if you want to believe in jesus and god so you dont blame yourself for how bad your life may turn out because its all 'part of his plan' and theres nothing you can do about it. i dont need someone to take the blame for my own actions so i am an atheist but also...also..as youl notice children often behave in a manner we assume as 'wrong' such as hitting people and laughing because they have not been TAUGHT that its wrong. if a child is not taught that actions are wrong then he will just do it
Atheism does not explain the sense of good or evil. Science attempts to do this. Atheism is a lack of belief in god. In order to "disprove" atheism you would have to display evidence for the existence of a god.
This kid has a fundamental misunderstanding of Atheism and he seems to be morally retarded to boot. Maybe someone should push him down that flight of stairs instead, according to his faith, that person would be doing all of us a favor.
I would argue that not everyone is the born with a sense of right and wrong. Take the extreme, serial killers, for example. They see nothing wrong with killings several people. Why would God instill a sense of morality into some of his children, but not all?
So who's more moral here? The atheist who refrains from harming the old lady because causing suffering to another human is inherently repulsive to him/her? Or the theist, like the guy in this video, who refrains from harming the old lady because he fears punishment after the fact? The fact is when harm is done to another human being we automatically place ourselves in their shoes, its called empathy. It is in the species best interest to help each other, else we would not have survived thus long
So the only thing preventing you from geriatricide is fear of punishment ? Not morality or the fact that this old lady is a human who has the right to live? You would not think about how it would affect her family her friends or relatives? I don't kill people as an atheist because I can EMPATHISE. Not by fear of punishment. Which I think makes me a better person than you in every way!
Having answered that question, let me turn it around. Why do those who believe in God sometimes kill old ladies. The prisons are full of people, some of which are Christians, some of those are also killers and some of those have killed old ladies. Do they not know or believe someone is watching them? Did God forget to give them an innate sense of morality. Seems to me a pretty strong evidence against either the existance of God, or the sincerity of those who profess belief.
a) I don't kill other people because I do not want to be killed. b) I don't kill other people because I would not want someone important to me killed. c) I don't kill other people, because I can not see reason to think killing other people ever solves any problems d) I don't kill other people because the thought of killing other people brings me no pleasure. Just like I don't wipe other people's bottoms or pick other people's noses. No real desire to.
(1) It is genetic, and mandatory for social behavior.
(2) Acting only rationally, it is easy to determine if something is right or wrong: Would you like it if everyone did this?
There is no need to explain this any more than explain why the sky is blue.
The only reason you chose this particular example is because we are currently ignorant of the exact functioning of the brain, making it the only even potentially supernatural thing left.
As an atheist I know that killing/hurting someone is wrong because it doesn't make me feel good to see or hear of any living creature in pain. It bothers me that religious people need an invisible man in the sky to tell them what is wrong and what is right and the only reason they aren't hurting other people is because they think they are being watched. I'm naturally a good person :)
@JesusLovinBuddy you cant disprove a rejection of claims. atheism isnt about explaining anything. its about a rejection of your claims. im atheist and i wouldnt push an old lady down the stairs. now you dont kill the old lady because you think someone IS watching. i wouldnt kill her despite my belief that anyone ISNT watching. what does that say about you?
I can't believe what I'm hearing! If fear of punishment is the only reason you wouldn't push an old lady down a flight of stairs you are truly one pathetic individual. As a humanist/naturalist I have something called a conscience which apparently you lack. The more I hear stuff like this the more I'm glad I'm not a Christian.
thats absolutly right.. everyone does have built in them a feeling of a final consequence or judgment that is going to happen from our actions in life. but although u may have ppl use that against u to win you over to religion, u should look at it as a reason to be open minded that perhaps the may be a God that wants us to do Good in this life.
I dont have to be punished to eventually realise whats wrong or right, what divides me from a psychopath is that my emphathetical centra is working correctly. People can blatantly tell me what they prefer and dont preferer, i can also deduct from my own feelings what i would consider fair or painful and relate to the rest. Not being immoral just because youd get judged is just freaking selfish.
A sense of good and evil? lol Wow kid. We know what's wrong and what's right because we are smart. We don't need someone to tell us to be good.lol You do. I can give you a reason not to kill that women. Because I know its wrong to take a life. If humans just killed people for no reason. then there would be no humans. Animals don't have a god but they don't all kill other animals for no reason. They don't all kill each other. You are so ignorant.
We are raised in a moral society, that's why you shouldn't push old dears down stairs. However each society has it's own morals. Christians believe that burning bodies is wrong, yet hindus believe that putting people in boxes in the ground is wrong. Your morals are dictated by the society you are raised in, not by gawd! If your only reason for not doing a terrible thing is fear of reprisal then i worry for your moral compass.
so the reason you're not an evil motherfucker is because god's got his hand on the lever and you don't wanna got to hell? *enter sarcasm mode* yeah that's a real good reason to help people and not hurt them. cause everyone knows there's no such thing as a genuinely nice person. good thing hell's there to keep us in check! *Sarcasm Off*
IF SOMEONE PUT A KNIFE TO YOUR FACE AND SAID,"you have a choice whether you want to love me or not, but just so you know, if you don't i will cut your face and slice you up and torture you" THAT WOULD BE A THREAT RIGHT? what is the difference between that and what you think your GOD GIVEN FREE WILL IS? god says you can choose, but if not you will burn forever? hmm sounds like a threat, NOT LOVE.
The Spanish Inquisition, The Salem Witch Trials, and The Crusades. these are some of the things you should research into. In addtion i leave with this quote - Men Never do evil so completely and cheefully as when they it from religious coviction
Atheism is disbelief in ALL gods, not just your bronze age tribal totem deity. Let's pretend that objective, absolute morality really does exist but was actually created by a god YOU personally don't FEAR judgment from or believe in (like Odin, Zeus, Allah, Enki, Enlil, etc etc etc). Would that make YOU morally capable of killing old ladies on a whim?
I don't need someone else to see, because I would. I would see and I would feel guilty because I have empathy and compassion for other human beings.
Atheists want a civil society because it helps all of us. Anarchy would not provide the peace, comfort, ease of living, and happiness modern societies now enjoy.
If you only shy away from doing wrong beacuase you'll be edventually punished and you only do good so you can get reward (I.e. heaven) then that's just sad.
Well... remember when you were a kid and wrote on the walls or pushed your dinner off of the table. Thats not good but you didn't know until someone else told you. If you didn't know or society doesnt frown upon it its okay.
Being a Christian is totally and 100% faith based. there is no point in trying to prove it, because in the end of the day people are going to believe in what they wanna believe in. let them believe in what they want peacefully, as so they allow us to believe in what we want to also. we should be tolerant and respectful of all religions. nough said. -Christian lady
This right here is why the notion of religion scares me. The idea that My actions are not governed by what I feel is right and wrong, but by my fear of being punished by a higher being. As in your example, you have the stick, god has the gun. Therein he defines your moral code, and dictates how you shall live. I much prefer to live as a person who does good because i want to do good, and resist any temptation to do evil because that is who I want to be, not because I want the treats as a reward.
Nobody ever claimed that atheism could explain morality. The conscience is explained by evolutionary psychology and sociology. What if god told you to throw the old lady down the stairs? Would you do it?
Your argument FAILS. If you're a Christian, you know that as long as you repent and believe in Christ, you'll be forgiven for your sins. So there is no consequence for murdering the old lady. If you're an atheist, then you're free of the insane Biblical version of morality, and you know that you are responsible for your actions, and that it hurts us all if people freely commit murder. So you are restrained by your own intelligence, not some myth. "Moral" is how you act when NO ONE is watching!
I stopped listening at 1:20. If the only thing keeping you from pushing an old woman down a flight of stairs is your fear of judgement, and not your ability to empathize with that woman and project the results of being pushed down stairs onto yourself, to be able to imagine what it would be like if it happened to you, then you are honestly a horrible person. I pity you.
Atheists don't need cosmic babysitters. We understand why things are wrong all by ourselves.
If you people need the bible in order to know what is right and wrong, then you're already fucked. Reasons to not kill old lady: Too much effort, not worth it, easier to ignore, I wouldn't want to be killed just because someone doesn't like me, what about her family, what about my family, what about my neighbors. Morality is simple. Your bible is immoral that is why this is so hard for you to get.
Your video is good, your style is funny, but you didn't prove your point.
As an atheist, I wouldn't kill an old lady because I would feel bad about it. This is atheistic morality based on feelings. You don't need a bible when God speaks inside your heart. The bible would only confuse you more.
Around 2:15 you say we can all agree that humans have an innate sense of right and wrong. Then you add, "Theists say, God put it there." I'm assuming by your name that you are a Christian and therefore know the story of Adam and Eve. Then you also know that according to myth, God did not give us any sense of morality or right and wrong. Instead, we gained that sense when we ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Afterwards, we were punished for gaining our morality.
There is one problem though; anyone who goes around killing people, will make enemies; and there is always someone who is faster/stronger/better or has more friends. You will quickly end up with bloodfeuds. So, families combine to make clans; and clans combine to create countries; and voilá, we're back to where we are now.
Violence is not a lasting solution, and there is no need for a God to make that trivial connection.
So, the only reason you wouldn't push the old lady down the stairs is that you fear punishment from your all loving god? Stay away from me then!
Keep in mind that atheism doesn't say anything about moral values. That is a straw man argument. Atheism is simply the rejection of a theistic claim of a gods existence, nothing else. It doesn't even say that a god is not possible.
Hmmm let me think for a moment, that ones a stumper...oh wait, I know.
Being human, presumably the old lady is too, I have a really good idea how another human or their family/friends is going to feel being pushed down some stairs, have their ice-cream stolen, their tribe wiped from the face of the earth etc.
