brailleGraffiti you said," I never claimed the Bible wasn't true." So are you saying that it is true? And I beg to differ on the comment about jesus being meek and mild! Jesus flew in the face of the most intelligent religious leaders and philosophers of that time! Answer this question,"why do many people paint jesus as a "you can use me as a door mat because I'm meek and mild" man!
@jayjaygee123 I cannot speak for chrismca, but I absolutely am tolerant of Christianity. If you paid any attention to what I've said, I find it to be decent worldview, and take no particular offense to it in and of itself. I do not get up on a stage and work myself into a sweat while ranting about how Christians deserve anyone's "wrath" (like some people). You need to stop with your 1984 double-thinking and pay more attention to what's actually going on.
@jayjaygee123 What you are accusing chrismca (and me by proxy, since I agree with him) is utter nonsense. Baucham did not tell me I was wrong, he told a defenseless student with "one semester of philosophy". I love being told I'm wrong, especially when it reveals a serious error in my thinking. I enjoy debate, and welcome it whenever I have the chance. What Baucham did was not a "debate". He is a loud mouthed, arrogant, superficial, and self-inflated charlatan, undeserving of the title "Dr".
@brailleGraffiti Who's arrogant: the one who stands on something outside his own authority or the one who claims he knows something isn't true because it doesn't make sense to him? What he has said can be found filling the pages of scripture which are self-authenticating and claim to be the word of God. You have a problem with it sounding arrogant? Take it up with God; Baucham's just telling you what He already said.
@jayjaygee123 I never claimed the Bible wasn't true. I merely pointed out that his attitude is contradictory to the teachings of Jesus, who preached meekness and compassion. If there is a Christian God, He probably won't be very happy with Baucham. I do not have to plea my case to Him: if He exists, He already knows and I respect that he will act accordingly. I have a personal disbelief in the Christian Bible, but by no means do I force it on anyone else. You are grasping at straws now.
@brailleGraffiti ...Let me get this straight; the one who has a personal disbelief in the God of the bible, the only True and Living God, the Lord of Hosts who does not lie according to His own word, is telling me, the Christian commenting on a Christian video, what this God teaches and who He is. And I'm the one grasping at straws?...little arrogant don't you think?
@jayjaygee123 So proof by authority it is then? So far you have both proven unqualified to speak about your own religion. Seeing as how I have read the Bible, and clearly paid more attention to theological questions than you, I have condescended to your level and tried to share some knowledge with you. You see, I like to use reason, not hysteria and gut feelings to make my point. This may seem revolutionary to you, but I assure you, I am nothing special.
@brailleGraffiti Aww; well thank you for being so humble. I love it when smart people condescend to my ignorant level and teach me a subject they utterly reject.
Seeing as you're so much higher than me in the field of understanding I suppose there's nothing more I can offer you. But since the question is on authority go look at Mark 11:27-33 and see if you agree with the Pharisees' sentiment.
@brailleGraffiti Read Luke 13:1-9 if you want to hear Jesus' thoughts on seemingly meaningless deaths. He also says through Isaiah "Behold, the day of the Lord comes, cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate; and he will destroy its sinners from it." And through John, "Whoever's name is not found in the book will be cast into the lake of fire." That is why for your sake He cries out "Come to me all you who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest." He will act
@jayjaygee123 You don't even comprehend your own Bible verses. Jesus was not being dismissive and arrogant like Baucham, and even if he was, he is JESUS, the Son of Almighty God. Baucham has no authority to talk of fire and brimstone, since as Jesus said, he is no better than anyone else. You must first remove the beam from your own eye before you pick the splinter out of your brother's. See what I mean?
@brailleGraffiti Of course I see what you mean; you don't understand the scriptures. You willfully cut and choose to hear only what you want to hear. I'm pretty sure "Unless you repent you will also likewise perish" is a pretty dismissive thing to say to someone when they ask why Jews were killed in such a horrid fashion. Thank you, btw, for totally overlooking that passage (Luke 13:1-9). I love being ignored so you can set up a straw man.
@jayjaygee123 The meek shall inherit the Earth, not sweaty, well paid Baptist preachers on stage in a mega-church with thousands of mindless applauding fans.
@brailleGraffiti Yes, and Moses was so meek in insisting that everyone obeyed the words he wrote because he was recording the Law of God. You don't understand anything; Romans 1:18-23 is an apt description. Of course 1st Corinthians 1:18 is too.
But as far as this discussion is concerned I'm done. May you go in grace.
"I hate the builders of dungeons in the air... Ascending souls congratulate each other on the admirable harmonies of the world." - Ralph Waldo Emmerson
@braille and chrismca If Voddie bothers you guys so much, why do you torture yourselves? Isn't the universe big enough for whatever fictions (in your view) people want to fabricate? In your view, nothing ultimately matters anyway, and all of this "argumentation" is pointless theatre.
@idlepink17 It seems to me that you find philosophical discussions distasteful, annoying, boring, and tedious, which is EXACTLY your problem. You want to go about your foolish ways unchallenged, without ever facing any difficult questions.
As for chrismca, yeah, I don't even know what he's on about with his "orthogonal" this and "orthogonal" that. I never heard that word used in a sentence. Doesn't mean that he's not using it correctly, and that you should ignore it. Again, don't be shallow.
@idlepink17 This is what philosophy is really about: having a discussion. Haven't you ever read a Socratic dialogue? A book by Nietzsche? Kierkegaard? It's certainly not about getting all sweaty in front of a crowd of people while they applaud your big, "scary" tirades about hell and the "evil" of man.
And if the only thing separating you from the belief that this world is "all theatre" (or in short, NIHILISM), is your belief in Jesus, then I think you are in desperate need of some philosophy.
@idlepink17 I'm honestly not torturing myself, and if you think that I do not thoroughly enjoy discussing philosophical issues with people (regardless of what they are), you are sadly, SADLY, mistaken about me. In fact, I've had the chance to apply many of the ideas of Nietzsche, as well as other philosophers I have only read about, to an actual conversation. My successes and failures in this discussion have made me a better philosophy student.
@idlepink17@idlepink17 As for your question "What good would a belief in God be if it wasn't a choice?", the answer is that it would be worthless. Which is EXACTLY what Baucham wants. Don't believe in God because you've taken philosophy and discovered that it's the best way to live your life. Philosophy will mess you up! It's all just a bunch of "big" pompous words! Don't "choose", listen to Baucham! He knows the way! He's been there!
@TheSnoop105 In risk of looking like a hypocrite and coming to the defense of someone who I think is a jackass, Baucham is by no means comparable to Hitler or Stalin. You are seriously misguided if you think this. Both of those men were profoundly manipulative and malicious (I would say "evil", but I don't really believe in that), and wielded way more power than Baucham could ever dream of. Baucham is at worst a little intolerant and superficial. Let's not make a mountain out of a mole hill.
@TheSnoop105 Thanks. Baucham is also far too educated in "modern ways" (which he simultaneously condemns) to ever be as cruel or thoughtless as Hitler or Stalin.
If Baucham took more than a semester of philosophy himself, he might know these things. If he did, then he is simply a manipulator, and you better "pray" that he has your best interests in mind.
If you follow Baucham, you are not being Christian, you are just following a set of doctrines that Dr. Baucham has prescribed to you from HIS interpretation of the Bible. Any TRUE Christian knows that the ONLY thing that makes you Christian is a personal relationship with Christ. Everything that follows after that is a footnote, and is inconsequential. Following a set of "Christian" ethics is merely a transient sign of obedience, the ethics are NOT what makes you Christian.
New Video Description: "Voddie Baucham dodges the age old question, 'if God is so powerful and good, why do bad things happen?' Simply because no one can answer that."
Just like a politician. Dodge the a legitimate question, and speak about something else. There is no god and that is why things happen they way they happen.
What is this buffoon doing on a college campus? Colleges are dedicated to the pursuit of the truth, and this fool won't answer a student's question unless they put it in a form that he can deal with! Then he "answers" with a bunch of guilt-filled, superstition that he could never defend in an honest, logical debate! If he needs a wrathful, condemning, sky-daddy to make sense of the world, then let him deal with his own deficits himself. What "college" would host this foul, bullying poltroon?
brailleGraffiti-not sure what your point is, the video "why I hate religion" pretty much hits the nail on the ole proverbial head (just like JESUS)! No one ever said if we keep the "law" or if we're "religious" enough we all go to heaven. Bottom line is, I'm religious because I do something everyday the same way but will it send me to heaven (I don't think so)! brailleGraffiti gotta do better than that!
@lhsffa I was responding to some of the things that Providential1611 said in his response videos, not in particular to anything here, but I felt that it was more relevant to this video than ones that he posted and that more people would see it (he also blocked me from posting in his videos, which is petty).
"No amount of discussion (here or anywhere else) will convert anyone if they are drawn by the holy spirit! This level of conversation is just meaningless words from both sides until God softens the heart of individuals (and no I'm not talking about the heart that pumps your blood!)"
Not sure why this reasonable observation was marked as spam, but it's soooo offensive that I re-posted it as "found art". Cheers.
***For those who believe in God, a higher power or something larger than themselves, no explanation is necessary; for those who don't... no explanation will suffice.***
@idlepink17 I think what you've quoted here, at first, sounds good but if you really think about the 2nd part, I don't think it's true. Many sources will tell you that nonbelievers understand good, evil, & suffering (even that biblically described as caused or approved by god) based on the study of ethics.
Example: the biblical approval of slavery is considered unethical by nonbelievers based on the human solidarity principle- and this principle is sufficient to support this ethical conclusion.
@chrismca Which quote are you referring to? Sorry, but ethics was not something mentioned in either statement. 'Ethics' is tangential, but separate argument/discussion from a whether or not an individual possesses (or not) a desire/will to believe.
@idlepink17 What do you mean "which quote?" The one I responded to, "For those who believe in god...." Isn't it a quote of someone else's work, or are you claiming that it's original?
As to ethics: ethics are central to a discussion of one's chosen beliefs because beliefs, in part, drive actions. For example, again, taking human beings as slaves; or, shamefully telling college students to have a negative self-concept.
@chrismca 1) The statement I quoted is an old saying, not necessary to footnote.
2) As for ethics, these "chosen beliefs" to which you refer are a *separate* issue from belief in a supreme being. One can live an "ethical" life (whatever that means in a given culture and era) and have no belief whatsoever in a supreme being; conversely, one can believe in God and live a completely UNethical life according to whatever standards that rule the day. One does not predicate the other.
