Also, I do not know of anyone today or in the past who said the Mutazila are nonMuslim (they certainly said that about the Muslim philosophers like Ibn Sina though). Normally Mutazila are called heteredox Muslims, but still Muslims.
I do not think Mutazila thought was ever held by the majority of Muslims, or even close, but possibly the majority of the caliph's scholars and many Muslim scientists were in fact Mutazila.
@IslamicGoldenAge Who said Ibn Sina was a nonMuslim? I have not read Imam Ghazali's refutation of Ibn Sina's works, but I don't even know if he calls Ibn Sina a Kuffar. I have read many books on Islamic history and philosophy and not once was Ibn Sina referred to as a nonMuslim. I know that Ibn Roshd's counter to Imam Ghazali certainly makes Ibn Sina's arguments legit. I think what I meant to say is that for a period of time the Mutazila were considered orthodoxy/were accepted as legit.
Ramadan Mubarak. There is much in the thought of Islamic philosophers and Mutazila that is to be respected, and also much that is strange and difficult to reconcile with the texts of Islam or the understanding of the earliest Muslims.
I think it is very important to read, think, and more profoundly, to ask God for guidance in humility as we do at least 17 times a day. I think it is clear from reading the Quran that guidance is not obtained from man's effort alone, but also as a gift from God.
@IslamicGoldenAge Ramadan Mubarack. Well I think the Mutazliah and Philosophers hade no issues with reconciling the texts of Islam with their arguments and views. However if one does not share their views of course it would seem odd or strange, which would be natural. I would agree that our efforts, the whole reason we are here and can think and act is due to God.
LOL for those watching and wonder "Oh Crap! Yea i'm still a Muslim" loool. Sponging is not that bad as long as you differentiate the good from the evil but a mutazilite is... no.
It depends how extreme is your mutazilite belief, if you believe Allah created his knowledge, that that could make you a kaffir. There were some good mutazilite thinkers such as the tafasir scholars but at the same time. Be careful. University students are always on the line loool. May Allah guide us all.
@FATAL12SKILLZ No I don't believe Allah swt created his knowledge. I have not read that in the books on the Mu'tazalite's. I am aware there are members of that school that came up with some extreme concepts, I don't follow those particular ones. I am still learning about this school so I have a lot more to read.
The fact is, orthodoxy may be that which is the most popular but you know very well that is not the case with Islam. Islam has always been based on the views of the Salaf, the students of the Sahaba and the students of the students of the Sahaba. Most people are not knowledge and among the knowledgeable Muslims there are the extreme Salafi, the extreme sufi, and everyone in between. There was also the Khawarij, the extreme Shia (and moderate ones) and the murtadin who fought Abu bakr (RA).
@FATAL12SKILLZ I agree that there are extremist in each group, and we must be careful to not fall into their mind set. What I said in the video in my opinion is true considering the historical growth and development of Islam as a religion. I agree that the formative years were during the period of the Salaf. However an evolution does and has taken place as these various groups attest to this fact.
@ozzycda you understand that the Mutazilite during the time of the salaf right? Ibn Hanbal and Shaffi were Taba tabieens. Don't get me wrong there has always been rising of false interpretations of Islam but they never lasted, they always died but the belief that we have to stick to the way of the Salaf i.e the first three generations of Islam has always prevailed.
@FATAL12SKILLZ The views of what constitutes following the Salaf and what that means is also totally subjective. Not every Muslim thinks the same way regarding this concept, and how one expresses following the Salaf is, once again, very subjective.However I don't want to split hairs here on the comment section of this video, but I thank you for your comments.
@ozzycda the terrorist attacks which are going on today as well as the extremist are mainly Whabbis and usually name themselves Salafis/ Ahl Hadees ect founded by Abdul Whabb in the 18th century with the British Help
@FATAL12SKILLZ I will listen to the bio, thank you for sharing. I have read about Imam Ahmad(may Allah be pleased with him) and his views against the Mu'tazaliah. Also his personal interactions with them during his life.
@FATAL12SKILLZ I have not reached an exact solid verdict on that theological point. However I will say the arguments given by Mu'tazalite scholars regarding looking at the Quran as created, has its merits.
@ozzycda It takes logic to see that Gods word was not created, that is looking to philosophical and to try to explain Allah (other than identifying the obvious such as Allah being One and that which Allah and his messenger peace be upon him have identified) is very dangerous. Allah says "Vision perceives Him not, but He perceives [all] vision; and He is the Subtle, the Acquainted" One argument Ahmad ibn Hanbal uses is that the word that Allah said for the creation to be created was "be"
Brilliant video =) I'm going through such a phase right now, although I'm taking a different direction. I have only God to rely on to show me the way. and I submit to my humanity to Him completely inshAllah. May God guide your mind and heart toward Him in the best manner that only He knows =)
Ashari were never orthodox, they were always the enemies of the mainstream muslims. Abu Hanifa, Malik, Shafi, Ahmad were never Ashari. Imam Bukhari was never Ashari. Muslim was always never Ashari. The majority was never an argument in islam.
Muatezilla was a sect, and still is. This video is really sad.
I encourage this too - some of the great scholars of Islam have been Mu'tazili like Al Zamakhshari who wrote a language based tafsir of Qur'an. So I for one aren't angry with you, lol. Go where the evidence leads ;P
I can whole-heartedly encourage your journey through the diversity of Islam and Islamic thought. Please do not be discouraged by brothers and sisters who wish to see a uniform way of thinking
I do find that the Mu'tazilite positions often make more sense than those of the so-called 'Ahlus Sunnah.' The appreciation of human reason, no nihilistic, legalistic Divine command theory, no eternal, uncreated Qur'an, the amorphous (and therefore free-willed) God, etc.
I noticed you've cited the Mu'tazilite Muhammad Asad before. His tafsir is a little apologetic for my taste, but at the same time, considerably less morally and intellectually offensive than others.
See? See I TOLD YOU to look up the M word folks! They are almost forgotten by mainstream sunnis, almost dismissed as heretical branches....ignoring how powerfullly influntial they have been in the past, both ideologically and poligically. I could even say they almost could be credited for keeping me from apostating.
It doesn't anger me my brother I just think you should take your deen easily, you're still a new convert yet you've embarked on a quest for Islamic knowledge that most born Muslims haven't and may allah reward you.
I just think when Muslims enter into topics of philosophy they enter into a never ending pendulum which can be both enlightening but also dangerous as it leaves a big space for the shaytan to enter and unendingly cast doubt into your heart.
Sounds like you are still thinking about religion. It may be worthwhile to consider that your religious ideas/beliefs belong to you and inform your life. There is no reason that they necessarily conform to those of others. You might also find it useful to look at how religion functions. What do beliefs and rituals do in the life of the believer?
@ReligionFreeDeist Walikum Salam, thank you for your kind words. Change can be a freaky thing and I have gone through it before. I look at people who are worried for me with regards to my journey as natural and I am thankful, in a way that they care. However I feel that I must go with what make sense to me on a logical level which is the path I have outlined in this video. I really enjoy your videos, keep up the great work.
Just got back from camping and found this awesome reply. I have been thinking lately about the benefits of fundamentalism. I'll do a video on it. This was excellent! I think maybe people become distracted thinking the rest stops on the trips are the destination, then realize they are not. The goal should be to obtain the highest forms of virtue and continue to lead and encourage others to do so. excellent work!
