Irshad Manji and Reza Aslan debating Muslim reform - 5

[jayudoka]

this guy reza aslan is an idiot.he is secretly sympathizing with muslim radicals and advocating for sharia in america.as a nigerian christian i would prefer the west to start deporting

this monsters.

[gobuddyboy]

Reza is talking about the real problem that many scholars bring up, but irshad is on her attacks against muslims.

[annata12]

We are fighting a war between reason and dogma and evidence based decision making versus faith. The problem is that the people who don't engage in the project of science also have access to it's fruits. Religion has failed and it's so apparent since we have societies based on science.

[aatayyab]

i'm just surprised at the stupidity or irrelevant "flow" of questions/answers/debate that this "host" and Irshad Manji have displayed. Micro Loans and Geo-Politics? Are you nuts? People are being bombarded, killed, blasted away in their homes, streets, markets and you are talking about "micro loans" wearing that "Un-Islamic" dress showing a bit of your cleavage? :))

[MissAPierce]

@aatayyab So unlike Reza, Irshad comes up with practical suggestions to encourage positive change, and all you can do is point out her chest? Congratulations! You just validated every accusation of bigotry and misogyny people make against mainstream Islam!

[shebzydon]

@MissAPierce- Its YouTube- he can say whatever the fuck he wants.

[MissAPierce]

@shebzydon Who was telling him to shut up? No one. He made an ass out of himself (and so are you), and as far as I'm concerned, he can do it all he wants.

[shebzydon]

@MissAPierce- eeee i've just seen your picture gtfo don't talk to me

[soloman81]

Reza opposes fighting back against those that start a war of civlization... and his reason is that it validates their position. How does that validate their position? A ludicrous statement. Their position is that Islam should take over the world. When they use jihad to achieve their goal, I would say we are right to fight back. The risk of validating their position and empowering them is non-existent. They are ALREADY an empowered and influencial group. We can't ignore them away.

[alialialis40]

Defend what you really believe with logic. If you can't find logic in what you really believe, then search for what you should really believe in. Islam challenge the mind, while others challenge the feeling. Fellings are manipulated but not logic. (((((God=1=Jesus=2=holy ghost=3, your feelings say they equal one but logic says three))))) .

[waliid1000]

if you look this woman you can see that she can not sandsteel i mean she is moving her body that means she knows that she is guilty and she her self feel that she is not muslim in her heart only she can say i. muslim cus muslim women covers their hair that is the frist thing, she did not do that so she can not talk about islam.

[sunnimanhaj]

Irshad declared herself a journalist and a historian in the debate...what credentials does she have as an alleged historian?? what a bloody nutter.

[GaiusIuliusTaberna]

Irshad Manji is very right about micro-finance, that would be endlessly more effective than our current program of national aid. It would also force those who claim to care about human rights and development in the world to put their money where their mouths are.

[MsBaystater]

Reza is something of an idiot!

Irshad is something of a genius!

[9561374]

Credit loans for Muslims? Does she knows what she is talking about? Clearly not. Credit is forbidden in Islam.

Marriage contract is a MUST in Islam or there is no marriage.

She is calling herself Muslim and opposing the Holly Koran all along? Isn't that person hypocrite?

Irshad Manji...i strongly advise you to educate yourself. Just by looking at you as you speak I can tell that you got some serious ethical and moral issues.

[PapGripDezi]

Irshad uses the name of Muslim women who do not support her views. Again, Irshad doesn't understand any other language besides English (i.e. she can't read Aarbic, Farsi, Pashto, Urdu, etc.) so i don't expect her to know anything about say the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan or prominent feminists like Shirin Ebadi (and since Irshad's not an academic, i expect even less from her) but she should at least know that Muslim women agree with very little of what Irshad says

[MsBaystater]

@PapGripDezi All I know is that she's talking about reform of the world's most intolerant religions. Is reform simply out of the question with you?

[MsBaystater]

@PapGripDezi How the heck do YOU know what Muslim women support? Are Muslim women all cut from the exact same cloth -- or are they perhaps actual human beings? And since when do you have to speak Arab or Farsi to understand the nuances of this debate? And did she imply there was NOTHING significant happenening vis a vis Muslim women and financial programs? Stop getting your hijab all in a wad.....

[PapGripDezi]

Irshad mistakenly refers to her self as an historian. Where did she do her PhD? Oh that's right, she didn't.

She's not an academic. She's a clown.

[MsBaystater]

@PapGripDezi Irshad is brilliant. Perhaps if she wore the hijab you would find her more believable.

[82shahin]

this cock sucker Reza aslan is a sell out like that BITCH Irshad Manji they can go to hell

[82shahin]

where the hell did this thick bunch of lunatics come from maybe they all need to take a good puff on the Buddah hahahahahah LOL

[kureem]

The essential clash between the islamic world and the west is about "history".

