So, you are trying to make the argument that God's sovereign choice of the "nation of gentiles"(?) caused the nation of Israel to questions His justice? Are not a people made up of persons?
Why is it acceptable that God could have a chosen people, but not chosen persons? Especially in light of passages like Eph. 1:3-6
"God's sovereign choice of..gentiles(?) caused the nation of Israel to question His justice?"
Yes, this was prophesied and even quoted by Paul in Romans 10 to continue his argument. I would presume you're aware there were not chapters in Paul's original letter--his argument continues, and it clearly reveals what I'm saying. I told you, we can go into each single verse from Rom 9 that is quoted from the OT and prove that yes--the nation of Israel was upset(and misunderstood)...
@Bill244888 ...how they were to inherit the land(Gal 3-4 explains this well, aligning with Acts 15). Go and read Gen 13:15--then see the footnote in your Bible, this is what Paul corrects in Gal 3:16. They questioned His justice because they thought that covenant was for physical national Israel, but the fact is that it was not. It was for Abraham and Jesus. Paul revealed the mystery of the Gospel(as you bring up Ephesians, see chap 3)--the unification of both into one covenant and Man, Jesus
"Why is it acceptable that God could have a chosen people, but not a chosen persons?..."Eph 1:3-6"
Glad you brought that up, compare Eph 1:3-12 with Rom 9:1-5... see how they align? I can show more verses to prove this if you're not convinced, but Eph 1:3-12 is speaking of the Jews(first to trust in Christ, v.12), then v.13-14 speaks of the Gentiles being added into the inheritance.
The point of God choosing the nation was to bring about the Messiah, and to make His name great.
Sorry, Romans 11 also continues the same argument to answer your first question. The second question I missed, yes a people is made up of persons. The difference also in God having chosen a nation is the purpose, for it was not for eternal salvation--even Gentiles sought after God(as shown by Rom 10-11). The point Paul is making in Rom 9 is that the Jews have no right to question God's opening up of the covenant to include Gentiles as His people. Each verse can prove this.
I implore you as a brother to see how if one rips out Rom 9:6-22 out of its context of the book---it changes the entire meaning of the argument Paul is making. It doesn't surprise me how one could be fooled by this chapter, but once you take the time to study the depth of Paul's argument and see how Scripture interprets Scripture---the Calvinist interpretation breaks down radically. Please take the time to look up what I ask and look up other things Paul quotes from the OT.
You don't understand Romans 9, anyone who thinks this proves the Calvinist god's sovereignty doesn't look up anything Paul's quoting in the OT. Welcome to proof-texting, and horrid exegesis. You're reading it in a vacuum and don't understand the historical or Scriptural context. The one thing Calvinists think they have is exegesis and I find them to be the most eisegetical so many times. Look up what Paul is quoting in the OT, THEN come back and respond.
Paul wasn't quoting the O.T. merely for a history lesson. His argument had a point, and that is that just as God sovereignly chose Jacob over Esau, so it is with everyone who is born again . . . "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." (Rom. 9:16) and "So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills." (Rom. 9:18)
"His argument had a point, and that is that just as God sovereignly chose Jacob over Esau, so it is with everyone who is born again"
WHOA what a false conclusion and a misunderstanding. Nothing there about salvation or being born again, talk about reading into the text. Are you actually willing to accept correction though?
Start with Rom 9:12--what is Paul quoting? Gen 25:23... what do Jacob/Esau represent, nations--not individuals. I will continue showing you this...
Next lets go with Roman 9:13... "Jacob I have loved, Esau I have hated"
Quoted from Malachi 1:2-3... notice the "us,"(in v.2) and the fact(not interpretation)--the FACT that Malachi was written hundreds of years after Jacob and Esau were dead, so it's clearly about the nation as a whole. Not about individuals and their salvation. Again, I can continue showing your error as Paul is consistent in his argumentation... the underlying thing you don't get, is it represents Jew/Gentile.
The Jews(and Jewish Christians to whom Paul is addressing for the first 11 chapters of Romans) did not understand how the Gentiles were being allowed into THEIR covenant. They were God's chosen nation, and they thought that only people who were physical descendants of Abraham would get the inheritance. This was even called out by Jesus in his parable way before Paul wrote this letter--see Matt 20:1-16, the people who have been serving God all along were complaining against Him.
So in this complaint, they thought they were God's chosen just because they were His physical nation and they were complaining that God was allowing others into His Kingdom at the last hour. The issue they didn't understand is the covenant was not to physical descendants--it was to the Seed(Christ, Gal 3-4), and those who abide in Him will receive the inheritance. I can show you this all verse by verse, Scripture interprets Scripture and you'll be refuted if you're willing.
Spurgeon: “Calvinism is the gospel and nothing else.” Warfield: “Calvinism … is the very breath of the nostrils of Christianity; without it Christianity cannot exist.” Talbot: “The doctrine of Calvinism ... is the true exposition of Scripture.” MacArthur: “The truths of Calvinism so much permeate the heart of the gospel message ... if you truly affirm the gospel you have already conceded the principle points of Calvinism.” Nuff said.
"God did not say that man did not have the ability to trust, or to believe."
Has he ever actually studied his bible?
Rom. 8:7-8
"For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
"You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?"
@Bill244888 I guess it was God's will that John Calvin torture and burn people at the stake even though it says in the book of Revelation that unrepentant murderers will have their place in the lake of fire. John Calvin admitted he didn't understand the book of Revelation. Hmmm...I wonder why. God's will is that none perish, so either God is a liar or he can't express what he really desires in the Bible.
Moses murdered a Roman, David conspired to have Uriah murdered so he could cover up his adultery with Bathsheba. Have you ripped the pentateuch and psalms out of your bible yet? Come on, they must be heretics, what are you waiting for?
@Bill244888 John Calvin didn't repent of his murders, he boasted of them and said he would do it all over again. He was a vile coward and since he avoided the book of Revelation, I'll address it. According to Revelation 21:8, he is roasting in eternal torment. Praise God.
V1 - "This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder,"
Who is he writing to? The "beloved"
What is the subject of this chapter? Peter is writing to believers encouraging them not to get discouraged when mockers claim that Christ is not returning.
"not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."
@Bill244888 calvinists will say 2Pet 3:9 is referring only to believers. If so, why would believers need to come to repentance? Yes, he was speaking to them regarding God's will for ALL men. Lets here a response to Ezekiel 33:11 or 1 Tim 2:4-6. Calvinism is a wicked doctrine and certainly contradicts the bible.
"When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”
"Yes, he was speaking to them regarding God's will for ALL men."
2 Pet. 3:9
"The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."
There is no conflict with God's sovereign election here. Though God takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked it will surely happen. This passage is a mirror of Christ's words in Mark 1:15, yet Christ also says in Matt. 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
Seeing that God's word will not return to Him void (Isa. 55:11), the call to repentance has either of 2 effects. Either it is empowered by the Holy Spirit to bring new spiritual life to dead sinners, or it will convict them on the day of judgment.
Paul speaking is to Timothy (a Jew) and encouraging him to pray for kings and all who are in authority (not Jews). He reminds him that God desires all men (Jews and Gentiles) to be saved.
1 Tim. 2:5-6
"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time."
If Jesus paid the ransom for every single person why do some still go to hell?
@Bill244888 Actually Jesus said MOST will end up in hell, and they go there because they reject the provisions for salvation and stay in their sins. To say God ordains or decrees everything that comes to pass makes Him a wicked dictator. Have you watched "Is God the Author of Sin" by refuting calvinism on youtube? It is roughly 1 hr long but well worth it given the info provided. Check it out friend and then comment
@Bill244888 Please don't tell me you believe that Jesus paid for sins we didn't commit yet, because that is nowhere to be found in scripture. Does the bible not say we need to repent(turn from sin) and live a holy life, obedient to God?Are you using the grace of God as a license to sin? Read Heb 10:26-31 if you are.God's forgiveness is conditional and only applies to those that forsake their sin, trust in Christ, and actually obey Him(John 14:15, Heb 5:9) Jesus has made this possible for anyone
"Please don't tell me you believe that Jesus paid for sins we didn't commit yet, because that is nowhere to be found in scripture."
How many of your sins were committed after Jesus was crucified? Let's take a wild guess and say ALL OF THEM. So Christ's sacrifice is of no benefit to you then, right?
So, what obtains salvation for men . . . Christ's sacrifice or their "good works"?
(Before you answer, you might want to check Romans chapter 3)
"God's forgiveness is conditional and only applies to those that forsake their sin, trust in Christ, and actually obey Him(John 14:15, Heb 5:9) Jesus has made this possible for anyone"
Agree with the first part of your statement. The problem you have is that you think you've generated repentance and faith on your own, which leads to boasting.
Scripture is clear that both repentance (Acts 11:18), and faith (Eph. 2:8) are given to us by God. Therefore, your final statement is false.
@Bill244888 Boasting? "The boastful shall not stand in His sight"(Psalms 5:5)Christ commands all men everwhere to repent(Acts 17:30).How are we unable to do so when Christ commands it? Also,original sin is false.Sin is transgression of God's Law(1 John 3:4),not some stuff passed through semen or blood.James 4:17 says a person must have knowledge to discern what sin is."For when the Gentiles,who have no law,do "by nature"the things of the law,these,though they have no law,are a law to themselves"
"How are we unable to do so when Christ commands it?"
Rom. 8:7-9
"For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you."
Until the Holy Spirit indwells us we are in the flesh and unable to please God. We can't repent, believe or obey Him. See John 3:7-8
"How are we unable to do so when Christ commands it?"
Rom. 8:7-9
"For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you."
Until the Holy Spirit indwells us we are in the flesh and unable to please God. We can't repent, believe or obey Him. See John 3:7-8
"The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, yet the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own people did not receive Him. But to all who did receive Him, who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."
@Bill244888 Many things you are quoting I am in agreement with, but God grants us His forgiveness upon us repenting and trusting in Christ. He promises to change us from inside out and to give us a heart of flesh that desires to live for Him as a result to us surrendering all. I have no comment on Rom 8:5-8. Is that supposed to support original sin? Yes, if we live after the flesh we will die.
"God grants us His forgiveness upon us repenting and trusting in Christ"
This is where we part ways . . . It doesn't start with any action on our part, God grants us the faith (Eph. 2:8) and the repentance (Acts 11:18) to obtain salvation.
@Bill244888 so you are saying that we don't have freewill choice to accept this gift or not? Try reading Proverbs 1:23-29. You never responded to why God treated Cain as if he had freewill if he was already condemned in Adam. He should have had the worse "sinful nature" there is right? Read Gen 4:6,7
@Bill244888 That passage doesn't have to speak of salvation, but it shows our ability to accept or reject God's kindness and mercy.If calvinism is true, this wouldn't be the case
Why do so many people have this twisted view of irresistible grace?
As I've mentioned in previous posts, before God makes us spiritually alive, we are slaves to sin with our minds darkened to the things of God and the reality of our sinful and condemned condition. Then the Holy Spirit opens our eyes not only to see the reality of our sinful condition, but to see Christ and the irresistible gift He has given us.
