i was on the jury i honestly would have found Neilson guilty of murder. The very second he kidnapped Leslie Whittle he became responsible for her future. Maybe i wasnt clear, i dont think he pushed her off the ledge either. Leaving markers so the police find her is a no no, he could have made a call to someone. I cannot rule out Neilsons self preservation
@Bellman467 I agree. He was totally responsible for her welfare and he should at least have sent a dymo tape through the post telling her family or the police where she was. This was the first time he had been in direct contact with a police operation and he was totally scared witless partly by his own fears and phobias and in the end yes, self preservation was what it was all about. He only went out again once when he was so desperate for money he had no choice. I do fully respect your views.
What kind of a man kidnaps a young girl, puts her down a 60ft drain shaft? which ever way she died it was murder no excuses. Then he tries to blame the police????????? Did the police take her from her bed? Did the police put her in the drain? Did the police put a steel noose round her neck that was impossible to remove without the correct spanners? I had a far harsher upbringing than Neilson and so did others, we never killed. People must believe any old bollocks.
@Bellman467 His upbringing is no excuse for what he did. There's no disputing his culpability on everything you say. However, if as you say it was murder with no excuses, why did the judge allow the defence to claim manslaughter and why did he sum up for manslaughter? He did not intend she should die and she only died because of a terrible culmination of circumstances. He genuinely and sincerely believed she had been found alive but sadly he overestimated police efficiency.
Again dont believe everything you read, you really need to do some more research. You seem to be missing some important facts and twisting others to suit.
@Bellman467 With great respect, what important facts am I missing and what am I twisting? I can assure you my research is impeccable, I'm prepared to back up everything I say.
Neilson was laying one big soft story to lessen the blow. This was in the hope he would one day be released.He dug himself a big hole when he kidnapped Leslie Whittle. There is no excuse, no soft story for what that girl had to go through. At the end of the day people close to this case know there is a lot more to it than what came out of Neilsons devious mouth. It cost so much to hunt then prosecute Neilson the authorities were just glad to have him in custody. A criminal that tells the truth?
@Bellman467 A big soft story? What was soft about it? He knew if he was caught he would be locked up for life. He told the truth apart from claiming his post office murders were accidents and that he was there when Lesley Whittle died when he had left her alive days earlier. Planning his possible arrest really just amounted to asking to be represented by the great Barrington,"whatever you've done, he'll get you off," Black.
@Bellman467 Commander Morrison said Neilson was a real professional who catered for every eventuality except one. Being arrested and interrogated. If he had thought about it, he would have stayed silent. Instead, he was so shattered by the experience he spilled the beans and there was no going back. He never had any hope of being released, he remained Cat A until he was rendered immobile by the MND. A criminal that tells the truth? Lying police and conspiracy theorists more like.
You are quoting what you have read Bodaniel so i can agree to a point with what you say. In that context you will know Neilson was seen getting out of the kidnap car with a woman at Dudley just before Smith was shot im not going to make an issue of that fact. I have a different view of Neilson,that is of the devious man he was who tried to plan every eventuality even his capture and defence. His version of his sad life was rebuked by police and other criminals of the time. He was the victim.
@Bellman467 The sighting of a woman was purely speculative. He was not not getting out of his car just before Smith was shot, he had been checking his dymo tapes were in position on the telegraph poles. His so called version of his sad life was not presented by him, it was presented by forensic psychiatrists - one of whom I knew - as mitigation his trial. The police were only concerned with painting as black a picture as possible of him. Rebuked by other criminals, what concern was it of theirs?
Be serious mate, he was at it for many years. Im not saying he had an acomplice on the whittle crime i mean his earlier burglarys. There are crimes he has never been charged with ie hundreds of dwellings plus other post offices. He was probably at it after leaving the army. He was caught shopbreaking when he was 11. Irene neilson was jailed for what she did, looks more like misguided loyalty to me. Im pretty sure the courts took the same view.
@Bellman467 He was never close enough to anyone at any time in his life to share his secrets. He said he enjoyed the freedom of being out at night alone, the fact that nobody was interfering, nobody knew. The shopbreaking at 11 was a reaction to the grief at the death of his mother. Irene knew nothing, when he went out he told her and Kathryn he was preparing for a job. The courts did not take the view of misguided loyalty, the sentence was purely for cashing the postal orders.
During his crime spree Neilson is said to have made around £18'000. Myself and others believe Neilson had an acomplice on some of his crimes. When Neilson was arrested in Mansfield his wife Irene had an idea something was wrong so she started burning stolen postal orders in their fireplace. When the police arrived to search their house they found evidence of this and arrested Irene. She went on to admit cashing over 80 of these at many post offices in various towns and citys.
@Bellman467 There was no accomplice. He chose kidnap because it was the only major crime one man could do on his own. his wife was terrified of him, she wouldn't dare move unless he gave her permission and he regularly beat her during fits of violence. He forced her to cash the postal orders only when publicity about his crimes made it too dangerous for him to do it. She only put two and two together when he didn't come home and she realised or at least suspected he was the Black Panther.
to all furious palls: things have changed since 1975. cooperation between police & press and the agreement to keep silence while police is working on a delicate matter.
Bob Booth, apparently, wasn't well enough to comment on Neilson's demise.... & the Whittle family declined to comment.. They've kept a dignified silence throughout this whole sorry mess..
