concerns about conifers (pine, fir, spruce, cedars, etc.)

[rephaim23]

Douglas fir are my favorite tree. But they are absolute monsters that dominate the pacific forests. Of course, most of the Douglas fir forests today are younger trees, so they lack the diversity of the real old growth lowland forests which existed a hundred years ago.

They can reach 315 feet tall in just 253 years in the lowlands. - The Washington Forest Reserve by Horace Beemer Ayres, Geological Survey (U.S.) 1899. pg 295

[gelflingfaysuzanne]

Pines in themselves are a great food source. You get great of mulch and compost as well. You can put livestock houses such as a chicken house or a goat shed under the pines to help keep them warm in the winter an cool in the summer. The roots can be used as cordage in emergencies! Pines around my home have loads of plant growth underneath like American Beauty Berry which is another edible(berries)/insect repellent(leaves). And more uses as well. Do not underestimate the great pine!

[tanyageyer1]

Or how about:

pH 5.0 to 6.5 and above

Maples, Serviceberry, Fringetree, Franklinia, Hollies, Larch, Sweetgum, Magnolias, Crabapples, White and red oak, Weeping willow, Sassafras, Mountain ash, Japanese stewartia, Canadian hemlock, Mountain stewartia, Drooping leucothoe, Carolina allspice, Gardenia, Witch hazel

pH 5.0 and below

azaleas, Blueberries, huckberries, heather, juniper

[tanyageyer1]

So if the main issue is acidification, what about growing some food crops that require acidification, like blueberries?

[EKWisner]

Conifer-dominated forests are normal. Monocrop plantations sprayed to death until the thistles give up and the doug fir toothpicks prick their way into a cloudless sky, are not.

Patchy mixed-conifer with clearings supports biodiversity, edible and medicinal. Not as starch-productive as a wapato swamp or oak/camas savannah. But in season, it's where to go for fiddleheads, berries, and year-round shelter, clean air and water, firewood, and those shade-loving salmon and trout.

Patchy is good.

[grippingconch]

Great video

[novruz4017]

There are very MANY conifers with edible seeds (nuts) - Pinus cembra and Pinus corean in Eurasia and many species of "edible" pines with large nuts in America. If anybody wants to grow them, he need those "bad" acid soils and the mykorisa of conifer forest.

[lunarrn]

Wow. We have acres and acres in my Florida county of planted pines and I have never thought about the lack of undergrowth until now. It also might have something to do with the smaller deer than in neighboring counties. Well, the phosphate mining doesn't help. They tear up the soil ruin it and replant in pines.

[antifoundational]

@lunarrn It sounds like you are referring to slash pine, which is typically managed in dense stands for pulp and timber. There is not much sun so not much life below.

Mature stands of native pines are not allelopathic. When allowed to regularly burn they have an open canopy with a diverse community of species. Conifers in the pacific northwest are not the same in the coastal southeast.

[gardenfarmer]

we've recently taken out 20 acres of pines, and have covered the ground with oats clover barley potatoes jeruselum artichokes apples figs peaches walnuts chestnuts tagasaste rye grass honey locust and a myriad of weeds chook poo and dead animals

the ground is coming back with native trees ferns and ground covers

11 months later the gound is a green carpet as opposed to a wasteland

thanks for the video

[drconnole]

Ernie is always drinking tea

[jcg1183]

We have the same problem with Juniper trees in Texas. Without the burning they over take, use up all the water, and can cause some pretty intense allergies.

[sookiestackhouse2u]

;-)

[vutEwa]

someone mentioned don't plant Junipers on permies.com and that got me studying and watching videos. Junipers are even worse than Pines because they suck water out of the ground and evaporate it. But like that last comment about Fir lumber, Juniper makes a fine fine wood. It is harder than Oak, so far as I can tell. I cut me a stick out of Juniper and I have whaled on it so hard, not even a dent. The Oak dents though at a certain point.

[DanOptsOut]

Doug Fir makes fantastic trim. I love it for that purpose.

[KanadianKain]

paulwheaton, you are awesome, just thought someone should tell you that. :)

your not alone in your mission ;)

[paulwheaton12]

@KanadianKain This sort of thing puts the wind in my sails.

I hope when you say that I'm not alone in my mission, you mean to say that you are spreading the word about this video! :)

[BikeManDan1]

Well there's always the pine beetle....I guess

[HotSauceJohnny]

During the first part of the video, you comment on the "nice organic matter". Would that be usable in a garden, or would it be too acidic?

[paulwheaton12]

@HotSauceJohnny There is the acidic factor and there is the natural-herbicide thing that you wouldn't want in your garden.

[pearlzenith]

@HotSauceJohnny Unless you're growing huckleberries or blackberries, you're going to have a lot of difficulties. I tried, before I knew what was going on, and was exceedingly frustrated.

[trimalta]

If a site is planted with firs.. Can it recover once its harvested for Timber? Will greens grow on that soil? and after how long if not after a year or two.

[paulwheaton12]

@trimalta It will take a while to come back.

[trailkeeper]

This reminds me of the song called "The Trees" by the rock group Rush.

[vutEwa]

@trailkeeper kind of sort of but not that much because the Oaks and Maples are cousins sort of. The pines are like alien invaders. Song would be very much shorter if it were the Pines and the Oaks :)

[JohnnySoprano87]

Interesting, but despite having properties that we may not like, these conifer-only forests are a natural thing, right? Despite how we may want to look to what native people did as good, still sounds to me like the burning practices is still just classic tendency to interfere and fight nature rather than working with it as permaculture teaches.

[paulwheaton12]

@JohnnySoprano87 True. Of course, how much of the food you eat comes from an all conifer environment.

[p4h10oso]

doug firs suck!

[ahnamay]

An excellent variety of information on conifers. I like how Rick Valley points out that while conifers are not as useful as oaks in food forest systems, when they get in the way, you simple harvest them for lumber. The idea being that in a managed system, you're still growing lots and lots of different kinds of trees, just not very many douglas firs.

[tmgibs34]

There is a natural progression of plants in a forest. Pines and conifers are an intermediate species. Oaks are usually found in areas that are being managed by man in land that has been subjected to repeated burning.

[antifoundational]

@tmgibs34 It's the opposite in the coastal southeast. If looking at it through the lens of linear progression, you would say here that long leaf pine is typically the climax species with hardwood (mainly oak) more common where burning has been prevented.

[docsimonson]

I love that Oak at 5:57 it is gorgeous! Look at all of that moss on the low branches. What a great place to be standing! It's amazing how we alter our environment. Even the native peoples impacted their environment. But their methods seemed to mimic and accelerate what would have happened in nature anyway.