The Fallacy of Fundamentalist Assumptions 3, FAIR Conference

[umaara100]

Could God be a family of beings working with one mind and thought.The Eloheem

[omiolo]

"Again we consider the question once asked by Job: 'Where shall wisdom be found?' (Job 28:12)," Elder Nelson said. "The answer: it emanates from the Lord. It pulses and surges in the Lord's light of truth! With that light, He lifts us toward His glorious goal of eternal life, when we may dwell with Him forever."

[canadianbacon007]

Remind's me that air raid joke in the movie 1941. The general say's "you can't have an air raid without bombs". You can't have a Pantheon of Gods. Because it needs be plural. Pantheon means all the Gods. There needs to be more than one, for the other to exist.

[smpf38]

"The Trinitarian faith of the Church had grown from the older Hebrew belief in a pluriform deity, and so the earliest Christians exegetes had not been innovators when they understood the LORD of the Hebrew Scriptures as the Second God, the Son of El Elyon. The one they recognized as Jesus had been the LORD... Monotheism, in the way that it is usually understood...had been a consequence of changes made in the seventh century BCE, and was not part of the older faith." -M. Barker

[fairldsorg]

Excellent quote smpf38!

[drpsholder]

What I find so funny, is his logical approach at an attempt to understand something that is illogical in the first place.

Why logically question the concepts of God, when the concept of God is illogical.

We have no reason to ask "how did God become a man and God at the same time?", since we have not even proven that God exists in the first place.

Do we ask "How did the unicorn run 55mph?", even tho we have not proven unicorns exist in the first place.

[smpf38]

First of all, whether or not God is illogical or the concept of God is illogical is really a different discussion completely. And this certainly isn't about "proving" whether or not God exists.

This is a man defending his faith. Mormons have been criticized for believing things that "are not consistent with the Bible".

He is simply explaining why criticisms against Mormon theology are quite lacking.

[drpsholder]

Since the bible can be interpreted different ways, this guy can make up anything he wants for his faith. That is the problem.

He is defending his blind faith all the while never questioning the lack of evidence to support his faith.

Should I defend the existence of unicorns all the while there is no evidence to support my defense?

[smpf38]

drp: "Since the bible can be interpreted different ways,.."

Well, that's just it. Mormons are accused of being "unBiblical" and "unChristian". Ostler is simply saying that Mormon theology fits well within the Biblical context.

As to whether or not the Bible is true at all is an entirely different discussion. Do you expect people to stop discussing theology altogether because it can't be "proved"?

[drpsholder]

Since bible can be interpreted different ways, then who is really right? Your translation or the christians? How do you know?

[smpf38]

drps: Since bible can be interpreted different ways, then who is really right?...How do you know?

That is exactly what Joseph Smith asked himself. It was around that time that he read James 1:5 and a sequence of events opened up. The bottom line is that we are supposed ask God for ourselves. Then do what we feel God wants us to do.

[drpsholder]

Could it be his INTERPRETATION of those events, just in the same way that someone would INTERPRET words.

Interpretation is the key word here and this is quite simple if you would open your mind.

Since Smith INTERPRETED events the way he wanted, of course things opened up the way he wanted.

No wonder all holy books are correct, interpret the way you want or to fit current happenings/events; it will work everytime.

[smpf38]

drps: Could it be his INTERPRETATION of those events,...

Sure, and that is fine. We all interpret events and Smith simply said that we should ask God for ourselves.  Then it is up to us to interpret the answer and make decisions for ourselves.

[drpsholder]

Whether you ask God or not, you will still interpret and make decisions for yourself.........which proves you don't need a God to guide you; IF God exists at all.

[smpf38]

drps: Whether you ask God or not, you will still interpret and make decisions for yourself...

I agree that you must still make the decision for yourself, however, the guidance is helpful.

drps: ..which proves you don't need a God to guide you..

I fail to see how your point "proves" anything.

[drpsholder]

Doing a rain dance, then experiencing rain.....does not mean your dance caused the rain.....when the rain was going to occur anyway.

Asking God for guidance, then experiencing events.......does not prove that God guiding you in your experiences.

You don't need God to tell you right from wrong, good from bad. It is common sense and was obtained when we moved from neolithic period to more communal living.

[smpf38]

drps: Asking God for guidance, then experiencing events.......does not prove....

Faith and proof don't have much to do with one another. As I said, Ostler is not proving one theology is true. He is basically saying, "within this theological construct, these are the problems or inconsistencies that arise".

It is like an IF...THEN statement. We aren't here trying to prove the "Ifs". Instead we are playing out the possible "ifs". That would be an entirely different discussion.

