The answer, of course is "yes!" Without God's grace offering salvation freely to ALL men, there is no salvation; without the faith to believe we do not accept it. Faith is a gift from God available to all men, but only chosen by those chosen (predestined) by God who draws them unto Himself. (Romans 8:29-30; John 6:37-40,44; Ephesians 2:8-10; 1John 4:19).
I'm no more Calvinist than Arminian,but can't help seeing how blatantly this satire "strawmans" Calvinist theology.
The truth is,both sides are right...& both sides are wrong. Jesus died for EVERYBODY. But only those who come 2 Him will accept his blood as atonement for their sins. Ppl cannot come 2 God except He first draw them to Him, but they must also CHOOSE Him through faith (which is given to them as a gift of God, otherwise it would b a WORK of themselves that they could boast in).
I liked what I heard a 5 point Calvinist pastor preach in a sermon when someone once asked him how to know if he was among the elect. The pastor's response was something like this: "That's easy. Get saved."
@droptozro ...that the majority and less than 10 times is it translated as Calvinists impose on every "elektos." there shouldn't even be a doctrine of election because it's a failure of translation. It stands for us being Gods more precious, not that God hand chose out unconditionally individuals to heaven/hell from eternity past. Study up some more, and learn context.
@infinity8ball Yes Jesus did die for all, anyone who teaches otherwise is not saved... Teaching a false gospel. The point of this passage was not even about salvation, it was about who is truly following(sheep). The problem with your view is you think goats cannot become sheep, and that's a lie. Do you know what "elect" means? All thru the Septuagint it often means "choice" not "chosen" as in picked out. Out of more than 100 times "elektos" is that.
Westboro proudly has the TULIP sign at the front of their altar. Want to try again?
And John 10? Do you like ripping things out of their context? Bet you do the same with Romans 9 also?
John 10 has to do with Jesus describing what a true Shepherd is versus a false, and that He's willing to die for His sheep while the hireling is not. It's also as a judgment against the Pharisees who thought they were sheep of God, but He's telling them they are not.
So what if they do? Lutherans agree with several of the 5 points as well. Both the Reformed and Lutherans condemned Anabaptism. Just because one likes TULIP does *not* mean they are covenantal.
And you're right Drop, the true shepherd dies for his sheep, the hireling will not. Who are the sheep of God? You've proven my point in your rebuttal.
"condemned.." Yeah literally, then killed them. Talk about wicked, and you think they're of God, at least those who took part or agreed with it?
"who are the sheep of God?" Those who listen and follow Him, this in no way proves your point. One can repent and become a sheep, giving up being a goat. The point Jesus was making to the Pharisees is that they weren't LISTENING... all the other Gospels show that those who continually sought out more were given more.
@droptozro , I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Are you acknowledging now then that the Reformed and Baptists are different? Or just arguing to argue? Rome condemned the Anabaptists as well, and many Anabaptist conclaves were militant and Apocalyptic.
As for your comment about the Pharisees, you only proved my point again. If Jesus died for his sheep, and goats exist, then Jesus didn't die for all. The Scripture also teaches that all who seek are elect, so no problem there either.
As someone who is a staunch Calvinist, I thought I would just say how much I disagree, hate and despise that statement by the Westboro Cult, and I agree that it is unbiblical. But I also wonder why you feel the need to so harshly misportray your Calvinist brothers and sisters by misrepresenting what we believe, and acting as though we completely ignore or remove those passages in the Bible you cited in the video. This is behavior not befitting of a Christian, and I must ask you not to do so...
@MartinLuther2nd again. I would never make a video linking you, or any of my Lutheran brothers and sisters, to heretical cult members and treating them as though they don't believe the Bible. Rather instead you should follow Paul's admonition in Ephesians 4:29 "Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear." BTW, I do generally enjoy your videos and find them hilarious, which is why I'm...
@MartinLuther2nd What does that mean, "Believe the Bible?" This is one aspect of the Bible. You're upset because this video cut you to the heart. If you want someone to speak to you like Paul, fine, "O full of all deceit and all fraud, enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease perverting the straight ways of the Lord!" And I also say, "O Foolish Calvinists, who has bewitched you, in whose ears was it was clearly spoken, 'Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!'"
@MartinLuther2nd: Hey my stepdad told me God hated me when I was little and it stuck. And because of all the bad things that have happened to me from childhood to my adulthood I'm starting to think maybe God really does hate me. After all I'm worthless enough for my stepfather to beat me and my family members probably could care less if I died...
Hilarious! I'm not set in stone on the nature of the atonement, but the bits at the end had me laughing out loud. I've been there. I guess my question would be, why should it make a difference to us? We are to preach the gospel to the whole world. Live and preach until you drop, let God deal with the hearts, and trust that in the end he will save whom he will save. Blessings all!
"I may be called Antinomian or Calvinist for preaching a limited atonement; but I had rather believe a limited atonement that is efficacious for all men for whom it was intended, than a universal atonement that is not efficacious for anybody, except the will of man be joined with it." --Charles Spurgeon
Thats an interesting statement, But ... if you read what you wrote it makes no sence at all. Nor does it address the issue of limited atonement. Nice try at using a big word (antinomian)..anti is one who holds that under the gospel dispensation of grace the moral law is of no use or obligation because faith alone is necessary to salvation . Also not very effacious if it only covered some men, wouldnt oyu agree.
Who did Jesus die for? According to Jesus it was the sins of the whole world.
Probably a better way to put it is that the producer knows that Jesus died to save him (since He died to save all of Adam's seed); but he does not know whether Christ's death will avail to deliver him or anyone else in particular from condemnation.
@JesusCannotFail Why is your name JesusCannotFail when you are saying Jesus can fail? Since Jesus' died to save everyone (a.k.a. Adam's seed), then why should anyone be unsure if it would avail to deliver him? Because Jesus died for everyone, and I'm someone, then I am confident that His death and resurrection will avail to deliver me; Jesus cannot fail. I might deny the master who bought me. But if we deny Him, He remains faithful, He cannot deny Himself.
@HeavenlyFloodofRegen I do affirm that Jesus cannot fail. He succeeds in saving everyone He intends to save. If you are His, this is wonderful news. Like most of His people, you probably have denied Him. I have.
As a Calvinist, the character in the video is certain about everything, except if Jesus died for him. As a Lutheran, the producer of the video is certain that Jesus died for him, but does not know whether Jesus will save him from eternal hellfire.
For those who do not understand how Calvin, Manton, and Spurgeon and the Westboro crew could be cited together, or think it unfailr, ( We love Calvin too, btw) What people like Fred Phelps do to Calvinism only serve to illustrate how dangerous theological error can become. One degree off course over time will put you thousands of miles off!! Calvin RIGHTLY said "The human heart is an idol factory." Fred Phelps worships Megatron, and uses Calvin instead of the Bible as a defense for his error.
Thank you for your reply. So I want to make sure I get this right. We cannot know if God is sad for all eternity because that is not revealed in His word. It is one of those questions that has to be answered when we see Him. Thanks again and have a great day.
@Taiwan1997 We cannot know the "Inner Counsel" of God, but only what He has explicitly revealed in His Word. Those who believe Christ's Gospel, continuing in Repentance & Faith, are Saved even if they are deprived of Holy Baptism through no fault of their own. But those who refuse Baptism, refuse the Gospel & are Hell bound.
Let's see now, a Puritan scholar (Thomas Manton), Charles Spurgeon,along with THE WESTBORO BAPTIST CHURCH, are representative of Calvinists? May as well identify Lutheran Nazi's of 1930s Germany as representative of Lutheran theology when discussing it.
I never cease to be amazed at Lutheran hatred of Calvin and Calvinists. In Calvinist circles Luther and Sola Fide is held in the highest respect and honor.
There is paradigm in scripture and where we cant make sence of it we roll with Jesus. Jesus sad He died for the sins of the world..we dont hate Calvinist.
To ARMINIANS -Romans 11:32 "for God has shut up all to unbelief, that he might have mercy on all".
To CALVINISTS -1 Timothy 4:10"for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of ALL MEN ESPECIALLY y of those believing."
DOUBTERS I Cor. 15:23-28"But every man in his own order:..For He must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet..last enemy...destroyed is DEATH... Son also Himself be subject unto Him..that God may be ALL IN ALL"
L - Limited Predestination Of Christ's Elect To Eternal Life Alone
I - Imputed Resistible Grace Through Christ's Visible Means
P - Perseverance of Christ's Elect To Eternal Life
Above is a description of The Original & True Tulip of God's Word & The Lutheran Symbols of Faith....a sure foundation against the two abysses of Calvinism & Arminianism.
@USAsoldier1955 Amen to a Biblical TULIP, Father Philip!...Doubtless, we also agree with Unconditional Election, sans the Calvinistic error of "double predestination." :-)
@USAsoldier1955 I love his book, "Christianity and the Constitution"! It refutes all that nonsense that our Founding Fathers were all deists (he even makes you feel better about Jefferson and Franklin). :-)
LoL! Good video.. Whats humorous to me, is that the only way a Lutheran can be sure that Christ died for them is if Christ died for absolutely everyone... Its been seemingly obvious to me that Lutheran theology has no clue what "faith" is.. It is the substance of things HOPED for, the evidence of things NOT SEEN. The typical needs something to "see" and without it, he has no "hope".
@ShownMercy - Not true. With Lutherans the object of their faith is Christ, and they can honestly look to Christ and Him crucified for assurance. Calvinists say that they can look at the cross, but in all honestly they can't, because Jesus may not have died for them. They must turn inward to see if they have enough faith or good works to messure up, but even then they may be fooling themselves, so in reallity Calvinists are the ones who must look at what is seen rather then what is not seen.
@TruthJesusAloneSaves.. Please, spare me your opinions. I'm not interested. I know not a Calvinist ONE that doesn't know that Christ died for them. Not only do they know that Christ died for them, they know they are eternally redeemed by the blood of Christ because He was 100% successful in redeeming His own. Lutherans can draw no security in the cross, for it did not save all it was intended for, for some will perish. So they look at their baptism (a work) for their assurance. Ludicrous.
@TruthJesusAloneSaves.. Cont... You see how that works? You claim Calvinist can't draw assurance because they don't know if Jesus died for them. And I say, Lutherans can't draw assurance because Christ didn't save all He died for... So, we are at a stalemate my friend.
@ShownMercy - No Stalemate. Lutherans embrace monergism, election, and predestination, and that all whom God elected will be saved in the end. To be honnest your point of view comes from philosophy and reason and not Scripture, which makes it clear that Jesus did in fact die for all (John 1:29, 1 Timothy 2:1-6, 4:9-10, 1 John 2:2). Again if indeed limited atonement is true, one would have to look inward to determine if they are among the few for whom Christ died, so as to see if they mesure up.
@TruthJesusAloneSaves How can someone intelligent enough to explode the entire Westminster concept of saving faith in one sentence not understand the accurate spelling of words like "honest" and "measure?" Just asking.
@ShownMercy (cont #2) Lutherans can look to the Cross because they know that Christ died for them. With baptism, it is not a work (even those in the reformed camp such as the OPC acknowledge this) Everywhere baptism is in the NT it direclty talks about acomplishing what it says it acomplishes, and it talks about it in the passive tense as something that is being done to you, and not something you do. You are entitled to disagree with Lutheranism, but at least know what it is you disagree with.
This only proves that you're really a Melancthonian and not a Lutheran. And it's rather telling when those who oppose the Apostolic teaching on the atonement must use straw man arguments to bolster their position. If you've REALLY got the correct position, then misrepresenting, and then tearing down said misrepresentation, should not be necessary. But alas, this is the case that we Calvinists always run into.