"We have not even to risk the adventure alone, for the heroes of all time have gone before us. The labyrinth is thoroughly known. We have only to follow the thread of the hero path. And where we had thought to find an abomination, we shall find a god; and where we had thought to slay another we shall slay ourselves; where we had thought to travel outward, we shall come to the center of our own existence; and where we had thought to be alone, we shall be with all the world." -Joseph Campbel :0)
Ozzy, you never replied to my private message (where I rebuked your criticism of Quranites in one of your previous vids). It might interest you to know that a lot of Quranites admire the Mutazelah or followed the Mutazelah way before becoming a Quranite. The Mutazelah had a disdain for the Sunni scholars and called them Stuffers (hashaweyyah). Because they stuffed Isnad and Hadith in their heads. I see that you are on the path to becoming a Quranite. Did you read the translation I gave you?
@enusayr I read through some of the links you sent me. However I have no intention of becoming a Quranite since I have said to you, I really do feel that there is no basis for being a Quranite. This is my own personal opinion. However for you, if that is what you believe then that is of course your choice. The Mu'tazalites acknowledge and followed the Sunnah of the Prophet pbuh as outlined in the hadiths. The scholars I am reading have not called the Sunnis that since many of the cont.
@ozzycda cont. Mu'tazalit scholars followed the Sunni Madhabs of Fiqh and had respect for their position. It was with the Asharites they had doctrinal differences with, so I really find it hard to believe that this blanketed statement that the Mu'tazalites called SUNNIS "stuffers" is totally factual, but thats just my persona opinion on reading the text of Mu'tazaliah scholars and sheiks.
@ozzycda Mutazelah picked and chose Hadith that suited their point of view as a response to their rivals who had a high regard for hadith. They did call some of their rivals Stuffers (I am not lying on this), their rivals being Sunni scholars of Hadith that presented Hadith as a higher authority than logic in understanding Islam. You mentioned Madhabs of Fiqh; you do realize that the first two Madhabs (Hanfi and Maliki) did not rely heavily on hadith.
@enusayr I wasn't saying you were lying I am stating that I have not personally come across such statements even in the text of scholars of this school of thought. Any scholar from any school is going to use verses and hadiths to back up their points that is the nature of these sort of discussions. Hanfi and Maliki do not rely on hadith to establish their views on fiqh? Really?
@ozzycda "Hanfi and Maliki do not rely on hadith to establish their views on fiqh? Really?" Yes, really! Is this news to you? Go back to the originators; Abu Hanifah who is reported to reject Hadith as hearsay and Malik who wrote a book called Mowatta' that included a comparatively small number of Hadith but full of sayings of Sahabah and Tabe'een. They are not responsible for what their followers did in later centuries when hadith became so important.
@enusayr But did Imam Malik use his book of hadiths to establish his fiqh for the school he founded? And if so does that not disprove your assertion that they did not rely on hadith to establish said views?
@ozzycda Malik is believed to have written the Mowatta' (it was more likely written by his followers). It has about 1600 narrations. Of that is 27 Ayah, 11 Qudsi Hadith, and less than 500 hadith with a connected Isnad to the prophet PBUH. Now, my assertion was that Malik did not rely heavily on Hadith; how could he with 500 hadith? I give you this though, since he later became famous as a Madhab originator, to him goes the credit (or the blame) of making hearsay hadith a part of Islam.
@enusayr hanafi, maliki didn't rely heavily on hadith? ve u lost the plot? YES they relied heavily on the hadith, just as much as other sunnah. put imam abu hanafi in his time, where a new matter occured and there is no ayah or hadith covering it, bc they didnt have internet, planes, cars and couldnt communicate easily to find a hadith, he said the best course of action is extrapolate it from quran n sunnah, n not spend years searching. he didnt say lets not rely on hadith, thats a salafi myth.
@enusayr I never replied because I am busy and with doing other projects and frankly I am not 100% interested at this current moment to enter a debate of some kind regarding Quranite theology. I will say this, I read your message and link, along with your personal views on my questions and I was not satisfied with most of the responses. However like I said you can believe what you want and yes in future videos if I ever mentioned the Quranites I will say they have their own personal views cont.
@ozzycda contl. which they feel back up their theological position instead of saying what I said in the video you are referring to which is they don't have any evidence to back up anything. Thank you.
@ozzycda Don't say "personal views". They back up their ideas on Quranic text not personal views. I think you will eventually become a Quranite because if your thought process shook your belief in Catholicism and Orthodoxy it will also make you reject hearsay Hadith. You were not satisfied with my succinct answers to your questions because they contradicted the Quran or Hadith or because they were succinct? Do you accept hearsay hadith because it gives a detailed answer?
@enusayr I don't view Hadith as hearsay since I have respect for the science of hadith and its methodology which you obviously do not. I am glad you can predict the future, because I certainly cannot.
@ozzycda "I am glad you can predict the future, because I certainly cannot." you shouldn't mock me (or anyone else for that matter) because I might not forgive you for it. I probably spent more of my life studying Sunni orthodoxy than you did (I am older and from a Sunni-scholarly home), that's why I tend to make sharp statements like "hadith is hearsay" or "Abu Hanifa rejected hadith" because I forget that most people do not know the background for my statements.
@enusayr I am not mocking you with what I said above, I am being serious here, I cannot predict the future so therefore I am not saying that you are right or wrong. As I have said in these videos, my recent ones at least, I don't know where I am will end with my views in the future. At this moment, the Quranite view does not appeal to me personally and that is what does count at the current moment. I apologized to you for what I said int he past video, so again, sorry if I offended you.
@ozzycda but having respect for the science of hadith is one thing and believing hadith as being part Islam is another. Yes, I have no respect for hadith but to go further I've seen strong signs that Bukhari, Muslim and their lot were not only fabricators of hadith but also saboteurs of the message of Islam. I even think they were part of the Sho'oobiyyah (Peoples) movement. of course this is only conjecture but once you stop idolizing these"scholars" the conclusions are amazing.
@ozzycda Do this little statistical experiment; In Sahih Bukhari his Isnad chain contains at least 6 people in addition to the Prophet PBUH. Lets assume that there is a 5% chance that at least one of those narrators is falsely narrating. Run a binomial probability distribution statistical test and the results are that there is a 21% chance that at least one of the narrators in the Isnad is narrating falsely. So even if we give Bukhari the benefit of the doubt there is still that 1:5 chance.
@ozzycda sorry mate my bad i just got that impression form a message you sent someone i thought you might indirectly be suggesting such thing. My bad Ramadan Mubarak anyway Salaam =)
@enusayr Quranites have no bases of there belief simply because for 1400 years people have took the hadith, there is an isnad and we have hadith that go before Maliks Muwatta, students of Abu Hurairah who was a companion of Rasullullah. Another thing is there is a historical background to a good number of ayat in the Quran which you need to look into seera and hadith for that. How about the Qibla? The main thing is that Quranites are so unorganized and all of them have some different belief.
@FATAL12SKILLZ Your critique of Quranites is very basic which could mean that you dismissed their view point without truly researching it. If you like I can send you a link to some of their works (the ones that I personally read and found compelling).
@FATAL12SKILLZ Based on my statistical calculations above, Isand is very unreliable. The six books of Hadith (that contain the bulk of Hadith) were written in the 3rd century with Isnad that implies that they were transmitted orally to the author.
There are historical account that make me distrust Abu Hurairah.
BTW, your assertion that Hadith was accepted for 1400 years is rebuked by historical accounts. It was 3rd century politics that gave Hadith all that power.