He doesn't take us against our will, He changes our will to see clearly.
I set 2 glasses in front of you, one filled with your favorite beverage (say a cold glass of iced tea) the other a glass of anti-freeze. Which glass would you "choose". This is a picture of the moment God opens our eyes to the truth. Prior to that point, it's not a 50/50 chance on which one we will drink, we actually have a taste for anti-freeze and hate iced tea. That's called "in the flesh", "spiritually dead", etc. Exactly as Rom. 8:6-8 says.
"But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness."
"Slaves of sin", "in the flesh", "spiritually dead" all the same, all unable to come to God.
@34craigjan Yes, we are called to live obedient lives, but this is something the Holy Spirit gives us the ability and desire to do when we are regenerated (2 Cor. 5:17). This is in response to what we have already received (Rom. 8:14-17) and is secured (John 10:28-29).
We can add nothing to our salvation! (Rom. 3:21-31)
"Did God ordain that Cain kill his brother Abel?"
If it happened, then God ordained it. Now, if you don't believe God is sovereign over His creation, you may have some trouble accepting this, but to those of us who know God as our sovereign Lord and creator this is clearly defended in scripture.
"In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, . . ."
@Bill244888 If Cain inherited some "sinful nature", he wouldn't have had the choice whether to kill his brother or not. Read Gen 3:16-24 and Gen 4:6,7 and you will see this is not the case. Do you use the NIV, because "sinful nature" is not found in the greek. Sarx is the greek word for "flesh" and flesh alone is not sinful. Calvinists misinterpret Rom 5. If you read verse 12 you will see why death spread to all men, why?, because all sinned, not all sinned in Adam.
"Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous."
@Bill244888 Rom 5:18,19- so who were the ones that weren't made sinners? Jesus made it possible for all to become righteous through Him, and Adam made it possible for all to become sinners. We know by other scriptures that all men will not be justified by Christ's righteousness because He said many are on the broad road to destruction. You are using universalism to justify your theology. Did you ever view that video I cited? Just curious
@Bill244888 How is my view of Christ's sacrifice and atonement "warped"? Acts 11:18 is simply stating that the Gentiles, just as the Jews, have been offered the same benefits of the atonement. I have no issue with Eph 2:8,9. Salvation isn't something we earn, but we will obey God and do good works as a result. (Eph 2:10, James 2:20-24, Colossians 1:10, 1 John 3:7)
"Acts 11:18 is simply stating that the Gentiles, just as the Jews, have been offered the same benefits of the atonement."
It wasn't an offer, they were granted repentance which leads to life. They were made spiritually alive (Eph. 2:4-5). Being born again is something that happens to us apart from any effort on our part.
John 3:3
"Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
"How is my view of Christ's sacrifice and atonement "warped"? "
By adding works you are claiming His sacrifice in itself was not fully sufficient to secure our salvation. You claim that our works add to it to complete it.
What were Christ's last words on the cross? "IT IS FINISHED!"
We can not, nor need not add anything to His finished work in securing our salvation.
@Bill244888 So does ignorance. The Stoics who Paul addressed in Acts17 had a great following in Rome also. They held the teachings of Plato and Aristotle, detailed of divine control. Paul was anticipating the question of these philosophers not affirming their teachings. He condemned philosophy in Col. 2:8 warning it would spoil a man. Study God's dealing with the 'clay' in Isaiah 29:16; 64:8; Jer. 18:10. The clay has a choice, it can rebel and it can repent. God sovereignly grants man free will.
"You turn things upside down! Shall the potter be regarded as the clay, that the thing made should say of its maker, “He did not make me”; or the thing formed say of him who formed it, “He has no understanding”?"
God is condemning the futile arrogance of the people (the clay). Just because they thought they were outside of God's control doesn't mean they were.
@Bill244888 Why didn't you expound the rest of the references? In Is. 64:18 the clay acknowledges God as it's creator, that's some pretty smart clay. In Jer 18:1-10 God says the clay has the choice to repent or continue on the path to judgment. This is applied not only to God's elect nation Israel but to every nation. Consider Ninevah, Jonah knew if they repented God would have mercy on them, he knew the LORD is a gracious God and merciful, slow to anger and great of kindness. Just read Joel 4.
"When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”
So, are you claiming to be "smart clay" or not?
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
@Bill244888 How does Jewish converts looking for Jesus to set up the Messianic kingdom on earth beingsurprised God granted Gentiles repentance amount to God's decreeing their salvation? To grant and decree are different things. The object of Eph 2:8 is grace not faith. The grace received thru faith is the gift of God. Eph 3:7 "the gift of the grace (not faith) of God." The gift Ro. 5:15,16 is imputed righteousness Ro 5:17, & eternal life Ro 6:23 not faith. The gift is received by faith.
"How does Jewish converts looking for Jesus to set up the Messianic kingdom on earth beingsurprised God granted Gentiles repentance amount to God's decreeing their salvation?"
The point is that the repentance needed for salvation did not come from within them, but from God. They did not decide in their sin darkened minds to repent. The ability to repent was GIVEN to them.
"The object of Eph 2:8 is grace not faith." Based upon what, your opinion, your churches tradition?
@Bill244888 Grant- to allow to have; to consent. To permit as a priviledge. To bestow. To transfer propery by deed. To concede, acknowledge. The statement is a response to the Gentiles speaking in tongues ( Acts10:45,46) the Jews had no concept of Calvin's doctrine of election or the unity of all believers revealed by Paul at this time. Eph 2: The book, received thru the mail and not from the store was a gift. What is the subject of this sentence? The subject is the object. Basic grammar.
"If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?” When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”
"repentance that leads to life" no mention of their gift of tongues.
"Eph 2: The book, received thru the mail and not from the store was a gift. What is the subject of this sentence? The subject is the object."
What is the main point of Eph, 2:8? That there is no room for boasting in one's salvation, yet you claim that "smart clay" recognize who God is and repent. Sounds like boasting to me.
Therefore, I will maintain my assertion that grace, faith, and salvation are all gifts of God so no one may boast of being "smart clay".
@Bill244888 In Eph 2 the subject is God's grace which is received by faith not by our own efforts. Works will only earn a man a front row seat in hell. Agreeing you deserve hell and crying out for mercy hardly amounts to trying to earn God's favour, it is accepting his grace by faith. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law (not gift) of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. (Romans 3:27,28)
@Bill244888 The clay is not an inanimte substance, it is living breathing talking thinking human beings. You know, sinners. The people Christ died to save.
"For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in Him but also suffer for His sake," - faith is granted by God.
Rom. 12:
"For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned." - Where did the faith come from? God!
@Bill244888 Again I refer you to the definition of 'granted'. To suffer for Christ sake is a great priviledge but not all Christians do. Acts 5:41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name. ...for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. (Ro 10:12,13,17) What does 'all' mean?
"In Is. 64:18 the clay acknowledges God as it's creator, that's some pretty smart clay."
No, that's some regenerated clay.
before God regenerates us we are as Romans 8:7-8 describes . . .
"For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
@Bill244888 Re Isa No one was regenerated until after the resurrection of Christ. Ro 8:7,8 Has your carnal mind been eradicated? Can you sin? Then you can walk in the flesh and displease God. If you don't walk after the Spirit you have condemnation as a child of God, it's called conviction, guilt, broken fellowship as in I Jn 1:5-10. A child of God may lose his joy, assurance, and break fellowship with God but he can never lose his salvation. We are under the law of liberty not the law of Moses.
@Bill244888 Show me a verse that says he doesn't. Show me the verse that says Esau went to hell or where God said he hated the man before he was born. You subject scripture to the doctrine of calvinism instead of subjecting your doctrine to scripture. You like the clay in Isa. 29 have turned things upside down and made God fit what you think he should be. Calvin got it from Augustine who got from Plato and Aristotle. In Aristotle's book Metaphysics and you find Calvin's source for his ideas.
"though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, . . . “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
@Bill244888 You skipped Jn 1:12 " But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." First belief then the power and new birth. Ro 9:11-13 The election vs 11 was to be the heir of Issac not to heaven or hell. Vs 12 quotes Gen 25:23, no hell there. Vs 13 quotes a statement made 1500 years after Esau was born in Malachi 1:2 not before.
"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."
What does that prove? The were still "born not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."
They did not of their own "free will" decide to become born again.
On the contrary, it seems as though you have succumbed to the heresy of Pelagius, Arminius, and Finney in idolizing the supposed "free will of man".
The problem with that theory is it runs contrary to the clear teaching of scripture. Romans 6:17-18 could not be any more plain that we are slaves to sin prior to being born again and then we are set free, we don't set ourselves free, but we are set free from slavery to sin to become slaves of righteousness.
@Bill244888 You are mistaken, Arminius added works to faith to assure salvation an idea condemned by Paul in Gal 2:21-3:4. I am not an Arminian or a Calvinist. I am a bible believing son of God who is kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation. You need a real bible, it will clear up a lot of things for you. The lost are servants of sin, slaves don't receive wages servants do. We are 'made' free typifying progressive sanctification as we grow in grace and knowledge not set free.
What real bible do I need? Let me guess, a KJV? The same KJV that was translated by a group of men who were mostly Calvinists? The same "inerrant" KJV that originally referred to Ruth as "he" and had to be revised. Should I read a 1611 KJV that contained the apocrypha? Or should I read one of the other revisions of the only "inspired" english translation? If it was truly "inspired" why did it need to be revised?
@Bill244888 The text used by new version translators Vatacanus, Sanaiticus, and Alexandrius contain the apocrapha as ppart of the canon of scripture. Luther and the AV translators seperated it from the canonical text and inserted it between testaments as an historical document not the word of God. This fact though well known is ignored by the enemies of God's word. As for the 'he' in Ruth you do know the type was hand set don't you? It was a printers not a translators error. Your grabbing straws
@Bill244888 The AV has never been revised. Printers errors were addressed in subsequent editions and spelling was corrected with the standardization of the written English language that is not revision it's refining. Seriously, are you going to try to redirect the discussion because you can't handle the original subject? Why can't you boys ever stay on point? You still haven't refuted a word I've said unless you think those feeble talking points are getting the job done. Not hardly friend.
You're the one who brought up my inferior bible, not me.
"The AV has never been revised." ???
1760 Cambridge edition
1769 Oxford edition (the text of almost all currently used KJV bibles by the way)
I'm not saying that the KJV should not to be used, but claims of it being divinely inspired and superior to any modern translation are a bit of a stretch.
Are you not aware that Augustine was a former Manichaean Gnostic of 9 years? And how clearly his past views seeped into his theology? Much of the church just swallows his views, sadly not realize he was also the father of Roman Catholicism, he taught that Mary was sinless when Christ was born through her? And you trust the councils who condemned Pelagius when he was not even there to represent himself?(formed by Augustine). Pelagius was sound in doctrine to the councils he appeared
I'm just saying too, I'm not here to defend the men or the councils--but if you're going to try and appeal to that lineage, you would be beaten. Augustine/Calvinism has been condemned at more councils than (semi)Pelagianism... you should REALLY look into it more. Even in the Synod of Dort--the standard for condemnation was not the Scriptures, but their catechisms. I'm not Arminian either--I stand on the Scriptures reasonably that Calvinists horridly misunderstand in context.