@stegokitty Really? In later years, Melanchthon wanted to kiss up to the Calvinists, unlike Dr. Luther, who stood firm until the end. We Lutherans adhere to Apostolic teaching--perhaps not the teaching of the false apostle John Calvin--but the Apostle John, who said "[Christ] is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" (I Jn. 2:2).
@AnHonestChristian - How nice, referring to Calvin is a "false apostle", when nothing of the sort has been aimed at Luther. Luther & Calvin were both God-fearing men, with some things right on both sides. And on the topic of "standing firm", are you going to admire the Mormon or stands firm to the end? And as far as 1 John 2:2, all verses have a context. I would ask you, does the word "world" and "all" in the Bible always mean every single individual? Your interpretation creates MANY problems.
@stegokitty Heard your arguments, used to believe them, don't anymore, and don't need the sarcasm. A Mormon's obstinacy is nothing compared to unwavering fidelity to God's Word--do you not know the difference? If you want context for "world," see 5:19 of the same epistle: "the WHOLE WORLD lies in the power of the evil one." Not talking about elect Jews or Gentiles, but ALL the sinful world, all of whom Jesus Christ died for. It's clear that YOUR interpretation has many problems.
@AnHonestChristian - When I use sarcasm you'll know it. It was a deserved rhetorical question. And will you say that when "all the world was taxed" that it included China, Africa, Autralia, and the Americas? Granted there are contexts where "world" and "all" DO mean every individual, but very few. Do you think that Jesus suffered and died for Pharaoh's sins? He was already in Hell. And what of those who never believe -- did Jesus died for their sins? Then why are they going to Hell?
@stegokitty Oh, well I'll consider myself warned! I never referred to Luke 2, which is obviously in a very different context. I'm talking soteriology here, lad. I think Jesus "suffered and died" for the sins of every member of the human race, and while the benefits of the Atonement are not applied to all, I challenge you to prove otherwise using the Scriptures. People are damned for their willful unbelief (Mt. 23:37, Acts 7:51, 13:46). Let's not blame God, shall we?
@AnHonestChristian - Straw man. No Reformed Christian believes that it's God's fault that a sinner goes to Hell. I couldn't agree more that people are damned for their WILLFUL unbelief. That's the point, son. No one WILL repent and believe UNLESS the inward work of the Holy Spirit BRINGS that dead spirit to life, repentance, and faith. ALL of these are shown in the Scriptures to be GIFTS from God. As to for whom Christ died, He said Himself "I lay down my life for the SHEEP" John 10:11,14,
@AnHonestChristian - 1 John 2:2 is that Jesus died for the sins of people all over the world. I've already shown that "world" and "all" rarely means "every single individual", and neither does it say so here, nor can you prove it from its context. Other Scriptures mitigate against such an interpretation. No Scripture stands alone. 5:2 is also not including all men. Afterall, is John and those to whom he's writing "under the control of the evil one"? Look at the next verse ... continued ...
@stegokitty 5:2? What book are you quoting? On the contrary, that's EXACTLY what you can prove from the context...not in the context of Luke 2, which has no relation to what I'm attempting to discuss with you!
@AnHonestChristian - You asked me "What book are you quoting?" I'm responding to THIS: "And you never answered me about "the world" in the context of I John 2:2, 5:19. :-D" You asked me to respond to 1 John 2:2 (or was that (capital i, or lower case L) a typo? If so, it means you might want to slow down before posting. And next time don't just say "5:2". Five Two WHAT? or rather WHAT 5:2? especially since it appears you're rushing with your responses, and possibly creating errors.
@stegokitty Somebody else is getting fed up with you too...they spammed your comment. You're the one asking me about this fabled "5:2." I ask what you're talking about, and you reply, "next time don't just say '5:2.' If you don't know what book I'm quoting, just ask, or problem-solve and look up 2:2 in John's Gospel & Epistles, but don't blame me for responding to your points. You are a Calvinist who doesn't know what I'm talking about; therefore, your opinion is unsolicited AND unqualified.
@AnHonestChristian - I have no idea what "spamming" a comment means, nor do I care if someone is "fed up" with me. If you want to end the conversation just say so. This has nothing to do with being a Calvinist and not knowing what you're talking about, it's about POOR COMMUNICATION and not knowing what you're talking about because I'm not a mind reader. Be more clear and less cryptic in your posts and we won't have this problem.
@stegokitty Unfortunately, I think we have reached an impasse. And it's not because we've had a stimulating theological discussion, but because you don't know theological terminology or the books of the Bible. I think I've been very clear in what I've posted. But of course, it makes sense to me coming from my mind. So, in all fairness, I would like to ask the other users who have commented on this video which one of us is clear and which one lacks understanding.
@AnHonestChristian - Sir, I read the Bible every day of my life. Just because you post badly and expect me to read your mind doesn't mean I don't know the books of the Bible. I'm also quite aware of theological terminology. Is this the only way you can get around your problems, is to use ad hominem? And what do you think is going to happen with your question, eh? Those who are in your corner are going to side with you. What a cop out. It only proves to me that you have no real case.
@stegokitty Ah, so I "use ad hominem." And what do you call YOUR comments, which call me "insane" and a "jackass." What do you call implying that I reject Sola Fide? Or that I'm a poor communicator? Could it be that those in my "corner" and even some in "yours" will see that you are the one with your proverbial pants down? What are you afraid of?
@AnHonestChristian - 1 John 5:2 " This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands". (1 John 5:2)
"Now there is in Jerusalem near the Sheep Gate a pool, which in Aramaic is called Bethesda[a] and which is surrounded by five covered colonnades" (John 5:2)
I've no idea what it is that you expect to communicate to me with either of these.
Notice how you didn't respond to the fact that Jesus died for the SHEEP.
@stegokitty My main proof text was First John 2:2 (cf. I John 5:19). I'm not sure where you got those two verses you cite in your above comment. Anyway...And perhaps you could kindly point me to in which comment you asked me about Jesus and the sheep. Regardless, Jesus came to die for the lost sheep of Israel (Matt. 15:24), though we know He didn't exclusively die for the Jews. He came to His own, but His own received Him not (John 1:11)!
@AnHonestChristian - I didn't ask you about Jesus and the sheep. You said Jesus died for everyone and challenged me to show otherwise. I did. Jesus laid down His life for the SHEEP, not for everyone. There is no verse that says "everyone" nor "ever person" nor anything of that nature. Jesus died for the SHEEP, not for the GOATS. Jesus said that those who disbelieved did so BECAUSE they are NOT His sheep, not that they are not His sheep BECAUSE they don't believe (even though it's applicable).
@stegokitty You said, and I quote, "Notice how you didn't respond to the fact that Jesus died for the SHEEP." But you insist you didn't say that...
When you use specific terms like that, you remind of the liberals who say, "There's no verse in the Bible that says, 'Gay people go to Hell.' " Well, of course the Scriptures teach that, but not those exact same words. My apologies for not being able to satisfy your unreasonable request (and I'm sure that offends you too).
@AnHonestChristian - "You said, and I quote, "Notice how you didn't respond to the fact that Jesus died for the SHEEP." But you insist you didn't say that..." Are you completely insane? I've never denied saying that at all! Why would I? It's what JESUS said. Jesus said He lays down His life for the SHEEP. The SHEEP consist not only of the flock of JEWS but also of the OTHER flock, the GENTILES, which shall ALL from ALL THE WORLD, be brought into the SAME FOLD.
@AnHonestChristian - And your response makes no sense whatsoever. I asked you if you were insane, because of this ridiculous claim "You said, and I quote, "Notice how you didn't respond to the fact that Jesus died for the SHEEP." But you insist you didn't say that...". I never denied anything. The previous question had nothing to do with whether or not you believe the Bible to be the only authority or not. So stick to the topic of each posting, and stop acting like a jackass.
@stegokitty I've covered this ground. Your diarrhea of the mouth about what I say/you say has junked up the comment section on this video for days now. Though I have explained this already, I'll be very clear: The Church is Jesus' elect flock which He died for. They will be saved and be preserved until the end. Also, all sinners are like sheep gone astray(Is 53:6) and Christ desires to save all, though not all will receive Him. Don't waste my time with another crack about your sheep comments.
@AnHonestChristian - Thank you for speaking more clearly. If you'd do that more often...
If Christ desires to save ALL, then Christ will save all. He isn't helpless against the will of the fallen creature. If He DESIRES them to be saved He will give them the same faith that He MUST give to the other sinners, reveal the Father to them, etc., But the Father never GAVE the reprobate to the Son, for as He said ALL whom the Father has GIVEN me WILL come to Me, & I will raise them up on the Last Day.
@stegokitty "If Christ desires to save ALL, then Christ will save all..." This is where the Calvinists' rationalism gets them in trouble. With the same logic, universalists argue that Christ will save all in order that He might be completely merciful. Either way, man is putting conditions on God's Word. This is wrong. I direct you again to the verses which clearly teach man is condemned because he chooses to reject God: Mat. 23:37, Acts 7:51, 13:46, etc.
@AnHonestChristian - And you keep falsely assuming that I'm objecting to the fact that men are condemned because they choose to reject God. It's what all people do naturally. It's our default "setting" to reject Christ. So how's that going to be fixed? You've already said it -- GOD MUST GIVE THEM FAITH & REPENTANCE. But God DOESN'T give everyone repentance and faith. Therefore God does not "desire" every person to be saved. God desires for all KINDS of men to be saved.
@stegokitty But if you agree that when we are saved, it's by God's will and when we are lost, it's man's will, then you agreeing with MY position. :-D
God desires that "all should reach repentance" (II Pet. 3:9), "all people to be saved" (I Tim. 2:4), as He is the "Savior of all people, especially those who believe" (I Tim. 4:10).
Here's a great video that articulates the Lutheran position: youtube.com/watch?v=-eU9C-gEtxk
@AnHonestChristian - Try and not put words in my mouth. God can will that which He does not approve. This is evident in the story of Joseph and his brothers, and most blatantly in the crucifixion. Again, you're interpreting that verse as if the rest of the Scriptures don't exist. And please tell me how Jesus IS the SAVIOUR of the non-elect? If He IS the Saviour of the non-elect, then He WILL save them. The word "especially" could (should) be translated "in particular, the elect".
@stegokitty "You meant evil against me, but God meant it for good" (Gen. 50:20) and "this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men" (Acts 2:23) refer to God's predestination/providence, not reprobation. Let me ask you this: Do you know Greek?
@AnHonestChristian - You're failing to understand the NECESSARY opposite side of the coin. If God foreordains ONLY certain people unto salvation, then by default, the rest are reprobate, and nothing can change that. And to answer your question, I don't need to know Greek. The Bibles we have are sufficient. I do have access to whatever resources you might want to suggest. And you ignored the verses that I gave which show that God predetermined sinners unto damnation.
@stegokitty Why is it necessary for your position to be true? If it's not in Scripture, there's NO REASON to believe it. "Don't go beyond what is written!" So, without knowing Greek, you have interpreted I Timothy 4:10 in such a way that is expedient to your BIAS and thereby criticize my position, which, so far, you haven't disproved...Seems rather intellectually dishonest to me...
@AnHonestChristian - Like I said, I don't need to KNOW Greek, in order to simply use the tools available. And just to let you know, I've spoken with others who DO know Greek, because I've used this argument before, and they were in agreement with my findings. I wasn't trying to be right in order to be right. This isn't about my bias or your bias, but about what the truth is. There are no verses which say Trinity, yet you and I believe it because it's the teaching of the WHOLE Scriptures.
