Single Payer: Listen To The Doctors!

[feelzthelove]

I don't even have health insurance and I don't want this government plan.

[Sam26100]

oh, I also want the government not to have the right to strangle business, if that's not too much to ask. I want no trade barriers, no federal reserve, no legislatioin of any kind unless it fits into the constitutional clause of direct defense of individual rights I.E. the retaliation against the initiation of force or fraud. Any law that itself initiates force on citizens is immoral, and this crisis we're in is the price we're paying for our immorality as a nation

[frylord333]

And strangle business? You want free market totally? Do you know what kind of shit can arise from that kind of a system? That means no unions, no civil liberties for workers, government controlled by business due to business have many times more money than government, and the freedom to put whatever the hell they want in to products, no matter how detrimental to your health or the environment.

Look at the American industrial revolution and see that I'm right.

[frylord333]

Haha, and to think... in perhaps only a few years time, we will need to give our DNA code to these bastards to even be put on the list... if we have predisposition towards certain diseases, we will be turned away immediately. Hooray for the free market and all its wonderful benefits...

[Sam26100]

So your solution is to give healthcare over to a state run, coercive monopoly? That's when the crawling and bootlicking for priviledges will really begin. Canada has a single payer system, a woman needing a neurotransmitter to save her life was on a waiting list for months, while a beaurocrat-lobbying sex-change patient, got ahead of her in line. That's the future of America if we keep going the way we're going.

[frylord333]

The only reason any of that would happen is due to the government being big the whipping boy of big business right now, but with the insurance companies weakened, it would be very difficult to continue the practices they are perpetrating right now. Right now anyone rich is much more valuable than anyone poor to them. It happens like that now, and changing to single payer sure won't make it any worse.

[esgatch]

Obama excudes his own doctor from the healthcare debate?? If a non-democrate President did that the hypocrite media would blast him on the front page of the newspaper.

Pure evidence of the truth that President Obama himself is 'bought and paid for' by special interests and doesn't support the life, liberty and property of the Citizen.

Wake up, America. Your Congress AND your President have betrayed you!

[hollaboots]

Your comments hit the mark. Single-Payer is the only system that will allow us to move from the corporate controlled wasteland to a more healthy and sustainable system.

[WWWoDMOCRATSoORG]

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[t4ac3y1]

This so-called health care reform is simply an attempt to prop up and support another failed ecomonic sector. There is no way people can pay their outrageous bills, insurance or not! Tthe gov't is performing, yet another bailout under the cover of helping the average citizen. They want us to pay for another failed model! I call bullshit on healthcare reform, and see it as another manipulation of the market with American's footing the bill. They (our Gov't) are getting very creative!

[TheLeftLibertarian]

This is excellent commentary!

[indigo3187]

why would talking about medicare help your argument. medicare has a $34 trillion unfunded liability. thats the cost of about 30 Iraq wars

[jperryam]

The voodoo math of "unfunded liabilities" is not a reflection of Medicare's day-to-day operations. It's far more efficient than a for-profit insurance industry (3% overhead vs 30%) that clearly couldn't care less about our health. Do we need to do a better job paying the bills? Yes. Let's start by saving $400 billion every year with the switch to single payer. And let's throw in another $140-plus billion in annual savings by ending the needless, illegal occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan.

[Sam26100]

I agree that buying health insurance is stupid and counterproductive. Health insurance is a win-lose transaction, so health insurance companies naturally try to deny as much treatment as possible. The whole concept is basically the same as gambling. Gambling that you will get sick enough to get more value than what you put in.

That said what we have now is not worse than single payer, and it's not a private system either. 60% of healthcare is provided by the government we need a free market

[jperryam]

Nobody buys insurance hoping they'll get sick enough to make it worth their while. They do it so they're covered in case something happens. You said yourself the companies deny as much treatment as they can. Every day, after faithfully paying premiums, people are left hanging by the "free market" when they need help the most. Saying that what we have now is not worse than single payer defies rational thinking. You need to look at healthcare as a necessary public service instead of a commodity.

