Are you kidding me! If you are stupid enough to marry someone you would suspect of divorcing you, you have more problems than how much money she could take from you. Also, if you would get married under such circumstances it is highly likely you are not even a man and just a boy who thinks marriage is about what you get out of it. Grow up and be a man.
these two hosts are full of shit. the bitch in white is going with her instincts but the bitch on the right is being stupid. once his wife leaves him and takes half his shit he'll wish he had a prenup.
holy shit what world does this guy live in like seriously divorce is up to 80% and most of them are filed by women and thats a fact and at the divorce they want every 80% of the money the house and alimony, Prenup agreement is a must nowadays it will chase off gold diggers and thoes who refuse to sign simply don't marry them stay the way yous are and she wont be entiled to shit!
@Sephiroth1984 Yeah same here man he seems to be brainwashed its unromantic and what not, But trust me the day hes wife decides to leave him he will be giving everything to her i mean EVERYTHING and to top it all off after 10 years of marriage which they seem to pass he will have to pay her alimony for the rest of her life! Me personally im having prenup agreement because lets face it the court system is acomplete joke. If you're ever gonna get married get prenup! Thank feminism
Yup. Mark Driscoll needs to do what he always fails to do when he tries to live in this fantasy world of old-school chivalry: acknowledge the existence of feminism. i.e. women who mean men harm and succeed in doing them harm. He and many others like to think that every failing a woman has can be traced back to some man somewhere.
It's a dangerous world for men with guys like Mark Driscoll in it--in complete denial of the fact that women can and do cause men harm.
@Sephiroth1984 Bro hes a complete jack ass who did not experience it first hand and he will eventually.Most women dont wont to work they want to sit on they ass all day doing NOTHING! and then a year later they want divorce and they want you're money the house will be sold so she gets half and alimony prob for the rest of her life and for what for her to sit on her all DAY DOING NOTHING. Yes it is dangerous and women do cause men harm and they think they are Superior then us LOL?
Yeah I think Driscoll and his wife wouldn't say "no" if the divorce courts weren't notoriously biased against men and were harsh to women instead. They love rushing to the defense of women.
pfffttplease no woman wants a pre-nup....she sees leaving as an out....and wants to get paid when its done.....to me its marital insurance-not a trust issue at all
Marriage SHOULD be built on trust - true. However, if one party is bringing considerably more (cash) asset value into the relationship; it is only very very wise to have in place a ready agreement, as people can change, and with that change covetous moral decline may increase. Ask Me how I know these this?
If there is no plan to divorce, what is the harm of having a pre-nup?
Any woman who is sure she won't divorce him doesn't need to hold onto the option of robbing the guy via divorce court, which is the option that a pre-nup ends.
i am not saying yes or no on the Prenup agreement,but just giving a ideal. Prenup agreement last for 10 years and 1 second and it is nul and void. now a post nupual [After you get married] agreement is good for a life time ! I know a fellow who ask his future wife for a Prenup Agreement and she said yes OK ! Then a week later she ask him when are you going to get the Prenup wrote up. He said I don't need one for you told me what I wanted to know ! They have been married over 40 yrs. !
I watch because I find Driscoll helpful. His views are molded by scripture. It's a challenge to find a guy who is culturally relevant and Biblically solid. Guys, I don't have time to waste waging a war on every questionable viewpoint.
Sometimes pre-nups are for the marriages themselves, like Mark said.There are so many divorcees out there, and I almost wish I had had a prenup before marrying a guy with kids. Just to set the expectations, because traditional marriage counseling and parameters don't work well in a remarriage situation. This is due to the fact that those parameters make assumptions that certain conditions will automatically exist. It's different in 2nd marriages, very different
@ninasju in that case the "guy" needs to explain that you are not the new mommy or the housemade or the "next one". You are his other half now and there is no yours or mine. Its ours...
@PaulStowe1 Unfortunately he didn't. He put them as his "other half", honored and elevated them above me in all circumstances, and 16 years later my husband and I are living on separate floors of the same house, and my stepkids and I no longer speak. I entered into a caste system as an "untouchable" when I married. Unfortunately, this is an all too common scenario. The did a study on lives of stepmothers in the book, "Stepmonster", and it's striking how similar our experiences all are
What Mark is saying is basically "people don't change".
Which is a LIE. People change. Every day. Some people work all their lives for their hard earned money only to have their beloved other CHANGE and move onto other interest.
And you cannot control if your partner decides to keep God as the glue of your marriage, can you?
If you think you can control your partner during your marriage, you're probably doing it with fear and threats of violence. Take your narrow-minded hat off and think about it. There are good men and women out there, who work hard, praise God, fight everyday to put God first in their marriage - then they change that's BEYOND your control.
And you cannot control if your partner decides to keep God as the glue of your marriage, can you?
If you think you can control your partner during your marriage, you're probably doing it with fear and threats of violence. Take your narrow-minded hat off and think about it. There are good men and women out there, who work hard, praise God, fight everyday to put God first in their marriage - then they change that's BEYOND your control.
With over half marriages ending in divorce and usually the woman leaving the husband taking his house, half his assets, all the children and getting a sizable portion of the man's income for the next 15 years because "The children (=she) has grown custom to the expensive live style" only a brainwashed/unthinking man wouldn't get a prenup. Feminism killed marriage. With the current laws it's insane to get married without a prenup as a man.
@YksiSuomalainen I notice how everything is belongs to the man in your eyes. Women never work toward the home, or give birth to these children you speak of?
@Key300 I think the children should be divided by gender. Boys to the father and girls to the mother, if both want them. Child support payments should be reasonable to what the child actually needs (no 20000€ per month child support payments.) Robbing a house from the house's actual owner and alimony are just criminal and should not even exist. The prenup agreement should already state how assets will be divided.
@Key300 Easy to say when with the current system the female gets them all by default. Maybe you think a fairer system would be that the father gets them all ? You have to understand that somekind of compromise has to be done here.
Then I am the "Wrong Guy". I won't show up at the alter if a prenup is not signed. Marrying todays women is like playing russian roulette with 5 bullets in the chamber. To any man who is actually believes what was said in this video and takes it to heart...best of luck. Maybe you can ask Mark and Grace if you can move in with them once you loose your home, and forced to pay alimony when your divorce comes.
@stusenrab Haha. I completely agree! It's like, okay, you are clearly wanting to marry this person, but here's the deal, at some point that person may change (Christian or not) and you may get divorced. That doesn't mean you conduct your marriage as if at any point you're going to get divorced, it's just being proactive from the getgo so you don't be made a fool of down the road. The pre-nup agreement may never have to be used, but you don't want to be in the boat where you wished you had one!
@Logansbl But still, where is your faith that God if you get one? If your marrying someone "under God" way would you ever doubt them? By the time I felt like I had to be "proactive" or shield myself against the possiblity of being made a fool, I would walk away from that person. I married my wife 7 years ago after dating for only 45 days and never had a thought about ANYTHING other than, this is her, the one he sent for me.
@Logansbl But still, where is your faith in God if you get one? If your marrying someone "under God" way would you ever doubt them? By the time I felt like I had to be "proactive" or shield myself against the possiblity of being made a fool, I would walk away from that person. I married my wife 7 years ago after dating for only 45 days and never had a thought about ANYTHING other than, this is her, the one he sent for me.
You know why this country has nukes? Probably because it is to deter war and invasion. Just 'cause you are getting married is no reason to not protect each other. It's about protection from ourselves not about mistrust. In all actuality all men, and women are liars. So why not protect eachother from ourselves. I think that is the more responsible way to make a foundation. We all have checks and balances, govts., businesses and the like. So marriage is not really that different.
@BSmenot It's an interesting perspective, but marriage is based on a covenant, ordained by God. Do you trust God? If not, then I suppose you don't trust anything. I agree that the world is an exceedingly evil place, but seriously, I didn't enter into a relationship with Christ with a piece of paper that put limits on how he will use my life.
Prenuptial agreements should exist by default. Not getting a prenuptial agreement is a breach of trust. If you truly trust the person you're marrying, then why should you have a financial backup plan in case things go sour?
I can get on board with this. My girl and I will likely have one, but it's not for fear of divorce issues per se so much as inheritance issues from her parents' businesses. I agree fully that I shouldn't have any part of that, so it's cool.
I do not completely agree or disagree with his stance. When ppl get on track to getting married, they get caught up in infatuation that that they may lose track of reality. I do however agree that money should not be a factor in evaluating a relationship
@jonathonwwilliams - Because this is an open forum of free speech in which this video has been made available. You can't be angry because some one criticizes something you believe. If the video has merit, it's arguments will stand up under scrutiny, no matter how fallacious the attack.
@jonathonwwilliams If you AGREE why are you watching it? You already have the opinion just have it and live with it. When we disagree and watch its because we like to hear the opposing view to grow intellectually. And then, in some cases, when the opposing opinion is so transcendently stupid that you need to laugh at it and mock it...THEN WE COMMENT.