@FATAL12SKILLZ The Quranite are unorganized but that is an appealing point about them. If they were organized into a monolithic sect that would make them modern day Salafists. They have different view points and present supporting arguments based on the Quran. From a spectator's view point you get to judge who has the best Quranic argument. Hey, it's only heaven or hell that are at stake here and I am convinced that the Salafi view point is very wrong.
@enusayr I'm sorry, I can not believe, Allah who said the religion is perfected would send a disorganized religion. The religion of Islam is a reflection to the human beings need and we thrive on organization, or even if we don't thrive it we need it. Besides what is the "salafi" view point? Allah said in Surah Hashr ayah number 7 whatever the messenger of Allah gives you take it. And that in surah ahl imran that who ever loves Allah to "FOLLOW ME"!You didn't answer about the history in da Quran
@FATAL12SKILLZ And you didn't answer my question about sending links. The best defense is a good offense; does taking what the messenger gives or obeying the messenger as the Quran orders means obeying and blindly following Bukhari for example?Why should I trust him or his book? Why should I trust the historical tales or (asbab nozool)? Allah said his religion is perfected and as such good for all ages but Orthodox Islam wants us stuck in the 3rd century. It is politics that created Orthodoxy.
@enusayr what question about sending links? Imam Bukhari relates that which the Messenger of Allah related. The same people who gave us the Quran are those who gave us the Hadith, and the same way the Quran was transmitted (I.E those people who perserve the Quran, the professional Qari have Isnads) is the same way the hadith were transmitted. And whatever the Messenger has given you - take; and what he has forbidden you - refrain from (59:7) If it was Allah who was refraining he wouldn't single.
@FATAL12SKILLZ I offered links to a Quranist view point. Your questions are easily answered but this youtube forum is not the place. As I said before, if you are interested in knowing how a Quranist might critique Hadith and it's methodology you have to research their logic instead of reading what their opponents say. I don't know if you can read Arabic but I also have some English references fro you if you are interested.
@enusayr I've went to plenty of Quranist View point, I've spoken to them on youtube before, what happened? Blocked on there videos. I've went ot there forums debated them, no sufficient answers, I debated them in the forums I'm in. And Sharour is a deviant who works for the Shia-Syrian government, a government who oppresses people why, BY Allah would I ever listen to a Dhalim? And by the way I was born in Canada so don't tell me anything about not understanding english.
@FATAL12SKILLZ Slow down! I would never block you as long as you keep it polite, and I never accused of not understanding English. I've never heard or felt that Shahrur is a tool for the Syrian regime, that is propaganda by his enemies. Let's say he is, so? I am more interested in the arguments than the arguments originator as any researcher should. According to your youtube page you are 11 years younger than me and all your fav vids are in English. So I assumed that you don't speak Arabic cont.
@FATAL12SKILLZ and because of your young age I assumed you are a hasty hot-blooded youth :). I also assume that you never read or intend to read Shahrur because of the lies you heard about him. That is a wrong attitude because you will never gain TRUE confidence in you convictions unless you read the argumentation of an opposing view point. I differ with Shahrur on many points but his grounding is firm and his logic is clear. If you are willing to read the book I sent you cont.
@FATAL12SKILLZ I am willing to go a step further and have an intellectual debate with you on, let's say, Skype. youtube is not a good forum for this discussion. However, for this discussion to be meaningful we must at least know the basics about each others view points. For example when I say that Messenger is different than Prophet you should realize that that is part of the hypothesis that there are no synonyms in the Quran. That is why it is essential to read at least cont...
@FATAL12SKILLZ read the part that discusses Sunna in Shahrurs book, so that we don't get frustrated with each other. It is not a lot of pages but it will help tremendously. Of course, if you still refuse to read it then you should question the strength of your convictions that would be shaken by reading a few page from the "dhalim" Shahrur. I look forward to hear your Canadian accent and apologize if any of my assumptions about you were wrong.
@enusayr single out the messenger. I allready showed you it was before the 3rd century because we have hadith EARLIER than that which are identical to that which we have in Ahmads Musnad. Say, [O Muhammad], "If you should love Allah, then follow me, [so] Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." What is there to follow, why didn't Allah just say listen to Allah. Because The Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him followed the Quran and was the living Quran.
@enusayr by the way, Classical Arabic, if it wasn't for Hadith you would not even be able to translate the Quran. To translate and understand the Quran scholars look at a few different sources, Arabic poetry from the Jahilliya era, the arabic of the Hadith, and documents from the jahiliya era, so you need hadith to understand the arabic and all those other documents are passed down by who? The scholars who believe in hadith. So you need hadith for purposes other than rulings and so forth.
@FATAL12SKILLZ These hadith from a student of Abu Hurairah they are fresh, and these hadiths were copied into Ahmad's Musnad and they are identical despite them being centuries apart
@tellthemnow112 I have read the Quran thanks, and if you feel that reading books is brainwashing then you imply gaining knowledge is brainwashing and that I somehow cannot think for myself. I will continue to read as many books as I can as I am a nerd and I don't mind expanding my mind and learning, thanks!
@enusayr very disappointing, if you truely believe in the sunnah, like i do, then you should spend some time in learning from hadith. your manner and attitude is alien to that in the sunnah, telling a person what he will become, being aggressive while trying to guide him isn't something i've seen in the sunnah. maybe ur having a off day, i don't know, but u rn't doing the sunnah any favors.
Salaam alikum Ozzy. Good to hear you are still a Muslim, I am happy to hear this news. May Allah keep us on his religion & Allah(swt) will judge us all. Keeping the 5 pillars of Islam is what makes us Muslims(in my little knowledge) So, it's all good. All the best to you on your journey.
@mufcadnan123 Salamu Alaykum, I think this is an overgeneralization of this time period. Granted as I said in the video there were specific Caliphs that were not nice people and of course others that I am sure fit your description. However to associate these haram acts with the righteous scholars of any school of thought of his time period I think is without basis. Again you can remind of the hadith but again Mu'tazalites did not simply interpret according to their own desires as I stated.
@mufcadnan123 This is a common misconception about the Mutazalite's which I find very strange because it keeps getting brought up. I am reading books by these scholars of this school of thought and I see them using and utilizing Quran and Sunnah to prove their points. Yes they did value and emphasize reason and logic however they did not abandon scripture and interpretation of said scripture.
Hey ozzy, have you read Al Ghazali's 'Incoherence of the Philosophers'? if so, what are your thoughts on that? if not then you should definitely check it out, its a direct attack and refutation of the doctrines of Ibn Sina and Al Farabi.
@RzaaV2 I own a copy and have read many parts of it although I plan on reading it in full. I also have a copie of Averroes' refutation of Imam Ghazali, his "The Incoherence to the Incoherence" which I will be reading in full as well.
@ozzycda there is work that is available that assesses all the arguments of the first 4 sections of both works, its well worth reading after you've read both Ghazali and Rushi's works. let me know if you're interested and i'll PM you the link for for the PDF inshallah.
@RzaaV2 Please do linke me, I'll probably read that AFTER I read the two works. However I am reading many of these scholars works in the order in which they were written, so that means starting with Al-Kindi and working my way from there. So it might take me a little bit to get to this PDF LOL. Thanks for the offer bro, I gladly accept it :)
it is kinda disappointing in many ways. 1stly by choosing this path, then secondly by the state of the sunnah engaging other theologies and understanding their own. truth is we the sunnah have taken several massive steps backwards in our own theological understand such the case that it is so easy for a sunni to be seduced by mu'talizite theology even though it is long dead. fact is their theology died away bc the sunnah engaged them in ideas and gave them a beating. problem is us not the sunnah.