[Sam26100]

? If people buy insurance they are in fact hoping that they will get more $ value out of it, than what they're putting in. Why else would they buy it? If you pay 80 Grand throughout your life for insurance, and you do it just because you want to be "covered in case something happens", you mean you want to be covered if something happens that costs more than 80Grand to pay for. Otherwise, why not just keep your money, and pay out of your own pocket, and keep the remainder

[jperryam]

I'm not going to argue semantics with you. I think you get the point. Read your own words again. Do you have a response to the second half of my previous comment?

[Sam26100]

Umm sure I've got a response. First of all, if healthcare is a "necessary public service" than so is food and shelter Why do we even pay rent, or buy our own groceries? certainly that stuff is more vital than treatment which you may, or may not need Secondly, the single payer health system that Canada has just as an example is a nightmare compared to what we have Sure people don't pay but they don't economize either Beaurocrats hold the arbitrary power over your care You're entitled to nothing

[jperryam]

Good job parroting the status quo propaganda. Just because it's called a "necessary public service" doesn't mean anybody thinks it's supposed to be free. Those of us looking for real healthcare reform can grasp the concept of tax dollars paying for public services. Works pretty well for police and fire. And we would save 400 billion of those tax dollars every year by expanding Medicare to cover all. It's not perfect, but far more efficient and less restrictive than the current for-profit fraud.

[Sam26100]

Status quo? Everywhere I turn people want socialized this and that. Im in the minority here.

Police works well, you sure about that? Taxation is robbery at the point of a gun. Period

In a free market system you are free to deal or not to deal. You don't like an insurance company's policy? don't deal with them. Nobody is holding a gun to your head. With taxation and government programs, there IS a gun to my head. No matter how badly they do, they keep getting paid with my money

[jperryam]

Anybody dealing honestly gets the point about police and fire. What if they refused to help because you hadn't paid your deductible, or they arbitrarily decided that your neigborhood was predisposed to a certain kind of fire or crime? You complain about taxation being robbery, but ignore the fact that we would save $400b every year by switching to single payer, and the fact that insurance rates have risen at three times the rate of wages. When they can say "pay or die," they don't need a gun.

[Sam26100]

There were no taxes until 1916, look it up. Before 1916, for almost 80 years America didn't fight any wars. After taxation began, came Korea, Vietnam, Kuwait, Iraq, and that's just the short list. In 1916 most people paid 1% of their income, now some people pay over 40%. Have you seen the state our socialized schools are in? youtube search: stupid in america. They are funded like crazy, and the more money they get the worse they operate. Sure, we'll just write it off into deficit fincng

[jperryam]

I didn't say we weren't over-taxed. In fact, I've pointed out to you three times now how switching to SP will save $400 billion every year. Any rational person would have to conclude that's a pretty good start. But all you want to do is rant about how taxation is robbery. Which is completely inconsistent with your complaint that SP advocates just want free healthcare. Pretty funny how those doing all the bitching about "entitlements" are the ones who truly want to have their cake and eat it too.

[Sam26100]

? I just want to keep what I earn, and not pay for anybody else's problems, needs, desires, preferences etc.

How is that wanting my cake and eating it too? I want people to be responsible for the bed they make in life. You earn your money, you spend it. If a guy needs surgery that costs 30 grand, and he's 50 years old and can't afford it? well he should have saved up just a little bit shouldn't he have? and if he didn't what right does he have to force others to pay? I want equal rights

[jperryam]

Now that I've had a chance to think about it, I suppose I was wrong. It actually appears that you would not only like to make sure the for-profit insurance industry (which couldn't care less about America's health) gets an even bigger piece of cake, but you want to give them yours too. If you would take the time to think about it, perhaps you would realize how idiotic it is to have no problem paying far more than you need to for something simply because you don't view that payment as a tax.

[Sam26100]

I don't even buy health insurance. It's not an economically sound transaction, if only more people understood that they would be better off

In a free market I wouldn't give anybody anything unless I wanted their service. Period

Look it's very simple. Either there is coercive force, or there isn't. You're talking about a company which has no power to force me to do anything, and the only way I would deal with them is if it were to my advantage. On the other hand, there's a gun to my head

[jperryam]

So you'd be good with being stuck with the tab if, say, some uninsured idiot ran a red light and put you in the hospital for six months? Good for you if you've got that kind of money to piss away. Most don't. Those of us with compassion and common sense don't see single payer as being subjected to coercive force. We see it as everyone contributing to get a good deal. Will some cheat? Sure, but refusing to help all who say they need it because only some are cheaters is morally indefensible.

