1977 Swaps Stakes - J.O. Tobin slays Seattle Slew

[disciple90633]

I was actually at this race. My dad took me to it when I was 6 and I actually even remember it well. Now that I can research it more, there are a couple of things to keep in mind. First, J.O. Tobin was unbeatable on this track. He won something like 7 or 8 straight stakes on this track and this race was like 2/5 a second off the WORLD record. So NO ONE was gonna beat J.O. in this race. Second, Slew was an east coast horse and he liked running at Belmont. He had never been out west before.

[c7rfnmn]

@disciple90633 I think that's right.I was at this race too,and was also 6 yrs.old at the time.I still have the program somewhere,with Slew on the cover,as well as a $2 ticket my parents bought me(with the race imprint code "Slew3"-Hollywood Park didn't have computer betting terminals yet).This still ranks as one of the most impressive races I have ever seen,though I obviously didn't realize it at the time.Slew clearly wasn't 100%,but it would've been hard to beat Tobin even if he had been

[PaulDePace]

Wow. I have seen all of these horses in person in other big races, but have never seen this replay. The most shocking part of the race was Seattle Slew...just got run into the ground by J.O. Tobin. Text always had to wait and just got out run. But J.O. Tobin? He was not exactly rating up there! Wow... Impressive. The race reminds you of Secretariat in the Belmont. J.O. Tobin just went out...grabbed that lead....never tired...drew out...and even galloped out...really something that day.

[sl7293]

This was a very impressive win by JO Tobin, who was a supremely talented, but erratic horse. He ran 1:58.3 leading wire-to-wire. Seattle Slew never approached that kind of speed at this distance. Give the winner his due.

[dunsta69]

This is what happens when you go the well once too often. No wonder they sacked the trainer.

[sl7293]

@dunsta69 I don't think Slew went to the well too often. He ran 7 times in that 3 yr old season. By contrast, Damascus ran 16 times as a 3 year old including 2 races per month for seven consecutive months. Secretariat also kept running after the Belmont; ran 12 times that yr.

[DL261]

THE SHOE & THE BALD EAGLE CHARLIE WHITTINGHAM ....... NEVER BET AGAINST THIS TEAM, ...EVER ! - PISI TOTO LEIFI (1936-2010)

[ghostzapper2006]

even a blind rat finds some cheese on occasion, lol

[brunoaltimino]

Slew was sick and wasn not nearly at his best in this race. Slew was a better horse than JO Tobin and would have beaten him if he was himself, without question.

[DanielSong39]

@brunoaltimino Slew was a better horse than JO Tobin and beat him in the Preakness when Slew was himself and J.O. Tobin was less than his best.

You never know what's going to happen on a given day, but that's why they call it horse racing. I prefer to give J.O. Tobin his due for running a phenomenal race.

[brunoaltimino]

@DanielSong39 That was a nice performance by JO Tobin, certainly and by very far his best. But I contend that Slew would have easliy handled him had Slew been well. I believe Slew, the only undefeated winner of the Triple Crown, is a very close second to Secretariat on the all time list, ahead of MOW, Citation, Dr, Fager, etc.

[sl7293]

@brunoaltimino Not so sure about Slew vs Dr Fager. Dr was great at age 3, but much bigger, stronger & faster horse at age 4. In that 1968 yr, he was Horse of the year & Turf, Sprint, and Handicap Champion. No horse ever did that before or since & the Doctor did it carrying 130 lbs or more in every race. In his WR mile, a record which still stands today & set while carrying 134, he ripped a 20.6 sec 2nd qtr, according to Bloodhorse the fastest qtr ever run by a horse in the body of a race.

[brunoaltimino]

@sl7293 First let me say that I do not want to offend the legacy or the fans of Dr. Fager. I realize that Dr. Fager was a great horse. But I do believe Slew was better for several reasons. First, Slew won the Triple Crown while undefeated, the only horse in history to achieve that. Dr. Fager would of had to compete against Damascus if he ran in those races. I have a hard time envisioning him winning the Triple Crown if he had run.

[brunoaltimino]

@sl7293 Slew could be rated and Fager could not. Slew won at 1.5 miles (Belmont) and just missed at the same distance after being pressed hard by a Triple Crown Winner. Fager collapsed after being pressed by Hedevar at shorter distances. Slew would be a big problem for Fager. Head to head my money is on Slew at a mile and an eighth or more. Fager would never get away from Slew. Considering their styles, Slew's ability to rate and greater stamina is the difference.

[sl7293]

@brunoaltimino Apparently, being pressed by Affirmed did not serve Slew well in the JCSC. I don't see why that is a better result than the Dr's 2nd place finish in the Brooklyn handicap he carried 135, ran down world record setting miler and sprint champion Hedevar, lost in a stretch duel to the great Damascus who was carrying 5 lbs less, & Dr still finished 1 1/4 miles under 2:00. On paper, I don't anything in their races & times that gives Slew an edge over the Dr. at 1 1/4 miles or less.

[sl7293]

@brunoaltimino The only 3 horses that ever finished in front of Dr F in a race were all time greats Damacus & Buckpasser & 2 Yr old Champion Successor. Successor defeated the Dr at age 2 and is listed among DRF's greatest thoroughbreds. All three of the above used rabbits. If Slew had ever faced the Dr, let me suggest that he too would have been well advised to also enter a rabbit with WR speed up to a mile.

[sl7293]

@brunoaltimino Don't see why Slew is so superior to those others. Winning the triple crown does not make you #2. Citation won 20 of 21 at age 3, including 16 wins a row which is more than Slew won in his career AND won the triple crown. Dr is the only horse to ever win horse of the year, Turf Champion, Handicap champion, & sprint champion in the same year. Kelso was an iron horse who set world & track records carrying high weight. It's easier to look good if you don't run all the time.