During the crusades there wasn't any winner between the 2 religions. Both christianity and Islam had to retaliate. This means there is inevitably 2 versions of history.

But the problem is as long as the west will make us believe that their version of history is the right one, and try to discredit us, things will never change. We have the right to believe what we want.

[countertreason]

@kureem I agree with everything you said, except that you believe yours is the right one (as well), you try to discredit us (as well) and we have the right to believe what we want (as well). The problem is that you don't even stop to think about your fault in the matter and that is why we stand at the ready around you folks. You shall never be trusted by anyone (Buddists, Hindus, Orthodox Christians, Atheists, Agnostics, etc.) until you start being more honest.

[kureem]

@countertreason Do you think Islam has a hidden agenda? Islam is trying to invade Europe or whatsover? We don't have a pope. We don't have any organized institution like the Vatican.

Its the west that is trying to have a hand on the petrol of the Arabs. And yet Bush has never apologize.

USA has supported Sadam to weaken Iran, then fight Sadam. USA has armed the taliban to fight Russia. Then kill the taliban. Allow me to continue?

So what is your definition of honesty?

[countertreason]

@kureem Honesty, in the sense I am requesting, is for you to stop pretending that you have no idea why the USA is doing this - what is wrong with the Muslim world. You make a statement like ``West wants Arab petrol`` and you think that ends the discussion on motives for middle east intervention. It doesn`t. In fact, it doesn`t even figure prominently. Arab oil is key to understanding it, but moreso the fact that the revenues and supply can`t go to helping our enemies. Simple.

[MsBaystater]

@kureem Indeed I DO think there are "Islamists" who have a hidden agenda. I think there are many in the Islamic world who look forward to the day when Islam and Shariah law take over the entire world. On the other hand, there are Muslim reformists who recognize all the ways the religion needs to change. Irshad Manji is one of them. Is Islam strong enough to undergo critical self-examination?

[MsBaystater]

@kureem The Islamic agenda is NOT a secret! Shariah Law! A new caliphate! And why should the west be apologetic to the oil producing states about buying their commodity? Many of those economies are already in the sewer -- if we weren't buying your oil the ME would be even more of a flaming heap of sand than it already is. As a westerner, I can't WAIT to end our addiction to oil. And this list of changing affiliations -- that's what is known as history. Allies, alas, are never forever!

[GaiusIuliusTaberna]

@MsBaystater That is not "the Islamic agenda" that would be the agenda of al Qaeda and those that sympathize with it. Calling that universally true of all Muslims does all the work for people like Osama in claiming this is a war between the west and Islam. It is a civil war within Islam in which fascists and theocrats are trying to bully secularists and reformers, by impressing and intimidating them with their willingness to make war on the west.

[MsBaystater]

@GaiusIuliusTaberna If there is a "civil war" within Islam, at times it seems that only one side is fighting -- the Taliban, Al Qaeda and the rest of the hard-liners who like making their points by shedding blood. The presence of that twisted set of ideals in this world is what brings the US onto the battlefield -- yet we get scorned for being in a battle that "moderate" Muslims seem loathe to fight.

[GaiusIuliusTaberna]

@MsBaystater what would you call the Kurdish fighters in Iraq, or the northern alliance in Afghanistan? These are people who were fighting the enemy long before we even took an interest in them. No american presence was in Iran, yet the streets were in a state of chaos last year, and I suspect the will to revolution is still simmering below the surface.

[mharper111]

@GaiusIuliusTaberna I stand corrected. The examples you cite are those of INDIGENOUS people rebelling against Islamo-fascist regimes, and I admire their efforts. What amazes me is that while many Muslims profess to be part of a group that has no national boundaries -- they NEVER vigorously proclaim disapproval of the Taliban or Al Qaeda! "Moderates" can amass a rally at the drop of an "offensive" cartoon -- but take to the streets against bombings and beheadings? Never! 

[lax80684]

@mharper111 "they NEVER vigorously proclaim disapproval of the Taliban or Al Qaeda! " really??" i've never met a muslim who didn't vigorously proclaim disapproval of the taliban and al qaeda

[Giagantus]

@mharper111 Bullshyt, the Taliban and Al Qaida have been condemnded by many muslism for instance, Ahmed Shad fought both AL waida and the Taliban in Afghanistan and the west allied with him. Google "muslims condemn terror". And there is even more.

[MsBaystater]

@kureem Yes, you have the right to believe what you want. Except when you start threatening and killing those of us who disagree.

[kureem]

Leaders, with the use of the media have successfully diverted the debate away from them. Even intelligent people like in this video got into the trap, and doing meaningless debate.

