The blood of gay members' shame, guilt, pain, and suicides is on this man's hands and the other authorities. How pathetic! Not only are his arguments easily debunked and plain ignorant but Mormons actually buy this bigotry and spread it about. This makes me sick to my stomach!!
To see three good views relating to the Mormon support of Prop 8 and the Mormon campaign to deprive other Americans of their full human rights, do not miss the YouTube videos:
"Mormon Church Defends Prop 8 and Marriage(s)" by lezazacomedy
"'Home Invasion': No on Prop 8 ad directed toward Mormon Church" by jonahtrainer
-and-
"Mrs. Betty Bowers: Less is Mormon!" by MrsBettyBowers
I wish I could have been at this fireside with Elder Bednar. He is a man I respect. But I would want to ask him how we, as Latter-day Saints, can reach out to our gay brothers and sisters. Too many gay Mormons sit in silent pain. Why do so many LDS members still insist that the homosexual condition does not exist? The church still calls it an "inclination."
Read some books, for crying out loud. Learn that there is no archaeological evidence for the exodus, the conquest of Canaan or Judah being a wealthy kingdom in the 10th century B.C. Learn that the very book you use as the foundation of your belief - the Bible - is not supported by archaeological evidence. "The Bible Unearthed" is a very good start.
I love how this guy makes his "opinions" sound like facts. I think the view in the video is pretty much wrapped up in the first question young man asked when he asserts they "..are the ones who are trying to do the moral" thing. Translation = gays are immoral; same sex marriage is immoral.
The speaker couches all his answers in "could be" "might happen" "maybe" etc.
I think that is tragic. The sad thing is help was available to him from people in the Church who truly cared about him. They hate the sin, not the sinner. Counseling services to combat anxiety and depression are available... it's tragic he didn't reach out to people who would never have hesitated to help him. Mormons are not unfeeling, contemptuous bigots. We don't hate anyone, and we would have helped if we had known.
I would not have phrased it quite as frankly as you did, but you are right that using the phrase "They hate the sin, not the sinner" is nothinhg more than a "Transparent way of rationalizing hate." Way to go!
why dont you concentrate on why straight people get divorced huh ? thats where the problem lies, and tell me thats not a sin huh huh ? this proposition wont hurt your fat little ass AT ALL.. vote NO on 8
Nathow, is that not true? LDS looked upon blacks as less deserving than whites? If LDS discriminated then, what would prevent them from doing the same to gays? Nothing. All religions that don't take public funds are free to discriminate against whomever they please. That's the law in California. I could start a church and exclude all women. Perfectly legal. Don't like blacks, that's fine! Want to exclude gays? California lets you. What "might" happen is no reason to discriminate. NO ON 8
I know you won't believe it, but since I have been LDS since 1976, and have thereby been exposed to exactly who the Mormons really are (myself being one), and have heard Church leaders speak countless times, and know all the doctrines and teachings of the Church, I can tell you with absolute certainty.... among the leaders of the Church there is absolutely no prejudice, no hatred, no discrimination, no intolerance... they are only the most humble men teaching mankind how to become truly happy.
sickness is the dis-ease you "christains" have created by exploiting the very life that jesus lived. you are hypocrites. you divorce and remarry when it clearly states in the bible that it is an abomination, and to remarry is committing adultery. pride cometh before the fall and you "christians" and your hate for your fellow man, when jesus clearly says love thy neighbor as thy self, will fall hard come judgment day. HATE IS NOT A FAMILY VALUE! chistianity, you're doing it wrong!
The latest SurveyUSA poll shows 48 percent of likely California voters support Prop 8 with 45 percent opposed. That's down from a 5point lead in last week's Survey USA today.
nathow says:"It is basic Christian doctrine that homosexual activity is a sin...the Church is trying to defend traditional marriage"
Isn't it fun to hear from folks who think they took a patent on Christianity?