@stegokitty And there are no verses which say Christ died for "every member of the human race", yet I believe the it's the teaching of the WHOLE Scriptures. :-D
@AnHonestChristian - I thought you believe what the Bible teaches because the Bible actually says so. This is not the case with universal atonement. Even the OT model (which is a shadow of the atonement perfection in Christ) does not include the sins of people outside the covenant community. The sacrifices were for the sins of the people ... God's people. Not those in pagan religions. You'll need to provide proof for such a teaching from the WHOLE Scriptures. And please stop with the smileys
@AnHonestChristian - You're confusing "Israel" with national, natural Jews. Christ is true Israel, and all who are IN Christ are Israel, having nothing to do with one's natural heritage, but with a Spiritual heritage. But what you said is the very REASON why "for the whole world" was said -- to combat the notion that Messiah came only for the Jews.
@stegokitty Yes, I agree the Church is the true, spiritual Israel. But that doesn't explain why John 1:11 clearly says He came to His own and they did not receive Him. Jesus Christ was born a Jew, he was a member of ethnic/national Israel, and His own people despised and rejected Him.
@AnHonestChristian ... continued ... God has given US understanding SO THAT "WE" may know Him who is true. Has God done this to everyone? Then why doesn't everyone know Him who is true? Oh, because there is something INHERENT in them which is better, more noble, less proud, less sinful than ... you?
@stegokitty Perhaps you're not acquainted with Lutheran doctrine (that would explain a lot). We believe in eternal predestination/election to grace and that God monergistically saves us for the sake of Jesus Christ alone. I've already cited Scripture that demonstrates those who are lost are responsible for their own condemnation before God.
@AnHonestChristian - I've already agreed that those who are lost are responsible for their own condemnation before God. There is nothing incompatible with that statement and the Reformed Faith, which might be an indicator that you are not familiar with Calvinism (which would explain a lot).
Indeed I don't know a lot about Lutheranism. However, I've read Luther's "The Bondage of the Will" which is in perfect keeping with Reformed (spelled Biblical) teaching.
@stegokitty You asked why not all come to God; I replied that it's because they are condemned by their rejection. I can't find a comment of yours that makes that statement. Calvinists believe that God predestines some to damnation (making it God's will, not man's, that they are lost). That's entirely incompatible with the Lutheran (spelled Biblical) teaching. I have no problem with The Bondage of the Will, although it's the Book of Concord that serves as the summary of what Lutherans believe.
1) "Because they are condemned by their own rejection" is not an answer to the question "Why do not all come to God?", but rather is an answer to the question "Why are those who don't come to God condemned?" which I didn't ask.
2) We don't believe God ACTIVELY CAUSES men to disbelieve. That is the DEFAULT position of all men, as we are born in disbelief and rebellion (original sin). All God need do is to not give the (undeserved) grace to one sinner that He gives another.
@stegokitty 1. Yep, that's my answer, whether your fallen sense of reason understands it or not.
2. Yes, I know the difference between classical Calvinism and Hyper-Calvinism. Either way, the error that God "passes over"/predestines reprobates to be lost persists. Friend, in all sincerity, you seem tired. Please rest and then carefully re-read these comments. I have not said much of what you allege.
@AnHonestChristian - Excuse me? Did you just accuse me of being in an estate of damnation?
And there is no error in God passing over the reprobate, non-elect sinner and giving grace to another (elect) sinner. That's the POINT of gracious election and predestination. And this is your only warning. Do not insult me again with condescension.
@stegokitty No I certainly did not. For the love of God, I keep telling you that I agree with you that we cannot of ourselves come to Christ! God saves us by His work through Christ ALONE--hence, monergism. Do you know what monergism is? Do YOU know what you as a Calvinist believe?
@AnHonestChristian - You certainly did not what? I don't mean to be obtuse here, but being rather seasoned in YT talk, I know that people often answer things which are not necessarily in the block directly above their response. So try and include just a hint as to what you're referring next time, K? I'm well aware of monergism, and the fact that monergism makes no sense whatsoever with universal atonement.That's the problem. Jesus didn't die for the sins of the reprobate. Already proven.
@stegokitty You know what the problem is? You ARE obtuse. I've made clear citations from Scripture, I've responded to your challenges (which you apparently did not intend for me to answer) and I have the majority of Church history backing me up.
@AnHonestChristian - And you are clearly losing your temper. You've also NOT responded to my "challenges" at all. Look at your ridiculous response to my questions [see my post beginning with 1) "Because they are condemned by their own rejection" is not an answer to the question "Why do not all come to God?"].
Try answering the question: What is the reason why some people come to Christ and others do not? That is the question. I'm asking you to explain the why behind the different responses
@stegokitty No, I'm about as even keel as I always am. When I respond to comments, I am intentional about what I say because I'm serious about what I believe. I can play your game, and I suspect you'll still find fault with me.
Your question: "What is the reason why some people come to Christ and others do not?"
The Bible's answer: Those who come to Christ have been effectually called by God and given the gift of faith; those who do not have freely rejected Him. Basically what I said before.
@AnHonestChristian - So then you'll agree that God gives to one the gift of faith & not to another. Therefore God has foreordained that only those who are given the gift of faith shall indeed come to Christ. Christ came specifically for the sheep, whom the Father gave Him from the foundation of the world -- those whose names are written in the Book of Life. Christ says He lays down His life for the sheep. Christ says people do not believe because they are not His sheep.
@stegokitty I whole-heartedly subscribe to election to grace! Once again, this doesn't necessitate that God has foreordained sinners to be lost. Here is what Luther says on the matter: "Follow the reasoning of [Romans]. Fix your attention on Christ and the Gospel, so that you may recognize your sin and his grace. When you have come under the shadow of the cross and suffering, they will teach you, in chapters 9-11, about providence and what a comfort it is." (Abbreviated, his Preface to Romans)
@AnHonestChristian - If God has foreordained the elect unto salvation, then He has, by NOT giving them the grace of repentance and faith, foreordained them to damnation. I am not talking about equal ultimacy here. No thinking Calvinist does! God doesn't have to work unbelief in the reprobate, all He need do is to not give him the grace which He gives to another sinner -- an elect sinner.
@stegokitty You've claimed you believe men are condemned by their own will, and then say above: "He has...foreordained them to damnation." Really? Where do the Scriptures declare this? And by the way, the Westminster Confession doesn't count. ;-)
@AnHonestChristian - No problem. Romans 9:18 says God hardens whom He wills to harden; & "What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—PREPARED FOR DESTRUCTION?" (v.22); "They stumble because they disobey the message—WHICH IS ALSO WHAT THEY WERE DESTINED FOR." (1Pet2:8); Again, John 10:26 JESUS says "you do not believe BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT MY SHEEP." "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated" BEFORE THEY WERE BORN.
@stegokitty The hardening of a sinner's heart is God's affirmation of and judgment on their sinful lifestyle. It clearly says in Exodus that Pharaoh SINNED by hardening his OWN heart (human responsibility rears its head again). In the midst of your proof-texting, notice that ONLY the elect in Christ are "prepared BEFOREHAND for glory" (Romans 9:23). God rightly hates sinners under His Law but also loves us, as His Gospel teaches us (John 3:16)!
@AnHonestChristian - 1) God said BEFOREHAND that HE would harden Pharaoh's heart SO THAT God would get glory. 2) Stop acting as if I don't believe in human responsibility. It's dishonest and stupid. 3) If God prepares BEFOREHAND the elect for glory, then by default He is preparing BEFOREHAND the reprobate for damnation. There is no such thing as a reprobate becoming elect. God chooses to be merciful to one sinner, and justly punish another equally guilty sinner.
@stegokitty 1) Where does the Scripture say that? And where does it say Pharaoh was "foreordained" to spend eternity in Hell? 2) You don't consistently carry out human responsibility in your doctrine because of your belief in double predestination. Here's the note on Rom. 9:22 in The Lutheran Study Bible (CPH, 2008), whose editors are qualified to comment on the original Greek: "prepared. Implies readiness for (as in 'ripe for') destruction, not irreversibly foreordained destruction."
@AnHonestChristian - "But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Exod 9:16
But actually the Bible is silent on where Pharaoh went for eternity, though I don't think it's difficult to guess.
But if God predestined Moses for salvation, yet did not predestine Pharaoh for salvation, then He at least passively predestined Pharaoh to Hell.
How is one "ripe" for damnation except that God doesn't prevent it?
@stegokitty "But actually the Bible is silent on where Pharaoh went for eternity." Exactly what I've been saying. "though I don't think it's difficult to guess." Okay, but Scripture's silent on that matter. "He at least passively predestined Pharaoh to Hell." Once again, this is not according to Scripture, but according to your own logical/rationalization. Being "'ripe' for damnation" is part of the human responsibility you keep saying you affirm...
@AnHonestChristian - Once again, my position is from reasoning from the Scriptures, which you must do as well to maintain orthodoxy. You and I both know how easily heretics come up with doctrines based upon a wooden interpretation of obscure or oddball verses, all the while ignoring the entire scope of Scripture. If God did not elect Pharaoh to the means of grace, and if God did not elect to give the gift of repentance and faith in him, the God, at least by default, predestined him to Hell.
@stegokitty My position is also derived from Scriptural reasoning, which is why I continue to tell you that double predestination is false and unproven, because it is not found in God's Word. This whole business of God predestining to Hell "by default" is alien to the revealed written truth we have from God, and I will not believe it.
@AnHonestChristian - If a king, out of two death-row criminals, chooses to grant pardon to one, then by default the other is going to the gallows. Period. And as much as that is irrefutably true, God's predestination is still a bit different, in that He created the reprobate with no intention of saving them, neither does He owe it to them. Their purpose is to sin, and to be justly punished for those sins, as they do it in accordance to the desires of their hearts, and all this for God's glory.
I truly admire your Lutheran Christian patience with the Calvinists & their contrary brethren in error, the Arminians....two sides of the same sad coin....many of them are on "autopilot" and will never awaken to actually share a reasonable conversation with you!
But at least they have your ministry of the Word to them, that perhaps some may "Wake, Awake, For Night Is Flying" (Hymn 609, The Lutheran Hymnal). Matt. 25: 1-13, KJV! :)
@USAsoldier1955 Well, thank you, Father Philip, I appreciate that. :-)
It really would be easier for me to actually sit down in person with the people who want to debate...that's just one of the disadvantages of all this computer business...it also helps them to be rude while hiding behind a username.
@AnHonestChristian " I have no problem with The Bondage of the Will" Really? Then you should then have no problem in acknowledging that NO ONE WILL come to Christ UNLESS God WORKS FAITH in that person and GRANTS repentance to him, SO THAT he WILL repent of his sins, and embrace Jesus Christ, as He is offered in the Gospel. But no, it appears that you REJECT what Luther taught on the BONDAGE of the will, & instead claim that fallen man has the ability to turn himself from sin unto Christ.
@stegokitty Okay, (a) I've already stated that I'm a monergist and I believe what you've said above and (b) I have never said that "fallen man has the ability to turn himself from sin unto Christ." I'm not a synergist/semi-Pelagian/Arminian, and genuinely have no idea where you got those notions. That's damnable heresy.
@AnHonestChristian - I agree it's heresy, but to say that Jesus died for the sins of people who were not chosen by God is absurd. To woodenly interpret "whole world" and "all" (as I've already displayed) is not wise, as it causes serious problems, such as having people in the Americas being taxed by Rome, which didn't happen. Neither did Jesus die for the sins of every single person who has ever lived. The Scriptures do not TEACH such, though some verses, contextually divorced, sound like it.