@idlepink17 About 1) Good, now you know "which quote."
2) Of course chosen beliefs and supernatural beings are separate in the examples you've given, they're orthogonal! (BTW, the bellowing bag of bullshit in this video is a perfect example of an unethical believer.)
But what about when a chosen belief in a supernatural deity and ethics are not orthogonal?
Again, respond if you want, but with facts with sources.
@chrismca WHAT are you going on about? You sound exactly like someone who "took a semester of philosophy" because you like spewing $10 words that are designed to impress (but it's clear you have a loose understanding of what you're trying to convey).
Basically, it sounds like you believe that a belief necessitates certain action(s). Wrong and naive. And who are you to demand "facts with sources" when you don't provide any yourself (and why would these be germane to the conversation?)
@idlepink17 3) You claim I “demand facts with sources"’
-Wrong, I demanded nothing. I wrote “Respond if you like” This also escapes you?
4) You claim I “don't provide any” facts with sources.
-Wrong, I cited the fact “that the will has multiple parts” and suggest you consult sources like a “reference on epistemology” or Mook’s book
Discussion containing facts & sources is better & more helpful to understanding. So unless you can “bring something to the table” that’s at least accurate, so long
@chrismca What exactly do you find so offensively "unethical" about Voddie that would cause you to react with enough venom to call him a "bellowing bag of bullshit"? He really must scare you...seriously, and no offense intended, but that's a pretty emotional knee-jerk rxn.
@idlepink17 Here’s how Voddie’s unethical: Years of teaching at universities made me love their commitment to truth, reason, and science. I also love and value things these principles give humankind (medicines, etc) So when I hear Voddie speak this way to students based on nothing more than his supernatural beliefs, I feel contempt and scorn (not fear) based on my years (no knee-jerk) on campus. Attitudes like his befoul colleges, and no institution worthy of the title should allow such bigotry.
@chrismca I'd agree with you on truth, reason and science all being good principles, but apparently we'd disagree on where these come from. Tell me; does it befoul someone's character to tell them "you have a gift" when referring to their area of expertise? Is this not a compliment? If you really feel a man is a bigot for telling you you're ungrateful than it seems to me you've got the meaning of the word "bigotry" reversed.
@jayjaygee123 But, to your question: I guess if someone told me “you have a gift,” I’d just do the usual; that is, make a best guess at their intention, and react accordingly. I’d guess 99.999% of folks mean it only as an expression of good will and genuine kindness. When I tell folks what I do for a living, sometimes they respond “God bless you” (honest, I’m not BS-ing you) - obviously 100% kind-hearted. Both the “gift” and “bless” statements have neither potential for harm nor show intolerance
@jayjaygee123 I’m glad we agree on truth, reason, & science, that’s good. But, here’s what I’m thinking: Voddie’s response to these students (a) potentially harms their self concept without offering (b) a compensating, greater good. Additionally (c) his response not only displays, but models intolerance. Hence the bigotry.
I’m not asking you to agree (we may never), but I’m just wondering if this makes any sense to you (& if not, why not)
@chrismca a) Good; "Pride goes before a fall, and a haughty spirit before destruction." The most successful CEOs often surprise people; why? Because they're just normal people to talk to. Humility and a recognition of our own inabilities is worth far more than some bogus self-image.
b) The compensating greater good is the only thing that is eternal. "Store up treasures in heaven where thieves and rust do not destroy." I'm pretty sure that was addressed.
@jayjaygee123 If someone said “just don't tell me I'm wrong” we would all know them to be very intolerant. Extremely so! 2nd issue*, you wrote “by insisting he is wrong” I don’t say he’s factually wrong, I say he has no evidence. Then you wrote “you are doing the very same thing you are accusing him of” In my years of college teaching, I NEVER spoke to a student as Voddie did. NEVER. I would never do so with no evidence. His treatment of students is ethically and logically indefensible.
@chrismca I'm glad to see someone else on youtube that isn't just commenting out of rage or insult. But you have to understand; this is how the scripture speaks. Jeremiah says "The heart of man is desperately wicked above all things; who can know it?" And whenever an angel or God appears the men fall before them in fear, knowing they deserve death (ie Isaiah 6).
@chrismca The entire point of the gospel is that God is infinitely holy and will destroy all wickedness (Isaiah 1:30-31, 13:6-13), and that we are all sinners before God in need of Savior because we cannot keep the law (Mark 10:17-19). Until you realize that you cannot turn to Christ for the remission of your sin. This is how Christ taught, this is how the scripture teaches, and at the root of this man's preaching is a higher regard and love for these words than what any man thinks of him.
@jayjaygee123 b) Compensating Good; Addressed, yes. But, to actually be a good that compensates for the harm in Voddie’s student interactions, an eternal life would have to be real. To assert the eternal as the compensating good, one must first assume the eternal because there is no evidence for it; it’s a faith matter. One might have a strong, beautiful, charitable faith that helps himself and those around him, but it’s not evidence.
c) Who’s intolerant; Great point! Wish more folks got this.
@jayjaygee123 I don’t feel you insulted my intelligence at all; in fact, just the opposite. You seem to attend to my views (w/ 1 exception*), and respond with relevant views of your own. That’s no insult, that’s vigorous debate! The issues:
a) Harm; of course you’re right humility is better than bogus self-image, but healthy self image is critical to well-being (see Carl Rodgers work), and part of this is a claim to a certain minimum dignity. Voddie’s treatment of students does not respect this
@chrismca Your reply about the nature of ethics has nothing to do with the following statement: "For those who believe in God, a higher power or something larger than themselves, no explanation is necessary; for those who don't...no explanation will suffice". You've missed the point entirely. Belief in God/higher power is a matter of will and nothing else.
@idlepink17 What you must understand is that the choice to believe in a supreme being does not grant you a set of pre-made ethics. Rather, your choice to believe is personal: everything after that is following the ethics of a "given culture and era". The "Christian" ethics that Baucham advances are NOT Christian, just his interpretation what a Christian should do. They would not match the "Christian" ethics of the pre-Civil War South, which thought it was OK to have men like him as slaves.
@idlepink17 First, I think just a quick look at a basic reference on epistemology will tell you that belief (no matter the object) is not "a matter of will and nothing else." Second, think for just a moment about what the will is made of. Just a glance at an elementary book (e.g., Mook's) will show you that "the will" has multiple parts, and one of them is previous beliefs which, obviously, include ethics.
Respond if you like, but bring some facts/sources.
And you all wonder why Christianity is in decline, and why you feel singled out. You blame the world and its "wickedness", when the problem is really YOU.
For all you thoughtless people out there who think you know something because you read the Bible, or think that Baucham knows something because he stands on stage and flies into a sweaty rant about how he put someone down, you should try watching the video "Why I Hate Religion, But Love Jesus" which you can find by searching this site.
A lot of you seem to hold "my generation" in contempt. Well, if you watch that video, you'll be put in your place by someone from "my generation".
No amount of discussion (here or anywhere else) will convert anyone if they are drawn by the holy spirit! This level of conversation is just meaningless words from both sides until God softens the heart of individuals (and no I'm not talking about the heart that pumps your blood!
Anyone happen to "NOTICE" the other verses ahead of leviticus 20:13. It also speaks of other sins that are more likely more prevalent that homosexuality. Point is that judgment will come to all nonrepentive sin whether from someone saved by christ or lost to the prince of this world(Satan).
brailleGraffiti-Why are all of a sudden so interested in using scripture to defend your position that christians want to kill homosexuals (which could be farther from the truth)!
@Providential1611 You're right, that was a bit of a dig. I have some friends with degrees in theology and they too come up short on a convincing answer to this question of all powerful and all good. I am currently reading CS Lewis but I will check out Kenyon, thanks for the advice. I am also going to check out this Louie Giglio I saw in a post on here. I'm afraid Voddie's answer is yet another that has fallen short of convincing me.
@chrispalser Well Voodie's answer is short, and he is merely trying to make a couple of points. There is no exhaustive answer given. Kenyon I believe will give you a view that escapes many Theologians, but it is obviously grounded in the Scripture. The book is about $10-12.00 new, and I am excited about the idea that you would actually get it and read it. Please let me know if you do and I am interested in your input. God bless
@Providential1611 I concede I may have an ax to grind, but my mind is not made up. Which is why I viewed this video. I seek enlightenment. You say sinners avoid the truth, how does that apply to babies in the womb? If god is all powerful, how do you explain satan? My refusal to understand is due to irrelevant anecdotes posing as answers to the question. I don't question the existence of god, I question the idea of her being all good AND all powerful. The evidence appears to be to the contrary.
@chrispalser No it does not. And God is FATHER. Calling God a " her" must be your way of taking yet another dig. I suggest you read some books written by Theologians who address these things in detail. It takes some time to answer big and sometimes, comples questions. E.W. Kenyon has a great book called THE BIBLE IN THE LIGHT OUR REDEMPTION. That would help you greatly.
chrispalser-if I am to take your post serious and not a joke then I take extreme offense! You are a blasphemer against a Holy and Righteous God. You need to at least have the respect to at least spell the name of God right (notice the capital "G"). For your info I pray for anyone who is ill that I know about that would include someone with an arrogant attitude such as yourself, whether you want me to or not!
@lhsffa Glad your daughter is ok and that you have an answer, it's your fault. How selfish to only save your daughter and let the rest of the babies suffer. You are the reason babies are born with cancer? Why are you unwilling to pray and fast for them? Shame on you. Or do I go with Providential1611's answer that god is not all powerful, in fact not the only god either. Apparently satan runs the show. If god has to "battle" anything then he's a superhero, not god.
@chrispalser This is deliberate misrepresentation, false accusations and a refusal to understand what is being said. You have an ax to grind, so truth and accuracy cannot stand in your way. Your mind is made up.
Sorry brailleGraffiti but I just have to say this with some sarcasm! If there is life on other planets, then they need to accept Jesus as personal savior and repent and turn from their sins! That's what the bible says brailleGraffiti!
I didn't mention this before because I was just try to get past the 1st basics of christianity with brailleGraffiti that God is real. I personal believe the bible teaches that bad thing happen to all people (it rains on the just and the unjust) to draw them closer to God! I have two personal examples: My daughter is 12 now but was born 2 months premature! The Dr. said she had developmental problem physical and mental.
@lhsffa There is nothing funny about my post. I am genuinely interested in the answer to this question. I think I understand the Voddie's message, my point of view is not the same as other points of view. What I see as good and bad is not universal. So I reversed the question as Voddie suggested and I still don't understand why jesus would allow babies to be born crippled, sick or dead. Instead of telling me I'm heartless, answer my question.
