@paracletoII (part 3) If we want to move toward eternal life we need to turn to God for Knowledge how to live and not die. Knowledge is the first thing we need. Then comes for ex.love, mercy etc.because in order to love first we have to KNOW what true love is. So the tree gives us very precious lesson that if one learn he's got the key to endless life. "Man must live not by bread alone but by every utterence(knowledge of good and bad)coming out of God's mouth" Math4:4.
@paracletoII (part 2)The tree would remind them that life depends on knowledge which they didn't have as having just been created, being very young in contrast to God who HAD the knowledge as the Creator and Source of life. The ban not to eat from it would remind them of constant necessity to turn to God for knowledge and not to try to act according to their natural ignorance(as if having the needed knowledge=having the right to eat from it). Lesson for us all is the same:
@paracletoII (part 1)The meaning of the tree of knowledge of good and bad is as follows:to be able to live endlessly one needs KNOWLEDGE what is GOOD for life and what is BAD -harmfulf to life, what supports life and what destroys it. Naming one of the trees in the paradise in this way God acted as a loving parent giving his children precious information how to keep their life forever, not to lose it.
well lets see in the bible says not to trust in man, so why are you asking the people? pray to God to answer your question. :-) also pray to him to help u
well lets see in the bible says not to trust in man, so why are you asking the people? pray to God to answer your question. :-P also pray to him to help u.
A metaphor was being used by the author of Genesis and you ran with it without looking at its content. This was never a story about God testing humans, but rather about man and woman making choices through love and not fear. You do something good because your heart tells you, NOT because your instructed to by the law. Do you live through social contract or the golden rule? There's NO why did God. There's only you and your choice. That is the difference between both testaments. God bless you!
Do you know the difference between a social contract and the golden rule? A metaphor was being used by the author of Genesis and you ran with it without looking at its content. This was never a story about God testing humans, but rather about man and woman making choices through love and edification. Do you live through social contract or the golden rule? There's NO why did God...
Well, Yahweh didn't create the, or a, tree of knowledge. It's all metaphor. The idea of there being a tree whose fruit can just be eaten and you get knowledge symbolizes that thing out there, somewhere that can fix everything, like the holy grail, or a balanced fed budget. The truth is more like the idea of the World Tree, that it is all of creation and Knowledge can be attained through observation of life and that we already know, we just keep looking for low-hanging fruit answers.
You people over think it. The answer is simple. God made us in his own image. Also god is eternal. Soooo if he is like us then can you blame him for creating an ant farm to play with? How would you like to live forever doing nothing? I would do the same, cook up some humans and fuck with them,Trick them, piss them off, abandon them, make them think I don't exist then return and kick there ass for daring to forget lol.
the tree with the knowledge of good and evil is samuel [beelzebub] . the tree of everlasting life is yeshua * got that ? ! sometimes in scripture trees ,sand ,stars , are a euphemism for beings .. satan , like judas , did exactly what he was suppose to do per instruction from on high .. it only get deeper from here . if you got stymied with the 2 trees the rest you really wont get iether..every angel that rebelled ,and remained in heaven , must be born of woman,born in flesh , tested by satan !
to give them a sense of free will & free choice against tradition. against tradition, or safety so that they can create a feeling inside of adventure. since he is all things, all choices will be of his making so he had to let them feel as though it was not apart of him. it was the beginning of his schooling for them.
@jennyrgar As I'm trying to convey in the video: How could they make any actual choice when they lacked the capacity to distinguish between good and evil?
Good and evil was the choice they stood in front of, and good and evil was the very thing eating of the fruit would give them.
There is a slight disconnect there, wouldn't you say?
@Gnug215 because they were like fish, they were curious . and they didnt know of trickery. they were out discovering like children dont know either good & evil at first. the fruit brought on awareness. self awareness . awareness of contrast.
@jennyrgar I agree, but does it not follow from this that their "mistake" (of eating the fruit) was an honest mistake from ignorance, and as such, punishment was unjustified? And especially such a harsh punishment? (We're talking just about the harshest punishment ever: Eternal suffering, horrible horrible suffering, and not just for them, but for EVERYONE born since then.)
@Gnug215 no i think punishment is more of a poetic description. like i had the free will to get drunk and my punishment was a hangover. it was more of a gift. the description of punishment also makes everyone feel like it was free will. it was the beginning of the big experiment. the beginning of unlimited creation. if we all knew that now, we would know too much. eternal suffering is also a choice . so is hell. we do lose. but the truth sets you free
@jennyrgar A "poetic description"? "You will surely die"? And original sin, which has, supposedly, sent billions of people to Hell since then? That's one hell of a euphemism you've got there, I'd say.
Well, at any rate, it sounds like we've moved beyond a literal interpretation here, and if you will notice, in the beginning of the video, I direct this video specifically at Biblical Literalists, so I'm not sure the video is directed at you so much.
@Gnug215 yes 'surely die' just as if i were to warn you....if you overindulge in anything, there are dangerous effects. no hell is choice due to vice . vices take you there and states of emotional being choses to experience for long periods of time due to lack of interest in knowledge of awareness in that subject. it is big but its simple. it can all be summarized. all things can no matter how big. as long as they can be described, they can be summarized.
Respond to this video... well eventually, all forms of truth translate into literal manifestations so in a way, all perceptions of truth are partly truth. but everyone can contribute to whole truth
@Strangerinasland thats ok you are just extremely simple minded. it is all supported by sciences in all directions. poor little guy..... .awe so poor and simple and confused and grumpy... sex on you mind all day? awe poor little man
simple....freewill. he gave man freewill to choose. if he actually would choose to rebel against God.He didnt want to make humans like robots not being able to do wrong or wright, He want to make humans to have a choice to love God and obey, or they could refuse Gods will and even forget God all together , like so much already do today. while ur still alive theirs still hope. call upon the Savior, repent, walk w/ Christ and be saved...or u get what u choose, to be set apart from God eternally!
@Gnug215 yes....I watched it again too.....and of coarse they can be blamed for their actions cuz God (creator)said if u eat from this tree u will surely die...all's they had to do was obey. but they chose to listen to a talking serpent (a creation) instead. chose creation over creator....and we've been doing that ever since.......what do u think? Im down to debate with u but I dont want to get in any arguements or start verbally thrashn on eachother k? jus thought I'd throw that out there...
@JBJ6996777 Well, like I mention in my video, the fact that they "chose" to disobey indicates that they had to have had the capability to distinguish good from evil, right? But as the Bible says, eating from the fruit is what would give them that ability, which means they did not in fact have that ability beforehand.
And yes, just a little debate. I don't do trash talk. :)
@Gnug215 well we would since sin had already entered the human race, but then,I dont think they had the capability of distinguishing good and evil, not until they experienced disobediency yet, until the tempter (satan) came and they chose to disobey. and to ur question of "why did they need to be tested or tempted"....cuz God wanted to create human beings that would be able to love Him, that would and could choose to be obedient to the Creator.
@JBJ6996777 ya, definately did not know good from evil cuz he had not done evil yet. also genisis 3:3 confirms it....easy answers for easy questions....the hard part is believing. and believing also is a gift from God.
@JBJ6996777 I think Genesis 3:22 presents new problems. First of all, man knowing good & evil seems to be a problem to God, for some reason. Especially if man is allowed to eat from the Tree of Life, too. I don't get that. And why are these a problem, and not the fact that man sinned and supposedly failed the obedience test?
Also... why did God create the Tree of Life, too? And place it in Eden, where it apparently posed a "risk"? God must have known all this beforehand.
@JBJ6996777 Well, as I see it, sin and disobedience are evil, so Adam and Eve did not have the capability to see it was evil before they jumped in.
I guess I can accept a creator wanting to test his creation, but there are problems with that, too. First of all, God in his perfection should not be able to create a being that would fail, free will or not. Also, God being omniscient would have known that they would fail.
Maybe without the "unfairly present" serpent, they wouldn't have?
@Gnug215 God didnt fail...He got exactly what he wanted...ppl that would choose to love Him and have relationships with His creation...I know it says in the word that He desires no one to perish but all come to repentance...but that doesnt mean He failed at all. in the long run millions are saved, yes even more are not saved by rejecting the One and only God or choose other doctrines of demons, which all stems from the sin factor.
@JBJ6996777 I don't see how a loving God could ever want ANYone to end up in Hell. So in my view, just one soul ending up in Hell is abysmal failure.
That said, I think if you read the Bible literally, it seems clear from the wording that God did indeed fail. Adam & Eve ate of the tree, and had to be punished.
Later on, his entire creation is to perish in the Flood. Clearly another failure.
@mrgionni An excellent point, and it demonstrates what I think is clear in Genesis: that humans were an empty shell when first created, and yet still held accountable.
I missed a beginning point...the tree of knowledge possesses the reasoning by why some live and why some die (circle of life). God enforces this, not man...so after eating the tree, Adam (man) felt he had such a right to enforce life & death..but really, he is a part of the garden like everyone else, not the ruler and does not have the say. Human beings have become greedy in terms of food and resources. We have even killed to have more of our share.
After reading Ishmael by Daniel Quinn, I agree with the perspective that Adam, after eating from the tree of knowledge (for the Gods), convinced himself he was God and could do as he pleased without having the true knowledge yet that he is not God and is not in control and sustainability is a must in order for everything in the garden to survive. This lead to his (and all of mankind) fall. Should we not be responsible and should we play God, environmental crises and extinction occur.
About the get out of jail free card. Truly some hate laws, and doing the right thing doesn't come natural to sinful men. But the law is not void, it is intended to show us our estate before God. After making atonement, doing what is right is based on love and not fear. Christians will do what God commands because of what he has done for us, and not for the fear of judgement.A good parent will always try to teach their children with love, not fear. This is really the most effective way
Jesus rose from the grave on the third day justifying us! It justifies us because there is no body of evidence because he live, his blood covers our sins so that the judge sees no fault in us. No other faith is so profound, yet understandable. God has taken guilty men, and show us his love by offering his only Son for to prove us innocent and allow us to be justified in the sight of a completely righteous judge.I am sorry I didn't satisfactorily answer your question, but I hope this helps you
@b1foschiefs Third, it seems strange that there is so much emphasis on laws and rules in the Bible, only to have Jesus come along and basically render them all moot. Sure, one might say they're guidance, but for what? We're all sinners anyway, because of Adam (who I still claim could not have done wrong due to ignorance), and because no matter what we do, Jesus is the only way.
@Gnug215 I still think your forcing ignorance on a perfect man, the bible doesn't say he was ignorant. He understood the command, but chose to disobey anyway. Unless you are an anarchist, I wouldn't think you would have a problem with laws. Laws are intended for our own good, and God's laws are most certainly not arbitrary.
@b1foschiefs Adam and Eve actually seem quite ignorant and child-like, and since the tree was what gave them knowledge of good and evil, I can only assume that they had no knowledge of it prior, and basically that makes them an innocent child.
