Everybody just go grab a rifle and try it, with transitions, building clearing, target shooting and what ever else the seals taught you. If you dont try it then dont shoot it down.
If this stance works for the pros then it should work for anyone. Still I will reserve final judgement until I have time to give it a try for myself at the range. In your experience, does using this stance have an impact on shooting around obstacles, mag changes, etc? You can only tell so much from a video. Also, and this is just a random thought, I personally don't know how comfortable I'd be using this stance with a short-barrel rifle with all that muzzle blast so close to my hand.
This stance really helps in transition from target to target and follow-up shots. There is just about no muzzle rise when you lean forward real aggressively. Set up multiple targets and shoot them multiple times and you'll see what I mean.
With a short barrel rifle, you obviously can't extend your arm all the way out, but try to get it out as far as you can.
What is the huge question about this stance? It's obvious that nearly every widely respected firearms trainers are now using this shooting technique, including Travis Haley and Kyle Lamb, each having extremely significant real combat experience (Force Recon and CAG/Delta). It seems like that should be proof in itself. As for CQB, I honestly wonder if anyone has even tried this. I personally see very little difference in how far the muzzle sticks out when comparing the isosceles and normal stance
Sorry. But I think it's hilarious that, almost to a person, the people that are the most outspoken against this stance, or pretty much ANY firearm video here or otherwise, have either a "Private" channel (perpetual complainers or professional trolls) or have ZERO uploaded videos. That tells ME that they're talking out of their sphincter.
If it ever stops raining I'm going to have to try this one.
interesting I see that occasionally when I go to block people who are lame.. but I haven't tracked down every lame comment (that might be a full time job, lol)
yeah, not practical in the real world. fine for target. if you can't shoot accurately with a more traditional natural stance, then maybe you should reconsider shooting all together.
While I can see the benefits,wouldn't this trip, at some point, interfere with a sight picture? It looks like the thumb being on top of the barrel, it could interfere.... I'm gonna go try it right now.
Won't the muzzle rise be very hard to control with your arm extended like that? I just can't see the practical use here. I get your point about the same possision with the left arm, but you'll train your brain to use a dissadvantage. better to have one rifle and one handgun tecnuiqe. (In my opinion)
well no, that is the whole point.. it does look kinda odd, but you are using your skeletal system to run the gun more than muscles, so it is much more rigid while not fatiguing the arm as much as other stances
Personally I don't really like the Isosceles rifle stance. With nearly 30 years shooting the AR platform, I'm fairly stuck in my ways, BUT. I do see some merit in it's use, and it has strength in preventing shaking by making an "A-Frame" to the muzzle, so I can see benefit for 3-gun, but it's the worst hold for CQB. Each stance is a tool for your tool box, and for each job that requires a firearm, you alway select the correct tool... If you only have one tool, your not a flexible enough shooter.
I understand your POV, I was exactly the same not too long ago, until at a Massad Ayoob course it was explained to me and it "clicked", I gave it an honest try and it is seriously MUCH easier to shoot a rifle this way quickly
No one is paying us to promote a free thing anyone can do or not.. but it has dramatically improved all of our performance so it seems like it's worth another attempt to explain it once in a while..
I like to share new aspects of shooting that impress me
You're not suppose to be in that stance for a long time, so comfort isn't the issue. post up, and shoot the issue. BUT the main point of the stance, is because most operators have armor. For maximum effectiveness of the armor, you need to square up to the target. So if you do get shot, you get hit in the middle with the plates, not in the side where you don't have plates.
I have an ISSC MK22, it is a scar clone. I can't seem to find enough room for my arm to be fully extended. Is this a problem that occurs on the real scar? Thanks in advance,
@Montyfiable Travis Haley, used to be a magpul instructor, now branched off. Just released this video. He talks about your issue, and has a fix for it. His channel is HaleyStrategic.
I think that the thumb-over-bore stance would have been better compared to holding a spear rather than a fire hose. You hold a spear with one hand further up because of the control it gives over the tip, and a rifle is basically a spear that shoots bullets. Hell, add a bayonet and it is literally one.
It's interesting to see different schools of thought as far as holding a firearm goes. To me, the isosceles looks like it does just as much good as any other stance, the point is to train with what you like best until you get it right, then keep doing it until you can't get it wrong.
People attacking this at like this is the only position you are advocating. This is a tool in your toolbag, folks. It is great for close to mid range engagements of multiple targets, especially while on the move. There is absolutely no implication that you have to stand there 24/7 like this. If you're standing behind a building waiting for an airstrike, nobody is saying you have to stand like this. ssdsurf has a good commentary on this in his video entitled Extended Rifle Hold - FAQ #3
Not one stance will fit the bill for all scenarios. This stance is great for certain things, but it's not the idea if you're trying to shoot bullseyes at 600 yards. Learn the strengths and weaknesses of all the different stances, practice them and utilize them when the situation calls for it.