@imadhurata Sorry to disappoint. I would argue that it hasn't been dead but it has been preserved in various ways throughout history and as recent as the 20th century had a spike in resurgence of people learning and considering their views. However as I said in the video just because something might have been dead does not mean it was wrong, it simply did not have the support to carry on thanks to not being popular with the majority of people. That's just my take on history though.
@ozzycda well we can accept that you need a "take on history" and it isn't a fact. but for me, i'd have to disagree, it should effect whether or not it was wrong, if you hold to the base principles of islamic theology. what i mean by that is that islam's take on human/god interaction is that throughout our existences on earth there has been open access to truth and that this truth can engage falsehood. mutazilite doesn't fit but the sunnah does.
@imadhurata Again I think it is rather subjective about who owns the truth or in this context the Sunnah. A real beating? I would argue the reason why the Mu'tazalite school of thought "died" was due to Baghdad being destroyed by the Mongolians and Cordoba being taken back by the Catholics. There were and still are plenty of scholars who continue the Mu'tazalite point of view and doctrines, just because it happens to not be held by the majority populace like I said in the video, does not cont.
@ozzycda yes we can agree to disagree, im also fine with that, though i do believe if we do continue in dialogue im sure we will both benefit. as for your point, eventhough i disagree, it doesn't invalidate my previous point. if you can accept that the mutazilates school of thought diminished enough to a level in which it is unaccessable to the average joe, until the age of the internet, then it will undermine the core principles of the islamic theology.
Overall, I wish you the best. From what I have seen and heard from you over the years, I think you are a genuinely good person, and I ask Allah (swt) to guide us to whatever pleases Him.
Be careful brother, using our own limited logic in understanding Islamic rulings can cause us to fall prey to following what our nafs (desires) tells us is right or wrong. This is what the Muʿtazilah fell victim to when debating the philosophers of their time. They used their own logic and rational, instead of the Quran and Prophetic traditions.
"Verily, the (human) self is inclined to evil.." [12:23]
It is best to focus on our ultimate purpose as Muslims, rather than try to rationalize Islam.
@SFAvfx Thanks for the advise, I have been taking careful scrutiny when looking at the history of the Mu'tazailah and their various methods of kalam and doctrines. However I like I said in the video I know that conclusions I may make will offend some and of course I will have to agree to disagree with others. Thanks for your comment.
Hey ozzy, from what I know is that the interpretation of the Qur'an should be in line with the interpretations or teachings of Muhammad. I guess its pretty subjective when it comes down to which group is more faithful to Muhammad's interpretation. However, be very careful to make sure that the mutazilite's teaching are in line with Muhammad's in say, the exodus account, because the implication would be that if you differ from Muhammad, then how can you be considered muslim. I wish you the best.
@Mkvine I would suggest you look into the history of kalam and different points of view regarding theology and interpretation in the history of Islam. Check out Karen Armstrong's book on Islam if your interested. Thans for your concerned. :) Also thanks to Averroes(Ibn Rosh) there was a direct influence on Catholic theology :)
Definitely, I'll check those out. It's interesting that Averroes used aristotelian philosophy to make certain theological claims. People like St. Augustine, St. Cyril of Aexandria back in the 4th -5th centuries and St. Aquinas later on used aristotelian philosophy to convey very esoteric doctrines. I really wish you all the best. Don't listen to haters and do what you think is best. Also prayers don't hurt either ;)
In my opinion don't listen to what other people say, I just think your actually a better Muslim when you read other perspectives, it opens your horizons, a lot my ideas might not be considered um orthodox by conservatives, for me I'm quite independent minded when it comes to my religious thought, and I read as much as I can to support my views. For me in social issues I'm a progressive, in interpretation I'm a Rationalist(Kalam or Mutazila) and in Spiritual outlook I take ideas from Sufism.
@marcelcol69 Walikum Salam THank you for the suggestions. I am looking at the Mu'tazalite arguments still as well as the counter arguments, so I am still keeping an open mind regarding the differences between the schools of thought.
Also, I do not know of anyone today or in the past who said the Mutazila are nonMuslim (they certainly said that about the Muslim philosophers like Ibn Sina though). Normally Mutazila are called heteredox Muslims, but still Muslims.
I do not think Mutazila thought was ever held by the majority of Muslims, or even close, but possibly the majority of the caliph's scholars and many Muslim scientists were in fact Mutazila.
IslamicGoldenAge 6 months ago
@IslamicGoldenAge Who said Ibn Sina was a nonMuslim? I have not read Imam Ghazali's refutation of Ibn Sina's works, but I don't even know if he calls Ibn Sina a Kuffar. I have read many books on Islamic history and philosophy and not once was Ibn Sina referred to as a nonMuslim. I know that Ibn Roshd's counter to Imam Ghazali certainly makes Ibn Sina's arguments legit. I think what I meant to say is that for a period of time the Mutazila were considered orthodoxy/were accepted as legit.
ozzycda 6 months ago
Ramadan Mubarak. There is much in the thought of Islamic philosophers and Mutazila that is to be respected, and also much that is strange and difficult to reconcile with the texts of Islam or the understanding of the earliest Muslims.
I think it is very important to read, think, and more profoundly, to ask God for guidance in humility as we do at least 17 times a day. I think it is clear from reading the Quran that guidance is not obtained from man's effort alone, but also as a gift from God.
IslamicGoldenAge 6 months ago
@IslamicGoldenAge Ramadan Mubarack. Well I think the Mutazliah and Philosophers hade no issues with reconciling the texts of Islam with their arguments and views. However if one does not share their views of course it would seem odd or strange, which would be natural. I would agree that our efforts, the whole reason we are here and can think and act is due to God.
ozzycda 6 months ago
LOL for those watching and wonder "Oh Crap! Yea i'm still a Muslim" loool. Sponging is not that bad as long as you differentiate the good from the evil but a mutazilite is... no.
FATAL12SKILLZ 7 months ago
@FATAL12SKILLZ I really really recommend you to listen to the tafsir sessions of Nouman Ali Khan, it will give you a new view of the Quran.
FATAL12SKILLZ 7 months ago
It depends how extreme is your mutazilite belief, if you believe Allah created his knowledge, that that could make you a kaffir. There were some good mutazilite thinkers such as the tafasir scholars but at the same time. Be careful. University students are always on the line loool. May Allah guide us all.
FATAL12SKILLZ 7 months ago
@FATAL12SKILLZ No I don't believe Allah swt created his knowledge. I have not read that in the books on the Mu'tazalite's. I am aware there are members of that school that came up with some extreme concepts, I don't follow those particular ones. I am still learning about this school so I have a lot more to read.
ozzycda 7 months ago
@ozzycda Phew. I actually was wondering, you probably know about this, what is Karbala? Is it really Jewish black magic or what?
FATAL12SKILLZ 7 months ago
@FATAL12SKILLZ No, Kabbala is the Jewish mystical/spiritual tradition, it is not black magic.
ozzycda 7 months ago
The fact is, orthodoxy may be that which is the most popular but you know very well that is not the case with Islam. Islam has always been based on the views of the Salaf, the students of the Sahaba and the students of the students of the Sahaba. Most people are not knowledge and among the knowledgeable Muslims there are the extreme Salafi, the extreme sufi, and everyone in between. There was also the Khawarij, the extreme Shia (and moderate ones) and the murtadin who fought Abu bakr (RA).