@Bodaniel7 The Whittle family home, I meant to say.. From what I can make out (Google Maps) it's still there - would be surprised if it has since been pulled down with it being a (possibly listed) 1930s art deco building..
@chabezloujas The pathologist said it was a minimum of 3 days based on how long it takes food to pass through the body but he added it could have been much longer. If you accept Neilson's word that he fed her and the fact that she only weighed 98lbs when found she had lost a considerable amount of weight and was emaciated you can see it was a considerable time. The true reality of what happened to her is quite horrific and desperately sad.
@Bodaniel7 Him pushing her is almost the ''sanitised'' version of events-as she would have died quickly. Was there any uneaten food found in the drainage complex? How did Neilson get back to Bradford? I assume he went to Kidsgrove train station. Also, any idea if Mrs Neilson is still alive-or where his daughter is? I've been through Bathpool on the train-you only get a quick look but you can get a general idea of the layout-and why he chose it.
@MALCBAGGIE You're right, it is almost the sanitised version compared to the horrific reality. As Adam Mars Jones said, vagal inhibition has a lot to be said for it when starvation is the alternative. There was no uneaten food but there was an empty flask and a bottle of brandy found in the subterranean canal along with the sleeping bag and her release clothes - trainers, socks, trousers and a sweater, all much too big for her but he could not have risked acquiring girl's clothes.
@Bodaniel7 There's a Kidsgrove train service from our town (less than an hour) so one day I might visit Bathpool and really get an idea of where everything took place. Have you visited there yourself Bodaniel?
@MALCBAGGIE He walked to the railway station along the canal, joined early morning workers and caught the 6 am train and went home via Halifax. I believe Mrs Neilson is still alive and living in South Yorkshire. I know Neilson made an application through the family courts in 2000 to contact his daughter. I'm not sure why or what the result was, maybe to be allowed to see his grandchildren.
@satanidomini The list of schoolboy puns and taunts were endless and merciless. Nappy rash, dirty nappy, nipper napper, change your nappy. His life was made hell and the taunts imprinted their mark indelibly on the frail young boy. He changed his name shortly before his daughter started school because he felt the child must be spared the tribulations he had suffered. He did not turn to crime as a response, he turned to crime to survive. Your glib comments and pop psychology are sickening.
@Bodaniel7 Many kids in his street had worse upbringings than Neilson's- some lost Dads in the war but never went on to kill-(one became a doctor) and most kids get called names. Watching the Fred Dineage doc last night-some interesting rare photos of Neilson playing ''war games'' with his wife and daughter. Good doc but it mistakenly showed the manhole cover at the dam end of Bathpool. And it never mentioned the shooting of Gerald Smith-which revealed the Black Panther as the kidnapper.
@MALCBAGGIE With great respect, your first sentence is lifted from Valentine's book. He lost his mother when he was just 10 years old and his father hated him, didn't want him but showered love and affection on his sister. Insufficient love in his formative years, a beaten abandoned child fending friendlessly in a world that seemed to offer him nothing - psychiatric assessment. He was totally lethal to anyone who stood in his way and was rightly locked up but he left Lesley alive.
@Bodaniel7 I do have sympathy for little Donald Nappey-and as Neilson when his businesses failed-& he couldn't seem to make any money. I can understand his bitterness towards those who didn't try and got money. I think his admittedly harsh upbringing was an irrelevance-he had a character flaw in that he was evil-that is what created the Panther. Okay, there IS doubt that he pushed Lesley but I believe he knew she was the target as early as 1972. Why did he enter her room first?
@MALCBAGGIE Evil, like psychopathy is a label and unquantifiable. He always said that he believed Lesley was away at school - she certainly was when he first got the kidnap idea in 1972 and when he planned to do it in 1974. Her room was at the top of the stairs so it would be likely to be the first room he entered. Dr Milne interviewed him extremely thoroughly and came to the conclusion that he had genuinely kidnapped the wrong person.
@MALCBAGGIE I do believe his upbringing is relevant. It set him apart and left him unable to relate to or empathise with people. Lesley was the first person to make real contact with him since his mother and this led to him building a friendship of sorts with the couple he was trying to buy a house from in the summer of 1975. Interestingly, some police officers believe he began housebreaking much earlier than he admitted probably shortly after he left the army and I agree with that view.
The following all believed Donald Neilson to be innocent of the murder of Lesley Whittle. The trial judge William Mars Jones, his author son Adam, the author Harry Hawkes, Neilson's defence team - Barrington Black, Norman Jones and Gilbert Gray QC, the consultant psychiatrist Dr Hugo Milne, the examining pathologist, Dr John Hunter Brown and the junior prosecuting counsel Brian Smedley. I'm happy to say I wholly agree with these eminent men.
@Bodaniel7 There is doubt-but he threatened death ''of police or tricks''.-and didn't he write ''death'' on the shaft's manhole lid? I think he pushed her- as the side she went over was too narrow to fall through accidently. I think of his stolen car full of clothes-and he never allowed her to put on a stitch-she must have been freezing. That destroys the ''caring'' kidnapper image. He said her death was an accident- like the Postmasters? As was Mrs. Grayland's battered skull.
@MALCBAGGIE When he put police or tricks death, he did not know it was Lesley he was going to kidnap. If she had been freezing there was a survival blanket within reach - found unopened by the police. The sleeping bag was not flimsy, it was a big heavy warm fleecy one. How did he push her? Did he come down the ladder and somehow scoop her over? She went over in the bag because the pathologist found no injury or marks from the sharp rusty six inch lip around the edge of the platform.
