The Baader Meinhof Complex review by Kenneth Turan

[antigen4]

irresponsible clips. irresponsible review. nice spin, kenneth.

[antigen4]

There are some REALLY ignorant comments on this thread regarding their 'brutality' - they were EXTREMELY cautious not to hurt innocent civilians - and those that were hurt or killed in their name must be properly attributed to NATO actions through Gladio members - if you're interested in finding out more - just search for 'gladio' here on youtube. These are right wing NATO terrorists who would bomb civilians to discredit left wing groups trying to fix problems with society.

[Tiwaking]

Great review, but the movie was terrible.

[antigen4]

@Tiwaking i found the opposite.

[riddimrom]

the boundless arrogance of the ruling elite in Germany, ranging from minor officials, were then shown their limits.

[888snuffy]

Thumps up from me!

[groinhat]

A crappy sensationalist review of a brilliant film. Obviously the first half is full of explosions and guns, cos that's what they did, duh! And obviously the second half is full of wanky soul-searching, cos that's what happens when you're on a lifer, duh! But what do they know in LA about Europe?

Excellent film. A subject that polarised opinion for decades is shown as complicated, motives are made clear but not judged. Powerful viewing.

The system sucks but careful with that bomb, Eugene.

[edgar0001]

ach ja jetzt haben sie Baader -Meinhoff zu Bankräubern gemacht .... naja das Übliche eben

[LoyolaIgnatius]

One day people will remember the RAF as the modern Robin Hood. 99% of the society hasn't gotten there yet. Most of the people don't have a clue that most of the terrorist attacks perpetrated in this world are sponsored by secret services. 9/11 for example - independant scientists have found an ultra modern version of an explosive called nanothermite in the WTC dust. So that proves something! The RAF was real and trying to wake up the blind society, which ignores most of the misery in the world!

[metullica]

what proves this video??

the raf was raf was nothing more than a killercommando.

[schizoidboy]

@daveedslater I support no terrorist group whatsoever but from what little history I do know I agree. When one considers the fact that IRA and other Irish groups have been around for a long time and have a tradition as well as experience (they can practically teach what they know in an academy.) The German groups had neither and had a tendency to rely on the Palestinians to train and finance them.

[deville487]

This is no review, this is a commented trailer. ^^

[Oblfreak]

@daveedslater

have u actually read something from them?

[jambi880]

What? This is a review of the movie?? Sounds more like a tagline.

[1430gt]

brilliant film, lost count how many times i have watched it

[folladordeprostis]

They had the support of cuban press

[wharghoul]

@daveedslater You forgot their biggest failing, which was that they never tried to reach out to the community and find popular support.

That, more than anything else, is why they failed. The IRA were visible in their communities. They ran off drug dealers and walked kids to school. Lots of average, working class people admired them, if not outright supported them.

That means when the IRA needed it, they had help, manpower or even just a place to hide.

[mcwolfus]

No.. as in any system is flawed in some minor way, there is always room for a little improvement. Germany was a post war miracle as you say, However there is NO such thing as 100% perfection when you are trying to satify the needs and asparations of individuals in a large population. This bunch reacted disproportionately to the inperfections in the German system. They would have been murderers anywhere, anyway, it just happened Germany got them. they are dead and hopefully largely forgotton.

[joaquinveyron]

@daveedslater Thanks for uploading this movie. I don t know what makes me puke more. Either these atrocious and cowardous crimes committed by the RAF or the dumb, unthoughtful, stupid ideological indoctrination, mental blockade and lies of the RAF members. If you really think about what the RAF members say, their stupidity and ideological blindness really hurts. It makes me puke that they even think that they did things for a "good, just" cause. Yuck!

[mcwolfus]

And replace capitalism with what? Capitalism works because it largely satisfies many of the human needs and aspirations, so good, whats wrong with that? Once people are fed and housed, there becomes a struggle to grab as much additional wealth as possible, and that will always be the case. AND, no political system is ever right for everyone and you will find that no matter who or what people or persons were in power, you who find only a few of of its member were ever entirely happy for long.