@jonathonwwilliams Huh?? How would a critique give an informative opinion, without first watching it? Further more, if Mark wants to make opinionated generalizations possibly easily made because His wife is beside Him in "loving" acknowledging support; it may be making it very easy to be skeptical in Mark's motivational reasonings.
Seriously.. i think prenuptial are necessary sometimes in cases of marriage especially when money is involved. The Ketubah for example is a Jewish prenuptial agreement. Why not have one such as the Ketubah. It helps so the people who arent in it for love can't get your money too. I mean if your a millionaire and you treat ur wife like a queen their nothing wrong with the prenuptial.
Do either of you know anything about family law? Marriage is both secular and religious. Secular marriage is akin to the formation of a corporation. It should be done on terms comfortable to both parties. If one partner in the marriage is uncomfortable with existing state law, the couple should sign a prenup to modify the law as it applies to that couple. Why should either party have to put themselves in a position to be taken advantage of legally? Such a position fosters MISTRUST, not trust.
Mark Driscoll has attempted to distance himself from mainstream Christianity by faux hawks, jeans, and yelling. But he's cut of the same cloth as any other religious leader of the past century. Much as he likes to rag on "Religious" people and act all "edgy", he's still chauvinistic, close-minded, ignorant, and irrelevant.
yeah but brian you say marriages in the church aren't much better....there are A LOT of people in the church who aren't real christians, don't take christianity seriously (just go because they always have, or social reasons), and don't truly follow jesus...if you look at the stats of real christians who have a solid christ-centered foundation...numbers would skyrocket...these types of christians/marriages/lives are what mars hill promotes
I know everyone is thumbsdowning you, but to a degree you're right. I think the harsh language you used is part of the reason. I agree that there are so many false churches nowadays, but Mark Driscolls is one of the few that is far from false. It really is a biblical, sound church. If you go to his website and listen to a few of his sermons, I think they could really help. His churches name is Mars Hill in Seattle. Check it out.
PART 3... Above all, we must be realistic about it. Would Mark and his wife hand a contractor $100,000.00 cash with no contract to remodel their house or expect a church member to do the same ... and say if they can't do that don't use the contractor because that shows a lack of trust? There is a difference IMO between trust and caution. You can trust a person and use caution. People change over time for better or worse. Use caution. Never be in a position where you can lose everything. GBY
Marriage is supposed to give glory to God. It is suppose to represent Christ and the church. Now, where does Christ leave himself an out with the church? Marriage for the believer is different compared to the world. This is from a Christian view. This is why the selection is key, not so much the ceremony. Trust with caution in marriage? That would mean one or the other does not love Christ enough to commit for a lifetime to their spouse. Let God give us our views. Our views are tainted.
I respectfully disagree with you.Your thoughts are the very essence of why marriages in the church are no different than outside of the church.You said "never be in a position where you can lose everything."
If you start from a foundation of privacy, secrecy, and distrust, you are planning on your marriage to fall apart and it just may. There's a profound difference between how we may deal with a contractor and how we are to deal with our spouse. Men are called to be like Christ, who gave ALL to the church. And women are called to be like the church who fully submit and trust Christ. A prenup destroys both pictures. Just some food for thought.
Larry, I would agree that we are called to give all to our wife, ...etc. but what if she's no longer our wife ... how fair is it to still have to give all of our money to her? Once a marriage is ended, what is mine is no longer hers. Now BTW: I couldn't care less either way, I don't plan on getting married. I don't believe it in, it doesen't work. I'm happily unmarried and plan to stay a bachelor for life. This whole prenup debate is Reason 10,500 to never get married ... too much drama!!!
Well, I shouldn't say I never plan on getting married ... I just don't plan on ever getting married without a pre nup. I'm 25, raised by my Grandparents. If I divorce a woman it's not just her taking what is mine, it's her taking what was entrusted to me by my Grandparents. My Grandfather worked too hard to have his stuff pawned off by the courts. I will never allow that to happen. I would rather be happily unmarried for life if that's the case.
PART 2 ... I believe in child support, but then again, that system is flawed. If a man is rich or makes a sizeable income, he will be required to pay a larger amount. Fair enough, but there needs to be a system in place to guarantee that the money is going towards the child and him/her alone. It's not a secret many women try to cheat a man who has a sizeable income out of child support and use it for themselves, and not the child.
PART 1. ... I can see the logic behind Mark's argument, but the fact is, over 50% of people who get married get divorced. Over 50% of people who get married cheat. ... And the numbers aren't much better in the church. It's unrealistic to marry without a pre nup. Marriage is viewd in the eyes of the law as a business formation, at least in America, and the laws are VERY unfair towards men. Women can receive 50% of a man's net worth + child support after a divorce.
Even the best marriage is till death. For in heaven they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but marriage should be till death. But, many of us, myself included are unequally yoked to unbelievers who take advantage and use us. At what point does an emotionally or physically abusive relationship become something you flee? Is it ethical to set up a hedge to protect yourself from a potentially abusive relationship? Many people today don't get married for that very reason.
Dkreichen if you're in an emeotionally or physically abusive relationship you fleet the moment he puts his hand on you. If you have kids, you take them with you. Anything less is child abuse. People that allow themselves to be abused as just as sick as the one who is abusing and need just as much help.
But, I can show you a lot of Scriptures that tell us that Christians are to endure abuse with patience. (Luke 6:27-35; 1 Peter 2:18-21) Your idea means that Christians are sick. (Stop believing the psychobable.) Also, this isn't strickly a woman's problem. I know for a fact that many women are "abused" because they themselves are the abuser. (Proverbs 27:15,16) I was an abused husband, I know about verbal and emotional abuse coming from a woman, and what it can do to a man.
There is no pastor who I know of, including Driscoll, would would ever tell an abused spouse to stay in the home. He wouldn't say divorce over it, but he would say to get out. And yes, abused people are sick. Anyone who is being abused by a spouse, who has children in the same house, both should be charged with child abuse. Physical abuse is a crime. For a child to see it is child endangerment.
The pastors from two different churches had me go back. Of course I'm not talking about physical abuse at this point, verbal and emotional abuse is what I was dealing with, trying to be a good husband while my wife was being as unhelpful and frustrating as possible. At what point does emotional abuse warent moving out? When does the normal stresses of living with another person become abuse? What do you base your statement that abused people are sick on?
I wouldn't call "normal stresses of living with another person" abuse, but I also would not call name calling and screaming matches "normal stresses." I would never tolerate that. I grew up in a dysfunctional home with my mother allowing my aunt to call her all sorts of names in front of me. She never stood up for herself. Both were just as sick. Emotional abuse can become physical abuse, and often does. Anyone who takes any kind of abuse (emotional or physical) has no respet for themselves. ...
I would never tolerate anyone yelling at me, especially a wife. Put your foot down, take control, be a man. A wife who yells at her husband like that has no respect for him. She has no respect for you becuase you allow her to do that. Stand up for yourself. Tell her she can stop or find someplace else to live ... and mean it. That doesn't mean you divorce her, it just means you seperate and get help. If you have children they are learning it's ok to be disrespectful and to disrespect.
One thing that I would disagree with is calling abuse sickness. It isn't a sickness, it is sin. Calling it sickness takes personal responsiblity out of it. We are personally responsible for our sins, not our sicknesses. So abuse isn't a sickness it is a sin. How we react to a sinner in our life may be sinful or not, but it isn't a sickness. How would you modivate a disrespectful wife to leave? Women have the upper hand in our society. I will be divorced on the 29th.
Granted, abusing a person is a sin, but for semetics I called it a sickness to draw a illustration. Anyone who allows themselves to be abused (and you allow yourself to be abused) is sick. They (and the one doing the abusing) both need help. If a child was involved, even as a witness, that must come into account. Glad you are getting out, I feel sorry for you because I almost guarantee you didn't have a pre nup and she's going to mop the floor w/ you, right?
... The best way to get someone to leave is not to let them in the house to begin with, that way it never comes down to it. There isn't much you can do. I *think* what happened to you is you allowed her the upper hand from day one ... she lost all respect for you. As the man, you lead. It's in the Bible, it's in nature ... cave man brings home meat to cave girl, so either way you chose to look at it, men lead. They don't abuse, they don't yell, they don't hit, they just put their foot down.
Lastly ... the worst relationship advise I've ever heard is the one magical word you hear all the time ... compromise. The more you have to compromise to be with someone, the more you should not be with them. That's how you gain the upper hand my friend. When she tells you what to do, what friend you can go out with, where you can and cannot go ... tell her ... "theirs only one woman in my life who tells me what to do and you're not her." Put your foot down before you marry her or youre screwed.
First off, you aren't married are you? Neither have you been! And, God help the poor girl who would be foolish enough to marry you. You are an uncompromising jerk. If you want to call allowing yourself to be abused a sickness, then your relationship with your mother has made you sick. But, it actually is the sin of selfishness. You need help!!! That is my big problem with codependency theory. It's solution to codependency is being a jerk, which isn't the Biblical solution...
The Biblical solution is Church discipline, but the problem is few churches do it and even the ones that do don't do it when it is needed. They will discipline after the fact, or discipline the wrong person for leaving, but God forbid they actually discipline a known abuser, especially if it's a woman.