@Bodaniel7 If he had tried to push her, surely she would have resisted, she wouldn't just let herself go willingly, yet there was no sign of a struggle. We know he lied blatantly when he claimed the deaths of the postmasters were accidents. If the charge of attempting to murder Gerald Smith had gone ahead, he had intended to say he had been shooting at a dog and the bullets had accidentally hit Mr Smith - total garbage.
@Bodaniel7 I was never convinced by the Panda car theory pushed in The Heiress & The Kidnapper. But the PC appeared not long after the ransom call to Highley-and ever since Neilson has been described as flying either into a ''rage'' or a ''panic'' You can't be in both. And why would he ''panic'' when all he had to do was stroll out of the park-or escape via the canal tunnel? The emotion from her age, the horrible place and way she died made sure he was always going to be convicted.
@MALCBAGGIE You're right, he was convicted on public opinion. He didn't fly into a rage, he was watching from his mound and things simply got too much for him. He told the police he panicked believing there was a police dog that could hear him - he had a phobia about being tracked by dogs. He was definitely in a panic and not strolling because he fell down when he was running towards the disused railway line, his holdall split open and a load of equipment spilled out which was found later.
@Bodaniel7 IF he didn't push her-how? Maybe the thought of starving in that hell shaft made her die of fright. Maybe she was trying to free herself and fell- or even jumped off on purpose to end her torment. I read her screams were heard on the surface- but it was thought to be children playing. Maybe the murder theory is promoted by the police as it absolves them of failing to search the park-& therefore letting her starve- IF she was still alive the morning after the failed ransom drop.
@MALCBAGGIE Yes, you're right with those possibilities. The police genuinely believed he pushed her but the facts when viewed dispassionately just don't bear it out.
@MALCBAGGIE Consultant forensic psychiatrist Dr Hugo Milne, who interviewed him for 16 hours, said his reactions to questioning about Lesley were very similar to those he exhibited when being questioned about his daughter. This was another barrier to harming her, she undoubtedly had an affinity with his own child. Dr Milne believed implicitly that he did not kill Lesley. His other victims were total strangers whereas he had spent hours with Lesley and she had done everything he asked of her.
@jimpurdie Teased does not begin to cover it. It was relentless, sustained abuse, at school, in the street and in the army. He changed his surname to protect his daughter from having to endure the same thing. He received no help or support from anyone. As the psychiatrist, Dr Philip Cauthery, said, if Neilson is a wicked sinner, he was first sinned against. Ironically, after his arrest, his wife and daughter changed their name back to Nappey to avoid a different kind of notoriety.
@ad8369 A freelance reporter in Kidderminster named Bill Williams received a telephone call from an informant who gave him the basic details. Bill Williams never named the informant. Williams rang Kidderminster police to get confirmation and a superintendent said he had instructions not to say anything. Williams then sent what he knew to the Birmingham Post and the BBC. The BBC then broadcast a newsflash.
@Reip187 Thanks. I just want the truth to come out about this sad case. Neilson is going to die soon, the press will rehash all the falsehoods and the true reality of Lesley Whittle's appalling suffering will be buried forever. I won't go over what I've already written on these forums there's enough already from me there for people to make up their minds about what really happened , I'll just say that she deserved better, both while she was alive in her predicament and after she died.
Bob Booth, like all policemen of his era, was used to dealing with criminals who were fairly stupid and fairly predictable. Neilson was neither. Commander Morrison called him a diabolical genius and said there had never been a one man criminal like him. Booth was totally out of his depth but any policeman would have been at that time. At the trial senior detectives came from all over the country and listened spellbound as Neilson explained how he analysed, anticipated & countered their methods
Bob Booth solved 70 murders ? I wonder how many were domestics where the offenders came gift wrapped by the crime scene evidence ? In my opinion his errors of judgement cost this girl her life.
@FlyingFox1971 Actually an unknown passer by picked up the phone and asked "Who is this?" Neilson immediately rang off. Taking Ron Whittle away from the phone box was a tragic blunder that affected the future course of the whole investigation.
@FlyingFox1971 West Midlands Police were in charge with a few Scotland Yard detectives surreptitiously involved. The ransom instructions meant they had to go over the border into Staffordshire and this caused problems with Staffordshire Police. When Lesley's body was found Staffordshire Police took over and immediately handed the case over to Scotland Yard for financial reasons. The whole case was hampered by different forces being involved and all being secretive about their operations.
@Bodaniel7 I wonder if he deliberately chose WM police knowing they would be completely out of their depth, They are ok at giving out traffic fines etc but anything on this scale would be totally bungled by them which indeed it was.
@FlyingFox1971 He chose the Whittles because of the way Lesley's father abandoned his first wife leaving her in abject poverty. He intended to kidnap Ron or Dorothy. He didn't know anything about West Midlands Police but assumed they and the other police to be much more competent than they were. He genuinely believed there had been a thorough search of the park by the police on the morning after the ransom drop and Lesley had been found alive. Sadly he completely overestimated them.
@Bodaniel7 You seem to have some real in depth knowledge regarding the details of this particular case. Much more than a layman with a passing interest. Would you be willing to indulge me in how you aquired such a good level of knowledge ?
