The Isaiah Scroll - Part 2 of 2 - Isaiah 9:6

[GeneralHanSolo]

Mighty God (El-Gibbor). Obviously never used of a mere man.

Eternal Father (Avi-Ad). Literally: 'Father of Eternity'. The Son who is to be born will be the Father of Eternity, meaning that he is the source of eternal life. Clearly this is to be no mere man.

Prince of Peace (Sar-Shalom). This is the only one of the four names which can be used of man and God.

[GeneralHanSolo]

Wonderful Counselor (Pele-Yoeitz). The word 'wonderful' is in the construct state and should be taken together with 'counselor'. There are words in Hebrew which are used only of God and never of men. One example is barah, 'to create'. This is used only of what God does. Never used of what man does. Another word like this is 'pele', rendered here in English as 'wonderful'. In English, 'wonderful' may be freely used of many things, but in Hebrew it is reserved exclusively for that which is divine.

[conraddoavil]

I'm a christian, and I'm all for being textually accurate, but Jews slap down every Messiah prophecy out there? You seem to be smart with this kind of stuff, what is the messiah supposed to be like then? why wasn't Jesus good enough?

[MrSuperEman]

so it's not Mighty God?  just mighty one? So God isn't in that verse? or can Mighty One (can be God or Warrior?)

[ancienthebreworg]

@MrSuperEman In my opinion this verse is not about God or Yeshua (Jesus).

[oO0Briggs0Oo]

@ancienthebreworg Well then in your opinion who is it about?

[oO0Briggs0Oo]

@ancienthebreworg In your opinion who is this verse about?

[ancienthebreworg]

@oO0Briggs0Oo A son born to Ahaz, if memory serves me correctly.

[SteveeB41]

Mr Benner, Along the lines of what the LXX has, would you say that this verse could be translated: "Wonderful in Counsel with Strength and Might, Father and Everlasting Prince of Peace." PELE-wonderful/wonder YO'ETZ-counsel/counselor EL-strength/strong GIBBOR-might/mighty AV-father (like Avra'am?) YAD-and everlasting SAR-prince SHALOM-peace/fullness As there were no seperations of words in original Hebrew, the YOD could have been transferred to AV instead of AD, possibly?

[ancienthebreworg]

@SteveeB41 "Wonderful in Counsel" would have to be "pele b'yo'eyts" or "pele iym yo'ets." I have heard many times that Hebrew was not written with spaces between the words, but to be honest I have never seen an example of this. The oldest Hebrew writings that have ever been found, which date to about 1,000 BC have spaces, or more frequently dots, and even other Semitic writings that date to 2,000 BC have spaces. Continued...

[ancienthebreworg]

@ancienthebreworg Continued... Even if the yud were moved over to the "ad," y'ad is not a Biblical Hebrew word. Besides, this still would not mean everlasting as there is no Hebrew word meaning everlasting.

[SteveeB41]

@ancienthebreworg L) (יעד YAhD) ac: Meet co: Appointment; An appointed place, time or event that is repeated such as the monthly and yearly feasts.  ( עד AhD) I. Witness: II. Again: A REPETITION OF TIME either definite or INDEFINITE. [Hebrew and Aramaic] III. Until: A determinate period of time. [freq. 269] |kjv: witness, EVER, EVERLASTING, end, EVERMORE, old, PERPETUALLY, by, as, when, how, yet, till, until, unto, for, to, but, on, within, filthy. [[ This is from AHLB 5703 ]] emphesis mine

[OKandNOWwhat]

"The MIGHTY GOD is planning grace; the ETERNAL FATHER, a peaceable ruler"

Jewish Publication Society Tanakh translation

[Yahshammah]

EXCELLENT!

[speedstick77]

Thank you for sharing! This is a real eye opener. I suspect that a thousand years hence the controversies over Hebrew, Latin, & Greek texts will still be raging with no resolution. Sibling rivalry among God's children is such great fun.

[4Romans8]

YeshaYaHU 9:6 ... kiy yeled yalad Ben nathan misrah al shekem Shem haYaH qara pele ya'ats gibbor El ad Ab Sar shalom.

Assuredly an offspring born, a Son given an Empire upon His neck. Name of HaYaH calls out a miracle, to advise. Powerful El, perpetual Father, Head of shalom.