I have no problem with laws, but I think part of law is proportional consequence. Neither Heaven nor Hell represent that, and Jesus sort of negates it all.
@b1foschiefs I appreciate you at least trying to take the time to answer (which is more than can be said to anyone else prior to you commenting here), but I guess we must chalk it down to differences in understanding. Something I hope God, should he exist, has some understanding and sympathy for.
(I wouldn't want to end up in hell for not being able to understand, even if I tried.)
@Gnug215 Well my point exactly is that God is just. He most certainly will not punish those who dont understand, however I have already said that he will provide an adequate testimony of himself to everyone. If I didn't believe this to be true, and God didn't make this clear, than I would hide the truth from every man, thus saving them.
But, you know what they say about a someone who represents himself in court,haha. God will not force you to use the lawyer. Now Jesus shed His righteous blood for you and me on the cross(this man had no fault) and when the judge looks at us He sees no sin because the righteous blood of His Son covers us. Now you can be forensically declared "not guilty." But some will say, "but that would make you responsible of an innocent mans death!" And they would be right, but here is the beauty(cont)
Now, the law itself condemns us. And this is what the law is for, it is used by God to show us our guilt.Now in any court case a lawyer is offered to you, no different here. Jesus Christ is our advocate in this court case. Only he does not plea your case, but rather will take the punishment for you.This is not possible without confession of guilt, because Jesus cant receive punishment for an innocent man.Also we must be willing, for in a court case one can represent himself.(cont)
But the bible says not flesh shall be justified in his sight, I think we cant emphasize enough his holiness here, he couldn't receive a sinner if he wanted to. Standing before God using his righteousness as the law, it makes our righteousness as filthy rags.The prosecuting attorney in this case is the law,we have already spoke of the law of ones conscience, also the law which he has delivered to his people.Any breach of this law leaves one guilty.The evidence against us is insurmountable(cont)
Pro 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD. This scripture proves that God hates any kind of injustice, rather the guilty go free or the innocent be punished. Remember, no mercy or love inside the courtroom, however it is by his mercy and love that there is even a way to be justified. First we all have to enter into judgement with him.We have talked much about Adam,but it is every man will be accountable for himself(cont)
I dont believe in atheists. The bible makes clear that people have adequate knowledge of him, I have found it to be true in my life, so the evidence is good enough for me.In my many discussions with so called atheists I find that they believe but are angry at Him.They get frustrated and end up cursing him, in the same sentence they say he's not real. He goes from the non-existant to being a jerk real quick.I have found few that were cordial to me,and I do nothing other than what I have done here
@b1foschiefs Well, you're free to not believe in atheists, but if you argue with them, I suggest not expressing that notion openly, because it can seen as rather offensive to claim that someone doesn't believe what they say they do. That would be like me claming that you really don't believe in Jesus, for some reason or other.
But yes, I'm sure there are many "angry atheists", but I don't think that is true for all of them. I do think some are angry because of what religion does. (cont.)
@b1foschiefs And I think, perhaps sadly, that some of the angrier and loudest ones are those that are all over the Internet, arguing against religion. I think it's fair to say that there is a big difference between being angry at God, and being angry at religion.
As a former Christian, I still have some sympathies towards other Christians, but not the ones that are extreme in their views - and often quite unpleasant.
Sadly, this entire debate has been polarized and antagonized.
@Gnug215 I apologize if I was antagonistic. I thought we were having a rather civil debate here. I would tell you that the only way you will know the difference between a true religion and false religion is based on experience, but I believe and have experienced, and know Jesus. You have to remember the uniqueness of Christianity, the condescended God, the atonement, the relationship, the grace apart from works! You can pray for answers.
@b1foschiefs Oh, and additionally: You have to admit, that for the Bible to state that people have adequate knowledge of him (just as a matter of fact) is circular reasoning.
Of course the "faith book" of God would claim something like that. Other holy books say the same thing. I'm currently arguing with a Muslim on another video who's saying the same thing, really.
Which book should I believe? Well, not any of them it they argue that: "Because this book says so!", right?
Now my turn.If there was such a God the creator,would He not be far superior than us?How would He relay such a knowledge to creature as ourselves?Based on the disobedience of a simple command,did He not have the right to destroy our race forever there in the garden?Does not the potter have the right over the clay?God has not done this,He has graciously satisfied His justice through his only Son,to show us his goodness and not hold a just punishment against us.
@b1foschiefs Well, as a potter, God has only himself to blame for the faulty product, has he not?
I have never denied God his right over the clay (I'm a former Christian, so I understand the implications), but the manner in which this all came about just seems highly contrived.
We're God's product, he tests us, "we" (Adam and Eve, the rest is inherited) fail, we receive immense unthinkable punishment (by default, I know Jesus gives a way out), and still it's our responsibility?
@Gnug215 I dont think its a faulty product, I mean we were made in his image. What he does is not force us to love him,Heaven is the presence of God. Therefore God does not make us come there to be with him. The scripture I quoted in John means that people choose their own fate. I happen to think this is a good qualtiy, some supposed Christians believe in universal salvation.Can you tell me why you are not a Christian? No offense, but I dont believe Christians fall away.
@b1foschiefs We are created in the image of God, and yet we fail so spetacularly so often. I just have to wonder what kind of "image" that is.
I get that we have free will, but it just seems to me that if the choice is made clear (which one, like you, could argue that it is) then the choice should be clear, too: I can't think of anyone who would actively choose damnation over salvation. IF the choice is indeed clear.
@b1foschiefs The thing that strikes me the most is really how often we fail. Even Christians who supposedly know God. It just seems so immensely stupid that anyone who walked with God in the garden (actually AND metaphorically) would know all the consequences, and still consistently fail.
I can't really blame the atheists for anything here, because they don't believe, but that they would go to Hell for not being convinced? Any by what? Other Christians? The "evidence"?
@Gnug215 Justification is the process in which a person is declared "righteous" before God.An innocent verdict before a righteous judge. It doesn't mean they are 'righteous," but are declared righteous.First, God loves justice, and who would want an unjust God?It is the job of a righteous judge to not be partial,there is no room for mercy or love inside a courtroom, it's all about justice! How can God find a guilty person innocent? I think you will see the depth of the love of God here(cont)
@b1foschiefs I have a few problems with the things you say in your latest comments. First, while I can get behind justice, I find it problematic that eternal suffering exists. I also find the concept of Christian justice and righteousness highly problematic in light of the major "get-out-of-jail-free-card" that is Jesus (who is the only path to salvation).
Second, that God cannot receive a sinner even if he wanted to. How come? It sounds like God is very bound by some external rules and laws.
@Gnug215 Get out of jail free card, that's good. This shows God's mercy and grace, which are 2 of his attributes. When I say God cannot receive a sinner, I mean his nature, not laws will allow it. God IS His attributes, he is invisible. Only Jesus shows us how God would be as a man, and because he was a man he could act as our priest to God, being both God and man.God's unchangable and perfect nature are what keep him from receiving sinners apart from the priest.
@b1foschiefs I agree that the Get out of jail free card is good, mercy and grace are good, but I've never seen it as an expression of justice. Justice, to me, is getting one's due, and in that regard, I don't think any of us are getting our due. Some get away too easy (through Jesus) and some are punished too harshly (in Hell).
As for God not being able to receive a sinner, I guess that's one thing, but for God to create Hell to send those sinners to is another.
@Gnug215 Who has to decide the right punishment? Please create a scenario in which justice and mercy can coexist, apart from what I just explained. It is more about our understanding of who he is and less about how it makes us feel. Sinning against an infinite God cannot be punished finitely. If eternal life is the reward won by Jesus, than eternal death is the obvious polar opposite. The elephant in the room right now is that hell is not necessary for anyone because of the infinite sacrifice
Jesus said"that this is the judgement,that light(which is associated with understanding)has come into the world,but men loved darkness rather than light because their deedswere evil.John 3:18 Paul said every man has a conscience, light within themselves to which they will have no excuse.Rom 2:15 Some people think they will stand before God and plea their case,but it will not be so because they will all recall the choice they made,whether it be general knowledge or specific like me to you
Isnt it true that we cannot understand good without evil?Isn't good opposite of evil?Isn't it necessary that I tell my children the stove is hot?This is supposed to be applied to our lives, and you are shedding negative light on a story of redemption.See Jesus was the second Adam,except he was obedient, and then died an unjust death.He died for our sins, and then was raised for our justification.In other words the curse became a blessing,because he being our rep., rose conquering sin,death,Satan
Now, you are right things were fine in the garden,he could eat of the tree of life freely and live, which begs the question why did he eat of the only one he is forbidden to eat?But this is typical of mankind,I would have done the same thing. I have four children,they all have lied to me and disobeyed me.Now this is wrong on a moral level,and it shows that all men really are sinful.God is Holy in every way, meaning seperate and righteous.God wanted Adam to know good and evil did exist(cont)
@b1foschiefs You say that God wanted Adam to know good and evil did exist, and yet, he did not create Adam with that knowledge. Contradicting what you say, God seemingly wanted to keep this knowledge away from Adam and Even, stating that they must NOT eat from the Tree (with the fruit that gave you knowledge of good and evil).
Yes, children must know "evil", but must they be punished with eternal Hell? Even when they are not innocent (without knowledge) anymore?
@Gnug215 No no contradiction. You still dont understand, with the command came knowledge and also freedom and choice. You must erase what you have been told by other Christians who dont undertand. In the fruit was no knowledge!The knowledge that the command brought was sufficient, he did want them to know and it's not contradictory. God did not want them to "experience" evil, but wanted them to understand it.People dont go to Hell without knowledge, the bible makes this clear(cont)
@b1foschiefs But it says: "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."
And later: "For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
I think there is a clear distinction between the two situations, where only by eating the fruit would Adam and Eve gain that knowledge.
@Gnug215 The folly of so many,even believers.To think there was not adequate knowledge.Go back to my illustration,do my children gain knowledge from touching the oven.Of course,but not in the way I would have liked them to, for now they are hurt.I wanted them to KNOW that it was hot, so I told them.If I would have not told them,than they would be innocent in the matter, but since I did than I cannot be to blame.I have adequately answered all your questions in an easy to understand manner.(cont)
@b1foschiefs Additionally, when Eve decides to eat it, this is what she thinks: "When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it."
There seems to be no malice or anything involved. She seems like an innocent child that has been deceived by someone, unwittingly making a mistake.
That mistake costs more, I'd say, than any regular consequence brought upon any child for a "simple" misstep.