@FlyingFox1971 I'm really just a layman who is extremely well read about every aspect of this case. I've followed it closely since September 1974 when the sub-postmaster Derek Astin was shot. Anyone wanting to know the truth about this case should read Harry Hawkes book The Capture of the Black Panther and Lantern Lecture by Adam Mars Jones the son of the presiding judge at Neilson's trials who acted as the judge's marshall in both trials.
@schlumbucket Agree the vids are great for illustrating just how incompetent the police are and just goes to show that 99% of their prosecutions are fabricated
@teewoods If the press had not released the story and followed it up by turning out in force to harass Ron Whittle while he was waiting outside the phone boxes in Kidderminster Bob Booth would not have made the catastrophic decision to abandon the wait early. The press have to shoulder a heavy responsibility for how things turned out because of their extremely cavalier attitude in riding roughshod over a delicate police operation. No-one but the Whittles comes out of this case with any credit.
Typical of The Old Bill Blunder after Blunder. It was The same in The Yorkshire Ripper case. Unless they're harassing innocent motorists, they are Fucking useless. And as for Bob Booth never in a million years did he solve 70 murders. It was his fault she was killed. A very stupid man
Carpetlay1 5 days ago
Thanks for that Bodaniel, do you know if Neilson had regular visits the whole time he was in prison?
Bellman467 1 week ago
@Bellman467 Irene Neilson gave an interview to the Sunday People in June 1982. She said she visited as regularly as she could but since his move to Parkhurst she had only manged one visit. She said it was difficult because they had to keep rebuilding their relationship and they were always conscious of the prison officer sitting nearby. Two years later in 1984, Neilson was reported as having no visitors, received no letters and was described as a man without life and certainly without hope.
Bodaniel7 1 week ago
@Bellman467 In 2000, Neilson made an application to the High Court Family Division to contact his daughter. I don't know why but his granddaughter was born in 1985 which would have made her 15 in that year so maybe it was connected to her. The High court action might suggest there had been no contact with his family for some considerable time.
Bodaniel7 1 week ago
@Bodaniel7 Thanks again, looks like on the face of it he lost everything family wise,
Bellman467 1 week ago
less than 100 yards from the place where the shooting took place, the man crossed towards the hotel but the woman stayed on the opposite side of the road. It was a tantalizing possibility that the kidapper could have had an acomplice.
Bellman467 1 week ago
This wil not fit in one section, please read both.Quote: At About 9.30 p.m on 15 january, about an hour before Gerald Smith was shot, a woman motorist waiting for her husband sat in their car at Trindle Road Dudley. The TTV registered Morris parked directly in front. A man and woman alighted and the waiting woman got the impression that they might have had a row for whereas they both walked down the road towards the Station Hotel, .............
Bellman467 1 week ago
@Bellman467 At Kidsgrove, the police felt that apart from the speculative nature of the sightings Neilson would not have trusted his wife or any other woman with his secrets.
Bodaniel7 1 week ago
I believe that after Neilson was convicted his thoughts will have been one day i will be free, Surely this is what anny prisoner would dream of. Even if this was not possible in 2008, Neilson applied to the High Court to have his minimum term reverted to 30 years.
Bellman467 1 week ago
@Bellman467 He applied to the High court to have his minimum term reverted to 30 years because that is what judge initially said when he was asked for a figure. He said he meant natural life but if he had to give a figure it would be 30 years. At the trial Gilbert Gray said in mitigation that Neilson knew he would have to go to prison for an inordinately long period of time and that there must await him a very long and very dark period of imprisonment... contd
Bodaniel7 1 week ago
@Bellman467 He said "there is an old saying that all the darkness in all the world cannot extinguish the light of a single candle. That in the fulness of time this man may have some limited hope to entertain is something which may ensure his sanity and that candle I would ask you not to snuff out by saying life imprisonment should mean life imprisonment and nothing else."
Bodaniel7 1 week ago
One of the reasons i say Neilson was rebuked by criminals and police is because many killers have conned psychiatrist and the parole boards in the past to be released and re-offend by commiting murder.Also i was told nobody liked Neilson in the prisons he was in, the whittle kidnap being upmost in their minds. I worked with ex-offenders and those who knew of him all said the same.
Bellman467 1 week ago
@Bellman467 I'm sure they didn't like him but he kept to himself and rarely spoke to anyone. He regarded himself as a man apart. He was relentlessly self driven. In Full Sutton his nickname was the Pink Panther because he was so well behaved. He could never have been released, he remained Cat A all the time. He was always regarded as a danger to the public and the state. He was cold and remorseless and just as he could not master the art of being genial when he sold brushes door to door.. contd
Bodaniel7 1 week ago
@Bellman467 he would not have been able to con a psychiatrist or the parole board. He never expressed or showed any remorse which is obviously the first step in getting ready for release.
Bodaniel7 1 week ago
Ok Bodaniel, first of all lets respect each others views. We know Neilson was allowed alternate charges, and the jury decided on murder. If i was on the jury i honestly would have found Neilson guilty of murder. The very second he kidnapped Leslie Whittle he became responsible for her future. Maybe i wasnt clear, i dont think he pushed her off the ledge either. Leaving markers so the police find her is a no no, he could have made a call to someone. I cannot rule out Neilsons self preservation
Bellman467 1 week ago
@Bellman467 I agree. He was totally responsible for her welfare and he should at least have sent a dymo tape through the post telling her family or the police where she was. This was the first time he had been in direct contact with a police operation and he was totally scared witless partly by his own fears and phobias and in the end yes, self preservation was what it was all about. He only went out again once when he was so desperate for money he had no choice. I do fully respect your views.