[smpf38]

Here is a great Biblical scholar on these subjects: Michael S. Heiser

w w w (dot) thedivinecouncil (dot) com

It argues for the God's divine council in heaven.

[smpf38]

LDS scripture

Doctrine and Covenants 121:32 "According to that which was ordained in the midst of the Council of the Eternal God of all other gods before this world was"

[drpsholder]

You can't believe me, for if you did.......your God would punish you in hell!

So, no matter how hard you try and I can see that you are trying exceptionally hard......you just CAN'T do it!

Remove your fear from your logic!

[smpf38]

drps: You can't believe me, for if you did.......your God would punish you in hell!

Remove your fear from your logic!

LDS do not "fear hell" and God's "punishment" in the same way that other religions do.

[drpsholder]

Then what does your God to do you if you act in a BAD way without asking for forgiveness???

Does he a)Praise you for bad acts?

b) Do nothing to you for bad acts?

c)Punish you for bad acts?

Do you fear praise, nothing, or punishment???

If you don't fear punishment.......then do you fear praise or nothing?

[smpf38]

drps: If you don't fear punishment.......then do you fear praise or nothing?

I don't fear anything.

[drpsholder]

Ahhhh, so if you worship another God.......then your God will NOT punish you?

If you sin and don't repent...........then your God will NOT punish you?

Hmmmmmm.....do you know you are saying the opposite of what the Holy Books tell you??

If you sin and don't repent.........does your God praise you?

[smpf38]

drps: If you sin and don't repent...then your God will NOT punish you?

If I choose to sin, that in itself becomes a punishment. I would be punishing myself. I decide on what kind of life I will have (for the most part), and what kind of afterlife I will have based on my own decisions.

Knowing my character and personality. My afterlife will fall somewhere between really good and better. I am not worried about it at all.

[drpsholder]

Jesus says that we should fear God since he has the power to kill us and then torture us forever in hell.

Those who do not believe in Jesus will be cast into a fire to be burned.

For some reason, I find a lot of killing based on beliefs and NOT obeying God. Who is person doing this JUDGEMENT for punishment? God, Santa Claus, The flying spaghetti monster??????

[drpsholder]

If you sin, then repent, then you are forgiven by God, i.e. NO punishment.

If you sin, then never repent, then you are punished by God!

[smpf38]

Why would I not repent?

[drpsholder]

You HAVE to. Not a question if you would or would not.  YOu HAVE to!

Why follow God's orders.......just repent man!

[smpf38]

drps: You HAVE to. Not a question if you would or would not. YOu HAVE to!

Are you arguing against free will or something?

I don't I "have to". I want to.

[drpsholder]

AGain, you have proven you are dishonest, which shows you are NOT worthy of discussion.

People of this forum, please read thru the comments and see for yourself.

There is no point in showing a dishonest person anything.............since they will just be dishonest.

[smpf38]

drps: ...you have proven you are dishonest

Me? Let's look at you for a moment,

drps: "Jesus says that we should fear God since he has the power to kill us and then torture us forever in hell. Those who do not believe in Jesus will be cast into a fire to be burned."

I think it is you who is being dishonest if you claim that we believe that God does the torturing. You are dishonest because you pretend that we think "cast into a fire" is a literal statement. Hyperbole, simile, metaphor, etc.

[drpsholder]

Right!! HAHAHA I have already told you that I don't talk to dishonest people, but just for fun........and I miss the comedy.

Oh, so God did not create a flood to wipe out the whole human race except Noah?

I get it now. God killed all humans except Noah.........and this is hyperbole, simile or a metaphor. For what? KILLING???

Now, if you want to be dishonest and tell me that God did not create a flood........then go right ahead and believe what you want. It makes you look right!!

[smpf38]

DRPS: God killed all humans except Noah.....

First of all, physical death is the least of our worries if our existence is eternal and our mortal life is nothing more than a blink of an eye.

Second, if these people were "wicked", it is because they chose to be. Again, they decide their own fate just like anybody else by making certain choices.

[drpsholder]

Death is the least of our worries IF, IF, IF our existence is eternal.........but how do you prove our existence is eternal. How do you know? Have you been there and tested it to see?

Since we haven't proven our existence is eternal, why on earth do you believe it is and enough so that it controls your life? Isn't that amazing? HAHA

Should I let unicorns control my life. Should I let an unproven control my life? Would you think I was smart or stupid if i did? Just asking!

[smpf38]

drps: ...but how do you prove our existence is eternal. How do you know?

Believing something and proving something are not equal. I believe many things that have been proven, but I also believe many things that have not been proven.

drps: ...why on earth do you believe it is and enough so that it controls your life?