@Gnug215 OK,go back and listen to your own questions.I have adequately answered all of them without any mystery.I have proven that Eve did understand, however the command was given to Adam.In fact,Adam blamed God.Read carefully.You have directed these questions to biblical literalist,yet you read more literal than you should.First sin was not eating,but rather covetousness.Coveting something you are not supposed to have is a sin.The first sin took place in her heart, lusting after the forbidden
@b1foschiefs Heh, well in that case, I'd have to argue that you're not "literalist" enough. :)
Seriously, though. If we take it on face value, then it says that the knowledge of good and evil was not there in Adam and Eve beforehand, so there is no way for them to sin. Not until they had that knowledge.
@Gnug215I completely disagree with you here.I think you are forcing your view on the scripture.I have to admit,that not many understand this.Look no further than this pages comments.You have to understand Gods personality here,he meant that they wouldn't eat.I dont know how what I have said doesn't make sense to you.God could have drove a stick in the ground and told them not to pull it out and the sin would have been the same.(cont)
@b1foschiefs I AM actually forcing a particular view onto scripture: the literalist one. Literalists don't get to interpret, so I'm trying to ask them what the Bible literally says, and if that makes sense. I accept your apologetics on this issue - and I disagree - but I think you are interpreting.
The main point I'm trying to make is that sin was not possible before the tree, because, as I read it, the ability to sin was contingent on the knowledge of good and evil - which Adam didn't have.
They died spiritually first of all, and they knew this because they were naked when before it was not a shame. Every person that has been saved has experienced this feeling of nakedness, guilt, before being covered by the righteous blood of Jesus Christ. The first blood shed on earth was the animal God slew to cover their nakedness.This is a type of Jesus sacrifice. Sorry I was critical of your video, I'm not a cat person..haaha.
@Gnug215 Well, the sacrifice was made by Jesus because after this disobedience mankind was cursed. You are right it was a curse.But the bible says cursed is anyone who hangs on a tree.Jesus became the curse for us,satisfying Gods justice on sin.See God loves justice as well as love,mercy,and grace.The command was clear, and withholding the punishment would make him a liar. Now Jesus received that punishment on our behalf, by uniting with him we have received our punishment through him.(cont)
The video is rather simplistic and creepy but to the proposed question: So that man might understand good and evil. Simple, it was not a test. It was for knowledge, hence the name, the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
@b1foschiefs With every command comes understanding of that command.The command was clear, not to eat of the fruit or you will die.We have a command and a consequence.I tell my children,"dont touch the stove because it is hot and will burn you" With this comes adequate knowledge to protect them.It is for a good reason that I tell them this right?The only knowledge that was gained was an experimental knowledge.But no knowledge was in the fruit itself,but knowing the consequence of sin.(cont)
If you knew what the tree represented, then you wouldn't ask silly questions. By the way, you need the spirit of God to understand his mysteries. Aren't you atheist suppose to be the enlighten ones. You haven't even gotten of the ground yet.
@cmpresents So basically, you don't have an answer.
I'm not an atheist, (I used to be Christian, but even back then I didn't know the answer - but hey, back then I didn't ask questions) and as far as I know, atheists generally don't consider themselves "enlightened".
But since you seem to be one who has the spirit of God, could you try to enlighten me with an answer to the mystery?
who cares? we ate the fruit, can't change the past. there's no sense in asking why. why is a question that cannot be answered, and in regards to the subject of any matter. why does your hand close when you want it to? well . . . you can't say why, you can't give account for stimulus. stimulus is that we now obtain knowledge. let's use it. the first step: we should harbor the knowledge to avoid ideological confrontation. ideology is beautiful as long as it's observed objectively. so why ask why?
@almostcutmyhair101 I'm basically asking the question to make an argument. It is my contention that the creation of this Tree does not correspond with the supposed nature of God and a divine plan.
well in the book of genesis it said that god told adam and eve not to eat from that tree but satan came like a serpent and told eve to take the fruit from the tree, then she gave one to adam( before they ate the fruit they were naked and not ashamed, but after they ate the fruit they got knowledge and saw themselves naked and started to put leaves on themselves to cover them) .
@ice7227 Hi, sorry for the lateness of my reply (Google/gmail messed up.)
You're basically just reciting what Genesis writes about what happened after God had created the Tree of Knowledge, but I am asking about why God created the Tree in the first place.
@Gnug215 TEST OF OUR COSMIC WILL AND COSMIC INTELLECT MAN WAS SEDUCEDS BY WOMAN WOMAN GOT KNOWLEDGE WOMAN MADE SEX SEDUCED ADAM CAIN'S ANGER KILLED ABEL OUT OF ENVY AND ANGER THIS IS ALL SYMBOLIC WE REFLECT ON THE PAST FOR A BETTER FUTURE THEREFORE THE OPPOSITES OF THE SINS ARE VIRTUES WE USE THE VIRTUES TO MASTER THE FUTURE THEREFORE WE CAN GAIN ASCENSION TOWARDS HEAVEN WE ARE JUDGED AFTER DEATH REincarnation/Hell/Heaven, TIME AND FATE IT IS REAL WE LIVE IN A UNIVERSE
@asorlonnn Wow, all Caps is really a pain to read. No (just about) punctuation makes it even harder. And... not making much sense makes it doubly hard. :)
God could have made adam and eve so that they would do exactly what he wanted - but in that case he would have made robots - and not free humans gifted with a free will
@thierry1312 I know, but apparently, he made them knowing they would fail.
But that's not the worst of it. He also punished them, severely, when they failed. He didn't reprimand them, educate them, raise them, no, it was a one-time deal, and then punished with death and eternal suffering. And not just for Adam and Eve, but for EVERYone after that.
So again, given these conditions post and prior, with all of God's knowledge and power, why did he create that tree?
if he asks you to ring twice and you ring three times then he knows that you are somebody who is not a suitable guest
if you cannot just do what he is asking you when you are standing outside, in front of the door then you will not do what he is asking when you are inside as well
the tree of knowledge had the same reason - god created the garden and adam and eve could do whatever they wanted - only one tree they had to leave alone - was that really asked to much ?
@thierry1312 A nice analogy, but I think it fails for a few reasons. 1: Adam and Eve didn't have knowledge of good and evil. (Why, btw?) 2: Someone tempted them, tricked them. 3: God, being omniscient, knew this would happen. 4: Why put the tree there, when God knew it would tempt them, and he knew if would happen? 5: Why put it there as a test? Why test your own creations?
And If your own creations fail, then who is to blame?
i know this only because i had the same problem in the past - i had a home for homeless and some of them even started a fire inside and things like that
if i would do this again i would make a little room in the home and i would say to every new guest only once that they are not alowed to enter that room and besides that they can do wathever they want - that room would be empty and there would be a camera in it
and those who enter it i would trow out immediately
and because i was thinking about a way to make sure to have only suitable guests, who do not need rules - but who are just prepared to do something when i ask it
thinking about that i understood why ed leedskalnin did this and later i understood that this was also the reason why God created the tree
also God did not say that they were not allowed to eat from the tree of life - that he only made impossible after that
so God gave adam and eve a choice - and thus there had to be a possibility to leave eden - and if not it would have been a prison - so the tree was also created to give adam and eve freedom
@Gnug215- You can show a believer that God himself says in the bible that He created evil, but they find a work around solution that always involves jumping through mental hoops. They've convinced themselves that He's always perfect. What % of evil must have been in this magical tree that God so "wisely" put here? Any logical, thinking person would have to conclude that God did put some amount of evil in that magical tree. The story can only be understood by those able to read between the lines.
@RODikUlus You're right: the tree IS really evil, there is really no other way around it. It surprises and baffles me that this myth is still used as theology. Even the more liberal Christians seem to espouse it, pretty much as is. There are more layers to it than they seem to grasp - or perhaps want to, because it's deeply problematic. As you say, knowledge, but clearly, the knowledge from the tree did not make us like God or gods. And eternal life would not do so, either.
@Gnug215 According to the myth, having both the knowledge, and living forever is what would make us God's equal. That's why He gets threatened when man got to close. Having knowledge of good & bad ( essentially...all there is to know) coupled with living forever ( living as long as god does) puts us on God's level. In Gen 3, God is made to say, Look, man has become as one of us ( Elohim) in knowing, so that he doesn't (also) partake of the tree of life, and live forever, lets keep him from it!
@RODikUlus Yes, but that's according to the myth, but if we listen to the rest of the entire mythology, then we find that God is much more than able to live forever with knowledge of good and evil. It doesn't make any sense in any way that God would be threatened by this. It would, however, make more sense in a kind of semi-misguided parent-knows-best kind of way if God felt humans couldn't handle knowledge/eternity. But no, he thought man would be a threat. Very strange, I think.
@Gnug215 A God who acknowledges that there is knowledge He doesn't want you to have=He's hiding something.
Anyone who tries to hold you back from knowledge isn't trying to protect you, they want to get over on you. Why else would a "powerful" God be threatened by His own creation? And He can tell the future too?!?!?!?! Makes no sense, no matter how many mental hoops the religious person makes. In the myth, man could theoretically handled both... just God didn't want to face that reality. Hmm
@RODikUlus I agree, withholding knowledge isn't a friend, but I think a patriarchical society from way back when would indeed extol that as a virtue. I believe the same mentality is what has been behind the, well, let's just say misogyny for so many centuries.
It is indeed a limited, flawed and petty God presented in these myths. The apologists have been working overtime to fix these monumental problems - and it frigging worked on many people. :(
@Gnug215- Observant man knew they would die, but that they can always learn more. That's why they placed knowledge as the one thing we did get, & the everlasting life portion remaining elusive. Men were always dying, but they never understood why, so they made up myths to explain that which is unexplainable. If the Pandoras Box myth was in the bible to explain how evil got into the world, they'd believe it! Biblical God placed a tree here with evil in it, but they"ll never see it that way.
What EXACTLY was the test? The test was to see if they would trust Him completely and understand His love for them. Given another option, whether evil or not, they failed the test. They desired to give up eternal life for power. They seemed in close contact with God, so it seems they could have called on Him for support. They must have been intelligent and understood what death was or why would God even tell them this? If I were Eve I'd have asked the devil why he hadn't eaten the fruit.
@TheFalcon2227 Well, Eve acts quite... stupidly, doesn't she? If I were Eve, I would have done the same. Why didn't she? Genesis 3 doesn't say a lot about the thought process of Eve (or Adam, who is just handed the fruit by Eve). She acts very much like a small child. Perhaps understandably, because she can't distinguish between good and evil.
But why did God even have to plant the tree there? And then tell them "here's a tree with fruits... but don't eat them."
@Gnug215 Its an occult book describing several completely opposed religions at times. But, if your not familiar with the occult it will make it impossible to understand. The first example is that the Lord God create man in his image and likeness creating both male and female but this was before Eve. This is explaining the dual nature of the universe according to the Mystery Schools. There is no point in arguing with literalist about this, they dont want do the work it takes to understand.
@Maniac50AE I know it's fairly pointless to preach to the extremists - or the choir, for that matter. What I'm hoping to do is to reach the moderates, the fence-sitters, the undecided, or those on the extreme who are there by accident, so to speak.