And if you're condemning "free will" because we're a slave of sin prior to coming to Him... you don't understand free will. You're setting up a straw man of it to knock down. We have had the ability to obey, we have chosen not to and become a slave. Then we were in bondage to sins. And to act so rigidly is to forget that people have escaped sins WITHOUT Christ(such as a drug addict becoming free). But that doesn't forgive them obviously. We still must die daily(our will).
"And to act so rigidly is to forget that people have escaped sins WITHOUT Christ"
Are you actually claiming another remedy for man's sins?
Gal. 1:8-9
"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed."
You think it's a different gospel to claim someone's gotten out of sin without Christ by their own will power and others? Are you denying that people have stopped using drugs(sorcery) by visiting rehab centers? That would be the bigger denial. Of course with Christ it's even easier since He can remove it like -snap- THAT.. but that's obviously showing a will.
Those who SIN are slaves of sin, it's not the other way around. Logic speaks well, one must murder to become a murderer
Yeah, you're still not reading my full arguments---this is a straw-man. I never said someone was FORGIVEN(or cleansed) for stopping their sin. I know alcoholics who'd given up their sin(drunkenness) before truly submitting to Christ--doesn't mean they're cleansed for those sins. I even gave up drunkenness of my own will for 6 months(personal choice to go that long) when I was a sinner. Read my full arguments, be reasonable.
Let alone the fact that I admitted they cannot be forgiven just because they stop using drugs. That's just a part of the Gospel to be freed from sin, the major part is the forgiveness through Christ's blood--which cannot be done just by someone quitting a sin by their own power. I remember as an unbeliever--I tried giving up one of my sexual sins of my own power, and I lasted about a week. I was a slave of it, and when He freed me it was gone! Praise Him! (stop strawmanning)
Also, if you're teaching the Limited Atonement... I'd say you fit the Gal 1:8-9 moreso than I in your claim--you teach Christ didn't die for all... if you teach that. That's just blindness--a twisting of a few select verses to deny the obvious truth of all the rest in their context.
You should take some time to study Gnosticism from the Ante-Nicene church(there was a church before Augustine)--and realize that Calvinism gets its roots in semi-Gnosticism, not in the original church
@Bill244888 I know, I know. Because man has free will and some choose to reject the truth for whatever reason. WHy don't you and droptozro finish up and then we can continue our discussion. I don't like to gang up on a man. You are not making a concession your accepting a courtesy. I'll bow out until you contact me again. I'll be praying for you.
If Christ died to pay for every single person's sins then why are so many still condemned to hell?"
This question is faulty, that's why anyone who attempts to directly answer would fall into your trap. It's based on improper presuppositions that the atonement was literal in the sense that all person's sins were LITERALLY on Jesus on the cross, rather than the fact that it was a general atonement to forgive ANYONE who trusts in the work He did.
"It's based on improper presuppositions that the atonement was literal in the sense that all person's sins were LITERALLY on Jesus on the cross, rather than the fact that it was a general atonement to forgive ANYONE who trusts in the work He did."
So, Jesus didn't actually atone for anyone's sins? If no one would have "chosen" to come to Him His death would have been in vain, no?
"And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him."
I've read my Bible---you aren't thinking logically or even properly period. It's a representation of what occurred. Sins are not physical things, but actions---transgression of the law according to 1 John. Do you think there was a literal physical PILE OF SINS on Jesus? Or on the scapegoat in the OT? I hope you don't say "yes," or I'll await the Scripture that says so... I'm a literalist too in the general sense with text, but I don't think this is literal but spiritual.
"Sins are not physical things, but actions---transgression of the law according to 1 John. Do you think there was a literal physical PILE OF SINS on Jesus?"
The sins of men are surely numbered (Amos 5:12) and there is not one that will go unpunished, either upon Christ at the cross for the elect (Matt. 1:21; Matt. 26:28), or upon each of the reprobate for their own sins (Rev. 20:12-15).
Yeah I still don't think you understand my objection... "my people" in that context would have been Jews in Matt 1:21. Matt 26:28 just says for the forgiveness of sins, thus still proving my view. And Revelation 20:12-15 still doesn't say sins are physical. The Amos 5 and Rev 20 verse just prove they're recorded, which even I agree with... I said "were there literal physical sins on Jesus' back on the cross?" Bearing burdens/sins doesn't mean it was physical. Show Scripture.
Could you actually respond to my questions and text too?... it's a good part of a reasonable dialogue to answer my questions(or show why they're faulty if they are) in order to have a critical discussion and not end up in fallacious argumentation. Otherwise just like most ALL of my discussions--I post questions/Scripture and others don't respond, they post their own on this endless run while I criticize theirs and they offer none to my own. It's a one-sided red herring debate
"rather than the fact that it was a general atonement to forgive ANYONE who trusts in the work He did."
I tried your theory, it doesn't fit . . .
Eph. 1:4-5
"even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will,"
..to follow up your faulty question, I'll ask you one.
What does Scripture say about WHEN(in time) someone(a believer) is forgiven? Were they forgiven at the cross when Christ died(2000 years ago)? Or were they forgiven when they repented and put faith in the work of the cross?
Look at 1 John 1:9(spoken to believers)--cleansed when confessed
Acts 3:19(spoken to Jews)--forgiven when repent and turn to God
Our atonement views are what differ presuppostionally. Show me yours.
..to follow up your faulty question, I'll ask you some.
What does Scripture say about WHEN(in time) someone(a believer) is forgiven? Were they forgiven at the cross when Christ died(2000 years ago)? Or were they forgiven when they repented and put faith in the work of the cross?
Look at 1 John 1:9(spoken to believers)--cleansed when confessed
Acts 3:19(spoken to Jews)--forgiven when repent and turn to God
Our atonement views are what differ presuppostionally. Show me yours.
..to follow up your faulty question, I'll ask you some.
What does Scripture say about WHEN(in time) someone(a believer) is forgiven? Were they forgiven at the cross when Christ died(2000 years ago)? Or were they forgiven when they repented and put faith in the work of the cross?
Look at 1 John 1:9(spoken to believers)--cleansed when confessed
Acts 3:19(spoken to Jews)--forgiven when repent and turn to God
Our atonement views are what differ presuppostionally. Show me yours
"What does Scripture say about WHEN(in time) someone(a believer) is forgiven?"
God's forgiveness involves a just payment being rendered for sin (Heb. 9:22). For the elect the payment was rendered in full on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24). All of the sins of the elect were paid in full at that time. While we must still enter through the doorway of repentance and faith (Mark 1:14-15) there is never any risk of one of God's elect dying in a state of unforgiveness (John 6:37).
1 Peter 2:24, yes showing what our Savior went through--literal or spiritual though? And the second half of that verse only proves what I claim, "so that we might..." implies "might not" is in there. Showing the openness of the work Christ did.
John 6:37 is a proof-text, actually most of these are that don't really answer my question still of "when?"
Try it this way, were you forgiven before you repented yourself and trusted in Christ?
@Bill244888 bill you're right. The Arminians want to take away God's sovereignty to be able to bestow grace on whom He will. Their belief is centered around man, man making the right decision, man doing good works to earn a pass into Heaven, man having free will to frustrate God's attempt to save them. They have a man based religion where they are God and God must cooperate with them. It's sad because they ignore the scriptures and twist a few verses to try to fit their false doctrine.
"The Arminians want to take away God's sovereignty to be able to bestow grace on whom He will"
This sentence alone is a contradiction and IMPOSSIBILITY according to your worldview. In your Calvinist mind, ALL things are predetermined by God's sovereignty, meaning even this comment, message, and my views(which I'm not Arminian btw)---thus in your view God WANTS me this way. You affirm my free will to choose in your own comment and are disowning yours. Contradiction
"Also, if you're teaching the Limited Atonement... I'd say you fit the Gal 1:8-9 moreso than I in your claim--you teach Christ didn't die for all... if you teach that."
Do you believe that every single person ever born will go to heaven?
@Bill244888 Aristotle said we are Primordial matter and as such have no free will (indeterminateness). He goes on to say that God alone possesses determinateness (will) As such Aristotle holds that God is the supreme cause of good and evil since man can only do what God decrees. Augustine, a lawyer and professor of rhetoric (unsupported arguments intended to affect the thoughts or action of others) with a background in philosophy used Aristotle's 384-322bc heathen ideas in his interpretations.
@Bill244888 You know like Jn 3:16, Jn 5:24, you know the verses. Do you ever consider them when you think of your doctrine? The bible has 1189 chapters, 31,103 verses and 807,361 words every one of them the word of God. If you refuse to see free will in Johua 24:15 Choose you this day whom ye will serve; Joel 3:14 and it's valley of decision Isaiah 55:1 Ho, come ye to the waters. Rev 22:17 let him who will come and drink of the water of life freely. Isaiah 28:10-13
"Johua 24:15 Choose you this day whom ye will serve"
He's telling them to choose which false god they will serve. This is a choice that any sinner can and does make on a regular basis. That is not free will in regards to true salvation!
@Bill244888 Josh: Ro. 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? Where does that say it's not ours to choose? The results of the choice are plain. Isaiah 28:10 says line upon line, precept upon precept here a little there a little. Joel: but calvin says God made the decision in eternity past. What is God deciding and based on what if he already decreed their fate? Think!!
"“Come, everyone who thirsts, come to the waters; and he who has no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without price."
Do those "in the flesh" from Rom. 8:7-8 "thirst" for the things of God?
Rev. 22:17 - Again, do those "in the flesh" from Rom. 8:7-8 "thirst" for the things of God?
@Bill244888 No where do Isa 55. and Rev 22 restrict who can come. Oh by the way. Romans chapter 8 is addressing our life in this world. Is it after the flesh or after the Spirit? The penalty is death not hell just as the benefit is life and peace not heaven. You don't think a man goes to heaven because of his thoughts do you? Why do you think Ro 8:7,8 is to the lost, is your sin nature eradicated? Like I Jn. 1:5-10 Ro 8 is addressing the child of God's fellowship with his Father not the lost.
"Romans chapter 8 is addressing our life in this world."
On the contrary, Rom. 8:7-9 describes those who are "in the flesh" as opposed to those who are "in the Spirit", further clarifying with "Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him."
He is talking about the unsaved vs the saved, either "the Spirit of God dwells in you" or you are "in the flesh"
Can believers not "have the Spirit of God" dwelling in them?
@Bill244888 The Spirit of God resides in every believer from the moment of their new birth until they go to be with the Lord. Paul doesn't say that a Christian can't walk after the flesh in Romans 8 or anywhere else. You forget what he said in Ro. 7:15-25 particularly vs 23 and 24. Paul even says I am (not was) carnal, sold under sin in vs 14.The creature is still in the bondage of corruption awaiting the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. (Ro 8:21-23) If we say we have no sin we lie
"Paul doesn't say that a Christian can't walk after the flesh in Romans 8 or anywhere else. You forget what he said in Ro. 7:15-25 particularly vs 23 and 24. Paul even says I am (not was) carnal, sold under sin in vs 14."