FATAL12SKILLZ 7 months ago
@FATAL12SKILLZ I agree that there are extremist in each group, and we must be careful to not fall into their mind set. What I said in the video in my opinion is true considering the historical growth and development of Islam as a religion. I agree that the formative years were during the period of the Salaf. However an evolution does and has taken place as these various groups attest to this fact.
ozzycda 7 months ago
@ozzycda you understand that the Mutazilite during the time of the salaf right? Ibn Hanbal and Shaffi were Taba tabieens. Don't get me wrong there has always been rising of false interpretations of Islam but they never lasted, they always died but the belief that we have to stick to the way of the Salaf i.e the first three generations of Islam has always prevailed.
FATAL12SKILLZ 7 months ago
@FATAL12SKILLZ The views of what constitutes following the Salaf and what that means is also totally subjective. Not every Muslim thinks the same way regarding this concept, and how one expresses following the Salaf is, once again, very subjective.However I don't want to split hairs here on the comment section of this video, but I thank you for your comments.
ozzycda 7 months ago
@ozzycda the terrorist attacks which are going on today as well as the extremist are mainly Whabbis and usually name themselves Salafis/ Ahl Hadees ect founded by Abdul Whabb in the 18th century with the British Help
Khan12078 7 months ago
I recommend you to listen to the biography of Imam Ahmad Rahimullah
/watch?v=Z141cugR6wM
Theres 5 videos, one hour each, and Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal Rahimullah was a great opponent of this school of thought.
FATAL12SKILLZ 7 months ago
@FATAL12SKILLZ I will listen to the bio, thank you for sharing. I have read about Imam Ahmad(may Allah be pleased with him) and his views against the Mu'tazaliah. Also his personal interactions with them during his life.
ozzycda 7 months ago
Mutazalites say that the word of God was created. Do you believe that?
FATAL12SKILLZ 7 months ago
@FATAL12SKILLZ I have not reached an exact solid verdict on that theological point. However I will say the arguments given by Mu'tazalite scholars regarding looking at the Quran as created, has its merits.
ozzycda 7 months ago
@ozzycda It takes logic to see that Gods word was not created, that is looking to philosophical and to try to explain Allah (other than identifying the obvious such as Allah being One and that which Allah and his messenger peace be upon him have identified) is very dangerous. Allah says "Vision perceives Him not, but He perceives [all] vision; and He is the Subtle, the Acquainted" One argument Ahmad ibn Hanbal uses is that the word that Allah said for the creation to be created was "be"
FATAL12SKILLZ 7 months ago
Alsalam alaykum,
Brilliant video =) I'm going through such a phase right now, although I'm taking a different direction. I have only God to rely on to show me the way. and I submit to my humanity to Him completely inshAllah. May God guide your mind and heart toward Him in the best manner that only He knows =)
almulla 7 months ago
@almulla Walikum Salam, thank you for your kind words. Inshallah may he guide us. Ameen.
ozzycda 7 months ago
Ashari were never orthodox, they were always the enemies of the mainstream muslims. Abu Hanifa, Malik, Shafi, Ahmad were never Ashari. Imam Bukhari was never Ashari. Muslim was always never Ashari. The majority was never an argument in islam.
Muatezilla was a sect, and still is. This video is really sad.
TRUTHOFISLAM 7 months ago
Al Ghazali talked about Mu'taziliah and reply to their beliefs
xiaahmad 8 months ago
@xiaahmad Indeed, I own his book :)
ozzycda 8 months ago
@ozzycda
Next time I will make sure to name a book which u dont own ;)
xiaahmad 7 months ago
I encourage this too - some of the great scholars of Islam have been Mu'tazili like Al Zamakhshari who wrote a language based tafsir of Qur'an. So I for one aren't angry with you, lol. Go where the evidence leads ;P
ForJannah 8 months ago
I can whole-heartedly encourage your journey through the diversity of Islam and Islamic thought. Please do not be discouraged by brothers and sisters who wish to see a uniform way of thinking
salam
Dosaaful 8 months ago
I do find that the Mu'tazilite positions often make more sense than those of the so-called 'Ahlus Sunnah.' The appreciation of human reason, no nihilistic, legalistic Divine command theory, no eternal, uncreated Qur'an, the amorphous (and therefore free-willed) God, etc.
I noticed you've cited the Mu'tazilite Muhammad Asad before. His tafsir is a little apologetic for my taste, but at the same time, considerably less morally and intellectually offensive than others.
ConsideringPhlebas 8 months ago
See? See I TOLD YOU to look up the M word folks! They are almost forgotten by mainstream sunnis, almost dismissed as heretical branches....ignoring how powerfullly influntial they have been in the past, both ideologically and poligically. I could even say they almost could be credited for keeping me from apostating.
AAAhmed46 8 months ago
I just hope you find answers you want and inshallah keep on the straight path
jazak allah khair.
Omer698 8 months ago
It doesn't anger me my brother I just think you should take your deen easily, you're still a new convert yet you've embarked on a quest for Islamic knowledge that most born Muslims haven't and may allah reward you.
I just think when Muslims enter into topics of philosophy they enter into a never ending pendulum which can be both enlightening but also dangerous as it leaves a big space for the shaytan to enter and unendingly cast doubt into your heart.
cont.
Omer698 8 months ago 3
Sounds like you are still thinking about religion. It may be worthwhile to consider that your religious ideas/beliefs belong to you and inform your life. There is no reason that they necessarily conform to those of others. You might also find it useful to look at how religion functions. What do beliefs and rituals do in the life of the believer?
happyjesus123 8 months ago
@ReligionFreeDeist Walikum Salam, thank you for your kind words. Change can be a freaky thing and I have gone through it before. I look at people who are worried for me with regards to my journey as natural and I am thankful, in a way that they care. However I feel that I must go with what make sense to me on a logical level which is the path I have outlined in this video. I really enjoy your videos, keep up the great work.
ozzycda 8 months ago
Follow the salaf, stay away from bidah.
TRUTHOFISLAM 8 months ago
Just got back from camping and found this awesome reply. I have been thinking lately about the benefits of fundamentalism. I'll do a video on it. This was excellent! I think maybe people become distracted thinking the rest stops on the trips are the destination, then realize they are not. The goal should be to obtain the highest forms of virtue and continue to lead and encourage others to do so. excellent work!
wayman29 8 months ago
"We have not even to risk the adventure alone, for the heroes of all time have gone before us. The labyrinth is thoroughly known. We have only to follow the thread of the hero path. And where we had thought to find an abomination, we shall find a god; and where we had thought to slay another we shall slay ourselves; where we had thought to travel outward, we shall come to the center of our own existence; and where we had thought to be alone, we shall be with all the world." -Joseph Campbel :0)
wayman29 8 months ago
Ozzy, you never replied to my private message (where I rebuked your criticism of Quranites in one of your previous vids). It might interest you to know that a lot of Quranites admire the Mutazelah or followed the Mutazelah way before becoming a Quranite. The Mutazelah had a disdain for the Sunni scholars and called them Stuffers (hashaweyyah). Because they stuffed Isnad and Hadith in their heads. I see that you are on the path to becoming a Quranite. Did you read the translation I gave you?