2 options, 1 choice? This tree or that tree? To eat or not to eat? To believe or not to believe? To trust or not to trust? To fear or not to fear? To try or not to try? To die or not to die? Alot of things probably happened and were contemplated in the heart during this presentation. Does God want to end up those He has to force into loyalty or those who give it freely and totally because they want to?
@TheFalcon2227 I'm not sure if your questions capture what I consider the main points of the dilemma; because what kind of a choice was this if Adam and Eve didn't even have the capability to distinguish between the good and evil of the choice?
And God must have known what they would end up choosing, right? And even if he didn't, the circumstance of the choice wasn't fair either, since only the devil was present at the time of choosing.
God had a right to test humans, but was the test fair?
How about this? God gave man a free will so that man's love,praise and fellowship would be by choice not force.There was initially only one commandment...don't eat or even touch the fruit of that tree.What good is having a free will if there is no way to excercise that will? Therefore,the tree was placed there to provide an opptunity to obey or disobey.
@IAMreallyNotREAL But the problem is that eating the fruit of the tree was the very thing that would enable humans to distinguish good from evil. Before that, they were just... children, robots, whatever. Then Satan comes along and confuses them, and BAM, punishment.
Added to that, being omniscient, God would have been able to see that this would happen - and see WHILE it was happening. Was he busy watching CSI that day or something?
@Gnug215 -Great video. The creation account is an aesops fable. It's saying that mankind has 2 innate desires ( to have more life & more knowledge), yet they will always elusively escape mankind.
If he choose to have more life, then he couldn't have more knowledge.vice versa. We can't deny that we do want those things. This is a myth created by observant men. There are chinese proverbs too. You'll see apologist talk about free will, but if God hardened Pharoahs heart, where was his free will?
@RODikUlus Interesting comment, thanks. I've felt for a long time that there actually was something clever and observant behind the myth. My take on the meaning behind it, though, is more along the lines of "ignorance is bliss", and the burden of conscience, so to speak. It seems to be the one thing that truly distinguishes us from animals, so in that regard it is indeed a clever myth.
Also, God hardens a LOT of hearts in the Bible. Check ProfMTH's latest vid on that. Great stuff.
@Gnug215 Hey, thanks. I'll have to check that out later. My shift drags on till tomorrow. I'm too lazy to make a video, so I'm glad you did. The Genesis account has people beLIEving that a loving God actually created man with 2 innate desires, puts both "cures" right in front of man, & basically teases us by not letting us have both. This "God" makes it possible to (A) live as long as Him, &(B) know what He knows, yet gets threatened when we know something He doesn't want us knowing.
@RODikUlus I'm glad you liked the vid, but as it's become evident here, there is a lot more meat on this tree, so you could easily make a few vids about it. :)
@Gnug215 -You are correct with the Matrix "ignorance is bliss" also, as aesops fables always have more than 1 lesson in them. There are plenty, and you can find plenty in your local library. Did believers notice that God only kept man away from the tree of life, cuz He was fearful of man having His knowledge, coupled with everlasting life? So man, after "sinning", is able to live forever. This goes against death being a result of sin as an absolute truth.
@IAMreallyNotREAL -But, by God putting a tree there named "the tree of the knowledge of good & evil", how can it be said that God didn't create evil? Biblical God, in your own bible says He created evil.
The "free will" doctrine only attempts to take away ANY responsibilty, from an omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient being. How do you take away ALL blame from an all-knowing being who started the ball roilling on everything? By shifting the blame. God shifts the blame before Eve did.
because after they ate of it their eyes were opened and it states they have become now as God knowing right from wrong and now they will have to eat of the fruit of the tree of life. He forknew this and foreknew he would come here before he created this universe. He is reproducing himsel-f but also there was genetic corruption due to the fallen angels breeding with daughters of men afterward. The bible refers to them as Nephiliun and much older Sumerian tablets call then Ananuaki
@Thundralight Now you're not making any sense. Read my comment again.
God foreknew all of this, as you also admit, and yet he let it happen - not only that, he specifically created all the conditions that would ensure this outcome. If the weakness of humans is to blame, then God is to blame for creating that weakness. If the devil and his fellow fallen angels are to blame, then again, God is to blame for creating those (and letting them roam free on Earth!?!)
@Thundralight Teach your children right from wrong? But God wanted them to NOT know right from wrong, since he forbade them from eating from the tree, remember? And yes, God foreknew that so many of us would supposedly end up in Hell, not so much by free will but by "design". Also, that salvation didn't come for some 4000 years - and still hasn't come to all. Tough luck for them, I guess, huh?
funny observation: God punishes man for taking Knowledge (from the tree). The only way to gain immortality (be saved) is to believe in something seemingly impossible: God. Basically, ignorance is bliss!
@CetraTJ You know, "Ignorance is bliss" is exactly the observation I've made in that regard. I guess that's pretty consistent with some of the other messages in the Bible.
Love is a choice. If God hadn't given Adam and Eve a choice, then there would have been no real love. God created us to love and to be loved by Him. Real love is a choice, so there had to be an opportunity to choose.
@eternalpunx It seems pretty clear from reading Genesis that the choice wasn't clear, and the action (of eating the apple) was mindless, to say the least.
It doesn't read like conscious choice from Eve - and least of all Adam who just seems to take of something that Eve hands him - who just seems curious, and duped by the talking snake.
Besides, the warning from God about the tree is that they'll "surely die", not that they'll turn against God. And who'd be stupid enough to want to die?
I am not reading a narrative of their feelings but rather echoing the arguments that were put to them immediately before consuming the fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (FKGE I think I'll use frm now on!)
God told them not to eat it or else they would die. Satan told them to eat it because then they would be like God (knowing both good and evil). This suggests strongly that they wanted to be like God.
They had been making the decision of what to have for breakfast since they were created.
The decision they made was to know how to sin. Sin by nature involves the hurting of someone, either oneself or another. They wanted to know how to do evil and that is what they got, hardly a suprise that people get hurt as a result.
He told them not to eat it. We were the berks who did so inspite of this advice.
bullshit...because apparently before they ate the fruit they didnt know what GOOD was either...because it was the tree of the knowledge of GOOD and evil! Before the fruit, we were automotons. The fruit actually freed humanity!
It did 'free' humanity in the sense that it made us know how to sin and therefore free to do so. I have no disagreement with that.
What we then did with that freedom was exercise it, and look where that has got us. If you like the effects of sin in this world that is your call. No one can force you to do good.
@paracletoII (part 4)The more one study the Word of God and lives by it the closer he is to endless life.
gnostic38 1 month ago
@paracletoII (part 3) If we want to move toward eternal life we need to turn to God for Knowledge how to live and not die. Knowledge is the first thing we need. Then comes for ex.love, mercy etc.because in order to love first we have to KNOW what true love is. So the tree gives us very precious lesson that if one learn he's got the key to endless life. "Man must live not by bread alone but by every utterence(knowledge of good and bad)coming out of God's mouth" Math4:4.
gnostic38 1 month ago
@paracletoII (part 2)The tree would remind them that life depends on knowledge which they didn't have as having just been created, being very young in contrast to God who HAD the knowledge as the Creator and Source of life. The ban not to eat from it would remind them of constant necessity to turn to God for knowledge and not to try to act according to their natural ignorance(as if having the needed knowledge=having the right to eat from it). Lesson for us all is the same:
gnostic38 1 month ago
@paracletoII (part 1)The meaning of the tree of knowledge of good and bad is as follows:to be able to live endlessly one needs KNOWLEDGE what is GOOD for life and what is BAD -harmfulf to life, what supports life and what destroys it. Naming one of the trees in the paradise in this way God acted as a loving parent giving his children precious information how to keep their life forever, not to lose it.
gnostic38 1 month ago
@paracletoII Hmm, I see that you posted a video response, but I don't see where it is now. I have auto-approve on, but it disappeared. :(
Gnug215 3 months ago
This has been flagged as spam show
well lets see in the bible says not to trust in man, so why are you asking the people? pray to God to answer your question. :-) also pray to him to help u
MsNayeli14 3 months ago
well lets see in the bible says not to trust in man, so why are you asking the people? pray to God to answer your question. :-P also pray to him to help u.
MsNayeli14 3 months ago
@MsNayeli14 So I guess you're saying that in this particular instance we have to take the Bible literally?
Gnug215 3 months ago
Only I know the answer. The tree has really nothing to do with good and evil.
onetocome 4 months ago
@onetocome But of course you do.
And it sounds like you're not a literalist, so the question doesn't apply for you.
Gnug215 4 months ago
A metaphor was being used by the author of Genesis and you ran with it without looking at its content. This was never a story about God testing humans, but rather about man and woman making choices through love and not fear. You do something good because your heart tells you, NOT because your instructed to by the law. Do you live through social contract or the golden rule? There's NO why did God. There's only you and your choice. That is the difference between both testaments. God bless you!
tricotomas 4 months ago
@tricotomas And you probably saw the title of the video and ran with it, without listening to its content.
Let me repeat what I say at the very beginning of the video: "Here is a question for all you Biblical literalists out there."
Do you know the difference between a metaphor and a literal reading?
Gnug215 4 months ago
@tricotomas You're saying the Holy Babble isn't true?
Strangerinasland 3 months ago
Do you know the difference between a social contract and the golden rule? A metaphor was being used by the author of Genesis and you ran with it without looking at its content. This was never a story about God testing humans, but rather about man and woman making choices through love and edification. Do you live through social contract or the golden rule? There's NO why did God...
tricotomas 4 months ago
Well, Yahweh didn't create the, or a, tree of knowledge. It's all metaphor. The idea of there being a tree whose fruit can just be eaten and you get knowledge symbolizes that thing out there, somewhere that can fix everything, like the holy grail, or a balanced fed budget. The truth is more like the idea of the World Tree, that it is all of creation and Knowledge can be attained through observation of life and that we already know, we just keep looking for low-hanging fruit answers.
Wyrdmaven 5 months ago
@Wyrdmaven Well, I don't want to be a buzz kill here, but the question is addressed to Biblical literalists. :)
Gnug215 5 months ago
You people over think it. The answer is simple. God made us in his own image. Also god is eternal. Soooo if he is like us then can you blame him for creating an ant farm to play with? How would you like to live forever doing nothing? I would do the same, cook up some humans and fuck with them,Trick them, piss them off, abandon them, make them think I don't exist then return and kick there ass for daring to forget lol.
probe26 7 months ago
@probe26 Hehe, that actually makes some kind of weird sense. ;)
Gnug215 7 months ago
@probe26 Yes. It is quite an ignorant arrogant assumption that any god(s) must be benevolent.