A Son born, given a kingdom upon Him. The Authority of HaYaH (I AM) proclaims this Miracle to take advice from the Mighty El, Eternal Father, Head of Shalom.

Messiah Son born to help Father. Hâlal YaHUaH !

[ancienthebreworg]

@4Romans8 Thank you for your interpretation of this verse. I just wanted to be sure that you are aware that the Hebrew words you have written are only their base words (missing all prefixes and suffixes) and not in correct order? For example you have "HaYaH calls out a miracle" but this translation is not grammatically possible as the verb HaYaH comes before the word misrah in the Hebrew, and it is not just HaYaH, but vataHY meaning "and she will be."

[theruteger]

Aviy Ad was translated by the Early Christians as "Father of the coming age"

[ancienthebreworg]

That is interesting and does make better sense as Ad literally means something that comes again.

[straygypsy]

WOW! You mean Christians altered scripture for their own agenda??

That just can't be!

*yawn*

[tomopotamus]

@straygypsy No, he was saying that the KJV translators didn't translate the verse as accurately as they could have.

[straygypsy]

@tomopotamus GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE­!

YA THIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII­IIIIIIIIIIIIINK?

[tomopotamus]

@straygypsy Well, yes, that's what I think. To say that it wasn't translated as well as it could have been hardly means that they've "altered" Scripture for their purposes.

[straygypsy]

@tomopotamus Oh I see. So it was all just a coincidence?

Interesting how the scriptures just happened to be....

[drum roll please]

..."mistranslated"..into being custom made to fit into the pagan Horus (aka xtianity) agenda.

How convenient your religion is. I am very impressed....

[tomopotamus]

@straygypsy I didn't say that this verse was mistranslated. I just point out what the maker of the video said, that the verse isn't translated as good as it could be.

The whole Horus equals Christ thing is humorous to me.

[straygypsy]

@tomopotamus Yes I agree..I find it extremely humorous that the majority of the people in the world aren't intelligent enough to know that their religion is nothing more than Horus, Tammuz, HareKrishna, Mythra under a new name.

Yes..very humorous indeed!!!!

[theruteger]

If El Gibor is two nouns is the translation "God Hero" possible?

[ancienthebreworg]

When two nouns are put together (in Hebrew), they are in the construct state. In English we identify constructs with the word "of" such as in "spirit of God." In Hebrew there is no "of" so it is written as "ruach elohiym." If El Gibor are two nouns, then they are in the construct state and should be translated as "god of gibor" or "might one of gibor." (The word El is often translated as "god" but more literally means a "mighty one.")

[hen8167]

@ancienthebreworg i guess we could say that when christians use this verse in isaiah to say this is proof that jesus is god ...THEY are wrong or they cant use it because this verse does not say that.

[tomopotamus]

@hen8167 I've never seen Christians use this verse to prove that Jesus is God. This is the first I've ever heard of it even happeneing. It wouldn't even make sense to use the Old Testament to initially try to prove that Jesus is God anyway.

[hen8167]

@tomopotamus oh yes ...i've had christian friends try to use this verse many many times,,,to try to justify their claim that the messiah is god or part of a trinity. Christians also claim that god appeared to Abraham as a person and was accompanied by two angles just befor sodom and gamorah's destruction. THOSE claims and claiming god is a trinity is laughable at best.

[tomopotamus]

@hen8167 Well, Genesis does say that God appeared to Abraham as a person. Genesis 18:17 for example. Genesis 18 says that there were two angels that appeared with the Lord.

I personally wouldn't use this verse to say that the Messiah is God. He did a good job proving that on his own.

[hen8167]

@tomopotamus i dont believe he proved nor do i think he is god. There are verses and statements that show he is not god only human. Human sacrafice is forbidden ...why would god sacrafice a human being for the sake of humanity. Jesus came to confirm the original message of previous prophets ...he did not come with a new message. WHAT YOU HAVE in todays christianity is really Paulianity mixed with roman doctrines....such as the trinity.

[poz1]

@hen8167 "There are verses... show he is not god only human"

Before you can understand he was God. You have to understand that he was human. "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"

That is why he prayed/fasted. He followed the rules he set for humanity. In other words Jesus is the perfect example God wants humans be

"Human sacrafice is forbidden..."

