Atari 8bit Turrican engine

[R6502A]

I keep getting Error, try again when I post the vid link:

Seach for : "Atari 8-bit - Project-M (game Wolfenstein 3D)" and click on the first video. The C64 could not dream of such a game.

[R6502A]

@Ahle2

Let's see the C64 attmept this. Please don't post that wanting M.O.O.D demo as a response. Lol!

[1xWertzui]

Your fanboy argument made me smile! :) And also thanks for the lots of technical information (if they're nearly accurate)

A pity there weren't/aren't any Atari 8bit computers in Hungary, I wan't to have one in my collection, no matter if it is better than the C64 or not.

But I only know the C64 so I that's what I can prefer.

[adv7678]

You should finish this work.

[LexorzNL]

It's really sad that many people still think the Atari can not do this, can not do that. The c64 had more coders because the c64 sold better then the XL/XE. Finally slowly more people are exploring the REAL capabilities of the XL/XE. I would see the faces of those c64 freaks when those games show up showing the XL/XE is more capable of what they think. By the way, I have heared new sounds from the atari's pokey chip which shows that even the SID chip is not that special anymore.

[maiki60fps]

@LexorzNL You forget to realize Atari 800 was introduced in 1979 whereas C-64 1982. As a result of this straight fact, the C-64 has considerably more capable video processor - higher resolution, more HW sprites etc. Of course you can do "scanline-based 2600-like" programming on Atari 800, but the same approach can be done on C-64...

[zombiemod]

I wonder if an Atari could do a Mega Apocalypse type game (stir, stir) ? lmfao

[AbsurdistLover]

Wow... That is a valiant attempt! I can sort of see why it never got beyond the proof-of-concept stage, though...

[Lutanamo]

Pretty cool how this kind of stuff can be made with the Atari! My only problem with these newer games and proof of concepts etc is that why on earth do they have to use such DARK colors? You can't almost see what the heck is going on. Atari can display bright colors, right? So why make everything so dark and hard to see?

[zombiemod]

Look, when are people going to accept that the Atari 800's limitations don't lend it to scrolling games like Turrican?

Atari 800 was limited to 160 x 192 with 4 colours per scanline, remember, whereas the C64 could handle 320 x 200 with 16 per scanline - no DLIs (or Raster Interrupts in C64 terminology) needed.

Atari 800 was great for static games like Henry's house, and pictures, but as soon as things start to move its limitations become apparent.

[thorstenguenther]

It would be a great idea to check the "limitations" of the hardware you are talking about before making claims as this one. The Atari 8-bit line has does multi-directional scrolling in hardware, as you can easily see in titles like "Cavelord", "Druid" or even the very early title "Dandy". The game "Schreckenstein" even has a split screen with independent multi-directional scrolling.

[zombiemod]

I can see from the video the scrolling is fine. It's the colour limitations I am on about. Due to 4 colours per scanline at 160 x 192, your maps will all have a "samey" colour scheme to them if your games scroll horizontally.. You can't vary the colours on a per-column basis as you can with the C64.

[EdinburghGuy]

You could reprogram the screen setup of the Atari 800 to change the entire size of a map to be larger than the visible area. Then you could reprogram the character set (just like tiles on the console systems) . There was even hardware control for fine (or scanline scrolling). And updates to the visuals could be done during the vertical blank interrupt.

Sounds like it was designed for scrolling games.

[zombiemod]

Yup but with only 4 colours per scanline, if you scroll left or right to a new area of the map, your new area has to share the same colours as the old area. Thats the limitation that the C64 does not have.

BTW the C64 also allows character set redefinition, smooth scroll in horizontal and vertical, change screen mode on raster lines.

Why I'm arguing about a 27 year old machine is anyone's guess!!! lol

[thorgallpl]

@zombiemod crownland with its 24 colors on screen and 4 layers of paralax shits all over the best game in c64 history-mayhem in monsterland and you say that turrican cannot be done on atari LOL but ill have to admit that ill never play turrican on my atari cause nobody has time to do so much work to optimalize the engine.

[zombiemod]

@thorgallpl I didn't say Turrican can't be done, I just said you can't beat the 4 colours per scanline restriction *and* have it scrolling new areas in different colours. PM graphics and map tiles have to share the same colours per raster line. Also, that Crownland needs an XE system, not a stock XL from 1979.

Mayhem in Monsterland is the best game in C64 history? I completely disagree there. There's so many fantastic C64 games available, can't see why a platformer would be the best.

[thorgallpl]

@zombiemod and whats the difference between the xl and xe series? lol btw. mayhem in monsterland is the most advanced c64 game of all time.

[zombiemod]

@thorgallpl 64K is the difference, Crownland needs a 130xe system.