@chrispalser You know the Bible answers your questions? Sinner typially don't like the answers. They want to pretend that sinful humanity, starting with Adam, had nothing to do with all the pain and suffering in this world. But they do. They don't want to understand that there is Devil, and Satnic Kingdom upon this earth battling against the Kingdom of God for the souls and life of mankind. Until people are ready to take the time to know the whole truth, they can't be helped
@Providential1611 I have to butt in on this one. Gotta commend you for your circularity. Your beliefs are a closed system, not unlike hardcore scientific atheists. It seems as if you have made doubt itself a sin. But does it really answer our questions? How about when it calls for the murder of homosexuals? Do you follow that to a T as well? As a thought experiment, imagine intelligent life was found on another planet. What would your Bible say then?
@brailleGraffiti The Bible does not call for the "murder" of homosexuals. Show where this is commanded to all believers at all times. As for intelligent life on another planet--they way we are going--the secular route, we are hard pressed to find it here.
@Providential1611 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." - Leviticus 20:13
@Providential1611 Very funny. You have a sense of humor, I'll give you that. But you've only used it to dodge my question. The Kepler telescope has spotted planets that are in the "habitable zone" for life to exist. This is an incredible find, and I'm sure that our space agency, if it is not hindered by a nuclear war with the RELIGIOUS nation of Iran, will discover much more that is surprising to us. Again, I pose you the question: what does your Bible say about this?
@brailleGraffiti They have been saying this for decades. If they have spotted actual planets, I'm sure they can provide photographic PROOF of these planets. Thus far, they have never provided such proof, just speculations based on other observations that require assumptions. Kinda like the "life" they have claimed to find on Mars
@brailleGraffiti I did a video response to your video response to this video. I have no "fixation" and your comment is unworthy of serious discussion. My response to you will go a long way to anyone who sees it in demonstrating who is childish. Since science is to be OBSERVABLE or experimental in some way that can be repeated,a nd since they can't even tell us what Quasars are nor explain other phenomena seen far away, spare me your credulity in such assertions.
@Providential1611 Well, now you're just talking non-sense. The results of the Kepler telescope are certainly repeatable. It is not some spooky witch craft that cannot be replicated. Its hilarious how you have no understanding of science. The fact that they don't have answers to everything doesn't prove ANYTHING. The computer that you typed your ignorant response with is not powered by the Bible, it's powered by science. Show respect for that which you do not understand.
@brailleGraffiti I undersand science better than you think. I simply do not believe that a little shimmer in the light of a star thousands or even millions of light years away "proves" a planet is there and further, that this little shimy also "proves" it could be hospitable to life! And this computer is not powered by "science", it is power by energy God provided and man utilizes. IS science some "thing"--some higher power--a god to you?
@Providential1611 Don't believe if you don't want to. I asked it as a thought experiment. I did not demand that you believed that the current evidence was conclusive, I was merely pointing to the plausibility. The question was IF it were shown conclusively, then what? Keep in mind that the IF part is not proven, and may never be proven. Again, it is a thought experiment.
@Providential1611 It's not a trick question: the Bible has no answer, and you know it. Hopefully for your sake, intelligent life outside our planet will never be found. But if it is, you have a lot of thinking ahead of you. Of course, you could deny it all as some trick of the devil, but that's just silly.
@Providential1611 Also, scientist have SPECULATED that life exists/existed on Mars, but they have never CLAIMED it. At least not the credible ones. There IS very convincing evidence that Mars at one point could have sustained life, primarily exhibited by the signs that liquid water once flowed on its surface, as well as the apparent presence of OCEANS of frozen ice beneath its surface. Please, read a BOOK. Especially if you're going to call the non-religious stupid.
@brailleGraffiti I didn't call non-religious people stupid--you must refer to my video response to you. I called the arguments you put forward as stupid, and I proved it. So again, I ask where is the evidence that the Bible commands believers to kill homosexuals? You didn't provide evidence for this, you merely asserted it. You entire video response to Voodie is like that--one erroneous assertion after another and no proof whatsoever.
@Providential1611 You're right, the Bible doesn't command it. I merely threw that verse out as a noose to see if you would hang yourself with it. You're a little smarter than that, but not smart enough to spot a gambit when you see one. The fact is, the verse is ambiguous, and requires a lot of knowledge external to the Bible to interpret. But it certainly isn't a stretch to think that it could be used as an incitement for murder.
@Providential1611 The verse from Leviticus. There has been a flood of posts, I'm not surprised you missed it. You might want to step a few pages back, it's still there.
@Providential1611 Here it is again, in case you have trouble finding it.
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." - Leviticus 20:13
@Providential1611 It is nor more erroneous or "assertive" than anything Baucham says. If you understand this, you've made it half way. The next step is to start thinking for yourself.
@brailleGraffiti I wan "thinking for myself" long before you were born. I am 46. Voodie asked a questions that has a built-in-premise--like the ones college students ask. Except Voodie's premise is far more logical, intuitive and demonstrable than theirs.
@brailleGraffiti And college student don't offer heat rather than substance???
Voodie's premise is logical, unlike the college student, who believes NOTHING exploded and created everything in the perfect symmetry and ingredients for all the life and things we enjoy. Some theorists posit prior to the Big Bang was this "singularity". Ah yes--THAT. GOD. Paintings are proof for a painter, building prove there was a builder and the universe screams GOD!
@Providential1611 You're making a lot of assumptions about me. I make assumptions too, but at least they are based on what others have said. I never said that I believed that the universe was created from "nothing". In fact, I believe that I said that I was agnostic, on a personal level. I just know that my subjective experiences are not verifiable, so I don't put a lot of stock in them when it comes to convincing others.
@brailleGraffiti I didn't say you believed in the Big Bang, but many college students do and argue from this UNPROVEN and logically absurd presupposition. Voodie's is better in every way
@Providential1611 It is better for answering the subjective. But compared to science, that is no competition: science ignores the subjective. When compared to other philosophies and religions, INCLUDING less extreme versions of Christianity, Baucham's answer is, as I said in my video, CRAP.
@Providential1611 If you are following the comments that I am making in the other video, you will know that I believe that science can only deal with the objective. It is TERRIFYINGLY effective at this, and thus cannot be ignored or brushed aside. However, it is so far useless when it comes to the subjective, which is where religion and philosophy come in.
@Providential1611 The lack of acknowledgement of the subjective does leave an enormous hole, but it does not instantly default to Christianity as the ONLY answer for the subjective. There are MYRIAD other religions, many of which are equally, if not MORE convincing.
@brailleGraffiti LOL! You mean those polytheistic ones where the "gods" are more wicked than even people have been??? If there is a God, and transcndant Being who made it all, it is OBVIOUS that the Christian understanding and description of Him is the only logical, rational and believable that squares with what we see, know, experience and understand morally. Only an Omnipotent, Omniscient, Everlasting and Personal God could have made all things.
@Providential1611 First of all, I don't understand your notion of "wickedness". Second, your religion is based of Judaism off of which it establishes its entire moral foundation. So don't act like your the only show out there with "tough" moral standards. Do not underestimate the faiths of others, and do not think that your loud proclamations of "wickedness" scare me. I may be young, and you may be much older than me, but your invocation of fear is not convincing.
@brailleGraffiti wickedness as in immoral, corrupt, petty, selfish, cruel--surely you understand that and how it would be impossible for such wicked traits to exist in any "god". Therefore the religions that posit such ideas are clearly fables. Also, we don't deny Christianity is from Judaism Christ said "salvation is of the Jews". Christianity is the FULFILLMENT of the Jewish promises to that nation to bless the whole world.
@Providential1611 You seem to have a lot of anger at the recent marginalization of Christianity by secular forces. For this, I cannot blame you. But you lack the perspective to see the bigger picture, and you seem unable to appreciate the views of others. You think that Christianity is Righteous, and religions such as Judaism and Islam are somehow not? Please, sometimes age can blind a person.
@brailleGraffiti You know that I believe the ENITIRE Old Testament is the Word of God? Surely you know I follow the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? As far as Islam--apparently you haven't studied its writings, history or the wicked, immoral life of its founder, the polygamist and pedophile Mohammed. No, Islam has no true righteousness or vitue in it--simply racism, hate, intolerance and utter falsehoods along with sexual perversion.
@Providential1611 Second, you exhibit little faith in Christ to follow through with his plan. If indeed this world is wicked, and we are in a wicked time, then this is what He intended. Yet you think that your indignation changes this? Think again. Why would you want to steer the world off the course that He has planned? Step aside: Christ is bigger than you. Don't underestimate him either.
@brailleGraffiti No, things are not going along with what he intends. He intends for all men to repent and follow Him, but many will not, preferring their sinful ways instead. Most of what happens on planet earth now is not His will. His will shall be accomplished on this earth one Day, but woe to the unrepentant and wicked when He comes. It will be too late.
@Providential1611 As for the Polytheistic religions such as Hinduism, yes, their Gods are modeled closely after human behavior. I don't see why this is wicked and contemptible, its just different.
@brailleGraffiti Then they are no "gods" worthy of our worship, obedience, nor should we emulate them. If they aren't morally superior to sinful humanity, they are no gods!
@Providential1611 That's your perspective, and I can appreciate that. But it's not the only perspective. And that's ONLY polytheism. What do you feel about Islam and Judaism?
@brailleGraffiti Buddism denies the existence of a personal God and claims man is worthless. Not so in the Bible! I'll take a Buddist over Islam any day! At least they don't try and "kill the infidels"! I have to go to bed. Take your time with my video. I am not looking for a knee-jerk reaction or rebuttal. I hope it makes you think deeply. Good night braille
@Providential1611 You have a hopelessly limited understanding of such technology if you think that photographs are necessary for "proof". I'm no physicist, but I know that the Kepler telescope does not visually "spot" these planets, but uses some method to detect the gravitational effects that these planets exert on the stars they orbit. This can, in fact, be FAR more accurate than a "photograph". Your fixation on visual proof is almost childish. Read books, and not ones with pictures.
@chrispalser As i posted earlier, my daughter was said to have had mental and physical disabilities. we were not concerned about the physical as much as the mental. I fasted and prayed (without anyone knowing not even my wife that i was doing this) for the week before the MRI. the results came back and NOTHING not any sign of mental disabilities. the dr. said he could not explain because there was clearly something wrong. my wife and i knew what the answer was.