Biblically mnarriage is to be marked by self-sacrifice, self-sacrificial love from the husband, self sacrificial submission from the wife. That means the compromise of self from both people.
When the principle of mutual self-sacrifice is put into practice, marriages can be wonderful. (I know, I grew up in that type of home.) The question is what to do when one person doesn't live up to their end of the bargan? If the offending spouse is a professing Christian and a member of a church they should be disciplined. If they don't repent and the situation is unbearable then the church should help the innocent party to leave. If the offending spouse files for divorce then so be it.
The problem with your no compromise idea is that then it is the other person who is force to do all the compromising, and that, in its self is a form of abuse. So, by trying to avoid abuse you have become an abuser.
I am happily UNmarried. I consider it a compliment when you call me a jerk, thank you! :-) I believe compromise is overrated. I don't compromise for anyone, and I don't expect a woman to compromise for me, so how is that abuse? I'm not asking anyone to compromise anything for me. The time to deal with a spouse who naggs and trys to boss you around is before you get married ... they nag and boss you around because they have no respect for you ... because you don't stand up for yourself.
I believe most marriages are like the show, Everybody Loves Raymond. Cute show, but I would kill myself if I had to live with Debra. The problem is that Debra came to see Ray as the child. She lost respect for him because he allowed her to tell him what to do. That's a big no-no. I don't allow a woman or anyone for that matter to tell me what to do ... but in mutual respect, I in turn do not tell them what to do. My q: to you ... Looking back, what is one thing you would have done differently?
It is quite obvious you aren't married, and you will never have a real relationship until you change your attitude.
"Looking back, what is one thing you would have done differently?" I wouldn't have allowed myself to get sucked into marrying someone after a 2 month courtship.
You are correct that wives nag and boss because they don't respect their husbands, but your wrong about why they don't respect their husbands. They don't respect their husbands because they are fallen...
When God told Eve what the curse would mean for women He said that: "Your desire will be to control your husband, but he will beat you into submission." That is why non-christian women nag and boss, and standing up to them, short of putting a real fear into them by force won't phase them. As the writer of Proverbs points out: "He who restrains her is like one who restrains the wind, like one who grasps oil in his right hand." (27:16)...
With your mutual respect idea you may be able to have a long term roommate you have sex with, you may even have some great sex with them, but you will never have a marriage, and you better never have any kids. How do you raise kids when nobody can tell anybody else what to do. Marriage is truely becoming one with another person, becoming one corporate intity unified in purpose, that means someone is the head, and someone submits...
The way that relationship developes in a non-christian home is usually through force. Whoever can muster the most force wins. In our society that is the woman because she has the backing of the state. That is what gives you the "Everybody Loves Raymond" marriage. Debra doesn't respect or obey Raymond because she is a fallen sinner and Raymond must either divorce her or submit because otherwise the police will come and take him away...
In a true Christian marriage the wife voluntarily submits to her husband, and the husband loves his wife, giving himself up for his wife. The result is a true "one flesh" relationship, not your "ships that pass in the night" "mutual respect" relationship. These marriages do exist. As I said before, my parents have one, and that relationship will beat your longterm roommate "mutual respect" relationship anyday.
"They don't respect their husband because they are fallen ..." Yes ... and because their husbands don't stand up to them and take the lead ... and because many American women are just total B's raised to be Princesses. If you look at women in many other countries, they treat their men like royalty. Most women in America read a Betty Friedan book the second it's suggested to them they stay home with the kids or have a nice meal for their husband when he comes home from a long day of work.
And that is a fact. The women in India or most Spanish-speaking countries are just as fallen as American women AND men are for that matter ... but their culture is so totally different. And again, I don't believe in arranged marriages, beating women, treating them like crap, telling them what to do ... I'm the most docile person you'll ever meet. I just demand to be respected by all, regardless of your gender. And because of that, because I expect to be respected, I get it ... and I give it.
Okay, now your starting to get it. If your married to one of those American women who are total B's raised to be Princesses it doesn't matter how much you "stand up to them" you will end up with the choice of submitting to them or divorcing them. It has nothing to do with demanding respect. If they choose not to respect you they won't respect you, NO MATTER WHAT. Since your not married all you have is theory. Theory, like battle plans never survive first contact with the enemy.
You also have the choice of not marrying them in the first place and dating American women who were raised in a different culture. You didn't get my point ... I spoke of non-American women to counter your sin theory as being the reason American women walk all over guys ... you said it's sin, I would agree that's partially it ... but women in other countries who are just as sinful as American women treat their men well ... yet they are still sinners ... so why are they not like American women?
I disagree that all American women will disrespect you no matter what, and when I told you to stand up to her and put her in her place, you called me a jerk and said I'm an abuser. I don't care if you're a man, woman, or child ... if someone allows you to walk all over them you will lose all respect. Children do this with their parents. Wives to their husbands, dogs to their owners. And men do it, too!!! You don't follow who you don't respect. To be a leader you must be respected.
The Bible says: "Raise up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it." The way the Hebrew reads it can either mean that in a positive or negative way. Either "Let a child go its own (sinful) way, and when it is old it will not depart from it", or "Bring up a child in the right way, and when it is old it will not depart from it." Your cultural argument is only partially valid. Most cultures recognize that families function better when wives respect husbands.
If girls are raised to respect their fathers, if they see their mothers respect their fathers they will tend to respect their husbands. Our American culture has taught women the opposite for the last several generations. They have been taught to disrespect men, and when they are old they don't depart from it. I never said that it applies to all American women. I will stand behind my statement that your "I won't let anyone walk all over me" attitude turns you into a jerk and an abuser.
The reason I say that is that it comes off as saying that being nice to your wife, trying to take her needs into account, and sacrificing (compromising) your desires for her, makes you a doormat. And, that being nice to your wife is why she isn't respectful. If your wife respects you it doesn't matter how nice you are she will respect you. If she doesn't respect you she won't respect you no matter how much "you stand up to her."
I agree the best thing to do is not marry them in the first place. My soon to be ex wife pulled the classic bait and switch. Before we were married she told me everything I wanted to hear, I thought I had found someone who unlike most of the women I knew would actually respect her husband. That only lasted until I signed the marriage license, then it became "give me everything I want or your life will be hell."
Here is my advice for any man looking for a wife. Be a member of a church that practices both Nouthetic counseling and Biblical church discipline, that is dedicated to the complementarian view of gender roles, and isn't affraid to teach it from the pulpit and in classes. Make sure that any prospective wife is fully informed and in agreement with the complementarian view. Get premarital couseling from said church, and have a church wedding with traditional vows.
Then, if your wife doesn't live up to her vows deal with it through the church.
The same advice could be modified for Christian women looking for a husband.
Other advice would be never go to a secular counselor. Never be a member of a church that referes people to secular counselors (even if the secular counselor professes to be a Christian).
I pretty much now agree with everything you said, we are coming into agreement. I disagree that being nice to your wife is why she doesn't respect you. I never said to be mean. Just because you stand up for yourself doesn't make you a mean person or a jerk. It makes you a man. It makes you a leader. What do you mean by " complementarian view of gender roles"???
BTW: I need to add this in real fast ... the other option to not being married in the first place as a way to avoid what you got yourself into is ... to get a pre-nup! That way she doesn't have the control or any hidden agenda that you become aware of only after you marry her and it's too late!!! I find it interesting, and no offense to Pastor Mark, that his wife was the first to answer the q. about pre-nups with "no..."
After having gone through what I've been through pre-nups look good too!
Complementarianism holds that "God has created men and women equal in their essential dignity and human personhood, but different and complementary in function with male headship in the home and in the Church." That is opposed to the egalitarianism where men and women are viewed as equal in authority in the home and in the church and people are told to "mutually submit" to each other...
"Mutual submission" is a logical fallacy since submission means placing yourself under the authority of another, and you can't both submit and not submit to the same person in the same relationship. Your either under that persons authority, or your not under that persons authority, you can't have it both ways. Egalitarianism in marriage causes there to be a power struggle where the dominate and submissive roles are determined by force of will.
My view of complementarianism views the family as reflecting the relationships that exist within the Trinity its self. The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are equal in essence but different in authority. The Son submits to the Father, even as wifes are to submit to their husbands, and the Holy Spirit submits to both the Father and the Son as children are to submit to their parents. All three are equal in essence and worth, but each has a different role as part of a unified whole.
Egalitarianism is not only against the Bible, it's against nature. No matter which worldview you hold to, whether you're the most dedicated Christian or hardened atheist, both the Bible and nature tell us that the male of the species always leads. There is no place in the Bible or the natural sciences for feminism. It's agains the Bible and against nature.
@abbeyism I don't think that you know what natural law is!!! Survival of the fittest isn't natural law. Looking out for the weak and disadvantaged is natural law. It is the natural sense of morality that we all have. We all know that women forcing themselves to the front is wrong and self distructive to society and our own personal lives, but many of us suppress that knowledge so will can justify our wickedness. So what if 50% of children grow up in fatherless homes? So What?