Agreed, but his mind was set on the Spirit, hence the struggle with his flesh that he describes in verses 18 & 22-25
"You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him."
If the Spirit of God dwells in us, then we are no longer "in the flesh".
@Bill244888 I'd like to hear your testimony about being born again. I've never had a Calvinist tell me when he was born again and how it happened. At the age of 23 I was getting ready to go out do some coke and commit adultery. My wife was out of town. The TV was on and the program changed from cartoons to preaching on the cross. I was shaving, looking myself in the eyes I knew I was a sinner and called on the Lord for mercy. I deserved hell but Jesus saved me by his grace almost 34 years ago.
It was November of 1991 at Trinity Baptist Church. I couldn't even tell you what the sermon was about, but I was overcome by the guilt of my sin and rebellion and overwhelmed by the understanding of Christ's sacrifice for my sins. Since that day it has been an ongoing cycle of growth and stumbling, but praise God, He has promised to complete the work He began in me! (Phil. 1:6)
@Bill244888 I am happy to know that you have a tesimony and pray that you do grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. I wanted to read it because I am not your enemy. I have never trusted anything but Jesus death burial and resurrection to save me. Not my prayer, my church, or my accomplishments. Nothing but the blood of Jesus 'who loved us and washed us from our sins in his own blood'. (Rev 1:5) With that established let us continue our discussion or end it as brothers in Christ
We can debate the scriptures without becoming enemies, this is true. I do apologize for what may have seemed to be a harsh tone. This comes from my firm belief in the doctrines of grace that the Lord is truly the author and finisher of our faith. I would be happy to engage in further discussions in the future in the spirit of Prov. 27:17
@Bill244888 I agree. You have conducted yourself as a Christian and It's been nice to make your aquaintance. I realized long ago that a man doesn't have to agree with me on every detail to be saved. God speed to you as well my brother.
DO YOU EVER WONDER WHY THE WORLD IS SO FILLED WITH VIOLENCE, HATRED AND INSANITY? WELL, THE GOD OF CALVINISM IS CAUSING IT BECAUSE IT GIVES HIM PLEASURE TO SEE HIS OWN CREATION SELF-DESTRUCT. CHILD RAPE, MURDER, THIEVERY, FALSE WORSHIP...YES, IT'S ALL HIS DOING! REMEMBER THAT WHEN YOU SING TO HIM ON WEEKENDS AT CHURCH. WE PRAISE YOU CUZ YOU DECREE CHILD RAPE! WE LOVE YOU CALVI-GOD!
Im sorry to hear this from you, I thought you had read the bible at least one verse. Anwser this question to yourself. The "whosoever" that you speak to in John 3:16 the next few words after that is "Believe" in me, who do you think make people believe the gospel? There free will spirit. Do you think you could seek God with your hard so polluted as it is?? Please read Ephesian 1 and then we talk. But keep it free from insults.
@gigenam2000 I'm sorry that you are trapped in the demonic doctrines of John Calvin. I have read the Bible and can honestly say I don't see Calvinism anywhere in it unless you twist certain verses to make it Calvinistic. On top of his lies, John Calvin was a heartless murderer. I don't understand why rational people follow him rather than the example of Christ. Romans 10:14 asks an important question. How can people HEAR the gospel unless it is spoken to them?
I wouldn't waste my time. It's my experience that Arminians like to attack their own Calvinist strawman rather than what Refromed Theology actually teaches. They don't feel the need to actually familiarise themeselves with any of the Reformers at all in order to accurately understand and therefore offer any worthwhile critique. They'll revise history and appeal to emotionalism constantly rather than the text of scripture. If you love them you will pray for them.
I would love to know who this "my way" preacher is? What is he going to when God tells him: "it was not what you believe" but what I left in my Bible as a FULL revelation.
I came from a church just like this one, where you do make your own theology and don't preach about hell, nothing on Romans 9 because these passages are too tough for the church to understand. So they preach on topics of their own Saturday night revelation and not an expository message that center on God's total sovereign. Th
There is no "whosoever" in the greek text of John 3:16. The most accurate translation (if somewhat awkward sounding) is "every one believing". And if you apply correct exegesis and understand the context in which John constantly uses such language, it is in reference to believers and not some ill-thought-out universalism in which Jesus does not save perfectly ALL that the Father gives, but only some.
Promoting division in the body of Christ, calling other believers that you disagree with "heretics" does not help fulfill the Great Commission. In fact, unbelievers are laughing at us because we want to skewer each other over nonessentials. Do not want.
Jesus Christ came to bring division, not peace according to Luke 12:51. I will call false doctrine for what it is and you can't stop me. The Great Commission is utterly pointless if you believe in the doctrines of Calvinism. There's nothing more pointless than a Calvinist "missionary" or "pastor" if God has already saved the ones he has wanted to save and
So, you are trying to make the argument that God's sovereign choice of the "nation of gentiles"(?) caused the nation of Israel to questions His justice? Are not a people made up of persons?
Why is it acceptable that God could have a chosen people, but not chosen persons? Especially in light of passages like Eph. 1:3-6
Bill244888 3 days ago
@Bill244888
"God's sovereign choice of..gentiles(?) caused the nation of Israel to question His justice?"
Yes, this was prophesied and even quoted by Paul in Romans 10 to continue his argument. I would presume you're aware there were not chapters in Paul's original letter--his argument continues, and it clearly reveals what I'm saying. I told you, we can go into each single verse from Rom 9 that is quoted from the OT and prove that yes--the nation of Israel was upset(and misunderstood)...
droptozro 3 days ago
@Bill244888 ...how they were to inherit the land(Gal 3-4 explains this well, aligning with Acts 15). Go and read Gen 13:15--then see the footnote in your Bible, this is what Paul corrects in Gal 3:16. They questioned His justice because they thought that covenant was for physical national Israel, but the fact is that it was not. It was for Abraham and Jesus. Paul revealed the mystery of the Gospel(as you bring up Ephesians, see chap 3)--the unification of both into one covenant and Man, Jesus
droptozro 3 days ago
@Bill244888
"Why is it acceptable that God could have a chosen people, but not a chosen persons?..."Eph 1:3-6"
Glad you brought that up, compare Eph 1:3-12 with Rom 9:1-5... see how they align? I can show more verses to prove this if you're not convinced, but Eph 1:3-12 is speaking of the Jews(first to trust in Christ, v.12), then v.13-14 speaks of the Gentiles being added into the inheritance.
The point of God choosing the nation was to bring about the Messiah, and to make His name great.
droptozro 3 days ago
@Bill244888
Sorry, Romans 11 also continues the same argument to answer your first question. The second question I missed, yes a people is made up of persons. The difference also in God having chosen a nation is the purpose, for it was not for eternal salvation--even Gentiles sought after God(as shown by Rom 10-11). The point Paul is making in Rom 9 is that the Jews have no right to question God's opening up of the covenant to include Gentiles as His people. Each verse can prove this.
droptozro 3 days ago
@Bill244888
I implore you as a brother to see how if one rips out Rom 9:6-22 out of its context of the book---it changes the entire meaning of the argument Paul is making. It doesn't surprise me how one could be fooled by this chapter, but once you take the time to study the depth of Paul's argument and see how Scripture interprets Scripture---the Calvinist interpretation breaks down radically. Please take the time to look up what I ask and look up other things Paul quotes from the OT.
droptozro 3 days ago
Romans chapter 9
clintcharron17 6 days ago
@clintcharron17
You don't understand Romans 9, anyone who thinks this proves the Calvinist god's sovereignty doesn't look up anything Paul's quoting in the OT. Welcome to proof-texting, and horrid exegesis. You're reading it in a vacuum and don't understand the historical or Scriptural context. The one thing Calvinists think they have is exegesis and I find them to be the most eisegetical so many times. Look up what Paul is quoting in the OT, THEN come back and respond.
droptozro 3 days ago
@droptozro
"You don't understand Romans 9"
No, it is you who doesn't understand Romans 9.
Paul wasn't quoting the O.T. merely for a history lesson. His argument had a point, and that is that just as God sovereignly chose Jacob over Esau, so it is with everyone who is born again . . . "So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." (Rom. 9:16) and "So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills." (Rom. 9:18)
Bill244888 3 days ago
@Bill244888
"His argument had a point, and that is that just as God sovereignly chose Jacob over Esau, so it is with everyone who is born again"
WHOA what a false conclusion and a misunderstanding. Nothing there about salvation or being born again, talk about reading into the text. Are you actually willing to accept correction though?
Start with Rom 9:12--what is Paul quoting? Gen 25:23... what do Jacob/Esau represent, nations--not individuals. I will continue showing you this...
droptozro 3 days ago
@Bill244888
Next lets go with Roman 9:13... "Jacob I have loved, Esau I have hated"
Quoted from Malachi 1:2-3... notice the "us,"(in v.2) and the fact(not interpretation)--the FACT that Malachi was written hundreds of years after Jacob and Esau were dead, so it's clearly about the nation as a whole. Not about individuals and their salvation. Again, I can continue showing your error as Paul is consistent in his argumentation... the underlying thing you don't get, is it represents Jew/Gentile.
droptozro 3 days ago
@Bill244888
The Jews(and Jewish Christians to whom Paul is addressing for the first 11 chapters of Romans) did not understand how the Gentiles were being allowed into THEIR covenant. They were God's chosen nation, and they thought that only people who were physical descendants of Abraham would get the inheritance. This was even called out by Jesus in his parable way before Paul wrote this letter--see Matt 20:1-16, the people who have been serving God all along were complaining against Him.
droptozro 3 days ago
@Bill244888
So in this complaint, they thought they were God's chosen just because they were His physical nation and they were complaining that God was allowing others into His Kingdom at the last hour. The issue they didn't understand is the covenant was not to physical descendants--it was to the Seed(Christ, Gal 3-4), and those who abide in Him will receive the inheritance. I can show you this all verse by verse, Scripture interprets Scripture and you'll be refuted if you're willing.
droptozro 3 days ago
Excellent sermon of truth.
Duck4212 1 week ago
Well done!
edwardpf123 2 weeks ago
This is good. God bless you
Scripture is never wrong.
ladrev1257 3 weeks ago
Chew on this .. Isa. 14:24; 46:10-11 cf. Acts 15:18; Psa. 33:9-11; 139:16; Isa. 45:7; Amos 3:6; Lam. 3:38; Jer. 10:23 cf. Prov. 16:9, 33; 20:24; 2 Kings 19:25
ronnygann 4 weeks ago
Spurgeon: “Calvinism is the gospel and nothing else.” Warfield: “Calvinism … is the very breath of the nostrils of Christianity; without it Christianity cannot exist.” Talbot: “The doctrine of Calvinism ... is the true exposition of Scripture.” MacArthur: “The truths of Calvinism so much permeate the heart of the gospel message ... if you truly affirm the gospel you have already conceded the principle points of Calvinism.” Nuff said.
ronnygann 4 weeks ago
@ronnygann You're quoting men...I'm quoting the Bible...nuff said.
escapingplatoscave 4 weeks ago 2
"God did not say that man did not have the ability to trust, or to believe."