Bodaniel7 1 week ago
What kind of a man kidnaps a young girl, puts her down a 60ft drain shaft? which ever way she died it was murder no excuses. Then he tries to blame the police????????? Did the police take her from her bed? Did the police put her in the drain? Did the police put a steel noose round her neck that was impossible to remove without the correct spanners? I had a far harsher upbringing than Neilson and so did others, we never killed. People must believe any old bollocks.
Bellman467 2 weeks ago
@Bellman467 His upbringing is no excuse for what he did. There's no disputing his culpability on everything you say. However, if as you say it was murder with no excuses, why did the judge allow the defence to claim manslaughter and why did he sum up for manslaughter? He did not intend she should die and she only died because of a terrible culmination of circumstances. He genuinely and sincerely believed she had been found alive but sadly he overestimated police efficiency.
Bodaniel7 1 week ago
Again dont believe everything you read, you really need to do some more research. You seem to be missing some important facts and twisting others to suit.
Bellman467 2 weeks ago
@Bellman467 With great respect, what important facts am I missing and what am I twisting? I can assure you my research is impeccable, I'm prepared to back up everything I say.
Bodaniel7 2 weeks ago
Neilson was laying one big soft story to lessen the blow. This was in the hope he would one day be released.He dug himself a big hole when he kidnapped Leslie Whittle. There is no excuse, no soft story for what that girl had to go through. At the end of the day people close to this case know there is a lot more to it than what came out of Neilsons devious mouth. It cost so much to hunt then prosecute Neilson the authorities were just glad to have him in custody. A criminal that tells the truth?
Bellman467 2 weeks ago
@Bellman467 A big soft story? What was soft about it? He knew if he was caught he would be locked up for life. He told the truth apart from claiming his post office murders were accidents and that he was there when Lesley Whittle died when he had left her alive days earlier. Planning his possible arrest really just amounted to asking to be represented by the great Barrington,"whatever you've done, he'll get you off," Black.
Bodaniel7 2 weeks ago
@Bellman467 Commander Morrison said Neilson was a real professional who catered for every eventuality except one. Being arrested and interrogated. If he had thought about it, he would have stayed silent. Instead, he was so shattered by the experience he spilled the beans and there was no going back. He never had any hope of being released, he remained Cat A until he was rendered immobile by the MND. A criminal that tells the truth? Lying police and conspiracy theorists more like.
Bodaniel7 2 weeks ago
You are quoting what you have read Bodaniel so i can agree to a point with what you say. In that context you will know Neilson was seen getting out of the kidnap car with a woman at Dudley just before Smith was shot im not going to make an issue of that fact. I have a different view of Neilson,that is of the devious man he was who tried to plan every eventuality even his capture and defence. His version of his sad life was rebuked by police and other criminals of the time. He was the victim.
Bellman467 2 weeks ago
@Bellman467 The sighting of a woman was purely speculative. He was not not getting out of his car just before Smith was shot, he had been checking his dymo tapes were in position on the telegraph poles. His so called version of his sad life was not presented by him, it was presented by forensic psychiatrists - one of whom I knew - as mitigation his trial. The police were only concerned with painting as black a picture as possible of him. Rebuked by other criminals, what concern was it of theirs?
Bodaniel7 2 weeks ago
Be serious mate, he was at it for many years. Im not saying he had an acomplice on the whittle crime i mean his earlier burglarys. There are crimes he has never been charged with ie hundreds of dwellings plus other post offices. He was probably at it after leaving the army. He was caught shopbreaking when he was 11. Irene neilson was jailed for what she did, looks more like misguided loyalty to me. Im pretty sure the courts took the same view.
Bellman467 2 weeks ago
@Bellman467 He was never close enough to anyone at any time in his life to share his secrets. He said he enjoyed the freedom of being out at night alone, the fact that nobody was interfering, nobody knew. The shopbreaking at 11 was a reaction to the grief at the death of his mother. Irene knew nothing, when he went out he told her and Kathryn he was preparing for a job. The courts did not take the view of misguided loyalty, the sentence was purely for cashing the postal orders.
Bodaniel7 2 weeks ago
During his crime spree Neilson is said to have made around £18'000. Myself and others believe Neilson had an acomplice on some of his crimes. When Neilson was arrested in Mansfield his wife Irene had an idea something was wrong so she started burning stolen postal orders in their fireplace. When the police arrived to search their house they found evidence of this and arrested Irene. She went on to admit cashing over 80 of these at many post offices in various towns and citys.
Bellman467 2 weeks ago
@Bellman467 There was no accomplice. He chose kidnap because it was the only major crime one man could do on his own. his wife was terrified of him, she wouldn't dare move unless he gave her permission and he regularly beat her during fits of violence. He forced her to cash the postal orders only when publicity about his crimes made it too dangerous for him to do it. She only put two and two together when he didn't come home and she realised or at least suspected he was the Black Panther.
Bodaniel7 2 weeks ago
to all furious palls: things have changed since 1975. cooperation between police & press and the agreement to keep silence while police is working on a delicate matter.