@dkreichen1968 Fifty percent of children growing up without fathers is the MOTHER'S fault in your confused little mind? And no, Hun, when you start throwing around terms like Natural Law, even when I don't agree with it, you're directly referencing , in his own terminology, Darwinism, Charles Darwin, which you seem completely oblivious to. Something tells me that your body of reading is very limited, and that you're probably very lonely.
@abbeyism Maybe you should Google the term before you go off thinking that Natural Law has something to do with Charles Darwin. Maybe Google Thomas Aquinus and Natural Law. And yes, the fact that 50% of children grow up without their fathers in the home is largely caused by the selfishness of the MOTHERS. Are men selfish and therefore part of the problem, yes. But, that doesn't excuse women's selfish controlling behavior.
@dkreichen1968 Honestly, this blind absolute hostility you have against women you don't know, in broad generalized situations you are not part of, makes you sound abusive, or a would be abuser, and or a closet case. I really hope some poor woman doesnt take a beating for what I've just told you, since I am one woman, and she would be another. See how they're different? The state of the modern church attracts men like this. Glad to have escaped those violent horrors.
@abbeyism I would have to point out that you don't know what I've been through, as I don't know what you've been through. Men aren't the only abusers. Women can be abusers and users too. What I'm proud of is that during my 4 year nightmare, even while experiencing verbal, emotional, and yes, even physical abuse on a almost daily basis, I never struck back physically. And after she had used me up and bankrupted me she discarded me like last weeks trash. Yes, I'm somewhat hostile.
@dkreichen1968 Would you like to hear what I've been put through by men that I didn't even volunteer for? As a child? In one of the families these self rightous assholes are promoting? Men are good at being such martyrs without ever seeing the underside the female population suffer. Thats it. That's all. Men are soverign tyrants in the Christian religion and THATS why they're dogmatic about it
@dkreichen1968 This and other posts from this "pastor" monster and his poor brain washed wife are sending the message that the best women can do for themselves is find a tolerable man and submit. It's a nightmare, and it's promoting viscious cycles of abuse, misery and humilation for women in insufferable circumstances in the country. (If I hear freedom and America one more time). This attitude is also minimizing to people and their individual potential for God, who wants and uses everybody.
@abbeyism Who do you think is happier, you, or Pastor Mark's "brain washed wife"? You certainly have some issues, and I don't know the circumstances behind them, but I do know one thing, they aren't because you were part of the type of family that Pastor Mark is promoting. Sounds like your father wasn't holding up his end of the bargain. There are Biblical ways of dealing with that.
@dkreichen1968 My father WAS a pastor, idiot. We did our best to survive that shivers back to me. I am quite happy now that I have my freedom, but every once in awhile, I look back in compassion at people still trapped and painted into those corners. Trust me, sweetheart, I am the one that knows what they're talking about here. The scariest part is that everyone thinks their church is different until the long term destruction is done. How can anyone stop the insanity?
@abbeyism Just because your father was the pastor doesn't mean that he was holding up his end of the bargain, or that he had any proper accountablity to his congregation. I grew up in a Biblical family where both spouses and the children were happy and no one was abused, so I know that such things both can and do exist. You seem to be somewhat myopic in defining the universe by your quite limited and distorted experience. Based on this conversation, I don't think you're happy.
@dkreichen1968 Talk about limited and distorted experience, you're the one helping this man-boy attack women because you got into what sounds like a bad marriage. The widespread devastation caused by most churches is bigger than this. Im telling you I'm happier now, you're PRONOUNCING to the world that you're "hostile". And by the way, I think bargain is bad word for love, life and family. My father worked his fingers to the bone for demanding Christians and collapsed under impossible doctrine.
@abbeyism There seems to be a lot more to your story than your letting on. There is no way for me to judge your situation based on the information you've given me. I can say that you have no place to judge Mark Driscol or his wife. Since I don't live in Seattle, go to their church, or know them personally, I have no idea what goes on in their home. I can tell you that God is true, and every man a liar. So, when they speak God's Word they speak the truth. Arguing with God gets you nowhere.
Marriages are built on trust. True! Prenups show a lack of trust. True! But, trust is earned. When you get married you are putting yourself into a position where the other person can take extreme advantange of you. I've known a person who married a woman who was already married to someone else. Three years and 1 child later she cleaned out the bank account and left. Another person was defrauded out of $75,000 by a woman who "loves Jesus." Do you protect yourself? If so, how?
Oh how I wish you were right, but somehow people put a lot on the world of money and having things even the churchers. If they came to take what this preacher has he would fight with all he has and the same goes for the woman on here. I pray so hard that I could let them have it all and never look back but my mind was given to the world when I was just a child. Foregive Our Father for I am weak please help me a sinner....Brother Phil.
What a senseless douchebag.
324582782 7 hours ago
Are you kidding me! If you are stupid enough to marry someone you would suspect of divorcing you, you have more problems than how much money she could take from you. Also, if you would get married under such circumstances it is highly likely you are not even a man and just a boy who thinks marriage is about what you get out of it. Grow up and be a man.
blackout4747 1 month ago
these two hosts are full of shit. the bitch in white is going with her instincts but the bitch on the right is being stupid. once his wife leaves him and takes half his shit he'll wish he had a prenup.
uknown786 2 months ago
I think prenups are awful, I think that is right aways saying that divorce could be on the table. I disagree
snoopval 2 months ago
holy shit what world does this guy live in like seriously divorce is up to 80% and most of them are filed by women and thats a fact and at the divorce they want every 80% of the money the house and alimony, Prenup agreement is a must nowadays it will chase off gold diggers and thoes who refuse to sign simply don't marry them stay the way yous are and she wont be entiled to shit!
MushRoom791 2 months ago 2
@MushRoom791
Yeah he lives in a world where women do no wrong. I sure wish I lived in that world.
Sephiroth1984 1 week ago
@Sephiroth1984 Yeah same here man he seems to be brainwashed its unromantic and what not, But trust me the day hes wife decides to leave him he will be giving everything to her i mean EVERYTHING and to top it all off after 10 years of marriage which they seem to pass he will have to pay her alimony for the rest of her life! Me personally im having prenup agreement because lets face it the court system is acomplete joke. If you're ever gonna get married get prenup! Thank feminism
MushRoom791 1 week ago
@MushRoom791
Yup. Mark Driscoll needs to do what he always fails to do when he tries to live in this fantasy world of old-school chivalry: acknowledge the existence of feminism. i.e. women who mean men harm and succeed in doing them harm. He and many others like to think that every failing a woman has can be traced back to some man somewhere.
It's a dangerous world for men with guys like Mark Driscoll in it--in complete denial of the fact that women can and do cause men harm.
Sephiroth1984 1 week ago
@Sephiroth1984 Bro hes a complete jack ass who did not experience it first hand and he will eventually.Most women dont wont to work they want to sit on they ass all day doing NOTHING! and then a year later they want divorce and they want you're money the house will be sold so she gets half and alimony prob for the rest of her life and for what for her to sit on her all DAY DOING NOTHING. Yes it is dangerous and women do cause men harm and they think they are Superior then us LOL?
MushRoom791 1 week ago
@MushRoom791
Yeah I think Driscoll and his wife wouldn't say "no" if the divorce courts weren't notoriously biased against men and were harsh to women instead. They love rushing to the defense of women.
Sephiroth1984 1 week ago
ALL THE FUCKING BITCHES LEAVE WITH ALL YOUR SHIT!
TheRatchetkid 3 months ago
Getting a new woman is easier than getting back the half of your net worth she will snatch in the divorce. Get a prenup fellas.
MrFuckyoubitch69 7 months ago
Or, maybe Mark's reasoning is Biblical and you're having a hard time with that! Bahahahahaha!
jonathonwwilliams 8 months ago
@jonathonwwilliams
There's nothing "Biblical" about rejecting prenups.
Rejecting prenups has the unholy effect of destroying families.
WhiteStar11111 7 months ago
pfffttplease no woman wants a pre-nup....she sees leaving as an out....and wants to get paid when its done.....to me its marital insurance-not a trust issue at all
iluv2rant 8 months ago
Marriage SHOULD be built on trust - true. However, if one party is bringing considerably more (cash) asset value into the relationship; it is only very very wise to have in place a ready agreement, as people can change, and with that change covetous moral decline may increase. Ask Me how I know these this?
deksper 8 months ago
Why not sign a pre-nup?
If there is no plan to divorce, what is the harm of having a pre-nup?
Any woman who is sure she won't divorce him doesn't need to hold onto the option of robbing the guy via divorce court, which is the option that a pre-nup ends.
WhiteStar11111 8 months ago
im tired of these bitches saying that its bad im not getting screwed by any person who knows whts going to happen in 20 years
ladruner 8 months ago
i am not saying yes or no on the Prenup agreement,but just giving a ideal. Prenup agreement last for 10 years and 1 second and it is nul and void. now a post nupual [After you get married] agreement is good for a life time ! I know a fellow who ask his future wife for a Prenup Agreement and she said yes OK ! Then a week later she ask him when are you going to get the Prenup wrote up. He said I don't need one for you told me what I wanted to know ! They have been married over 40 yrs. !
turtle4aire 9 months ago
@turtle4aire Thats awesome, Very Solomonish! haha!
r3v001 7 months ago
Why Mark's wife knows everything too.