[brunoaltimino]

@DanielSong39 A healthy and fit Slew would have relentlessly stalked JO Tobin into submission by the eight pole. Remember that Slew did not have to have the lead to win. He didn't have it in the Derby nor the Preakness. JO Tobin never came close to that effort before or after that race.

[DanielSong39]

@brunoaltimino J.O. Tobin wasn't a superhorse, but he ran like one on this day.

While Slew was not at his best, health and fitness is part of horse racing. Unfortunately there are no "ifs", we can only go by what happened. J.O. Tobin's performance was nothing short of spectacular. Seattle Slew's health (or lack thereof) doesn't change that fact.

[brunoaltimino]

@DanielSong39 Agreed. Very similar to General Assembly's performance in the 1979 Travers which set the track record up there at Saratoga, which I believe still stands. He was spectacular on that day, but never could reproduce that effort..

[sl7293]

@brunoaltimino Your claim that a healthy Slew would have relentlessly stalked JO Tobin into submission by the eights pole is speculation. It may be wishful thinking. The fact that J.O. Tobin never came close to this effort before or after this race, does not mean that Slew who also never ran 1 1/4 at this speed before or after this race, would have been able to defeat Tobin on this day under any circumstances.

[brunoaltimino]

@sl7293 You have posted alot and each post subtracts integrity from your argument. The tracks in southern California are significantly faster than they are on the east coast. Slew was sick in this race, and nearly died as a result of the illness. Therefore, the race is a throwout for Slew. Tobin was soundly defeated by Slew in the Preakness and was later thumped by Alydar. Move on. Moreover, Slew ran the mile and one eighth Marlboro in 1:45 4/5 after an initial quarter in 24. That's flyin

[sl7293]

@brunoaltimino Tobin's losses to Alydar & Slew are consistent with the idea that was his best effort. Irrespective of Slew's condition on this day, you can't assume would have defeated Tobin even if he was at his best. It's by no means a certainty. Sure this was a West coast track, but Slew never cracked 2:00 at 1 1/4 mi on an East Coast track. That does not mean he couldn't have done so, but it does not mean he could have.

[JayAr709]

@brunoaltimino Well but can you have it both ways? :)

AFFIRMED was sick, in Slew's Marlboro. (Had a throat infection.) Plus, Cauthen inexplicably allowed Cordero that clever pace.

Next, in Slew's JCGC, Affirmed's saddle slipped--& he was "gunned" redundantly beside Life's Hope. (When the idea was to sit back, let the stable-mate keep Seattle Slew honest).

Then too, in Slew's Preakness, J.O.Tobin: "got beat by less than five lengths," as bill Shoe recalls "and had 10 lengths' worth of trouble"

[bbmtge]

@brunoaltimino "would of"

[DanielSong39]

It's not exactly rocket science as to what happened in this race...

Basically, JO Tobin pulled a Secretariat while Seattle Slew had to play the role of Sham on this day. If you try to run at a sick pace, there will be days when you get lapped. Similar thing happened to Affirmed in the Jockey Club Gold Cup.

This is a performance that you'll be lucky to see once in 5 years or so.

[rodd7]

Out with the old in with the NEW. WE NEED A TRIPLE CROWN RACE IN THE WEST COAST. I say do away with the Preakness and move the middle leg to SANTA ANITA. East coast horses always always!!! have AN EDGE. Hello everyone, Home Field Advantage. Sham could not adjust to the Air Pressure, Temperature, Humidity and most Importantly JET LAG. Sham would have annilated secretariat at Santa Anita; Just the way J.O. Tobin devoured seattle slew at Hollywood Park. Something to think about.. Peace

[rscarbro100]

Steve Haskins article titled 'The life And death of Seattle Slew' 21 Sept., 2010. Quote

Turner had to take Slew to Dr. William Reed’s clinic three times in five days, because that’s where the machine was. Each time, he had to tranquilize him. When they shipped to California, Slew had to be tranquilized for the fourth time. He was dull before and during the race and never ran a lick. End of quote.

Very good article by Haskins. Maybe now we know why Slew lost to

Tobin.

[EMCEMITCH]

he shouldnt have been entered in this race after 3 grueling triple crown events

[peter90025]

thank you for uploading this race. i was a fan of j.o. tobin but was only able to listen to the race live as i didnt make it out that day. its great to be able to watch what was a stunning upset but not to believers of tobin's ability.

[DIGBYS]

Seattle Slew is well beaten. Love it

[rscarbro100]

I think Slew just got a good taste of what he would have gone up against if the raced Secretariat here on this lightning fast track. As you know Big Red hit the 1 1/4 mile mark 'Gallping 'Out' his last furlong in 1:57 4/5 in the Marlboro

cup on a 'Wet Fast' track And went through the 1 mile mark in 1:33 flat going real wide in the last turn. (*smile) There was something wrong with Slew in this race for sure. Its not like him to be beaten by 16 lengths. I do think he was one tired horse.

[sl7293]

@rscarbro100 Claims about the time that Secretariat did at 1 1/4 in the 1 1/8 Marlboro are unofficial and should be taken with a grain of salt. Secretariat did the last furlong of the actual Marlboro in 12 2/5 seconds while being "ridden out" by Turcotte. In order for Secretariat to do 1 1/4 in 1:57 4/5, he would have to have run yet another 12 2/5 furlong with the race over and his jockey easing up on him. This seems unlikely and is unofficial hearsay.