Strangerinasland 6 months ago
the tree with the knowledge of good and evil is samuel [beelzebub] . the tree of everlasting life is yeshua * got that ? ! sometimes in scripture trees ,sand ,stars , are a euphemism for beings .. satan , like judas , did exactly what he was suppose to do per instruction from on high .. it only get deeper from here . if you got stymied with the 2 trees the rest you really wont get iether..every angel that rebelled ,and remained in heaven , must be born of woman,born in flesh , tested by satan !
MyIpsofacto 7 months ago
@MyIpsofacto If you notice, the first thing I mention in my video is that this question is directed at Biblical Literalists.
Gnug215 7 months ago
the answer is simple and easy : because if god didn't tested Adam and Eve they would be like robots with no choice
bawkiasmani 8 months ago
@bawkiasmani A test you say? And how do you think that test went?
Some problems with this test:
1: God, supposedly being omniscient, would have known the outcome of such a test, and yet he still carried it out.
2: What exactly was tested, since humans could not distinguish between good and evil? The choice between good and evil was the test, was it not?
3: Why was there only an advocate for the wrong choice (the snake) present at the time of the actual execution of the test?
Gnug215 8 months ago
to give them a sense of free will & free choice against tradition. against tradition, or safety so that they can create a feeling inside of adventure. since he is all things, all choices will be of his making so he had to let them feel as though it was not apart of him. it was the beginning of his schooling for them.
jennyrgar 8 months ago
@jennyrgar As I'm trying to convey in the video: How could they make any actual choice when they lacked the capacity to distinguish between good and evil?
Good and evil was the choice they stood in front of, and good and evil was the very thing eating of the fruit would give them.
There is a slight disconnect there, wouldn't you say?
Gnug215 8 months ago
@Gnug215 because they were like fish, they were curious . and they didnt know of trickery. they were out discovering like children dont know either good & evil at first. the fruit brought on awareness. self awareness . awareness of contrast.
jennyrgar 8 months ago
@jennyrgar I agree, but does it not follow from this that their "mistake" (of eating the fruit) was an honest mistake from ignorance, and as such, punishment was unjustified? And especially such a harsh punishment? (We're talking just about the harshest punishment ever: Eternal suffering, horrible horrible suffering, and not just for them, but for EVERYONE born since then.)
Gnug215 8 months ago
@Gnug215 no i think punishment is more of a poetic description. like i had the free will to get drunk and my punishment was a hangover. it was more of a gift. the description of punishment also makes everyone feel like it was free will. it was the beginning of the big experiment. the beginning of unlimited creation. if we all knew that now, we would know too much. eternal suffering is also a choice . so is hell. we do lose. but the truth sets you free
jennyrgar 8 months ago
@jennyrgar A "poetic description"? "You will surely die"? And original sin, which has, supposedly, sent billions of people to Hell since then? That's one hell of a euphemism you've got there, I'd say.
Well, at any rate, it sounds like we've moved beyond a literal interpretation here, and if you will notice, in the beginning of the video, I direct this video specifically at Biblical Literalists, so I'm not sure the video is directed at you so much.
Gnug215 8 months ago
@Gnug215 yes 'surely die' just as if i were to warn you....if you overindulge in anything, there are dangerous effects. no hell is choice due to vice . vices take you there and states of emotional being choses to experience for long periods of time due to lack of interest in knowledge of awareness in that subject. it is big but its simple. it can all be summarized. all things can no matter how big. as long as they can be described, they can be summarized.
jennyrgar 8 months ago
Respond to this video... well eventually, all forms of truth translate into literal manifestations so in a way, all perceptions of truth are partly truth. but everyone can contribute to whole truth
jennyrgar 8 months ago
@jennyrgar What a big blowhard bunch of selfsatisfying deluded doubletalk.
Strangerinasland 8 months ago
@Strangerinasland thats ok you are just extremely simple minded. it is all supported by sciences in all directions. poor little guy..... .awe so poor and simple and confused and grumpy... sex on you mind all day? awe poor little man
jennyrgar 8 months ago
@jennyrgar Well, you certainly won that 1. How did you ever figure out that I am so sexobsessed that I can't understand your ridiculous nonsense?
Strangerinasland 8 months ago
@Strangerinasland i cant help that your straight dumb as hell
jennyrgar 7 months ago
simple....freewill. he gave man freewill to choose. if he actually would choose to rebel against God.He didnt want to make humans like robots not being able to do wrong or wright, He want to make humans to have a choice to love God and obey, or they could refuse Gods will and even forget God all together , like so much already do today. while ur still alive theirs still hope. call upon the Savior, repent, walk w/ Christ and be saved...or u get what u choose, to be set apart from God eternally!
JBJ6996777 9 months ago
@JBJ6996777 Did you watch my entire video and listen to my points? Or did you just read the title and comment?
Gnug215 9 months ago
@Gnug215 yes....I watched it again too.....and of coarse they can be blamed for their actions cuz God (creator)said if u eat from this tree u will surely die...all's they had to do was obey. but they chose to listen to a talking serpent (a creation) instead. chose creation over creator....and we've been doing that ever since.......what do u think? Im down to debate with u but I dont want to get in any arguements or start verbally thrashn on eachother k? jus thought I'd throw that out there...
JBJ6996777 9 months ago
@JBJ6996777 Well, like I mention in my video, the fact that they "chose" to disobey indicates that they had to have had the capability to distinguish good from evil, right? But as the Bible says, eating from the fruit is what would give them that ability, which means they did not in fact have that ability beforehand.
And yes, just a little debate. I don't do trash talk. :)
Gnug215 9 months ago
@Gnug215 well we would since sin had already entered the human race, but then,I dont think they had the capability of distinguishing good and evil, not until they experienced disobediency yet, until the tempter (satan) came and they chose to disobey. and to ur question of "why did they need to be tested or tempted"....cuz God wanted to create human beings that would be able to love Him, that would and could choose to be obedient to the Creator.
JBJ6996777 9 months ago
@JBJ6996777 ya, definately did not know good from evil cuz he had not done evil yet. also genisis 3:3 confirms it....easy answers for easy questions....the hard part is believing. and believing also is a gift from God.
JBJ6996777 9 months ago
@JBJ6996777 I think Genesis 3:22 presents new problems. First of all, man knowing good & evil seems to be a problem to God, for some reason. Especially if man is allowed to eat from the Tree of Life, too. I don't get that. And why are these a problem, and not the fact that man sinned and supposedly failed the obedience test?
Also... why did God create the Tree of Life, too? And place it in Eden, where it apparently posed a "risk"? God must have known all this beforehand.
Gnug215 9 months ago
@JBJ6996777 ooops! I mean genisis 3:22 confirms it.......
JBJ6996777 9 months ago
@JBJ6996777 Well, as I see it, sin and disobedience are evil, so Adam and Eve did not have the capability to see it was evil before they jumped in.
I guess I can accept a creator wanting to test his creation, but there are problems with that, too. First of all, God in his perfection should not be able to create a being that would fail, free will or not. Also, God being omniscient would have known that they would fail.
Maybe without the "unfairly present" serpent, they wouldn't have?
Gnug215 9 months ago
@Gnug215 God didnt fail...He got exactly what he wanted...ppl that would choose to love Him and have relationships with His creation...I know it says in the word that He desires no one to perish but all come to repentance...but that doesnt mean He failed at all. in the long run millions are saved, yes even more are not saved by rejecting the One and only God or choose other doctrines of demons, which all stems from the sin factor.
JBJ6996777 9 months ago
@JBJ6996777 I don't see how a loving God could ever want ANYone to end up in Hell. So in my view, just one soul ending up in Hell is abysmal failure.
That said, I think if you read the Bible literally, it seems clear from the wording that God did indeed fail. Adam & Eve ate of the tree, and had to be punished.
Later on, his entire creation is to perish in the Flood. Clearly another failure.
Gnug215 9 months ago
@Gnug215 and isn't knowing love also knowing good? How can a god expect love from a being that does not yet know from good and evil?
mrgionni 8 months ago
@mrgionni An excellent point, and it demonstrates what I think is clear in Genesis: that humans were an empty shell when first created, and yet still held accountable.
Gnug215 8 months ago
he did it because he is the demiurge
93hipgnosis 9 months ago
The Gods, according to the author, needed the fruit (knowledge) in order to know how to enforce life and death fairly.
freeasaphoenix 9 months ago
I missed a beginning point...the tree of knowledge possesses the reasoning by why some live and why some die (circle of life). God enforces this, not man...so after eating the tree, Adam (man) felt he had such a right to enforce life & death..but really, he is a part of the garden like everyone else, not the ruler and does not have the say. Human beings have become greedy in terms of food and resources. We have even killed to have more of our share.
freeasaphoenix 9 months ago
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freeasaphoenix 9 months ago
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freeasaphoenix 9 months ago
The snake represents the ego: false godliness, greed, self-importance and arrogance. He says, eat from the tree (receive knowledge) and be God.
freeasaphoenix 9 months ago
After reading Ishmael by Daniel Quinn, I agree with the perspective that Adam, after eating from the tree of knowledge (for the Gods), convinced himself he was God and could do as he pleased without having the true knowledge yet that he is not God and is not in control and sustainability is a must in order for everything in the garden to survive. This lead to his (and all of mankind) fall. Should we not be responsible and should we play God, environmental crises and extinction occur.
freeasaphoenix 9 months ago
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freeasaphoenix 9 months ago
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freeasaphoenix 9 months ago
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freeasaphoenix 9 months ago
About the get out of jail free card. Truly some hate laws, and doing the right thing doesn't come natural to sinful men. But the law is not void, it is intended to show us our estate before God. After making atonement, doing what is right is based on love and not fear. Christians will do what God commands because of what he has done for us, and not for the fear of judgement.A good parent will always try to teach their children with love, not fear. This is really the most effective way
b1foschiefs 10 months ago
Jesus rose from the grave on the third day justifying us! It justifies us because there is no body of evidence because he live, his blood covers our sins so that the judge sees no fault in us. No other faith is so profound, yet understandable. God has taken guilty men, and show us his love by offering his only Son for to prove us innocent and allow us to be justified in the sight of a completely righteous judge.I am sorry I didn't satisfactorily answer your question, but I hope this helps you
b1foschiefs 10 months ago
@b1foschiefs Third, it seems strange that there is so much emphasis on laws and rules in the Bible, only to have Jesus come along and basically render them all moot. Sure, one might say they're guidance, but for what? We're all sinners anyway, because of Adam (who I still claim could not have done wrong due to ignorance), and because no matter what we do, Jesus is the only way.
Gnug215 10 months ago
@Gnug215 I still think your forcing ignorance on a perfect man, the bible doesn't say he was ignorant. He understood the command, but chose to disobey anyway. Unless you are an anarchist, I wouldn't think you would have a problem with laws. Laws are intended for our own good, and God's laws are most certainly not arbitrary.
b1foschiefs 10 months ago
@b1foschiefs Adam and Eve actually seem quite ignorant and child-like, and since the tree was what gave them knowledge of good and evil, I can only assume that they had no knowledge of it prior, and basically that makes them an innocent child.