SamWiseGingy 9 months ago
I watch because I find Driscoll helpful. His views are molded by scripture. It's a challenge to find a guy who is culturally relevant and Biblically solid. Guys, I don't have time to waste waging a war on every questionable viewpoint.
jonathonwwilliams 9 months ago
Sometimes pre-nups are for the marriages themselves, like Mark said.There are so many divorcees out there, and I almost wish I had had a prenup before marrying a guy with kids. Just to set the expectations, because traditional marriage counseling and parameters don't work well in a remarriage situation. This is due to the fact that those parameters make assumptions that certain conditions will automatically exist. It's different in 2nd marriages, very different
ninasju 11 months ago
@ninasju in that case the "guy" needs to explain that you are not the new mommy or the housemade or the "next one". You are his other half now and there is no yours or mine. Its ours...
PaulStowe1 11 months ago
@PaulStowe1 Unfortunately he didn't. He put them as his "other half", honored and elevated them above me in all circumstances, and 16 years later my husband and I are living on separate floors of the same house, and my stepkids and I no longer speak. I entered into a caste system as an "untouchable" when I married. Unfortunately, this is an all too common scenario. The did a study on lives of stepmothers in the book, "Stepmonster", and it's striking how similar our experiences all are
ninasju 11 months ago
Trust????? Hello, If You Have More Than The Other Person Why Not Make Sure You don't get Robbed :))
handitwater247 1 year ago
Im honestly not gettin a pre nup. I'm only 19 and been through break up 3 times.
What i have learned so far is that you can never trust any one in this world, And sometimes not even the one you love the most.
Marriage is romantic but when it comes do divorce its all business Remember that!
324582782 1 year ago
What Mark is saying is basically "people don't change".
Which is a LIE. People change. Every day. Some people work all their lives for their hard earned money only to have their beloved other CHANGE and move onto other interest.
ultrarider666 1 year ago
@ultrarider666 And thats only because God is not the glue in the marriage
PaulStowe1 11 months ago
@PaulStowe1
And you cannot control if your partner decides to keep God as the glue of your marriage, can you?
If you think you can control your partner during your marriage, you're probably doing it with fear and threats of violence. Take your narrow-minded hat off and think about it. There are good men and women out there, who work hard, praise God, fight everyday to put God first in their marriage - then they change that's BEYOND your control.
ultrarider666 11 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
@PaulStowe1
And you cannot control if your partner decides to keep God as the glue of your marriage, can you?
If you think you can control your partner during your marriage, you're probably doing it with fear and threats of violence. Take your narrow-minded hat off and think about it. There are good men and women out there, who work hard, praise God, fight everyday to put God first in their marriage - then they change that's BEYOND your control.
ultrarider666 11 months ago
With over half marriages ending in divorce and usually the woman leaving the husband taking his house, half his assets, all the children and getting a sizable portion of the man's income for the next 15 years because "The children (=she) has grown custom to the expensive live style" only a brainwashed/unthinking man wouldn't get a prenup. Feminism killed marriage. With the current laws it's insane to get married without a prenup as a man.
YksiSuomalainen 1 year ago
@YksiSuomalainen I notice how everything is belongs to the man in your eyes. Women never work toward the home, or give birth to these children you speak of?
Key300 2 months ago
@Key300 I think the children should be divided by gender. Boys to the father and girls to the mother, if both want them. Child support payments should be reasonable to what the child actually needs (no 20000€ per month child support payments.) Robbing a house from the house's actual owner and alimony are just criminal and should not even exist. The prenup agreement should already state how assets will be divided.
YksiSuomalainen 2 months ago
@YksiSuomalainen WOW you have some twisted idea about what family is. Children are not items to be divided up in a divorce.
Key300 2 months ago
@Key300 Easy to say when with the current system the female gets them all by default. Maybe you think a fairer system would be that the father gets them all ? You have to understand that somekind of compromise has to be done here.
YksiSuomalainen 2 months ago
Then I am the "Wrong Guy". I won't show up at the alter if a prenup is not signed. Marrying todays women is like playing russian roulette with 5 bullets in the chamber. To any man who is actually believes what was said in this video and takes it to heart...best of luck. Maybe you can ask Mark and Grace if you can move in with them once you loose your home, and forced to pay alimony when your divorce comes.
stusenrab 1 year ago
@stusenrab Haha. I completely agree! It's like, okay, you are clearly wanting to marry this person, but here's the deal, at some point that person may change (Christian or not) and you may get divorced. That doesn't mean you conduct your marriage as if at any point you're going to get divorced, it's just being proactive from the getgo so you don't be made a fool of down the road. The pre-nup agreement may never have to be used, but you don't want to be in the boat where you wished you had one!
Logansbl 1 year ago
@Logansbl But still, where is your faith that God if you get one? If your marrying someone "under God" way would you ever doubt them? By the time I felt like I had to be "proactive" or shield myself against the possiblity of being made a fool, I would walk away from that person. I married my wife 7 years ago after dating for only 45 days and never had a thought about ANYTHING other than, this is her, the one he sent for me.
PaulStowe1 11 months ago
@PaulStowe1
Why leave in place a system where the woman can take everything from the man?
Why not erase that unholiness with a prenup and then marry with all the faith in the wo9rld?
WhiteStar11111 7 months ago
@WhiteStar11111 you have a good point about the prenup.
13SuperKings 5 months ago
@Logansbl But still, where is your faith in God if you get one? If your marrying someone "under God" way would you ever doubt them? By the time I felt like I had to be "proactive" or shield myself against the possiblity of being made a fool, I would walk away from that person. I married my wife 7 years ago after dating for only 45 days and never had a thought about ANYTHING other than, this is her, the one he sent for me.
PaulStowe1 11 months ago
You know why this country has nukes? Probably because it is to deter war and invasion. Just 'cause you are getting married is no reason to not protect each other. It's about protection from ourselves not about mistrust. In all actuality all men, and women are liars. So why not protect eachother from ourselves. I think that is the more responsible way to make a foundation. We all have checks and balances, govts., businesses and the like. So marriage is not really that different.
BSmenot 1 year ago
@BSmenot It's an interesting perspective, but marriage is based on a covenant, ordained by God. Do you trust God? If not, then I suppose you don't trust anything. I agree that the world is an exceedingly evil place, but seriously, I didn't enter into a relationship with Christ with a piece of paper that put limits on how he will use my life.
SkiesVibrant 1 year ago
@SkiesVibrant It looks like all this boils down to commitment and devotion. It is there or it ain't. We reap what we sow.
BSmenot 1 year ago
@BSmenot On that we agree. :)
SkiesVibrant 1 year ago
Prenuptial agreements should exist by default. Not getting a prenuptial agreement is a breach of trust. If you truly trust the person you're marrying, then why should you have a financial backup plan in case things go sour?
didles123 1 year ago
Christians get divorced all the time. Women initiate 70% of divorces. Men need to protect themselves.
dreamtheater57123 1 year ago
I can get on board with this. My girl and I will likely have one, but it's not for fear of divorce issues per se so much as inheritance issues from her parents' businesses. I agree fully that I shouldn't have any part of that, so it's cool.
vedinthorn 1 year ago
I do not completely agree or disagree with his stance. When ppl get on track to getting married, they get caught up in infatuation that that they may lose track of reality. I do however agree that money should not be a factor in evaluating a relationship
17GreenLantern 1 year ago
What's a prenup?
desasterz 1 year ago
I never thought of it that way b4.
nrang1 1 year ago
It makes sense. A prenuptial is a plan to divorce. If you cannot trust the person you are going to marry, then STOP. wrong person.
allclear100 1 year ago
@allclear100
NO, marry WITH a pre-nup.
By the way, a marriage license without a prenup is a divorce plan.
WhiteStar11111 7 months ago
then I can never get married lol
Rahhhsajp19 2 years ago
I got married to an immigrant who had another name. He told me and I still married him...we have a child together! Sometimes I dont know what to do??
ARTHEROPY 2 years ago
This is not about trust, this is insuring yourself against a breach of trust. Just look at the divorce rates in any Western country...
leostomicek 2 years ago
what's insane is how this guy and his wife make so much sense in lieu of reading the posted comments that you all have left.
Look, if you don't agree with it, then why are you watching it, much less commenting on it?
jonathonwwilliams 2 years ago 22
@jonathonwwilliams - Because this is an open forum of free speech in which this video has been made available. You can't be angry because some one criticizes something you believe. If the video has merit, it's arguments will stand up under scrutiny, no matter how fallacious the attack.
hannonja 1 year ago
@jonathonwwilliams If you AGREE why are you watching it? You already have the opinion just have it and live with it. When we disagree and watch its because we like to hear the opposing view to grow intellectually. And then, in some cases, when the opposing opinion is so transcendently stupid that you need to laugh at it and mock it...THEN WE COMMENT.