[rscarbro100]

@sl7293 It was William Nack claim. He clocked him. You say not likely he would have ran another 12.5 Galloping out?? Remember the Derby race my good man in that 1 1/4 mile distance. He ran the next to last quarter in 23 2/5 & the last in 23 flat. Every quarter in that Derby race was faster than the previous one & your telling me its not likely he could have ran another furlong galloping out in 12.5. You might want to think again.

[sl7293]

@rscarbro100 That was the Derby. In the Marlboro, both Sec and Riva Ridge slow down substantially in the last furlong as if they are both running out of gas. If they had run all 9 furlongs at 12 2/5 seconds, the winning time would have been 1:51.6 and not 1:45. Sec was under a vigorous hand ride in the last furlong, but was eased up at the end of the race. Was Nack a professional time keeper? How did he "clock" the race? What is the margin of error? I am skeptical about unofficial timekeepers.

[TheVeganHere]

Thanks for posting this. I hadn't seen this race for over 30 years. I was at Hollywood Park for this race. I was in high school at the time. I don't even remember who I bet but I do remember who a friend of mine bet. He bet Seattle Slew to show. I told him it was a stupid bet because it was paying 2.10 but he said it was free money. I will never forget Harry Henson's call. "Seattle Slew is well beaten.......". For years I would repeat that to my friend whenever he acted like an ass to me.

[71sunset]

A few words about race caller Harry Henson. I've been to tracks all over the U.S. and to a few in Europe and nobody has ever been able to match Harry as a race caller. IMO nobody really even comes close. Henson's deep, gravelly timbre, his unerring accuracy and his flair for the dramatic combined to make his calls unforgettable. RIP Harry.

@TheVeganHere "Free money" LOL. That's classic! Your friend got exactly what he deserved, and had to hear about for years ;-)

[TheVeganHere]

@71sunset  That was a very well worded, beautiful tribute to Harry Henson. Well done!

[joefederico]

Slews owners were stupid for 2 reasons by entering him here in this race. He was just coming off a TC campaign and shipping out to a fast West coast surface he was not used to. He also happened to run into JO Tobin who ran the best race he probably ever had. The owners of Slew got greedy when they were enticed to run Slew when Cali jacked the purse for the race.

[rscarbro100]

@joefederico They shipped The Bid, Affirmed & many horses out west & they ran them west coast tracks in 1:58 & change. There is one thing for sure IMO & that is Slew could run this track much faster than he did in this race. How fast I do not know or if the would have beaten J.O. It just was not his day for sure. That happens to many race horses no matter how great they were.

[rscarbro100]

@rscarbro100 The reason he could not run this track in the time J.O. Tobin did was for several reasons IMO. 1. Slew was not as strong at 3 as he was at 4. Like the Bid & many others. 2. I do think he was a tired horse. 3. J.O. Tobin was not a better horse than Slew but only in this one. He probably should have not have been entered into this race. Turner must had knew something because he believe this as well.

[sl7293]

Absolutely true. I should have said Prove Out was the 2nd fastest horse at 2 miles. POs time was all the more remarkable when you consider that he spent the 1st part of the race locked in a speed duel with Riva Rndge which saw them do the 1st ½ mile in an unsustainable 47.2. Riva Ridge was fried by the fast start, finishing 33 lengths back. However PO showed great courage and stamina, finishing the 1st mile in a lightning fast 137.4 and winning the race in 3:20 -- only 0.8 secs from Kelsos best

[sl7293]

Haskins said the Woodward was a "perfect storm" for Secretariat that was made up ot 2 "elements". One of the elements was that Sec was unprepared. The 2nd element was that no horse could have defeated Prove Out on that day regardless.

[sl7293]

Yes, they don't run 1 5/8 miles on dirt anymore and haven't for decades. Unfortunately, unofficial and undocumentable claims that horse X, Y, or Z broke the 1 5/8 mile record either during the course of a race or in practice do not count as records.

[sl7293]

The other race of Prove Out's life was the 2 mile Jockey Club Gold Cup in which he crushed Riva Ridge by 33 lengths, finishing in 3:20. This was the 2nd fastest 2 mile in history next to the great Kelso. Moreover, Prove Out managed this after getting locked to a speed duel with Riva Ridge where these two covered the 1st half in 47.4 and the first mile in an unsustainable 1:37.4. Riva Ridge was completely fried after that, but Prove Out hung on to win.

[cf1970]

@sl7293 In the interest of accuracy, Prove Out's excellent time of 3:20 was actually the fourth fastest time over 2 miles on dirt. Kelso ran his superb 1960, 1962, and 1964 JCGC's in 3:19 2/5, 3:19 4/5, and 3:19 1/5 (WR), respectively. Even more amazingly, Kelso set the-then American Record of 2:23 4/5 on turf just 12 mere days after he set that world record on dirt. IMHO, he and Forego were separated by a nose as best geldings ever. Steve Haskin wrote a great book about Kelso in 2003. Peace.

[sl7293]

Swap's 1 5/8 mile record could last forever. I don't believe there have been any 1 5/8 mile races for at least a couple of decades. Even 1 1/2 mile dirt races have been going the way of the dinosaur. Anyone know of any races on dirt besides the Belmont that are 1 1/2 miles long?

[sl7293]

CORRECTION: That quote from Steve Haskins arcticle on the 1973 Woodward, entitiled "The Unbeatable Horse "should read "Secretariat did not lose the Woodward. Prove Out won the Woodward, and I cant think of any horse who would have beaten him that day."

[bbmtge]

Agree with you completely with reference to Swaps...truly was the complete package, especially at 4YO. I can only imagine what Sec would have been at 4YO...as I have said...I think the MC and MOW gave us a glimpse as to Sec's potential at 4YO...he truly was maturing fast.