Have you heard of Louie Giglio? Either way if you could find the time to watch the "Indescribable" and "How Great is our God" messages he delivered a few years ago, it is well worth the view!
@lhsffa With respect to Louie Giglio, I watched his video Indescribable, and I'm not surprised that a Christian wonders at the universe. It's certainly a more appropriate attitude than fear and self hate if you believe in an omnipotent God. He offers a MUCH better explanation of why "bad things" happen than Baucham's hot air. If only more Christians were like him, I would have nothing to complain about, but I'm still an atheist ;)
Believe it or not I don't look at them as arguments at all! I look at them as intense theological discussion! If I may be so bold as to ask: How many times has someone sincerely (with love) shared the gospel of Jesus with you?
@lhsffa Many times. In fact, as I have said before, my parents were and are Christian (although you could say that they are now non-practicing). Although, I suppose that if they and other Christians around me had been more gentle and sincere, as you say, then I might be a Christian now. But I'm thankful that they weren't, because there is so much that I would have never seen nor learned if I was.
@lhsffa And who knows? I may still come around yet, I'm just waiting for someone to convince me. I'm sorry that wasn't you, it seems like you are genuinely concerned with saving me.
Oh I feel this conversation is more about you than me! And YES I still defend Voddie Baucham! I will keep the theological beliefs I have and tell everyone with earshot! Your convictions are between you and (Guess Who) GOD! Thank you for some great conversation! We can agree to disagree! I still contend that you are very intelligent and "a thinkin man"
@lhsffa Well, me likewise. It's simply a difference in perspective, which is healthy. If you choose to listen to him, in spite of everything I've said, then I suppose their is not much more that I could say to change your mind. But hopefully you will continue to think about what I said.
I'm gonna share a story with you! I'm a high school science teacher! One student can to me crying (a christian student) saying that her previous class was having a conversation about salvation. One student admitted that he was an atheist! At that comment the entire class bombarded the student with hateful comments about how stupid he was for being an atheist (even the teacher got in on it)! It made the student cry!
@lhsffa Maybe I am that student, and I have come to exact vengeance ;) But yes, you have a very valid point, and this is precisely what I am trying to say! That we shouldn't treat people with such disdain, when we have made such little effort to understand them. Based on your argument with me, I would say that you appear to be a true Christian, since I've put on some pretty scary arguments, and done everything that I could to shake you, and it hasn't phased you.
@lhsffa But don't be complacent in your faith! There is still much to learn, and you shouldn't be afraid of scary arguments, for though you may walk through the valley of the shadow of death, you will fear no evil. :)
So we are born sick and commanded to be well under the threat of eternal damnation? Doesn't sound like much of a choice to me. THEN WHY ARE WE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION!
@lhsffa We are having this conversation because you came to defend an indefensible argument, put forth by a Voddie Baucham. Have you forgotten? I would also hope that you are personally learning something about the futility of forcing your world view onto others, that would be my primary goal. If you are aware of this, then yes, I do not know why we are having this conversation any more.
You are correct in one instance! Yes homosexuals were part of the "Sodom and Gomorrah" destruction! The point is God gave them an out, they could have turned from their behavior and prevented everything that happened! I myself have family in similar sinful situations, if you were one of them standing before me now and asked will you support me in this lifestyle, I would have to say absolutely not! Would I continue to love you, YES! I do not apologize for my belief or my stand in this matter!
@lhsffa I can respect your attitude toward homosexuality, just don't force it on anyone. I like how this conversation has become more about you than Baucham. Given up defending him, have we?
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." - Leviticus 20:13
Why would dare compare "The God" to allah! You my friend need to read a few more books to distinguish between the two! Allah teaches that you and I are infidels and should be killed for our belief. The holy and righteous God of the bible teaches that all mankind has an opportunity to come to saving knowledge and the no man should perish. Hell was not created for you and I only for satan and his demons. We, through non belief of Jesus Christ, send ourselves!
@lhsffa No my friend, your Holy Bible calls for homosexuals to be murdered. How do you know I am not one of them? And when your Christian brothers sacked Jerusalem in the Crusades, the streets were said to be knee high with blood. When the Muslims retook it, they simply let the Christians leave. The fanaticism you see in Islam is only a RECENT development, just as the compassion in Christianity is only a RECENT development.
@lhsffa Your narrow view of Islam only proves that it is you who need to read more books, especially your own Bible. Islam was once a VERY compassionate religion, and still is to many people.
@lhsffa "We, through non belief of Jesus Christ, send ourselves!" So we are born sick and commanded to be well under the threat of eternal damnation? Doesn't sound like much of a choice to me.
Any empire that makes Crucifixion a routine spectacle needs to be confronted, and Jesus certainly did that. Although, what he put in it's place turned out to be not much better (recall the Salem witch trials).
Other gods are dead! D E A D as in not living as in have not resurrected themselves, therefore why would someone put all their faith in a dead god or prophet! Your response to this will go something like this, "Prove that Jesus resurrected himself from the grave" and to that I will say, "Prove that he didn't"!
Other gods are dead! D E A D as in not living as in have not resurrected themselves, therefore why would someone put all their faith in a dead god or prophet! Your response to this will go something like this, "Prove that Jesus resurrected himself from the grave" and to that I will say, "Prove that he didn't"!
@lhsffa Again, getting better, but still not there. I don't need to "prove" that Jesus DIDN'T rise from the dead, I simply need to SHOW you how such a belief could arise, which is why I compared him to Socrates (and it's probably why jaredduba deleted my comment). The hole of doubt that it causes is sufficient.
@lhsffa Also, other Gods, particularly the God of Islam, are based off of the same God as Christianity (which is ultimately based off of Judaism). It was only Jesus who came up with the silly idea that God needs to come to Earth and be killed in order to rise from the dead. The other Gods aren't dead, they simply never wasted their time taking human form. Perhaps this is why the Christian god is so appealing to some, because he took the time to be Human.
@lhsffa But it's also precisely because of that reason that it is unappealing to Islam: it reeks of polytheism. God is in two places at once, experiencing different things, and thinking different thoughts. Surely, this is just a weaker version of polytheism, if not the genuine article.
@lhsffa I would respond to you're Islamic critics that they are too narrow minded. But I also think you are too narrow minded in you're belief that Jesus could only be the Son of God, and not a clever individual with an agenda. Of course there is C.S. Lewis' liar, lunatic, or messiah argument, which I don't think is compelling. He excludes the possibility that Jesus was neither, but simply an intelligent person who wanted to challenge the debauchery of Rome, but had no authority to do so.
One of my Art History teachers was a Christian, and based on his lectures, he probably could have danced circles around me in an argument, though we never did get into this discussion. Baucham might be able to as well, but only by slick use of public speaking skills, like a used car salesman luring an unsuspecting customer into buying a lemon.
Don't abandon your faith, cling to it. Intuition is often far more powerful than rational thought. That is why I do not dismiss Christianity: I may be wrong about it, and it may surprise me one day. But for crying out loud, THINK ABOUT IT!
brailleGraffiti you said," I never claimed the Bible wasn't true." So are you saying that it is true? And I beg to differ on the comment about jesus being meek and mild! Jesus flew in the face of the most intelligent religious leaders and philosophers of that time! Answer this question,"why do many people paint jesus as a "you can use me as a door mat because I'm meek and mild" man!
lhsffa 8 hours ago
chrismca are you saying that "no evidence" means christians have a blind faith! Yes or No!
lhsffa 8 hours ago
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@jayjaygee123 I cannot speak for chrismca, but I absolutely am tolerant of Christianity. If you paid any attention to what I've said, I find it to be decent worldview, and take no particular offense to it in and of itself. I do not get up on a stage and work myself into a sweat while ranting about how Christians deserve anyone's "wrath" (like some people). You need to stop with your 1984 double-thinking and pay more attention to what's actually going on.
brailleGraffiti 12 hours ago
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brailleGraffiti 12 hours ago
@jayjaygee123 What you are accusing chrismca (and me by proxy, since I agree with him) is utter nonsense. Baucham did not tell me I was wrong, he told a defenseless student with "one semester of philosophy". I love being told I'm wrong, especially when it reveals a serious error in my thinking. I enjoy debate, and welcome it whenever I have the chance. What Baucham did was not a "debate". He is a loud mouthed, arrogant, superficial, and self-inflated charlatan, undeserving of the title "Dr".
brailleGraffiti 12 hours ago
@brailleGraffiti Who's arrogant: the one who stands on something outside his own authority or the one who claims he knows something isn't true because it doesn't make sense to him? What he has said can be found filling the pages of scripture which are self-authenticating and claim to be the word of God. You have a problem with it sounding arrogant? Take it up with God; Baucham's just telling you what He already said.
jayjaygee123 11 hours ago
@jayjaygee123 I never claimed the Bible wasn't true. I merely pointed out that his attitude is contradictory to the teachings of Jesus, who preached meekness and compassion. If there is a Christian God, He probably won't be very happy with Baucham. I do not have to plea my case to Him: if He exists, He already knows and I respect that he will act accordingly. I have a personal disbelief in the Christian Bible, but by no means do I force it on anyone else. You are grasping at straws now.
brailleGraffiti 11 hours ago
@brailleGraffiti ...Let me get this straight; the one who has a personal disbelief in the God of the bible, the only True and Living God, the Lord of Hosts who does not lie according to His own word, is telling me, the Christian commenting on a Christian video, what this God teaches and who He is. And I'm the one grasping at straws?...little arrogant don't you think?
jayjaygee123 10 hours ago
@jayjaygee123 So proof by authority it is then? So far you have both proven unqualified to speak about your own religion. Seeing as how I have read the Bible, and clearly paid more attention to theological questions than you, I have condescended to your level and tried to share some knowledge with you. You see, I like to use reason, not hysteria and gut feelings to make my point. This may seem revolutionary to you, but I assure you, I am nothing special.
brailleGraffiti 10 hours ago
@brailleGraffiti Aww; well thank you for being so humble. I love it when smart people condescend to my ignorant level and teach me a subject they utterly reject.