[joaquinveyron]

@mcwolfus

And what they did in Stammheim, was even more ridiculous. Striking for better detainment conditions (which they even had!!) and calling the police officers pigs and the prison a "pig system". Yep, I am soooo sorry that you don´t get a 5 star hotel as accomodation, if you are a criminal. And if they really believed to be "freedom fighters", then they would have taken their prison term as necessary victim on the way to freedom, just as they killed others.

[mcwolfus]

@joaquinveyron Agreed. They were 'Intellectuals', who talked shite because they liked sthe sound of thei own voices. If they were into art, then they would have hung around in art galleries drinking claret and eating canopies. Harmless. In a way they were niave, naive and very arrogant, it is not uncommon in modern western humans.

[joaquinveyron]

@mcwolfus Well, lets say pseudo-intellectuals who obviously have not done their homework or thought to the end what they were thinking. I mean, what did they want to do?? Turn Western Germany into another communist shithole like all those already existing?? And then bombing and killing out of the way everybody who they disagreed with what they were thinking, saying or doing?? How more fascist can you be??

[joaquinveyron]

@mcwolfus

And then, the most abused word of lefties is solidarity, which, of course, is only valid as long as they benefit from it. As soon as they are asked to contribute to the community, they scream like little pigs. Oh, I could write a book about the ignorance, stupidiyz, arrogance and hipocrisy of lefties.

[joaquinveyron]

@mcwolfus

They really dared to compare the conditions of the prison Stammheim where they were incarcerated as similar to those in Ausschwitz. What a blasphemy and mockery of the victims of the holocaust!! In particular, because the conditions of detention were much, much better than those of normal prison inmates. If they really were "freedom fighters" as they believed to be (no, they werent), then they would have taken their detention as a necessary sacrifice to the cause.

[mcwolfus]

@joaquinveyron Why didnt they just fuck over the wall to East Germany? They could have lived in poverty and repression there. 

[joaquinveyron]

@mcwolfus

I dont know. I think it is out of the compassion of lefties for the poor and miserable. They love the poor and miserable so much. They want everybody to be like this. So, I guess they want to grant the (dis)pleasure of communism to their compatriots in the west as well. They also could have gone to North Korea, SU, Mao China or Cambodia ... also very "lovely" communist countries.

[mcwolfus]

@joaquinveyron I think much of their motivation was just to be the ones responsible for change. they were just arrogant, dumbasses, who love the feeling of some power, and trying to destroy a system that was flawed, but still very functional, and one that they should have been very grateful to have been born into.

[joaquinveyron]

@mcwolfus

"motivation was just to be the ones responsible for change."

Change??? What change??? Thats exactly what I am saying. They were babbling something socialism, heard the promise of a "such a wonderful world" (which of course never existed and ended in absolute NIGHTMARES, ALWAYS), but they were not an inch aware of what exactly they were persuing or whether what they were persuing actually would be functional or not. So what change???

[joaquinveyron]

@mcwolfus

"system that was flawed, but still very functiona"

Politically, Germany certainly had the heavy burden of national-socioalism, but where was the system flawed in Germany??? The free social market economy was a success story after WW2.

[mcwolfus]

@joaquinveyron Its funny, because I was asked yesterday where and when I would have liked to live, and I said Germany in the Seventies as first choice.

[joaquinveyron]

@mcwolfus

You are English and your first choice to live was Germany ?? :-)

Interesting :-)

[YourTubeSpellChecker]

The RAF were assholes. Only with the whole working-class uniting against capitalism in one movement can capitalism be destroyed. RAF were just clueless fantasists.

[mcwolfus]

@YourTubeSpellChecker ...And after capatalism is destroyed, then what?

[YourTubeSpellChecker]

@mcwolfus Socialism.  A decentralized society run from the bottom up.