[sl7293]

It is worth noting that Secretariat was not as fast in the MOW on grass, a faster surface, than he had been in the Belmont on dirt 6 months earlier. Had he run at age 4 he may well have improved on his performances as a 3 year old. However, it is also true that some horses do not perform as well at age 4 or 5 as they did at age 3. Buckpasser and Citation are two examples of the latter.

[rscarbro100]

@sl7293 Turcotte did not turn him loose in the MOW race like he did in the Belmont. He played cat & mouse with Tetham. Ron set him at a slower pace but he ran the last half of that race 1 full second faster than the Belmont. He was not after a record here either.

[rscarbro100]

@sl7293 Secretariat was not turned loose in the MOW like he was in the Belmont. Besides, that Belmont turf track is not all that fast like others. The record now stands at 2:24 1/5. Only 3 ticks faster than Big Red time after all these years.

[sl7293]

@rscarbro100 He might not have been "turned loose", but according to the DRF he was "ridden out" meaning that Turcotte was not whipping him, but had him under a vigorous hand ride.

[rscarbro100]

@sl7293 Your exactly right. Turcotte turned him loose the the latter part of that race like I stated. The record on that turf at Belmont is 2:24 1/5 as it stands now. No horse will run every different track in record time. Many reasons for it. Just like Slew in the Swaps.. Slew was a tired horse & no doubt something else was bad at work within him. Was not the same horse A great horse like Slew just don't lose by 16 lengths unless soemthing is wrong.

[rscarbro100]

@bbmtge Swaps I am afraid was not the complete package. He could not stand up in 'MUD' much less run in 'MUD'. Other than that he was a monster. Big Red could run on anything as you know. Even if Big Red wasn't much better at 4 than he was at 3 he still could murder any of them at 3.

[bbmtge]

Well out, as usual, rscarbo. Big Red was a replacement for Riva Ridge in the WW as RR could not run in the mud. An unfortunate choice made by Loren, as Sec should not have been entered. Still, "out of the barn", if you will, he produces the 3rd or 4th fastest mile and a half in history, to that point. Prove Out won 2 races in his career and looked incredible in the WW.

[sl7293]

This is pure hindsite. If Laurin had been told in advance that Secretariat could run 2:26.6 over 1 1/2 miles on a sloppy track, he would have entered him gladly. Not in his wildest dreams did he expect that any horse, could run a 2:25.8 on such a sloppy track and thereby beat Secretariat. As Steve Haskins said in his article on this race entitled "The Unbeatable Horse", Sec did not lose the Woodward, Prove Out won it and there is any horse that could have beaten him on this day.

[joefederico]

Everyone knows Slew was the much better horse although JO Tobin did run a great race, probably the best race in his career. Either way, the owners got greedy over the purse incentive and shipped an East Coast horse coming off a TC championship to the West to run a 1-1/4 race 10 days or so after the Belmont. I was only 12 years old and even I thought that was stupid. You could see him extending himself as best he could on the backstretch just to keep up. Thankfully, the owners learned from this.

[bbmtge]

Excellent points. Key to this race was a 1:09 and 1 fraction at 3/4 mile. Absolutely kills even the greats. Sec capable of 1:08 and change in a race like this.

[laveenaz1]

I stopped betting horses after this race. I had my face pressed against the fence and saw Shoe and JO come out of the gate as if shot from a cannon. I had never been this excited about a race having put my money on Slew. Thanks for posting.

[DanielSong39]

When a horse sprouts wings and flies, what can you do?

It was JO Tobin's day and it was not to be for Slew.

[DanielSong39]

Seattle Slew was flesh and bones after all, and unfortunately he had an off day. Not hard to see why, considering his grueling schedule.

Now as for winning the race - if a championship sprinter decides to sprint 10 miles, there isn't much you can do. No strategy works against a horse that shows early speed, makes a monster middle move, and closes all in the same race.

[BladerunnerNYC]

Starzinliberty- LMFAO! Seattle Slew only lost to champion horses and this was his worst race. J.O Tobin was a champion sprinter, but for all logical purposes- as Andy Beyer said, Slew wasn't even in this race and never should have run. Still, Secretariat could be beaten- and was beaten several times. Angle Light was a great horse, Onion and Prove Out weren't great horses and didn't win championships! Seattle Slew lost to sprint champions Dr. Patches- JO Tobin and Older Champ -Exceller

[71sunset]

Thanks for the post Awsi. Many very perceptive comments here. All I can add is that I watched this race on a TV monitor located underneath the upper grandstand, and in all my years attending Hollywood Park (I was quite the regular) I never felt the grandstand shake the way it did the last 3/16 of a mile in this race. The hometown fans were overjoyed with the outcome.

[bmoraga01]

I only disagree with one point. The grandstand did NOT shake the last 3/16 th, but began at the start of the race. I'll never forget the intro's during the post parade. When I heard the electricity in the crowd, I knew it was going to get real crazy, and it did. Shoe...we miss ya, R.I.P.

[mcmorrison]

the only race SEATTLE SLEW

finished outta da money OH MY

[ccrox13]

that's my horsies daddy :D

[starzinliberty]

check out TEXT. he is a flaxen mane and tail, nearly a palomino or maybe he is? we should find a good pic to see how he looked up close.

[starzinliberty]

JO Tobin was rested, ready and peaking in this race. He was an amazing horse, no fluke. Seattle Slew was in need of a rest after the Triple Crown win and his trainer, Billy Turner wanted to avoid this race to rest Slew longer. The owners insisted Slew run. After Slews loss, Turner was fired, Slew got very sick. Turner was correct about Slew's condition the owners were greedy. Slew almost never raced again because of his illness. This race was on Tobin's best day and it was the worstfor Slew.