@stegokitty Now you're agreeing with me and asking me if I'm disagreeing with you. :-O
Yeah, I got that you don't believe the whole "all means all"/"world means world" bit. And yet you would say that when it says in Romans 5 that sin and death reign in ALL you would say that means all. The same passage teaches that Christ, by His work on the cross, accomplished Objective Justification for the whole world. The benefits of His Passion--the forgiveness of sins--are applied through Word & Sacrament.
@AnHonestChristian - When did I ASK you anything in the previous response? There are no questions in the previous post. I've said I don't believe something because it's what the Bible teaches, not based on some dreadful means of interpretation which ignores the rest of Scripture. I've nothing to prove to myself, and I don't care if my system gets shot down. The only thing I'm interested in is truth. No passage says nor teaches that Jesus accomplished objective justification for every person.
@stegokitty Forgive me my poor choice of words. You basically DEMANDED out of the blue that I explain "the fact Jesus died for the SHEEP."
"I don't care if my system gets shot down. The only thing I'm interested in is truth." Don't you think "your system" and "truth" are the same?
"No passage says nor teach that Jesus accomplished objective justification for every person." Read Romans 5. And then see that the Church has historically interpreted the Atonement as being for all people.
@AnHonestChristian - Have you never been wrong about something? Especially have you never been wrong about things concerning God? I have. The theological system in which I was raised is nowhere near that which I've come to embrace. And so, I am open to the possibility of being wrong, though I'm rather convinced that I'm not.
Really? The Church historically interprets Rom 5 as universal atonement?
@stegokitty Yes, I've been very wrong. I was raised a Southern Baptist and I'm now a Confessional Lutheran. Jesus opened my mind to believe the Scriptures (Luke 24:45). Yes, the Church historically interprets Romans 5 "as universal atonement," but NOT universalism. I think you're implying that I'm rejecting Sola Scriptura (not Sola Fide), which I'm not, as the historic interpretation gives credence to my argument.
@AnHonestChristian - I mean that if you use a "wooden" interpretation of particular Scriptures, all the while ignoring (however unintentionally) other verses (since Scripture doesn't contradict itself, & must be taken as a whole) you then must reject the doctrine of Sola Fide, since there is no verse that uses those words, & in fact verses (used by Rome) that say otherwise (James). But you & I know how angry (& rightly so!) Luther became at the "donkeys" who insisted on "alone" IN the verse.
@stegokitty Your logic is not at all consistent. "Justified by faith apart from the works of the law" (Romans 3:25) is synonymous with the formulation, justification by faith alone. It's not that Scripture doesn't explicitly say that Christ died for the elect (we both agree He did). That doesn't change the fact that Jesus still died for the sins of the whole world, elect and non-elect.
@AnHonestChristian - Now THAT'S funny! My logic is perfectly consistent. There is NO VERSE which says that Jesus died for the non-elect. PERIOD. You're woodenly interpreting "all" and "world" where it's convenient for your false position on the Atonement. Again, is the love of money the root of ALL evil? And when the WORLD was taxed, did it include the Americas? And when we read that the WHOLE WORLD is under sway of the Devil, does that include Christians?
"And when we read that the WHOLE WORLD is under the sway of the Devil, does that include Christians?"
Why, yes it does. BEFORE conversion, all sinners are condemned for their unbelief (John 3:18). And it was for these sinners God gave His only-begotten Son (John 3:16). :-D
Contextually, since John is speaking to those whom he describes as children of God, THEY are NOT under the sway of the Devil. That's the point! John says "The whole world IS under the sway of the Devil" YET, this is not UNIVERSALLY true, at all times, and in all ways, because neither HE nor those who are in Christ fit that category AFTER conversion. Are you interested in TRUTH or just protecting what you've chosen to embrace?
@stegokitty Try not to act like you're right when you're actually an ignorant Calvinist when responding, K? :-D
I see your point about the passages from I John, but that doesn't disprove that, as I have said, ALL are sinners, ALL are condemned, and Christ died for ALL.
@AnHonestChristian - Christ died for the sheep. "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa 53:11) How could Christ be "satisfied" if He suffered and died for so many who were not included in the number of those finally justified? To what end did Christ die for the reprobate?
@stegokitty You beat a dead (and decaying) horse, my friend. I've already explained that I believe in election to grace and that Christ died for the elect. To answer the question "How could Christ be 'satisfied'" also demands an answer to the question, "How can God hate sin and yet allow it?" We simply trust that all things work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to His purpose! Christ died for all. That is the "end" to which Christ died for sinners.
@AnHonestChristian - Repeating "Christ died for all" doesn't make it so. Christ said He died for the SHEEP, and then said that certain people were NOT His sheep. Even the OT shadow of atonement, the sacrificial system, was not for EVERYONE, but for the covenant people ONLY. And I'm not beating a dead horse at all. You keep saying you believe something and then deny it in your next breath. Using God's hatred of sin, yet permitting it doesn't address the issue of Christ dying for reprobates.
@stegokitty And yet you've said I'm the one with a "wooden" interpretation of Scripture! I haven't denied anything "in my next breath." I say let the Scriptural paradoxes stand. Your theology is neat, tidy, and "logical," but Lutheran theology is messy because it's not concerned with being rational, but being true to Scripture.
@AnHonestChristian - Then you cannot stick with "salvation by grace alone, through faith alone" for there is no verse that says as much. This doctrine (as true as it is!) is compiled by the full teaching of Scripture, just as the Trinity is, and just as the Doctrine of Predestination and Election, which is INEXTRICABLY connected to the Doctrine of the Atonement, and that being for the elect ONLY, and not for every individual who has ever lived on the planet, including the reprobate.
@AnHonestChristian - MUST you use the stupid smileys all the time? It's actually a sign of arrogance. I think I'm dealing with an 18-year old here.
I'm sorry, but you'll have to provide Scriptural proof for your claim that the full teaching of Scripture is that of universal atonement. But I know that you cannot, and so you're simply hiding behind the ol' "don't confuse me with the facts, I'll just stick with what's comfortable."
@stegokitty Must you be such a Debby Downer when I'm enjoying myself? :-D
Consider the Good Sower (Matt. 13; that's The Gospel of Matthew, chapter 13), who indiscriminately sows the seed of the Word of God in the hearts of not only those who are rooted in it, but also those who fall away (another problem for your house of cards).
Don't confuse me with the crap. I'll just stick with what's Scriptural. :-D :-D :-D
@stegokitty 1. The parable proves that apostasy is possible, in contradistinction to your errant belief that it is impossible for a Christian to fall away. 2. I know about the "Reformed Faith," but I'm more interested in what Scripture says. Haha I'm immature? I appreciate that you take doctrinal issues seriously, but I think you take yourself TOO seriously. Jesus was the most offensive Person in history and He had no qualms with rebuking those in error. Now go have a hissy fit about that.
@AnHonestChristian - It's possible for a professing Christian to fall away. It's not possible for the elect to fall away. Jesus said that all who are learn from and are drawn by the Father come to Him, and that He raises them up on the Last Day. All of them. None can be taken away from Him.
This has nothing to do with having a "hissy fit" over what Jesus says, nor with your disagreeing with me, but in HOW you're going about it, with the smiley faces, and the constant straw man erection.
@stegokitty I believe that the elect will ultimately be preserved until the end, but that doesn't rule the possibility of a brief falling away. Jesus warns that the unfruitful branches will be thrown away and burned (John 15:6). Paul echoes this warning, as many Jews who rejected their Messiah were broken off, while Gentile believers were grafted in (Romans 11:20).
@AnHonestChristian - A brief falling away & "apostacy" are not the same thing. Why bring it up at all, unless you're simply trying to confuse an already confusing conversation? Let's try to be kind to one another, seeing as we're brothers in Christ, and not just throw in red herrings.
As far as the smileys, you know as well as I do, the reason for your use of them.
It has nothing to do with light-hearted camaraderie.
If we were talking about rock bands or TV shows it'd be different.
@stegokitty It was related to my point about Matthew 13, as you can see above. I find it interesting that you judge my motives, and that you NOW call me your brother in Christ (to which I have no objection), when earlier you have implied that I am an idolater when you said, "you're simply hiding behind the ol' 'don't confuse me with the facts, I'll just stick with what's comfortable.' It's called idolatry."
@AnHonestChristian - In the words of Calvin, we're all a bunch of idol factories. We're told by the Apostle John to keep away from idols. He wasn't talking to the world, but to the Church, because we all still have a passion for erecting one idol after another. Either of us can just as easily make an idol of our particular theological position, if indeed we place it above Scripture, and are not willing to be corrected by It.
@stegokitty Ah, well that makes sense, brother idolater...I trust you don't find that offensive? ;-)
As to my "obvious motives," I wish we could sit down face-to-face and discuss these things. We wouldn't waste as much time, and I think you'd be more willing to put the talking points aside...That said, you don't happen to live down here in the South, do you?
@AnHonestChristian - No offense taken. I know I'm a mess. And that's another good sign from the Lord, is the gracious conviction, and awareness of our own sinfulness. The reprobate doesn't really know this, as he thinks either that he's a good person, and can earn his way to heaven; or that he's a bad person, but can earn his way to heaven, or that Jesus gives him the ability to earn his way into heaven, etc.
pt2
Do we "get saved," or are we saved?
The answer, of course is "yes!" Without God's grace offering salvation freely to ALL men, there is no salvation; without the faith to believe we do not accept it. Faith is a gift from God available to all men, but only chosen by those chosen (predestined) by God who draws them unto Himself. (Romans 8:29-30; John 6:37-40,44; Ephesians 2:8-10; 1John 4:19).
WilliamTyndale1 1 week ago
pt1
I'm no more Calvinist than Arminian,but can't help seeing how blatantly this satire "strawmans" Calvinist theology.
The truth is,both sides are right...& both sides are wrong. Jesus died for EVERYBODY. But only those who come 2 Him will accept his blood as atonement for their sins. Ppl cannot come 2 God except He first draw them to Him, but they must also CHOOSE Him through faith (which is given to them as a gift of God, otherwise it would b a WORK of themselves that they could boast in).
WilliamTyndale1 1 week ago
@TheLutheranSatire Can you also make satirical videos about John Wesley and Jacobus Arminius, please?
1517CalvinMartin 2 weeks ago
"So now that you've read my awesome gospel, will you go out with me?" Wet myself laughing.
neilatlp 2 weeks ago
"I think you're confusing God with Megatron" lol
MysticalSelah 2 weeks ago
I liked what I heard a 5 point Calvinist pastor preach in a sermon when someone once asked him how to know if he was among the elect. The pastor's response was something like this: "That's easy. Get saved."
1517CalvinMartin 2 weeks ago
@droptozro ...that the majority and less than 10 times is it translated as Calvinists impose on every "elektos." there shouldn't even be a doctrine of election because it's a failure of translation. It stands for us being Gods more precious, not that God hand chose out unconditionally individuals to heaven/hell from eternity past. Study up some more, and learn context.
droptozro 3 weeks ago
@infinity8ball Yes Jesus did die for all, anyone who teaches otherwise is not saved... Teaching a false gospel. The point of this passage was not even about salvation, it was about who is truly following(sheep). The problem with your view is you think goats cannot become sheep, and that's a lie. Do you know what "elect" means? All thru the Septuagint it often means "choice" not "chosen" as in picked out. Out of more than 100 times "elektos" is that.
droptozro 3 weeks ago
Westboro is Baptist. That's completely different from the Reformed. It doesn't help either that your opening statement ignores John 10.
infinity8ball 1 month ago
@infinity8ball
Westboro proudly has the TULIP sign at the front of their altar. Want to try again?