enusayr 8 months ago
@enusayr I read through some of the links you sent me. However I have no intention of becoming a Quranite since I have said to you, I really do feel that there is no basis for being a Quranite. This is my own personal opinion. However for you, if that is what you believe then that is of course your choice. The Mu'tazalites acknowledge and followed the Sunnah of the Prophet pbuh as outlined in the hadiths. The scholars I am reading have not called the Sunnis that since many of the cont.
ozzycda 8 months ago
@ozzycda cont. Mu'tazalit scholars followed the Sunni Madhabs of Fiqh and had respect for their position. It was with the Asharites they had doctrinal differences with, so I really find it hard to believe that this blanketed statement that the Mu'tazalites called SUNNIS "stuffers" is totally factual, but thats just my persona opinion on reading the text of Mu'tazaliah scholars and sheiks.
ozzycda 8 months ago
@ozzycda Mutazelah picked and chose Hadith that suited their point of view as a response to their rivals who had a high regard for hadith. They did call some of their rivals Stuffers (I am not lying on this), their rivals being Sunni scholars of Hadith that presented Hadith as a higher authority than logic in understanding Islam. You mentioned Madhabs of Fiqh; you do realize that the first two Madhabs (Hanfi and Maliki) did not rely heavily on hadith.
enusayr 8 months ago
@enusayr I wasn't saying you were lying I am stating that I have not personally come across such statements even in the text of scholars of this school of thought. Any scholar from any school is going to use verses and hadiths to back up their points that is the nature of these sort of discussions. Hanfi and Maliki do not rely on hadith to establish their views on fiqh? Really?
ozzycda 8 months ago
@ozzycda "Hanfi and Maliki do not rely on hadith to establish their views on fiqh? Really?" Yes, really! Is this news to you? Go back to the originators; Abu Hanifah who is reported to reject Hadith as hearsay and Malik who wrote a book called Mowatta' that included a comparatively small number of Hadith but full of sayings of Sahabah and Tabe'een. They are not responsible for what their followers did in later centuries when hadith became so important.
enusayr 8 months ago
@enusayr But did Imam Malik use his book of hadiths to establish his fiqh for the school he founded? And if so does that not disprove your assertion that they did not rely on hadith to establish said views?
ozzycda 8 months ago
@ozzycda Malik is believed to have written the Mowatta' (it was more likely written by his followers). It has about 1600 narrations. Of that is 27 Ayah, 11 Qudsi Hadith, and less than 500 hadith with a connected Isnad to the prophet PBUH. Now, my assertion was that Malik did not rely heavily on Hadith; how could he with 500 hadith? I give you this though, since he later became famous as a Madhab originator, to him goes the credit (or the blame) of making hearsay hadith a part of Islam.
enusayr 8 months ago
@enusayr hanafi, maliki didn't rely heavily on hadith? ve u lost the plot? YES they relied heavily on the hadith, just as much as other sunnah. put imam abu hanafi in his time, where a new matter occured and there is no ayah or hadith covering it, bc they didnt have internet, planes, cars and couldnt communicate easily to find a hadith, he said the best course of action is extrapolate it from quran n sunnah, n not spend years searching. he didnt say lets not rely on hadith, thats a salafi myth.
imadhurata3 8 months ago
@ozzycda "some of the links"? I only gave one one link to the Reformist Translation of the Quran and encouraged you to read the appendices.
enusayr 8 months ago
@enusayr I didn't mean to say some of the links, I meant to say I read some of the link that you sent me.
ozzycda 8 months ago
@enusayr I never replied because I am busy and with doing other projects and frankly I am not 100% interested at this current moment to enter a debate of some kind regarding Quranite theology. I will say this, I read your message and link, along with your personal views on my questions and I was not satisfied with most of the responses. However like I said you can believe what you want and yes in future videos if I ever mentioned the Quranites I will say they have their own personal views cont.
ozzycda 8 months ago
@ozzycda contl. which they feel back up their theological position instead of saying what I said in the video you are referring to which is they don't have any evidence to back up anything. Thank you.
ozzycda 8 months ago
@ozzycda Don't say "personal views". They back up their ideas on Quranic text not personal views. I think you will eventually become a Quranite because if your thought process shook your belief in Catholicism and Orthodoxy it will also make you reject hearsay Hadith. You were not satisfied with my succinct answers to your questions because they contradicted the Quran or Hadith or because they were succinct? Do you accept hearsay hadith because it gives a detailed answer?
enusayr 8 months ago
@enusayr I don't view Hadith as hearsay since I have respect for the science of hadith and its methodology which you obviously do not. I am glad you can predict the future, because I certainly cannot.
ozzycda 8 months ago
@ozzycda "I am glad you can predict the future, because I certainly cannot." you shouldn't mock me (or anyone else for that matter) because I might not forgive you for it. I probably spent more of my life studying Sunni orthodoxy than you did (I am older and from a Sunni-scholarly home), that's why I tend to make sharp statements like "hadith is hearsay" or "Abu Hanifa rejected hadith" because I forget that most people do not know the background for my statements.
I have hope for you cont
enusayr 8 months ago
@enusayr I am not mocking you with what I said above, I am being serious here, I cannot predict the future so therefore I am not saying that you are right or wrong. As I have said in these videos, my recent ones at least, I don't know where I am will end with my views in the future. At this moment, the Quranite view does not appeal to me personally and that is what does count at the current moment. I apologized to you for what I said int he past video, so again, sorry if I offended you.
ozzycda 8 months ago
@ozzycda but having respect for the science of hadith is one thing and believing hadith as being part Islam is another. Yes, I have no respect for hadith but to go further I've seen strong signs that Bukhari, Muslim and their lot were not only fabricators of hadith but also saboteurs of the message of Islam. I even think they were part of the Sho'oobiyyah (Peoples) movement. of course this is only conjecture but once you stop idolizing these"scholars" the conclusions are amazing.
Peace!
enusayr 8 months ago
@ozzycda Do this little statistical experiment; In Sahih Bukhari his Isnad chain contains at least 6 people in addition to the Prophet PBUH. Lets assume that there is a 5% chance that at least one of those narrators is falsely narrating. Run a binomial probability distribution statistical test and the results are that there is a 21% chance that at least one of the narrators in the Isnad is narrating falsely. So even if we give Bukhari the benefit of the doubt there is still that 1:5 chance.
enusayr 8 months ago
@ozzycda so are you suggesting that you dont follow the Hadiths as well
Khan12078 7 months ago
@Khan12078 I don't recall saying I don't follow Hadiths.
ozzycda 7 months ago
@ozzycda sorry mate my bad i just got that impression form a message you sent someone i thought you might indirectly be suggesting such thing. My bad Ramadan Mubarak anyway Salaam =)
Khan12078 6 months ago
@enusayr Quranites have no bases of there belief simply because for 1400 years people have took the hadith, there is an isnad and we have hadith that go before Maliks Muwatta, students of Abu Hurairah who was a companion of Rasullullah. Another thing is there is a historical background to a good number of ayat in the Quran which you need to look into seera and hadith for that. How about the Qibla? The main thing is that Quranites are so unorganized and all of them have some different belief.
FATAL12SKILLZ 7 months ago
@FATAL12SKILLZ Your critique of Quranites is very basic which could mean that you dismissed their view point without truly researching it. If you like I can send you a link to some of their works (the ones that I personally read and found compelling).
enusayr 7 months ago
@FATAL12SKILLZ Based on my statistical calculations above, Isand is very unreliable. The six books of Hadith (that contain the bulk of Hadith) were written in the 3rd century with Isnad that implies that they were transmitted orally to the author.