[mcwolfus]

@YourTubeSpellChecker, I know a lot of working class people, and so do they all, and i mean all,( because we dont want any more trouble later), want to destroy capatalism? and does that mean that the working classes, ( however you define them I dont know exactly), wish to live in a communist state? I agree, that they were aresholes though. please advise

[YourTubeSpellChecker]

@mcwolfus There is no such thing as a communist state, communism is a stateless society. Do working-class people want to destroy capitalism? Not all of them, but then that's our job to persuade.

[sonnylow86]

to me left wing or right wing oso gt fascism cuz both gt leadership, to me small control or big control from both wing r still control by a leader r still fascism oso, n i oso have doubt abt anarchy

cuz i don think in the whole world there's a real anarchy, mayb in dream no in the real world,

cuz it impossible in this whole world 2 have anarchy cuz every country have they r own dictator, bt don gt me wrong i oso hope that a real anarchy will happen in this world...

[MrNemy86]

many call the raf 'dead enders' but aren't we the same with our countries being ran by corporations, unjust wars, embarrassing public school/healthcare programs, same-sex marriage bans etc.? do any of you really think we can have real change without violence (french rev, revolutionary war, civil war, ww2) or do we keep on voting for corp puppetwhores? is keeping the peace worth sacrificing our humanity?

[Seaworldexists]

@MrNemy86 Revolutions are rarely successful in the long term because you cant create a nation out of ink. We simply need Americans to be freed from the left right paradigm. I mean after the last two years this shit cant possibly go on for much longer.

[lordSabazios666]

@daveedslater Sartre met Baader in his last days, he never branded him an idiot, he said that Baader was disappointed at him for not agreeing with the anarchistic acts that the RAF had committed...Although Sartre was a leftist, he never was politically engaged, and one of the RAF's philosophies was that theoretical masturbation led to nowhere.

[nickophonicnicky]

@lordSabazios666

Thank you for that clarification. It doesn't seem that someone like Sartre would call someone an idiot without explanation.

[Defender934]

People who think that these student arseholes were "Just Revolutionaries" against "oppressive Socities" need their heads checked.

people who idolise or think their was anything righteous with these monsters or their ideals are no diffrent to people who idealise Hitler or Nazism, no matter how they like to think so.

Also again, these people were mainly from Middle class backgrounds, they suffer nothing and didnt understand anything the true working man goes through or deals with.

[swunt10]

@daveedslater satre never called baader an idiot. why the fuck do you want to change history? don't you have anything else to do? satre (what a joke that he was the greatest frenche philosopher of the 20.century) sympathized with the group and he wanted to introduce a international committee with members like heinrich böll a.s.o. to free the "political prisoners". he didn't had the same political goals like this group, he called it "pol. irrelevant" but he also wanted a new society.

[ronnie12398]

@swunt10

Sartre said "what an asshole" after his meeting in prison with Andreas Baader. Baader was an idiot too.

[loosekarrott]

@daveedslater you need to differenciate between the different generations of the group. ulrike meinhof was far from semi-intellectual, and alfred klaus called them "very intelligent".

[caravaggio31]

What 'inocent' people they killed? A banker? A nazi thycoon? A prosecutor who had no mercy with they comrades imprisioned and sick? Guards? American soldiers?

Maybe Schleyer chauffer..(?)

Those kills never killed children with Napalm.

[scottlarrock80]

@caravaggio31 you are stupid... murder is murder, there is no "good murdering".

[caravaggio31]

@scottlarrock80 Yes, kill Hitler would be a 'bad murder'..

[scottlarrock80]

@caravaggio31 yes, because it would effect the history dramatically. and you never now what would have happened without hitler.

maybe the future of today would be even worse. so just killing hitler is a much to simple solution.

[caravaggio31]

They did something. And died for that.

RIP Baader-Meinhof.

[IzzyCookieStar]

Well... I'm from Germany and absolutely love this movie and I'm fascinated by the whole story, even I was born 1991.

I think it's much more than just a normal "action"- movie. It's far more complex and controversial than it was promoted. This movie makes you think about it and makes you wonder who the bad guys are without using stupid dialogues or effects that other movies need to use to bring the story forward; and that's something not many movies do. (sry for my bad english- skills).