Has he ever actually studied his bible?
Rom. 8:7-8
"For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
Bill244888 1 month ago
This guy is the most biblically illiterate pastor I've ever heard.
Notice how his arguments are all based upon hum reason, logic, and understanding.
Bill244888 1 month ago
"How can you hold a man accountable for decisions that were not his?"
Gee, where have I heard this before?
Oh yea,
Rom. 9:19-21
"You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?"
Pride and arrogance run deep
Bill244888 1 month ago
@Bill244888 I guess it was God's will that John Calvin torture and burn people at the stake even though it says in the book of Revelation that unrepentant murderers will have their place in the lake of fire. John Calvin admitted he didn't understand the book of Revelation. Hmmm...I wonder why. God's will is that none perish, so either God is a liar or he can't express what he really desires in the Bible.
escapingplatoscave 1 month ago
@escapingplatoscave
Moses murdered a Roman, David conspired to have Uriah murdered so he could cover up his adultery with Bathsheba. Have you ripped the pentateuch and psalms out of your bible yet? Come on, they must be heretics, what are you waiting for?
Bill244888 1 month ago
@Bill244888 John Calvin didn't repent of his murders, he boasted of them and said he would do it all over again. He was a vile coward and since he avoided the book of Revelation, I'll address it. According to Revelation 21:8, he is roasting in eternal torment. Praise God.
escapingplatoscave 1 month ago
@escapingplatoscave
What is the name of the biography on Calvin you are getting your info from? Who is the author?
Bill244888 1 month ago
@escapingplatoscave
Calvin believed that Christ was the divine eternal Son of God. You better drop that belief as well.
Bill244888 1 month ago
@escapingplatoscave
"John Calvin didn't repent of his murders,"
So, you were at his deathbed? Who else was there?
Bill244888 1 month ago
@escapingplatoscave
2 Peter 3:9 is speaking to and about believers
V1 - "This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder,"
Who is he writing to? The "beloved"
What is the subject of this chapter? Peter is writing to believers encouraging them not to get discouraged when mockers claim that Christ is not returning.
"not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."
See Acts 11:18
Bill244888 1 month ago
@Bill244888 calvinists will say 2Pet 3:9 is referring only to believers. If so, why would believers need to come to repentance? Yes, he was speaking to them regarding God's will for ALL men. Lets here a response to Ezekiel 33:11 or 1 Tim 2:4-6. Calvinism is a wicked doctrine and certainly contradicts the bible.
34craigjan 2 weeks ago
@34craigjan
"why would believers need to come to repentance?"
Because God has decreed it as necessary for sinful men to be saved. Fortunately in His sovereignty He also grants it to us . . .
Acts. 11:18
"When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”
Bill244888 2 weeks ago
@34craigjan
"Yes, he was speaking to them regarding God's will for ALL men."
2 Pet. 3:9
"The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."
God is patient towards whom? "you"
The same "you" from verse 2 Pet. 3:1
Bill244888 2 weeks ago
@34craigjan
"Ezekiel 33:11"
There is no conflict with God's sovereign election here. Though God takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked it will surely happen. This passage is a mirror of Christ's words in Mark 1:15, yet Christ also says in Matt. 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
Bill244888 2 weeks ago
@34craigjan
Seeing that God's word will not return to Him void (Isa. 55:11), the call to repentance has either of 2 effects. Either it is empowered by the Holy Spirit to bring new spiritual life to dead sinners, or it will convict them on the day of judgment.
Bill244888 2 weeks ago
@34craigjan
"1 Tim 2:4-6"
Paul speaking is to Timothy (a Jew) and encouraging him to pray for kings and all who are in authority (not Jews). He reminds him that God desires all men (Jews and Gentiles) to be saved.
1 Tim. 2:5-6
"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time."
If Jesus paid the ransom for every single person why do some still go to hell?
Bill244888 2 weeks ago
@Bill244888 Actually Jesus said MOST will end up in hell, and they go there because they reject the provisions for salvation and stay in their sins. To say God ordains or decrees everything that comes to pass makes Him a wicked dictator. Have you watched "Is God the Author of Sin" by refuting calvinism on youtube? It is roughly 1 hr long but well worth it given the info provided. Check it out friend and then comment
34craigjan 2 weeks ago
@34craigjan
"Actually Jesus said MOST will end up in hell, and they go there because they reject the provisions for salvation and stay in their sins."
How do they stay in their sins if Jesus paid for them? Are you still in your sins?
Bill244888 2 weeks ago
@Bill244888 Please don't tell me you believe that Jesus paid for sins we didn't commit yet, because that is nowhere to be found in scripture. Does the bible not say we need to repent(turn from sin) and live a holy life, obedient to God?Are you using the grace of God as a license to sin? Read Heb 10:26-31 if you are.God's forgiveness is conditional and only applies to those that forsake their sin, trust in Christ, and actually obey Him(John 14:15, Heb 5:9) Jesus has made this possible for anyone
34craigjan 2 weeks ago
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@34craigjan
"Please don't tell me you believe that Jesus paid for sins we didn't commit yet, because that is nowhere to be found in scripture."
How many of your sins were committed after Jesus was crucified? Let's take a wild guess and say ALL OF THEM. So Christ's sacrifice is of no benefit to you then, right?
So, what obtains salvation for men . . . Christ's sacrifice or their "good works"?
(Before you answer, you might want to check Romans chapter 3)
Bill244888 2 weeks ago
@34craigjan
"Are you using the grace of God as a license to sin?"
Are you sinning by making a baseless accusation?
Speaking of Hebrews 10, Your warped view of Christ's sacrifice brings into to question you violating Heb. 10:29
Bill244888 2 weeks ago
@34craigjan
"God's forgiveness is conditional and only applies to those that forsake their sin, trust in Christ, and actually obey Him(John 14:15, Heb 5:9) Jesus has made this possible for anyone"
Agree with the first part of your statement. The problem you have is that you think you've generated repentance and faith on your own, which leads to boasting.
Scripture is clear that both repentance (Acts 11:18), and faith (Eph. 2:8) are given to us by God. Therefore, your final statement is false.
Bill244888 2 weeks ago
@Bill244888 Boasting? "The boastful shall not stand in His sight"(Psalms 5:5)Christ commands all men everwhere to repent(Acts 17:30).How are we unable to do so when Christ commands it? Also,original sin is false.Sin is transgression of God's Law(1 John 3:4),not some stuff passed through semen or blood.James 4:17 says a person must have knowledge to discern what sin is."For when the Gentiles,who have no law,do "by nature"the things of the law,these,though they have no law,are a law to themselves"
34craigjan 2 weeks ago
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@34craigjan
"How are we unable to do so when Christ commands it?"
Rom. 8:7-9
"For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you."
Until the Holy Spirit indwells us we are in the flesh and unable to please God. We can't repent, believe or obey Him. See John 3:7-8
Bill244888 2 weeks ago
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@34craigjan
"How are we unable to do so when Christ commands it?"
Rom. 8:7-9
"For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you."
Until the Holy Spirit indwells us we are in the flesh and unable to please God. We can't repent, believe or obey Him. See John 3:7-8
Bill244888 2 weeks ago
@34craigjan
John 1:9-13
"The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, yet the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own people did not receive Him. But to all who did receive Him, who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."
Why did they not know or receive Him? Rom. 8:5-8
Bill244888 2 weeks ago
@Bill244888 Many things you are quoting I am in agreement with, but God grants us His forgiveness upon us repenting and trusting in Christ. He promises to change us from inside out and to give us a heart of flesh that desires to live for Him as a result to us surrendering all. I have no comment on Rom 8:5-8. Is that supposed to support original sin? Yes, if we live after the flesh we will die.
34craigjan 2 weeks ago
@34craigjan
"God grants us His forgiveness upon us repenting and trusting in Christ"
This is where we part ways . . . It doesn't start with any action on our part, God grants us the faith (Eph. 2:8) and the repentance (Acts 11:18) to obtain salvation.
Bill244888 2 weeks ago
@Bill244888 so you are saying that we don't have freewill choice to accept this gift or not? Try reading Proverbs 1:23-29. You never responded to why God treated Cain as if he had freewill if he was already condemned in Adam. He should have had the worse "sinful nature" there is right? Read Gen 4:6,7
34craigjan 2 weeks ago
@34craigjan
Is Proverbs 1:23-29 actually speaking about salvation, or God's response to disobedience?
Bill244888 2 weeks ago
@Bill244888 That passage doesn't have to speak of salvation, but it shows our ability to accept or reject God's kindness and mercy.If calvinism is true, this wouldn't be the case
34craigjan 2 weeks ago
@34craigjan
Why do so many people have this twisted view of irresistible grace?
As I've mentioned in previous posts, before God makes us spiritually alive, we are slaves to sin with our minds darkened to the things of God and the reality of our sinful and condemned condition. Then the Holy Spirit opens our eyes not only to see the reality of our sinful condition, but to see Christ and the irresistible gift He has given us.
He doesn't take us against our will, He changes our will to see clearly.
Bill244888 2 weeks ago
@34craigjan
Think of it this way . . .
I set 2 glasses in front of you, one filled with your favorite beverage (say a cold glass of iced tea) the other a glass of anti-freeze. Which glass would you "choose". This is a picture of the moment God opens our eyes to the truth. Prior to that point, it's not a 50/50 chance on which one we will drink, we actually have a taste for anti-freeze and hate iced tea. That's called "in the flesh", "spiritually dead", etc. Exactly as Rom. 8:6-8 says.
Bill244888 2 weeks ago
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@34craigjan
"so you are saying that we don't have freewill choice to accept this gift or not?"
That's right. Prior to God making us alive we are slaves to sin . . .
Rom. 6:17-18
"But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness."
"Slaves of sin", "in the flesh", "spiritually dead" all the same, all unable to come to God.
Bill244888 2 weeks ago
@34craigjan
"Yes, if we live after the flesh we will die."
"Living in the flesh" is the state of every person before God makes us alive (Eph. 2:4-5).
Rom. 8:5-8 describes all of us before we were made alive, then verse 9 describes the transformation of being born again . . .
"You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. . ."
Anyone who has the Holy Spirit (born again) is no longer "in the flesh", and is able to please God.
Bill244888 2 weeks ago
@34craigjan Yes, we are called to live obedient lives, but this is something the Holy Spirit gives us the ability and desire to do when we are regenerated (2 Cor. 5:17). This is in response to what we have already received (Rom. 8:14-17) and is secured (John 10:28-29).
We can add nothing to our salvation! (Rom. 3:21-31)
Bill244888 2 weeks ago
@Bill244888 Did God ordain that Cain kill his brother Abel also and did he inherit Adam's "sinful nature"?
34craigjan 2 weeks ago
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@34craigjan
"Did God ordain that Cain kill his brother Abel?"
If it happened, then God ordained it. Now, if you don't believe God is sovereign over His creation, you may have some trouble accepting this, but to those of us who know God as our sovereign Lord and creator this is clearly defended in scripture.
Eph. 1:11
"In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, . . ."