I have no problem with laws, but I think part of law is proportional consequence. Neither Heaven nor Hell represent that, and Jesus sort of negates it all.
Gnug215 10 months ago
@b1foschiefs I appreciate you at least trying to take the time to answer (which is more than can be said to anyone else prior to you commenting here), but I guess we must chalk it down to differences in understanding. Something I hope God, should he exist, has some understanding and sympathy for.
(I wouldn't want to end up in hell for not being able to understand, even if I tried.)
Gnug215 10 months ago
@Gnug215 Well my point exactly is that God is just. He most certainly will not punish those who dont understand, however I have already said that he will provide an adequate testimony of himself to everyone. If I didn't believe this to be true, and God didn't make this clear, than I would hide the truth from every man, thus saving them.
b1foschiefs 10 months ago
@b1foschiefs I agree with parts of this message, but I think you and I will never really agree on what constitutes "adequate testimony". :)
Gnug215 10 months ago
But, you know what they say about a someone who represents himself in court,haha. God will not force you to use the lawyer. Now Jesus shed His righteous blood for you and me on the cross(this man had no fault) and when the judge looks at us He sees no sin because the righteous blood of His Son covers us. Now you can be forensically declared "not guilty." But some will say, "but that would make you responsible of an innocent mans death!" And they would be right, but here is the beauty(cont)
b1foschiefs 10 months ago
Now, the law itself condemns us. And this is what the law is for, it is used by God to show us our guilt.Now in any court case a lawyer is offered to you, no different here. Jesus Christ is our advocate in this court case. Only he does not plea your case, but rather will take the punishment for you.This is not possible without confession of guilt, because Jesus cant receive punishment for an innocent man.Also we must be willing, for in a court case one can represent himself.(cont)
b1foschiefs 10 months ago
But the bible says not flesh shall be justified in his sight, I think we cant emphasize enough his holiness here, he couldn't receive a sinner if he wanted to. Standing before God using his righteousness as the law, it makes our righteousness as filthy rags.The prosecuting attorney in this case is the law,we have already spoke of the law of ones conscience, also the law which he has delivered to his people.Any breach of this law leaves one guilty.The evidence against us is insurmountable(cont)
b1foschiefs 10 months ago
Pro 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD. This scripture proves that God hates any kind of injustice, rather the guilty go free or the innocent be punished. Remember, no mercy or love inside the courtroom, however it is by his mercy and love that there is even a way to be justified. First we all have to enter into judgement with him.We have talked much about Adam,but it is every man will be accountable for himself(cont)
b1foschiefs 10 months ago
I dont believe in atheists. The bible makes clear that people have adequate knowledge of him, I have found it to be true in my life, so the evidence is good enough for me.In my many discussions with so called atheists I find that they believe but are angry at Him.They get frustrated and end up cursing him, in the same sentence they say he's not real. He goes from the non-existant to being a jerk real quick.I have found few that were cordial to me,and I do nothing other than what I have done here
b1foschiefs 10 months ago
@b1foschiefs Well, you're free to not believe in atheists, but if you argue with them, I suggest not expressing that notion openly, because it can seen as rather offensive to claim that someone doesn't believe what they say they do. That would be like me claming that you really don't believe in Jesus, for some reason or other.
But yes, I'm sure there are many "angry atheists", but I don't think that is true for all of them. I do think some are angry because of what religion does. (cont.)
Gnug215 10 months ago
@b1foschiefs And I think, perhaps sadly, that some of the angrier and loudest ones are those that are all over the Internet, arguing against religion. I think it's fair to say that there is a big difference between being angry at God, and being angry at religion.
As a former Christian, I still have some sympathies towards other Christians, but not the ones that are extreme in their views - and often quite unpleasant.
Sadly, this entire debate has been polarized and antagonized.
Gnug215 10 months ago
@Gnug215 I apologize if I was antagonistic. I thought we were having a rather civil debate here. I would tell you that the only way you will know the difference between a true religion and false religion is based on experience, but I believe and have experienced, and know Jesus. You have to remember the uniqueness of Christianity, the condescended God, the atonement, the relationship, the grace apart from works! You can pray for answers.
b1foschiefs 10 months ago
@b1foschiefs Oh, and additionally: You have to admit, that for the Bible to state that people have adequate knowledge of him (just as a matter of fact) is circular reasoning.
Of course the "faith book" of God would claim something like that. Other holy books say the same thing. I'm currently arguing with a Muslim on another video who's saying the same thing, really.
Which book should I believe? Well, not any of them it they argue that: "Because this book says so!", right?
Gnug215 10 months ago
Now my turn.If there was such a God the creator,would He not be far superior than us?How would He relay such a knowledge to creature as ourselves?Based on the disobedience of a simple command,did He not have the right to destroy our race forever there in the garden?Does not the potter have the right over the clay?God has not done this,He has graciously satisfied His justice through his only Son,to show us his goodness and not hold a just punishment against us.
b1foschiefs 10 months ago
@b1foschiefs Well, as a potter, God has only himself to blame for the faulty product, has he not?
I have never denied God his right over the clay (I'm a former Christian, so I understand the implications), but the manner in which this all came about just seems highly contrived.
We're God's product, he tests us, "we" (Adam and Eve, the rest is inherited) fail, we receive immense unthinkable punishment (by default, I know Jesus gives a way out), and still it's our responsibility?
Gnug215 10 months ago
@Gnug215 I dont think its a faulty product, I mean we were made in his image. What he does is not force us to love him,Heaven is the presence of God. Therefore God does not make us come there to be with him. The scripture I quoted in John means that people choose their own fate. I happen to think this is a good qualtiy, some supposed Christians believe in universal salvation.Can you tell me why you are not a Christian? No offense, but I dont believe Christians fall away.
b1foschiefs 10 months ago
@b1foschiefs We are created in the image of God, and yet we fail so spetacularly so often. I just have to wonder what kind of "image" that is.
I get that we have free will, but it just seems to me that if the choice is made clear (which one, like you, could argue that it is) then the choice should be clear, too: I can't think of anyone who would actively choose damnation over salvation. IF the choice is indeed clear.
Gnug215 10 months ago
@b1foschiefs The thing that strikes me the most is really how often we fail. Even Christians who supposedly know God. It just seems so immensely stupid that anyone who walked with God in the garden (actually AND metaphorically) would know all the consequences, and still consistently fail.
I can't really blame the atheists for anything here, because they don't believe, but that they would go to Hell for not being convinced? Any by what? Other Christians? The "evidence"?
I don't get it.
Gnug215 10 months ago
@Gnug215 You are right, we are convicted by evidence. Do you understand the process of justification by faith? It is a forensic process.
b1foschiefs 10 months ago
@b1foschiefs A forensic process? How so?
Gnug215 10 months ago
@Gnug215 Justification is the process in which a person is declared "righteous" before God.An innocent verdict before a righteous judge. It doesn't mean they are 'righteous," but are declared righteous.First, God loves justice, and who would want an unjust God?It is the job of a righteous judge to not be partial,there is no room for mercy or love inside a courtroom, it's all about justice! How can God find a guilty person innocent? I think you will see the depth of the love of God here(cont)
b1foschiefs 10 months ago
@b1foschiefs I have a few problems with the things you say in your latest comments. First, while I can get behind justice, I find it problematic that eternal suffering exists. I also find the concept of Christian justice and righteousness highly problematic in light of the major "get-out-of-jail-free-card" that is Jesus (who is the only path to salvation).
Second, that God cannot receive a sinner even if he wanted to. How come? It sounds like God is very bound by some external rules and laws.
Gnug215 10 months ago
@Gnug215 Get out of jail free card, that's good. This shows God's mercy and grace, which are 2 of his attributes. When I say God cannot receive a sinner, I mean his nature, not laws will allow it. God IS His attributes, he is invisible. Only Jesus shows us how God would be as a man, and because he was a man he could act as our priest to God, being both God and man.God's unchangable and perfect nature are what keep him from receiving sinners apart from the priest.
b1foschiefs 10 months ago
@b1foschiefs I agree that the Get out of jail free card is good, mercy and grace are good, but I've never seen it as an expression of justice. Justice, to me, is getting one's due, and in that regard, I don't think any of us are getting our due. Some get away too easy (through Jesus) and some are punished too harshly (in Hell).
As for God not being able to receive a sinner, I guess that's one thing, but for God to create Hell to send those sinners to is another.
Gnug215 10 months ago
@Gnug215 Who has to decide the right punishment? Please create a scenario in which justice and mercy can coexist, apart from what I just explained. It is more about our understanding of who he is and less about how it makes us feel. Sinning against an infinite God cannot be punished finitely. If eternal life is the reward won by Jesus, than eternal death is the obvious polar opposite. The elephant in the room right now is that hell is not necessary for anyone because of the infinite sacrifice
b1foschiefs 10 months ago
Jesus said"that this is the judgement,that light(which is associated with understanding)has come into the world,but men loved darkness rather than light because their deedswere evil.John 3:18 Paul said every man has a conscience, light within themselves to which they will have no excuse.Rom 2:15 Some people think they will stand before God and plea their case,but it will not be so because they will all recall the choice they made,whether it be general knowledge or specific like me to you
b1foschiefs 10 months ago
Isnt it true that we cannot understand good without evil?Isn't good opposite of evil?Isn't it necessary that I tell my children the stove is hot?This is supposed to be applied to our lives, and you are shedding negative light on a story of redemption.See Jesus was the second Adam,except he was obedient, and then died an unjust death.He died for our sins, and then was raised for our justification.In other words the curse became a blessing,because he being our rep., rose conquering sin,death,Satan
b1foschiefs 10 months ago
Now, you are right things were fine in the garden,he could eat of the tree of life freely and live, which begs the question why did he eat of the only one he is forbidden to eat?But this is typical of mankind,I would have done the same thing. I have four children,they all have lied to me and disobeyed me.Now this is wrong on a moral level,and it shows that all men really are sinful.God is Holy in every way, meaning seperate and righteous.God wanted Adam to know good and evil did exist(cont)
b1foschiefs 10 months ago
@b1foschiefs You say that God wanted Adam to know good and evil did exist, and yet, he did not create Adam with that knowledge. Contradicting what you say, God seemingly wanted to keep this knowledge away from Adam and Even, stating that they must NOT eat from the Tree (with the fruit that gave you knowledge of good and evil).
Yes, children must know "evil", but must they be punished with eternal Hell? Even when they are not innocent (without knowledge) anymore?
Gnug215 10 months ago
@Gnug215 No no contradiction. You still dont understand, with the command came knowledge and also freedom and choice. You must erase what you have been told by other Christians who dont undertand. In the fruit was no knowledge!The knowledge that the command brought was sufficient, he did want them to know and it's not contradictory. God did not want them to "experience" evil, but wanted them to understand it.People dont go to Hell without knowledge, the bible makes this clear(cont)
b1foschiefs 10 months ago
@b1foschiefs But it says: "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."