Buddy, churches have hosted 100's of same-sex marriages in our state performed by ministers who absolutely disagree with your beliefs. Your church has the right to marry or REFUSE to marry whoever they wish. Other churches should have the SAME right, without you and the gov't butting in.
How come you exhibit so much hatred for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints...? there has to be a reason... what happened to you that brought about this hatred and is it really the way you want to express yourself...? Is hating people who disagree with you the right course for your life...?
I'll leave it to readers to look at my posts and decide whether asking your church to not impose its doctrines upon mine by force of law constitutes "hatred," nathow.
Isn't that the same church that once said that blacks had dark skin due to a curse from God?
Geez, just let two consenting adults marry; it won't harm your church. Our country tolerates neo-Nazis, KKK members, Westboro, and Muslims, all of which have worse views than Mormons. Nobody is going to lose their freedom.
So, yes, I've looked at your point-of-view, and we just have deep differences that we will not resolve through video comments. I'm fine with that.
That's what democracy is all about. Yes, I'm opposed to Prop 8, and I'm all for same-gender marriage.
But... the first time the state tries to tell any church that they must officiate such a marriage, or can't teach their concept of sin... then I'll be joining hands with you to protest that decision.
Freedom of religion or speech would not and could not be infringed. I dont' know what''s wrong with Massachusetts, but in California, parents have the right to pull children from any and all lessons that conflict with their personal beliefs.
I used to be one of those who said "civil unions are good enough." But I've come to realize it's simply another application of "separate but (not quite) equal," and the Supreme Court has already ruled that doctrine invalid.
Viewers, do you LOVE the video nathow shows? You'd better, because YOU'RE paying for it.
The Mormon church owns the website (preservingmarriage) that put out this slick piece and many others, and paid for it with tax-exempt money. That means the rest of us have to pick up the slack on the income and property taxes that THEY are exempt from.
Most Californians support tax exemption for religious charity, but for bankrolling a POLITICAL campaign against their neighbors? Gimme a break. Vote NO!
hey Mike... the Church is simply trying to defend points of LDS doctrine. It is basic Christian doctrine that homosexual activity is a sin, and the Church is trying to defend traditional marriage as a divine institution and as it was designed and intended to be... they certainly have that right... You however, seem to exhibit quite a bit of hatred for the LDS Church.. I am wondering why...? Family members who are LDS try to teach you good morals to much...? What's your problem...?
Nathow, for someone so offended that others accuse him of hatred, you're not shy to dish out that accusation yourself, are you?
I don't hate anybody. I try to *tolerate* Mormons, but that doesn't mean I have to condone their *lifestyle* (are those the right script words, nathow?) More importantly, I don't have to like it when they use MY money for a political campaign to revoke MY marriage.
It's legal, but I don't mind telling any taxpayer who'll listen what these "moral" folks are doing.
nathow you said that the church sees homosexuality activity sinful fine, that is not a problem, no religion can mandate on different creeds, your creeds apply to you only, please read The Bill of rights, keep your church to yourself "tolarence" please practice it, marriage between gays will have the same restriction heteros'have why do you not try to save hetero marriages, more than 50% do fail your action create nothing by hatred
Yes, tolerance goes both ways. But when one side infringes on the rights of the other, that's where they lose my vote. If prop 8 fails, you lose nothing. You still get to disapprove with homosexuals, and you still get to talk about that.
Raising the fear that churches will no longer be able to call homosexuality a sin is baseless. The first amendment guarantees that. Pointing to what has happened in other countries is also baseless: go by our constitution, not theirs.
I appreciate that we have a difference in point-of-view, and I appreciate your tone in approaching that, so I did respectfully watch your entire video. Let's get to some of the points...
The court was asked to review the previous vote to see if it was constitutional, that is their job. It's part of the checks and balances built into our system. I happen agree with their decision for the reasons discussed in my video.
nathow says: "There is no such thing as a 'right to marry' "
You're technically right, nathow. Legally, marriage is a CONTRACT. But only certain people have the RIGHT to enter into that contract. Prop 8 removes that RIGHT from one specific group of citizens who presently have it.