Seeing as you're so much higher than me in the field of understanding I suppose there's nothing more I can offer you. But since the question is on authority go look at Mark 11:27-33 and see if you agree with the Pharisees' sentiment.
jayjaygee123 21 minutes ago
@brailleGraffiti Read Luke 13:1-9 if you want to hear Jesus' thoughts on seemingly meaningless deaths. He also says through Isaiah "Behold, the day of the Lord comes, cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate; and he will destroy its sinners from it." And through John, "Whoever's name is not found in the book will be cast into the lake of fire." That is why for your sake He cries out "Come to me all you who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest." He will act
jayjaygee123 10 hours ago
@jayjaygee123 You don't even comprehend your own Bible verses. Jesus was not being dismissive and arrogant like Baucham, and even if he was, he is JESUS, the Son of Almighty God. Baucham has no authority to talk of fire and brimstone, since as Jesus said, he is no better than anyone else. You must first remove the beam from your own eye before you pick the splinter out of your brother's. See what I mean?
brailleGraffiti 10 hours ago
@brailleGraffiti Of course I see what you mean; you don't understand the scriptures. You willfully cut and choose to hear only what you want to hear. I'm pretty sure "Unless you repent you will also likewise perish" is a pretty dismissive thing to say to someone when they ask why Jews were killed in such a horrid fashion. Thank you, btw, for totally overlooking that passage (Luke 13:1-9). I love being ignored so you can set up a straw man.
jayjaygee123 21 minutes ago
@jayjaygee123 The meek shall inherit the Earth, not sweaty, well paid Baptist preachers on stage in a mega-church with thousands of mindless applauding fans.
brailleGraffiti 10 hours ago
@brailleGraffiti Yes, and Moses was so meek in insisting that everyone obeyed the words he wrote because he was recording the Law of God. You don't understand anything; Romans 1:18-23 is an apt description. Of course 1st Corinthians 1:18 is too.
But as far as this discussion is concerned I'm done. May you go in grace.
jayjaygee123 21 minutes ago
I appreciate this. God really does love us - He truly is patient always & His love does not keep a record of our sins.
duchesssarah81 2 days ago
"I hate the builders of dungeons in the air... Ascending souls congratulate each other on the admirable harmonies of the world." - Ralph Waldo Emmerson
brailleGraffiti 2 days ago
@braille and chrismca If Voddie bothers you guys so much, why do you torture yourselves? Isn't the universe big enough for whatever fictions (in your view) people want to fabricate? In your view, nothing ultimately matters anyway, and all of this "argumentation" is pointless theatre.
idlepink17 2 days ago
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brailleGraffiti 2 days ago
@idlepink17 It seems to me that you find philosophical discussions distasteful, annoying, boring, and tedious, which is EXACTLY your problem. You want to go about your foolish ways unchallenged, without ever facing any difficult questions.
As for chrismca, yeah, I don't even know what he's on about with his "orthogonal" this and "orthogonal" that. I never heard that word used in a sentence. Doesn't mean that he's not using it correctly, and that you should ignore it. Again, don't be shallow.
brailleGraffiti 2 days ago
@idlepink17 This is what philosophy is really about: having a discussion. Haven't you ever read a Socratic dialogue? A book by Nietzsche? Kierkegaard? It's certainly not about getting all sweaty in front of a crowd of people while they applaud your big, "scary" tirades about hell and the "evil" of man.
And if the only thing separating you from the belief that this world is "all theatre" (or in short, NIHILISM), is your belief in Jesus, then I think you are in desperate need of some philosophy.
brailleGraffiti 2 days ago
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@idlepink17 I'm honestly not torturing myself, and if you think that I do not thoroughly enjoy discussing philosophical issues with people (regardless of what they are), you are sadly, SADLY, mistaken about me. In fact, I've had the chance to apply many of the ideas of Nietzsche, as well as other philosophers I have only read about, to an actual conversation. My successes and failures in this discussion have made me a better philosophy student.
brailleGraffiti 2 days ago
@braille What good would a belief in God be if it wasn't a choice? Point to ponder.
idlepink17 2 days ago
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brailleGraffiti 2 days ago
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@idlepink17 @idlepink17 As for your question "What good would a belief in God be if it wasn't a choice?", the answer is that it would be worthless. Which is EXACTLY what Baucham wants. Don't believe in God because you've taken philosophy and discovered that it's the best way to live your life. Philosophy will mess you up! It's all just a bunch of "big" pompous words! Don't "choose", listen to Baucham! He knows the way! He's been there!
What a bunch of bulls***.
brailleGraffiti 2 days ago
This guy's a charismatic speaker like Hitler and Stalin. Also, he's just as bad by condemning people without even knowing them.
I bet If he wasn't a pastor everyone would think he's crazy.
TheSnoop105 3 days ago
@TheSnoop105 In risk of looking like a hypocrite and coming to the defense of someone who I think is a jackass, Baucham is by no means comparable to Hitler or Stalin. You are seriously misguided if you think this. Both of those men were profoundly manipulative and malicious (I would say "evil", but I don't really believe in that), and wielded way more power than Baucham could ever dream of. Baucham is at worst a little intolerant and superficial. Let's not make a mountain out of a mole hill.
brailleGraffiti 3 days ago
@brailleGraffiti I respect your response. We need to have more people like you on Youtube. Cheers.
TheSnoop105 3 days ago
@TheSnoop105 Thanks. Baucham is also far too educated in "modern ways" (which he simultaneously condemns) to ever be as cruel or thoughtless as Hitler or Stalin.
brailleGraffiti 3 days ago
If Baucham took more than a semester of philosophy himself, he might know these things. If he did, then he is simply a manipulator, and you better "pray" that he has your best interests in mind.
brailleGraffiti 5 days ago
Again, watch the video "Why I Love Jesus, But Hate Religion".
brailleGraffiti 5 days ago
If you follow Baucham, you are not being Christian, you are just following a set of doctrines that Dr. Baucham has prescribed to you from HIS interpretation of the Bible. Any TRUE Christian knows that the ONLY thing that makes you Christian is a personal relationship with Christ. Everything that follows after that is a footnote, and is inconsequential. Following a set of "Christian" ethics is merely a transient sign of obedience, the ethics are NOT what makes you Christian.
brailleGraffiti 5 days ago
New Video Description: "Voddie Baucham dodges the age old question, 'if God is so powerful and good, why do bad things happen?' Simply because no one can answer that."
xLDFALCONx 1 week ago
Just like a politician. Dodge the a legitimate question, and speak about something else. There is no god and that is why things happen they way they happen.
therussianredstar 1 week ago
What is this buffoon doing on a college campus? Colleges are dedicated to the pursuit of the truth, and this fool won't answer a student's question unless they put it in a form that he can deal with! Then he "answers" with a bunch of guilt-filled, superstition that he could never defend in an honest, logical debate! If he needs a wrathful, condemning, sky-daddy to make sense of the world, then let him deal with his own deficits himself. What "college" would host this foul, bullying poltroon?
chrismca 1 week ago
brailleGraffiti-not sure what your point is, the video "why I hate religion" pretty much hits the nail on the ole proverbial head (just like JESUS)! No one ever said if we keep the "law" or if we're "religious" enough we all go to heaven. Bottom line is, I'm religious because I do something everyday the same way but will it send me to heaven (I don't think so)! brailleGraffiti gotta do better than that!
lhsffa 1 week ago
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@lhsffa I was responding to some of the things that Providential1611 said in his response videos, not in particular to anything here, but I felt that it was more relevant to this video than ones that he posted and that more people would see it (he also blocked me from posting in his videos, which is petty).
brailleGraffiti 1 week ago
Oh and did I mention, TIM TEBOW is right also! Just sayin!
lhsffa 2 weeks ago
Its almost 8:00pm and I'm reading the post from this video! Ohhhhh and I'm also watching a documentary on guess who, TIM TEBOW! Ha ha ha!
lhsffa 2 weeks ago
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"No amount of discussion (here or anywhere else) will convert anyone if they are drawn by the holy spirit! This level of conversation is just meaningless words from both sides until God softens the heart of individuals (and no I'm not talking about the heart that pumps your blood!)"
Not sure why this reasonable observation was marked as spam, but it's soooo offensive that I re-posted it as "found art". Cheers.
idlepink17 2 weeks ago
***For those who believe in God, a higher power or something larger than themselves, no explanation is necessary; for those who don't... no explanation will suffice.***
idlepink17 2 weeks ago
@idlepink17 I think what you've quoted here, at first, sounds good but if you really think about the 2nd part, I don't think it's true. Many sources will tell you that nonbelievers understand good, evil, & suffering (even that biblically described as caused or approved by god) based on the study of ethics.
Example: the biblical approval of slavery is considered unethical by nonbelievers based on the human solidarity principle- and this principle is sufficient to support this ethical conclusion.
chrismca 1 week ago
@chrismca Which quote are you referring to? Sorry, but ethics was not something mentioned in either statement. 'Ethics' is tangential, but separate argument/discussion from a whether or not an individual possesses (or not) a desire/will to believe.
idlepink17 1 week ago
@idlepink17 What do you mean "which quote?" The one I responded to, "For those who believe in god...." Isn't it a quote of someone else's work, or are you claiming that it's original?
As to ethics: ethics are central to a discussion of one's chosen beliefs because beliefs, in part, drive actions. For example, again, taking human beings as slaves; or, shamefully telling college students to have a negative self-concept.
chrismca 1 week ago
@chrismca 1) The statement I quoted is an old saying, not necessary to footnote.
2) As for ethics, these "chosen beliefs" to which you refer are a *separate* issue from belief in a supreme being. One can live an "ethical" life (whatever that means in a given culture and era) and have no belief whatsoever in a supreme being; conversely, one can believe in God and live a completely UNethical life according to whatever standards that rule the day. One does not predicate the other.
idlepink17 6 days ago
@idlepink17 About 1) Good, now you know "which quote."
2) Of course chosen beliefs and supernatural beings are separate in the examples you've given, they're orthogonal! (BTW, the bellowing bag of bullshit in this video is a perfect example of an unethical believer.)
But what about when a chosen belief in a supernatural deity and ethics are not orthogonal?
Again, respond if you want, but with facts with sources.
chrismca 5 days ago
@chrismca WHAT are you going on about? You sound exactly like someone who "took a semester of philosophy" because you like spewing $10 words that are designed to impress (but it's clear you have a loose understanding of what you're trying to convey).
Basically, it sounds like you believe that a belief necessitates certain action(s). Wrong and naive. And who are you to demand "facts with sources" when you don't provide any yourself (and why would these be germane to the conversation?)
idlepink17 2 days ago
@idlepink17 3) You claim I “demand facts with sources"’
-Wrong, I demanded nothing. I wrote “Respond if you like” This also escapes you?
4) You claim I “don't provide any” facts with sources.