[starzinliberty]

BTW - Regardless of all the arguing, Secretariat would have ponced them both on all of their best days! But we love these colts anyway, don't we. FYI - and check out the white horse, "White Sprite" that finished last to these horses. He is a half bro to VIGORS, the White Tornado, winner of the 1978 Santa Anita Handicap... really interesting, isn't it?

[DanielSong39]

It would've taken an incredible effort to beat JO Tobin on this day. A smashing victory despite being under hand ride for most of the stretch. Maybe Secretariat at the Belmont beats him, but even then, not by much.

Let's give him his due; JO Tobin was an excellent horse who came up with a magical performance on this day. He may not be up to the level of Slew or Secretariat, but just for one magical afternoon, he was.

[starzinliberty]

you are right. J.O. Tobin deserves the credit he earned. i remember watching this race and even though i always adored and cheered Slew, i was thrilled to see this amazing performance by horse and rider:)

[BE109]

Thats pretty much it right there. Turner had the horse taken away from later. Sometimes it is wise to listen to the guy you hired to train your horse. Would a fresh Slew beat JO? I think so,but that in no way diminishes what JO did on that day. He ran out of his eyeballs that day. Yes he was an amazing horse who was a multiple champion,that didn't happen by accident.

[starzinliberty]

agreed. turner knew slew much better and was the guy they hired, indeed. the only trainer to train an undefeated triple crown winner is worth a lot of respect and the slew crew (owners) just thought they were smarter. it reminds me of bad owners of any sports team that changes the coaches like clockwork. a trainer i knew very well always said "owners shouldn't be allowed to possess condition books". sometimes, horse owners drive trainers nuts sometimes.

[gypsycol]

J.O.Tobin was originally trained in England as a 2yo by the legendary Sir Noel Murless. The "Dogs were barking" for J.O.Tobin long before he ever ran his first race due to his unbelievable home work. Murless retired at the end of Tobin's 2yo campaign but offered to carry on for one more year to train this one horse, such was the high esteem he held J.O Tobin in.He knew the horse was "Quirky" but always rated him as potentially the best horse he had ever trained. Sir Noel knew a "good'un" alright

[arkle73]

@gypsycol

I remember him winning as a 2yo with Lester on board , think it was at Newmarket . He was touted as a superstar and I was gutted when he was sent to the States . There wasnt the international coverage we get nowadays and if I hadnt stumbled across this video I'd never have known about this performance . What a fine specimen he was . Does anyone know how he did as a stud ?

[mcmorrison]

only time SLEW outta da money

my friend bet $300 to show

and the rest is history...

[DanielSong39]

Look on the bright side; at least the crowds got to see a truly legendary performance, albeit from the wrong horse.

[manwithoutaroom]

Today's horses, like today's men, are pussies. Maybe the answer is to make the Belmont 1 1/8 miles so we can have a modern triple crown winner. They've dumbed down everything else to be accomodating.

[ChoKolateNUPE]

looks like Big Brow was the 2nd coming of Seattle Slew....

[AwsiDooger]

Well, Big Brown's effort today in the Belmont was one of the most inexplicable flops since Slew in this race. The timing is slightly different. Big Brown drifts into obscurity. I didn't want Big Brown to match Slew as undefeated Triplers so I'm very happy. But obviously Big Brown was compromised by the quarter crack. I still say when we do get a Triple Crown winner he'll be revealed at 2, like the '70s, not these late arriving upstarts like Smarty Jones and Big Brown.

[nova4ess]

JO Tobin was a monster, but the 1 1/4 record for 3 yr-olds is still 1:58.1 set by Quack in the 1972 Hol Gold Cup where he defeated older horses. No 3-year old has ever run faster at the distance. Quack was a monster that day. Quack was huge at 17 hands and, on his best day, was as good as any. Great stretch runner. He battled the great ones such as Cougar, Ancient Title, and Kennedy Road. My favorite horse of all time. If anyone has a replay of the '72 Gold Cup, I would be forever grateful.

[bbmtge]

FYI, Secretariat ran 1:57 4/5 at 1 1/4 miles pulling up, in the 1973 Marlboro Cup. Race was 1 1/8 miles...his time was a world record 1:45 2/5. No whip, a couple of neck scrubs; an easy run; clearly capable of more.

[nova4ess]

So when I go to the records why did I see Quack with the world record of 1:58.1? I understand there are those who believe Secretariat ran 1:57.4 in the Marlboro. IMHO, I don't. In the race chart, Secretariat passed the mile in 1:33. He then ran the last 1/8th in 12.2. The race video ends before we see how he rides out, but you think Secretariat ran another 12.2 1/8th while pulling up to finish in 1:57.4? He's the greatest 3 yr old I've seen, but nope. Who's watch was it? Urban legend.

[starzinliberty]

It was all was entirely possible that Secretariat got an Unofficial WR time for the 1¼ miles after the WR 1 1/8 because Big Red was known to excel after the wire and gallop out with his momentous power for at least another furlong, as in the Belmont Stakes. Once Secretariat got going, he got going! Urban legend or not, it is commonly understood that Secretariat could have galloped out the Malboro and extra furlong in WR time. However, we all know it isnt official unless before the wire.

[nova4ess]

In response to your disgusting email to me BBMTGE, I meant Quack had the 3-year old world record of 1:58.1. No 3 year old has ever run a faster 'official' mile and a quarter. Oh, and you've been reported.  Have a nice day.