Frankly, nathow, most folks don't need that explanation. They understand full well that you absolutely DO want to revoke RIGHTS--no matter what wording you use.
Don't remove rights from ANYONE. Vote NO on Prop 8.
There is no such thing as a "right to marry".. having the State recognize your marriage is a privilege, not a right. It is like driving, which requires a license and is a privilege. CA provides all the same rights to domestic partners as married couples, but that isn't good enough for you. You have to force on everyone a change in the legal definition of marriage which will give you no more "rights" than you had before. You should read the CA Constitution and learn what you are talking about.
This has been flagged as spam show
The blood of gay members' shame, guilt, pain, and suicides is on this man's hands and the other authorities. How pathetic! Not only are his arguments easily debunked and plain ignorant but Mormons actually buy this bigotry and spread it about. This makes me sick to my stomach!!
GiveCourage 1 month ago
Defending human rights against those who would hide behind the Bible and the Book of Mormon to promote hatred and bigotry is a very big issue indeed!
RCSVirginia 1 month ago in playlist More videos from nathow
This has been flagged as spam show
To see three good views relating to the Mormon support of Prop 8 and the Mormon campaign to deprive other Americans of their full human rights, do not miss the YouTube videos:
"Mormon Church Defends Prop 8 and Marriage(s)" by lezazacomedy
"'Home Invasion': No on Prop 8 ad directed toward Mormon Church" by jonahtrainer
-and-
"Mrs. Betty Bowers: Less is Mormon!" by MrsBettyBowers
RCSVirginia 1 month ago in playlist More videos from nathow
I wish I could have been at this fireside with Elder Bednar. He is a man I respect. But I would want to ask him how we, as Latter-day Saints, can reach out to our gay brothers and sisters. Too many gay Mormons sit in silent pain. Why do so many LDS members still insist that the homosexual condition does not exist? The church still calls it an "inclination."
JOEPITT9 2 years ago
Ehem! Separation of church and state! Cough* Cough* Cough*!
StabbedInTheMangina 2 years ago
nazi bigot!
MrRaycumfart 2 years ago
Read some books, for crying out loud. Learn that there is no archaeological evidence for the exodus, the conquest of Canaan or Judah being a wealthy kingdom in the 10th century B.C. Learn that the very book you use as the foundation of your belief - the Bible - is not supported by archaeological evidence. "The Bible Unearthed" is a very good start.
buddy51 2 years ago
You have a bit of cum dripping from your mouth.
You big fat self loathing closet case.
mikey6060 3 years ago
I love how this guy makes his "opinions" sound like facts. I think the view in the video is pretty much wrapped up in the first question young man asked when he asserts they "..are the ones who are trying to do the moral" thing. Translation = gays are immoral; same sex marriage is immoral.
The speaker couches all his answers in "could be" "might happen" "maybe" etc.
TAKE BACK CALIFORNIA FROM UTAH!!!
VOTE NO ON 8
calpoidog 3 years ago
My friend, Brian "DJ" Hyer Thompson, committed suicide because of the church's involvment in Prop 22. He was gay and mormon.
cryan71 3 years ago
I think that is tragic. The sad thing is help was available to him from people in the Church who truly cared about him. They hate the sin, not the sinner. Counseling services to combat anxiety and depression are available... it's tragic he didn't reach out to people who would never have hesitated to help him. Mormons are not unfeeling, contemptuous bigots. We don't hate anyone, and we would have helped if we had known.
nathow 3 years ago
Well, I'm sure if Prop 8 passes, more will follow him.
There was another case in CA where a gay mormon killed himself at a Mormon church.
This is the legacy of Prop 22.
cryan71 3 years ago
"They hate sin not the sinner."