-Wrong, I cited the fact “that the will has multiple parts” and suggest you consult sources like a “reference on epistemology” or Mook’s book
Discussion containing facts & sources is better & more helpful to understanding. So unless you can “bring something to the table” that’s at least accurate, so long
chrismca 1 day ago
@idlepink17 You can’t respond rationally to any of my points, so you try to just attack me instead?
Ok, how did you do?
1) You claim that I “like spewing $10 words”
Is a decent vocabulary truly beyond you? As for mine, see Mark Twain’s1988 quote about “the right word.”
Also, you’ve caused me to suspect your reading comprehension skills:
2) You claim that I think “a belief necessitates certain action”
Wrong, I wrote “beliefs, in part, drive actions.” So, is the concept “in part” also beyond you?
chrismca 1 day ago
@chrismca What exactly do you find so offensively "unethical" about Voddie that would cause you to react with enough venom to call him a "bellowing bag of bullshit"? He really must scare you...seriously, and no offense intended, but that's a pretty emotional knee-jerk rxn.
idlepink17 2 days ago
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chrismca 1 day ago
@idlepink17 Here’s how Voddie’s unethical: Years of teaching at universities made me love their commitment to truth, reason, and science. I also love and value things these principles give humankind (medicines, etc) So when I hear Voddie speak this way to students based on nothing more than his supernatural beliefs, I feel contempt and scorn (not fear) based on my years (no knee-jerk) on campus. Attitudes like his befoul colleges, and no institution worthy of the title should allow such bigotry.
chrismca 1 day ago
@chrismca I'd agree with you on truth, reason and science all being good principles, but apparently we'd disagree on where these come from. Tell me; does it befoul someone's character to tell them "you have a gift" when referring to their area of expertise? Is this not a compliment? If you really feel a man is a bigot for telling you you're ungrateful than it seems to me you've got the meaning of the word "bigotry" reversed.
jayjaygee123 1 day ago
@jayjaygee123 But, to your question: I guess if someone told me “you have a gift,” I’d just do the usual; that is, make a best guess at their intention, and react accordingly. I’d guess 99.999% of folks mean it only as an expression of good will and genuine kindness. When I tell folks what I do for a living, sometimes they respond “God bless you” (honest, I’m not BS-ing you) - obviously 100% kind-hearted. Both the “gift” and “bless” statements have neither potential for harm nor show intolerance
chrismca 14 hours ago
@jayjaygee123 I’m glad we agree on truth, reason, & science, that’s good. But, here’s what I’m thinking: Voddie’s response to these students (a) potentially harms their self concept without offering (b) a compensating, greater good. Additionally (c) his response not only displays, but models intolerance. Hence the bigotry.
I’m not asking you to agree (we may never), but I’m just wondering if this makes any sense to you (& if not, why not)
chrismca 14 hours ago
@chrismca a) Good; "Pride goes before a fall, and a haughty spirit before destruction." The most successful CEOs often surprise people; why? Because they're just normal people to talk to. Humility and a recognition of our own inabilities is worth far more than some bogus self-image.
b) The compensating greater good is the only thing that is eternal. "Store up treasures in heaven where thieves and rust do not destroy." I'm pretty sure that was addressed.
jayjaygee123 13 hours ago
@jayjaygee123 If someone said “just don't tell me I'm wrong” we would all know them to be very intolerant. Extremely so! 2nd issue*, you wrote “by insisting he is wrong” I don’t say he’s factually wrong, I say he has no evidence. Then you wrote “you are doing the very same thing you are accusing him of” In my years of college teaching, I NEVER spoke to a student as Voddie did. NEVER. I would never do so with no evidence. His treatment of students is ethically and logically indefensible.
chrismca 9 hours ago
@chrismca I'm glad to see someone else on youtube that isn't just commenting out of rage or insult. But you have to understand; this is how the scripture speaks. Jeremiah says "The heart of man is desperately wicked above all things; who can know it?" And whenever an angel or God appears the men fall before them in fear, knowing they deserve death (ie Isaiah 6).
jayjaygee123 9 minutes ago
@chrismca The entire point of the gospel is that God is infinitely holy and will destroy all wickedness (Isaiah 1:30-31, 13:6-13), and that we are all sinners before God in need of Savior because we cannot keep the law (Mark 10:17-19). Until you realize that you cannot turn to Christ for the remission of your sin. This is how Christ taught, this is how the scripture teaches, and at the root of this man's preaching is a higher regard and love for these words than what any man thinks of him.
jayjaygee123 2 minutes ago
@jayjaygee123 b) Compensating Good; Addressed, yes. But, to actually be a good that compensates for the harm in Voddie’s student interactions, an eternal life would have to be real. To assert the eternal as the compensating good, one must first assume the eternal because there is no evidence for it; it’s a faith matter. One might have a strong, beautiful, charitable faith that helps himself and those around him, but it’s not evidence.
c) Who’s intolerant; Great point! Wish more folks got this.
chrismca 9 hours ago
@jayjaygee123 I don’t feel you insulted my intelligence at all; in fact, just the opposite. You seem to attend to my views (w/ 1 exception*), and respond with relevant views of your own. That’s no insult, that’s vigorous debate! The issues:
a) Harm; of course you’re right humility is better than bogus self-image, but healthy self image is critical to well-being (see Carl Rodgers work), and part of this is a claim to a certain minimum dignity. Voddie’s treatment of students does not respect this
chrismca 9 hours ago
@chrismca Your reply about the nature of ethics has nothing to do with the following statement: "For those who believe in God, a higher power or something larger than themselves, no explanation is necessary; for those who don't...no explanation will suffice". You've missed the point entirely. Belief in God/higher power is a matter of will and nothing else.
idlepink17 6 days ago
@idlepink17 What you must understand is that the choice to believe in a supreme being does not grant you a set of pre-made ethics. Rather, your choice to believe is personal: everything after that is following the ethics of a "given culture and era". The "Christian" ethics that Baucham advances are NOT Christian, just his interpretation what a Christian should do. They would not match the "Christian" ethics of the pre-Civil War South, which thought it was OK to have men like him as slaves.
brailleGraffiti 5 days ago
@idlepink17 I also want to note that I agree with you so far, I'm just making the assumption that you still agree with Baucham.
brailleGraffiti 5 days ago
@idlepink17 First, I think just a quick look at a basic reference on epistemology will tell you that belief (no matter the object) is not "a matter of will and nothing else." Second, think for just a moment about what the will is made of. Just a glance at an elementary book (e.g., Mook's) will show you that "the will" has multiple parts, and one of them is previous beliefs which, obviously, include ethics.
Respond if you like, but bring some facts/sources.
chrismca 5 days ago
@chrismca Oh my gosh...roll eyes. Either you want to believe or you don't. End of story. It's really that easy.
idlepink17 2 days ago
And you all wonder why Christianity is in decline, and why you feel singled out. You blame the world and its "wickedness", when the problem is really YOU.
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
For all you thoughtless people out there who think you know something because you read the Bible, or think that Baucham knows something because he stands on stage and flies into a sweaty rant about how he put someone down, you should try watching the video "Why I Hate Religion, But Love Jesus" which you can find by searching this site.
A lot of you seem to hold "my generation" in contempt. Well, if you watch that video, you'll be put in your place by someone from "my generation".
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
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No amount of discussion (here or anywhere else) will convert anyone if they are drawn by the holy spirit! This level of conversation is just meaningless words from both sides until God softens the heart of individuals (and no I'm not talking about the heart that pumps your blood!
lhsffa 2 weeks ago 2
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Anyone happen to "NOTICE" the other verses ahead of leviticus 20:13. It also speaks of other sins that are more likely more prevalent that homosexuality. Point is that judgment will come to all nonrepentive sin whether from someone saved by christ or lost to the prince of this world(Satan).
lhsffa 2 weeks ago
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*couldn't be farther from the truth"
lhsffa 2 weeks ago
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brailleGraffiti-Why are all of a sudden so interested in using scripture to defend your position that christians want to kill homosexuals (which could be farther from the truth)!
lhsffa 2 weeks ago
@Providential1611 You're right, that was a bit of a dig. I have some friends with degrees in theology and they too come up short on a convincing answer to this question of all powerful and all good. I am currently reading CS Lewis but I will check out Kenyon, thanks for the advice. I am also going to check out this Louie Giglio I saw in a post on here. I'm afraid Voddie's answer is yet another that has fallen short of convincing me.
chrispalser 2 weeks ago
@chrispalser Well Voodie's answer is short, and he is merely trying to make a couple of points. There is no exhaustive answer given. Kenyon I believe will give you a view that escapes many Theologians, but it is obviously grounded in the Scripture. The book is about $10-12.00 new, and I am excited about the idea that you would actually get it and read it. Please let me know if you do and I am interested in your input. God bless
Providential1611 2 weeks ago
@Providential1611 I concede I may have an ax to grind, but my mind is not made up. Which is why I viewed this video. I seek enlightenment. You say sinners avoid the truth, how does that apply to babies in the womb? If god is all powerful, how do you explain satan? My refusal to understand is due to irrelevant anecdotes posing as answers to the question. I don't question the existence of god, I question the idea of her being all good AND all powerful. The evidence appears to be to the contrary.
chrispalser 2 weeks ago
@chrispalser No it does not. And God is FATHER. Calling God a " her" must be your way of taking yet another dig. I suggest you read some books written by Theologians who address these things in detail. It takes some time to answer big and sometimes, comples questions. E.W. Kenyon has a great book called THE BIBLE IN THE LIGHT OUR REDEMPTION. That would help you greatly.
Providential1611 2 weeks ago
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Apparently Satan runs chrispalser show!
lhsffa 2 weeks ago
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chrispalser-if I am to take your post serious and not a joke then I take extreme offense! You are a blasphemer against a Holy and Righteous God. You need to at least have the respect to at least spell the name of God right (notice the capital "G"). For your info I pray for anyone who is ill that I know about that would include someone with an arrogant attitude such as yourself, whether you want me to or not!
lhsffa 2 weeks ago
@lhsffa Glad your daughter is ok and that you have an answer, it's your fault. How selfish to only save your daughter and let the rest of the babies suffer. You are the reason babies are born with cancer? Why are you unwilling to pray and fast for them? Shame on you. Or do I go with Providential1611's answer that god is not all powerful, in fact not the only god either. Apparently satan runs the show. If god has to "battle" anything then he's a superhero, not god.
chrispalser 2 weeks ago
@chrispalser This is deliberate misrepresentation, false accusations and a refusal to understand what is being said. You have an ax to grind, so truth and accuracy cannot stand in your way. Your mind is made up.