[Swordman85]

@IzzyCookieStar

I liked this movie! It's not a kind of movie that presents them like heroes, but it also does not present them like demons. In my opinion the German cinema is very mature at this point. The actors look like finger chosen models, I didn't know that Germany have so many beautiful girls, however after research their biografy, I noticed that RAF girls were really beautiful!

[IzzyCookieStar]

@Swordman85

That's true... XD They were really pretty.

[rhpsfan1929]

@daveedslater They wanted to revenge the death of a student, who was killed by the police in the early 60s. Or at least his death started the whole thing. But in reality I think it's far more complex and controversial.

The RAF was just a bunch of sick idiots...

[saveyoursoul1]

Another RAF it's necessary

[dufvasven]

@daveedslater

That might be so, but they were people standing up against an oppressive society trying to make a change. By all means not a good way of doing it and I wish their passion had been channelled in a more non-violent way and inspired the masses to do the same.

Now if we look at society today, it's just gone down the drain when it comes to social and political awarness... and what we need is more people standing up, in a more non-lethal way of course. :P

[jekke1980]

An example of ethnic cleansing is:

In 1991, in retribution for supporting Saddam Hussein against Kuwait during the 1990 Invasion of Kuwait, Kuwait carried out the expulsion of 400,000 Palestinians.

[Jasha91]

If they had been more successful they could have changed something.

[DuffmanIRL]

@Jasha91 Idiots with bombs and machine guns can only change things for the worse.

If violence is the means of change then the end result will be violence.

For a successful Revolution you need to educate yourself and those around you, organise democratically and build a strong popular democratic movement. It takes longer than loading an assault rifle but is the only real way to change the world.

[Jasha91]

You dont even know how they felt in that time - their parents was NAZIs and some still were. They couldnt understand how they forgot the war so rush.

Thats why they did that, they were angry of the system because of their parents etc.

YA!

[DuffmanIRL]

@Jasha91 How they felt doesn't justify their actions. They gave ammunition to the state and the police that could be used against real revolutionaries.

[jdrandassoc]

@antigen4

I wouldn't try to justify the actions of these mindless thugs. Their political justifications were ravenous and totally incoherent. Like many groups, while they stated they were fighting for innocents abroad being murdered and terrorized, in reality they simply became murders and terrorists in word and deed.

[antigen4]

@jdrandassoc They were operating on the assumption (which seems to be true) that passive resistance does not work. That's what 'terrorism' or 'freedom fighting' (depending on whose side you're looking at) is the only way you can get attention and try to solve problems. I think the film does an admirable job of explaining this. The chief of police explains it even - they and other gov'ts have to be more responsible in preventing the conditions giving rise to 'terrorism'.

[AnEnemy100]

One of my earliest memories is of my parents having a flaming row about a leather jacket which got left in a bank. Should probably have been called the Enselin-Baader Gang. Ulrike Meinhof was looked down on for being a bourgeois intellectual. Poor thing.

[antigen4]

I find Mr Turan's back of the envelope synopsis very offensive. He states that their objectives were "blowing up things, robbing banks and killing people". The killing of innocent civilians was never part of their programme - and this is outlined VERY clearly in the narrative. The GOAL of the group was to garner attention for the complacent attitudes toward imperialist genocide in vietnam and palestine.

[metatronius]

Antigen4, I find the RAF's kidnapping and murder of innocent civilians offensive.

[jekke1980]

@antigen4

The ''imperialist genocide'' never took place in Israel. Their actions were against the Jewish people and therefor anti-semitic. Again... there was German agression against Jews.

[antigen4]

@jekke1980 I have no idea who or what you're talking about Jekke - I am talking about the US funded Israeli program of ethnic cleansing against Palestine. And teh US funded genocide against the north vietnamese. That's what they were fighting. I'm sure if you watch the film this will become clear.

[jekke1980]

@antigen4 @antigen4

This movie is in my collection already. But let me tell you this:

there never was an ethnic cleansing of what you call "Palestine''.