So, I don't do it because I don't like causing other humans discomfort because I can *empathise* with them...
Of course, people don't always act well. Someone might kill a person he identifies as being of other politics, race or religion. It is this opposition to outsiders that allows people to plant bombs or fly planes into buildings. The person he is attacking does not represent his group and so the attacker feels no guilt, particularly if his group condones it, no matter what God thinks. Might not a Christian push the woman down the steps if he knew she had been an abortion doctor earlier in life?
I am an atheist. I think we can agree that most people wouldn't push the old lady down. You believe it is God telling you that you will be punished in the next life. I think it is down to the fact that it gave us an evolutionary advantage to co-operate in groups. Clearly, any species that kills one of its own every time it encounters one is not going to survive very long. A vole on the riverbank may hiss at an invader of its own species rather than kill it.
So your mentality is that people should be good to save themselves so they get the ticket to heaven on "judgement day", rather than be good for the benefit of the lady, in this case.
The way I see the Christian mentality is this: Be good for God, so that you can get to heaven. So really, you are just being good for yourself, not for the benefit of others.
Morality= vastly a product based on social indoctrination. Any smart person who has studied/read studies on how children "learn" morality would know this.
Damn some people are narrow-minded.
The "Old Lady Argument" is a gross simplification on the human sense of morality. And i think its far more honourable to not do it because one was taught so than because some scary god figure will punish you if you do it.
A good persons morals dont derive from the fear of being punished. You shouldn't push her down not because it would benefit you in the long run (that'd be selfish), but because religion aside, atheist or theist, you should know in your heart that would be a sick thing to do.
Ah, religious people, the only people who have to have a really good reason not to beat down an old lady... It's pretty sad when you need to feel like you'll be punished if you PUSH AN OLD LADY DOWN. Holy shit, man, how sad is that?!
... conclusions like "GOD DID IT" ... and try to do a bit research your self ... because keep in mind, in history of human race, people were often wrong when they rush to conclusions and said "GOD DID IT" .. ex: Lighting, earthquakes, human birth, death, sickness, deformities etc. etc. etc. ... But it might come too harsh when put this way, but simply put. I would push because i think if you do good things, people are more likely to return the favor.
Its genetics. Species that live in packs got the what can be cold protective instinct, defend other members, like mothers and their children. The packs with this instinct will be more likely to survive, because they stick together and co-exists. Naturally this trait passes on from generation to generation, benefiting the species that has it. Humans have this too. Its simple as that. If that doesn't satisfy you, i would still recommend not jumping into ........
Since you understand that all humans (who aren't mentally ill) have this feeling that it would be wrong to push the old lady, your argument boils down to the fact that you believe God put that feeling there. But beliefs don't prove anything.
thats the lamest argument i have heard !!!!! EVER ! so u dont push her because u are afraid of gods punishment ? not because u believe in forgiveness ? and here is an answer for you !!! atheist: it would be irrational to kill the old woman for her irrationality ! and if your a rational man u wont do it ! and guess what animals also have the since of right and wrong after all you dont see them killing each other and murdering each other ! and btw most criminals claim to be Christian ! so yeah !!!
It's only wrong if you're punished? Do you have a conscience, empathy or a memory? If you have a conscience, you can probably see that hurting her will cause her pain; it will also cause pain to her family and friends. If you have empathy, causing this pain will cause you pain too. If you have a memory, you will remember what you did, you will remember the pain you caused and you will feel pain.
If you have neither conscience, empathy nor memory, then sure; god is up there and will punish you.
I wouldn't push the lady because I would feel terrible about doing that. I have empathy. I don't do things out of fear of God, that's retarded. Stop embarrassing yourself.
If I were an atheist, I wouldn't push the old lady down the stairs because my actions develop habits. My habits define me through my behavior. My behavior helps to shape the society around me by modeling for others (even when I don't know they're looking), especially the next generation of kids who would push me down the damn stairs had they not seen me behave kindly toward the bitch who chased me off of her grass!
I always get this icky feeling in my stomach every time I hear someone make the argument that the ONLY reason he does no wrong is fear of punishment. Do you really believe you would go around killing old ladies you dislike if it were not for your fear of hell? Uck!
Many people (atheist, theist, or otherwise) DO NOT agree that we all have an innate sense of right and wrong; many people (atheist, theist, or otherwise) believe that a sense of right and wrong is a product of our biology!
@JohnHasSeriousQ If I didn't fear the flying spaghetti monster I would be out on the street mugging, raping, and murdering every old lady I've ever seen on the streets. Damn old ladies, they deserve only death. Then flying spaghetti monster tells me if I don't hurt people I get 72 strippers, and a beer volcano.
I would say morality is a trait instilled on people by their environment (parents, relatives, peers). I Don't think that we are born with a sense of right and wrong ingrained within us. That would also explain why many people have different views on right and wrong. People raised being told it's ok to treat black people as second class citizens will probably act in that way. Peopl who are taught it's they should kill jews (nazis),Tutsi (Hutu) or Muslims (christians during crusades) probably will
The reason you don't do it is because....... are you ready?.... IT'S WRONG!!! And if you need an external source to point that out then I feel sorry for you. I truly do. But I doubt you do. I believe religion has torn you down and put a god as its center so that you give credit to a god for being a decent human being. BTW, all you are doing by making this video is making a case that you have no integrity. That you have to consider a gods punishment when debating whether to do good or bad.
First off, I'm a Christian. But this argument is very weak.
Morality, if we're speaking as if it's apart from God, very easily could have developed through evolution. Why wouldn't an atheist kill someone they don't like? Well, in ancient days before there would have been law or even speech, people would not just randomly kill each other because they would fear the same thing happening to them. Morality assists the preservation of species. If we all killed each other, we'd all be dead.
First off, I'm a Christian. But this argument is very weak.
Morality, if we're speaking as if it's apart from God, very easily could have developed through evolution. Why wouldn't an atheist kill someone they don't like? Well, in ancient days before there would have been law or even speech, people would not just randomly kill each other because they would fear the same thing happening to them. Morality assists the preservation of species. If we all killed each other, we'd all be dead.
First off, I'm a Christian. But this argument is very weak.
Morality, if we're speaking as if it's apart from God, very easily could have developed through evolution. Why wouldn't an atheist kill someone they don't like? Well, in ancient days before there would have been law or even speech, people would not just randomly kill each other because they would fear the same thing happening to them. Morality assists the preservation of species. If we all killed each other, we'd all be dead.
First off, I'm a Christian. But this argument is very weak.
Morality, if we're speaking as if it's apart from God, very easily could have developed through evolution. Why wouldn't an atheist kill someone they don't like? Well, in ancient days before there would have been law or even speech, people would not just randomly kill each other because they would fear the same thing happening to them. Morality assists the preservation of species. If we all killed each other, we'd all be dead.
the only reason you don't want to push a lady down the stairs is because your scared of how you would be judged or punished? the reason i wouldn't is because my parents taught me values, its basic. your own sense of right and wrong is developed when you grow up and your brain develops. No body can ever prove god exists or doesn't.
I can give you one great reason. because everybody has the natural instict to survive, and people don't like the idea of somebody going around killing people, because you might be next. therefore it is a shunned idea from society, aside from the death penalty. :) don't get me wrong, im buddhist, im just stating something that i think should be obvious
This is absurd. First, atheism cannot be disproved. It could in theory be eliminated, but never disproved - it is simply a lack of belief in God. There is nothing about it that can be proved or disproved. Second, your old lady argument seems to imply that your own reason, as a Christian, for not offing the old bag is fear of punishment from your God. The correct reason for not sending her tumbling is empathy, and there is a compelling body of research that shows this has neurological basis
I think you're the bigger threat to society as an immoral person: the only reason you don't do harm to others is because you fear punishment.. I'm an atheist and I can justify my morals. Can you?
You honestly think you're not gonna get caught killing an old woman? Hell, if I hated someone and thought they deserved to die and I know 100% for sure I wouldn't get caught (very unrealistic), I would kill them. I am an athiest.
You honestly think you're not gonna get caught killing an old woman? Hell, if I hated someone and thought they deserved to die and I know 100% for sure I wouldn't get caught (very unrealistic), I would kill them. I am an athiest.
Christianity doesn't explain sociopaths who have no moral values.
I believe that morality could probably be explained through evolution; people who are immoral are more likely to be killed because they are going to piss people off, so they will have less of a chance to reproduce. If you don't believe in evolution, however, it is difficult to think this out rationally. I appreciate this argument, however.
Even though shoving old ladies down stairs is funny as hell. I would probably go to jail for doing it. Plus I would feel bad about it. Would probably have bad dreams. Just ask someone who has killed another person. Most are traumatized by it.
If you're saying that only religion people can have morals then explain to me why I have morals. You had morals before you even heard there was a god. Even dogs know it is wrong when they pee on the carpet and you say "NO! Bad dog!" Argument debunked :)
As a Pagan, I shouldn't do it because it harms her. "An' it harm none, do as ye will". I wouldn't want someone to push me down so I shouldn't push someone else down. It has nothing to do with whether or not I get caught, or punished in this life or any other. I want to live in a society where I am safe and respected as a person so I will not work to create a society where people are not safe and respected. What goes around often comes around. This is just common sense.
For another perspective, you'd do well to read Marc Hauser's "Moral Minds: How Nature Designed Our Universal Sense of Right and Wrong."
Moreover, on the facts of your hypothetical, you're not killing the old lady because you're afraid of being punished for doing it, *not* because you bellieve it's wrong.