[Sam26100]

I think basic auto insurance is a sound idea, but we're not discussing that are we? I said I don't buy HEALTH insurance.

Furthermore, if somebody strikes you because he runs a red light, you can sue him. You don't need any special regulations, the Bill of Rights provides us with the right to sue for restitution due to fraud, force, etc.

Single payers "contribute to a good deal?" lol if it was a good deal there would be no need to back it up with threats of imprisonment or death would there?

[jperryam]

Nice job trying to obscure the point, which was clear. Says a lot about the lack of confidence in your own argument. Good luck trying to sue someone who doesn't bother to get auto insurance. Chances are great he has no cash and no other real assets, which puts you on the hook regardless of the right to sue. The "threats of imprisonment and death" are empty propaganda in the pathetic dog and pony show that is the healthcare "debate" in DC, where the vast majority is shilling for the status quo.

[esgatch]

Good point! The turnip that runs a red light might go to jail, but he can't be forced to get a job and reimburse you for your injuries and expenses. No-fault insurance has always been a scam to benefit the insurance copmpanies and the state governments have been in bed with them for years. The 'right-to-travel' is forfeit. (but, that's another can of worms..)

[Sam26100]

I don't care how YOU see single payer, I see it as a gun to my neck in the event that I choose to keep the money that I spend a good chunk of my life working hard to earn, instead of giving it to people for whatever reason they happen to whine about. You are using force against people who don't agree with you. Any mugger, or murderer does the same, except he doesn't make it look like he is doing it for a moral principle.

[jperryam]

I also work hard for my money and would like to keep more of it, as would everyone else. This is why the majority of Americans (along with the majority of docs, who clearly know what they're talking about) supports universal healthcare. Single payer would save $400b per year by cutting out the massive overhead waste in the current system. You're either too blinded by worthless partisanship to see through the lies, or you're actively pushing them to serve your greed. My guess is it's the latter.

[frylord333]

Another thing is the obscene amount of money it takes to get simple procedures, ie: getting a tooth pulled costs roughly 1 grand. Most people can't afford things like that and still have a livelihood. If they have at least some cushion, at least they will still be able to live life without being in debt their entire life.

[ChristopherMarlowe]

Right on man! Lately you've been playing this one note, but this is the timely one to be played. Keep it up.

[womblefree]

I was in the US last year on holiday from England and had to be taken to hospital, it was a good experience and also a weird experience. the young female doctor was excellent and we started to talk about single payer because i found it weird that their was an insurance employee sitting in A&E waiting to pounce on every sick person that came in, i also felt sorry for that person having to stoop so low so she could bring money home.

the doctor said she thought single payer

[womblefree]

2) would not happen because of all the barriers that would be put up to stop it happening, this was before Obama was elected, i had hope to stay to see the election.

Turned out she was right, she also told me her father studied economics at my local university when he was in england, talk about 6 degrees of seperation

[hkeycurrentuser]

...and unless my ears have been deceiving me it sounds like the health care industry lobbyists are trying to turn this whole debacle to their own advantage by sponsoring legislation which will REQUIRE all currently uninsured citizens to purchase health care insurance?

I guess that's one way of getting us all to shut up about not having health care, eh?

[uche007us]

The problem with the doctors and single payer advocates arguments is, if single payer is so effective why dont we convert our car insurance, house insurance and every other type of insurance to single payer?

Medicare is a mess, it is full of waste and corruption since the patient is not paying and could care less what the doctor charges.

Theres a list of insurance reform that would drastically reduce the cost of health care and the list doesnt include medicare style single payer

[oolong2]

Why? because private health insurance is a MESS, it's full of waste and corruption since the patient is not paying.

We don't pay for gas with auto-insurance or get repairs, nor do we clean the carpetsl with house insurance.

20,000 DIE each year because they don't have coverage. Once again there are people who suggest we just tweak the system here and there to fix it.

All you're doing is playing into the hands of Corporations that maintain their profits on the backs of the sick.