Mayhem in Monsterland most advanced?? It's a platformer!! I would say there's other games that are more "amazing" such as Mercenary, The Sentinel, Stunt Car Racer, R-Type, Katakis, Armalyte, Last Ninja....

BTW I'm interested in this crownland game, very colourful.

[thorgallpl]

@zombiemod theres no difference between the xl and xe series(well, they redesigned the casing) the only model with more memory is the 130xe. i didnt know crownland needs more than 64 kb of ram.

[zombiemod]

@thorgallpl What I want to know is how crownland achieved more than 4 colours per scanline at a fairly high resolution (for an Atari) - I googled for information on the game and couldn't find anything. I understand there's RIP mode which can show more than 4 colours per line, but this is for static images is it not? The timing required - surely this would cause flicker on a TV? If you know how the devs did it, let me know.

[thorgallpl]

@zombiemod they used some DL tricks.thats why it requires 124kb of ram. i ve found some info on this game but its in polish. btw. clever ppl, aint they?

[zombiemod]

@thorgallpl So, we have proven a stock Atari 800 cannot beat a C64 :)

Crownland is very clever - I'd love to know how they did it, what DLI tricks they are using, and whether the game flickers on a TV cos I have seen other Atari games with plenty of colour that flickered due to interlacing and pixel shifting trickery.

Don't get me wrong, I am quite impressed by what they have done, mind you it's still nowhere near as good looking as Katakis on C64! ;)

[thorgallpl]

@zombiemod it just proves that c64 is better for games which need many sprites. 3d games or games such as henrys house look infinitely better on a800. i seriously doubt that yoomp would look any good on c64... and the horrbile c64 colors...ive just checked out the IK. the c64 ver. looks bland!

[zombiemod]

I knew Henry's house would get mentioned! Henry's house is dire on the C64. I would rather have a game like Creatures compared tbh, much better use of C64 colour capacity.

IK's graphics on the C64 are OK, IK+'s are better - oops, the Atari doesn't have that ;) (OK, I know a 130xe version was created by some guy - not Archer McLean - but thats not stock Atari 800)

[thorgallpl]

@zombiemod oh dear.atari's HH can look much better too.its the c64 limited color palette which makes its games look bland. i doesnt mean they all suck. no! both machines are very old but still have dedicated fans and thats what matters.btw my old cellphone is capable of much more than either of the 2 8 bitters , mate :)

[zombiemod]

@thorgallpl the fact of the matter thor is that the majority of arcade games in the 80's were 2D scrollers, and the C64 could do that standing on its head with 16 colours at once and sprites filling the screen. That is why it sold more, people wanted a computer that could run games like the arcade. By 1986 the Atari 800 software scene was almost dead, whereas the C64 was thriving, being pushed to its limits with ports of R-Type, Salamander and its clones.

[thorgallpl]

@zombiemod it happened so because atari itself killed a800. atari was known for dire marketing. they released 2 consoles and lost lots of money. a800 could handle all games released for c64 . some would look worse (c64 ports always looked worse and vice versa),some would look better. look, even poor rubber made spectrum got r type:)

[zombiemod]

@thorgallpl Atari was doing OK with the ST over here. It was when they released the Falcon that they started losing cash hand over fist.

I don't believe poor marketing was the 800's downfall; I believe the C64 was more popular because it was more capable, had more memory (a full, proper 64K of RAM - yes, all of it, you could turn the BASIC ROM off) yet was less expensive.

Haha, yeah arguing over old machines is pointless I suppose but fun nonetheless, and it shows our love for them :p

[thorgallpl]

@zombiemod the xe series was way too pricey,c64 offered more for less money(as far as games are concerned).atari introduced a new video console 5200 and 7800 (another failure).in the meantime a800 died out in the uk.no market =no good games.all major companies cancelled their projects(e.g. elite(i even own a working demo of this game) ,last ninja, and many more). the only success was the st series. jaguar was the last nail in the coffin of the company.

[R6502A]

@thorgallpl : Fanboy

[R6502A]

@zombiemod : @zombiemod: This is pure ignorance. The Atari 8 bit could access all 64K of RAM, with the exception of the 2k reserved for port/device adresses. You could access all the RAM that resided under the operating system, via Port B. This is how the Atari translator disk was able to replace the operating system with an older version, allowing new machines to work with older software. You can also disable the BASIC ROM using the same method.

[zombiemod]

@R6502A ZZZZzzzzzzzzzz............. you forgot to mention it was the 800XL, released in 1983, a year after the C64, not the stock 800, that had full 64K.. and even then it was still inferior.. but really, who cares?? C64 > Atari. Deal with it!

[R6502A]

@zombiemod : Why do us Atari fans forever have to endure c64 fanboys rubbishing Atari on Atari posts?

The Atari 8 bit and the c64 are not as far apart as the c64 fanboy scene would have you believe.

Your typical C64 fanboy is under the delusion that the c64 revolutionised graphics and sound in computing.