NIROYAK 1 month ago
Bob Booth, apparently, wasn't well enough to comment on Neilson's demise.... & the Whittle family declined to comment.. They've kept a dignified silence throughout this whole sorry mess..
chabezloujas 2 months ago
Is the 1930s family home still there, anyone know?
chabezloujas 2 months ago
@chabezloujas No. It was pulled down as part of a slum clearance and the site is now a car park off Morley's main shopping street.
Bodaniel7 2 months ago
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chabezloujas 2 months ago
@Bodaniel7 The Whittle family home, I meant to say.. From what I can make out (Google Maps) it's still there - would be surprised if it has since been pulled down with it being a (possibly listed) 1930s art deco building..
chabezloujas 2 months ago
@chabezloujas My apologies! Yes, the Whittle family home is still in Highley but it's not owned by them anymore. Dorothy Whittle died in 1988.
Bodaniel7 2 months ago
When poor Lesley was eventually discovered, how long had she gone without food, anyone know?
chabezloujas 2 months ago
@chabezloujas The pathologist said it was a minimum of 3 days based on how long it takes food to pass through the body but he added it could have been much longer. If you accept Neilson's word that he fed her and the fact that she only weighed 98lbs when found she had lost a considerable amount of weight and was emaciated you can see it was a considerable time. The true reality of what happened to her is quite horrific and desperately sad.
Bodaniel7 2 months ago
@Bodaniel7 Him pushing her is almost the ''sanitised'' version of events-as she would have died quickly. Was there any uneaten food found in the drainage complex? How did Neilson get back to Bradford? I assume he went to Kidsgrove train station. Also, any idea if Mrs Neilson is still alive-or where his daughter is? I've been through Bathpool on the train-you only get a quick look but you can get a general idea of the layout-and why he chose it.
MALCBAGGIE 2 months ago
@MALCBAGGIE You're right, it is almost the sanitised version compared to the horrific reality. As Adam Mars Jones said, vagal inhibition has a lot to be said for it when starvation is the alternative. There was no uneaten food but there was an empty flask and a bottle of brandy found in the subterranean canal along with the sleeping bag and her release clothes - trainers, socks, trousers and a sweater, all much too big for her but he could not have risked acquiring girl's clothes.
Bodaniel7 2 months ago
@Bodaniel7 There's a Kidsgrove train service from our town (less than an hour) so one day I might visit Bathpool and really get an idea of where everything took place. Have you visited there yourself Bodaniel?
MALCBAGGIE 2 months ago
@MALCBAGGIE He walked to the railway station along the canal, joined early morning workers and caught the 6 am train and went home via Halifax. I believe Mrs Neilson is still alive and living in South Yorkshire. I know Neilson made an application through the family courts in 2000 to contact his daughter. I'm not sure why or what the result was, maybe to be allowed to see his grandchildren.
Bodaniel7 2 months ago
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chabezloujas 2 months ago
A Slow Painful death for Neilson, just what he deserved, rot in hell !
marcofstoke 2 months ago
@satanidomini The list of schoolboy puns and taunts were endless and merciless. Nappy rash, dirty nappy, nipper napper, change your nappy. His life was made hell and the taunts imprinted their mark indelibly on the frail young boy. He changed his name shortly before his daughter started school because he felt the child must be spared the tribulations he had suffered. He did not turn to crime as a response, he turned to crime to survive. Your glib comments and pop psychology are sickening.
Bodaniel7 2 months ago
@Bodaniel7 Many kids in his street had worse upbringings than Neilson's- some lost Dads in the war but never went on to kill-(one became a doctor) and most kids get called names. Watching the Fred Dineage doc last night-some interesting rare photos of Neilson playing ''war games'' with his wife and daughter. Good doc but it mistakenly showed the manhole cover at the dam end of Bathpool. And it never mentioned the shooting of Gerald Smith-which revealed the Black Panther as the kidnapper.
MALCBAGGIE 2 months ago
@MALCBAGGIE With great respect, your first sentence is lifted from Valentine's book. He lost his mother when he was just 10 years old and his father hated him, didn't want him but showered love and affection on his sister. Insufficient love in his formative years, a beaten abandoned child fending friendlessly in a world that seemed to offer him nothing - psychiatric assessment. He was totally lethal to anyone who stood in his way and was rightly locked up but he left Lesley alive.
Bodaniel7 2 months ago
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chabezloujas 2 months ago
@Bodaniel7 Interesting, you seem to know a lot about this horrible case, I remember it as a six year old, obviously a big news story..
chabezloujas 2 months ago
@Bodaniel7 I do have sympathy for little Donald Nappey-and as Neilson when his businesses failed-& he couldn't seem to make any money. I can understand his bitterness towards those who didn't try and got money. I think his admittedly harsh upbringing was an irrelevance-he had a character flaw in that he was evil-that is what created the Panther. Okay, there IS doubt that he pushed Lesley but I believe he knew she was the target as early as 1972. Why did he enter her room first?
MALCBAGGIE 2 months ago
@MALCBAGGIE Evil, like psychopathy is a label and unquantifiable. He always said that he believed Lesley was away at school - she certainly was when he first got the kidnap idea in 1972 and when he planned to do it in 1974. Her room was at the top of the stairs so it would be likely to be the first room he entered. Dr Milne interviewed him extremely thoroughly and came to the conclusion that he had genuinely kidnapped the wrong person.