Transparent way of rationalizing hate, YOU STUPID FAT FUCK. JUST DIE ALREADY.
mediorion777 3 years ago 5
@mediorion777
I would not have phrased it quite as frankly as you did, but you are right that using the phrase "They hate the sin, not the sinner" is nothinhg more than a "Transparent way of rationalizing hate." Way to go!
RCSVirginia 1 month ago in playlist More videos from nathow
@nathow Nonsense, your religion teaches these people to hate themselves.
ghostofxmaspast 1 year ago
why dont you concentrate on why straight people get divorced huh ? thats where the problem lies, and tell me thats not a sin huh huh ? this proposition wont hurt your fat little ass AT ALL.. vote NO on 8
tylerkirkss 3 years ago
MORMONS ALSO HATE BLACKS. THEY THINK THEIR DARK SKIN IS THE MARK OF CAIN. IT'S IN THE BOOK OF MORMON!
"Had I anything to do with the negro, I would confine them by strict law to their own species" - Joseph Smith
FacelessFacade 3 years ago
Nathow, is that not true? LDS looked upon blacks as less deserving than whites? If LDS discriminated then, what would prevent them from doing the same to gays? Nothing. All religions that don't take public funds are free to discriminate against whomever they please. That's the law in California. I could start a church and exclude all women. Perfectly legal. Don't like blacks, that's fine! Want to exclude gays? California lets you. What "might" happen is no reason to discriminate. NO ON 8
calpoidog 3 years ago
I know you won't believe it, but since I have been LDS since 1976, and have thereby been exposed to exactly who the Mormons really are (myself being one), and have heard Church leaders speak countless times, and know all the doctrines and teachings of the Church, I can tell you with absolute certainty.... among the leaders of the Church there is absolutely no prejudice, no hatred, no discrimination, no intolerance... they are only the most humble men teaching mankind how to become truly happy.
nathow 3 years ago
This has been flagged as spam show
sickness is the dis-ease you "christains" have created by exploiting the very life that jesus lived. you are hypocrites. you divorce and remarry when it clearly states in the bible that it is an abomination, and to remarry is committing adultery. pride cometh before the fall and you "christians" and your hate for your fellow man, when jesus clearly says love thy neighbor as thy self, will fall hard come judgment day. HATE IS NOT A FAMILY VALUE! chistianity, you're doing it wrong!
KadenceBauxeiter 3 years ago
The latest SurveyUSA poll shows 48 percent of likely California voters support Prop 8 with 45 percent opposed. That's down from a 5point lead in last week's Survey USA today.
Tuesday, October 21, 2008
rd1999 3 years ago
nathow says:"It is basic Christian doctrine that homosexual activity is a sin...the Church is trying to defend traditional marriage"
Isn't it fun to hear from folks who think they took a patent on Christianity?
Buddy, churches have hosted 100's of same-sex marriages in our state performed by ministers who absolutely disagree with your beliefs. Your church has the right to marry or REFUSE to marry whoever they wish. Other churches should have the SAME right, without you and the gov't butting in.
mike2jb 3 years ago
How come you exhibit so much hatred for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints...? there has to be a reason... what happened to you that brought about this hatred and is it really the way you want to express yourself...? Is hating people who disagree with you the right course for your life...?
nathow 3 years ago
I'll leave it to readers to look at my posts and decide whether asking your church to not impose its doctrines upon mine by force of law constitutes "hatred," nathow.
mike2jb 3 years ago 3
Well said.
discorecords 3 years ago
@nathow
Isn't that the same church that once said that blacks had dark skin due to a curse from God?
Geez, just let two consenting adults marry; it won't harm your church. Our country tolerates neo-Nazis, KKK members, Westboro, and Muslims, all of which have worse views than Mormons. Nobody is going to lose their freedom.
Mectrixctic 10 months ago
(final)
So, yes, I've looked at your point-of-view, and we just have deep differences that we will not resolve through video comments. I'm fine with that.
