Bib2. Gospel of Luke, Marcion, Theophilus, and The Simple Solution. Bible Dates 2

[pandirasbox]

Mark is a readers digest of Matthew ;)

[jamesbonq]

It doesn't make any sense for JM to quote Marcion, since he hated him. I have only looked through JM's first apology and his dialogue with Trypho, but I could not find any quotes that need to be attributed to Luke. Everything can come from a proto version of Matthew. JM quotes his version of matthew extensively, whereas Luke-John quotes are absent. If he had Luke, there would be more direct quotes. When did Christians decide that there could be 4 conflicting versions of Christ?

[Xoroaster]

@jamesbonq Justin Martyr's version, is by itself at least the 4th or 5th version of Christianity. JM's objection to Marcion had nothing to do with "The Gospel of the Lord". Marcion's Gospel, and his entire canon, was basically the same story as the later synoptics, but slightly more Docetic. JM doesn't seem to object to Docetism, or G-Marcion, or Pauline Texts, just the Demiurge. But the stories are all basically the same.

[jamesbonq]

@Xoroaster Doesn't JM embrace the virgin Mary/Bethlehem baggage? I looked for a Luke quote, I found the "blood sweat" and "pass the cup" reference, which is Matthean. The "blood sweat" seems like it could be from Luke 22:44, but Luke admits he ripped his gospel from.... probably JM's proto Matthew. Acts is an attempt to make Paul seem subject to the apostles, and analysis supposedly shows the same author as Luke. I noticed also that Theophilus was related to Marcion, somehow, from Vridar's site.

[Xoroaster]

@jamesbonq The closest thing to a "luke exclusive" quote that I found, was in the next video I think. It was infancy, but it was ripped from the Gospel of James. JM didn't have Luke. He did have Matthew and the Gospel of James. I think it was in Dialogue 100.

There is that "other problem." I noticed that the John Epistles, 1 2 3 John, were never quoted by Justin, but Justin's philosophy is entirely consistent. I think John Epistles were created from Justin Martyr's "On the Resurrection."

[MrEpictetus]

When your finished with Justin Martyr, try Tertullian who writes against Marcion. Yes I know Tertullians history, but the point is chronology. Assuming there is one Theophilos and therefore Luke is a 2nd century book is not exactly proof. even Wikipedia knows Marcion borrowed from Luke.

try Kenneth Gentry if your ready for the fact that the entire New Testament was written and circulated in the Churches by 65 a.d.

try Josh McDowell if your ignorant about extant manuscript evidence.

[Xoroaster]

@MrEpictetus lolz. I already know of the manuscripts. I know what evidence they give, and what christians assume the evidence is. "Even Wikipedia". Yikes!

Here's my Tertullian/Marcion video:

I've already explored Tertullian, and did a video on him. You want to take his word, fine. I don't really care. I'm not looking for a bunch of BS guesses, I'm not looking for a bunch of lies, nor do I accept heresy claims just because its convenient. I'm looking for evidence.

[Xoroaster]

@Xoroaster Oops...here's that video

/watch?v=mPbG4dAeU_c

[trondreitan]

I'm planning to do a video on the bible canon. It's not going to be a scholarly as yours, as I'm planning to just skim through some early Christian history in order to make a point. However, it would be nice to refer to someone with a different view on gospel dates than the consensus who has arguments to back that up. Can I refer to this video or the current video series?

[Xoroaster]

@trondreitan Absolutely my friend!

My view had developed over months, so some older stuff is no as accurate as I'd like for it to be. But yeah, I don't mind references at all. I may very well do a series cutting down the Apologetic arguments. The consensus is so terribly unsupported, that imploding their models is fairly easy. ;-D

[trondreitan]

@Xoroaster Thanks! I'll let you know when I've made it. (I'm in no way as productive as you.) I watch all your videos, so if you change something, I'll see it and rather refer to that.

[jmm1233]

wow , just wow

[obaeyens]

Also I have noticed that people that analyse the religious texts always assume that the person that wrote it was perfect in writing and did not have dyslexia. I can tell you that if the writer had dyslexia, then the texts should not analysed so deeply.

Also back then writing skills were not that standardized I presume. I also think that dictionaries barely existed.

[Xoroaster]

@obaeyens Another very good point. I generally go with overriding themes. Though, with Justin Martyr, I tried very hard to extract quotes. Most of the "quotes", were terribly ambiguous. Which sent me back to thematics. Out of maybe 100 quotes or so, I only had maybe five that could be tracked exclusively to a specific book. Most of them, gave me multiple possibilities.

[obaeyens]

Great videos but take care to also look outside the bible texts otherwise you end up in the circular reasoning trap and will find anything you want to find.

If I would analyse all Star Wars books and video clips then I would also probably find matching patters that would prove that Star Wars is real and Darth Vader really exists!

So far I have not really seen you investigating what would falsify matches? It is not all about what matches but also what should fail to match.

[Xoroaster]

@obaeyens Right. That's always a problem. Very good point.

I am trying to let the evidence lead, and trying to locating things regardless of other ideas. I don't want to simply "try and prove a case".

Is there something specific you think I should look for, that I'm ignoring? I would really like to know that, because, its easy for me or anyone else to skip parts, and run down a bad path. All info is great. The sooner I know I'm wrong, the quicker I can correct it. ;-D

[obaeyens]

@Xoroaster

Not specific yet, but when you do research maybe you could swap any bible characters with clear fictions characters and check if the hypothesis are still true.

When you grow up with a religious text than you somehow give more credibility to that book than it deservers. Maybe you could replace Luke with Yoda, Markus with some other Star Wars characters... Names you know that they are fictions and check if the hypothesis still stand. This way you lose the emotional bias.