That's like saying someone who doesn't enjoy your hobby has no morals unless they make it the hobby and you can't disprove athiesm it's not even an ideology. Dude your retarted.
so, your saying without god, you would kill the women and would not care about morals? you just said it and this is why most atheist think theist morality is fucked. you do not kill the person because you enjoy life and the person does to
Ah, the old morality argument. I could refer you to the countless videos and articles that disprove that particular argument, or I could even point out the immorality present in the sacred texts of the world, but instead I present to you the problem of evil. How can an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, and benevolent being allow evil to exist? The answer is, of course, that it can't, but evil does exist, so he can't possibly exist, otherwise you would have a logical contradiction.
@wonkerjk No you haven't, and if you had, you would either show or cite it, but if there was scientific proof, every person in the first and second worlds would already fucking know about it. You are either referring to some philosophical bullshit, or some creationist propaganda that wasn't strong enough to be peer reviewed so it had to go straight to the bookshelves.
@wonkerjk THEN SHOW IT TOO ME! IF THERE IS PROOF OF GOD YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO WITHHOLD IT FROM ME! IF YOU HAVE SCIENTIFIC PROOF WHY HAVEN'T YOU SHOWN IT TO THE WORLD, WHY HAVEN'T YOU SAVED ALL OF THE ATHEISTS? please tell me, i really want to know if there is a god or not, if you have new evidence then i need to see it
@wonkerjk oh... ok... i eagerly await it, i really do hope its scientific, proof, and of god, because very few people have actually tried to present scientific proof
Disprove atheism? What is it that you think atheism claims? Atheism only exists because theism exists. All atheism is, is a rejection of the claim that a god exists. It doesn't matter what you believe, that doesn't make me believe. I still don't believe there is a god, therefore I am an atheist, therefore atheism exists. So, just what is it you are trying to disprove? Whatever it is, this old lady argument is...well...lame at best. Why don't our pets rip us apart? Do they believe in god?
This IS a joke right? If not.. this is the worst argument I have ever heard. If you honestly won't hurt another human being (much less an defenseless old lady) just because you fear god... you need therapy & soon, real soon. The fact that I'm atheist & I care for terminally ill children blows your theory out of the water.
...and now that I've started to watch your video, I couldn't get more than 1 minute and 30 seconds to see the ridiculousness of your argument. You, it seems, wouldn't push the old lady because an external, arbitrary authority will judge you, whereas I, an atheist would not push the woman because I have no reason to want to cause harm to another being. If your god does exist, who do you think would impress him more, you, who needs to be controlled, or me, who just doesn't wish to cause harm?
"Proof" is for maths, deductive reasoning and booze, son. Methinks you need to take a course in epistemology. I didn't even need to watch a second of your video to spot this glaring fallacy in your thinking. If you want your e-pinions to be taken seriously, you need to get control of some basic critical thinking tenets.
even though we cant give an adequate answer to your satisfaction, we've convinced ourselves why its wrong, if you need God's judgment to prevent you from doing it, then too bad. you cant explain why some still chose to do it, either they dont know, or they dont care.
1. Not all humans feel guilt and not all humans fear supernatural punishment. BUT even if they did...
2. Humans are built from their genes. If something (such as the fear of being watched) is built into you, it does not mean you are being watched, it means that you inherited the right genes to build that into you. Why those genes? Because the lack of that fear could have made your ancestors take more risks, leading to your not being concieved.
Your beginning premise, that we need to explain this sense of good and evil we have, presupposes we have a sense of good and evil that is innate. tooltime9901 and smpunditz have pounded this idea of objective morality into the dirt. This is old hat. You apologists really need to come up with some new material that hasn't already been thoroughly killed to death.
@JohnHenryAlex like I said though I'm not the judge so idk , nor am someone who studies scripture a lot, but I'd assume that those who didn't know God in life would be judged rightly by Jesus.
"if those who have not heard or understood the gospel make it to heaven, it will not be because they deserved it, but because of the amazing love and saving work of Jesus Christ—whether they heard of it or not. He is “the Saviour of the world” (John 4:42; 1 John 4:14)"
@JohnHenryAlex well I see it as if you know God and reject him then that's your fault and you will be judged.
"For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Romans" 1:21
"See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God." Hebrews 3:12
these two verses support it, I'll still look into it but I think people misinterpret stuff.
@JohnHenryAlex Good point. If only God had been a bit more clear in his word there wouldn't be so many disagreements and missunderstandings. But really how is an all knowing deity supposed to foresee that problem...
@JohnHenryAlex Sadly you are correct. Which means if you factor in infant mortality rates around the globe for the past 2000 years, the population of hell is mostly made up of children. What boggles the mind even more is that God knew these children wouldn't survive until the age of reason. Meaning he created these souls just to go to hell.
@JohnHenryAlex nope I honestly just think you didn't understand what I was trying to say, maybe I'm wrong, but I honestly don't think that anyone should say who is or isn't going here or there based on a couple of verses b/c yea Jesus is the way to life, but if Jesus is the perfect judge (not us, thank God) then I'd assume for anyone who never really had the choice of accepting him in life on earth wouldn't get sent to hell for indirectly rejecting him.
Good and evil are words that we use to describe certain actions. The vast majority of people would say that pushing the old lady is "evil". This is because pushing the old lady does harm to her. It has absolutely nothing to do with a god and this does not "disprove" atheism.
I do good because I care about others not because I fear a final judgement.
I don't think God is going to fall for your "pretending to be nice for fear of punishment" ruse. Then again all theistic Gods are about as smart as the people espousing them. So who knows, maybe it's worth a shot.
People feel a sense of right and wrong because we evolved that sense. Morality does not prove anything, let alone the existence of something super incredible gigantic big like gods.
we all love you sort off... But really mate or you own health, clear up. Stop the youtube think for yourself, think think think. When you go to bed dont think i did it great i made another video pwning the athests, but just think........... It will help you in many ways!
I am a Christian and I am familiar with, accept, and even have videos arguing for the moral argument. That being said, "final judgment" has little to nothing to do with the moral argument. If "final judgement" is really the reason you do not push the old lady, then it has nothing to do with morality. Instead of doing "good" you are just doing what is in your best interest. In other words.. you are refraining from pushing her for selfish, pragmatic reasons.. not moral ones.
As a Christian it doesn't matter if you push her, because you are only good because of God, and all He cares is whether you love him or not.
As an atheist, I'm good because I have empathy hard-wired in me. I'm good by nature - and guess what, so are you. Christianity just makes you think you are a worthless sinner without God.
part of the christian message is to love others as yourself, it's not just the love for God that is important, b/c he loves us and wants us to love him and let him help us become better people.
@jeffscoo The Christian dogma says, that ultimately the only criterion for receiving a ticket to heaven is that you believe in god. You can be a homicidal rapist, but as long as you believe in god, you're safe. On the other hand, if you are the most peace-loving person in the world, but you don't believe, he will let you suffer.
But, back to the point: If some god is the only reason you do good things, you are a horrible person and I hope you keep believing.
@maisteri the thing is though I believe that if we truly love God with all our hearts and accept him for who he is which means we accept what he's done for us then we will be changed by his spirit and desire to grow to be more like him which means we'd be taking his word more seriously, his message of love. So for the believer who refuses to repent and accept the way of life preached through the gospels then he will be judged for he has fallen idol to his sin not putting God ahead of sin in life
@maisteri (cont.) I'm not the judge so idk what God's call will be on the unbelievers, but I don't personally accept that he will send all them to hell b/c in a lot of cases that would be just unfair for a lot of people and if God's the perfect judge then that doesn't make sense. for example someone who grew up in a secular home who sees no way there could be a God; judgment based on that is unfair b/c they didn't know and thus they didn't deliberately reject God, only technically did they.
@jeffscoo There was a missionary doing works in a remote place in the Congo. He was speaking to the natives about Jesus and how if they accept him as their lord, they would be granted eternal life in heaven. Else they would burn in hell forever. So one of the natives asks "What happens to people who never had the oppertunetly to accept Jesus?"
"Well, they get into heaven because they couldn't have known any better" to which the native replied "Then why are you telling us this?"
@Shaobaal if we know of Jesus on Earth it's a gift and our responsibility is to grow with the Lord and to spread the good news the way of life on Earth, if God is real and Jesus is the way then the fact that we know about and have received him in our lives should be enough for us to truly want to live the life of love that Christ calls us to. For the people in the Congo if they received him into their lives I personally believe they'd feel the same way.
@jeffscoo So you would risk another persons eternal soul just to tell them about Jesus? That's quite the gamble with someone else life. I find that to be quite immoral. I also think someone who sacrifices themselves in my place without asking me is immoral. But I guess that's because morality is subjective.
@Shaobaal well as I said I'm not the judge, but if people honestly don't see how Jesus is the way or how God the Father is real, regardless of whether they heard someone talk to them about God or not, I don't see how that would count against them it's beyond their understanding imo.
for the rest of what your comment says w/ the sacrifice being immoral and morality argument I just see things differently then you obviously b/c I'm a Christian.
@jeffscoo It's immoral because he didn't ask. Also it's just a bad idea. Would you be willing to release all people in prison and lump the combined sentences onto one person? Not only does that not make sense (especially for an all powerful God) but it's incredibly immoral.
@Shaobaal so is it immoral for me to help you up if you fall, if I didn't ask if you wanted the help? I just don't understand what you mean by that point you're trying to make. As for the prisoner point I believe God will judge us all but I also believe he loves us more than we could ever know and it's b/c of that love that he made the sacrifice for us, so we may gain understanding of the example he was trying to set. like I said I try to understand scripture and see the sacrifice as just.