People who bash this stance have either never tried it or don't shoot competitively. The point of this stance is to quickly shoot at different targets without over-swing as you shoot form target to target. This is an "in action" shooting position, not a position that you stay in the whole time, everytime, and all day. Go watch 3 gun competitions and most of them will shoot in this position because it simply is the best stance to use when engaging multiple targets, while on the move, rapidly.
I play around with the isosceles stance sometimes with my AR and AK. The one thing I do not like about utilizing this stance with rifles is that my arm gets fatigued faster, especially with a heavier rifle such as an accessorized AK. And im not a weak guy by any means lol.
I think it's great that you pointed that out. In combat you wanna go with the most efficient....at least I assume. @MrMoustashioable you might have some valid points but if some one was training like this and trained for their cardio, the fatigue and all would be small compared to some one that isn't trained in the field.
This comment has received too many negative votesshow
with his sagging arm, he will not have enough strength to keep the gun steady or to hold the gun at all. also as you may have noticed that his thumb was covering the iron site to his rifle. someone who has learned this stance and made it their habit to do that, is also quite foolish because lets say that you had takn the scope off that gun and put it on another. now that gun only has its iron sights. when the man goes to mount his gun and look down the sights, all he is going to see is his thumb
sounds like you haven't shot an AR too much.. there is approx 3" offset between the sight and the bore.. you could pack a sack lunch where his thumb was and never obstruct the line of sight.. come on.. why do you feel the need to try so hard to crap on a simple stance.. does it cost something to try it? do you feel bad if other people try new things? or did someone just piss in your cereal today?
@MrMoustashioable like i said, iv used this stance enough tobe confident with it and mabe at first it takes some getting used to, but the more you train with it, the more steady you will be. and my tumb doesnt get in the way so long as i maintain a consistant grip and make sure its the propper grip. i also have noproblem with it getting in the way of my eotech.
I understand the theology behind the stance but to do it is simply foolish. Sure it keeps the gun stable, but the question is for how long? as you noticed in the the video, that gentlman's arm was extended all the way out and was in its "locked" position. in it "locked" position there is minimal blood flow to the arm which in return causes in consistencies in his shooting. for example with the minimal amount of oxygen getting to the rest of his arm, it will become tired and begin to sag.
@MrMoustashioable iv spent enough time on the range to say its just a training issue. the more you train in this stance, the more your body will just get used to it.at least for my personal body structure. what you should ask yourself is are all the advantages enough for you personally to use this stance. if your not shooting tactically, or not trying to remain efficient and consistant while being faster, then use what your already confortable with. hope it helped.
yea, no one ever said otherwise.. don't take things to extremes.. if you don't like a stance, then don't use it.. but why slander it as though it costs something for other people to try it?
Do you come from that town in footloose where they outlaw modern dancing?
@MrMoustashioable if you want to chicken wing it out there with your mag well grip and weaver stance than go ahead. no one is trying to convert you...
good point, didnt think or hear of that one yet. another awsome advantage is you dont have to shuffle your feet when trainsitioning right to left sholder, its just a smooth transition with no eccessive waste movements.
@minielk454 Try swinging your rifle around and stopping on a target holding way back by the mag, then try it holding as close to the muzzle as you can, because that grip point is further foreward, the leverage is less and so its easier to stop the rifle on the target after swinging to it.
@minielk454 there are all sorts of advantages with this stance. youcan tranistion sholders faster and more consistantly, work cover easier, consistant stance when walking or just standing, squared with target to take a round to a plate, and the list goes on. hope it helped, look into the stance.
no one says you need to use it, do what you want.. we were just talking about it and decided to make a quick video describing this aspect of the stance for both rifle and pistol
that wont work with my AK lol, and thats how i shoot my pistol anyways.
BigSean1992 1 month ago
Everybody just go grab a rifle and try it, with transitions, building clearing, target shooting and what ever else the seals taught you. If you dont try it then dont shoot it down.
w3g3l 1 month ago
If this stance works for the pros then it should work for anyone. Still I will reserve final judgement until I have time to give it a try for myself at the range. In your experience, does using this stance have an impact on shooting around obstacles, mag changes, etc? You can only tell so much from a video. Also, and this is just a random thought, I personally don't know how comfortable I'd be using this stance with a short-barrel rifle with all that muzzle blast so close to my hand.
laptopcommando 1 month ago
@laptopcommando
This stance really helps in transition from target to target and follow-up shots. There is just about no muzzle rise when you lean forward real aggressively. Set up multiple targets and shoot them multiple times and you'll see what I mean.