Why do you think that this particular belief "controls" my life? In fact, this particular belief says that I am in control of my own life as an independent agent.

[drpsholder]

"I believe many things that have been proven, but I also believe many things that have not been proven."

Based on LOGIC, right???

Is it logical for me to have a ghost in my closet? NOW, since this is unproven, you don't believe.

Is it logical for me to have a dog in my house? NOW, since this is unproven, you CAN BELIEVE.

So, if something is unproven, but illogical, it will NOT be believed.

If something is unproven, but LOGICAL, it CAN be believed.

RIGHT??????? U agree???????

[drpsholder]

cont....Since living things adapt to their environment over short periods of time, what COULD happen in longer periods of time. Use LOGIC please. Remember, logical things CAN be believed. Illogical things need more proo.

So, what could happen over long periods of time? Logical = believeable without further proof. Illogical = requires more proof.

Is it logical that multiple adaptations, in combination, over millions of yrs can form different species?

[drpsholder]

"I believe many things........been proven."

If I told you that my dad has special powers and can walk on water, would you believe me without proof??

SEE, how if I give you an illogical statement, you would want proof?

Before humans knew anything, it was logical to think of a God creating everything. What else could have?

But now that we know more......What else could have?......gets answered and its not God!

[drpsholder]

"Why do you think that this particular belief "controls" my life?"

Try to NOT worship God! Try to NOT attend church, pray, repent, etc. Try to accept Islam. Try to accept evolution.

Question: Before you try.......what does your God say will happen to you if you do? Punish, praise, or nothing? What will happen to you IF YOU DO???

Why do you NOT believe in Islam? PUnishment, praise, nothing??

If your god will do nothing, then you CAN believe. If he praises you, you will believe.

[drpsholder]

TRy to do things against your holy book. When you realize that you can't without the fear of getting punished, NOT praised, then you will realize the amount of control it has on your life.

I don't have to pray, attend church, worship a God. I can believe in Islam if I want without the FEAR of a God punishing me.

I can believe in evolution, without the fear of God's punishment.

IF you believe in evolution, you think God will punish you, NOT praise you.

It controls your life via beliefs.

[drpsholder]

Since those people were wicked..........God killed them to start anew!

[drpsholder]

Oh, looky!

Onan was killed by God for refusing to carry on his brother Er's family line.

Was Onan killed by Satan or God or someone else?

Was the human race, except Noah and his family, killed in a flood created by God?

Who is the ultimate JUDGER? God, right?

So, God would send you to hell, then Satan would take over.........but God still sent you to hell!

But I bet you can't believe me.........because your God would punish you if you did!!!

Don't let religion control your beliefs

[smpf38]

drps: Who is the ultimate JUDGER? God, right? So, God would send you to hell, then Satan would take over.........but God still sent you to hell!

Calm down dude. Let's say you stick your hand on a hot stove. Is it God's fault because he didn't stop the laws of physics that made your hand burn? 

No. In LDS theology, God respects existing laws which say that there are consequences for our actions. He also takes advantage of laws that can be used to help redeem us from our poor choices.

[drpsholder]

Oh, so robbing is a LAW of physics? So, rapping an innocent person is a law of physics? So, sin is a law of physics?? WOW, did not know that!

If there are only 2 people on earth and I kill him...........would a law of physics punish me??? Please tell me more, you make so much sense when you compare something completely UNRELATED to another.

Why you compare a law of physics to punishment of God is beyond me! OH, it makes you look right! NOW, i get it!

[smpf38]

drps: Oh, so robbing is a LAW of physics? So, rapping an innocent person is a law of physics? So, sin is a law of physics?? ..would a law of physics punish me? Why you compare a law of physics to punishment of God is beyond me!

I was using physics as an analogy. Certainly you can grasp the idea that laws (other than physics) can and do exist.

Since when do laws have to ALL fit under the category of "physics"?

[drpsholder]

Since when do laws have to ALL fit under the category of "physics"?

Did I limit my response to 'physics' because thats the only law you used as an analogy? YES. Since this is what I did, I by no means, catagorized laws to mean ALL fit under the category of 'physics'

Don't be ridiculous!

[smpf38]

drps: Did I limit my response to 'physics' because thats the only law you used as an analogy? YES.

Not only was it just an analogy, but I followed that analogy with an idea that was not physics. Then you began to equate that analogy inappropriately.

drps: I by no means, catagorized laws to mean ALL fit under the category of 'physics'.

Good. After giving the physics example, I explained that "In LDS theology, God respects existing laws which say that there are consequences for our actions."

[drpsholder]

"First you gave analogy of physics.