@jeffscoo It would not be immoral unless I told you not to help me. But It's polite to ask "do you need help?" before assisting someone. Giving assistance where it's not welcome IS immoral. I never asked Jesus to bear my sin, in fact he never gave me a chance to say no (which I would have). And since I believe that only i'm accountable for my own actions, he had no right to take my burden. And what do you call it when someone takes something of yours without permission? Theft.
@Shaobaal while I understand your point now but I don't think asking for assistance is necessary in this case b/c I believe this is a matter of life (w/God) or death (w/out him). I think a better ex, of what I meant, is imagine a life guard saving a kid drowning, it's immoral not to save the kid.
@jeffscoo The problem with this analogy is that no one hired the lifeguard, and it was he who put the kid in the pool in the first place. Knowing well beforehand that he would drown.
@Shaobaal "Knowing well beforehand that he would drown."
Well in order for us to be truly free God had to give us ability to choose to follow him or not to. I believe God is good in nature, and so if he is then if we reject him then darkness follows. I don't take at least the first ch. of Genesis literally but the story means the same, God gave them the choice to follow or not, they didn't and so death followed as a result.
@jeffscoo Having two choices does not demonstrate free will very well. How about the free will to be left alone? No bowing or eternal torture. Because to me i'm in a lose lose situation. Forced love or torture. And if God already knew our future actions before he created us how can free will work?
@Shaobaal I think that the choice requires no thought and while one reason why is b/c of the nonexistent pros that are outweighed by the cons of the other choice that's not the main reason why. In life I believe everything I do can be worship, if it's without sin it can be worship and so I assume heaven won't just be eternal mass, and that like Jesus said on the cross to that one dude, today we'll be in paradise I assume since God loves us he wants us to be happy.
@jeffscoo No worries, but I can say so much more. And I have many more questions. I noticed on your page it says you want to do refutations. So you should be well prepared. I also noticed you have similar taste in music as I do, Kudos!
@Shaobaal "I noticed on your page it says you want to do refutations. So you should be well prepared." I know :p lol
"I also noticed you have similar taste in music as I do, Kudos!" ty if I ever get a hold of a camera drum vids will probably be what I post for the most part
@Shaobaal "No it really does because it's a cruel and immoral choice for a loving God to impose."
uggh I keep trying to post a comment but it wouldn't but anyways, clearly we see differently on this, take my points of view as you please. idk what more I can say in regards to this other than what i've already said.
@Shaobaal (cont.) I believe salvation is based on whether we accept Jesus who is the way to life w/ The Father, the one who brought forth our existence. but we're accountable for our actions we can chose to do what we want but we will be judged for the right and wrong we've done. the sacrifice was done so that we may understand God's love and that he is just.
@jeffscoo "the sacrifice was done so that we may understand God's love and that he is just."
But I, like many people think that taking someones sin without asking is unjust. So he seems to have failed in that regard. Was a blood sacrifice really necessary for an all loving (all powerful) God? I don't know any normal person who requires the torture and slaying of a third party, in order to earn their (potential) forgiveness.
"But I, like many people think that taking someones sin without asking is unjust." I'm sorry but I personally see his intentions as good and trying to help us, so I don't understand how that isn't just.
@Shaobaal (cont.) from the part of your comment I quoted.
The reason I see it as just is b/c he who allowed us to be w/him provided us a way that wouldn't go against our freedom to choose, life with him b/c of the sacrifice. In other words God gave us freedom to choose and we rejected him so death followed and sin became our nature. Jesus who overcame sin gives us life if we accept what he did and him for who he is, and w/ that choice comes life with God who I believe helps us grow in love.
@Shaobaal "But remember what this choice is: Love me or be tortured for eternity. This is not how love works."
you're right in that that's the choice. but I personally believe God is good so I see it as you accept him or reject him. with rejection comes darkness with acceptance comes light. Rejection wouldn't really be a choice b/c of how illogical it is to take that. but nonetheless it's a choice to be made that can't be sugarcoated. why should he be there for us if we reject him?
@jeffscoo He shouldn't, he should just leave us be. That would be the loving and moral thing to do. If someone doesn't love you do you shoot them in the back as they walk away?
@Shaobaal "He shouldn't, he should just leave us be. That would be the loving and moral thing to do. If someone doesn't love you do you shoot them in the back as they walk away?"
but if he can better us in more ways than one then why wouldn't you want it other than that you aren't given the choice to not be involved with him? Imo he's not like a clingy girl friend, he's more like a parent an eternal parent, and like a parent they let us go so we can grow but with our actions come consequences.
if you want to believe in jesus and god so you dont blame yourself for how bad your life may turn out because its all 'part of his plan' and theres nothing you can do about it. i dont need someone to take the blame for my own actions so i am an atheist but also...also..as youl notice children often behave in a manner we assume as 'wrong' such as hitting people and laughing because they have not been TAUGHT that its wrong. if a child is not taught that actions are wrong then he will just do it
TokiRecords 1 month ago
/implying that morality only present due to fear of eternity in suffering
BreanMate 1 month ago
Atheism does not explain the sense of good or evil. Science attempts to do this. Atheism is a lack of belief in god. In order to "disprove" atheism you would have to display evidence for the existence of a god.
bowser5295 2 months ago
This kid has a fundamental misunderstanding of Atheism and he seems to be morally retarded to boot. Maybe someone should push him down that flight of stairs instead, according to his faith, that person would be doing all of us a favor.
ImStayGold42 2 months ago
I would argue that not everyone is the born with a sense of right and wrong. Take the extreme, serial killers, for example. They see nothing wrong with killings several people. Why would God instill a sense of morality into some of his children, but not all?
EpicSkillz45 2 months ago
you said, (paraphrasing) "if someone doesnt see you do it, it's not morally wrong".
if you lost your faith would you kill that old lady? if so, you are not on the higher moral ground.
in answer to your actual question, i refer you to Moral Philosophy 101.
read more than one book...
luhumanists 4 months ago
So who's more moral here? The atheist who refrains from harming the old lady because causing suffering to another human is inherently repulsive to him/her? Or the theist, like the guy in this video, who refrains from harming the old lady because he fears punishment after the fact? The fact is when harm is done to another human being we automatically place ourselves in their shoes, its called empathy. It is in the species best interest to help each other, else we would not have survived thus long
Nucl3arTeacup 4 months ago in playlist More videos from JesusLovinBuddy
So the only thing preventing you from geriatricide is fear of punishment ? Not morality or the fact that this old lady is a human who has the right to live? You would not think about how it would affect her family her friends or relatives? I don't kill people as an atheist because I can EMPATHISE. Not by fear of punishment. Which I think makes me a better person than you in every way!
mapdark 4 months ago
Having answered that question, let me turn it around. Why do those who believe in God sometimes kill old ladies. The prisons are full of people, some of which are Christians, some of those are also killers and some of those have killed old ladies. Do they not know or believe someone is watching them? Did God forget to give them an innate sense of morality. Seems to me a pretty strong evidence against either the existance of God, or the sincerity of those who profess belief.
JeffreyGodwin 4 months ago
a) I don't kill other people because I do not want to be killed. b) I don't kill other people because I would not want someone important to me killed. c) I don't kill other people, because I can not see reason to think killing other people ever solves any problems d) I don't kill other people because the thought of killing other people brings me no pleasure. Just like I don't wipe other people's bottoms or pick other people's noses. No real desire to.
JeffreyGodwin 4 months ago
Why we have morality:
(1) It is genetic, and mandatory for social behavior.
(2) Acting only rationally, it is easy to determine if something is right or wrong: Would you like it if everyone did this?
There is no need to explain this any more than explain why the sky is blue.
The only reason you chose this particular example is because we are currently ignorant of the exact functioning of the brain, making it the only even potentially supernatural thing left.
TaslemGuy 5 months ago
one day this guy may wake up and think about what he is really saying.
TommyNockersx3 5 months ago
rly?.. this guy does not have a clue what the word atheist is or means.
TommyNockersx3 5 months ago
you shouldn't kill anyone because it would hurt that person and hurt all the people that love them.
MsVeganAtheist 5 months ago
As an atheist I know that killing/hurting someone is wrong because it doesn't make me feel good to see or hear of any living creature in pain. It bothers me that religious people need an invisible man in the sky to tell them what is wrong and what is right and the only reason they aren't hurting other people is because they think they are being watched. I'm naturally a good person :)
MsVeganAtheist 5 months ago
@JesusLovinBuddy you cant disprove a rejection of claims. atheism isnt about explaining anything. its about a rejection of your claims. im atheist and i wouldnt push an old lady down the stairs. now you dont kill the old lady because you think someone IS watching. i wouldnt kill her despite my belief that anyone ISNT watching. what does that say about you?
quirkyrecords 5 months ago
I can't believe what I'm hearing! If fear of punishment is the only reason you wouldn't push an old lady down a flight of stairs you are truly one pathetic individual. As a humanist/naturalist I have something called a conscience which apparently you lack. The more I hear stuff like this the more I'm glad I'm not a Christian.
JonMoody47 5 months ago
thats absolutly right.. everyone does have built in them a feeling of a final consequence or judgment that is going to happen from our actions in life. but although u may have ppl use that against u to win you over to religion, u should look at it as a reason to be open minded that perhaps the may be a God that wants us to do Good in this life.
Gods0n1 5 months ago
you fantasize of shoving old women? wtf is wrong with you?
oh wait...
a10fjet 6 months ago
Another jesus retard who thinks a non belief in god owes him an explaination
Killer0fTheSun 6 months ago
America is the country with the highest crime rate.And it is also the country (besides middle east states) with the highest religious population.
I don't even need to explain where the fuck you've failed.