And John 10? Do you like ripping things out of their context? Bet you do the same with Romans 9 also?
John 10 has to do with Jesus describing what a true Shepherd is versus a false, and that He's willing to die for His sheep while the hireling is not. It's also as a judgment against the Pharisees who thought they were sheep of God, but He's telling them they are not.
droptozro 1 month ago
@droptozro
So what if they do? Lutherans agree with several of the 5 points as well. Both the Reformed and Lutherans condemned Anabaptism. Just because one likes TULIP does *not* mean they are covenantal.
And you're right Drop, the true shepherd dies for his sheep, the hireling will not. Who are the sheep of God? You've proven my point in your rebuttal.
infinity8ball 4 weeks ago
@infinity8ball
"condemned.." Yeah literally, then killed them. Talk about wicked, and you think they're of God, at least those who took part or agreed with it?
"who are the sheep of God?" Those who listen and follow Him, this in no way proves your point. One can repent and become a sheep, giving up being a goat. The point Jesus was making to the Pharisees is that they weren't LISTENING... all the other Gospels show that those who continually sought out more were given more.
droptozro 4 weeks ago
@droptozro , I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Are you acknowledging now then that the Reformed and Baptists are different? Or just arguing to argue? Rome condemned the Anabaptists as well, and many Anabaptist conclaves were militant and Apocalyptic.
As for your comment about the Pharisees, you only proved my point again. If Jesus died for his sheep, and goats exist, then Jesus didn't die for all. The Scripture also teaches that all who seek are elect, so no problem there either.
infinity8ball 3 weeks ago
so awesome
JohnTheHutDweller 1 month ago
Funny stuff! Adding the Westboro quote was over the top. Westboro is essentially Calivinist gone wild.
gardentiger69 1 month ago
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Just remember, Martin Luther taught limited atonement a generation before Calvin did.
MooMeg85 1 month ago
no one ever responds honestly to all my brilliant arguments on the web-net :'(
daeraedor 3 months ago
As someone who is a staunch Calvinist, I thought I would just say how much I disagree, hate and despise that statement by the Westboro Cult, and I agree that it is unbiblical. But I also wonder why you feel the need to so harshly misportray your Calvinist brothers and sisters by misrepresenting what we believe, and acting as though we completely ignore or remove those passages in the Bible you cited in the video. This is behavior not befitting of a Christian, and I must ask you not to do so...
MartinLuther2nd 3 months ago
@MartinLuther2nd again. I would never make a video linking you, or any of my Lutheran brothers and sisters, to heretical cult members and treating them as though they don't believe the Bible. Rather instead you should follow Paul's admonition in Ephesians 4:29 "Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear." BTW, I do generally enjoy your videos and find them hilarious, which is why I'm...
MartinLuther2nd 3 months ago 2
@MartinLuther2nd so disappointed in this one.
MartinLuther2nd 3 months ago
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HeavenlyFloodofRegen 3 months ago
@MartinLuther2nd What does that mean, "Believe the Bible?" This is one aspect of the Bible. You're upset because this video cut you to the heart. If you want someone to speak to you like Paul, fine, "O full of all deceit and all fraud, enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease perverting the straight ways of the Lord!" And I also say, "O Foolish Calvinists, who has bewitched you, in whose ears was it was clearly spoken, 'Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!'"
HeavenlyFloodofRegen 3 months ago
@MartinLuther2nd: Hey my stepdad told me God hated me when I was little and it stuck. And because of all the bad things that have happened to me from childhood to my adulthood I'm starting to think maybe God really does hate me. After all I'm worthless enough for my stepfather to beat me and my family members probably could care less if I died...
Eternalsummersong 1 month ago
Hilarious! I'm not set in stone on the nature of the atonement, but the bits at the end had me laughing out loud. I've been there. I guess my question would be, why should it make a difference to us? We are to preach the gospel to the whole world. Live and preach until you drop, let God deal with the hearts, and trust that in the end he will save whom he will save. Blessings all!
nluzwick1 3 months ago
"I may be called Antinomian or Calvinist for preaching a limited atonement; but I had rather believe a limited atonement that is efficacious for all men for whom it was intended, than a universal atonement that is not efficacious for anybody, except the will of man be joined with it." --Charles Spurgeon
JesusCannotFail 4 months ago 4
Thats an interesting statement, But ... if you read what you wrote it makes no sence at all. Nor does it address the issue of limited atonement. Nice try at using a big word (antinomian)..anti is one who holds that under the gospel dispensation of grace the moral law is of no use or obligation because faith alone is necessary to salvation . Also not very effacious if it only covered some men, wouldnt oyu agree.
Who did Jesus die for? According to Jesus it was the sins of the whole world.
iamgivingbackhope 5 days ago
Probably a better way to put it is that the producer knows that Jesus died to save him (since He died to save all of Adam's seed); but he does not know whether Christ's death will avail to deliver him or anyone else in particular from condemnation.
JesusCannotFail 4 months ago
@JesusCannotFail Why is your name JesusCannotFail when you are saying Jesus can fail? Since Jesus' died to save everyone (a.k.a. Adam's seed), then why should anyone be unsure if it would avail to deliver him? Because Jesus died for everyone, and I'm someone, then I am confident that His death and resurrection will avail to deliver me; Jesus cannot fail. I might deny the master who bought me. But if we deny Him, He remains faithful, He cannot deny Himself.
HeavenlyFloodofRegen 3 months ago
@HeavenlyFloodofRegen I do affirm that Jesus cannot fail. He succeeds in saving everyone He intends to save. If you are His, this is wonderful news. Like most of His people, you probably have denied Him. I have.
JesusCannotFail 2 months ago
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As a Calvinist, the character in the video is certain about everything, except if Jesus died for him. As a Lutheran, the producer of the video is certain that Jesus died for him, but does not know whether Jesus will save him from eternal hellfire.
JesusCannotFail 4 months ago
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JesusCannotFail 4 months ago
For those who do not understand how Calvin, Manton, and Spurgeon and the Westboro crew could be cited together, or think it unfailr, ( We love Calvin too, btw) What people like Fred Phelps do to Calvinism only serve to illustrate how dangerous theological error can become. One degree off course over time will put you thousands of miles off!! Calvin RIGHTLY said "The human heart is an idol factory." Fred Phelps worships Megatron, and uses Calvin instead of the Bible as a defense for his error.
morrispriddy 4 months ago
I have another question. Is it by our decision that determines our eternity?
Taiwan1997 5 months ago
Thank you for your reply. So I want to make sure I get this right. We cannot know if God is sad for all eternity because that is not revealed in His word. It is one of those questions that has to be answered when we see Him. Thanks again and have a great day.
Taiwan1997 5 months ago
Is God sad for all of eternity that those He loves are in hell?
Taiwan1997 5 months ago
@Taiwan1997 We cannot know the "Inner Counsel" of God, but only what He has explicitly revealed in His Word. Those who believe Christ's Gospel, continuing in Repentance & Faith, are Saved even if they are deprived of Holy Baptism through no fault of their own. But those who refuse Baptism, refuse the Gospel & are Hell bound.
USAsoldier1955 5 months ago
I really enjoyed my recent youth group lock-in.
sweetJesus1234 5 months ago 2
Let's see now, a Puritan scholar (Thomas Manton), Charles Spurgeon,along with THE WESTBORO BAPTIST CHURCH, are representative of Calvinists? May as well identify Lutheran Nazi's of 1930s Germany as representative of Lutheran theology when discussing it.
I never cease to be amazed at Lutheran hatred of Calvin and Calvinists. In Calvinist circles Luther and Sola Fide is held in the highest respect and honor.
analogiest 5 months ago 5
@analogiest How does satire equal hatred? I can't imagine that the Nazis really had many theological thoughts...
AnHonestChristian 5 months ago
There is paradigm in scripture and where we cant make sence of it we roll with Jesus. Jesus sad He died for the sins of the world..we dont hate Calvinist.
iamgivingbackhope 5 days ago
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analogiest 5 months ago
Though I don't really agree with this video, it was very funny and a strong way to make a point.
HDell1994 5 months ago
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To ARMINIANS -Romans 11:32 "for God has shut up all to unbelief, that he might have mercy on all".
To CALVINISTS -1 Timothy 4:10"for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of ALL MEN ESPECIALLY y of those believing."
DOUBTERS I Cor. 15:23-28"But every man in his own order:..For He must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet..last enemy...destroyed is DEATH... Son also Himself be subject unto Him..that God may be ALL IN ALL"
motibi 5 months ago
NOTE:
T - Total Depravity of All Mankind
U - Universal Atonement of All Mankind
L - Limited Predestination Of Christ's Elect To Eternal Life Alone
I - Imputed Resistible Grace Through Christ's Visible Means
P - Perseverance of Christ's Elect To Eternal Life
Above is a description of The Original & True Tulip of God's Word & The Lutheran Symbols of Faith....a sure foundation against the two abysses of Calvinism & Arminianism.
+ Romans 5: 1-2, KJV! :)
USAsoldier1955 6 months ago
@USAsoldier1955 Amen to a Biblical TULIP, Father Philip!...Doubtless, we also agree with Unconditional Election, sans the Calvinistic error of "double predestination." :-)
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago 2
@AnHonestChristian Amen, Brother Timothy, "Limited Unconditional Predestination of Christ's Elect To Eternal Life Alone"! Good edit!
BTW - I am corresponding with The Rev. Dr. John Eidsmoe, an outstanding Lutheran Christian Nationalist.
USAsoldier1955 6 months ago
@USAsoldier1955 I love his book, "Christianity and the Constitution"! It refutes all that nonsense that our Founding Fathers were all deists (he even makes you feel better about Jefferson and Franklin). :-)
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
WARNING:
Most Calvinists cannot stand up to a decent debate with Lutherans, because they are on autopilot....and remain invincibly ignorant of Lutheranism.
These poor Calvinist "separated brethren", & their Arminian cousins, remain in our prayers! :)
USAsoldier1955 6 months ago
What do you believe that the death of Christ actually accomplished (if anything)?
stegokitty 6 months ago
LoL! Good video.. Whats humorous to me, is that the only way a Lutheran can be sure that Christ died for them is if Christ died for absolutely everyone... Its been seemingly obvious to me that Lutheran theology has no clue what "faith" is.. It is the substance of things HOPED for, the evidence of things NOT SEEN. The typical needs something to "see" and without it, he has no "hope".
God bless His Saints.
ShownMercy 7 months ago
@ShownMercy - Not true. With Lutherans the object of their faith is Christ, and they can honestly look to Christ and Him crucified for assurance. Calvinists say that they can look at the cross, but in all honestly they can't, because Jesus may not have died for them. They must turn inward to see if they have enough faith or good works to messure up, but even then they may be fooling themselves, so in reallity Calvinists are the ones who must look at what is seen rather then what is not seen.
TruthJesusAloneSaves 7 months ago
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@TruthJesusAloneSaves.. Please, spare me your opinions. I'm not interested. I know not a Calvinist ONE that doesn't know that Christ died for them. Not only do they know that Christ died for them, they know they are eternally redeemed by the blood of Christ because He was 100% successful in redeeming His own. Lutherans can draw no security in the cross, for it did not save all it was intended for, for some will perish. So they look at their baptism (a work) for their assurance. Ludicrous.
ShownMercy 7 months ago
@TruthJesusAloneSaves.. Cont... You see how that works? You claim Calvinist can't draw assurance because they don't know if Jesus died for them. And I say, Lutherans can't draw assurance because Christ didn't save all He died for... So, we are at a stalemate my friend.