Bodaniel7 2 months ago
@MALCBAGGIE I do believe his upbringing is relevant. It set him apart and left him unable to relate to or empathise with people. Lesley was the first person to make real contact with him since his mother and this led to him building a friendship of sorts with the couple he was trying to buy a house from in the summer of 1975. Interestingly, some police officers believe he began housebreaking much earlier than he admitted probably shortly after he left the army and I agree with that view.
Bodaniel7 2 months ago
I hope he rots in hell for eternity the dirty filthy monstrous bastard
BRUTUALTRUTH 2 months ago 2
Poor Lesley, she wasn't served well by the press or the police.
shrivel1 2 months ago
The following all believed Donald Neilson to be innocent of the murder of Lesley Whittle. The trial judge William Mars Jones, his author son Adam, the author Harry Hawkes, Neilson's defence team - Barrington Black, Norman Jones and Gilbert Gray QC, the consultant psychiatrist Dr Hugo Milne, the examining pathologist, Dr John Hunter Brown and the junior prosecuting counsel Brian Smedley. I'm happy to say I wholly agree with these eminent men.
Bodaniel7 2 months ago
@Bodaniel7 There is doubt-but he threatened death ''of police or tricks''.-and didn't he write ''death'' on the shaft's manhole lid? I think he pushed her- as the side she went over was too narrow to fall through accidently. I think of his stolen car full of clothes-and he never allowed her to put on a stitch-she must have been freezing. That destroys the ''caring'' kidnapper image. He said her death was an accident- like the Postmasters? As was Mrs. Grayland's battered skull.
MALCBAGGIE 2 months ago
@MALCBAGGIE When he put police or tricks death, he did not know it was Lesley he was going to kidnap. If she had been freezing there was a survival blanket within reach - found unopened by the police. The sleeping bag was not flimsy, it was a big heavy warm fleecy one. How did he push her? Did he come down the ladder and somehow scoop her over? She went over in the bag because the pathologist found no injury or marks from the sharp rusty six inch lip around the edge of the platform.
Bodaniel7 2 months ago
@Bodaniel7 If he had tried to push her, surely she would have resisted, she wouldn't just let herself go willingly, yet there was no sign of a struggle. We know he lied blatantly when he claimed the deaths of the postmasters were accidents. If the charge of attempting to murder Gerald Smith had gone ahead, he had intended to say he had been shooting at a dog and the bullets had accidentally hit Mr Smith - total garbage.
Bodaniel7 2 months ago
@Bodaniel7 I was never convinced by the Panda car theory pushed in The Heiress & The Kidnapper. But the PC appeared not long after the ransom call to Highley-and ever since Neilson has been described as flying either into a ''rage'' or a ''panic'' You can't be in both. And why would he ''panic'' when all he had to do was stroll out of the park-or escape via the canal tunnel? The emotion from her age, the horrible place and way she died made sure he was always going to be convicted.
MALCBAGGIE 2 months ago
@MALCBAGGIE You're right, he was convicted on public opinion. He didn't fly into a rage, he was watching from his mound and things simply got too much for him. He told the police he panicked believing there was a police dog that could hear him - he had a phobia about being tracked by dogs. He was definitely in a panic and not strolling because he fell down when he was running towards the disused railway line, his holdall split open and a load of equipment spilled out which was found later.
Bodaniel7 2 months ago
@Bodaniel7 IF he didn't push her-how? Maybe the thought of starving in that hell shaft made her die of fright. Maybe she was trying to free herself and fell- or even jumped off on purpose to end her torment. I read her screams were heard on the surface- but it was thought to be children playing. Maybe the murder theory is promoted by the police as it absolves them of failing to search the park-& therefore letting her starve- IF she was still alive the morning after the failed ransom drop.
MALCBAGGIE 2 months ago
@MALCBAGGIE Yes, you're right with those possibilities. The police genuinely believed he pushed her but the facts when viewed dispassionately just don't bear it out.
Bodaniel7 2 months ago
@MALCBAGGIE Consultant forensic psychiatrist Dr Hugo Milne, who interviewed him for 16 hours, said his reactions to questioning about Lesley were very similar to those he exhibited when being questioned about his daughter. This was another barrier to harming her, she undoubtedly had an affinity with his own child. Dr Milne believed implicitly that he did not kill Lesley. His other victims were total strangers whereas he had spent hours with Lesley and she had done everything he asked of her.
Bodaniel7 2 months ago
Funeral is Monday week at St Lukes Bradford, all welcome for drinks at wake after service!
JesusChristisfake 2 months ago
Funeral is Monday week at St Lukes Bradford, all welcome after service for drinks at wake!
JesusChristisfake 2 months ago
YAY HES JUST DIED!!! :-)
steveos111 2 months ago
Good riddance to bad rubbish.... hell has a new inmate...
blackcountryme 2 months ago
Died on Sunday
JesusChristisfake 2 months ago
Donald Neilson died today
MichaelSarkizzian 2 months ago
he changed his name 2 neilson as he was originally called nappey and he got teased at school.
jimpurdie 2 months ago
@jimpurdie Teased does not begin to cover it. It was relentless, sustained abuse, at school, in the street and in the army. He changed his surname to protect his daughter from having to endure the same thing. He received no help or support from anyone. As the psychiatrist, Dr Philip Cauthery, said, if Neilson is a wicked sinner, he was first sinned against. Ironically, after his arrest, his wife and daughter changed their name back to Nappey to avoid a different kind of notoriety.