Bill244888 2 weeks ago
@34craigjan
"did he (Cain) inherit Adam's "sinful nature"?"
Yes, as did every single person after him. (see Romans 5)
Bill244888 2 weeks ago
@Bill244888 If Cain inherited some "sinful nature", he wouldn't have had the choice whether to kill his brother or not. Read Gen 3:16-24 and Gen 4:6,7 and you will see this is not the case. Do you use the NIV, because "sinful nature" is not found in the greek. Sarx is the greek word for "flesh" and flesh alone is not sinful. Calvinists misinterpret Rom 5. If you read verse 12 you will see why death spread to all men, why?, because all sinned, not all sinned in Adam.
34craigjan 2 weeks ago
@34craigjan
"Calvinists misinterpret Rom 5. If you read verse 12 you will see why death spread to all men, why?, because all sinned, not all sinned in Adam."
You should read a little further . . .
Rom. 5:18-19
"Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous."
Romans 5:18-19 (ESV)
Bill244888 2 weeks ago
@Bill244888 Rom 5:18,19- so who were the ones that weren't made sinners? Jesus made it possible for all to become righteous through Him, and Adam made it possible for all to become sinners. We know by other scriptures that all men will not be justified by Christ's righteousness because He said many are on the broad road to destruction. You are using universalism to justify your theology. Did you ever view that video I cited? Just curious
34craigjan 2 weeks ago
@Bill244888 How is my view of Christ's sacrifice and atonement "warped"? Acts 11:18 is simply stating that the Gentiles, just as the Jews, have been offered the same benefits of the atonement. I have no issue with Eph 2:8,9. Salvation isn't something we earn, but we will obey God and do good works as a result. (Eph 2:10, James 2:20-24, Colossians 1:10, 1 John 3:7)
34craigjan 2 weeks ago
@34craigjan
"Acts 11:18 is simply stating that the Gentiles, just as the Jews, have been offered the same benefits of the atonement."
It wasn't an offer, they were granted repentance which leads to life. They were made spiritually alive (Eph. 2:4-5). Being born again is something that happens to us apart from any effort on our part.
John 3:3
"Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
We can not initiate our own birth.
Bill244888 2 weeks ago
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@34craigjan
"How is my view of Christ's sacrifice and atonement "warped"? "
By adding works you are claiming His sacrifice in itself was not fully sufficient to secure our salvation. You claim that our works add to it to complete it.
What were Christ's last words on the cross? "IT IS FINISHED!"
We can not, nor need not add anything to His finished work in securing our salvation.
Bill244888 2 weeks ago
@Bill244888 So does ignorance. The Stoics who Paul addressed in Acts17 had a great following in Rome also. They held the teachings of Plato and Aristotle, detailed of divine control. Paul was anticipating the question of these philosophers not affirming their teachings. He condemned philosophy in Col. 2:8 warning it would spoil a man. Study God's dealing with the 'clay' in Isaiah 29:16; 64:8; Jer. 18:10. The clay has a choice, it can rebel and it can repent. God sovereignly grants man free will.
mwilson70201 2 weeks ago
@mwilson70201
Isa. 29:16
"You turn things upside down! Shall the potter be regarded as the clay, that the thing made should say of its maker, “He did not make me”; or the thing formed say of him who formed it, “He has no understanding”?"
God is condemning the futile arrogance of the people (the clay). Just because they thought they were outside of God's control doesn't mean they were.
Bill244888 1 week ago
@Bill244888 Why didn't you expound the rest of the references? In Is. 64:18 the clay acknowledges God as it's creator, that's some pretty smart clay. In Jer 18:1-10 God says the clay has the choice to repent or continue on the path to judgment. This is applied not only to God's elect nation Israel but to every nation. Consider Ninevah, Jonah knew if they repented God would have mercy on them, he knew the LORD is a gracious God and merciful, slow to anger and great of kindness. Just read Joel 4.
mwilson70201 1 week ago
@mwilson70201
The repentance which leads to life is granted to individuals by God entirely at His sovereign discretion.
Acts 11:18
"When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”
So, are you claiming to be "smart clay" or not?
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
Bill244888 1 week ago
@Bill244888 How does Jewish converts looking for Jesus to set up the Messianic kingdom on earth beingsurprised God granted Gentiles repentance amount to God's decreeing their salvation? To grant and decree are different things. The object of Eph 2:8 is grace not faith. The grace received thru faith is the gift of God. Eph 3:7 "the gift of the grace (not faith) of God." The gift Ro. 5:15,16 is imputed righteousness Ro 5:17, & eternal life Ro 6:23 not faith. The gift is received by faith.
mwilson70201 1 week ago
@mwilson70201
"How does Jewish converts looking for Jesus to set up the Messianic kingdom on earth beingsurprised God granted Gentiles repentance amount to God's decreeing their salvation?"
The point is that the repentance needed for salvation did not come from within them, but from God. They did not decide in their sin darkened minds to repent. The ability to repent was GIVEN to them.
"The object of Eph 2:8 is grace not faith." Based upon what, your opinion, your churches tradition?
Bill244888 1 week ago
@Bill244888 Grant- to allow to have; to consent. To permit as a priviledge. To bestow. To transfer propery by deed. To concede, acknowledge. The statement is a response to the Gentiles speaking in tongues ( Acts10:45,46) the Jews had no concept of Calvin's doctrine of election or the unity of all believers revealed by Paul at this time. Eph 2: The book, received thru the mail and not from the store was a gift. What is the subject of this sentence? The subject is the object. Basic grammar.
mwilson70201 1 week ago
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@mwilson70201
"The statement is a response to the Gentiles speaking in tongues ( Acts10:45,46)"
Acts 11:17-18
"If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?” When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”
"repentance that leads to life" no mention of their gift of tongues.
Hmm?
Bill244888 1 week ago
@mwilson70201
"Eph 2: The book, received thru the mail and not from the store was a gift. What is the subject of this sentence? The subject is the object."
What is the main point of Eph, 2:8? That there is no room for boasting in one's salvation, yet you claim that "smart clay" recognize who God is and repent. Sounds like boasting to me.
Therefore, I will maintain my assertion that grace, faith, and salvation are all gifts of God so no one may boast of being "smart clay".
Bill244888 1 week ago
@Bill244888 In Eph 2 the subject is God's grace which is received by faith not by our own efforts. Works will only earn a man a front row seat in hell. Agreeing you deserve hell and crying out for mercy hardly amounts to trying to earn God's favour, it is accepting his grace by faith. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law (not gift) of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. (Romans 3:27,28)
mwilson70201 1 week ago
@mwilson70201
"In Eph 2 the subject is God's grace . . ."
What about your claim concerning "smart clay"?
Bill244888 1 week ago
@Bill244888 The clay is not an inanimte substance, it is living breathing talking thinking human beings. You know, sinners. The people Christ died to save.
mwilson70201 1 week ago
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@mwilson70201
"The clay is not an inanimte substance, it is living breathing talking thinking human beings."
You claim the clay (human beings) are "smart" when they recognize who God is and turn to Him. What does that make those who don't?
How is this not boasting?
Bill244888 1 week ago
@mwilson70201
"The object of Eph 2:8 is grace not faith."
Phil. 1:29
"For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in Him but also suffer for His sake," - faith is granted by God.
Rom. 12:
"For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned." - Where did the faith come from? God!
Bill244888 1 week ago
@Bill244888 Again I refer you to the definition of 'granted'. To suffer for Christ sake is a great priviledge but not all Christians do. Acts 5:41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name. ...for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. (Ro 10:12,13,17) What does 'all' mean?
mwilson70201 1 week ago
@mwilson70201
"In Is. 64:18 the clay acknowledges God as it's creator, that's some pretty smart clay."
No, that's some regenerated clay.
before God regenerates us we are as Romans 8:7-8 describes . . .
"For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
Bill244888 1 week ago
@Bill244888 Re Isa No one was regenerated until after the resurrection of Christ. Ro 8:7,8 Has your carnal mind been eradicated? Can you sin? Then you can walk in the flesh and displease God. If you don't walk after the Spirit you have condemnation as a child of God, it's called conviction, guilt, broken fellowship as in I Jn 1:5-10. A child of God may lose his joy, assurance, and break fellowship with God but he can never lose his salvation. We are under the law of liberty not the law of Moses.
mwilson70201 1 week ago
@mwilson70201
"God sovereignly grants man free will." Where exactly is that verse in regards to salvation?
Bill244888 1 week ago
@Bill244888 Show me a verse that says he doesn't. Show me the verse that says Esau went to hell or where God said he hated the man before he was born. You subject scripture to the doctrine of calvinism instead of subjecting your doctrine to scripture. You like the clay in Isa. 29 have turned things upside down and made God fit what you think he should be. Calvin got it from Augustine who got from Plato and Aristotle. In Aristotle's book Metaphysics and you find Calvin's source for his ideas.
mwilson70201 1 week ago
@mwilson70201
"Show me a verse that says he doesn't."
John 1:13
"who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."
"Show me the verse that says Esau went to hell or where God said he hated the man before he was born."
Rom. 9:11-13
"though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, . . . “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
Bill244888 1 week ago
@Bill244888 You skipped Jn 1:12 " But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." First belief then the power and new birth. Ro 9:11-13 The election vs 11 was to be the heir of Issac not to heaven or hell. Vs 12 quotes Gen 25:23, no hell there. Vs 13 quotes a statement made 1500 years after Esau was born in Malachi 1:2 not before.
mwilson70201 1 week ago
@mwilson70201
John 1:12-13
"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."
What does that prove? The were still "born not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."
They did not of their own "free will" decide to become born again.
Bill244888 1 week ago
@mwilson70201
On the contrary, it seems as though you have succumbed to the heresy of Pelagius, Arminius, and Finney in idolizing the supposed "free will of man".
The problem with that theory is it runs contrary to the clear teaching of scripture. Romans 6:17-18 could not be any more plain that we are slaves to sin prior to being born again and then we are set free, we don't set ourselves free, but we are set free from slavery to sin to become slaves of righteousness.
Bill244888 1 week ago
@Bill244888 You are mistaken, Arminius added works to faith to assure salvation an idea condemned by Paul in Gal 2:21-3:4. I am not an Arminian or a Calvinist. I am a bible believing son of God who is kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation. You need a real bible, it will clear up a lot of things for you. The lost are servants of sin, slaves don't receive wages servants do. We are 'made' free typifying progressive sanctification as we grow in grace and knowledge not set free.
mwilson70201 1 week ago
@mwilson70201
"You need a real bible"
What real bible do I need? Let me guess, a KJV? The same KJV that was translated by a group of men who were mostly Calvinists? The same "inerrant" KJV that originally referred to Ruth as "he" and had to be revised. Should I read a 1611 KJV that contained the apocrypha? Or should I read one of the other revisions of the only "inspired" english translation? If it was truly "inspired" why did it need to be revised?