It is the responsibility of only leaders for these conflicts. How muslims think, or believe, how the west thinks or believes is never the cause of the conflict. And its meaningless debate

[kureem]

The popular argument against any religion is that religion can be used to indoctrinate people, and wage wars. But Democracy also has been used for this purpose!

The question is not about morality, freedom of speech, freedom of thought or rights or anything. The problem is that as long their will be leaders, there will have wars and conflicts. As long as there is a framework to give a few people power, there will have conflicts.

[MsBaystater]

@kureem Yeah -- except when Democracies go to war it's USUALLY to rid the world of murderous despots who threaten not just ourselves but our allies -- like Hitler, Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Ladin.

[kureem]

@MsBaystater Hmm, I'm not here to argue with you. You don't seem to be intelligent and don't understand what I mean. I'll try to explain it to you. But I doubt you will understand. Christians were doing crusades for the just cause. That's what they believed. Hitler killed Jews for the just cause. That's what he believed. USA is doing war for the just cause. That what it believe.

[kureem]

@MsBaystater Now if you read history a bit, you will realise that by the year 1200, occidental civilisation still believe that the world is flat, while the whole rest of the world knew that it was round. The indians, Arabs, Chinese, South Americans, Azhtech already knew that. But you people you maintained that it was flat. You were killing people, burning people alive, because you were absolutely sure of your claims. And this has never changed!!. You keep on making claims that are ridiculous.

[MsBaystater]

@kureem I don't quite get the point you're trying to make here. Perhpas you're saying (however inelegantly) that because past rulers have been blinded by their own sense of superiority -- that makes it ok for present day rulers to do the same? Not so. The Spanish Inquisition is a notoriously hideous chapter in human civilization. I hope you're not using IT to justify the brutality of modern day Islamofascists.

[MsBaystater]

@kureem And by the way -- it makes no difference today who figured out yesterday that the world was round or flat! Yeah, Muslims had their astronomical heydey during the middle ages. That's something to be proud of. Congratulations! What are your MODERN DAY victories?

[kureem]

I believe that religion or any ideology is not the cause of any conflicts. Never in history the people has asked for war. Its only leaders who prepare the people for war.

Something you don't think about, is that even DEMOCRACY has been used to wage a war. Bush waged an army of 500,000 people, making them believe or rather indoctrinated them to make an illegal war in Iraq.

[MsBaystater]

@kureem Any person with a reasonable understanding of Sadam Hussein would agree that had the sanctions been lifted, and they would have been, he would have totally started up his WMD program again. He'd be lashing out militarily at Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Iran again, Israel and of course the US. As long as he was in power, the world was going to be even more unstable than it is today. And let's not forget that most of the violence in Iraq - has been Muslims killing Muslims.

[kureem]

@MsBaystater So, since you don't seem to know anything. USA supported Khomenie to fight the Shah. When Iran of Khomenie (a tyrant) became powerfull, USA supported Saddam to fight Iran. And when Saddam became powerfull, and refused to be a dog of USA, USA make a war, 10 years embargo and a second war, that killed millions of innocent muslims. All that because the Shah refused to be a dog of the USA. Better not reply. I don't argue with assholes like you.

[MsBaystater]

@kureem Throughout history, political allegiances are constantly in flux. Look at the US and Great Britian -- once mortal enemies now best friends. Same thing with US and Japan, US and Germany, etc. The US "sided" with Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war because Saddam was the lesser of evils -- especially when compared to the fascists who had just taken over Iran. And do you really equate Iraq's invasion of Kuwait with refusing "to be a dog of USA"? That is seriously naive.

[supermankhan]

There will be a universal Caliphate in the Ummah. Of course that will be the hour when Islam will be Islam once again.

[Slickback83]

fag

[MsBaystater]

@supermankhan Good luck superman! The world is not as dumb as it was in the 7th century -- thanks in large part to the healthy exchange of ideas here on the internet. Even Muslims are figuring out that Islam is deeply flawed and needs a major overhaul. As for Shariah Law replacing current democracies? Good luck with that, too.

[MsBaystater]

@supermankhan Not in your lifetime! Nor in the lifetimes of your great, great, great, great,great,great,great,great,­great,great,great,great,great,­great,great,great,great,great,­great,great,great,great,great,­great,great,great,great,great,­great,great,great,great,great,­great,great,great,great,great,­great,great,great,great,great,­great,great,great,great,great,­great,great,great,great,great,­great,great,great,great,great,­great,great,great,great,great,­great,great grandchildren! In other words, NEVER!

[RayaAmmani]

She hit it right on the spot with this economic idea for the muslim women.Muslim men must live up to everything Islam and the prophet (saws) promised women not make their own rules.