[71sunset]

Nova, I don't have a replay of the race, except in my head. But what a sweet memory. That was the first of many many Hollywood Gold Cups I bet on over the years, and I bet on Quack. I'd backed him earlier that meet when he finished 2nd to Riva Ridge in the Hollywood Derby. You are correct that on his best days he was a formidable racehorse.

[winsome1235]

Most great horses have a bad day. Slew had a bad day. J. O. Tobin had a great day and was the best horse that day.

[nova4ess]

Yes, NO DOUBT the great Slew beats Tobin 9 times out of 10. But for all of us west coasters who were rooting for JO Tobin, it was great to see him finally putting it together. He was just too fast for an over-raced Slew on July 3, 1977. He had everything going for him.

Another factor in this race was Text. He kept Slew bottled up entering the backstretch when Slew was trying to get head and head with Tobin. Could have been a different story if Text hadn't pinned him at that point.

[DanielSong39]

Text had no effect on the race outcome but Slew was obviously below 100% on this day. Probably a game second if he's fit.

Absolutely no doubt that J.O. Tobin was the deserving winner.

[stivo1975]

Seattle Slew beats him 9 of 10 times.

[proveout]

People should realize JO Tobin ran I believe the fastest mile and a quarter by a 3 year old ever in this race. Something like 1:58 flat. And unlike slew he was well rested. I doubt any one beats him on this day including secretariat

[exceller1356]

I too was at hollywood park the day that j o tobin defeated the great Slew. the truth of the matter is that when j o broke well from the gate that day, the race was over. I think had slew been in his best form, neither he nor J o probably would have won. J.o. was an excellent race horse with severe limitations. He was very high strung, couldn't be rated, terrible from the gate, and a horse for the course, namely Hollywood park. Having said that, he still remains one of my favorites.

[DanielSong39]

J.O. Tobin may have had trouble rating over his career but once in a while you get days like this one; where he was running on two gears - fast and faster.

This was a performance for the ages and should be treated as such. Perhaps Secretariat wouldn't get beat 16 lengths by a train, but J.O. Tobin sure ran like one on this particular day.

[DanielSong39]

J.O. Tobin showed early speed, made a huge middle move, and closed - all in the same race. Enough said.

If Seattle Slew had done what J.O. Tobin did on that day, his performance may have been compared to Secretariat's.

[DanielSong39]

Looked at Seattle Slew's race record - absolutely no doubt that Seattle Slew would've had to run a a career best to beat J.O. Tobin's breathtaking effort on this day.

Maybe it serves to show how unpredictable horse racing can be? Even an inconsistent horse like J.O. Tobin can put up an effort that even an all-time great thoroughbred would be hard-pressed to match.

[AwsiDooger]

I don't need to look at Slew's record. I remember the races.

Slew was so much better than J.O. Tobin it's a farce. Let's not lose sight of that. I lived in California and attended those tracks for several years. It was hardly uncommon for a horse to thrive on those fast surfaces and put up a dominating effort, or several. That hardly meant he was a world beater. Heck, look at Lava Man recently.

If Slew had based in California I guarantee we would have seen some freakish races and times.

[rscarbro100]

@AwsiDooger Why did Noor, Citation, Affirmed, Spectacular Bid, Swaps & many more posted tremendous times on them California tracks & Slew could not? All were 4 year olds I believe & that might have something to do with it. Slew never posted great times as a 3 year old from 1 1/4 to 1/ 1/2 mile distances. He probably was tired as well for the poor performance.

[711ATOM]

@AwsiDooger Thank you for posting this, it was very good to see this race again. However, you seem to have had a running argument with DanielSong39; you wrote that "Slew was so much better than J.O. Tobin it's a farce". Tobin was an English Champion 2 and U.S. Sprint Champ at 3 (1978 Eclipse Award: Co-Champion Sprinter [w/Dr. Patches]). Bill Shoemaker was an admirer of the horse and was confident before the race. The CA trip was a mistake a J.O. Tobin ran an excellent race; Tobin was good.

[AwsiDooger]

@711ATOM

Tobin was very good. But the gap between a Triple Crown winner and a very good horse is enormous. That was my point.

It's unfortunate Tobin and Slew never raced each other when both gave a peak effort, in the Preakness or this race.

BTW, I don't like YouTube's method of elevating certain comments to the top, apparently based on subjective votes and if they were made by the uploader. Every comment should be weighted equally and listed in chronological order, like previously.

[AwsiDooger]

BTW, I notice you only comment on races Slew lost. Three losses and you've commented on them, and none of the wins.

Feel fortunate you can. Secretariat losses are hidden from view. No public YouTube viewing of the Wood or Woodward. When someone posted the loss to Onion, many regular Secretariat commenters howled.

I don't know why they feel compelled to shield the races. They have the videos. Post them and make it public. It wouldn't diminish Secretariat to see his occasional flops.

[DanielSong39]

I just think it's more interesting to see the occasional flop races; it shows the limitations of even the great ones and demonstrates the unpredictable nature of horse racing. Heck, that's why a lot of people bet on horse racing... no matter how great a horse is, it doesn't stop people from going to the window and betting on other horses!

[DanielSong39]

Seattle Slew is an all-time great and his race record compares favorably to Secretariat. And at least he doesn't come with a laundary list of excuses like Secretariat (Mugged at the gate! BS DQ! It was the abscess! It was the fever! He didn't train!).

[Bassman968]

No doubt J.O. Tobin ran a great race - that 3rd quarter in 23 3/5 before putting everyone away was impressive.