Daverdare 6 months ago
I dont have to be punished to eventually realise whats wrong or right, what divides me from a psychopath is that my emphathetical centra is working correctly. People can blatantly tell me what they prefer and dont preferer, i can also deduct from my own feelings what i would consider fair or painful and relate to the rest. Not being immoral just because youd get judged is just freaking selfish.
MrMorax94 6 months ago
A sense of good and evil? lol Wow kid. We know what's wrong and what's right because we are smart. We don't need someone to tell us to be good.lol You do. I can give you a reason not to kill that women. Because I know its wrong to take a life. If humans just killed people for no reason. then there would be no humans. Animals don't have a god but they don't all kill other animals for no reason. They don't all kill each other. You are so ignorant.
SuperMrAtheist 7 months ago
We are raised in a moral society, that's why you shouldn't push old dears down stairs. However each society has it's own morals. Christians believe that burning bodies is wrong, yet hindus believe that putting people in boxes in the ground is wrong. Your morals are dictated by the society you are raised in, not by gawd! If your only reason for not doing a terrible thing is fear of reprisal then i worry for your moral compass.
Nickijah 8 months ago
so the reason you're not an evil motherfucker is because god's got his hand on the lever and you don't wanna got to hell? *enter sarcasm mode* yeah that's a real good reason to help people and not hurt them. cause everyone knows there's no such thing as a genuinely nice person. good thing hell's there to keep us in check! *Sarcasm Off*
tvesrb 10 months ago
poeple dont shove old ladies down stairs cuz its a jackass move not cuz some magic asshole is gonna send me to some "hell"
coltard15 10 months ago
IF SOMEONE PUT A KNIFE TO YOUR FACE AND SAID,"you have a choice whether you want to love me or not, but just so you know, if you don't i will cut your face and slice you up and torture you" THAT WOULD BE A THREAT RIGHT? what is the difference between that and what you think your GOD GIVEN FREE WILL IS? god says you can choose, but if not you will burn forever? hmm sounds like a threat, NOT LOVE.
evelauds 11 months ago
this guy is so grotesque and smug. He has to be a troll. He HAS to.
creejay 11 months ago
Atheism does not explain anything.
stevehayes13 11 months ago
The Spanish Inquisition, The Salem Witch Trials, and The Crusades. these are some of the things you should research into. In addtion i leave with this quote - Men Never do evil so completely and cheefully as when they it from religious coviction
-Blaise Pascal
mmmthatsgoodham1 11 months ago
Atheism is disbelief in ALL gods, not just your bronze age tribal totem deity. Let's pretend that objective, absolute morality really does exist but was actually created by a god YOU personally don't FEAR judgment from or believe in (like Odin, Zeus, Allah, Enki, Enlil, etc etc etc). Would that make YOU morally capable of killing old ladies on a whim?
Syrinx69 11 months ago
I don't need someone else to see, because I would. I would see and I would feel guilty because I have empathy and compassion for other human beings.
Atheists want a civil society because it helps all of us. Anarchy would not provide the peace, comfort, ease of living, and happiness modern societies now enjoy.
trj1370 11 months ago
If you only shy away from doing wrong beacuase you'll be edventually punished and you only do good so you can get reward (I.e. heaven) then that's just sad.
kickiwi 1 year ago
Well... remember when you were a kid and wrote on the walls or pushed your dinner off of the table. Thats not good but you didn't know until someone else told you. If you didn't know or society doesnt frown upon it its okay.
kickiwi 1 year ago
Being a Christian is totally and 100% faith based. there is no point in trying to prove it, because in the end of the day people are going to believe in what they wanna believe in. let them believe in what they want peacefully, as so they allow us to believe in what we want to also. we should be tolerant and respectful of all religions. nough said. -Christian lady
jessyxbby94 1 year ago
This right here is why the notion of religion scares me. The idea that My actions are not governed by what I feel is right and wrong, but by my fear of being punished by a higher being. As in your example, you have the stick, god has the gun. Therein he defines your moral code, and dictates how you shall live. I much prefer to live as a person who does good because i want to do good, and resist any temptation to do evil because that is who I want to be, not because I want the treats as a reward.
Zedwork 1 year ago
Nobody ever claimed that atheism could explain morality. The conscience is explained by evolutionary psychology and sociology. What if god told you to throw the old lady down the stairs? Would you do it?
Godlesspanther 1 year ago
Your argument FAILS. If you're a Christian, you know that as long as you repent and believe in Christ, you'll be forgiven for your sins. So there is no consequence for murdering the old lady. If you're an atheist, then you're free of the insane Biblical version of morality, and you know that you are responsible for your actions, and that it hurts us all if people freely commit murder. So you are restrained by your own intelligence, not some myth. "Moral" is how you act when NO ONE is watching!
DandAinTac 1 year ago
it seems that a lot of atheists have been giving you adequate responses to your question.
sum1unxpected 1 year ago
I stopped listening at 1:20. If the only thing keeping you from pushing an old woman down a flight of stairs is your fear of judgement, and not your ability to empathize with that woman and project the results of being pushed down stairs onto yourself, to be able to imagine what it would be like if it happened to you, then you are honestly a horrible person. I pity you.
Atheists don't need cosmic babysitters. We understand why things are wrong all by ourselves.
OneTripleZero 1 year ago
P.S. Stay the hell off the old lady's yard!
bf1tz 1 year ago
If you people need the bible in order to know what is right and wrong, then you're already fucked. Reasons to not kill old lady: Too much effort, not worth it, easier to ignore, I wouldn't want to be killed just because someone doesn't like me, what about her family, what about my family, what about my neighbors. Morality is simple. Your bible is immoral that is why this is so hard for you to get.
bf1tz 1 year ago
Your video is good, your style is funny, but you didn't prove your point.
As an atheist, I wouldn't kill an old lady because I would feel bad about it. This is atheistic morality based on feelings. You don't need a bible when God speaks inside your heart. The bible would only confuse you more.
Guildhelm 1 year ago
Well even though i don't agree with you at least your willing to admit that this is your opinion and not an accrual fact for all.
inquiry10 1 year ago
the reason I wouldnt push this old lady down the stairs is because I dont see enough reason to.
if this old lady had killed my family or something I would push her for revenge.
but for the reasons you gave? nah, i wouldnt push her because I dont have enough quarrel with her.
and not pushing her down the stairs just because god is watching is the opposite of integrity honestly.
SecularNumanist 1 year ago
Matthew 10:22 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
John 15:18 "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.
John 15:21 They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the One who sent me.
Proverbs 29:27 The righteous detest the dishonest; the wicked detest the upright.
6liked---32dislikes(and more coming). Enough said : (
LampPlaceThing 1 year ago
Why shouldn't you push an old lady down the stairs? Empathy. If you think morality is god-given, I really think you should look into feral children.
yermomsboxx 1 year ago
A christian wouldn't do it because they're afraid of being judged, an atheist wouldn't do it because its wrong.
oMTVkilledRock 1 year ago
Around 2:15 you say we can all agree that humans have an innate sense of right and wrong. Then you add, "Theists say, God put it there." I'm assuming by your name that you are a Christian and therefore know the story of Adam and Eve. Then you also know that according to myth, God did not give us any sense of morality or right and wrong. Instead, we gained that sense when we ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Afterwards, we were punished for gaining our morality.
TheHollywoodSims 1 year ago
So lets have Anarchy!
Let everyone kill whom-ever they want.
There is one problem though; anyone who goes around killing people, will make enemies; and there is always someone who is faster/stronger/better or has more friends. You will quickly end up with bloodfeuds. So, families combine to make clans; and clans combine to create countries; and voilá, we're back to where we are now.
Violence is not a lasting solution, and there is no need for a God to make that trivial connection.
ydyammo 1 year ago
An atheist could give a million reasons not to push the lady down the stairs.
But I think most would use the ethos is "What goes around comes around".
I do not push the old lady, because that would create a society in which I would not want to live.
No need for a hocus-pocus daddy in the sky scaring me into "not pushing the lady".
Q.E.(frekking).D
ydyammo 1 year ago
So, the only reason you wouldn't push the old lady down the stairs is that you fear punishment from your all loving god? Stay away from me then!
Keep in mind that atheism doesn't say anything about moral values. That is a straw man argument. Atheism is simply the rejection of a theistic claim of a gods existence, nothing else. It doesn't even say that a god is not possible.
Failure is yours!
InStunnedDisbelief 1 year ago
Why should we not do it...?
Hmmm let me think for a moment, that ones a stumper...oh wait, I know.
Being human, presumably the old lady is too, I have a really good idea how another human or their family/friends is going to feel being pushed down some stairs, have their ice-cream stolen, their tribe wiped from the face of the earth etc.
So, I don't do it because I don't like causing other humans discomfort because I can *empathise* with them...
Solved. No mention of god. Is there a prize?
D4N1CU5 1 year ago
Of course, people don't always act well. Someone might kill a person he identifies as being of other politics, race or religion. It is this opposition to outsiders that allows people to plant bombs or fly planes into buildings. The person he is attacking does not represent his group and so the attacker feels no guilt, particularly if his group condones it, no matter what God thinks. Might not a Christian push the woman down the steps if he knew she had been an abortion doctor earlier in life?
Ergonowt 1 year ago
I am an atheist. I think we can agree that most people wouldn't push the old lady down. You believe it is God telling you that you will be punished in the next life. I think it is down to the fact that it gave us an evolutionary advantage to co-operate in groups. Clearly, any species that kills one of its own every time it encounters one is not going to survive very long. A vole on the riverbank may hiss at an invader of its own species rather than kill it.
Ergonowt 1 year ago
So your mentality is that people should be good to save themselves so they get the ticket to heaven on "judgement day", rather than be good for the benefit of the lady, in this case.
The way I see the Christian mentality is this: Be good for God, so that you can get to heaven. So really, you are just being good for yourself, not for the benefit of others.