And later: "For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
I think there is a clear distinction between the two situations, where only by eating the fruit would Adam and Eve gain that knowledge.
Gnug215 10 months ago
@Gnug215 The folly of so many,even believers.To think there was not adequate knowledge.Go back to my illustration,do my children gain knowledge from touching the oven.Of course,but not in the way I would have liked them to, for now they are hurt.I wanted them to KNOW that it was hot, so I told them.If I would have not told them,than they would be innocent in the matter, but since I did than I cannot be to blame.I have adequately answered all your questions in an easy to understand manner.(cont)
b1foschiefs 10 months ago
@b1foschiefs Additionally, when Eve decides to eat it, this is what she thinks: "When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it."
There seems to be no malice or anything involved. She seems like an innocent child that has been deceived by someone, unwittingly making a mistake.
That mistake costs more, I'd say, than any regular consequence brought upon any child for a "simple" misstep.
Gnug215 10 months ago
@Gnug215 OK,go back and listen to your own questions.I have adequately answered all of them without any mystery.I have proven that Eve did understand, however the command was given to Adam.In fact,Adam blamed God.Read carefully.You have directed these questions to biblical literalist,yet you read more literal than you should.First sin was not eating,but rather covetousness.Coveting something you are not supposed to have is a sin.The first sin took place in her heart, lusting after the forbidden
b1foschiefs 10 months ago
@b1foschiefs Heh, well in that case, I'd have to argue that you're not "literalist" enough. :)
Seriously, though. If we take it on face value, then it says that the knowledge of good and evil was not there in Adam and Eve beforehand, so there is no way for them to sin. Not until they had that knowledge.
Gnug215 10 months ago
@Gnug215I completely disagree with you here.I think you are forcing your view on the scripture.I have to admit,that not many understand this.Look no further than this pages comments.You have to understand Gods personality here,he meant that they wouldn't eat.I dont know how what I have said doesn't make sense to you.God could have drove a stick in the ground and told them not to pull it out and the sin would have been the same.(cont)
b1foschiefs 10 months ago
@b1foschiefs I AM actually forcing a particular view onto scripture: the literalist one. Literalists don't get to interpret, so I'm trying to ask them what the Bible literally says, and if that makes sense. I accept your apologetics on this issue - and I disagree - but I think you are interpreting.
The main point I'm trying to make is that sin was not possible before the tree, because, as I read it, the ability to sin was contingent on the knowledge of good and evil - which Adam didn't have.
Gnug215 10 months ago
They died spiritually first of all, and they knew this because they were naked when before it was not a shame. Every person that has been saved has experienced this feeling of nakedness, guilt, before being covered by the righteous blood of Jesus Christ. The first blood shed on earth was the animal God slew to cover their nakedness.This is a type of Jesus sacrifice. Sorry I was critical of your video, I'm not a cat person..haaha.
b1foschiefs 10 months ago
@b1foschiefs Oh, lol, so it was the cat. Good to hear. I thought maybe it was my creeeepy voice.
I'm not sure I understand your response here. What is the sacrifice made, and why?
The thing that concerns me about this is, that it seems that, well, everything was just fine in Eden before that Tree got placed there.
The Tree became the temptation, the original temptation (to the original sin). The Tree seems, I'm sorry to say, like a downright curse.
Gnug215 10 months ago
@Gnug215 Well, the sacrifice was made by Jesus because after this disobedience mankind was cursed. You are right it was a curse.But the bible says cursed is anyone who hangs on a tree.Jesus became the curse for us,satisfying Gods justice on sin.See God loves justice as well as love,mercy,and grace.The command was clear, and withholding the punishment would make him a liar. Now Jesus received that punishment on our behalf, by uniting with him we have received our punishment through him.(cont)
b1foschiefs 10 months ago
The video is rather simplistic and creepy but to the proposed question: So that man might understand good and evil. Simple, it was not a test. It was for knowledge, hence the name, the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
b1foschiefs 11 months ago
@b1foschiefs I'm really sorry to hear that it's creepy, but well, it's mean to be a simplistic video. Or well, the question is basic.
To your answer: So you're saying that the tree was put there to give man knowledge of good and evil?
If so, why did God tell them not to eat of it?
Gnug215 10 months ago
@b1foschiefs With every command comes understanding of that command.The command was clear, not to eat of the fruit or you will die.We have a command and a consequence.I tell my children,"dont touch the stove because it is hot and will burn you" With this comes adequate knowledge to protect them.It is for a good reason that I tell them this right?The only knowledge that was gained was an experimental knowledge.But no knowledge was in the fruit itself,but knowing the consequence of sin.(cont)
b1foschiefs 10 months ago
If you knew what the tree represented, then you wouldn't ask silly questions. By the way, you need the spirit of God to understand his mysteries. Aren't you atheist suppose to be the enlighten ones. You haven't even gotten of the ground yet.
cmpresents 11 months ago
@cmpresents So basically, you don't have an answer.
I'm not an atheist, (I used to be Christian, but even back then I didn't know the answer - but hey, back then I didn't ask questions) and as far as I know, atheists generally don't consider themselves "enlightened".
But since you seem to be one who has the spirit of God, could you try to enlighten me with an answer to the mystery?
Gnug215 10 months ago
who cares? we ate the fruit, can't change the past. there's no sense in asking why. why is a question that cannot be answered, and in regards to the subject of any matter. why does your hand close when you want it to? well . . . you can't say why, you can't give account for stimulus. stimulus is that we now obtain knowledge. let's use it. the first step: we should harbor the knowledge to avoid ideological confrontation. ideology is beautiful as long as it's observed objectively. so why ask why?
almostcutmyhair101 11 months ago
@almostcutmyhair101 I'm basically asking the question to make an argument. It is my contention that the creation of this Tree does not correspond with the supposed nature of God and a divine plan.
Gnug215 10 months ago
well in the book of genesis it said that god told adam and eve not to eat from that tree but satan came like a serpent and told eve to take the fruit from the tree, then she gave one to adam( before they ate the fruit they were naked and not ashamed, but after they ate the fruit they got knowledge and saw themselves naked and started to put leaves on themselves to cover them) .
ice7227 11 months ago
@ice7227 Hi, sorry for the lateness of my reply (Google/gmail messed up.)
You're basically just reciting what Genesis writes about what happened after God had created the Tree of Knowledge, but I am asking about why God created the Tree in the first place.
Gnug215 10 months ago
test for Humanity and mankind
and because God is Wise
asorlonnn 1 year ago
@asorlonnn Did you even watch the entire video? It's not that long, you know.
But ok... so it was a test. And God, being wise and all-knowing, knew the result, did he not? So he set things up for failure?
And well, if you as a creator test your creations, and they fail, who is to blame?
Hell sure seems like a reasonable and fair punishment - for ALL humans, because of Adam and Eve's little test failure, doesn't it?
Gnug215 1 year ago
asorlonnn 11 months ago
@asorlonnn Wow, all Caps is really a pain to read. No (just about) punctuation makes it even harder. And... not making much sense makes it doubly hard. :)
I seriously don't get what you're saying here.
Gnug215 10 months ago
God could have made adam and eve so that they would do exactly what he wanted - but in that case he would have made robots - and not free humans gifted with a free will
thierry1312 1 year ago
@thierry1312 I know, but apparently, he made them knowing they would fail.
But that's not the worst of it. He also punished them, severely, when they failed. He didn't reprimand them, educate them, raise them, no, it was a one-time deal, and then punished with death and eternal suffering. And not just for Adam and Eve, but for EVERYone after that.
So again, given these conditions post and prior, with all of God's knowledge and power, why did he create that tree?
Gnug215 1 year ago
@Gnug215 i had a very hard time trying to understand this myself too gnug215.
but it was not for everyone after that - because true Jezus Christ everyone was and is given a second chance.
the best explanation about original sin i found on this page and website
will send the link privat because it seems not to be possible to place a link here
thierry1312 1 year ago
god created the tree because of exactly the same reason ed leedskalnin demanded to ring twice before opening his door
thierry1312 1 year ago
@thierry1312 I don't know wht Ed demanded that. A mystery by an eccentric, or do you know?
Gnug215 1 year ago
@Gnug215
if he asks you to ring twice and you ring three times then he knows that you are somebody who is not a suitable guest
if you cannot just do what he is asking you when you are standing outside, in front of the door then you will not do what he is asking when you are inside as well
the tree of knowledge had the same reason - god created the garden and adam and eve could do whatever they wanted - only one tree they had to leave alone - was that really asked to much ?
thierry1312 1 year ago
@thierry1312 A nice analogy, but I think it fails for a few reasons. 1: Adam and Eve didn't have knowledge of good and evil. (Why, btw?) 2: Someone tempted them, tricked them. 3: God, being omniscient, knew this would happen. 4: Why put the tree there, when God knew it would tempt them, and he knew if would happen? 5: Why put it there as a test? Why test your own creations?
And If your own creations fail, then who is to blame?
Gnug215 1 year ago
i know this only because i had the same problem in the past - i had a home for homeless and some of them even started a fire inside and things like that
if i would do this again i would make a little room in the home and i would say to every new guest only once that they are not alowed to enter that room and besides that they can do wathever they want - that room would be empty and there would be a camera in it
and those who enter it i would trow out immediately
thierry1312 1 year ago
and because i was thinking about a way to make sure to have only suitable guests, who do not need rules - but who are just prepared to do something when i ask it
thinking about that i understood why ed leedskalnin did this and later i understood that this was also the reason why God created the tree
thierry1312 1 year ago
also God did not say that they were not allowed to eat from the tree of life - that he only made impossible after that
so God gave adam and eve a choice - and thus there had to be a possibility to leave eden - and if not it would have been a prison - so the tree was also created to give adam and eve freedom
thierry1312 1 year ago
@Gnug215- You can show a believer that God himself says in the bible that He created evil, but they find a work around solution that always involves jumping through mental hoops. They've convinced themselves that He's always perfect. What % of evil must have been in this magical tree that God so "wisely" put here? Any logical, thinking person would have to conclude that God did put some amount of evil in that magical tree. The story can only be understood by those able to read between the lines.
RODikUlus 1 year ago
@RODikUlus You're right: the tree IS really evil, there is really no other way around it. It surprises and baffles me that this myth is still used as theology. Even the more liberal Christians seem to espouse it, pretty much as is. There are more layers to it than they seem to grasp - or perhaps want to, because it's deeply problematic. As you say, knowledge, but clearly, the knowledge from the tree did not make us like God or gods. And eternal life would not do so, either.