This race will forever serve as a textbook example of why trainers know the horse better than an owner ever will - 5 route races in 5 different states over 12 weeks time, and the owners override Billy Turners desire to rest a well traveled horse to instead fly him across the country.

[rscarbro100]

@DanielSong39 Slew probably was a little tired in this race but Slew as a 3 year old never did ran a fast 1 1/4 mile race. At 4 he was much better & a stronger horse.

[rscarbro100]

@DanielSong39 This is about par for Slew when he raced as a 3 year old. Could run a very fast pace to about a 3/4 mile & then always slowed. The Derby was one good example. Slew was much stronger at 4 but still could not manage a under 2 minute 1 1/4 mile race. He did run a 2 minute flat in the Woodward after then Shoe beat him with a whip silly down the strecth in that one.

[DanielSong39]

Give J.O. Tobin some credit here; he runs a career race and not sure if Seattle Slew wins even if he's at his best.

[AwsiDooger]

I agree. Even a rested and top form Seattle Slew would have been all out to defeat J.O. Tobin on that day.

[BE109]

J.O. Tobin was no daisy, he was 2Yr. Old Champion in England. 1:58 3/5 is incredible, but there is no doubt Seattle Slew was a tired horse. He was in trouble before the far turn, the jock was pushing on him hard and that is way out of character for Slew. He should have had some time off .

[fruglescot]

Taking nothing away from JO Tobin's effort but it is just incredible that anyone would consider running a horse, even of the quality of Seattle Slew, just 22 days after 'successfully' completing the most rigorous racing schedule for immature colts & fillies on the continent.

3 races in 5 weeks, over 3 untravelled distances, at 3 different race courses.

-cont'd below

[fruglescot]

-cont'd............

Not to mention in front of roaring throngs of distracting race fans. The athletic training art of winning the Triple is the trainer's ability to get a "great" horse to peak at the exact time so as to have what it takes to navigate the gruelling one and a half final gem.(The Belmont) No equine athlete can "get lucky" when accomplishing this feat.

[SWALE1984]

Pull this awful race and pretend this terrible day never happened. Pull this video. Do it for America. Do it for Seattle Slew. I hate everything about J.O. Tobin. I cannot stress that enough. I want you to realize this!

[ALYSHEBANDTHEBID]

Take it easy my friend, if you hate J.O. Tobin, watch the 1978 whitney, Alydar destroys him, i agree with you, S.Slew was the only member that became a good sire in the Bold Ruler line, maybe S.Slew's line will catch Native Dancer line one day....that crazy good looking A.P.Indy is for sure up to something before he is done.

[SWALE1984]

You are a good person. Thanks for the message. Yes, you are right, Alydar crushed Tobin at the Whitney. Once again, Tobin was off and on and very erractic over his entire career. I appreciate your comments. And i really like your screen name. Take care.

[cf1970]

I agree with ALYSHEBANDTHEBID. Take it easy, Swale. I was stunned when I read your comments. I think you owe an apology to the connections to J.O. Tobin for your hot-tempered remarks and especially to those directly affected by 9/11. To equate this mere horse racing loss to the events of that horrific day is shameful. Do the right thing and post your apology.

Repectfully, cf1970.

[cf1970]

Saying that "Jim Murray can go straight to hell along with that worthless, useless, overrated bum J.O. Tobin." was another horrible thing to say. You really gotta calm down, my friend.

Murray was talking out of his butt, and didn't give enough credence to the fact that J.O. Tobin ran the fastest 1 1/4 mile race by a 3 year old in history that day. You have to admit, he ran the race of his life that day. Slew was just unfortunate that he faced him unready that day. There's no shame in that. Cont.

[cf1970]

Yes, Murray was unfair in his harsh judgement of Slew, but we both know that Slew would have been right up there fighting with J.O. Tobin had he been better rested and race ready. It's the owners of Slew that blew it, not Slew. His greatness is not affected by this loss, not in my mind anyway.

Your own words are tarnishing Slew's legacy more than J.O Tobin or Murray ever could. Please stop it already.

Peace.

[SWALE1984]

You can't really blame the Taylors and the Hills for wanting the entire nation to see Slew, though. In retrospect, they should have given him a long rest, yes. But, they were so excited at what Slew did, they just wanted to share his greatness with everyone. You can't really blame them for that.

[cf1970]

You points are valid, it would have been terrific for the nation to see more of Slew, but it wasn't a blame, as you say, that I put on them, I was merely saying that they should have given him more rest, nothing more. They were/are fine owners that made a mistake. It happens. They loved him and wanted to show him off. Totally understandable. Slew is still in my personal top 3 of all time, just to let you know.

[ALYSHEBANDTHEBID]

Gentlemen, I have to say that Seattle Slew is a game horse 4ever, seeing him weakening as the race goes on will give anyone who saw the 3yrold Slew sore eyes, Seattle Slew tank was never empty no matter what you throw at him, but this day it was empty, ...Slew was just never the same ever since his trainer was let go n overruled, n the reason why he didn't set crazy speed record was because Jean was instructed to never use Slew more than necessary....thanks to Billy's wisdom,

[ALYSHEBANDTHEBID]

Gentlemen, I have to say that Seattle Slew is a game horse 4ever, seeing him weakening as the race goes on will give anyone who saw the 3yrold Slew sore eyes, Seattle Slew tank was never empty no matter what you throw at him, but this day it was empty, ...Slew was just never the same ever since his trainer was let go n overruled, n the reason why he didn't set crazy speed record was because Jean was instructed to never use Slew more than necessary....thanks to Billy's wisdom,

[DanielSong39]

Slew is a great horse and had an off-day, but J.O. Tobin put on a legendary performance that day. Absolutely mindboggling and spectacular race that gets better every time I watch it.