With a short barrel rifle, you obviously can't extend your arm all the way out, but try to get it out as far as you can.
Liist 1 month ago
Comment removed
cheetok1ng470 1 month ago
Do you lock your left elbow all the way? Or is it just max extension it is hard to see from the video.
w3g3l 2 months ago
@w3g3l
mine is extended, but not locked
GunWebsites 1 month ago
ohhhh ok
JDW857 2 months ago
What is the huge question about this stance? It's obvious that nearly every widely respected firearms trainers are now using this shooting technique, including Travis Haley and Kyle Lamb, each having extremely significant real combat experience (Force Recon and CAG/Delta). It seems like that should be proof in itself. As for CQB, I honestly wonder if anyone has even tried this. I personally see very little difference in how far the muzzle sticks out when comparing the isosceles and normal stance
ctres94 2 months ago
@ctres94
I hear you.. I was against this too, blowing it off as a 'fad' until I realized what you say.. people I respect do it and they don't have to..
so we try to introduce it once in a while to help others who haven't really tried it out yet
GunWebsites 2 months ago
Sorry. But I think it's hilarious that, almost to a person, the people that are the most outspoken against this stance, or pretty much ANY firearm video here or otherwise, have either a "Private" channel (perpetual complainers or professional trolls) or have ZERO uploaded videos. That tells ME that they're talking out of their sphincter.
If it ever stops raining I'm going to have to try this one.
lostburro 2 months ago
@lostburro
interesting I see that occasionally when I go to block people who are lame.. but I haven't tracked down every lame comment (that might be a full time job, lol)
GunWebsites 2 months ago
1 more rep towards success
H3artl3ssN00b 2 months ago
yeah, not practical in the real world. fine for target. if you can't shoot accurately with a more traditional natural stance, then maybe you should reconsider shooting all together.
lumberdog100 2 months ago
@lumberdog100
..your 'logic' isn't sound, you suggest others should shoot worse than they could, so you don't feel left behind?
GunWebsites 2 months ago 5
Bone structure is what makes this work people. You want to use as least amount of your muscles. It works, its combat tested, mother approved
usmccapdevil 2 months ago
While I can see the benefits,wouldn't this trip, at some point, interfere with a sight picture? It looks like the thumb being on top of the barrel, it could interfere.... I'm gonna go try it right now.
kmiracle1984 2 months ago
@kmiracle1984
not on an AR style rifle. on normal rifles you would not wrap the thumb
GunWebsites 2 months ago
If some of the best shooters in the world use this stance, I think it is worth considering.
TheVarianWrynn 2 months ago
Won't the muzzle rise be very hard to control with your arm extended like that? I just can't see the practical use here. I get your point about the same possision with the left arm, but you'll train your brain to use a dissadvantage. better to have one rifle and one handgun tecnuiqe. (In my opinion)
ZeaMoore4 2 months ago
@ZeaMoore4
well no, that is the whole point.. it does look kinda odd, but you are using your skeletal system to run the gun more than muscles, so it is much more rigid while not fatiguing the arm as much as other stances
GunWebsites 2 months ago
Personally I don't really like the Isosceles rifle stance. With nearly 30 years shooting the AR platform, I'm fairly stuck in my ways, BUT. I do see some merit in it's use, and it has strength in preventing shaking by making an "A-Frame" to the muzzle, so I can see benefit for 3-gun, but it's the worst hold for CQB. Each stance is a tool for your tool box, and for each job that requires a firearm, you alway select the correct tool... If you only have one tool, your not a flexible enough shooter.
weaponeer 2 months ago
@weaponeer
I understand your POV, I was exactly the same not too long ago, until at a Massad Ayoob course it was explained to me and it "clicked", I gave it an honest try and it is seriously MUCH easier to shoot a rifle this way quickly
No one is paying us to promote a free thing anyone can do or not.. but it has dramatically improved all of our performance so it seems like it's worth another attempt to explain it once in a while..
I like to share new aspects of shooting that impress me
GunWebsites 2 months ago 2
Good stuff. Although it's shooters preference, THIS is in MY opinion the best stance
jkatz44 2 months ago
..i'd have to try it out before i knock it, but just trying it right here i see it's a bit awkward for me..