[uche007us]

Yes private insurance is a mess but why is it a mess? It is because of the ever rising/ inflated health care cost.

Now ask yourself why we r paying so much for healthcare? and thats because of programs like medicare, 3rd party payers and tort

The only way in the world healthcare cost comes down is when the individual again takes responsibility for paying the doctors away from the 3rd party payers (insurance, medicare and govt)

[oolong2]

No, we're paying so much because there's no really motivation in the market to keep prices low.

That said YOU CANNOT move private insurance out oof the picture without sweeping REFORM. They are not going to step aside nicely, especially since most americans have been made dependent on them.

[jperryam]

uche, the current system burns 30% of the healthcare dollar on overhead and needless waste. Nobody's touting the perfection of Medicare, but it is FAR more efficient (3-4% overhead) and FAR less restrictive than the current system. Simply switching to SP would save us $400 billion dollars every year. If you watch the full interview with Obama's former doc, he does point out that it's not enough to simply enact SP. There must also be controls to ensure that the system is running as it should.

[Y3rMawm]

Far more die because as a result of seeking medical attention.

[oolong2]

True, but that's a whole other issue.

[uclaztec2]

you are so brained washed its sick. the rest of the world that do not have health for profits laughs at you're stupidity.

[uche007us]

dont get me wrong, I do support universal health care only if it not modeled after medicare/canadian system or the british system. Maybe something like the the system in the link below.

/watch?v=r7QMCEa7hVk

I am a fan of the washinghton lobby but sometimes they are right

[Y3rMawm]

Status quo is indeed broken, but Socialism is not the answer. Make no mistake SP is just lipstick on the pig of socialism.

Democracy fails when people start to vote themselves money, and politicians begin bribing taxpayers with taxpayer money.

The Republic is dead. Long live the Republic.

[uche007us]

You couldnt have said it any better. Funny thing is, I used to make the same arguements for medicare style Universal Healthcare still I started listening to libertarian principles. Btw if single payer was so go why not convert car and home insurance to single payer.

Read what Dr Ron Paul said about healthcare reform and you will see where the problem lies.

Hopefully more minds would be changed(jperryam :)) after reading up on his political ideas

[oolong2]

The problem with Ron Paul's ideas on Health Care is that they have NO PRACTICAL IMPLEMENTATION.

Trust me I like Paul, I even donated to his campaign, but here he is just plain wrong.

1. We cannot magically turn back the clock 100 years to change the situaton that we are in.

2. "Tweaks" to the system in hopes that pure capitalism will fix it will never release the foothold the Corporations now have on our government and healthcare industry.

Weak reform will never be strong enough

[uche007us]

I suprised you know who Ron Paul is and still think his solution to healthcare reform are impractical.

Now I will giveyou 3 of the so call tweaks that would effectively transform healthcare as we know it

1. Remove the restriction preventing individ. from buying out of state insurance

2. Tort reform

3. Extend the health insurance tax breaks given to companies to the individual.

These are some of the practical reforms proposed by the good doctor to solve our healthcare problem

[oolong2]

You don't fix a system by premoting health insurance... Any captitalist (including Ron Paul) knows that with insurance there is a capitalistic incentive for prices to go up and coverage to be dropped.

To your points:

1. Is what corporations want

2. Tort Reform is not mutually exclusive to a public plan (and see #1)

3. Tax breaks won't cover people, it increases the deficet and puts more cash into the pockets of insurance.

Congrats you've just laid out the insurance lobby plan

[jperryam]

Please. All this clueless whining about "socialism" is getting really old. Single payer is not politicians bribing us with our own money. It's politicians doing the job we hired them to do, instead of sleeping with corporate slugs at our expense. If more people could summon up the spine to put their ignorant politics aside, do some honest homework and employ the critical thinking skills they were born with, we would all be a lot better off. SP is the ONLY choice for REAL healthcare reform.

[Homer177]

This is nothing I don't know already. You're right about one thing though. The people are kept ignorant about anything and everything from politics to education, science and healthcare and even religion and the occult. The religious institutions the world over have more wealth than the rest of the world COMBINED. With that kind of money we could literally feed and clothe and house every person on the planet. It's been like this for thousands of years.