Bodaniel7 2 months ago
Wow!!!!!!!!!Gross incompetence by the police and the actions of the press is unforgiveable.
brotha3000 4 months ago
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doctorzais1 6 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
thumbs up if you like Real Crime: The Heiress & the Kidnapper Part 1
sexykatie90 8 months ago
fuck the press... they ruin everything
lalea72pop 8 months ago
but who inform the press of the kidnapping?
ad8369 8 months ago
@ad8369 A freelance reporter in Kidderminster named Bill Williams received a telephone call from an informant who gave him the basic details. Bill Williams never named the informant. Williams rang Kidderminster police to get confirmation and a superintendent said he had instructions not to say anything. Williams then sent what he knew to the Birmingham Post and the BBC. The BBC then broadcast a newsflash.
Bodaniel7 8 months ago
@Bodaniel7 Great background info on this. Real interesting to read and watch.
Reip187 8 months ago
@Reip187 Thanks. I just want the truth to come out about this sad case. Neilson is going to die soon, the press will rehash all the falsehoods and the true reality of Lesley Whittle's appalling suffering will be buried forever. I won't go over what I've already written on these forums there's enough already from me there for people to make up their minds about what really happened , I'll just say that she deserved better, both while she was alive in her predicament and after she died.
Bodaniel7 8 months ago
Bob Booth, like all policemen of his era, was used to dealing with criminals who were fairly stupid and fairly predictable. Neilson was neither. Commander Morrison called him a diabolical genius and said there had never been a one man criminal like him. Booth was totally out of his depth but any policeman would have been at that time. At the trial senior detectives came from all over the country and listened spellbound as Neilson explained how he analysed, anticipated & countered their methods
Bodaniel7 8 months ago
Bob Booth solved 70 murders ? I wonder how many were domestics where the offenders came gift wrapped by the crime scene evidence ? In my opinion his errors of judgement cost this girl her life.
FlyingFox1971 8 months ago
2 words: Keystone Cops
Bewitchd1 9 months ago
god damned police! oh you screwed up... and now the girl is dead.. Youll get 'em next time chaps!! AHHHG!
bimbo0618 9 months ago
no-one answered the call omg !!
FlyingFox1971 9 months ago
@FlyingFox1971 Actually an unknown passer by picked up the phone and asked "Who is this?" Neilson immediately rang off. Taking Ron Whittle away from the phone box was a tragic blunder that affected the future course of the whole investigation.
Bodaniel7 9 months ago
@Bodaniel7 was West Midlands police in charge of the operation ?
FlyingFox1971 9 months ago
@FlyingFox1971 West Midlands Police were in charge with a few Scotland Yard detectives surreptitiously involved. The ransom instructions meant they had to go over the border into Staffordshire and this caused problems with Staffordshire Police. When Lesley's body was found Staffordshire Police took over and immediately handed the case over to Scotland Yard for financial reasons. The whole case was hampered by different forces being involved and all being secretive about their operations.
Bodaniel7 9 months ago
@Bodaniel7 I wonder if he deliberately chose WM police knowing they would be completely out of their depth, They are ok at giving out traffic fines etc but anything on this scale would be totally bungled by them which indeed it was.
FlyingFox1971 9 months ago
@FlyingFox1971 He chose the Whittles because of the way Lesley's father abandoned his first wife leaving her in abject poverty. He intended to kidnap Ron or Dorothy. He didn't know anything about West Midlands Police but assumed they and the other police to be much more competent than they were. He genuinely believed there had been a thorough search of the park by the police on the morning after the ransom drop and Lesley had been found alive. Sadly he completely overestimated them.
Bodaniel7 9 months ago
@Bodaniel7 You seem to have some real in depth knowledge regarding the details of this particular case. Much more than a layman with a passing interest. Would you be willing to indulge me in how you aquired such a good level of knowledge ?
FlyingFox1971 9 months ago
@FlyingFox1971 I'm really just a layman who is extremely well read about every aspect of this case. I've followed it closely since September 1974 when the sub-postmaster Derek Astin was shot. Anyone wanting to know the truth about this case should read Harry Hawkes book The Capture of the Black Panther and Lantern Lecture by Adam Mars Jones the son of the presiding judge at Neilson's trials who acted as the judge's marshall in both trials.
Bodaniel7 9 months ago
neilson was purdy clever..............
24zingo 9 months ago
WOOOOOOOWWWWWW MORONS.
gagesmommy2188 1 year ago
Stupid fucking police!
schlumbucket 1 year ago 7
@schlumbucket Agree the vids are great for illustrating just how incompetent the police are and just goes to show that 99% of their prosecutions are fabricated
newworldodour 3 months ago
The Press are idiots.
MrAndrewGCGibson 1 year ago 30
@MrAndrewGCGibson
Why blame the press? Blame the stupid police who were incompetent and showed how pathetic they always get things wrong
teewoods 7 months ago
@teewoods If the press had not released the story and followed it up by turning out in force to harass Ron Whittle while he was waiting outside the phone boxes in Kidderminster Bob Booth would not have made the catastrophic decision to abandon the wait early. The press have to shoulder a heavy responsibility for how things turned out because of their extremely cavalier attitude in riding roughshod over a delicate police operation. No-one but the Whittles comes out of this case with any credit.
Bodaniel7 7 months ago 2