God bless
ShownMercy 7 months ago
@ShownMercy - No Stalemate. Lutherans embrace monergism, election, and predestination, and that all whom God elected will be saved in the end. To be honnest your point of view comes from philosophy and reason and not Scripture, which makes it clear that Jesus did in fact die for all (John 1:29, 1 Timothy 2:1-6, 4:9-10, 1 John 2:2). Again if indeed limited atonement is true, one would have to look inward to determine if they are among the few for whom Christ died, so as to see if they mesure up.
TruthJesusAloneSaves 7 months ago
@TruthJesusAloneSaves How can someone intelligent enough to explode the entire Westminster concept of saving faith in one sentence not understand the accurate spelling of words like "honest" and "measure?" Just asking.
jsgehrke 7 months ago
@ShownMercy (cont #2) Lutherans can look to the Cross because they know that Christ died for them. With baptism, it is not a work (even those in the reformed camp such as the OPC acknowledge this) Everywhere baptism is in the NT it direclty talks about acomplishing what it says it acomplishes, and it talks about it in the passive tense as something that is being done to you, and not something you do. You are entitled to disagree with Lutheranism, but at least know what it is you disagree with.
TruthJesusAloneSaves 7 months ago
This only proves that you're really a Melancthonian and not a Lutheran. And it's rather telling when those who oppose the Apostolic teaching on the atonement must use straw man arguments to bolster their position. If you've REALLY got the correct position, then misrepresenting, and then tearing down said misrepresentation, should not be necessary. But alas, this is the case that we Calvinists always run into.
stegokitty 7 months ago
@stegokitty Really? In later years, Melanchthon wanted to kiss up to the Calvinists, unlike Dr. Luther, who stood firm until the end. We Lutherans adhere to Apostolic teaching--perhaps not the teaching of the false apostle John Calvin--but the Apostle John, who said "[Christ] is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" (I Jn. 2:2).
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - How nice, referring to Calvin is a "false apostle", when nothing of the sort has been aimed at Luther. Luther & Calvin were both God-fearing men, with some things right on both sides. And on the topic of "standing firm", are you going to admire the Mormon or stands firm to the end? And as far as 1 John 2:2, all verses have a context. I would ask you, does the word "world" and "all" in the Bible always mean every single individual? Your interpretation creates MANY problems.
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty Heard your arguments, used to believe them, don't anymore, and don't need the sarcasm. A Mormon's obstinacy is nothing compared to unwavering fidelity to God's Word--do you not know the difference? If you want context for "world," see 5:19 of the same epistle: "the WHOLE WORLD lies in the power of the evil one." Not talking about elect Jews or Gentiles, but ALL the sinful world, all of whom Jesus Christ died for. It's clear that YOUR interpretation has many problems.
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - When I use sarcasm you'll know it. It was a deserved rhetorical question. And will you say that when "all the world was taxed" that it included China, Africa, Autralia, and the Americas? Granted there are contexts where "world" and "all" DO mean every individual, but very few. Do you think that Jesus suffered and died for Pharaoh's sins? He was already in Hell. And what of those who never believe -- did Jesus died for their sins? Then why are they going to Hell?
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty Oh, well I'll consider myself warned! I never referred to Luke 2, which is obviously in a very different context. I'm talking soteriology here, lad. I think Jesus "suffered and died" for the sins of every member of the human race, and while the benefits of the Atonement are not applied to all, I challenge you to prove otherwise using the Scriptures. People are damned for their willful unbelief (Mt. 23:37, Acts 7:51, 13:46). Let's not blame God, shall we?
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - Straw man. No Reformed Christian believes that it's God's fault that a sinner goes to Hell. I couldn't agree more that people are damned for their WILLFUL unbelief. That's the point, son. No one WILL repent and believe UNLESS the inward work of the Holy Spirit BRINGS that dead spirit to life, repentance, and faith. ALL of these are shown in the Scriptures to be GIFTS from God. As to for whom Christ died, He said Himself "I lay down my life for the SHEEP" John 10:11,14,
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty And you never answered me about "the world" in the context of I John 2:2, 5:19. :-D
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - 1 John 2:2 is that Jesus died for the sins of people all over the world. I've already shown that "world" and "all" rarely means "every single individual", and neither does it say so here, nor can you prove it from its context. Other Scriptures mitigate against such an interpretation. No Scripture stands alone. 5:2 is also not including all men. Afterall, is John and those to whom he's writing "under the control of the evil one"? Look at the next verse ... continued ...
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty 5:2? What book are you quoting? On the contrary, that's EXACTLY what you can prove from the context...not in the context of Luke 2, which has no relation to what I'm attempting to discuss with you!
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
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@AnHonestChristian - You asked me "What book are you quoting?" I'm responding to THIS: "And you never answered me about "the world" in the context of I John 2:2, 5:19. :-D" You asked me to respond to 1 John 2:2 (or was that (capital i, or lower case L) a typo? If so, it means you might want to slow down before posting. And next time don't just say "5:2". Five Two WHAT? or rather WHAT 5:2? especially since it appears you're rushing with your responses, and possibly creating errors.
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty Somebody else is getting fed up with you too...they spammed your comment. You're the one asking me about this fabled "5:2." I ask what you're talking about, and you reply, "next time don't just say '5:2.' If you don't know what book I'm quoting, just ask, or problem-solve and look up 2:2 in John's Gospel & Epistles, but don't blame me for responding to your points. You are a Calvinist who doesn't know what I'm talking about; therefore, your opinion is unsolicited AND unqualified.
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - I have no idea what "spamming" a comment means, nor do I care if someone is "fed up" with me. If you want to end the conversation just say so. This has nothing to do with being a Calvinist and not knowing what you're talking about, it's about POOR COMMUNICATION and not knowing what you're talking about because I'm not a mind reader. Be more clear and less cryptic in your posts and we won't have this problem.
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty Unfortunately, I think we have reached an impasse. And it's not because we've had a stimulating theological discussion, but because you don't know theological terminology or the books of the Bible. I think I've been very clear in what I've posted. But of course, it makes sense to me coming from my mind. So, in all fairness, I would like to ask the other users who have commented on this video which one of us is clear and which one lacks understanding.
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - Sir, I read the Bible every day of my life. Just because you post badly and expect me to read your mind doesn't mean I don't know the books of the Bible. I'm also quite aware of theological terminology. Is this the only way you can get around your problems, is to use ad hominem? And what do you think is going to happen with your question, eh? Those who are in your corner are going to side with you. What a cop out. It only proves to me that you have no real case.
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty Ah, so I "use ad hominem." And what do you call YOUR comments, which call me "insane" and a "jackass." What do you call implying that I reject Sola Fide? Or that I'm a poor communicator? Could it be that those in my "corner" and even some in "yours" will see that you are the one with your proverbial pants down? What are you afraid of?
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - 1 John 5:2 " This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands". (1 John 5:2)
"Now there is in Jerusalem near the Sheep Gate a pool, which in Aramaic is called Bethesda[a] and which is surrounded by five covered colonnades" (John 5:2)
I've no idea what it is that you expect to communicate to me with either of these.
Notice how you didn't respond to the fact that Jesus died for the SHEEP.
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty My main proof text was First John 2:2 (cf. I John 5:19). I'm not sure where you got those two verses you cite in your above comment. Anyway...And perhaps you could kindly point me to in which comment you asked me about Jesus and the sheep. Regardless, Jesus came to die for the lost sheep of Israel (Matt. 15:24), though we know He didn't exclusively die for the Jews. He came to His own, but His own received Him not (John 1:11)!
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - I didn't ask you about Jesus and the sheep. You said Jesus died for everyone and challenged me to show otherwise. I did. Jesus laid down His life for the SHEEP, not for everyone. There is no verse that says "everyone" nor "ever person" nor anything of that nature. Jesus died for the SHEEP, not for the GOATS. Jesus said that those who disbelieved did so BECAUSE they are NOT His sheep, not that they are not His sheep BECAUSE they don't believe (even though it's applicable).
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty You said, and I quote, "Notice how you didn't respond to the fact that Jesus died for the SHEEP." But you insist you didn't say that...
When you use specific terms like that, you remind of the liberals who say, "There's no verse in the Bible that says, 'Gay people go to Hell.' " Well, of course the Scriptures teach that, but not those exact same words. My apologies for not being able to satisfy your unreasonable request (and I'm sure that offends you too).
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - "You said, and I quote, "Notice how you didn't respond to the fact that Jesus died for the SHEEP." But you insist you didn't say that..." Are you completely insane? I've never denied saying that at all! Why would I? It's what JESUS said. Jesus said He lays down His life for the SHEEP. The SHEEP consist not only of the flock of JEWS but also of the OTHER flock, the GENTILES, which shall ALL from ALL THE WORLD, be brought into the SAME FOLD.
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty Yes, I am insane. Buwahahaha. Because my sole authority is God's infallible and inerrant verbally-inspired Word, the Holy Scriptures.
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - And your response makes no sense whatsoever. I asked you if you were insane, because of this ridiculous claim "You said, and I quote, "Notice how you didn't respond to the fact that Jesus died for the SHEEP." But you insist you didn't say that...". I never denied anything. The previous question had nothing to do with whether or not you believe the Bible to be the only authority or not. So stick to the topic of each posting, and stop acting like a jackass.
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty I've covered this ground. Your diarrhea of the mouth about what I say/you say has junked up the comment section on this video for days now. Though I have explained this already, I'll be very clear: The Church is Jesus' elect flock which He died for. They will be saved and be preserved until the end. Also, all sinners are like sheep gone astray(Is 53:6) and Christ desires to save all, though not all will receive Him. Don't waste my time with another crack about your sheep comments.
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - Thank you for speaking more clearly. If you'd do that more often...
If Christ desires to save ALL, then Christ will save all. He isn't helpless against the will of the fallen creature. If He DESIRES them to be saved He will give them the same faith that He MUST give to the other sinners, reveal the Father to them, etc., But the Father never GAVE the reprobate to the Son, for as He said ALL whom the Father has GIVEN me WILL come to Me, & I will raise them up on the Last Day.
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty "If Christ desires to save ALL, then Christ will save all..." This is where the Calvinists' rationalism gets them in trouble. With the same logic, universalists argue that Christ will save all in order that He might be completely merciful. Either way, man is putting conditions on God's Word. This is wrong. I direct you again to the verses which clearly teach man is condemned because he chooses to reject God: Mat. 23:37, Acts 7:51, 13:46, etc.
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - And you keep falsely assuming that I'm objecting to the fact that men are condemned because they choose to reject God. It's what all people do naturally. It's our default "setting" to reject Christ. So how's that going to be fixed? You've already said it -- GOD MUST GIVE THEM FAITH & REPENTANCE. But God DOESN'T give everyone repentance and faith. Therefore God does not "desire" every person to be saved. God desires for all KINDS of men to be saved.
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty But if you agree that when we are saved, it's by God's will and when we are lost, it's man's will, then you agreeing with MY position. :-D
God desires that "all should reach repentance" (II Pet. 3:9), "all people to be saved" (I Tim. 2:4), as He is the "Savior of all people, especially those who believe" (I Tim. 4:10).
Here's a great video that articulates the Lutheran position: youtube.com/watch?v=-eU9C-gEtxk
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - Try and not put words in my mouth. God can will that which He does not approve. This is evident in the story of Joseph and his brothers, and most blatantly in the crucifixion. Again, you're interpreting that verse as if the rest of the Scriptures don't exist. And please tell me how Jesus IS the SAVIOUR of the non-elect? If He IS the Saviour of the non-elect, then He WILL save them. The word "especially" could (should) be translated "in particular, the elect".