[R6502A]

@zombiemod Typical inaccurasies I've heard over the years are:

The c64 can do Multiplane Parallax scrolling. Err no it can't! All too often c64 fanboys give the false impression that the c64 had true parallax scrolling, like the MegaDrive). This is an illusion using character set rotation, easily done on both machines.

[R6502A]

@zombiemod : Another myth is that the character set redifinition is superior on the c64 because you can redefine all 256 characters but the atari has a limitation of only allowing 128 characters to be redifined, with the other half (high bit set) used to get a 5th colour on a scanline. Yes Atari can do 5 colours per scanline as standard! The Atari gets around this by having the DLI, allowing a different Character set to be used on each line.

[R6502A]

@zombiemod : Yet Another myth is the SID (Changed music as we know it) device that they all rave about is leaps and bounds ahead of POKEY. yes it is if you like listening to 3 channel music through ear muffs.

[R6502A]

@zombiemod If you look at the design of both machines. The Atari 8 bit is elegant and the design ideas were improved apon to produce the c64 fanboy's beloved Amiga. Plain and simply the the c64 is crass!

C64 fanboys please, pretty please stay in your candy coloured ear muff world and leave the Atari 8 bit alone.

R6502A

[zombiemod]

@R6502A OK - I'll bite. Give me some amazing Atari soundtracks that are better than, say, Commando on C64 or Rambo First Blood Part 2 loader. Give me examples of technical achievements that surpass Mega Apocalypse on C64 (speech samples + faux 4 channel audio)

[zombiemod]

@R6502A So what if you can get 5 colours on a scanline? On a C64 you can get 16, at a 320 x 200 resolution, without any DLI tricks or "extra-halfbrite" trickery.

[olynxmano]

@R6502A

Atari can actually display more than 21 colours per scanline, which is more than the C64 has at all. Programming logics is the clue.

[zombiemod]

@R6502A  As it so happens, if you use multiplexed sprites, you can parallax scroll the background without any character trickery. Indeed many C64 demos use multiplexed sprites for scrollies while keeping a stationary background.

[olynxmano]

@zombiemod

The Atari beats the C64 in 3D BY FAR, and EVERY DAY.

[Ahle2]

I don't think it would be possible to do Turrican in 50 FPS with large sprites like the C64 version, even with all available tricks in the world..

Many people believes that the Atari was superior because it had a larger palette and a faster CPU. Well, was it? (ofcourse not)

[mcappp]

Both machines 130XE and c64 are very capable machines. Some things Atari can do better, other things C64 do better. I'd prefer finally the old 1979 Atari tech, impressive what can do with a machine from that year.

[Stopmotionist]

1978, actually.

Which makes it even more impressive.

[r8qt7]

Don´t bother mcappp - Ahle2 is bitching around all the time ...

[Ahle2]

I´m sorry if that is how you feel :(

As a hardware developer, retro nerd and a software developer i like to compare different systems and point out some FACTS.... but people tend to be a little bit emotional when i say "bad" things about their beloved systems.

Atari 800 is better for 3D games and softwares.

C64 is better for 2D games and sound/music.

BTW, i do own a lot of retro computers (10 to be exact), but i currently do not have an Atari 800 :(

[olynxmano]

Particular Fullscreen "3D" the Atari handles much faster. Have a look at the Space Harrier project, Yoomp! , Rescue on Fractalus , and not to forget : Koronis Rift. Such games on The C64 always make people think that the C64 is way older than the Atari....

And Btw... Huge Sprites, don't forget that the "Sprites" on the Atari are 240 scanlines high by default.

[waskoma]

the atari HW has bad compromises. 128 colors of which normally only 4 can be displayed. unusable gfx modes, HW scrolling and a "copper".

c64: can display 16 colors in its default modes, hw scrolling/copper can be done with the cpu relatively easily, while the atari has bloody hard time with doing soft sprites...

so at the end of the day, the c64 wins with better custom chips. what atari has as an extra is a slightly faster clocked cpu... which is not enough to compensate for bad sprites..

[sctriplefox]

I love the Atari but I have to admit that the C64 usually looks better in period games....Atari can look better only if the game is designed around the hardware. Good for tech demos and hobbyists, not so good for commercial products with limited time/budget.

[Stopmotionist]

Where can I get this?

[gumdeo]

Looks like Turrican 2 (level 1).

[inphanta]

What a mess!

[thorgallpl]

@inphanta

so are you LOL

[boghead]

Looks gr8 :)

[mcappp]

Actually is Gr.15 160x100 with 5 colors (black, white, green, Blue and purple)

[RABBIDGamfan]

He said it looked GREAT, not like gr. 8. gr8 is what the use for the word great on online chat rooms.

[1337Shockwav3]

Pretty cool, too bad it's that unfinished