Then you said......In LDS theology, God respects existing laws which say that there are consequences for our actions."

First, its still the ONLY existing law that you gave!

Since this is the ONLY existing law that you used, this is one I picked on.

But, I admit, that I was WRONG for picking on it. I think i understand now! Thanks!

[drpsholder]

The magician performed well that night. AWE, filled the room. ONce he was done, the magician proceeded to explain to the audience on HOW he performed his tricks. He was going to expose his magic, and he did. Despite the magician revealing his tricks, some still believed that he performed REAL magic.

Some people are just never gonna get it!

[smpf38]

drps: Despite the magician revealing his tricks, some still believed that he performed REAL magic.

LDS do not believe that God performs magic or does anything "supernatural". As I already explained, we believe that God works within natural laws.  However, many of these natural laws we are only barely beginning to understand, and some are way beyond our current understanding.

[drpsholder]

drps: Despite the magician revealing his tricks, some still believed that he performed REAL magic.

smp: LDS do not believe that God performs magic or does anything "supernatural"."

No matter what some people are shown or told or proven, they are just never going to get it!

[drpsholder]

"As I already explained, we believe that God works within natural laws."

Of course you do...this is logical...IF GOD EXISTS!! It is logical for God to work within natural laws, unless you have evidence of him NOT!

But just because we have no evidence of him NOT respecting laws, does not prove HE exists no more than it proves Santa Claus exists!!!

If I say that Santa works within natural laws.......can you prove that Santa does not? Since you can't, he must respect natural laws!

[drpsholder]

Since you cant prove that Santa does not respect natural laws.......does that prove Santa exists? Heavens NO! pun, LOL.

Yes, some laws are beyond our understanding and this does not prove a God either! Just because we don't know something does not mean you can fill that Gap with God!

Who made the laws we don't understand? We don't know, but you can't say God did it.........because we don't know!!!

[smpf38]

drps: Since you cant prove that Santa does not respect natural laws.......does that prove Santa exists?

You are going in circles. The purpose of Blake Ostler's discussion here is not to prove that God exists. It is comparing one religious and philosophical construct with another and discusses what would logically follow if one were to assume one construct or another. This is really quite common in academic circles.

I already explained that proving God's existence is a separate topic.

[drpsholder]

"As I already explained, we believe that God works within natural laws."

Of course you do...this is logical...IF GOD EXISTS!! It is logical for God to work within natural laws, unless you have evidence of him NOT!

No matter if Mr. Ostler is discussing God's abilities, creations, sacrifices, etc..........assuming God did these things without the proof of God in the first place is a complete waste of time and good effort!

[drpsholder]

I believe unicorns can run 55mph. Now, let's logically figure it out.

You say no. I say yes. How do we know who is right? How fast can a unicorn run? Well, a horse can run, what 35-45mph, and a unicorn is a small version of horse, so small usually means quick.........therefore unicorns are faster at 55mph!

You say, smaller equals smaller legs, less stride......therefore slower.

Conclusion..why logically assume ANY speed of a unicorn, when unicorns have not been proven.

[smpf38]

drps: Yes, some laws are beyond our understanding and this does not prove a God either!

I didn't say it did. There can be laws above and beyond our understanding regardless of whether or not God exists.

drps: Just because we don't know something does not mean you can fill that Gap with God!

You clearly do not know me. I am not one to "fill the Gap with God".

drps: Who made the laws we don't understand?

Who said they were "made"? The laws simply just exist. God is in harmony with them.

[drpsholder]

drps: Yes, some laws are beyond our understanding and this does not prove a God either!

I didn't say it did. There can be laws above and beyond our understanding regardless of whether or not God exists.

Good, just wanted to stop you traveling down that road. Many christians/Muslims say, "Well, who created them then".......as if that proves a God.

[smpf38]

drps: Good, just wanted to stop you traveling down that road.

Oh, you wanted to stop me from traveling down a road that I wasn't traveling on in the first place?

Thanks ... I guess.

[drpsholder]

Calm down, calm down!

I nipped it in the bud, just to make sure.

[TheOptimusprime9]

I agree with you. Left to human logic alone we cannot know one way or the other if there is a God.

You especially cannot prove God's existence to someone else.

But I would submit that God's existence can be proven to ourselves. Through prayer. Only God can tell you if there is a God.

[drpsholder]

"In LDS theology, God respects existing laws which say that there are consequences for our actions."

We know there are consequences for our actions, so of course you MUST say that God fits that logical conclusion.

Remember, logical is believeable.

It's certainly logical that God respects laws of physics, since we have no evidence of him disrespecting them.

But this draws us to........just because we have no evidence of him disrespeting laws, does not mean he exists.