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty "You meant evil against me, but God meant it for good" (Gen. 50:20) and "this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men" (Acts 2:23) refer to God's predestination/providence, not reprobation. Let me ask you this: Do you know Greek?
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - You're failing to understand the NECESSARY opposite side of the coin. If God foreordains ONLY certain people unto salvation, then by default, the rest are reprobate, and nothing can change that. And to answer your question, I don't need to know Greek. The Bibles we have are sufficient. I do have access to whatever resources you might want to suggest. And you ignored the verses that I gave which show that God predetermined sinners unto damnation.
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty Why is it necessary for your position to be true? If it's not in Scripture, there's NO REASON to believe it. "Don't go beyond what is written!" So, without knowing Greek, you have interpreted I Timothy 4:10 in such a way that is expedient to your BIAS and thereby criticize my position, which, so far, you haven't disproved...Seems rather intellectually dishonest to me...
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - Like I said, I don't need to KNOW Greek, in order to simply use the tools available. And just to let you know, I've spoken with others who DO know Greek, because I've used this argument before, and they were in agreement with my findings. I wasn't trying to be right in order to be right. This isn't about my bias or your bias, but about what the truth is. There are no verses which say Trinity, yet you and I believe it because it's the teaching of the WHOLE Scriptures.
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty And there are no verses which say Christ died for "every member of the human race", yet I believe the it's the teaching of the WHOLE Scriptures. :-D
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - I thought you believe what the Bible teaches because the Bible actually says so. This is not the case with universal atonement. Even the OT model (which is a shadow of the atonement perfection in Christ) does not include the sins of people outside the covenant community. The sacrifices were for the sins of the people ... God's people. Not those in pagan religions. You'll need to provide proof for such a teaching from the WHOLE Scriptures. And please stop with the smileys
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty :)
USAsoldier1955 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - You're confusing "Israel" with national, natural Jews. Christ is true Israel, and all who are IN Christ are Israel, having nothing to do with one's natural heritage, but with a Spiritual heritage. But what you said is the very REASON why "for the whole world" was said -- to combat the notion that Messiah came only for the Jews.
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty Yes, I agree the Church is the true, spiritual Israel. But that doesn't explain why John 1:11 clearly says He came to His own and they did not receive Him. Jesus Christ was born a Jew, he was a member of ethnic/national Israel, and His own people despised and rejected Him.
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian ... continued ... God has given US understanding SO THAT "WE" may know Him who is true. Has God done this to everyone? Then why doesn't everyone know Him who is true? Oh, because there is something INHERENT in them which is better, more noble, less proud, less sinful than ... you?
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty Perhaps you're not acquainted with Lutheran doctrine (that would explain a lot). We believe in eternal predestination/election to grace and that God monergistically saves us for the sake of Jesus Christ alone. I've already cited Scripture that demonstrates those who are lost are responsible for their own condemnation before God.
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - I've already agreed that those who are lost are responsible for their own condemnation before God. There is nothing incompatible with that statement and the Reformed Faith, which might be an indicator that you are not familiar with Calvinism (which would explain a lot).
Indeed I don't know a lot about Lutheranism. However, I've read Luther's "The Bondage of the Will" which is in perfect keeping with Reformed (spelled Biblical) teaching.
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty You asked why not all come to God; I replied that it's because they are condemned by their rejection. I can't find a comment of yours that makes that statement. Calvinists believe that God predestines some to damnation (making it God's will, not man's, that they are lost). That's entirely incompatible with the Lutheran (spelled Biblical) teaching. I have no problem with The Bondage of the Will, although it's the Book of Concord that serves as the summary of what Lutherans believe.
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian -
1) "Because they are condemned by their own rejection" is not an answer to the question "Why do not all come to God?", but rather is an answer to the question "Why are those who don't come to God condemned?" which I didn't ask.
2) We don't believe God ACTIVELY CAUSES men to disbelieve. That is the DEFAULT position of all men, as we are born in disbelief and rebellion (original sin). All God need do is to not give the (undeserved) grace to one sinner that He gives another.
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty 1. Yep, that's my answer, whether your fallen sense of reason understands it or not.
2. Yes, I know the difference between classical Calvinism and Hyper-Calvinism. Either way, the error that God "passes over"/predestines reprobates to be lost persists. Friend, in all sincerity, you seem tired. Please rest and then carefully re-read these comments. I have not said much of what you allege.
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - Excuse me? Did you just accuse me of being in an estate of damnation?
And there is no error in God passing over the reprobate, non-elect sinner and giving grace to another (elect) sinner. That's the POINT of gracious election and predestination. And this is your only warning. Do not insult me again with condescension.
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty No I certainly did not. For the love of God, I keep telling you that I agree with you that we cannot of ourselves come to Christ! God saves us by His work through Christ ALONE--hence, monergism. Do you know what monergism is? Do YOU know what you as a Calvinist believe?
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - You certainly did not what? I don't mean to be obtuse here, but being rather seasoned in YT talk, I know that people often answer things which are not necessarily in the block directly above their response. So try and include just a hint as to what you're referring next time, K? I'm well aware of monergism, and the fact that monergism makes no sense whatsoever with universal atonement.That's the problem. Jesus didn't die for the sins of the reprobate. Already proven.
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty You know what the problem is? You ARE obtuse. I've made clear citations from Scripture, I've responded to your challenges (which you apparently did not intend for me to answer) and I have the majority of Church history backing me up.
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - And you are clearly losing your temper. You've also NOT responded to my "challenges" at all. Look at your ridiculous response to my questions [see my post beginning with 1) "Because they are condemned by their own rejection" is not an answer to the question "Why do not all come to God?"].
Try answering the question: What is the reason why some people come to Christ and others do not? That is the question. I'm asking you to explain the why behind the different responses
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty No, I'm about as even keel as I always am. When I respond to comments, I am intentional about what I say because I'm serious about what I believe. I can play your game, and I suspect you'll still find fault with me.
Your question: "What is the reason why some people come to Christ and others do not?"
The Bible's answer: Those who come to Christ have been effectually called by God and given the gift of faith; those who do not have freely rejected Him. Basically what I said before.
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - So then you'll agree that God gives to one the gift of faith & not to another. Therefore God has foreordained that only those who are given the gift of faith shall indeed come to Christ. Christ came specifically for the sheep, whom the Father gave Him from the foundation of the world -- those whose names are written in the Book of Life. Christ says He lays down His life for the sheep. Christ says people do not believe because they are not His sheep.
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty I whole-heartedly subscribe to election to grace! Once again, this doesn't necessitate that God has foreordained sinners to be lost. Here is what Luther says on the matter: "Follow the reasoning of [Romans]. Fix your attention on Christ and the Gospel, so that you may recognize your sin and his grace. When you have come under the shadow of the cross and suffering, they will teach you, in chapters 9-11, about providence and what a comfort it is." (Abbreviated, his Preface to Romans)
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - If God has foreordained the elect unto salvation, then He has, by NOT giving them the grace of repentance and faith, foreordained them to damnation. I am not talking about equal ultimacy here. No thinking Calvinist does! God doesn't have to work unbelief in the reprobate, all He need do is to not give him the grace which He gives to another sinner -- an elect sinner.
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty You've claimed you believe men are condemned by their own will, and then say above: "He has...foreordained them to damnation." Really? Where do the Scriptures declare this? And by the way, the Westminster Confession doesn't count. ;-)
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - No problem. Romans 9:18 says God hardens whom He wills to harden; & "What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—PREPARED FOR DESTRUCTION?" (v.22); "They stumble because they disobey the message—WHICH IS ALSO WHAT THEY WERE DESTINED FOR." (1Pet2:8); Again, John 10:26 JESUS says "you do not believe BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT MY SHEEP." "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated" BEFORE THEY WERE BORN.
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty The hardening of a sinner's heart is God's affirmation of and judgment on their sinful lifestyle. It clearly says in Exodus that Pharaoh SINNED by hardening his OWN heart (human responsibility rears its head again). In the midst of your proof-texting, notice that ONLY the elect in Christ are "prepared BEFOREHAND for glory" (Romans 9:23). God rightly hates sinners under His Law but also loves us, as His Gospel teaches us (John 3:16)!
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - 1) God said BEFOREHAND that HE would harden Pharaoh's heart SO THAT God would get glory. 2) Stop acting as if I don't believe in human responsibility. It's dishonest and stupid. 3) If God prepares BEFOREHAND the elect for glory, then by default He is preparing BEFOREHAND the reprobate for damnation. There is no such thing as a reprobate becoming elect. God chooses to be merciful to one sinner, and justly punish another equally guilty sinner.
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty 1) Where does the Scripture say that? And where does it say Pharaoh was "foreordained" to spend eternity in Hell? 2) You don't consistently carry out human responsibility in your doctrine because of your belief in double predestination. Here's the note on Rom. 9:22 in The Lutheran Study Bible (CPH, 2008), whose editors are qualified to comment on the original Greek: "prepared. Implies readiness for (as in 'ripe for') destruction, not irreversibly foreordained destruction."
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - "But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Exod 9:16
But actually the Bible is silent on where Pharaoh went for eternity, though I don't think it's difficult to guess.
But if God predestined Moses for salvation, yet did not predestine Pharaoh for salvation, then He at least passively predestined Pharaoh to Hell.
How is one "ripe" for damnation except that God doesn't prevent it?
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty "But actually the Bible is silent on where Pharaoh went for eternity." Exactly what I've been saying. "though I don't think it's difficult to guess." Okay, but Scripture's silent on that matter. "He at least passively predestined Pharaoh to Hell." Once again, this is not according to Scripture, but according to your own logical/rationalization. Being "'ripe' for damnation" is part of the human responsibility you keep saying you affirm...
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - Once again, my position is from reasoning from the Scriptures, which you must do as well to maintain orthodoxy. You and I both know how easily heretics come up with doctrines based upon a wooden interpretation of obscure or oddball verses, all the while ignoring the entire scope of Scripture. If God did not elect Pharaoh to the means of grace, and if God did not elect to give the gift of repentance and faith in him, the God, at least by default, predestined him to Hell.
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty My position is also derived from Scriptural reasoning, which is why I continue to tell you that double predestination is false and unproven, because it is not found in God's Word. This whole business of God predestining to Hell "by default" is alien to the revealed written truth we have from God, and I will not believe it.
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - If a king, out of two death-row criminals, chooses to grant pardon to one, then by default the other is going to the gallows. Period. And as much as that is irrefutably true, God's predestination is still a bit different, in that He created the reprobate with no intention of saving them, neither does He owe it to them. Their purpose is to sin, and to be justly punished for those sins, as they do it in accordance to the desires of their hearts, and all this for God's glory.
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty I realize God owes no condemned sinner His grace, and I agree that it's an act of this selfsame grace!
Smiley face. You should start using frowny ones.
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@stegokitty :)
USAsoldier1955 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian Dear Brother Timothy,
I truly admire your Lutheran Christian patience with the Calvinists & their contrary brethren in error, the Arminians....two sides of the same sad coin....many of them are on "autopilot" and will never awaken to actually share a reasonable conversation with you!