365to173repubsPWNED 9 months ago
@jonathonwwilliams Huh?? How would a critique give an informative opinion, without first watching it? Further more, if Mark wants to make opinionated generalizations possibly easily made because His wife is beside Him in "loving" acknowledging support; it may be making it very easy to be skeptical in Mark's motivational reasonings.
deksper 8 months ago
Seriously.. i think prenuptial are necessary sometimes in cases of marriage especially when money is involved. The Ketubah for example is a Jewish prenuptial agreement. Why not have one such as the Ketubah. It helps so the people who arent in it for love can't get your money too. I mean if your a millionaire and you treat ur wife like a queen their nothing wrong with the prenuptial.
silas232003 2 years ago
Do either of you know anything about family law? Marriage is both secular and religious. Secular marriage is akin to the formation of a corporation. It should be done on terms comfortable to both parties. If one partner in the marriage is uncomfortable with existing state law, the couple should sign a prenup to modify the law as it applies to that couple. Why should either party have to put themselves in a position to be taken advantage of legally? Such a position fosters MISTRUST, not trust.
kevinevin 2 years ago
Mark Driscoll has attempted to distance himself from mainstream Christianity by faux hawks, jeans, and yelling. But he's cut of the same cloth as any other religious leader of the past century. Much as he likes to rag on "Religious" people and act all "edgy", he's still chauvinistic, close-minded, ignorant, and irrelevant.
In other words, he's a Christian pastor.
whisperafar 2 years ago
The pastor is WRONG. IF you are a RICH person............to marry a broke person without a PRE NUP is just dumb.
The fact is that 50% of ALL marriages END in divorce!!!! Numbers do not lie!!!
jr543266 2 years ago
He is not wrong. If you are a true christian you understand that you and your spouse are one. ONE.
Unlike nowadays many people think abt getting married and also thinking that "if it goes wrong, I will divorce".
You and your spouse wont try to "steal your money" because a real christian wont act like that.
So he is not wrong, is that you may have a different perception of marriage.
take care and God bless you!
lvillalobos 2 years ago
The reason people are getting divorce is not because of no prenub but that people are getting married for all the wrong reasons.
Also, people do go to God or his word before they make decision the just make there own mind up without thinking thing threw.
SaintJohn86 2 years ago
If a woman refuses to sign a prenup, it means that she wants to keep the option of taking everything from the man in a future divorce.
That is the standard result from divorce courts when there is no prenup.
Divorce is legal with or without a prenup: it is just a question of who writes the agreement, the couple or the divorce courts.
If a woman refuses to sign a prenup, she is holding on to the divorce courts option and the man should break the engagement.
TunesAndStars 2 years ago
yeah but brian you say marriages in the church aren't much better....there are A LOT of people in the church who aren't real christians, don't take christianity seriously (just go because they always have, or social reasons), and don't truly follow jesus...if you look at the stats of real christians who have a solid christ-centered foundation...numbers would skyrocket...these types of christians/marriages/lives are what mars hill promotes
jhoman1 2 years ago
joman I agree with what you said ... maybe that's why we shouldn't be so trusting of everyone we meet. A little distrust is health, IMHO.
Brian685 2 years ago
fuck i hate Christianity today its been so pimped up its lost its true essence
mormanwarrior 2 years ago
I know everyone is thumbsdowning you, but to a degree you're right. I think the harsh language you used is part of the reason. I agree that there are so many false churches nowadays, but Mark Driscolls is one of the few that is far from false. It really is a biblical, sound church. If you go to his website and listen to a few of his sermons, I think they could really help. His churches name is Mars Hill in Seattle. Check it out.
larrywalkerntbi 2 years ago
PART 3... Above all, we must be realistic about it. Would Mark and his wife hand a contractor $100,000.00 cash with no contract to remodel their house or expect a church member to do the same ... and say if they can't do that don't use the contractor because that shows a lack of trust? There is a difference IMO between trust and caution. You can trust a person and use caution. People change over time for better or worse. Use caution. Never be in a position where you can lose everything. GBY
Brian685 2 years ago
Marriage is supposed to give glory to God. It is suppose to represent Christ and the church. Now, where does Christ leave himself an out with the church? Marriage for the believer is different compared to the world. This is from a Christian view. This is why the selection is key, not so much the ceremony. Trust with caution in marriage? That would mean one or the other does not love Christ enough to commit for a lifetime to their spouse. Let God give us our views. Our views are tainted.
raydog31 2 years ago
I respectfully disagree with you.Your thoughts are the very essence of why marriages in the church are no different than outside of the church.You said "never be in a position where you can lose everything."
larrywalkerntbi 2 years ago
If you start from a foundation of privacy, secrecy, and distrust, you are planning on your marriage to fall apart and it just may. There's a profound difference between how we may deal with a contractor and how we are to deal with our spouse. Men are called to be like Christ, who gave ALL to the church. And women are called to be like the church who fully submit and trust Christ. A prenup destroys both pictures. Just some food for thought.
larrywalkerntbi 2 years ago
Larry, I would agree that we are called to give all to our wife, ...etc. but what if she's no longer our wife ... how fair is it to still have to give all of our money to her? Once a marriage is ended, what is mine is no longer hers. Now BTW: I couldn't care less either way, I don't plan on getting married. I don't believe it in, it doesen't work. I'm happily unmarried and plan to stay a bachelor for life. This whole prenup debate is Reason 10,500 to never get married ... too much drama!!!
Brian685 2 years ago
Well, I shouldn't say I never plan on getting married ... I just don't plan on ever getting married without a pre nup. I'm 25, raised by my Grandparents. If I divorce a woman it's not just her taking what is mine, it's her taking what was entrusted to me by my Grandparents. My Grandfather worked too hard to have his stuff pawned off by the courts. I will never allow that to happen. I would rather be happily unmarried for life if that's the case.
Brian685 2 years ago
PART 2 ... I believe in child support, but then again, that system is flawed. If a man is rich or makes a sizeable income, he will be required to pay a larger amount. Fair enough, but there needs to be a system in place to guarantee that the money is going towards the child and him/her alone. It's not a secret many women try to cheat a man who has a sizeable income out of child support and use it for themselves, and not the child.
Brian685 2 years ago
PART 1. ... I can see the logic behind Mark's argument, but the fact is, over 50% of people who get married get divorced. Over 50% of people who get married cheat. ... And the numbers aren't much better in the church. It's unrealistic to marry without a pre nup. Marriage is viewd in the eyes of the law as a business formation, at least in America, and the laws are VERY unfair towards men. Women can receive 50% of a man's net worth + child support after a divorce.
Brian685 2 years ago
wisdom
onegreeneye 2 years ago
marriage is forever... a prenup, is not!!
warringbride 2 years ago
Even the best marriage is till death. For in heaven they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but marriage should be till death. But, many of us, myself included are unequally yoked to unbelievers who take advantage and use us. At what point does an emotionally or physically abusive relationship become something you flee? Is it ethical to set up a hedge to protect yourself from a potentially abusive relationship? Many people today don't get married for that very reason.
dkreichen1968 2 years ago 3
Dkreichen if you're in an emeotionally or physically abusive relationship you fleet the moment he puts his hand on you. If you have kids, you take them with you. Anything less is child abuse. People that allow themselves to be abused as just as sick as the one who is abusing and need just as much help.
Brian685 2 years ago
But, I can show you a lot of Scriptures that tell us that Christians are to endure abuse with patience. (Luke 6:27-35; 1 Peter 2:18-21) Your idea means that Christians are sick. (Stop believing the psychobable.) Also, this isn't strickly a woman's problem. I know for a fact that many women are "abused" because they themselves are the abuser. (Proverbs 27:15,16) I was an abused husband, I know about verbal and emotional abuse coming from a woman, and what it can do to a man.
dkreichen1968 2 years ago
There is no pastor who I know of, including Driscoll, would would ever tell an abused spouse to stay in the home. He wouldn't say divorce over it, but he would say to get out. And yes, abused people are sick. Anyone who is being abused by a spouse, who has children in the same house, both should be charged with child abuse. Physical abuse is a crime. For a child to see it is child endangerment.
Brian685 2 years ago
The pastors from two different churches had me go back. Of course I'm not talking about physical abuse at this point, verbal and emotional abuse is what I was dealing with, trying to be a good husband while my wife was being as unhelpful and frustrating as possible. At what point does emotional abuse warent moving out? When does the normal stresses of living with another person become abuse? What do you base your statement that abused people are sick on?
dkreichen1968 2 years ago
I wouldn't call "normal stresses of living with another person" abuse, but I also would not call name calling and screaming matches "normal stresses." I would never tolerate that. I grew up in a dysfunctional home with my mother allowing my aunt to call her all sorts of names in front of me. She never stood up for herself. Both were just as sick. Emotional abuse can become physical abuse, and often does. Anyone who takes any kind of abuse (emotional or physical) has no respet for themselves. ...
Brian685 2 years ago
I would never tolerate anyone yelling at me, especially a wife. Put your foot down, take control, be a man. A wife who yells at her husband like that has no respect for him. She has no respect for you becuase you allow her to do that. Stand up for yourself. Tell her she can stop or find someplace else to live ... and mean it. That doesn't mean you divorce her, it just means you seperate and get help. If you have children they are learning it's ok to be disrespectful and to disrespect.