There are historical account that make me distrust Abu Hurairah.
BTW, your assertion that Hadith was accepted for 1400 years is rebuked by historical accounts. It was 3rd century politics that gave Hadith all that power.
enusayr 7 months ago
@FATAL12SKILLZ The Quranite are unorganized but that is an appealing point about them. If they were organized into a monolithic sect that would make them modern day Salafists. They have different view points and present supporting arguments based on the Quran. From a spectator's view point you get to judge who has the best Quranic argument. Hey, it's only heaven or hell that are at stake here and I am convinced that the Salafi view point is very wrong.
enusayr 7 months ago
@enusayr I'm sorry, I can not believe, Allah who said the religion is perfected would send a disorganized religion. The religion of Islam is a reflection to the human beings need and we thrive on organization, or even if we don't thrive it we need it. Besides what is the "salafi" view point? Allah said in Surah Hashr ayah number 7 whatever the messenger of Allah gives you take it. And that in surah ahl imran that who ever loves Allah to "FOLLOW ME"!You didn't answer about the history in da Quran
FATAL12SKILLZ 7 months ago
@FATAL12SKILLZ And you didn't answer my question about sending links. The best defense is a good offense; does taking what the messenger gives or obeying the messenger as the Quran orders means obeying and blindly following Bukhari for example?Why should I trust him or his book? Why should I trust the historical tales or (asbab nozool)? Allah said his religion is perfected and as such good for all ages but Orthodox Islam wants us stuck in the 3rd century. It is politics that created Orthodoxy.
enusayr 7 months ago
@enusayr what question about sending links? Imam Bukhari relates that which the Messenger of Allah related. The same people who gave us the Quran are those who gave us the Hadith, and the same way the Quran was transmitted (I.E those people who perserve the Quran, the professional Qari have Isnads) is the same way the hadith were transmitted. And whatever the Messenger has given you - take; and what he has forbidden you - refrain from (59:7) If it was Allah who was refraining he wouldn't single.
FATAL12SKILLZ 7 months ago
@FATAL12SKILLZ I offered links to a Quranist view point. Your questions are easily answered but this youtube forum is not the place. As I said before, if you are interested in knowing how a Quranist might critique Hadith and it's methodology you have to research their logic instead of reading what their opponents say. I don't know if you can read Arabic but I also have some English references fro you if you are interested.
enusayr 7 months ago
@enusayr I've went to plenty of Quranist View point, I've spoken to them on youtube before, what happened? Blocked on there videos. I've went ot there forums debated them, no sufficient answers, I debated them in the forums I'm in. And Sharour is a deviant who works for the Shia-Syrian government, a government who oppresses people why, BY Allah would I ever listen to a Dhalim? And by the way I was born in Canada so don't tell me anything about not understanding english.
FATAL12SKILLZ 7 months ago
@FATAL12SKILLZ Slow down! I would never block you as long as you keep it polite, and I never accused of not understanding English. I've never heard or felt that Shahrur is a tool for the Syrian regime, that is propaganda by his enemies. Let's say he is, so? I am more interested in the arguments than the arguments originator as any researcher should. According to your youtube page you are 11 years younger than me and all your fav vids are in English. So I assumed that you don't speak Arabic cont.
enusayr 7 months ago
@FATAL12SKILLZ and because of your young age I assumed you are a hasty hot-blooded youth :). I also assume that you never read or intend to read Shahrur because of the lies you heard about him. That is a wrong attitude because you will never gain TRUE confidence in you convictions unless you read the argumentation of an opposing view point. I differ with Shahrur on many points but his grounding is firm and his logic is clear. If you are willing to read the book I sent you cont.
enusayr 7 months ago
@FATAL12SKILLZ I am willing to go a step further and have an intellectual debate with you on, let's say, Skype. youtube is not a good forum for this discussion. However, for this discussion to be meaningful we must at least know the basics about each others view points. For example when I say that Messenger is different than Prophet you should realize that that is part of the hypothesis that there are no synonyms in the Quran. That is why it is essential to read at least cont...
enusayr 7 months ago
@FATAL12SKILLZ read the part that discusses Sunna in Shahrurs book, so that we don't get frustrated with each other. It is not a lot of pages but it will help tremendously. Of course, if you still refuse to read it then you should question the strength of your convictions that would be shaken by reading a few page from the "dhalim" Shahrur. I look forward to hear your Canadian accent and apologize if any of my assumptions about you were wrong.
enusayr 7 months ago
@enusayr I'll reply to your message before Ramadan Insha'Allah
FATAL12SKILLZ 7 months ago
@enusayr single out the messenger. I allready showed you it was before the 3rd century because we have hadith EARLIER than that which are identical to that which we have in Ahmads Musnad. Say, [O Muhammad], "If you should love Allah, then follow me, [so] Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." What is there to follow, why didn't Allah just say listen to Allah. Because The Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him followed the Quran and was the living Quran.
FATAL12SKILLZ 7 months ago
@enusayr by the way, Classical Arabic, if it wasn't for Hadith you would not even be able to translate the Quran. To translate and understand the Quran scholars look at a few different sources, Arabic poetry from the Jahilliya era, the arabic of the Hadith, and documents from the jahiliya era, so you need hadith to understand the arabic and all those other documents are passed down by who? The scholars who believe in hadith. So you need hadith for purposes other than rulings and so forth.
FATAL12SKILLZ 7 months ago
@FATAL12SKILLZ These hadith from a student of Abu Hurairah they are fresh, and these hadiths were copied into Ahmad's Musnad and they are identical despite them being centuries apart
FATAL12SKILLZ 7 months ago
@ozzycda stop being a nerd bro , stop reading these brainwashing books .
read the best book . THE QURAN .
tellthemnow112 8 months ago
@tellthemnow112 I have read the Quran thanks, and if you feel that reading books is brainwashing then you imply gaining knowledge is brainwashing and that I somehow cannot think for myself. I will continue to read as many books as I can as I am a nerd and I don't mind expanding my mind and learning, thanks!
ozzycda 8 months ago
@enusayr very disappointing, if you truely believe in the sunnah, like i do, then you should spend some time in learning from hadith. your manner and attitude is alien to that in the sunnah, telling a person what he will become, being aggressive while trying to guide him isn't something i've seen in the sunnah. maybe ur having a off day, i don't know, but u rn't doing the sunnah any favors.
imadhurata3 8 months ago
Comment removed
enusayr 8 months ago
I truly appreciate this video, Im some what in limbo myself when it comes to faith,
MrMohjong 8 months ago
Salaam alikum Ozzy. Good to hear you are still a Muslim, I am happy to hear this news. May Allah keep us on his religion & Allah(swt) will judge us all. Keeping the 5 pillars of Islam is what makes us Muslims(in my little knowledge) So, it's all good. All the best to you on your journey.
muslim610 8 months ago
@mufcadnan123 Salamu Alaykum, I think this is an overgeneralization of this time period. Granted as I said in the video there were specific Caliphs that were not nice people and of course others that I am sure fit your description. However to associate these haram acts with the righteous scholars of any school of thought of his time period I think is without basis. Again you can remind of the hadith but again Mu'tazalites did not simply interpret according to their own desires as I stated.
ozzycda 8 months ago
@mufcadnan123 This is a common misconception about the Mutazalite's which I find very strange because it keeps getting brought up. I am reading books by these scholars of this school of thought and I see them using and utilizing Quran and Sunnah to prove their points. Yes they did value and emphasize reason and logic however they did not abandon scripture and interpretation of said scripture.
ozzycda 8 months ago
@mufcadnan123
And so you're saying that it's a fault of the Mu'tazilah that they *gasp* think?