See what I'm getting at?
guitarguy8484 1 year ago
Jesus bless you brother in Christ!
Freddymack1000 1 year ago
You're trying to construct a senario without witnesses. What about the old lady? What if she survived?
zombinekiller 1 year ago
I dont want to be rude but here it goes.
Morality= vastly a product based on social indoctrination. Any smart person who has studied/read studies on how children "learn" morality would know this.
Damn some people are narrow-minded.
The "Old Lady Argument" is a gross simplification on the human sense of morality. And i think its far more honourable to not do it because one was taught so than because some scary god figure will punish you if you do it.
Atamv 1 year ago
A good persons morals dont derive from the fear of being punished. You shouldn't push her down not because it would benefit you in the long run (that'd be selfish), but because religion aside, atheist or theist, you should know in your heart that would be a sick thing to do.
bucket021 1 year ago
Ah, religious people, the only people who have to have a really good reason not to beat down an old lady... It's pretty sad when you need to feel like you'll be punished if you PUSH AN OLD LADY DOWN. Holy shit, man, how sad is that?!
MrZeus7 1 year ago
You tried this once before and failed.
Why did you think the outcome would be different?
Oh yeah ,,,, nevermind.
lupocephalic 1 year ago
... conclusions like "GOD DID IT" ... and try to do a bit research your self ... because keep in mind, in history of human race, people were often wrong when they rush to conclusions and said "GOD DID IT" .. ex: Lighting, earthquakes, human birth, death, sickness, deformities etc. etc. etc. ... But it might come too harsh when put this way, but simply put. I would push because i think if you do good things, people are more likely to return the favor.
davelantor 1 year ago
Let me give you the answer than :)
Its genetics. Species that live in packs got the what can be cold protective instinct, defend other members, like mothers and their children. The packs with this instinct will be more likely to survive, because they stick together and co-exists. Naturally this trait passes on from generation to generation, benefiting the species that has it. Humans have this too. Its simple as that. If that doesn't satisfy you, i would still recommend not jumping into ........
davelantor 1 year ago
Since you understand that all humans (who aren't mentally ill) have this feeling that it would be wrong to push the old lady, your argument boils down to the fact that you believe God put that feeling there. But beliefs don't prove anything.
Griexxt 1 year ago
thats the lamest argument i have heard !!!!! EVER ! so u dont push her because u are afraid of gods punishment ? not because u believe in forgiveness ? and here is an answer for you !!! atheist: it would be irrational to kill the old woman for her irrationality ! and if your a rational man u wont do it ! and guess what animals also have the since of right and wrong after all you dont see them killing each other and murdering each other ! and btw most criminals claim to be Christian ! so yeah !!!
salimtp 1 year ago
Try looking up the evolution of altruism.
You will look less foolish, if you educate yourself on a topic before making videos about it.
TychoCelchu 1 year ago
It's only wrong if you're punished? Do you have a conscience, empathy or a memory? If you have a conscience, you can probably see that hurting her will cause her pain; it will also cause pain to her family and friends. If you have empathy, causing this pain will cause you pain too. If you have a memory, you will remember what you did, you will remember the pain you caused and you will feel pain.
If you have neither conscience, empathy nor memory, then sure; god is up there and will punish you.
athywren 1 year ago
I wouldn't push the lady because I would feel terrible about doing that. I have empathy. I don't do things out of fear of God, that's retarded. Stop embarrassing yourself.
MassacreBlast 1 year ago
If I were an atheist, I wouldn't push the old lady down the stairs because my actions develop habits. My habits define me through my behavior. My behavior helps to shape the society around me by modeling for others (even when I don't know they're looking), especially the next generation of kids who would push me down the damn stairs had they not seen me behave kindly toward the bitch who chased me off of her grass!
Go in grace, partner.
disneypassholder 1 year ago
I don't believe that God is here to give me punishment. I believe that God is here to give me grace. God is love, your argument is circular.
Yours, in Christ
disneypassholder 1 year ago
I always get this icky feeling in my stomach every time I hear someone make the argument that the ONLY reason he does no wrong is fear of punishment. Do you really believe you would go around killing old ladies you dislike if it were not for your fear of hell? Uck!
Many people (atheist, theist, or otherwise) DO NOT agree that we all have an innate sense of right and wrong; many people (atheist, theist, or otherwise) believe that a sense of right and wrong is a product of our biology!
JohnHasSeriousQ 1 year ago 31
@JohnHasSeriousQ If I didn't fear the flying spaghetti monster I would be out on the street mugging, raping, and murdering every old lady I've ever seen on the streets. Damn old ladies, they deserve only death. Then flying spaghetti monster tells me if I don't hurt people I get 72 strippers, and a beer volcano.
GouledXD 1 month ago
@JohnHasSeriousQ Indeed John but as you can see this circular reasoning mental cripple
needs a book written by genocidal slave owning bronze age goat fanciers to stop him pushing that granny down the stairs.
It's sad that people can get that fucked up
Rockster969 1 week ago
I would say morality is a trait instilled on people by their environment (parents, relatives, peers). I Don't think that we are born with a sense of right and wrong ingrained within us. That would also explain why many people have different views on right and wrong. People raised being told it's ok to treat black people as second class citizens will probably act in that way. Peopl who are taught it's they should kill jews (nazis),Tutsi (Hutu) or Muslims (christians during crusades) probably will
theskyfallsin 1 year ago
@theskyfallsin
well if you say that, then what you say is pretty dumb :)
vrod000 1 year ago
The reason you don't do it is because....... are you ready?.... IT'S WRONG!!! And if you need an external source to point that out then I feel sorry for you. I truly do. But I doubt you do. I believe religion has torn you down and put a god as its center so that you give credit to a god for being a decent human being. BTW, all you are doing by making this video is making a case that you have no integrity. That you have to consider a gods punishment when debating whether to do good or bad.
tacoliqour 1 year ago
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First off, I'm a Christian. But this argument is very weak.
Morality, if we're speaking as if it's apart from God, very easily could have developed through evolution. Why wouldn't an atheist kill someone they don't like? Well, in ancient days before there would have been law or even speech, people would not just randomly kill each other because they would fear the same thing happening to them. Morality assists the preservation of species. If we all killed each other, we'd all be dead.
manticore416 1 year ago
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First off, I'm a Christian. But this argument is very weak.
Morality, if we're speaking as if it's apart from God, very easily could have developed through evolution. Why wouldn't an atheist kill someone they don't like? Well, in ancient days before there would have been law or even speech, people would not just randomly kill each other because they would fear the same thing happening to them. Morality assists the preservation of species. If we all killed each other, we'd all be dead.
manticore416 1 year ago
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First off, I'm a Christian. But this argument is very weak.
Morality, if we're speaking as if it's apart from God, very easily could have developed through evolution. Why wouldn't an atheist kill someone they don't like? Well, in ancient days before there would have been law or even speech, people would not just randomly kill each other because they would fear the same thing happening to them. Morality assists the preservation of species. If we all killed each other, we'd all be dead.
manticore416 1 year ago
First off, I'm a Christian. But this argument is very weak.
Morality, if we're speaking as if it's apart from God, very easily could have developed through evolution. Why wouldn't an atheist kill someone they don't like? Well, in ancient days before there would have been law or even speech, people would not just randomly kill each other because they would fear the same thing happening to them. Morality assists the preservation of species. If we all killed each other, we'd all be dead.
manticore416 1 year ago
the only reason you don't want to push a lady down the stairs is because your scared of how you would be judged or punished? the reason i wouldn't is because my parents taught me values, its basic. your own sense of right and wrong is developed when you grow up and your brain develops. No body can ever prove god exists or doesn't.
markj512 1 year ago
I can give you one great reason. because everybody has the natural instict to survive, and people don't like the idea of somebody going around killing people, because you might be next. therefore it is a shunned idea from society, aside from the death penalty. :) don't get me wrong, im buddhist, im just stating something that i think should be obvious
TheDevilWearsATopHat 1 year ago
Also, atheism itself has no capacity as a field of inquiry, so of course it cannot explain our sense of right and wrong, nor could it be expected to.
twsbbl 1 year ago
This is absurd. First, atheism cannot be disproved. It could in theory be eliminated, but never disproved - it is simply a lack of belief in God. There is nothing about it that can be proved or disproved. Second, your old lady argument seems to imply that your own reason, as a Christian, for not offing the old bag is fear of punishment from your God. The correct reason for not sending her tumbling is empathy, and there is a compelling body of research that shows this has neurological basis
twsbbl 1 year ago
I think you're the bigger threat to society as an immoral person: the only reason you don't do harm to others is because you fear punishment.. I'm an atheist and I can justify my morals. Can you?
Verruckter 1 year ago
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You honestly think you're not gonna get caught killing an old woman? Hell, if I hated someone and thought they deserved to die and I know 100% for sure I wouldn't get caught (very unrealistic), I would kill them. I am an athiest.
tinytwinkee20 1 year ago
You honestly think you're not gonna get caught killing an old woman? Hell, if I hated someone and thought they deserved to die and I know 100% for sure I wouldn't get caught (very unrealistic), I would kill them. I am an athiest.
tinytwinkee20 1 year ago
Christianity doesn't explain sociopaths who have no moral values.
I believe that morality could probably be explained through evolution; people who are immoral are more likely to be killed because they are going to piss people off, so they will have less of a chance to reproduce. If you don't believe in evolution, however, it is difficult to think this out rationally. I appreciate this argument, however.
PrivateBuckwheat 1 year ago
I'm a Christian, and personally, I think God does not allow proof of himself. If he did, then where does faith come in?