Brian685 2 years ago
One thing that I would disagree with is calling abuse sickness. It isn't a sickness, it is sin. Calling it sickness takes personal responsiblity out of it. We are personally responsible for our sins, not our sicknesses. So abuse isn't a sickness it is a sin. How we react to a sinner in our life may be sinful or not, but it isn't a sickness. How would you modivate a disrespectful wife to leave? Women have the upper hand in our society. I will be divorced on the 29th.
dkreichen1968 2 years ago
Granted, abusing a person is a sin, but for semetics I called it a sickness to draw a illustration. Anyone who allows themselves to be abused (and you allow yourself to be abused) is sick. They (and the one doing the abusing) both need help. If a child was involved, even as a witness, that must come into account. Glad you are getting out, I feel sorry for you because I almost guarantee you didn't have a pre nup and she's going to mop the floor w/ you, right?
Brian685 2 years ago
... The best way to get someone to leave is not to let them in the house to begin with, that way it never comes down to it. There isn't much you can do. I *think* what happened to you is you allowed her the upper hand from day one ... she lost all respect for you. As the man, you lead. It's in the Bible, it's in nature ... cave man brings home meat to cave girl, so either way you chose to look at it, men lead. They don't abuse, they don't yell, they don't hit, they just put their foot down.
Brian685 2 years ago
Lastly ... the worst relationship advise I've ever heard is the one magical word you hear all the time ... compromise. The more you have to compromise to be with someone, the more you should not be with them. That's how you gain the upper hand my friend. When she tells you what to do, what friend you can go out with, where you can and cannot go ... tell her ... "theirs only one woman in my life who tells me what to do and you're not her." Put your foot down before you marry her or youre screwed.
Brian685 2 years ago
First off, you aren't married are you? Neither have you been! And, God help the poor girl who would be foolish enough to marry you. You are an uncompromising jerk. If you want to call allowing yourself to be abused a sickness, then your relationship with your mother has made you sick. But, it actually is the sin of selfishness. You need help!!! That is my big problem with codependency theory. It's solution to codependency is being a jerk, which isn't the Biblical solution...
dkreichen1968 2 years ago
The Biblical solution is Church discipline, but the problem is few churches do it and even the ones that do don't do it when it is needed. They will discipline after the fact, or discipline the wrong person for leaving, but God forbid they actually discipline a known abuser, especially if it's a woman.
Biblically mnarriage is to be marked by self-sacrifice, self-sacrificial love from the husband, self sacrificial submission from the wife. That means the compromise of self from both people.
dkreichen1968 2 years ago
When the principle of mutual self-sacrifice is put into practice, marriages can be wonderful. (I know, I grew up in that type of home.) The question is what to do when one person doesn't live up to their end of the bargan? If the offending spouse is a professing Christian and a member of a church they should be disciplined. If they don't repent and the situation is unbearable then the church should help the innocent party to leave. If the offending spouse files for divorce then so be it.
dkreichen1968 2 years ago
The problem with your no compromise idea is that then it is the other person who is force to do all the compromising, and that, in its self is a form of abuse. So, by trying to avoid abuse you have become an abuser.
dkreichen1968 2 years ago
I am happily UNmarried. I consider it a compliment when you call me a jerk, thank you! :-) I believe compromise is overrated. I don't compromise for anyone, and I don't expect a woman to compromise for me, so how is that abuse? I'm not asking anyone to compromise anything for me. The time to deal with a spouse who naggs and trys to boss you around is before you get married ... they nag and boss you around because they have no respect for you ... because you don't stand up for yourself.
Brian685 2 years ago
I believe most marriages are like the show, Everybody Loves Raymond. Cute show, but I would kill myself if I had to live with Debra. The problem is that Debra came to see Ray as the child. She lost respect for him because he allowed her to tell him what to do. That's a big no-no. I don't allow a woman or anyone for that matter to tell me what to do ... but in mutual respect, I in turn do not tell them what to do. My q: to you ... Looking back, what is one thing you would have done differently?
Brian685 2 years ago
It is quite obvious you aren't married, and you will never have a real relationship until you change your attitude.
"Looking back, what is one thing you would have done differently?" I wouldn't have allowed myself to get sucked into marrying someone after a 2 month courtship.
You are correct that wives nag and boss because they don't respect their husbands, but your wrong about why they don't respect their husbands. They don't respect their husbands because they are fallen...
dkreichen1968 2 years ago
When God told Eve what the curse would mean for women He said that: "Your desire will be to control your husband, but he will beat you into submission." That is why non-christian women nag and boss, and standing up to them, short of putting a real fear into them by force won't phase them. As the writer of Proverbs points out: "He who restrains her is like one who restrains the wind, like one who grasps oil in his right hand." (27:16)...
dkreichen1968 2 years ago
With your mutual respect idea you may be able to have a long term roommate you have sex with, you may even have some great sex with them, but you will never have a marriage, and you better never have any kids. How do you raise kids when nobody can tell anybody else what to do. Marriage is truely becoming one with another person, becoming one corporate intity unified in purpose, that means someone is the head, and someone submits...
dkreichen1968 2 years ago
The way that relationship developes in a non-christian home is usually through force. Whoever can muster the most force wins. In our society that is the woman because she has the backing of the state. That is what gives you the "Everybody Loves Raymond" marriage. Debra doesn't respect or obey Raymond because she is a fallen sinner and Raymond must either divorce her or submit because otherwise the police will come and take him away...
dkreichen1968 2 years ago
In a true Christian marriage the wife voluntarily submits to her husband, and the husband loves his wife, giving himself up for his wife. The result is a true "one flesh" relationship, not your "ships that pass in the night" "mutual respect" relationship. These marriages do exist. As I said before, my parents have one, and that relationship will beat your longterm roommate "mutual respect" relationship anyday.
dkreichen1968 2 years ago
"They don't respect their husband because they are fallen ..." Yes ... and because their husbands don't stand up to them and take the lead ... and because many American women are just total B's raised to be Princesses. If you look at women in many other countries, they treat their men like royalty. Most women in America read a Betty Friedan book the second it's suggested to them they stay home with the kids or have a nice meal for their husband when he comes home from a long day of work.
Brian685 2 years ago
And that is a fact. The women in India or most Spanish-speaking countries are just as fallen as American women AND men are for that matter ... but their culture is so totally different. And again, I don't believe in arranged marriages, beating women, treating them like crap, telling them what to do ... I'm the most docile person you'll ever meet. I just demand to be respected by all, regardless of your gender. And because of that, because I expect to be respected, I get it ... and I give it.
Brian685 2 years ago
Okay, now your starting to get it. If your married to one of those American women who are total B's raised to be Princesses it doesn't matter how much you "stand up to them" you will end up with the choice of submitting to them or divorcing them. It has nothing to do with demanding respect. If they choose not to respect you they won't respect you, NO MATTER WHAT. Since your not married all you have is theory. Theory, like battle plans never survive first contact with the enemy.
dkreichen1968 2 years ago
You also have the choice of not marrying them in the first place and dating American women who were raised in a different culture. You didn't get my point ... I spoke of non-American women to counter your sin theory as being the reason American women walk all over guys ... you said it's sin, I would agree that's partially it ... but women in other countries who are just as sinful as American women treat their men well ... yet they are still sinners ... so why are they not like American women?
Brian685 2 years ago
I disagree that all American women will disrespect you no matter what, and when I told you to stand up to her and put her in her place, you called me a jerk and said I'm an abuser. I don't care if you're a man, woman, or child ... if someone allows you to walk all over them you will lose all respect. Children do this with their parents. Wives to their husbands, dogs to their owners. And men do it, too!!! You don't follow who you don't respect. To be a leader you must be respected.
Brian685 2 years ago
The Bible says: "Raise up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it." The way the Hebrew reads it can either mean that in a positive or negative way. Either "Let a child go its own (sinful) way, and when it is old it will not depart from it", or "Bring up a child in the right way, and when it is old it will not depart from it." Your cultural argument is only partially valid. Most cultures recognize that families function better when wives respect husbands.
dkreichen1968 2 years ago
If girls are raised to respect their fathers, if they see their mothers respect their fathers they will tend to respect their husbands. Our American culture has taught women the opposite for the last several generations. They have been taught to disrespect men, and when they are old they don't depart from it. I never said that it applies to all American women. I will stand behind my statement that your "I won't let anyone walk all over me" attitude turns you into a jerk and an abuser.
dkreichen1968 2 years ago
The reason I say that is that it comes off as saying that being nice to your wife, trying to take her needs into account, and sacrificing (compromising) your desires for her, makes you a doormat. And, that being nice to your wife is why she isn't respectful. If your wife respects you it doesn't matter how nice you are she will respect you. If she doesn't respect you she won't respect you no matter how much "you stand up to her."
dkreichen1968 2 years ago
I agree the best thing to do is not marry them in the first place. My soon to be ex wife pulled the classic bait and switch. Before we were married she told me everything I wanted to hear, I thought I had found someone who unlike most of the women I knew would actually respect her husband. That only lasted until I signed the marriage license, then it became "give me everything I want or your life will be hell."
dkreichen1968 2 years ago
Here is my advice for any man looking for a wife. Be a member of a church that practices both Nouthetic counseling and Biblical church discipline, that is dedicated to the complementarian view of gender roles, and isn't affraid to teach it from the pulpit and in classes. Make sure that any prospective wife is fully informed and in agreement with the complementarian view. Get premarital couseling from said church, and have a church wedding with traditional vows.
dkreichen1968 2 years ago
Then, if your wife doesn't live up to her vows deal with it through the church.