ConsideringPhlebas 8 months ago
Hey ozzy, have you read Al Ghazali's 'Incoherence of the Philosophers'? if so, what are your thoughts on that? if not then you should definitely check it out, its a direct attack and refutation of the doctrines of Ibn Sina and Al Farabi.
RzaaV2 8 months ago 5
@RzaaV2 I own a copy and have read many parts of it although I plan on reading it in full. I also have a copie of Averroes' refutation of Imam Ghazali, his "The Incoherence to the Incoherence" which I will be reading in full as well.
ozzycda 8 months ago
@ozzycda there is work that is available that assesses all the arguments of the first 4 sections of both works, its well worth reading after you've read both Ghazali and Rushi's works. let me know if you're interested and i'll PM you the link for for the PDF inshallah.
RzaaV2 8 months ago
@RzaaV2 Please do linke me, I'll probably read that AFTER I read the two works. However I am reading many of these scholars works in the order in which they were written, so that means starting with Al-Kindi and working my way from there. So it might take me a little bit to get to this PDF LOL. Thanks for the offer bro, I gladly accept it :)
ozzycda 8 months ago
it is kinda disappointing in many ways. 1stly by choosing this path, then secondly by the state of the sunnah engaging other theologies and understanding their own. truth is we the sunnah have taken several massive steps backwards in our own theological understand such the case that it is so easy for a sunni to be seduced by mu'talizite theology even though it is long dead. fact is their theology died away bc the sunnah engaged them in ideas and gave them a beating. problem is us not the sunnah.
imadhurata 8 months ago
@imadhurata Sorry to disappoint. I would argue that it hasn't been dead but it has been preserved in various ways throughout history and as recent as the 20th century had a spike in resurgence of people learning and considering their views. However as I said in the video just because something might have been dead does not mean it was wrong, it simply did not have the support to carry on thanks to not being popular with the majority of people. That's just my take on history though.
ozzycda 8 months ago
@ozzycda well we can accept that you need a "take on history" and it isn't a fact. but for me, i'd have to disagree, it should effect whether or not it was wrong, if you hold to the base principles of islamic theology. what i mean by that is that islam's take on human/god interaction is that throughout our existences on earth there has been open access to truth and that this truth can engage falsehood. mutazilite doesn't fit but the sunnah does.
imadhurata 8 months ago
@imadhurata Again I think it is rather subjective about who owns the truth or in this context the Sunnah. A real beating? I would argue the reason why the Mu'tazalite school of thought "died" was due to Baghdad being destroyed by the Mongolians and Cordoba being taken back by the Catholics. There were and still are plenty of scholars who continue the Mu'tazalite point of view and doctrines, just because it happens to not be held by the majority populace like I said in the video, does not cont.
ozzycda 8 months ago
@ozzycda cont. its wrong. However we can agree to disagree because I feel like I am repeating myself, sorry about that.
ozzycda 8 months ago
@ozzycda yes we can agree to disagree, im also fine with that, though i do believe if we do continue in dialogue im sure we will both benefit. as for your point, eventhough i disagree, it doesn't invalidate my previous point. if you can accept that the mutazilates school of thought diminished enough to a level in which it is unaccessable to the average joe, until the age of the internet, then it will undermine the core principles of the islamic theology.
imadhurata 8 months ago
Overall, I wish you the best. From what I have seen and heard from you over the years, I think you are a genuinely good person, and I ask Allah (swt) to guide us to whatever pleases Him.
SFAvfx 8 months ago
@SFAvfx Likewise bro, Ameen to what you said.
ozzycda 8 months ago
By the way ozzy, when I first saw your video title, I initially thought you converted to eastern orthodoxy :D
Mkvine 8 months ago
@Mkvine LOL now that would have been random! Careful...thats how rumors start :P
ozzycda 8 months ago
Be careful brother, using our own limited logic in understanding Islamic rulings can cause us to fall prey to following what our nafs (desires) tells us is right or wrong. This is what the Muʿtazilah fell victim to when debating the philosophers of their time. They used their own logic and rational, instead of the Quran and Prophetic traditions.
"Verily, the (human) self is inclined to evil.." [12:23]
It is best to focus on our ultimate purpose as Muslims, rather than try to rationalize Islam.
SFAvfx 8 months ago 7
@SFAvfx Thanks for the advise, I have been taking careful scrutiny when looking at the history of the Mu'tazailah and their various methods of kalam and doctrines. However I like I said in the video I know that conclusions I may make will offend some and of course I will have to agree to disagree with others. Thanks for your comment.
ozzycda 8 months ago
10:00 - 10:30 ...sigh of relief hehe :)
yeh i think i have a better understanding of what orthodoxy means
anyway keep us updated bro this is highly interesting and i pray that allah increases all our emaan :)
0ptimusbibIe 8 months ago
Hey ozzy, from what I know is that the interpretation of the Qur'an should be in line with the interpretations or teachings of Muhammad. I guess its pretty subjective when it comes down to which group is more faithful to Muhammad's interpretation. However, be very careful to make sure that the mutazilite's teaching are in line with Muhammad's in say, the exodus account, because the implication would be that if you differ from Muhammad, then how can you be considered muslim. I wish you the best.
Mkvine 8 months ago
@Mkvine I would suggest you look into the history of kalam and different points of view regarding theology and interpretation in the history of Islam. Check out Karen Armstrong's book on Islam if your interested. Thans for your concerned. :) Also thanks to Averroes(Ibn Rosh) there was a direct influence on Catholic theology :)
ozzycda 8 months ago
@ozzycda *Catholic theological thought/philosophy
ozzycda 8 months ago
@ozzycda
Definitely, I'll check those out. It's interesting that Averroes used aristotelian philosophy to make certain theological claims. People like St. Augustine, St. Cyril of Aexandria back in the 4th -5th centuries and St. Aquinas later on used aristotelian philosophy to convey very esoteric doctrines. I really wish you all the best. Don't listen to haters and do what you think is best. Also prayers don't hurt either ;)
Mkvine 8 months ago
In my opinion don't listen to what other people say, I just think your actually a better Muslim when you read other perspectives, it opens your horizons, a lot my ideas might not be considered um orthodox by conservatives, for me I'm quite independent minded when it comes to my religious thought, and I read as much as I can to support my views. For me in social issues I'm a progressive, in interpretation I'm a Rationalist(Kalam or Mutazila) and in Spiritual outlook I take ideas from Sufism.
KelbAlrai1990 8 months ago
I suggest you to read the responses to the way mutazilites interpret the qur'an. I really suggest you to look at the other perspectives
a book with comments of Uthaymeen respond to those groups, just look into it the refutations
I understand mutazilite arguements can be logical, but if you look at the refutations youll find they are logical as well.
assalaamu alykum, may Allah guide you to alsiraatalmustaqueem
marcelcol69 8 months ago
@marcelcol69 Walikum Salam THank you for the suggestions. I am looking at the Mu'tazalite arguments still as well as the counter arguments, so I am still keeping an open mind regarding the differences between the schools of thought.
ozzycda 8 months ago