[obaeyens]

@Xoroaster

I have been trying to find your solar dates and position in your clips. I want to check if there was indeed a solar eclipse with the astronomy software I have. Can you tell me the dates and locations?

[Xoroaster]

@obaeyens Oh yeah. Here's the links to the three initial eclipse videos:

watch?v=3WZKhU9PEHw

watch?v=HL3eOYiRVmM

watch?v=mJ5eX47N4xk

Those are in order, so it might not make sense out of order. The dates are 3/20/0071 location Athens.  And 4/30/0059 location north of Jerusalem. For the most part, my videos are still ok. I need to rebuild them, but the eclipse allegories were fairly decent. The Revelation author provided pretty good info in those two chapters. (6 and 12)

[obaeyens]

@Xoroaster

It appear that those dates are indeed solar eclipses.

Solar eclipses can make a big impression on people that have no idea what happens.

[johncrwarner]

Another interesting hypothesis - I wish they would invent a time machine so we can go back and actually find out who wrote what when and where...

Personally I find the best theology (and some of the worst) is written in response to outside either explaining a position or countering a divergent view etc.

Marcion is virtually only known through his opponents so it is to some extent difficult to know what he was actually writing. Think what we would know of Obama if all we had was Fox "News"

[aZrevolution]

I have to disagree about saying that Justin Martyr quotes Marcion since Marcion himself had a theology which ran contrary to Justin's; who was a proto-orthodox church father. It would make no sense for Justin to ever quote the leader of a theology which he opposed in a positive manner.

[Xoroaster]

@aZrevolution Everyone gets to decide whether or not revisionist history and heresy claims are important. That "church father" list was built around 325.

Justin Martyr gives no indication that he is opposed to Marcion. And neither does anyone else until potentially Theophilus. It's really not until after Tertullian, around 210, that hating on Marcion becomes en vogue. But, I really don't want to argue heresy claims. Heresy is an automatic red flag.

[Xoroaster]

@aZrevolution I've seen nothing that would corroborate the later heresy claims, or the church fathers list.

The only conclusion that is supported, is that no one thought Marcion was a heretic until well after his death.

Even with Theophilus, I only state the claim of "7th Bishop". I refuse to validate that claim. ;-D

[Dudeatheist]

I'm loving these series, its amazing the disconnect between what we're told in churches and what the actual data is showing.

[Xoroaster]

@Dudeatheist Hey, thank you! I'm actually quite amazed myself by it all. The idea that the consensus would be about a century off, and that if you put in the right timeframe, it all just falls in place with relative ease...that blows me away. Every time I locate something new, and take a reasoned approach, the bible ends up being so extremely simple. Consensus scholarship is so thick and complex, I wouldn't have thought "easy" was possible. ;-D

[theheinzification]

wow, how many hours do you invest? 

[Xoroaster]

@theheinzification I can't really say. See, i have a cupcake job, where I mostly get to stay home and not do so much. it leaves a lot of time. ;-D

A lot of times, I write scripts late at night, make videos early in the morning, and read the rest of the time. Its becoming quite a nerdy hobby. ;-D

[theheinzification]

@Xoroaster i want your job!

[QuestionAuthorities]

Good work as usual Xoroaster!. I'm curious though,. If Marcion's gospel forms the core of Luke, how did it get booted from from the canon? It can't be because of redundancy.

[Xoroaster]

@QuestionAuthorities Well, I think redundancy was probably part of it. But what happened, was in the decades after Tertullian @210, the church fathers literally thought Luke was first, and Marcion demolished it. The canon wasn't completely established until near 400. So there was plenty of time for Marcion to become the evil heretic.

Theophilus had to know Marcion was first But in the next 30 years, Luke's "priority" was finally thrown into the mix by Tertullian.

[leeroynaggins]

Excellent work, sir! Simply excellent!

[Xoroaster]

@leeroynaggins Hey, thank you my friend! ;-D

[OgreVI]

Man, this is like watching Columbo!

[Xoroaster]

@OgreVI lolz, i get the sense of being a detective going through this stuff. I keep thinking its a murder-mystery, and I'm going to find the culprit. ;-D

[arkmade]

Good stuff as per usual good sir. One hang up, I may be wrong here, but the pronouciation is mar-C-on, yaknow like (mar)-see-on... Again I could be wrong. This is just the way I have heard all other scholars say it is all.

[Xoroaster]

@arkmade I've said it both ways, I'm not entirely certain. i'll look it up, before I make my nest video. ;-D

Thanks mate!

[Jaybird196]

Thank you for another great video, and the annotation in your previous one telling us to disregard the Acts references.

[Xoroaster]

@Jaybird196 Hey thank you! ;-D

I'll keep annotating corrections, until I have serious problems. ;-D

[bobsmeerfak]

Dude, where did you get all the extra neurons? How many hours do you read every day? Every time I watch one of your videos, I have two thoughts simultaneously: 1. They're so informative that I think you're hiding something about your background/credentials, and 2. I'm an ignorant dweeb. Anyway, keep up the great work.

[Xoroaster]

@bobsmeerfak Thank you! ;-D

The Theophilus connection was actually something I had in my pocket from months ago, but it seemed unlikely. But when Marcion is included, it lines up very well.

Yeah, I read way too much of this stuff. I've been buried in Justin Martyr for a few days, and now I have to go back through it to take a different look. I'm not sure where this adventure ends, but I think it's just beginning. ;-D

[bobsmeerfak]

@Xoroaster Well, keep readin' brother, because the adventure you find in these texts, and the connections you find between them, is what makes your videos so compelling.