Gnug215 1 year ago
@Gnug215 According to the myth, having both the knowledge, and living forever is what would make us God's equal. That's why He gets threatened when man got to close. Having knowledge of good & bad ( essentially...all there is to know) coupled with living forever ( living as long as god does) puts us on God's level. In Gen 3, God is made to say, Look, man has become as one of us ( Elohim) in knowing, so that he doesn't (also) partake of the tree of life, and live forever, lets keep him from it!
RODikUlus 1 year ago
@RODikUlus Yes, but that's according to the myth, but if we listen to the rest of the entire mythology, then we find that God is much more than able to live forever with knowledge of good and evil. It doesn't make any sense in any way that God would be threatened by this. It would, however, make more sense in a kind of semi-misguided parent-knows-best kind of way if God felt humans couldn't handle knowledge/eternity. But no, he thought man would be a threat. Very strange, I think.
Gnug215 1 year ago
@Gnug215 A God who acknowledges that there is knowledge He doesn't want you to have=He's hiding something.
Anyone who tries to hold you back from knowledge isn't trying to protect you, they want to get over on you. Why else would a "powerful" God be threatened by His own creation? And He can tell the future too?!?!?!?! Makes no sense, no matter how many mental hoops the religious person makes. In the myth, man could theoretically handled both... just God didn't want to face that reality. Hmm
RODikUlus 1 year ago
@RODikUlus I agree, withholding knowledge isn't a friend, but I think a patriarchical society from way back when would indeed extol that as a virtue. I believe the same mentality is what has been behind the, well, let's just say misogyny for so many centuries.
It is indeed a limited, flawed and petty God presented in these myths. The apologists have been working overtime to fix these monumental problems - and it frigging worked on many people. :(
Gnug215 1 year ago
@Gnug215- Observant man knew they would die, but that they can always learn more. That's why they placed knowledge as the one thing we did get, & the everlasting life portion remaining elusive. Men were always dying, but they never understood why, so they made up myths to explain that which is unexplainable. If the Pandoras Box myth was in the bible to explain how evil got into the world, they'd believe it! Biblical God placed a tree here with evil in it, but they"ll never see it that way.
RODikUlus 1 year ago
What EXACTLY was the test? The test was to see if they would trust Him completely and understand His love for them. Given another option, whether evil or not, they failed the test. They desired to give up eternal life for power. They seemed in close contact with God, so it seems they could have called on Him for support. They must have been intelligent and understood what death was or why would God even tell them this? If I were Eve I'd have asked the devil why he hadn't eaten the fruit.
TheFalcon2227 1 year ago
@TheFalcon2227 Well, Eve acts quite... stupidly, doesn't she? If I were Eve, I would have done the same. Why didn't she? Genesis 3 doesn't say a lot about the thought process of Eve (or Adam, who is just handed the fruit by Eve). She acts very much like a small child. Perhaps understandably, because she can't distinguish between good and evil.
But why did God even have to plant the tree there? And then tell them "here's a tree with fruits... but don't eat them."
Gnug215 1 year ago
@Gnug215 Its an occult book describing several completely opposed religions at times. But, if your not familiar with the occult it will make it impossible to understand. The first example is that the Lord God create man in his image and likeness creating both male and female but this was before Eve. This is explaining the dual nature of the universe according to the Mystery Schools. There is no point in arguing with literalist about this, they dont want do the work it takes to understand.
Maniac50AE 1 year ago
@Maniac50AE I know it's fairly pointless to preach to the extremists - or the choir, for that matter. What I'm hoping to do is to reach the moderates, the fence-sitters, the undecided, or those on the extreme who are there by accident, so to speak.
Gnug215 1 year ago
2 options, 1 choice? This tree or that tree? To eat or not to eat? To believe or not to believe? To trust or not to trust? To fear or not to fear? To try or not to try? To die or not to die? Alot of things probably happened and were contemplated in the heart during this presentation. Does God want to end up those He has to force into loyalty or those who give it freely and totally because they want to?
TheFalcon2227 1 year ago
@TheFalcon2227 I'm not sure if your questions capture what I consider the main points of the dilemma; because what kind of a choice was this if Adam and Eve didn't even have the capability to distinguish between the good and evil of the choice?
And God must have known what they would end up choosing, right? And even if he didn't, the circumstance of the choice wasn't fair either, since only the devil was present at the time of choosing.
God had a right to test humans, but was the test fair?
Gnug215 1 year ago
How about this? God gave man a free will so that man's love,praise and fellowship would be by choice not force.There was initially only one commandment...don't eat or even touch the fruit of that tree.What good is having a free will if there is no way to excercise that will? Therefore,the tree was placed there to provide an opptunity to obey or disobey.
IAMreallyNotREAL 1 year ago
@IAMreallyNotREAL But the problem is that eating the fruit of the tree was the very thing that would enable humans to distinguish good from evil. Before that, they were just... children, robots, whatever. Then Satan comes along and confuses them, and BAM, punishment.
Added to that, being omniscient, God would have been able to see that this would happen - and see WHILE it was happening. Was he busy watching CSI that day or something?
It just doesn't make sense.
Gnug215 1 year ago
@Gnug215 -Great video. The creation account is an aesops fable. It's saying that mankind has 2 innate desires ( to have more life & more knowledge), yet they will always elusively escape mankind.
If he choose to have more life, then he couldn't have more knowledge.vice versa. We can't deny that we do want those things. This is a myth created by observant men. There are chinese proverbs too. You'll see apologist talk about free will, but if God hardened Pharoahs heart, where was his free will?
RODikUlus 1 year ago
@RODikUlus Interesting comment, thanks. I've felt for a long time that there actually was something clever and observant behind the myth. My take on the meaning behind it, though, is more along the lines of "ignorance is bliss", and the burden of conscience, so to speak. It seems to be the one thing that truly distinguishes us from animals, so in that regard it is indeed a clever myth.
Also, God hardens a LOT of hearts in the Bible. Check ProfMTH's latest vid on that. Great stuff.
Gnug215 1 year ago
@Gnug215 Hey, thanks. I'll have to check that out later. My shift drags on till tomorrow. I'm too lazy to make a video, so I'm glad you did. The Genesis account has people beLIEving that a loving God actually created man with 2 innate desires, puts both "cures" right in front of man, & basically teases us by not letting us have both. This "God" makes it possible to (A) live as long as Him, &(B) know what He knows, yet gets threatened when we know something He doesn't want us knowing.
RODikUlus 1 year ago
@RODikUlus I'm glad you liked the vid, but as it's become evident here, there is a lot more meat on this tree, so you could easily make a few vids about it. :)
Gnug215 1 year ago
@Gnug215 -You are correct with the Matrix "ignorance is bliss" also, as aesops fables always have more than 1 lesson in them. There are plenty, and you can find plenty in your local library. Did believers notice that God only kept man away from the tree of life, cuz He was fearful of man having His knowledge, coupled with everlasting life? So man, after "sinning", is able to live forever. This goes against death being a result of sin as an absolute truth.
RODikUlus 1 year ago
@IAMreallyNotREAL -But, by God putting a tree there named "the tree of the knowledge of good & evil", how can it be said that God didn't create evil? Biblical God, in your own bible says He created evil.
The "free will" doctrine only attempts to take away ANY responsibilty, from an omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient being. How do you take away ALL blame from an all-knowing being who started the ball roilling on everything? By shifting the blame. God shifts the blame before Eve did.
RODikUlus 1 year ago
because after they ate of it their eyes were opened and it states they have become now as God knowing right from wrong and now they will have to eat of the fruit of the tree of life. He forknew this and foreknew he would come here before he created this universe. He is reproducing himsel-f but also there was genetic corruption due to the fallen angels breeding with daughters of men afterward. The bible refers to them as Nephiliun and much older Sumerian tablets call then Ananuaki
Thundralight 1 year ago
@Thundralight Now you're not making any sense. Read my comment again.
God foreknew all of this, as you also admit, and yet he let it happen - not only that, he specifically created all the conditions that would ensure this outcome. If the weakness of humans is to blame, then God is to blame for creating that weakness. If the devil and his fellow fallen angels are to blame, then again, God is to blame for creating those (and letting them roam free on Earth!?!)
Gnug215 1 year ago
Because we are his children and you teach your children right from wrong. God foreknew they would do this and made a way of salvation
Thundralight 1 year ago
@Thundralight Teach your children right from wrong? But God wanted them to NOT know right from wrong, since he forbade them from eating from the tree, remember? And yes, God foreknew that so many of us would supposedly end up in Hell, not so much by free will but by "design". Also, that salvation didn't come for some 4000 years - and still hasn't come to all. Tough luck for them, I guess, huh?
Gnug215 1 year ago
funny observation: God punishes man for taking Knowledge (from the tree). The only way to gain immortality (be saved) is to believe in something seemingly impossible: God. Basically, ignorance is bliss!
CetraTJ 1 year ago
@CetraTJ You know, "Ignorance is bliss" is exactly the observation I've made in that regard. I guess that's pretty consistent with some of the other messages in the Bible.
Gnug215 1 year ago
Love is a choice. If God hadn't given Adam and Eve a choice, then there would have been no real love. God created us to love and to be loved by Him. Real love is a choice, so there had to be an opportunity to choose.
eternalpunx 2 years ago
@eternalpunx It seems pretty clear from reading Genesis that the choice wasn't clear, and the action (of eating the apple) was mindless, to say the least.
It doesn't read like conscious choice from Eve - and least of all Adam who just seems to take of something that Eve hands him - who just seems curious, and duped by the talking snake.
Besides, the warning from God about the tree is that they'll "surely die", not that they'll turn against God. And who'd be stupid enough to want to die?
Gnug215 2 years ago
@eternalpunx God loves my nuts, he whispers it into my ears at night.
nameofmeAJ 1 year ago
I am not reading a narrative of their feelings but rather echoing the arguments that were put to them immediately before consuming the fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (FKGE I think I'll use frm now on!)
God told them not to eat it or else they would die. Satan told them to eat it because then they would be like God (knowing both good and evil). This suggests strongly that they wanted to be like God.
perfacetus 2 years ago
Sorry to clarify the humans Adam and Eve, not we as in you and I.
Which part do you mean when you ask 'where are you reading this from'?
perfacetus 2 years ago
No worries.
They had been making the decision of what to have for breakfast since they were created.
The decision they made was to know how to sin. Sin by nature involves the hurting of someone, either oneself or another. They wanted to know how to do evil and that is what they got, hardly a suprise that people get hurt as a result.
He told them not to eat it. We were the berks who did so inspite of this advice.
perfacetus 2 years ago
bullshit...because apparently before they ate the fruit they didnt know what GOOD was either...because it was the tree of the knowledge of GOOD and evil! Before the fruit, we were automotons. The fruit actually freed humanity!
kellann55 2 years ago
It did 'free' humanity in the sense that it made us know how to sin and therefore free to do so. I have no disagreement with that.
What we then did with that freedom was exercise it, and look where that has got us. If you like the effects of sin in this world that is your call. No one can force you to do good.
perfacetus 2 years ago