But at least they have your ministry of the Word to them, that perhaps some may "Wake, Awake, For Night Is Flying" (Hymn 609, The Lutheran Hymnal). Matt. 25: 1-13, KJV! :)
USAsoldier1955 6 months ago
@USAsoldier1955 Well, thank you, Father Philip, I appreciate that. :-)
It really would be easier for me to actually sit down in person with the people who want to debate...that's just one of the disadvantages of all this computer business...it also helps them to be rude while hiding behind a username.
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian Amen! :)
USAsoldier1955 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian " I have no problem with The Bondage of the Will" Really? Then you should then have no problem in acknowledging that NO ONE WILL come to Christ UNLESS God WORKS FAITH in that person and GRANTS repentance to him, SO THAT he WILL repent of his sins, and embrace Jesus Christ, as He is offered in the Gospel. But no, it appears that you REJECT what Luther taught on the BONDAGE of the will, & instead claim that fallen man has the ability to turn himself from sin unto Christ.
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty Okay, (a) I've already stated that I'm a monergist and I believe what you've said above and (b) I have never said that "fallen man has the ability to turn himself from sin unto Christ." I'm not a synergist/semi-Pelagian/Arminian, and genuinely have no idea where you got those notions. That's damnable heresy.
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - I agree it's heresy, but to say that Jesus died for the sins of people who were not chosen by God is absurd. To woodenly interpret "whole world" and "all" (as I've already displayed) is not wise, as it causes serious problems, such as having people in the Americas being taxed by Rome, which didn't happen. Neither did Jesus die for the sins of every single person who has ever lived. The Scriptures do not TEACH such, though some verses, contextually divorced, sound like it.
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty Now you're agreeing with me and asking me if I'm disagreeing with you. :-O
Yeah, I got that you don't believe the whole "all means all"/"world means world" bit. And yet you would say that when it says in Romans 5 that sin and death reign in ALL you would say that means all. The same passage teaches that Christ, by His work on the cross, accomplished Objective Justification for the whole world. The benefits of His Passion--the forgiveness of sins--are applied through Word & Sacrament.
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - When did I ASK you anything in the previous response? There are no questions in the previous post. I've said I don't believe something because it's what the Bible teaches, not based on some dreadful means of interpretation which ignores the rest of Scripture. I've nothing to prove to myself, and I don't care if my system gets shot down. The only thing I'm interested in is truth. No passage says nor teaches that Jesus accomplished objective justification for every person.
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty Forgive me my poor choice of words. You basically DEMANDED out of the blue that I explain "the fact Jesus died for the SHEEP."
"I don't care if my system gets shot down. The only thing I'm interested in is truth." Don't you think "your system" and "truth" are the same?
"No passage says nor teach that Jesus accomplished objective justification for every person." Read Romans 5. And then see that the Church has historically interpreted the Atonement as being for all people.
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - Have you never been wrong about something? Especially have you never been wrong about things concerning God? I have. The theological system in which I was raised is nowhere near that which I've come to embrace. And so, I am open to the possibility of being wrong, though I'm rather convinced that I'm not.
Really? The Church historically interprets Rom 5 as universal atonement?
Are you referring to the Church of Rome?
Hmmm.
I suppose now we'll ditch Faith ALONE too?
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty Yes, I've been very wrong. I was raised a Southern Baptist and I'm now a Confessional Lutheran. Jesus opened my mind to believe the Scriptures (Luke 24:45). Yes, the Church historically interprets Romans 5 "as universal atonement," but NOT universalism. I think you're implying that I'm rejecting Sola Scriptura (not Sola Fide), which I'm not, as the historic interpretation gives credence to my argument.
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - I mean that if you use a "wooden" interpretation of particular Scriptures, all the while ignoring (however unintentionally) other verses (since Scripture doesn't contradict itself, & must be taken as a whole) you then must reject the doctrine of Sola Fide, since there is no verse that uses those words, & in fact verses (used by Rome) that say otherwise (James). But you & I know how angry (& rightly so!) Luther became at the "donkeys" who insisted on "alone" IN the verse.
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty Your logic is not at all consistent. "Justified by faith apart from the works of the law" (Romans 3:25) is synonymous with the formulation, justification by faith alone. It's not that Scripture doesn't explicitly say that Christ died for the elect (we both agree He did). That doesn't change the fact that Jesus still died for the sins of the whole world, elect and non-elect.
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - Now THAT'S funny! My logic is perfectly consistent. There is NO VERSE which says that Jesus died for the non-elect. PERIOD. You're woodenly interpreting "all" and "world" where it's convenient for your false position on the Atonement. Again, is the love of money the root of ALL evil? And when the WORLD was taxed, did it include the Americas? And when we read that the WHOLE WORLD is under sway of the Devil, does that include Christians?
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty *Yawn.* Fallacy, fallacy, fallacy...
"And when we read that the WHOLE WORLD is under the sway of the Devil, does that include Christians?"
Why, yes it does. BEFORE conversion, all sinners are condemned for their unbelief (John 3:18). And it was for these sinners God gave His only-begotten Son (John 3:16). :-D
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - Try not to act like an ass when responding, K?
Contextually, since John is speaking to those whom he describes as children of God, THEY are NOT under the sway of the Devil. That's the point! John says "The whole world IS under the sway of the Devil" YET, this is not UNIVERSALLY true, at all times, and in all ways, because neither HE nor those who are in Christ fit that category AFTER conversion. Are you interested in TRUTH or just protecting what you've chosen to embrace?
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty Try not to act like you're right when you're actually an ignorant Calvinist when responding, K? :-D
I see your point about the passages from I John, but that doesn't disprove that, as I have said, ALL are sinners, ALL are condemned, and Christ died for ALL.
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - Christ died for the sheep. "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa 53:11) How could Christ be "satisfied" if He suffered and died for so many who were not included in the number of those finally justified? To what end did Christ die for the reprobate?
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty You beat a dead (and decaying) horse, my friend. I've already explained that I believe in election to grace and that Christ died for the elect. To answer the question "How could Christ be 'satisfied'" also demands an answer to the question, "How can God hate sin and yet allow it?" We simply trust that all things work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to His purpose! Christ died for all. That is the "end" to which Christ died for sinners.
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - Repeating "Christ died for all" doesn't make it so. Christ said He died for the SHEEP, and then said that certain people were NOT His sheep. Even the OT shadow of atonement, the sacrificial system, was not for EVERYONE, but for the covenant people ONLY. And I'm not beating a dead horse at all. You keep saying you believe something and then deny it in your next breath. Using God's hatred of sin, yet permitting it doesn't address the issue of Christ dying for reprobates.
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty And yet you've said I'm the one with a "wooden" interpretation of Scripture! I haven't denied anything "in my next breath." I say let the Scriptural paradoxes stand. Your theology is neat, tidy, and "logical," but Lutheran theology is messy because it's not concerned with being rational, but being true to Scripture.
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - Then you cannot stick with "salvation by grace alone, through faith alone" for there is no verse that says as much. This doctrine (as true as it is!) is compiled by the full teaching of Scripture, just as the Trinity is, and just as the Doctrine of Predestination and Election, which is INEXTRICABLY connected to the Doctrine of the Atonement, and that being for the elect ONLY, and not for every individual who has ever lived on the planet, including the reprobate.
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty And I contend that the Doctrine of Unlimited Atonement is compiled by the full teaching of Scripture! :-D
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - MUST you use the stupid smileys all the time? It's actually a sign of arrogance. I think I'm dealing with an 18-year old here.
I'm sorry, but you'll have to provide Scriptural proof for your claim that the full teaching of Scripture is that of universal atonement. But I know that you cannot, and so you're simply hiding behind the ol' "don't confuse me with the facts, I'll just stick with what's comfortable."
It's called idolatry.
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty Must you be such a Debby Downer when I'm enjoying myself? :-D
Consider the Good Sower (Matt. 13; that's The Gospel of Matthew, chapter 13), who indiscriminately sows the seed of the Word of God in the hearts of not only those who are rooted in it, but also those who fall away (another problem for your house of cards).
Don't confuse me with the crap. I'll just stick with what's Scriptural. :-D :-D :-D
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - How is that a problem for my "house of cards"?
This only proves how little (to nothing) you know about the Reformed Faith.
I don't have to confuse you, you're already confused.
And immature.
It also appears that you have no problem in offending on more than the cross.
And your little toady too.
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty 1. The parable proves that apostasy is possible, in contradistinction to your errant belief that it is impossible for a Christian to fall away. 2. I know about the "Reformed Faith," but I'm more interested in what Scripture says. Haha I'm immature? I appreciate that you take doctrinal issues seriously, but I think you take yourself TOO seriously. Jesus was the most offensive Person in history and He had no qualms with rebuking those in error. Now go have a hissy fit about that.
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - It's possible for a professing Christian to fall away. It's not possible for the elect to fall away. Jesus said that all who are learn from and are drawn by the Father come to Him, and that He raises them up on the Last Day. All of them. None can be taken away from Him.
This has nothing to do with having a "hissy fit" over what Jesus says, nor with your disagreeing with me, but in HOW you're going about it, with the smiley faces, and the constant straw man erection.
stegokitty 6 months ago
@stegokitty I believe that the elect will ultimately be preserved until the end, but that doesn't rule the possibility of a brief falling away. Jesus warns that the unfruitful branches will be thrown away and burned (John 15:6). Paul echoes this warning, as many Jews who rejected their Messiah were broken off, while Gentile believers were grafted in (Romans 11:20).
Is this ":-D" really that disturbing to you?
Have a little fun. :-)
AnHonestChristian 6 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - A brief falling away & "apostacy" are not the same thing. Why bring it up at all, unless you're simply trying to confuse an already confusing conversation? Let's try to be kind to one another, seeing as we're brothers in Christ, and not just throw in red herrings.
As far as the smileys, you know as well as I do, the reason for your use of them.
It has nothing to do with light-hearted camaraderie.
If we were talking about rock bands or TV shows it'd be different.
stegokitty 5 months ago
@stegokitty It was related to my point about Matthew 13, as you can see above. I find it interesting that you judge my motives, and that you NOW call me your brother in Christ (to which I have no objection), when earlier you have implied that I am an idolater when you said, "you're simply hiding behind the ol' 'don't confuse me with the facts, I'll just stick with what's comfortable.' It's called idolatry."
AnHonestChristian 5 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - In the words of Calvin, we're all a bunch of idol factories. We're told by the Apostle John to keep away from idols. He wasn't talking to the world, but to the Church, because we all still have a passion for erecting one idol after another. Either of us can just as easily make an idol of our particular theological position, if indeed we place it above Scripture, and are not willing to be corrected by It.
I'm able to judge an obvious motive.
You know it and so do I.
stegokitty 5 months ago
@stegokitty Ah, well that makes sense, brother idolater...I trust you don't find that offensive? ;-)
As to my "obvious motives," I wish we could sit down face-to-face and discuss these things. We wouldn't waste as much time, and I think you'd be more willing to put the talking points aside...That said, you don't happen to live down here in the South, do you?
AnHonestChristian 5 months ago
@AnHonestChristian - No offense taken. I know I'm a mess. And that's another good sign from the Lord, is the gracious conviction, and awareness of our own sinfulness. The reprobate doesn't really know this, as he thinks either that he's a good person, and can earn his way to heaven; or that he's a bad person, but can earn his way to heaven, or that Jesus gives him the ability to earn his way into heaven, etc.
I lived in SC for the first half of my life.
I've been living in RI for the 2nd half.
stegokitty 5 months ago
@stegokitty I have a good friend who lives in Summerville, SC.
In the event that you lived in North Carolina, I would invite out for coffee and perhaps we could talk about these things person-to-person.
AnHonestChristian 5 months ago