Providential1611 2 weeks ago
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Sorry brailleGraffiti but I just have to say this with some sarcasm! If there is life on other planets, then they need to accept Jesus as personal savior and repent and turn from their sins! That's what the bible says brailleGraffiti!
lhsffa 2 weeks ago
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I didn't mention this before because I was just try to get past the 1st basics of christianity with brailleGraffiti that God is real. I personal believe the bible teaches that bad thing happen to all people (it rains on the just and the unjust) to draw them closer to God! I have two personal examples: My daughter is 12 now but was born 2 months premature! The Dr. said she had developmental problem physical and mental.
lhsffa 2 weeks ago
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chrispalser- with all due respect I read your first post and jumped to the conclusion that it was sarcasm! If I misjudged, I apologize!
lhsffa 2 weeks ago
@lhsffa There is nothing funny about my post. I am genuinely interested in the answer to this question. I think I understand the Voddie's message, my point of view is not the same as other points of view. What I see as good and bad is not universal. So I reversed the question as Voddie suggested and I still don't understand why jesus would allow babies to be born crippled, sick or dead. Instead of telling me I'm heartless, answer my question.
chrispalser 2 weeks ago
@chrispalser You know the Bible answers your questions? Sinner typially don't like the answers. They want to pretend that sinful humanity, starting with Adam, had nothing to do with all the pain and suffering in this world. But they do. They don't want to understand that there is Devil, and Satnic Kingdom upon this earth battling against the Kingdom of God for the souls and life of mankind. Until people are ready to take the time to know the whole truth, they can't be helped
Providential1611 2 weeks ago
@Providential1611 I have to butt in on this one. Gotta commend you for your circularity. Your beliefs are a closed system, not unlike hardcore scientific atheists. It seems as if you have made doubt itself a sin. But does it really answer our questions? How about when it calls for the murder of homosexuals? Do you follow that to a T as well? As a thought experiment, imagine intelligent life was found on another planet. What would your Bible say then?
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
@brailleGraffiti The Bible does not call for the "murder" of homosexuals. Show where this is commanded to all believers at all times. As for intelligent life on another planet--they way we are going--the secular route, we are hard pressed to find it here.
Providential1611 2 weeks ago
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@Providential1611 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." - Leviticus 20:13
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
@Providential1611 Very funny. You have a sense of humor, I'll give you that. But you've only used it to dodge my question. The Kepler telescope has spotted planets that are in the "habitable zone" for life to exist. This is an incredible find, and I'm sure that our space agency, if it is not hindered by a nuclear war with the RELIGIOUS nation of Iran, will discover much more that is surprising to us. Again, I pose you the question: what does your Bible say about this?
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
@brailleGraffiti They have been saying this for decades. If they have spotted actual planets, I'm sure they can provide photographic PROOF of these planets. Thus far, they have never provided such proof, just speculations based on other observations that require assumptions. Kinda like the "life" they have claimed to find on Mars
Providential1611 2 weeks ago
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brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
@brailleGraffiti I did a video response to your video response to this video. I have no "fixation" and your comment is unworthy of serious discussion. My response to you will go a long way to anyone who sees it in demonstrating who is childish. Since science is to be OBSERVABLE or experimental in some way that can be repeated,a nd since they can't even tell us what Quasars are nor explain other phenomena seen far away, spare me your credulity in such assertions.
Providential1611 2 weeks ago
@Providential1611 Well, now you're just talking non-sense. The results of the Kepler telescope are certainly repeatable. It is not some spooky witch craft that cannot be replicated. Its hilarious how you have no understanding of science. The fact that they don't have answers to everything doesn't prove ANYTHING. The computer that you typed your ignorant response with is not powered by the Bible, it's powered by science. Show respect for that which you do not understand.
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
@brailleGraffiti I undersand science better than you think. I simply do not believe that a little shimmer in the light of a star thousands or even millions of light years away "proves" a planet is there and further, that this little shimy also "proves" it could be hospitable to life! And this computer is not powered by "science", it is power by energy God provided and man utilizes. IS science some "thing"--some higher power--a god to you?
Providential1611 2 weeks ago
@Providential1611 Don't believe if you don't want to. I asked it as a thought experiment. I did not demand that you believed that the current evidence was conclusive, I was merely pointing to the plausibility. The question was IF it were shown conclusively, then what? Keep in mind that the IF part is not proven, and may never be proven. Again, it is a thought experiment.
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
@brailleGraffiti That is a trick-question.
Providential1611 2 weeks ago
@Providential1611 It's not a trick question: the Bible has no answer, and you know it. Hopefully for your sake, intelligent life outside our planet will never be found. But if it is, you have a lot of thinking ahead of you. Of course, you could deny it all as some trick of the devil, but that's just silly.
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
@brailleGraffiti The Bible surely answers this question.
Providential1611 2 weeks ago
@Providential1611 Also, scientist have SPECULATED that life exists/existed on Mars, but they have never CLAIMED it. At least not the credible ones. There IS very convincing evidence that Mars at one point could have sustained life, primarily exhibited by the signs that liquid water once flowed on its surface, as well as the apparent presence of OCEANS of frozen ice beneath its surface. Please, read a BOOK. Especially if you're going to call the non-religious stupid.
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
@brailleGraffiti I didn't call non-religious people stupid--you must refer to my video response to you. I called the arguments you put forward as stupid, and I proved it. So again, I ask where is the evidence that the Bible commands believers to kill homosexuals? You didn't provide evidence for this, you merely asserted it. You entire video response to Voodie is like that--one erroneous assertion after another and no proof whatsoever.
Providential1611 2 weeks ago
@Providential1611 You're right, the Bible doesn't command it. I merely threw that verse out as a noose to see if you would hang yourself with it. You're a little smarter than that, but not smart enough to spot a gambit when you see one. The fact is, the verse is ambiguous, and requires a lot of knowledge external to the Bible to interpret. But it certainly isn't a stretch to think that it could be used as an incitement for murder.
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
@brailleGraffiti What verse? If you cited one, I have not seen it.
Providential1611 2 weeks ago
@Providential1611 The verse from Leviticus. There has been a flood of posts, I'm not surprised you missed it. You might want to step a few pages back, it's still there.
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
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@Providential1611 Here it is again, in case you have trouble finding it.
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." - Leviticus 20:13
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
@Providential1611 It is nor more erroneous or "assertive" than anything Baucham says. If you understand this, you've made it half way. The next step is to start thinking for yourself.
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
@brailleGraffiti I wan "thinking for myself" long before you were born. I am 46. Voodie asked a questions that has a built-in-premise--like the ones college students ask. Except Voodie's premise is far more logical, intuitive and demonstrable than theirs.
Providential1611 2 weeks ago
@Providential1611 Intuitive, yes. Logical, no. Baucham's argument is an EMOTIONAL argument, not a logical one.
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
@brailleGraffiti And college student don't offer heat rather than substance???
Voodie's premise is logical, unlike the college student, who believes NOTHING exploded and created everything in the perfect symmetry and ingredients for all the life and things we enjoy. Some theorists posit prior to the Big Bang was this "singularity". Ah yes--THAT. GOD. Paintings are proof for a painter, building prove there was a builder and the universe screams GOD!
Providential1611 2 weeks ago
@Providential1611 You're making a lot of assumptions about me. I make assumptions too, but at least they are based on what others have said. I never said that I believed that the universe was created from "nothing". In fact, I believe that I said that I was agnostic, on a personal level. I just know that my subjective experiences are not verifiable, so I don't put a lot of stock in them when it comes to convincing others.
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
@brailleGraffiti I didn't say you believed in the Big Bang, but many college students do and argue from this UNPROVEN and logically absurd presupposition. Voodie's is better in every way
Providential1611 2 weeks ago
@Providential1611 It is better for answering the subjective. But compared to science, that is no competition: science ignores the subjective. When compared to other philosophies and religions, INCLUDING less extreme versions of Christianity, Baucham's answer is, as I said in my video, CRAP.
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
@Providential1611 If you are following the comments that I am making in the other video, you will know that I believe that science can only deal with the objective. It is TERRIFYINGLY effective at this, and thus cannot be ignored or brushed aside. However, it is so far useless when it comes to the subjective, which is where religion and philosophy come in.
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
@Providential1611 The lack of acknowledgement of the subjective does leave an enormous hole, but it does not instantly default to Christianity as the ONLY answer for the subjective. There are MYRIAD other religions, many of which are equally, if not MORE convincing.
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
@brailleGraffiti LOL! You mean those polytheistic ones where the "gods" are more wicked than even people have been??? If there is a God, and transcndant Being who made it all, it is OBVIOUS that the Christian understanding and description of Him is the only logical, rational and believable that squares with what we see, know, experience and understand morally. Only an Omnipotent, Omniscient, Everlasting and Personal God could have made all things.
Providential1611 2 weeks ago
@Providential1611 First of all, I don't understand your notion of "wickedness". Second, your religion is based of Judaism off of which it establishes its entire moral foundation. So don't act like your the only show out there with "tough" moral standards. Do not underestimate the faiths of others, and do not think that your loud proclamations of "wickedness" scare me. I may be young, and you may be much older than me, but your invocation of fear is not convincing.
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
@brailleGraffiti wickedness as in immoral, corrupt, petty, selfish, cruel--surely you understand that and how it would be impossible for such wicked traits to exist in any "god". Therefore the religions that posit such ideas are clearly fables. Also, we don't deny Christianity is from Judaism Christ said "salvation is of the Jews". Christianity is the FULFILLMENT of the Jewish promises to that nation to bless the whole world.
Providential1611 2 weeks ago
@Providential1611 You seem to have a lot of anger at the recent marginalization of Christianity by secular forces. For this, I cannot blame you. But you lack the perspective to see the bigger picture, and you seem unable to appreciate the views of others. You think that Christianity is Righteous, and religions such as Judaism and Islam are somehow not? Please, sometimes age can blind a person.
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
@brailleGraffiti You know that I believe the ENITIRE Old Testament is the Word of God? Surely you know I follow the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? As far as Islam--apparently you haven't studied its writings, history or the wicked, immoral life of its founder, the polygamist and pedophile Mohammed. No, Islam has no true righteousness or vitue in it--simply racism, hate, intolerance and utter falsehoods along with sexual perversion.