TitanTony407 2 months ago
@TitanTony407
it is, it took me a while to understand it, but once you are locked in, the benefits are obvious
GunWebsites 2 months ago
You're not suppose to be in that stance for a long time, so comfort isn't the issue. post up, and shoot the issue. BUT the main point of the stance, is because most operators have armor. For maximum effectiveness of the armor, you need to square up to the target. So if you do get shot, you get hit in the middle with the plates, not in the side where you don't have plates.
littl32an 2 months ago
For people like me who like iron sights it is just not practical. But to each his own. :) It doesn't mean I don't love GunWebsites :)
ArtisanTony 2 months ago
@ArtisanTony
this is for ARs only but on an AR it don't matter what kind of sights are used there is a 3" difference between the sight plane and the barrel
for other rifles you wouldn't wrap your thumb over of course
GunWebsites 2 months ago
@GunWebsites Roger! :)
ArtisanTony 2 months ago
I got a question, how does this work when using a carbine with a short grip? Can you still use the stance or is it just for the Mid Length rifles?
eviljagtech 2 months ago
(Insert comment critiquing stance)
Transporter1022 2 months ago
I have an ISSC MK22, it is a scar clone. I can't seem to find enough room for my arm to be fully extended. Is this a problem that occurs on the real scar? Thanks in advance,
Montyfiable 2 months ago
@Montyfiable Travis Haley, used to be a magpul instructor, now branched off. Just released this video. He talks about your issue, and has a fix for it. His channel is HaleyStrategic.
Sorry i cant post the link, youtube wont let me
littl32an 2 months ago
@littl32an Thank you.
Montyfiable 2 months ago
Question, what sling is he using? Is it the brand new MS3 sling from MAGPUL or a rifle sling from BDS Tactical? Correct me if I'm wrong.
LilATL94 2 months ago
I think that the thumb-over-bore stance would have been better compared to holding a spear rather than a fire hose. You hold a spear with one hand further up because of the control it gives over the tip, and a rifle is basically a spear that shoots bullets. Hell, add a bayonet and it is literally one.
Xhaleon 2 months ago
Great tip thanks. Never noticed that before
Derail07 2 months ago
so many people trolling over a stance, sad really, i mean at least try it before moaning and bitching
TheAlexagius 2 months ago
I love you GWebs......
joshlone1982 2 months ago
Come on guys - THEY ARE JUST TRYING TO SHOW YOU SOMETHING DIFFERENT .
If you don`t like it don`t try it, simple .
But KEEP AN OPEN MIND .
Figure14HH 2 months ago
Very Intersting, never saw it that way but thanks for loading this one, it made me think.
Shadowhunter712 2 months ago
Use what works best for you
Ninety9Soulz 2 months ago 3
It's interesting to see different schools of thought as far as holding a firearm goes. To me, the isosceles looks like it does just as much good as any other stance, the point is to train with what you like best until you get it right, then keep doing it until you can't get it wrong.
GTHarmon87 2 months ago
Some may choose to utilize this stance with a rifle, but it won't be me. Use what works best for you, not what someone else thinks you should doing.
pcnightmare52 2 months ago
Interesting observation.
MrM2hb 2 months ago
Comment removed
MrM2hb 2 months ago
★★★★★
TheMultiGunMan 2 months ago
People attacking this at like this is the only position you are advocating. This is a tool in your toolbag, folks. It is great for close to mid range engagements of multiple targets, especially while on the move. There is absolutely no implication that you have to stand there 24/7 like this. If you're standing behind a building waiting for an airstrike, nobody is saying you have to stand like this. ssdsurf has a good commentary on this in his video entitled Extended Rifle Hold - FAQ #3
032125 2 months ago 7
Not one stance will fit the bill for all scenarios. This stance is great for certain things, but it's not the idea if you're trying to shoot bullseyes at 600 yards. Learn the strengths and weaknesses of all the different stances, practice them and utilize them when the situation calls for it.
aestusx 2 months ago
im tempted to try this...
SHARPPSHOOTER21 2 months ago
People who bash this stance have either never tried it or don't shoot competitively. The point of this stance is to quickly shoot at different targets without over-swing as you shoot form target to target. This is an "in action" shooting position, not a position that you stay in the whole time, everytime, and all day. Go watch 3 gun competitions and most of them will shoot in this position because it simply is the best stance to use when engaging multiple targets, while on the move, rapidly.
aestusx 2 months ago 2
Great info....thanks a lot!