Why not give the winner credit for doing it with style?

[SWALE1984]

Running with just 120 measley pounds helped Tobin a great deal that day. Also, Tobin's connections did not have the guts to run him up against Slew at the Belmont, (after getting thrashed at the Preakness), where the track was very muddy and heavy. Instead, they retreated to California and lay and waited for Slew.

[cf1970]

It helped J.O., sure, but let's be realistic, 6 pounds of weight for a powerful 1000+ pound animal is nominal. It's impossible to say how it would have affected him. It would been a battle, I think, you gotta give J.O. some credit for his career win. Haha, I wouldn't have the guts to race him against Slew the monster either after getting pounded like he did. It would have been great to see more races between them, but you can't fault them for that.

[SWALE1984]

I apologize sincerely for the equation. You are right, I should have not spoken out of anger. Had the race been run on any other day, Slew would have won easily. Tobin was very inconsistent and highly over rated. However, I do apologize for everything else. Thanks.

[cf1970]

No worries, it happens to the best of us. It takes a big man to admit his mistake, and I respect for you for doing so. I have to disagree that Slew would have won easily. As much as I love Slew, J.O. finished in 1:58 3/5, an amazing accomplishment. I'd like to think that Slew would have prevailed, but had the race unfolded at the same pace and trip for J.O., Slew would have been life and death to beat him. I'd love to have seen them battle it out to the wire, in peak form.

Have a good weekend.

[SWALE1984]

You do the same! Thanks for your words and help. Also, thanks for the Affirmed vs. Alydar bulletins. I am sorry to say that I am having difficulty bringing them up and watching them. I will continue to try, though. Thanks again. And, once agin, I sincerely apologize.

[cf1970]

Thank you kindly. Hmm, that's odd why the AFF/ALY videos aren't working for you, I don't know what to say on that matter. Hopefully, it is just site traffic that causes that problem. It should work eventually(fingers crossed). Other than that, I'm flummoxed. As for the bulletins, you're very welcome.

Thank you for your humility. I consider this issue closed.

[AwsiDooger]

Wow, Swale, I'm shocked by the flurry of comments, although I see you apologized later.

I asked others about posting the flop races so I can't very well exclude Slew's biggest failure. I hope the 1973 Woodward is posted soon, Prove Out's big win over Secretariat.

I thought Jim Murray's comment was terrific, classic Jim Murray, perhaps the best sportswriter of all time. His style was absurd exaggeration and creative analogies.

[SWALE1984]

Sorry about that. I just became too emotional.

[AwsiDooger]

No problem. Your comments have been great on the videos I've posted.

[SWALE1984]

Pull this video. It is not right to show it. It is against every great thing that America has ever stood for, and believed in. Slew was the essence of America. He represented this country at its finest. His story is deeply engrained in the true meaning of the American way. To show this pathetic race is a huge slap in his face. Pull it and destroy it!

[SWALE1984]

One more thing. Slew was the most complete thoroughbred in the history of the industry. His sons and daughters were great runners and stallions and mares. Tobin never sired any Kentucky Derby or Belmont Stakes winners. That is for sure. I hate this race. I hate J.O. Tobin. I hate the nation of England for producing him! Please remove this race and burn it. Also, the L.A. Times article with that worthless headline should have been used as toilet paper!

[SWALE1984]

One more thing, Jim Murray can go striaght to hell, right along with that worthless useless over rated bum J.O. Tobin. Seattle Slew was an American hero. And to post this tragic horrible race for millions of people to see, is one of the most Anti-American acts I have seen in some time! Slew was a hero. He represented the best of America. Tobin was less than nothing!

[SWALE1984]

In this horrible race, Seattle Slew was carrying 126 pounds. Every other horse in this race was carrying a mere 120 pounds. J.O. Tobin had that so called fantastic time becasue of the low amount of weight he was carrying! I hate this race. With so many great Slew memories, why in the hell did you have to post this one? July 3 1977 was a dark day in American history. It was as bad of a day for our nation as September 11 was! I hate J.O. Tobin. He was a foreign piece of trash! I hate him.

[SWALE1984]

I hate this race. And I hate J.O. Tobin. I hate his owners and his jockey and his trainer. J.O. Tobin's entite career is marked by repeated inconsistency. He would win a race spectaculary on one day, and follow that one up with a 5th place showing. He was a bum. And I wish he would have kept his worthless foreign ass in England where he belonged!!! Slew is a hero to me! If you want to see who was better, jsut watch a replay of the Preakness. J.O. Tobin finished fifth, with Slew winning easily.

[BE109]

I believe that Seattle Slew was a tired horse, but I really think it would have been tough to beat J.O. Tobin on that day. He went 1:33 &change and 1:58 & change. That folks is burning the oil!!!!!

[DIGBYS]

Wow, I have an album with Hollywood Parks greatest races, wanted to see this race again. Thanks for posting. Shoemaker gave a classic ride, and dont know if Slew would ever have won on this day.  If you or anyone has more Harry Henson races, please post. I loved him. Also Shoemaker races..please post.

[proveout]

Slew was tired indeed but it shouldn't be lost that J.O. Tobin's time for the mile and quarter was the fastest ever by a 3 year old. I doubt if anyone beats him that day

[cf1970]

Sad to see Slew so far back. I agree completely, terrible judgement by his owners to run him so soon after his Triple Crown run.

Unfortunately, it's very often human error that skews the record of a horse of exceptional quality, certainly here in Slew's case, and of course in Secretariat's as well.

It would have been a real shame if Slew did die from the virus, many would have judged him unfairly because of this race.

Thanks a lot for posting this.