Bill244888 1 week ago
@Bill244888 The text used by new version translators Vatacanus, Sanaiticus, and Alexandrius contain the apocrapha as ppart of the canon of scripture. Luther and the AV translators seperated it from the canonical text and inserted it between testaments as an historical document not the word of God. This fact though well known is ignored by the enemies of God's word. As for the 'he' in Ruth you do know the type was hand set don't you? It was a printers not a translators error. Your grabbing straws
mwilson70201 1 week ago
@Bill244888 The AV has never been revised. Printers errors were addressed in subsequent editions and spelling was corrected with the standardization of the written English language that is not revision it's refining. Seriously, are you going to try to redirect the discussion because you can't handle the original subject? Why can't you boys ever stay on point? You still haven't refuted a word I've said unless you think those feeble talking points are getting the job done. Not hardly friend.
mwilson70201 1 week ago
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@mwilson70201
"Why can't you boys ever stay on point?"
You're the one who brought up my inferior bible, not me.
"The AV has never been revised." ???
1760 Cambridge edition
1769 Oxford edition (the text of almost all currently used KJV bibles by the way)
I'm not saying that the KJV should not to be used, but claims of it being divinely inspired and superior to any modern translation are a bit of a stretch.
Bill244888 1 week ago
@Bill244888
Are you not aware that Augustine was a former Manichaean Gnostic of 9 years? And how clearly his past views seeped into his theology? Much of the church just swallows his views, sadly not realize he was also the father of Roman Catholicism, he taught that Mary was sinless when Christ was born through her? And you trust the councils who condemned Pelagius when he was not even there to represent himself?(formed by Augustine). Pelagius was sound in doctrine to the councils he appeared
droptozro 1 week ago
@Bill244888
I'm just saying too, I'm not here to defend the men or the councils--but if you're going to try and appeal to that lineage, you would be beaten. Augustine/Calvinism has been condemned at more councils than (semi)Pelagianism... you should REALLY look into it more. Even in the Synod of Dort--the standard for condemnation was not the Scriptures, but their catechisms. I'm not Arminian either--I stand on the Scriptures reasonably that Calvinists horridly misunderstand in context.
droptozro 1 week ago
@Bill244888
And if you're condemning "free will" because we're a slave of sin prior to coming to Him... you don't understand free will. You're setting up a straw man of it to knock down. We have had the ability to obey, we have chosen not to and become a slave. Then we were in bondage to sins. And to act so rigidly is to forget that people have escaped sins WITHOUT Christ(such as a drug addict becoming free). But that doesn't forgive them obviously. We still must die daily(our will).
droptozro 1 week ago
@droptozro
"And to act so rigidly is to forget that people have escaped sins WITHOUT Christ"
Are you actually claiming another remedy for man's sins?
Gal. 1:8-9
"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed."
Are you sure you want to say that?
Bill244888 1 week ago
@Bill244888
You think it's a different gospel to claim someone's gotten out of sin without Christ by their own will power and others? Are you denying that people have stopped using drugs(sorcery) by visiting rehab centers? That would be the bigger denial. Of course with Christ it's even easier since He can remove it like -snap- THAT.. but that's obviously showing a will.
Those who SIN are slaves of sin, it's not the other way around. Logic speaks well, one must murder to become a murderer
droptozro 1 week ago
@droptozro
"You think it's a different gospel to claim someone's gotten out of sin without Christ by their own will power and others?"
I'm not saying it, God's word does . . .
Heb. 9:22
"Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins."
Bill244888 1 week ago
@Bill244888
"I'm not saying it, God's word does... Heb 9:22"
Yeah, you're still not reading my full arguments---this is a straw-man. I never said someone was FORGIVEN(or cleansed) for stopping their sin. I know alcoholics who'd given up their sin(drunkenness) before truly submitting to Christ--doesn't mean they're cleansed for those sins. I even gave up drunkenness of my own will for 6 months(personal choice to go that long) when I was a sinner. Read my full arguments, be reasonable.
droptozro 1 week ago
@Bill244888
Let alone the fact that I admitted they cannot be forgiven just because they stop using drugs. That's just a part of the Gospel to be freed from sin, the major part is the forgiveness through Christ's blood--which cannot be done just by someone quitting a sin by their own power. I remember as an unbeliever--I tried giving up one of my sexual sins of my own power, and I lasted about a week. I was a slave of it, and when He freed me it was gone! Praise Him! (stop strawmanning)
droptozro 1 week ago
@Bill244888
Also, if you're teaching the Limited Atonement... I'd say you fit the Gal 1:8-9 moreso than I in your claim--you teach Christ didn't die for all... if you teach that. That's just blindness--a twisting of a few select verses to deny the obvious truth of all the rest in their context.
You should take some time to study Gnosticism from the Ante-Nicene church(there was a church before Augustine)--and realize that Calvinism gets its roots in semi-Gnosticism, not in the original church
droptozro 1 week ago
@droptozro
O.K. here's the questions no one seems to be able to answer . . .
If Christ died to pay for every single person's sins then why are so many still condemned to hell?
Bill244888 1 week ago
@Bill244888 I know, I know. Because man has free will and some choose to reject the truth for whatever reason. WHy don't you and droptozro finish up and then we can continue our discussion. I don't like to gang up on a man. You are not making a concession your accepting a courtesy. I'll bow out until you contact me again. I'll be praying for you.
mwilson70201 1 week ago
@Bill244888
"O.K. here's the questions.. answer..
If Christ died to pay for every single person's sins then why are so many still condemned to hell?"
This question is faulty, that's why anyone who attempts to directly answer would fall into your trap. It's based on improper presuppositions that the atonement was literal in the sense that all person's sins were LITERALLY on Jesus on the cross, rather than the fact that it was a general atonement to forgive ANYONE who trusts in the work He did.
droptozro 1 week ago
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@droptozro
"It's based on improper presuppositions that the atonement was literal in the sense that all person's sins were LITERALLY on Jesus on the cross, rather than the fact that it was a general atonement to forgive ANYONE who trusts in the work He did."
So, Jesus didn't actually atone for anyone's sins? If no one would have "chosen" to come to Him His death would have been in vain, no?
Bill244888 1 week ago
@droptozro
"It's based on improper presuppositions that the atonement was literal in the sense that all person's sins were LITERALLY on Jesus on the cross,"
I think someone needs to spend some time reading their bible . . .
Heb.9:27-28
"And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him."
Bill244888 1 week ago
@Bill244888
I've read my Bible---you aren't thinking logically or even properly period. It's a representation of what occurred. Sins are not physical things, but actions---transgression of the law according to 1 John. Do you think there was a literal physical PILE OF SINS on Jesus? Or on the scapegoat in the OT? I hope you don't say "yes," or I'll await the Scripture that says so... I'm a literalist too in the general sense with text, but I don't think this is literal but spiritual.
droptozro 1 week ago
@droptozro
"Sins are not physical things, but actions---transgression of the law according to 1 John. Do you think there was a literal physical PILE OF SINS on Jesus?"
The sins of men are surely numbered (Amos 5:12) and there is not one that will go unpunished, either upon Christ at the cross for the elect (Matt. 1:21; Matt. 26:28), or upon each of the reprobate for their own sins (Rev. 20:12-15).
Bill244888 1 week ago
@Bill244888
Yeah I still don't think you understand my objection... "my people" in that context would have been Jews in Matt 1:21. Matt 26:28 just says for the forgiveness of sins, thus still proving my view. And Revelation 20:12-15 still doesn't say sins are physical. The Amos 5 and Rev 20 verse just prove they're recorded, which even I agree with... I said "were there literal physical sins on Jesus' back on the cross?" Bearing burdens/sins doesn't mean it was physical. Show Scripture.
droptozro 1 week ago
@Bill244888
Could you actually respond to my questions and text too?... it's a good part of a reasonable dialogue to answer my questions(or show why they're faulty if they are) in order to have a critical discussion and not end up in fallacious argumentation. Otherwise just like most ALL of my discussions--I post questions/Scripture and others don't respond, they post their own on this endless run while I criticize theirs and they offer none to my own. It's a one-sided red herring debate
droptozro 1 week ago
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@droptozro
"rather than the fact that it was a general atonement to forgive ANYONE who trusts in the work He did."
I tried your theory, it doesn't fit . . .
Eph. 1:4-5
"even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will,"
John 1:12-13
"who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."
Bill244888 1 week ago
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@droptozro
"rather than the fact that it was a general atonement to forgive ANYONE who trusts in the work He did."
Who sins did Jesus die to atone for?
Eph. 5:25
"Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,"
John 6:37
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."
John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."
Bill244888 1 week ago
@Bill244888
..to follow up your faulty question, I'll ask you one.
What does Scripture say about WHEN(in time) someone(a believer) is forgiven? Were they forgiven at the cross when Christ died(2000 years ago)? Or were they forgiven when they repented and put faith in the work of the cross?
Look at 1 John 1:9(spoken to believers)--cleansed when confessed
Acts 3:19(spoken to Jews)--forgiven when repent and turn to God
Our atonement views are what differ presuppostionally. Show me yours.
droptozro 1 week ago
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@Bill244888
..to follow up your faulty question, I'll ask you some.
What does Scripture say about WHEN(in time) someone(a believer) is forgiven? Were they forgiven at the cross when Christ died(2000 years ago)? Or were they forgiven when they repented and put faith in the work of the cross?
Look at 1 John 1:9(spoken to believers)--cleansed when confessed
Acts 3:19(spoken to Jews)--forgiven when repent and turn to God
Our atonement views are what differ presuppostionally. Show me yours.
droptozro 1 week ago
@Bill244888
..to follow up your faulty question, I'll ask you some.
What does Scripture say about WHEN(in time) someone(a believer) is forgiven? Were they forgiven at the cross when Christ died(2000 years ago)? Or were they forgiven when they repented and put faith in the work of the cross?
Look at 1 John 1:9(spoken to believers)--cleansed when confessed
Acts 3:19(spoken to Jews)--forgiven when repent and turn to God
Our atonement views are what differ presuppostionally. Show me yours
droptozro 1 week ago
@droptozro
"What does Scripture say about WHEN(in time) someone(a believer) is forgiven?"
God's forgiveness involves a just payment being rendered for sin (Heb. 9:22). For the elect the payment was rendered in full on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24). All of the sins of the elect were paid in full at that time. While we must still enter through the doorway of repentance and faith (Mark 1:14-15) there is never any risk of one of God's elect dying in a state of unforgiveness (John 6:37).
Bill244888 1 week ago
@Bill244888
Heb 9;22-agreed. Doesn't answer "when?"
1 Peter 2:24, yes showing what our Savior went through--literal or spiritual though? And the second half of that verse only proves what I claim, "so that we might..." implies "might not" is in there. Showing the openness of the work Christ did.
John 6:37 is a proof-text, actually most of these are that don't really answer my question still of "when?"
Try it this way, were you forgiven before you repented yourself and trusted in Christ?
droptozro 1 week ago
@Bill244888 bill you're right. The Arminians want to take away God's sovereignty to be able to bestow grace on whom He will. Their belief is centered around man, man making the right decision, man doing good works to earn a pass into Heaven, man having free will to frustrate God's attempt to save them. They have a man based religion where they are God and God must cooperate with them. It's sad because they ignore the scriptures and twist a few verses to try to fit their false doctrine.