DocTacDad 2 months ago
I play around with the isosceles stance sometimes with my AR and AK. The one thing I do not like about utilizing this stance with rifles is that my arm gets fatigued faster, especially with a heavier rifle such as an accessorized AK. And im not a weak guy by any means lol.
yborzenko 2 months ago
I think it's great that you pointed that out. In combat you wanna go with the most efficient....at least I assume. @MrMoustashioable you might have some valid points but if some one was training like this and trained for their cardio, the fatigue and all would be small compared to some one that isn't trained in the field.
lazarra101 2 months ago
This comment has received too many negative votes show
with his sagging arm, he will not have enough strength to keep the gun steady or to hold the gun at all. also as you may have noticed that his thumb was covering the iron site to his rifle. someone who has learned this stance and made it their habit to do that, is also quite foolish because lets say that you had takn the scope off that gun and put it on another. now that gun only has its iron sights. when the man goes to mount his gun and look down the sights, all he is going to see is his thumb
MrMoustashioable 2 months ago
@MrMoustashioable
sounds like you haven't shot an AR too much.. there is approx 3" offset between the sight and the bore.. you could pack a sack lunch where his thumb was and never obstruct the line of sight.. come on.. why do you feel the need to try so hard to crap on a simple stance.. does it cost something to try it? do you feel bad if other people try new things? or did someone just piss in your cereal today?
GunWebsites 2 months ago 44
@GunWebsites lol, no doubt man…..that's just funny.
Peace
dwilhoite 2 months ago
@MrMoustashioable like i said, iv used this stance enough tobe confident with it and mabe at first it takes some getting used to, but the more you train with it, the more steady you will be. and my tumb doesnt get in the way so long as i maintain a consistant grip and make sure its the propper grip. i also have noproblem with it getting in the way of my eotech.
humboldtgunguy 2 months ago
@MrMoustashioable huh? may i ask if you shot any type of fire arm before? any formal training? judging by your comments im guessing not
Mr2fierce 2 months ago
I understand the theology behind the stance but to do it is simply foolish. Sure it keeps the gun stable, but the question is for how long? as you noticed in the the video, that gentlman's arm was extended all the way out and was in its "locked" position. in it "locked" position there is minimal blood flow to the arm which in return causes in consistencies in his shooting. for example with the minimal amount of oxygen getting to the rest of his arm, it will become tired and begin to sag.
MrMoustashioable 2 months ago
@MrMoustashioable iv spent enough time on the range to say its just a training issue. the more you train in this stance, the more your body will just get used to it.at least for my personal body structure. what you should ask yourself is are all the advantages enough for you personally to use this stance. if your not shooting tactically, or not trying to remain efficient and consistant while being faster, then use what your already confortable with. hope it helped.
humboldtgunguy 2 months ago
@MrMoustashioable
yea, no one ever said otherwise.. don't take things to extremes.. if you don't like a stance, then don't use it.. but why slander it as though it costs something for other people to try it?
Do you come from that town in footloose where they outlaw modern dancing?
GunWebsites 2 months ago 5
@GunWebsites Buzzkillingsville?
MechaRogers 2 months ago
@MrMoustashioable if you want to chicken wing it out there with your mag well grip and weaver stance than go ahead. no one is trying to convert you...
shtfgear 2 months ago
good point, didnt think or hear of that one yet. another awsome advantage is you dont have to shuffle your feet when trainsitioning right to left sholder, its just a smooth transition with no eccessive waste movements.
humboldtgunguy 2 months ago
I'll have to try this out on my XBOX live tonight. I'll let you know what my kill count is later. and
here come the comments.
URBANAMERICANTAC 2 months ago
i don't really see how this could give you more control over the rifle, mabie for target shooting purposes but not for combat.
minielk454 2 months ago
@minielk454 Try swinging your rifle around and stopping on a target holding way back by the mag, then try it holding as close to the muzzle as you can, because that grip point is further foreward, the leverage is less and so its easier to stop the rifle on the target after swinging to it.
Kylef7735 2 months ago
@minielk454 there are all sorts of advantages with this stance. youcan tranistion sholders faster and more consistantly, work cover easier, consistant stance when walking or just standing, squared with target to take a round to a plate, and the list goes on. hope it helped, look into the stance.
humboldtgunguy 2 months ago
@minielk454
no one says you need to use it, do what you want.. we were just talking about it and decided to make a quick video describing this aspect of the stance for both rifle and pistol
GunWebsites 2 months ago
@minielk454 actually ive seen a SASR operator use this stance look him up Jason Falla
5446jesse619 2 months ago
This idea of consistency between the handgun and rifle is exactly what is taught in the Magpul Dynamics DVD.
jimothy183 2 months ago
I will give it a shot...
like what i did there?
adamk1775 2 months ago
excellent! I think I'll practice this with my ar15 that needs 1 last part for completion
toboe399 2 months ago
Very nice
cory07ink 2 months ago