Defense of Christianity Part 5a, Religious Epistemology part 1

[tooltime9901]

oh and by the way, shove your "my world views has the most utility" straight up your ass, or at least justify your statement.

[migkillertwo]

"straight up your ass, or at least justify your statement."

well christianity DOES say that some will suffer in teh afterlife, and some will enjoy eternal bliss, and that this IS contingent upon your adherence to the worldview so....

[tooltime9901]

uhm, i asked you to justify your claim that it is the most pragmatic of all possible position on the after-life. I could easily think of far better ones then that, and so i suspect what ever criteria you are using is purely self serving and self congratulating.

[tooltime9901]

the problem with this "atheist_theist with agnostic in the middle" line of argument is that it conflates a belief with a knowledge claim and it INSISTS on reformulating a lack of belief into a positive statement such as "I don't believe in god = I believe god does not exist". the problem is that if that is a ligit move, the agnosticism is a self contradictions, as it would be "I don't believe either god or not god = I believe both god and not god are false" which would in turn to believe both.

[Knowntje]

regarding God not wanting to have a saving relationship with everyone.

Could you give any possible reason as to why God wouldnt want a saving relationship to every of his specially created souls outside of some vague bible referance.

and romans 9? gimme a break, you cannot even get that from romans 9. I defy you to back that up

If God doesnt want a saving relationship with someone that that person is unavoidably damned. So in your opinion has God pleasure in the deaths of the wicked?

[migkillertwo]

"and romans 9? gimme a break, you cannot even get that from romans 9. I defy you to back that up"

Yup, the core of Christian theology (the Book of Romans) is "a vague reference" HAHAHA!

I will have compassion upon whom I have compassion. or how about verse 17? "It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy."

[Knowntje]

"I will have compassion upon whom I have compassion. or how about verse 17? "It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy." "

yeah so? how do you derive from that that God doesnt want a saving relationship with everyone with whom he can have such a relationship?

and what is romans 9 actually about? What is paul talking about and to whom and for what reason?

I would say that romans 9 has nothing to do with personal salvation at all

[Knowntje]

and I could easily throw a bible chapter back. Ezekiel 18

[Knowntje]

ezekiel 18:30-32

30 "Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

It does seem that God doesnt want people to go to hell

[Knowntje]

regarding God and the saving relationship.

I agree mere belief is not enough since even the devil believes God exists. But do YOU actually have a saving relationship with God. Because it seems to me that you are more christian in your head than in your heart. I ofcourse only know you from these videos but I have never ever seen any "love for God" in your videos. And you also lack personal experience so are you yourself not merely a believer instead of having a relationship with god?

[Knowntje]

I'm okay with atheism being the belief in the non-existence of God. I would have no problem defining myself as an atheist in that sense. But I do think a distinction must be made between weak atheism and strong atheism. Since a belief doesnt need to be an absolute certainity.

So I do believe that God (especially the christian and other theistic God's) do not exist. But I do not hold the position that God CANNOT exist. well I do regarding some versions of God but not all versions of course

[TheObnubilators]

wait, how is belief in God pragmatic again? Just because it can't be proved that it doesn't exist?

Sounds like reaching..

[migkillertwo]

"wait, how is belief in God pragmatic again?"

Pascal's wager

[TheObnubilators]

You are an enigma to me.

Now, I'm sure you've been asked this before, but what justifies a belief in a Christian God in particular, to you?

[seflersinsburg10]

Doesn't this argument fall victim to the possibility that God plans to send theists to hell and atheists to heaven?

[AHBritton]

Do you really think Pascal's wager is a good argument? It's a horrible, inconsistent, and rather absurd argument to me. I could illustrate why but I have trouble believing even you fall for it's naive premise.

[urbster1]

Why is atheism irrational for rejecting the afterlife? Modern biology shows us to be related to other lifeforms through evolution, and when those organisms die, they do not enter into an afterlife, or so we believe. What reasons do we have to think that an afterlife exists anymore than we might think our dreams are real? No one has ever been proven to come back from the dead, and if we do bring people back it will be through science and medical technology, not magic. Or maybe we'll reincarnate

[urbster1]

Of course babies and rocks are a-theists (or as some would call them, weak atheists). You are an a-theist about all kinds of gods that YOU don't believe in. It also includes agnostics, because saying "I don't know" is NOT having a belief in God. Therefore agnostics lack a belief in god and can also be labelled weak atheists.

Does Zeus want us enter into a relationship with Zeus? Does Zeus care if we belief in Zeus? Why aren't we having a debate over the hiddenness of Zeus here too?

[Randomicity912]

Fail.

[urbster1]

Hmm. Somehow that doesn't answer any of my questions.

[Knowntje]

Christians are not A-theist agains all the other Gods since the existence of other Gods is incompatible with the existence of the Christian God.

[urbster1]

So what you're saying is that Christians do actively believe that "Zeus does not exist" rather than simply not having any beliefs about Zeus's existence whatsoever. If this is the case, I should correct this point in my post above to reflect this situation. My apologies.

[Knowntje]

Yes definitely.

But as I said to migkiller as well. I actually see no problem definining my atheism as the belief that God does not exist. I'm actually surprised that so many youtube atheist have problem with such a statement. Remember that a belief doesnt mean that you are 100% certain. It merely means that you see good reasons to think that something is either true or false. I see good reasons to think that Christianity for example is false and therefore I believe that Yahweh does not exist

[urbster1]

I'm also curious as to whether a Christian would have beliefs regarding say the existence of fairies. Even as an atheist I would have no problem saying I simply don't have a belief about the existence of fairies, but if someone really asked me what I thought of course I would say no, same as Santa Claus or the tooth fairy or angels or God, because no evidence has been shown that is good enough to convince me. None of these arguments overcome the "hiddenness" of God, or fairies, or anything.