The same advice could be modified for Christian women looking for a husband.
Other advice would be never go to a secular counselor. Never be a member of a church that referes people to secular counselors (even if the secular counselor professes to be a Christian).
dkreichen1968 2 years ago
I pretty much now agree with everything you said, we are coming into agreement. I disagree that being nice to your wife is why she doesn't respect you. I never said to be mean. Just because you stand up for yourself doesn't make you a mean person or a jerk. It makes you a man. It makes you a leader. What do you mean by " complementarian view of gender roles"???
Brian685 2 years ago
BTW: I need to add this in real fast ... the other option to not being married in the first place as a way to avoid what you got yourself into is ... to get a pre-nup! That way she doesn't have the control or any hidden agenda that you become aware of only after you marry her and it's too late!!! I find it interesting, and no offense to Pastor Mark, that his wife was the first to answer the q. about pre-nups with "no..."
Brian685 2 years ago
After having gone through what I've been through pre-nups look good too!
Complementarianism holds that "God has created men and women equal in their essential dignity and human personhood, but different and complementary in function with male headship in the home and in the Church." That is opposed to the egalitarianism where men and women are viewed as equal in authority in the home and in the church and people are told to "mutually submit" to each other...
dkreichen1968 2 years ago
"Mutual submission" is a logical fallacy since submission means placing yourself under the authority of another, and you can't both submit and not submit to the same person in the same relationship. Your either under that persons authority, or your not under that persons authority, you can't have it both ways. Egalitarianism in marriage causes there to be a power struggle where the dominate and submissive roles are determined by force of will.
dkreichen1968 2 years ago
My view of complementarianism views the family as reflecting the relationships that exist within the Trinity its self. The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are equal in essence but different in authority. The Son submits to the Father, even as wifes are to submit to their husbands, and the Holy Spirit submits to both the Father and the Son as children are to submit to their parents. All three are equal in essence and worth, but each has a different role as part of a unified whole.
dkreichen1968 2 years ago
Egalitarianism is not only against the Bible, it's against nature. No matter which worldview you hold to, whether you're the most dedicated Christian or hardened atheist, both the Bible and nature tell us that the male of the species always leads. There is no place in the Bible or the natural sciences for feminism. It's agains the Bible and against nature.
Brian685 2 years ago
Agreed, feminism goes against natural law. But, that hasn't stopped this society from trying really hard to reject natural law. ;-)
dkreichen1968 2 years ago
@dkreichen1968 If society let natural law have its way, you would have already been eaten by smarter animals.
abbeyism 1 year ago
@abbeyism I don't think that you know what natural law is!!! Survival of the fittest isn't natural law. Looking out for the weak and disadvantaged is natural law. It is the natural sense of morality that we all have. We all know that women forcing themselves to the front is wrong and self distructive to society and our own personal lives, but many of us suppress that knowledge so will can justify our wickedness. So what if 50% of children grow up in fatherless homes? So What?
dkreichen1968 1 year ago
@dkreichen1968 Fifty percent of children growing up without fathers is the MOTHER'S fault in your confused little mind? And no, Hun, when you start throwing around terms like Natural Law, even when I don't agree with it, you're directly referencing , in his own terminology, Darwinism, Charles Darwin, which you seem completely oblivious to. Something tells me that your body of reading is very limited, and that you're probably very lonely.
abbeyism 1 year ago
@abbeyism Maybe you should Google the term before you go off thinking that Natural Law has something to do with Charles Darwin. Maybe Google Thomas Aquinus and Natural Law. And yes, the fact that 50% of children grow up without their fathers in the home is largely caused by the selfishness of the MOTHERS. Are men selfish and therefore part of the problem, yes. But, that doesn't excuse women's selfish controlling behavior.
dkreichen1968 1 year ago
@dkreichen1968 Honestly, this blind absolute hostility you have against women you don't know, in broad generalized situations you are not part of, makes you sound abusive, or a would be abuser, and or a closet case. I really hope some poor woman doesnt take a beating for what I've just told you, since I am one woman, and she would be another. See how they're different? The state of the modern church attracts men like this. Glad to have escaped those violent horrors.
abbeyism 1 year ago
@abbeyism I would have to point out that you don't know what I've been through, as I don't know what you've been through. Men aren't the only abusers. Women can be abusers and users too. What I'm proud of is that during my 4 year nightmare, even while experiencing verbal, emotional, and yes, even physical abuse on a almost daily basis, I never struck back physically. And after she had used me up and bankrupted me she discarded me like last weeks trash. Yes, I'm somewhat hostile.
dkreichen1968 1 year ago
@dkreichen1968 Would you like to hear what I've been put through by men that I didn't even volunteer for? As a child? In one of the families these self rightous assholes are promoting? Men are good at being such martyrs without ever seeing the underside the female population suffer. Thats it. That's all. Men are soverign tyrants in the Christian religion and THATS why they're dogmatic about it
abbeyism 1 year ago
@dkreichen1968 This and other posts from this "pastor" monster and his poor brain washed wife are sending the message that the best women can do for themselves is find a tolerable man and submit. It's a nightmare, and it's promoting viscious cycles of abuse, misery and humilation for women in insufferable circumstances in the country. (If I hear freedom and America one more time). This attitude is also minimizing to people and their individual potential for God, who wants and uses everybody.
abbeyism 1 year ago
@abbeyism Who do you think is happier, you, or Pastor Mark's "brain washed wife"? You certainly have some issues, and I don't know the circumstances behind them, but I do know one thing, they aren't because you were part of the type of family that Pastor Mark is promoting. Sounds like your father wasn't holding up his end of the bargain. There are Biblical ways of dealing with that.
dkreichen1968 1 year ago
@dkreichen1968 My father WAS a pastor, idiot. We did our best to survive that shivers back to me. I am quite happy now that I have my freedom, but every once in awhile, I look back in compassion at people still trapped and painted into those corners. Trust me, sweetheart, I am the one that knows what they're talking about here. The scariest part is that everyone thinks their church is different until the long term destruction is done. How can anyone stop the insanity?
abbeyism 1 year ago
@abbeyism Just because your father was the pastor doesn't mean that he was holding up his end of the bargain, or that he had any proper accountablity to his congregation. I grew up in a Biblical family where both spouses and the children were happy and no one was abused, so I know that such things both can and do exist. You seem to be somewhat myopic in defining the universe by your quite limited and distorted experience. Based on this conversation, I don't think you're happy.
dkreichen1968 1 year ago
@dkreichen1968 Talk about limited and distorted experience, you're the one helping this man-boy attack women because you got into what sounds like a bad marriage. The widespread devastation caused by most churches is bigger than this. Im telling you I'm happier now, you're PRONOUNCING to the world that you're "hostile". And by the way, I think bargain is bad word for love, life and family. My father worked his fingers to the bone for demanding Christians and collapsed under impossible doctrine.
abbeyism 1 year ago
@abbeyism There seems to be a lot more to your story than your letting on. There is no way for me to judge your situation based on the information you've given me. I can say that you have no place to judge Mark Driscol or his wife. Since I don't live in Seattle, go to their church, or know them personally, I have no idea what goes on in their home. I can tell you that God is true, and every man a liar. So, when they speak God's Word they speak the truth. Arguing with God gets you nowhere.
dkreichen1968 1 year ago
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dkreichen1968 1 year ago
Marriages are built on trust. True! Prenups show a lack of trust. True! But, trust is earned. When you get married you are putting yourself into a position where the other person can take extreme advantange of you. I've known a person who married a woman who was already married to someone else. Three years and 1 child later she cleaned out the bank account and left. Another person was defrauded out of $75,000 by a woman who "loves Jesus." Do you protect yourself? If so, how?
dkreichen1968 2 years ago
Halleluyah our Father.
In satan world your wrong and we are living in satan world for now.
Brother Phil.
ath16 2 years ago
yea we live in the world
but
we are not of the world
lagook 2 years ago
Halleluyah Our Father.
Oh how I wish you were right, but somehow people put a lot on the world of money and having things even the churchers. If they came to take what this preacher has he would fight with all he has and the same goes for the woman on here. I pray so hard that I could let them have it all and never look back but my mind was given to the world when I was just a child. Foregive Our Father for I am weak please help me a sinner....Brother Phil.
ath16 2 years ago
the woman is his wife?
sorry what do you mean all that he has? you almost preaching a monastic lifestyle....
lagook 2 years ago