LazyCoder 1 year ago
It doesn't explain it. Atheism is the lack of god. Therefore, your argument is irrelevant.
FlyingSpahghettiMan 1 year ago
Good and Evil are mere constructs of the Human Consciousness. Only they are affected by 'Morals' and nothing more.
TheNoirMirror 1 year ago
Even though shoving old ladies down stairs is funny as hell. I would probably go to jail for doing it. Plus I would feel bad about it. Would probably have bad dreams. Just ask someone who has killed another person. Most are traumatized by it.
01bdbark 1 year ago
If you're saying that only religion people can have morals then explain to me why I have morals. You had morals before you even heard there was a god. Even dogs know it is wrong when they pee on the carpet and you say "NO! Bad dog!" Argument debunked :)
makeorbreakgirlz 1 year ago 2
so you don't push the old lady because you're affraid god will punish you? so a christian acts out of fear instead of respect?
rangedmicrobe 1 year ago 2
As a Pagan, I shouldn't do it because it harms her. "An' it harm none, do as ye will". I wouldn't want someone to push me down so I shouldn't push someone else down. It has nothing to do with whether or not I get caught, or punished in this life or any other. I want to live in a society where I am safe and respected as a person so I will not work to create a society where people are not safe and respected. What goes around often comes around. This is just common sense.
DancingRabbit52 1 year ago
For another perspective, you'd do well to read Marc Hauser's "Moral Minds: How Nature Designed Our Universal Sense of Right and Wrong."
Moreover, on the facts of your hypothetical, you're not killing the old lady because you're afraid of being punished for doing it, *not* because you bellieve it's wrong.
ProfMTH 1 year ago
That's like saying someone who doesn't enjoy your hobby has no morals unless they make it the hobby and you can't disprove athiesm it's not even an ideology. Dude your retarted.
nextgenvids 1 year ago
so, your saying without god, you would kill the women and would not care about morals? you just said it and this is why most atheist think theist morality is fucked. you do not kill the person because you enjoy life and the person does to
patrickledford420 1 year ago
Ah, the old morality argument. I could refer you to the countless videos and articles that disprove that particular argument, or I could even point out the immorality present in the sacred texts of the world, but instead I present to you the problem of evil. How can an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, and benevolent being allow evil to exist? The answer is, of course, that it can't, but evil does exist, so he can't possibly exist, otherwise you would have a logical contradiction.
gordonisnext 1 year ago
i belive there is a creator. a loving creator. not exactlly 100% jesus and all that. but i think their has to be and i've seen scientfic proof.
wonkerjk 1 year ago
@wonkerjk No you haven't, and if you had, you would either show or cite it, but if there was scientific proof, every person in the first and second worlds would already fucking know about it. You are either referring to some philosophical bullshit, or some creationist propaganda that wasn't strong enough to be peer reviewed so it had to go straight to the bookshelves.
gordonisnext 1 year ago
fucking relax let me belive what i want to belive holy shit fine u dont belive at i respect it but dude calm the fuck down i have watched proof
wonkerjk 1 year ago
@wonkerjk THEN SHOW IT TOO ME! IF THERE IS PROOF OF GOD YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO WITHHOLD IT FROM ME! IF YOU HAVE SCIENTIFIC PROOF WHY HAVEN'T YOU SHOWN IT TO THE WORLD, WHY HAVEN'T YOU SAVED ALL OF THE ATHEISTS? please tell me, i really want to know if there is a god or not, if you have new evidence then i need to see it
gordonisnext 1 year ago
@gordonisnext ill try to find it and then send it to you
wonkerjk 1 year ago
@wonkerjk oh... ok... i eagerly await it, i really do hope its scientific, proof, and of god, because very few people have actually tried to present scientific proof
gordonisnext 1 year ago
Atheism doesn't claim, or have any need to explain morality. It is simply the lack of belief in gods
johntheother 1 year ago 29
Disprove atheism? What is it that you think atheism claims? Atheism only exists because theism exists. All atheism is, is a rejection of the claim that a god exists. It doesn't matter what you believe, that doesn't make me believe. I still don't believe there is a god, therefore I am an atheist, therefore atheism exists. So, just what is it you are trying to disprove? Whatever it is, this old lady argument is...well...lame at best. Why don't our pets rip us apart? Do they believe in god?
JamesMorlan 1 year ago 2
This IS a joke right? If not.. this is the worst argument I have ever heard. If you honestly won't hurt another human being (much less an defenseless old lady) just because you fear god... you need therapy & soon, real soon. The fact that I'm atheist & I care for terminally ill children blows your theory out of the water.
sheri226 1 year ago 2
...and now that I've started to watch your video, I couldn't get more than 1 minute and 30 seconds to see the ridiculousness of your argument. You, it seems, wouldn't push the old lady because an external, arbitrary authority will judge you, whereas I, an atheist would not push the woman because I have no reason to want to cause harm to another being. If your god does exist, who do you think would impress him more, you, who needs to be controlled, or me, who just doesn't wish to cause harm?
Wyglyph 1 year ago
"Proof" is for maths, deductive reasoning and booze, son. Methinks you need to take a course in epistemology. I didn't even need to watch a second of your video to spot this glaring fallacy in your thinking. If you want your e-pinions to be taken seriously, you need to get control of some basic critical thinking tenets.
Wyglyph 1 year ago
even though we cant give an adequate answer to your satisfaction, we've convinced ourselves why its wrong, if you need God's judgment to prevent you from doing it, then too bad. you cant explain why some still chose to do it, either they dont know, or they dont care.
funwjoshnjenn 1 year ago
1. Not all humans feel guilt and not all humans fear supernatural punishment. BUT even if they did...
2. Humans are built from their genes. If something (such as the fear of being watched) is built into you, it does not mean you are being watched, it means that you inherited the right genes to build that into you. Why those genes? Because the lack of that fear could have made your ancestors take more risks, leading to your not being concieved.
3. Actions have consequences, expected or not.
funningincircles 1 year ago
You remove video reactions that show you contradicting yourself.
You lying censoring douchbag.
cursingyorick 1 year ago
Your beginning premise, that we need to explain this sense of good and evil we have, presupposes we have a sense of good and evil that is innate. tooltime9901 and smpunditz have pounded this idea of objective morality into the dirt. This is old hat. You apologists really need to come up with some new material that hasn't already been thoroughly killed to death.
DeimosSaturn 1 year ago
@JohnHenryAlex like I said though I'm not the judge so idk , nor am someone who studies scripture a lot, but I'd assume that those who didn't know God in life would be judged rightly by Jesus.
"if those who have not heard or understood the gospel make it to heaven, it will not be because they deserved it, but because of the amazing love and saving work of Jesus Christ—whether they heard of it or not. He is “the Saviour of the world” (John 4:42; 1 John 4:14)"
jeffscoo 1 year ago
@JohnHenryAlex well I see it as if you know God and reject him then that's your fault and you will be judged.
"For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Romans" 1:21
"See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God." Hebrews 3:12
these two verses support it, I'll still look into it but I think people misinterpret stuff.
jeffscoo 1 year ago
@JohnHenryAlex Good point. If only God had been a bit more clear in his word there wouldn't be so many disagreements and missunderstandings. But really how is an all knowing deity supposed to foresee that problem...
Shaobaal 1 year ago
@JohnHenryAlex Sadly you are correct. Which means if you factor in infant mortality rates around the globe for the past 2000 years, the population of hell is mostly made up of children. What boggles the mind even more is that God knew these children wouldn't survive until the age of reason. Meaning he created these souls just to go to hell.
Shaobaal 1 year ago
@JohnHenryAlex nope I honestly just think you didn't understand what I was trying to say, maybe I'm wrong, but I honestly don't think that anyone should say who is or isn't going here or there based on a couple of verses b/c yea Jesus is the way to life, but if Jesus is the perfect judge (not us, thank God) then I'd assume for anyone who never really had the choice of accepting him in life on earth wouldn't get sent to hell for indirectly rejecting him.
jeffscoo 1 year ago
Good and evil are words that we use to describe certain actions. The vast majority of people would say that pushing the old lady is "evil". This is because pushing the old lady does harm to her. It has absolutely nothing to do with a god and this does not "disprove" atheism.
I do good because I care about others not because I fear a final judgement.
Morality is subjective.
RationalConclusion 1 year ago
Why don't I push her? Because I have this thing called empathy.
Why shouldn't I? I don't know. Do you?
s23b 1 year ago
I don't think God is going to fall for your "pretending to be nice for fear of punishment" ruse. Then again all theistic Gods are about as smart as the people espousing them. So who knows, maybe it's worth a shot.
Shaobaal 1 year ago
People feel a sense of right and wrong because we evolved that sense. Morality does not prove anything, let alone the existence of something super incredible gigantic big like gods.
mrptchfrk 1 year ago
we all love you sort off... But really mate or you own health, clear up. Stop the youtube think for yourself, think think think. When you go to bed dont think i did it great i made another video pwning the athests, but just think........... It will help you in many ways!
lnmylife 1 year ago
I am a Christian and I am familiar with, accept, and even have videos arguing for the moral argument. That being said, "final judgment" has little to nothing to do with the moral argument. If "final judgement" is really the reason you do not push the old lady, then it has nothing to do with morality. Instead of doing "good" you are just doing what is in your best interest. In other words.. you are refraining from pushing her for selfish, pragmatic reasons.. not moral ones.
Epydemic2020 1 year ago
As a Christian it doesn't matter if you push her, because you are only good because of God, and all He cares is whether you love him or not.