That's what democracy is all about. Yes, I'm opposed to Prop 8, and I'm all for same-gender marriage.
But... the first time the state tries to tell any church that they must officiate such a marriage, or can't teach their concept of sin... then I'll be joining hands with you to protest that decision.
(BTW, I also have family in LDS)
kenrg 3 years ago
(part 3)
Freedom of religion or speech would not and could not be infringed. I dont' know what''s wrong with Massachusetts, but in California, parents have the right to pull children from any and all lessons that conflict with their personal beliefs.
I used to be one of those who said "civil unions are good enough." But I've come to realize it's simply another application of "separate but (not quite) equal," and the Supreme Court has already ruled that doctrine invalid.
kenrg 3 years ago
Viewers, do you LOVE the video nathow shows? You'd better, because YOU'RE paying for it.
The Mormon church owns the website (preservingmarriage) that put out this slick piece and many others, and paid for it with tax-exempt money. That means the rest of us have to pick up the slack on the income and property taxes that THEY are exempt from.
Most Californians support tax exemption for religious charity, but for bankrolling a POLITICAL campaign against their neighbors? Gimme a break. Vote NO!
mike2jb 3 years ago
hey Mike... the Church is simply trying to defend points of LDS doctrine. It is basic Christian doctrine that homosexual activity is a sin, and the Church is trying to defend traditional marriage as a divine institution and as it was designed and intended to be... they certainly have that right... You however, seem to exhibit quite a bit of hatred for the LDS Church.. I am wondering why...? Family members who are LDS try to teach you good morals to much...? What's your problem...?
nathow 3 years ago
Nathow, for someone so offended that others accuse him of hatred, you're not shy to dish out that accusation yourself, are you?
I don't hate anybody. I try to *tolerate* Mormons, but that doesn't mean I have to condone their *lifestyle* (are those the right script words, nathow?) More importantly, I don't have to like it when they use MY money for a political campaign to revoke MY marriage.
It's legal, but I don't mind telling any taxpayer who'll listen what these "moral" folks are doing.
mike2jb 3 years ago
ZegatonZ 3 years ago
(part 2)
Yes, tolerance goes both ways. But when one side infringes on the rights of the other, that's where they lose my vote. If prop 8 fails, you lose nothing. You still get to disapprove with homosexuals, and you still get to talk about that.
Raising the fear that churches will no longer be able to call homosexuality a sin is baseless. The first amendment guarantees that. Pointing to what has happened in other countries is also baseless: go by our constitution, not theirs.
kenrg 3 years ago
I appreciate that we have a difference in point-of-view, and I appreciate your tone in approaching that, so I did respectfully watch your entire video. Let's get to some of the points...
The court was asked to review the previous vote to see if it was constitutional, that is their job. It's part of the checks and balances built into our system. I happen agree with their decision for the reasons discussed in my video.
(continued...)
kenrg 3 years ago
nathow says: "There is no such thing as a 'right to marry' "
You're technically right, nathow. Legally, marriage is a CONTRACT. But only certain people have the RIGHT to enter into that contract. Prop 8 removes that RIGHT from one specific group of citizens who presently have it.
Frankly, nathow, most folks don't need that explanation. They understand full well that you absolutely DO want to revoke RIGHTS--no matter what wording you use.
Don't remove rights from ANYONE. Vote NO on Prop 8.
mike2jb 3 years ago
"They (gays and lesbians) would lose nothing (if Prop. 8 passes)." That is a lie. They would lose the right to marry.
Kailoa36 3 years ago
There is no such thing as a "right to marry".. having the State recognize your marriage is a privilege, not a right. It is like driving, which requires a license and is a privilege. CA provides all the same rights to domestic partners as married couples, but that isn't good enough for you. You have to force on everyone a change in the legal definition of marriage which will give you no more "rights" than you had before. You should read the CA Constitution and learn what you are talking about.
nathow 3 years ago