JesusIsTheOneWay 1 week ago
@JesusIsTheOneWay
Yes, their idol seems to be their supposed "free will". It reigns supreme based upon what I've seen of their arguments.
Bill244888 1 week ago
@JesusIsTheOneWay
"The Arminians want to take away God's sovereignty to be able to bestow grace on whom He will"
This sentence alone is a contradiction and IMPOSSIBILITY according to your worldview. In your Calvinist mind, ALL things are predetermined by God's sovereignty, meaning even this comment, message, and my views(which I'm not Arminian btw)---thus in your view God WANTS me this way. You affirm my free will to choose in your own comment and are disowning yours. Contradiction
droptozro 3 days ago
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@droptozro
"Also, if you're teaching the Limited Atonement... I'd say you fit the Gal 1:8-9 moreso than I in your claim--you teach Christ didn't die for all... if you teach that."
Do you believe that every single person ever born will go to heaven?
Bill244888 1 week ago
@Bill244888 Aristotle said we are Primordial matter and as such have no free will (indeterminateness). He goes on to say that God alone possesses determinateness (will) As such Aristotle holds that God is the supreme cause of good and evil since man can only do what God decrees. Augustine, a lawyer and professor of rhetoric (unsupported arguments intended to affect the thoughts or action of others) with a background in philosophy used Aristotle's 384-322bc heathen ideas in his interpretations.
mwilson70201 1 week ago
@mwilson70201
I really could care less what Aristotle said. The bottom line is what does divinely inspired scripture teach.
Now, about that verse I asked you about concerning God granting man "free will" in regards to salvation . . .
Bill244888 1 week ago
@Bill244888 You know like Jn 3:16, Jn 5:24, you know the verses. Do you ever consider them when you think of your doctrine? The bible has 1189 chapters, 31,103 verses and 807,361 words every one of them the word of God. If you refuse to see free will in Johua 24:15 Choose you this day whom ye will serve; Joel 3:14 and it's valley of decision Isaiah 55:1 Ho, come ye to the waters. Rev 22:17 let him who will come and drink of the water of life freely. Isaiah 28:10-13
mwilson70201 1 week ago
@mwilson70201
"Johua 24:15 Choose you this day whom ye will serve"
He's telling them to choose which false god they will serve. This is a choice that any sinner can and does make on a regular basis. That is not free will in regards to true salvation!
"Joel 3:14 and it's valley of decision"
The same valley (Jehoshaphat) from Joel 3:2 where GOD will pass judgment and make HIS decision concerning them. That's 0 for 2 . . .
The subject is man's "free will" in SALVATION, right?
Bill244888 1 week ago
@Bill244888 Josh: Ro. 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? Where does that say it's not ours to choose? The results of the choice are plain. Isaiah 28:10 says line upon line, precept upon precept here a little there a little. Joel: but calvin says God made the decision in eternity past. What is God deciding and based on what if he already decreed their fate? Think!!
mwilson70201 1 week ago
@mwilson70201
"Isaiah 55:1"
"“Come, everyone who thirsts, come to the waters; and he who has no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without price."
Do those "in the flesh" from Rom. 8:7-8 "thirst" for the things of God?
Rev. 22:17 - Again, do those "in the flesh" from Rom. 8:7-8 "thirst" for the things of God?
Bill244888 1 week ago
@Bill244888 No where do Isa 55. and Rev 22 restrict who can come. Oh by the way. Romans chapter 8 is addressing our life in this world. Is it after the flesh or after the Spirit? The penalty is death not hell just as the benefit is life and peace not heaven. You don't think a man goes to heaven because of his thoughts do you? Why do you think Ro 8:7,8 is to the lost, is your sin nature eradicated? Like I Jn. 1:5-10 Ro 8 is addressing the child of God's fellowship with his Father not the lost.
mwilson70201 1 week ago
@mwilson70201
"Romans chapter 8 is addressing our life in this world."
On the contrary, Rom. 8:7-9 describes those who are "in the flesh" as opposed to those who are "in the Spirit", further clarifying with "Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him."
He is talking about the unsaved vs the saved, either "the Spirit of God dwells in you" or you are "in the flesh"
Can believers not "have the Spirit of God" dwelling in them?
Bill244888 1 week ago
@Bill244888 The Spirit of God resides in every believer from the moment of their new birth until they go to be with the Lord. Paul doesn't say that a Christian can't walk after the flesh in Romans 8 or anywhere else. You forget what he said in Ro. 7:15-25 particularly vs 23 and 24. Paul even says I am (not was) carnal, sold under sin in vs 14.The creature is still in the bondage of corruption awaiting the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. (Ro 8:21-23) If we say we have no sin we lie
mwilson70201 1 week ago
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@mwilson70201
"Paul doesn't say that a Christian can't walk after the flesh in Romans 8 or anywhere else. You forget what he said in Ro. 7:15-25 particularly vs 23 and 24. Paul even says I am (not was) carnal, sold under sin in vs 14."
Agreed, but his mind was set on the Spirit, hence the struggle with his flesh that he describes in verses 18 & 22-25
Bill244888 1 week ago
@mwilson70201
Rom. 8:9
"You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him."
If the Spirit of God dwells in us, then we are no longer "in the flesh".
Bill244888 1 week ago
@Bill244888 I'd like to hear your testimony about being born again. I've never had a Calvinist tell me when he was born again and how it happened. At the age of 23 I was getting ready to go out do some coke and commit adultery. My wife was out of town. The TV was on and the program changed from cartoons to preaching on the cross. I was shaving, looking myself in the eyes I knew I was a sinner and called on the Lord for mercy. I deserved hell but Jesus saved me by his grace almost 34 years ago.
mwilson70201 1 week ago
@mwilson70201
It was November of 1991 at Trinity Baptist Church. I couldn't even tell you what the sermon was about, but I was overcome by the guilt of my sin and rebellion and overwhelmed by the understanding of Christ's sacrifice for my sins. Since that day it has been an ongoing cycle of growth and stumbling, but praise God, He has promised to complete the work He began in me! (Phil. 1:6)
Bill244888 1 week ago
@Bill244888 I am happy to know that you have a tesimony and pray that you do grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. I wanted to read it because I am not your enemy. I have never trusted anything but Jesus death burial and resurrection to save me. Not my prayer, my church, or my accomplishments. Nothing but the blood of Jesus 'who loved us and washed us from our sins in his own blood'. (Rev 1:5) With that established let us continue our discussion or end it as brothers in Christ
mwilson70201 1 week ago
@mwilson70201
We can debate the scriptures without becoming enemies, this is true. I do apologize for what may have seemed to be a harsh tone. This comes from my firm belief in the doctrines of grace that the Lord is truly the author and finisher of our faith. I would be happy to engage in further discussions in the future in the spirit of Prov. 27:17
God's speed my brother!
Bill244888 1 week ago
@Bill244888 I agree. You have conducted yourself as a Christian and It's been nice to make your aquaintance. I realized long ago that a man doesn't have to agree with me on every detail to be saved. God speed to you as well my brother.
mwilson70201 1 week ago
"It's a wide movement."
It's orthodox Christianity for the last 500+ years!
Bill244888 1 month ago
is this man a pastor?
Gideom007 1 month ago
Thank God I'm a monergist.
NealMcCrispy 1 month ago
@NealMcCrispy Thank God I'm a Biblicist.
escapingplatoscave 1 month ago
Calvinism will send someone straight to hell. 1 Timothy 4:10
jacksmack77 1 month ago
@jacksmack77
Ah, there's the coward Jacksmack. The guy who will post on other people's videos and then block you from posting on his when you disagree with him.
Bill244888 1 month ago
DO YOU EVER WONDER WHY THE WORLD IS SO FILLED WITH VIOLENCE, HATRED AND INSANITY? WELL, THE GOD OF CALVINISM IS CAUSING IT BECAUSE IT GIVES HIM PLEASURE TO SEE HIS OWN CREATION SELF-DESTRUCT. CHILD RAPE, MURDER, THIEVERY, FALSE WORSHIP...YES, IT'S ALL HIS DOING! REMEMBER THAT WHEN YOU SING TO HIM ON WEEKENDS AT CHURCH. WE PRAISE YOU CUZ YOU DECREE CHILD RAPE! WE LOVE YOU CALVI-GOD!
escapingplatoscave 2 months ago
@escapingplatoscave
Im sorry to hear this from you, I thought you had read the bible at least one verse. Anwser this question to yourself. The "whosoever" that you speak to in John 3:16 the next few words after that is "Believe" in me, who do you think make people believe the gospel? There free will spirit. Do you think you could seek God with your hard so polluted as it is?? Please read Ephesian 1 and then we talk. But keep it free from insults.
gigenam2000 2 months ago
@gigenam2000 I'm sorry that you are trapped in the demonic doctrines of John Calvin. I have read the Bible and can honestly say I don't see Calvinism anywhere in it unless you twist certain verses to make it Calvinistic. On top of his lies, John Calvin was a heartless murderer. I don't understand why rational people follow him rather than the example of Christ. Romans 10:14 asks an important question. How can people HEAR the gospel unless it is spoken to them?
escapingplatoscave 2 months ago
@gigenam2000
I wouldn't waste my time. It's my experience that Arminians like to attack their own Calvinist strawman rather than what Refromed Theology actually teaches. They don't feel the need to actually familiarise themeselves with any of the Reformers at all in order to accurately understand and therefore offer any worthwhile critique. They'll revise history and appeal to emotionalism constantly rather than the text of scripture. If you love them you will pray for them.
Keruaran 1 month ago
I would love to know who this "my way" preacher is? What is he going to when God tells him: "it was not what you believe" but what I left in my Bible as a FULL revelation.
I came from a church just like this one, where you do make your own theology and don't preach about hell, nothing on Romans 9 because these passages are too tough for the church to understand. So they preach on topics of their own Saturday night revelation and not an expository message that center on God's total sovereign. Th
gigenam2000 2 months ago
@gigenam2000 This is GOD'S way. He said "whosoever" whenever he was talking about salvation. Any one who wants it, can have it.
escapingplatoscave 2 months ago
@escapingplatoscave
Would that be those that seek after God?
Keruaran 2 months ago
@escapingplatoscave
There is no "whosoever" in the greek text of John 3:16. The most accurate translation (if somewhat awkward sounding) is "every one believing". And if you apply correct exegesis and understand the context in which John constantly uses such language, it is in reference to believers and not some ill-thought-out universalism in which Jesus does not save perfectly ALL that the Father gives, but only some.
The Jesus of scripture loses NONE.
Keruaran 1 month ago
Promoting division in the body of Christ, calling other believers that you disagree with "heretics" does not help fulfill the Great Commission. In fact, unbelievers are laughing at us because we want to skewer each other over nonessentials. Do not want.
snigglefritz12345 2 months ago
@snigglefritz12345
Jesus Christ came to bring division, not peace according to Luke 12:51. I will call false doctrine for what it is and you can't stop me. The Great Commission is utterly pointless if you believe in the doctrines of Calvinism. There's nothing more pointless than a Calvinist "missionary" or "pastor" if God has already saved the ones he has wanted to save and