As an atheist, I'm good because I have empathy hard-wired in me. I'm good by nature - and guess what, so are you. Christianity just makes you think you are a worthless sinner without God.
maisteri 1 year ago 25
@maisteri
part of the christian message is to love others as yourself, it's not just the love for God that is important, b/c he loves us and wants us to love him and let him help us become better people.
jeffscoo 1 year ago
@jeffscoo The Christian dogma says, that ultimately the only criterion for receiving a ticket to heaven is that you believe in god. You can be a homicidal rapist, but as long as you believe in god, you're safe. On the other hand, if you are the most peace-loving person in the world, but you don't believe, he will let you suffer.
But, back to the point: If some god is the only reason you do good things, you are a horrible person and I hope you keep believing.
maisteri 1 year ago 19
@maisteri the thing is though I believe that if we truly love God with all our hearts and accept him for who he is which means we accept what he's done for us then we will be changed by his spirit and desire to grow to be more like him which means we'd be taking his word more seriously, his message of love. So for the believer who refuses to repent and accept the way of life preached through the gospels then he will be judged for he has fallen idol to his sin not putting God ahead of sin in life
jeffscoo 1 year ago
@maisteri (cont.) I'm not the judge so idk what God's call will be on the unbelievers, but I don't personally accept that he will send all them to hell b/c in a lot of cases that would be just unfair for a lot of people and if God's the perfect judge then that doesn't make sense. for example someone who grew up in a secular home who sees no way there could be a God; judgment based on that is unfair b/c they didn't know and thus they didn't deliberately reject God, only technically did they.
jeffscoo 1 year ago
@jeffscoo There was a missionary doing works in a remote place in the Congo. He was speaking to the natives about Jesus and how if they accept him as their lord, they would be granted eternal life in heaven. Else they would burn in hell forever. So one of the natives asks "What happens to people who never had the oppertunetly to accept Jesus?"
"Well, they get into heaven because they couldn't have known any better" to which the native replied "Then why are you telling us this?"
Shaobaal 1 year ago 2
@Shaobaal if we know of Jesus on Earth it's a gift and our responsibility is to grow with the Lord and to spread the good news the way of life on Earth, if God is real and Jesus is the way then the fact that we know about and have received him in our lives should be enough for us to truly want to live the life of love that Christ calls us to. For the people in the Congo if they received him into their lives I personally believe they'd feel the same way.
jeffscoo 1 year ago
@jeffscoo So you would risk another persons eternal soul just to tell them about Jesus? That's quite the gamble with someone else life. I find that to be quite immoral. I also think someone who sacrifices themselves in my place without asking me is immoral. But I guess that's because morality is subjective.
Shaobaal 1 year ago
@Shaobaal well as I said I'm not the judge, but if people honestly don't see how Jesus is the way or how God the Father is real, regardless of whether they heard someone talk to them about God or not, I don't see how that would count against them it's beyond their understanding imo.
for the rest of what your comment says w/ the sacrifice being immoral and morality argument I just see things differently then you obviously b/c I'm a Christian.
jeffscoo 1 year ago
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jeffscoo 1 year ago
@jeffscoo It's immoral because he didn't ask. Also it's just a bad idea. Would you be willing to release all people in prison and lump the combined sentences onto one person? Not only does that not make sense (especially for an all powerful God) but it's incredibly immoral.
Shaobaal 1 year ago
@Shaobaal so is it immoral for me to help you up if you fall, if I didn't ask if you wanted the help? I just don't understand what you mean by that point you're trying to make. As for the prisoner point I believe God will judge us all but I also believe he loves us more than we could ever know and it's b/c of that love that he made the sacrifice for us, so we may gain understanding of the example he was trying to set. like I said I try to understand scripture and see the sacrifice as just.
jeffscoo 1 year ago
@jeffscoo It would not be immoral unless I told you not to help me. But It's polite to ask "do you need help?" before assisting someone. Giving assistance where it's not welcome IS immoral. I never asked Jesus to bear my sin, in fact he never gave me a chance to say no (which I would have). And since I believe that only i'm accountable for my own actions, he had no right to take my burden. And what do you call it when someone takes something of yours without permission? Theft.
Shaobaal 1 year ago
@Shaobaal while I understand your point now but I don't think asking for assistance is necessary in this case b/c I believe this is a matter of life (w/God) or death (w/out him). I think a better ex, of what I meant, is imagine a life guard saving a kid drowning, it's immoral not to save the kid.
jeffscoo 1 year ago
@jeffscoo The problem with this analogy is that no one hired the lifeguard, and it was he who put the kid in the pool in the first place. Knowing well beforehand that he would drown.
Shaobaal 1 year ago
@Shaobaal "Knowing well beforehand that he would drown."
Well in order for us to be truly free God had to give us ability to choose to follow him or not to. I believe God is good in nature, and so if he is then if we reject him then darkness follows. I don't take at least the first ch. of Genesis literally but the story means the same, God gave them the choice to follow or not, they didn't and so death followed as a result.
jeffscoo 1 year ago
@jeffscoo Having two choices does not demonstrate free will very well. How about the free will to be left alone? No bowing or eternal torture. Because to me i'm in a lose lose situation. Forced love or torture. And if God already knew our future actions before he created us how can free will work?
Shaobaal 1 year ago
@Shaobaal I think that the choice requires no thought and while one reason why is b/c of the nonexistent pros that are outweighed by the cons of the other choice that's not the main reason why. In life I believe everything I do can be worship, if it's without sin it can be worship and so I assume heaven won't just be eternal mass, and that like Jesus said on the cross to that one dude, today we'll be in paradise I assume since God loves us he wants us to be happy.
jeffscoo 1 year ago
@jeffscoo "I think that the choice requires no thought" No it really does because it's a cruel and immoral choice for a loving God to impose.
Shaobaal 1 year ago
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jeffscoo 1 year ago
@jeffscoo No worries, but I can say so much more. And I have many more questions. I noticed on your page it says you want to do refutations. So you should be well prepared. I also noticed you have similar taste in music as I do, Kudos!
Shaobaal 1 year ago
@Shaobaal "I noticed on your page it says you want to do refutations. So you should be well prepared." I know :p lol
"I also noticed you have similar taste in music as I do, Kudos!" ty if I ever get a hold of a camera drum vids will probably be what I post for the most part
jeffscoo 1 year ago
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@Shaobaal "No it really does because it's a cruel and immoral choice for a loving God to impose."
Clearly we see differently on this, take my points of view as you please. idk what more I can say on this other than what I said.
jeffscoo 1 year ago
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@Shaobaal "No it really does because it's a cruel and immoral choice for a loving God to impose."
uggh I keep trying to post a comment but it wouldn't but anyways, clearly we see differently on this, take my points of view as you please. idk what more I can say in regards to this other than what i've already said.
jeffscoo 1 year ago
@Shaobaal "And if God already knew our future actions before he created us how can free will work?"
I won't get into the all knowing freewill point now b/c to be honest I never really looked much into it yet.
jeffscoo 1 year ago
@jeffscoo ok, how about this then: How did God create time when time is a prerequisite for the act of creation?
Shaobaal 1 year ago
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@Shaobaal "ok, how about this then: How did God create time when time is a prerequisite for the act of creation?"
time is a concept, time exist within our existence b/c God at some point billions of years ago, probably, caused everything to be. or so I believe.
jeffscoo 1 year ago
@Shaobaal (cont.) I believe salvation is based on whether we accept Jesus who is the way to life w/ The Father, the one who brought forth our existence. but we're accountable for our actions we can chose to do what we want but we will be judged for the right and wrong we've done. the sacrifice was done so that we may understand God's love and that he is just.
jeffscoo 1 year ago
@jeffscoo "the sacrifice was done so that we may understand God's love and that he is just."
But I, like many people think that taking someones sin without asking is unjust. So he seems to have failed in that regard. Was a blood sacrifice really necessary for an all loving (all powerful) God? I don't know any normal person who requires the torture and slaying of a third party, in order to earn their (potential) forgiveness.
Shaobaal 1 year ago
"But I, like many people think that taking someones sin without asking is unjust." I'm sorry but I personally see his intentions as good and trying to help us, so I don't understand how that isn't just.
jeffscoo 1 year ago
@jeffscoo The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Shaobaal 1 year ago
@Shaobaal (cont.) from the part of your comment I quoted.
The reason I see it as just is b/c he who allowed us to be w/him provided us a way that wouldn't go against our freedom to choose, life with him b/c of the sacrifice. In other words God gave us freedom to choose and we rejected him so death followed and sin became our nature. Jesus who overcame sin gives us life if we accept what he did and him for who he is, and w/ that choice comes life with God who I believe helps us grow in love.
jeffscoo 1 year ago
@jeffscoo But remember what this choice is: Love me or be tortured for eternity. This is not how love works.
Shaobaal 1 year ago
@Shaobaal "But remember what this choice is: Love me or be tortured for eternity. This is not how love works."
you're right in that that's the choice. but I personally believe God is good so I see it as you accept him or reject him. with rejection comes darkness with acceptance comes light. Rejection wouldn't really be a choice b/c of how illogical it is to take that. but nonetheless it's a choice to be made that can't be sugarcoated. why should he be there for us if we reject him?
jeffscoo 1 year ago
@jeffscoo He shouldn't, he should just leave us be. That would be the loving and moral thing to do. If someone doesn't love you do you shoot them in the back as they walk away?
Shaobaal 1 year ago
@Shaobaal "He shouldn't, he should just leave us be. That would be the loving and moral thing to do. If someone doesn't love you do you shoot them in the back as they walk away?"
but if he can better us in more ways than one then why wouldn't you want it other than that you aren't given the choice to not be involved with him? Imo he's not like a clingy girl friend, he's more like a parent an eternal parent, and like a parent they let us go so we can grow but with our actions come consequences.
jeffscoo 1 year ago