Providential1611 2 weeks ago
@Providential1611 Second, you exhibit little faith in Christ to follow through with his plan. If indeed this world is wicked, and we are in a wicked time, then this is what He intended. Yet you think that your indignation changes this? Think again. Why would you want to steer the world off the course that He has planned? Step aside: Christ is bigger than you. Don't underestimate him either.
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
@brailleGraffiti No, things are not going along with what he intends. He intends for all men to repent and follow Him, but many will not, preferring their sinful ways instead. Most of what happens on planet earth now is not His will. His will shall be accomplished on this earth one Day, but woe to the unrepentant and wicked when He comes. It will be too late.
Providential1611 2 weeks ago
@Providential1611 As for the Polytheistic religions such as Hinduism, yes, their Gods are modeled closely after human behavior. I don't see why this is wicked and contemptible, its just different.
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
@brailleGraffiti Then they are no "gods" worthy of our worship, obedience, nor should we emulate them. If they aren't morally superior to sinful humanity, they are no gods!
Providential1611 2 weeks ago
@Providential1611 That's your perspective, and I can appreciate that. But it's not the only perspective. And that's ONLY polytheism. What do you feel about Islam and Judaism?
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
@brailleGraffiti I answered that below. Good night
Providential1611 2 weeks ago
@Providential1611 Your argument also holds NO water against Buddhism, which seems to be completely off your radar.
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
@brailleGraffiti Buddism denies the existence of a personal God and claims man is worthless. Not so in the Bible! I'll take a Buddist over Islam any day! At least they don't try and "kill the infidels"! I have to go to bed. Take your time with my video. I am not looking for a knee-jerk reaction or rebuttal. I hope it makes you think deeply. Good night braille
Providential1611 2 weeks ago
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@Providential1611 You have a hopelessly limited understanding of such technology if you think that photographs are necessary for "proof". I'm no physicist, but I know that the Kepler telescope does not visually "spot" these planets, but uses some method to detect the gravitational effects that these planets exert on the stars they orbit. This can, in fact, be FAR more accurate than a "photograph". Your fixation on visual proof is almost childish. Read books, and not ones with pictures.
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
@chrispalser As i posted earlier, my daughter was said to have had mental and physical disabilities. we were not concerned about the physical as much as the mental. I fasted and prayed (without anyone knowing not even my wife that i was doing this) for the week before the MRI. the results came back and NOTHING not any sign of mental disabilities. the dr. said he could not explain because there was clearly something wrong. my wife and i knew what the answer was.
lhsffa 2 weeks ago
Have you heard of Louie Giglio? Either way if you could find the time to watch the "Indescribable" and "How Great is our God" messages he delivered a few years ago, it is well worth the view!
lhsffa 2 weeks ago
@lhsffa I have not, but I'll give him a chance. Like I said, I'm always looking to be surprised.
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
@lhsffa With respect to Louie Giglio, I watched his video Indescribable, and I'm not surprised that a Christian wonders at the universe. It's certainly a more appropriate attitude than fear and self hate if you believe in an omnipotent God. He offers a MUCH better explanation of why "bad things" happen than Baucham's hot air. If only more Christians were like him, I would have nothing to complain about, but I'm still an atheist ;)
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
Some plant, some water, but God gives the increase!
lhsffa 2 weeks ago
Believe it or not I don't look at them as arguments at all! I look at them as intense theological discussion! If I may be so bold as to ask: How many times has someone sincerely (with love) shared the gospel of Jesus with you?
lhsffa 2 weeks ago
@lhsffa Many times. In fact, as I have said before, my parents were and are Christian (although you could say that they are now non-practicing). Although, I suppose that if they and other Christians around me had been more gentle and sincere, as you say, then I might be a Christian now. But I'm thankful that they weren't, because there is so much that I would have never seen nor learned if I was.
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
@lhsffa And who knows? I may still come around yet, I'm just waiting for someone to convince me. I'm sorry that wasn't you, it seems like you are genuinely concerned with saving me.
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
@lhsffa You just aren't very convincing, at least not to me.
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
Oh I feel this conversation is more about you than me! And YES I still defend Voddie Baucham! I will keep the theological beliefs I have and tell everyone with earshot! Your convictions are between you and (Guess Who) GOD! Thank you for some great conversation! We can agree to disagree! I still contend that you are very intelligent and "a thinkin man"
lhsffa 2 weeks ago
@lhsffa Well, me likewise. It's simply a difference in perspective, which is healthy. If you choose to listen to him, in spite of everything I've said, then I suppose their is not much more that I could say to change your mind. But hopefully you will continue to think about what I said.
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
I immediately found the student and told him not to worry about the other! That is not what true christians do nor the way to share Jesus.
lhsffa 2 weeks ago
I'm gonna share a story with you! I'm a high school science teacher! One student can to me crying (a christian student) saying that her previous class was having a conversation about salvation. One student admitted that he was an atheist! At that comment the entire class bombarded the student with hateful comments about how stupid he was for being an atheist (even the teacher got in on it)! It made the student cry!
lhsffa 2 weeks ago
@lhsffa Maybe I am that student, and I have come to exact vengeance ;) But yes, you have a very valid point, and this is precisely what I am trying to say! That we shouldn't treat people with such disdain, when we have made such little effort to understand them. Based on your argument with me, I would say that you appear to be a true Christian, since I've put on some pretty scary arguments, and done everything that I could to shake you, and it hasn't phased you.
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
@lhsffa But don't be complacent in your faith! There is still much to learn, and you shouldn't be afraid of scary arguments, for though you may walk through the valley of the shadow of death, you will fear no evil. :)
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
So we are born sick and commanded to be well under the threat of eternal damnation? Doesn't sound like much of a choice to me. THEN WHY ARE WE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION!
lhsffa 2 weeks ago
@lhsffa We are having this conversation because you came to defend an indefensible argument, put forth by a Voddie Baucham. Have you forgotten? I would also hope that you are personally learning something about the futility of forcing your world view onto others, that would be my primary goal. If you are aware of this, then yes, I do not know why we are having this conversation any more.
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
You are correct in one instance! Yes homosexuals were part of the "Sodom and Gomorrah" destruction! The point is God gave them an out, they could have turned from their behavior and prevented everything that happened! I myself have family in similar sinful situations, if you were one of them standing before me now and asked will you support me in this lifestyle, I would have to say absolutely not! Would I continue to love you, YES! I do not apologize for my belief or my stand in this matter!
lhsffa 2 weeks ago
@lhsffa I can respect your attitude toward homosexuality, just don't force it on anyone. I like how this conversation has become more about you than Baucham. Given up defending him, have we?
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." - Leviticus 20:13
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
"Narrow minded" that the best compliment you've given me in quite some time.
lhsffa 2 weeks ago
@lhsffa Ah, so you really are getting it. "Narrow minded" is only an insult if you value open mindedness more than narrow mindedness. Very true.
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
Why would dare compare "The God" to allah! You my friend need to read a few more books to distinguish between the two! Allah teaches that you and I are infidels and should be killed for our belief. The holy and righteous God of the bible teaches that all mankind has an opportunity to come to saving knowledge and the no man should perish. Hell was not created for you and I only for satan and his demons. We, through non belief of Jesus Christ, send ourselves!
lhsffa 2 weeks ago
@lhsffa No my friend, your Holy Bible calls for homosexuals to be murdered. How do you know I am not one of them? And when your Christian brothers sacked Jerusalem in the Crusades, the streets were said to be knee high with blood. When the Muslims retook it, they simply let the Christians leave. The fanaticism you see in Islam is only a RECENT development, just as the compassion in Christianity is only a RECENT development.
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
@lhsffa Your narrow view of Islam only proves that it is you who need to read more books, especially your own Bible. Islam was once a VERY compassionate religion, and still is to many people.
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
@lhsffa "We, through non belief of Jesus Christ, send ourselves!" So we are born sick and commanded to be well under the threat of eternal damnation? Doesn't sound like much of a choice to me.
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
Any empire that makes Crucifixion a routine spectacle needs to be confronted, and Jesus certainly did that. Although, what he put in it's place turned out to be not much better (recall the Salem witch trials).
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
@jaredduba You may delete my comments, but they will still go to Ihsffa's inbox :P
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
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Other gods are dead! D E A D as in not living as in have not resurrected themselves, therefore why would someone put all their faith in a dead god or prophet! Your response to this will go something like this, "Prove that Jesus resurrected himself from the grave" and to that I will say, "Prove that he didn't"!
lhsffa 2 weeks ago
Other gods are dead! D E A D as in not living as in have not resurrected themselves, therefore why would someone put all their faith in a dead god or prophet! Your response to this will go something like this, "Prove that Jesus resurrected himself from the grave" and to that I will say, "Prove that he didn't"!
lhsffa 2 weeks ago
@lhsffa Again, getting better, but still not there. I don't need to "prove" that Jesus DIDN'T rise from the dead, I simply need to SHOW you how such a belief could arise, which is why I compared him to Socrates (and it's probably why jaredduba deleted my comment). The hole of doubt that it causes is sufficient.
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
@lhsffa Also, other Gods, particularly the God of Islam, are based off of the same God as Christianity (which is ultimately based off of Judaism). It was only Jesus who came up with the silly idea that God needs to come to Earth and be killed in order to rise from the dead. The other Gods aren't dead, they simply never wasted their time taking human form. Perhaps this is why the Christian god is so appealing to some, because he took the time to be Human.
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
@lhsffa But it's also precisely because of that reason that it is unappealing to Islam: it reeks of polytheism. God is in two places at once, experiencing different things, and thinking different thoughts. Surely, this is just a weaker version of polytheism, if not the genuine article.
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
@lhsffa I would respond to you're Islamic critics that they are too narrow minded. But I also think you are too narrow minded in you're belief that Jesus could only be the Son of God, and not a clever individual with an agenda. Of course there is C.S. Lewis' liar, lunatic, or messiah argument, which I don't think is compelling. He excludes the possibility that Jesus was neither, but simply an intelligent person who wanted to challenge the debauchery of Rome, but had no authority to do so.
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
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One of my Art History teachers was a Christian, and based on his lectures, he probably could have danced circles around me in an argument, though we never did get into this discussion. Baucham might be able to as well, but only by slick use of public speaking skills, like a used car salesman luring an unsuspecting customer into buying a lemon.
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
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brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
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Don't abandon your faith, cling to it. Intuition is often far more powerful than rational thought. That is why I do not dismiss Christianity: I may be wrong about it, and it may surprise me one day. But for crying out loud, THINK ABOUT IT!
brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago
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brailleGraffiti 2 weeks ago