God wanted Abraham to sacrifice his son

Reason for this = Love

[hen8167]

@poz1 God dod not want abraham to sacrafice his son not for love or anything else.God was testing Abraham's faith to see if he would really sacrafice him but god stopped him from doing that because it is really wrong to do that ...thats why the ram was sacraficed instead. This story to me speaks volumes and it basically to me means that humans are not intended for sacrafice.

[XDragasesX]

@hen8167 interesting view, one which is probably true-the whole "blood atonement" of the Reformers is so off the mark, it fits their view of the tyrannical God that would demand the blood of his own son-the Eastern Church does not subscribe to that dogma.

[hen8167]

@XDragasesX i didnt know that the orthodox christians didnt believe in the blood atonement. I always believed that all christians believed in this.

[XDragasesX]

@hen8167 oh no, it is basically the reformers that purport this doctrine....in the East..Christ it is monstrous that God would expect the the death and blood of his only son to atone for sins, Christ defeated Death by Death, over 300 million Christians do not believe in the atonement theory, it is only since Calvin that it is become verbatim...it took Christ's death to go Hades to free all the ones trapped there (Abraham, Joseph, Joshua, Issac, etc) to free them to go to Heaven. and free them.

[XDragasesX]

@hen8167 Human Sacrifice is SO wrong...it go against every thing God stands for....it is MURDER....no loving God would ever demand human sacrifice...Christ repeats from the prophets "I will have mercy and not sacrifice"....all his talk was going to is death and not to a sacrifice he went quietly like a sacrifice but he wasn't a sacrifice he was doing his job to set those free in Abraham's bosom....those sacrifices in the temple were imperfect.....no father would murder his son it is evil.

[hen8167]

@XDragasesX jesus is a human being and no human being can atone for the sins of another nor can he be responsible for anothers sins. So according to the bible up until jesus arrived god's Law was faulty because nobody was really saved. Even though jesus claimed he came only for the lost sheep of israel. Where does jesus say that his death will do anything for humanity or the souls in "Abrahams Bossom" . Jesus was not god's physical son in anyway shape or form.

[hen8167]

@XDragasesX CONTINUED: The terminolgy, "son" was used in the bible as someone who was righteous such as prophets, kings like king david.

[hen8167]

@poz1 no. god didnt want abraham to sacrafice his son. If he really wanted him too sacrafice his son the Angel would never have stopped Abraham from doing it and god wouldnt have provided Abraham with a ram to sacrafice instead. Human sacrafice is forbidden by god.

[hen8167]

@tomopotamus then the bible contradicts itself. Because it also says that nobody can see god and live. I wonder if this verse was really translated correctly from its original state. I'D like to see what it says in hebrew ...because there are other verses in the bible that are not translated correctly. IF this verse was true then why didnt the jews believe in it .

[LisaDianeRN]

@tomopotamus Yes. If you do a search online to find the verses used to prove that Jesus is God's son, this will be the main one they cite. When you read on to the next chapter, you'll find that a son was born to a maiden, and she called his name Emmanuel. So this could not be referring to Jesus. (I used to think it did).

[wayman29]

nice job.. Love these short lessons...

[DolosChristou]

Its interesting that that you said the issue to to make things fit, because thats exactly what I think the Septuagint translators did here-they tried to make it fit their ideas.

[hen8167]

@DolosChristou yes..i agree

[Yuratchka]

Great video Jeff. I must say, those of us who deal with the actual texts are the most talked down upon. You should read some of the comments on my Isaiah 9 thread. =P

[ancienthebreworg]

I went and looked at the comments of your video and I see what you mean. I think the issue is that the Hebrew does not fit with many peoples interpretation from their English and this causes some theological problems. Rather than deal with the issue it is just ignored.

[DolosChristou]

Since Yura sent me this video, and since I made many of those comments;), I would like to point out that I am a Jew, a Hebrew speaker, and a Seminarian and former yeshiva bocher.

[hen8167]

@DolosChristou wow.. many christians try to use this verse to justify claims that its talking about jesus being god. WHICH I  personnaly dont believe.

[DolosChristou]

Yura, I do read Greek and the Lxx regularly, but thank you for thinking of me in regards to this video, I appreciate it-Hag sameach yedidi:)