[hmanigat]

Just a brief comment...conventional loans are not an option. The idea is a good one but loans would have to be interest-free (as interest-based loans are not permissible in Islam) or the pool of money could be an investment, and not a loan. And yes, we Muslims need to study the life of the Prophet (SAW/Peace be upon him)...I know very few men who strive to be like him. Everyone should read his (SAW) biography.

[dogagas]

though aslan's analysis is much more sound, you have to give irshad serious credit for her solution. It is a definite step in the right directin for muslim reformists, who often end up getting into theological argumetns with moderate muslims, to work on a project which no Muslim can shoot down, no matter how orthodox.

[quickfixyz]

when irshad uses the words "such as" of of , ah ah ,so many times. it shows she is just propped up by anti islam, she is just ignorant, now they are giving her scholarship to study in harvard , in few days she will be harvard expert in "Anti islam"

[MsBaystater]

@quickfixyz Your comments reveal that reform in Islam is eons away.

[quickfixyz]

reza is right , did you see the news how Donald rumsfeld sent notes with bible "quotes" to manipulate bush. How army evangelist christian soldiers are getting bibles from ministries and distributing bibles in aghanistan, the talibans are justified in killing the invading crusaders.

[MsBaystater]

@quickfixyz You've got a problem with Bible quotes? Why? Because it's not the Qu'ran? I thought the Qu'ran approved of the Bible -- that probably depends on which Surah you believe. They're so hard to keep straight!!!

[RasTmaan]

Irshad is an Israeli apologist, I remember watching her on TV commenting about how the Palestinian were terrorizing Israel and how Israeli have a right to attack and defend, This Lesbian like so many South east Asian muslims westernized muslims, made her career defending the west and Israel, Just read her articles on the net, she never mentions the western hegemony in the middle east and Muslim countries, all she cares is she gets money for speaking Pro Israel pro western.

[afroschlan]

So.. all lesbians are now pro Israel?

[phreakoutaston]

Apparently so.

[afroschlan]

Who would have thought? :)

[MsBaystater]

@RasTmaan So now anyone who is a Muslim reformist is an Israeli apologist! I'm telling you -- you represent what is horribly defective in Islam, why it will never reform, and why it is doomed to ultimate failure.

[sonofblessed]

Aslans comment at 2 min is true. Had Western Muslims separated themselves from minority extremists right after 9/11, this might have been averted. Its easy to criticize now, but most Westerners responded to what they heard coming from Western Muslim populations. Did non-Muslim or Muslim Americans have more responsibility in educating about Islam? Western Muslims lost a momentous opportunity by choosing btwn silence vs defense of terrorists. Americans asked for it too because they are naïve.

[faro0485]

Micro credit loans, 0% interests please...

[Cameddies]

Yes but if women owned their own, in may of these countries, they would get the asses beaten. Too much freedom can not and will not be condoned by bearded freaks and the God

[imratfalastin]

Reza rocks!!!

[damasgate]

yeah, this guy really knows what he's talking about Geo-Politically and Historically.

It just seems to me that Reza seems more Pragmatic than Irshad, even though she does offer a solution.

[MsBaystater]

@imratfalastin Irshad rocks more!!!!

[alkh3myst]

Astaghferuallah. Murtadd. She has an appointment with the Fire.

[Honestathiest]

Or a spa of milk and honey and few virgin lesbians!

[quickfixyz]

no men :)....what will women do ! just be content with plastic dildo.. it must be real hell...lol

[damasgate]

no no no...I believe they Vibrate. So they have the same affect as men. Except me, my libido has no bounds basically.

[damasgate]

YES!!!!!!

[MsBaystater]

@alkh3myst You loonies and your fascination with THE FIRE!!!!

[temptationofnehilism]

Irshad & Reza have both have touched important points in on the misunderstandings of Islam to the West, but also in the Muslim community.

Irshad is well versed in the key concepts and has done an incredible job in voicing the the silent majority that tend to be disregarded.

Tell me how many prgressive female voices are there in Islam and is actually heard?

[MsBaystater]

@temptationofnehilism Thank you for your cogent and well balanced thoughts. They are needed!

[thugly921]

i agree with acerbicmoor. she is a very smart woman, and she has some fascinating insights about reform islam; however, she is hardly a historian. ideologue, sure, but historian, no. Out of all five of these videos, i think she referenced actual historical examples for 20 seconds total.

[AAAhmed46]

I just don't like the company kept though. Why hand with Warraq, he doesn't want reform but totall destruction of a faith?

[thugly921]

true that, her points are too extreme

[acerbicmoor]

as a historian...hahahahahah..self-­proclaimed historian...ahahah..good one

[minhuna]

she is louder! There's something irritating about her!! Just because the media gives space does not mean you're impressive!

[Ngooo]

Thanks for uploading this. Very interesting.