Israel did not deported or commited genocide against Arabs.

Yours sincerely, jekke1980

[antigen4]

@jekke1980 since you question the very notion of 'palestine' as a state... why don't you be a good fellow and tell us what happened to it...? Find it on a map for me...

[jekke1980]

@antigen4

How can I find it for you if it was never there? Israel used to be called the British Mandate of Palestine. There was never an independent state called Palestine.

That's a myht.

[jekke1980]

@antigen4

You can't use the term ethnic cleansing, if it doesn't match the definition of ethnic cleansing.

For sure there were refugees, but this is not the same. Israel did NOT commited genocide of deportation.

[antigen4]

@jekke1980 Well I'm not sure of any situation where one CAN use the term ethnic cleansing - if not in the case of 'israel and palestine' - an attempt to completely wipe out an entire culture as defined by their national and ethnic identity. Give me a better example then. I really can't think of any. Perhaps with the Wigurs in Chna? Except that Israel's efforts have been far more serious, more successful and systematic. Perhaps the best case since WWII...

[jekke1980]

@antigen4

It's so untrue what you say.

Israel NEVER commited any systematic ethnic cleansing or genocide.

There was war, incidents, mistakes. But ethnic cleansing? NO WAY!

If you look at the official definition of ethnic cleansing you will see that you are wrong.

Besides that ''Palestinian'' or Arab, Islamic culture is not whipped out. Arabic is the official second language in Israel and there is freedom of religion. Mixed mariages are also allowed.

[MrRonStark]

The RAF was so far from the apathic german working class ( that was "fully integated"), that they definitely had no chance to overcome, such like Brigate Rosse in Italy. But there were many strokes and protests every day in the 70's in that country. So probably they thought to ride the wave...unsuccessfully!

[BOLSHEVIXTREME]

RED ARMY FACTION WAS AWESOME!

[velcoryn]

I wish commentators would have an understanding of history and politics - most here have neither!

[oempelpoempel]

i guess the most important fact is that they changed people's mind and especially the way the goverment, the justice and the police used to act...and not that they killed people or tried to start a revolution

[CRUDSLUDGE]

Pure what cromagnon?

[CaptainBluebear08]

Don't read the book, don't watch the movie. You will never be able to make up for the time you lost with it.

[antigen4]

what utter drivel - in content. Why do you call this a review but not actually SAY anything??? Or are you just looking for 'popularity points'?? Please - Los Angeles Times - don't waste bandwidth or our time posting such dreck.

[akhille]

RAF were Communists; every defector from the Soviet or Bloc services has said USSR supported RAF and similar groups. It was just discovered (Google it) that the West German police officer responsible for the German Kent State, and which every Communist terrorist group used as its ultimate justification, was not a "fascist" at all - he was a member of the Communist Party and an actual agent of the Stasi. What you'll see in this movie is the depiction of a Soviet military intelligence operation.

[Adnoydal]

So, what about Fischer and the Green movement? That was the next fad for German Thinkers to blindly follow, but they too fell short of their promise to create the ultimate socialist uopia?

[CRUDSLUDGE]

if the nazis had won, the Smallworld ide at disneyland would be even more boring!

[TheWilliamcale]

this movie moved me

Gudrun Ensslin

was so hot in the film

i would have robbed a bank for her

sexier than Mícheál Ó Coileáin

[TheWilliamcale]

sometimes people do the wrong thing

for the right reasons

but at least this shit we live in made them angry

most people are such sheep

and live with injustice and do nothing

[THEcontinanza]

well done bro 5*s

[Hattakiri]

@TheWilliamcale ...and who did the right thing for the right reason? Without anger? Like a sheep? And was successful by doin' so??

Mahatma Gandhi!!!

Think about that, all of you who excuse the RAF's actions... ;-)

[DrCruel]

@TheWilliamcale There are also people who do self-centered and despicable things for idiotic reasons. Such as, say, stealing from and killing defenseless people in the name of a vicious Left fascist hybrid of Marx-based idiocy.

The shit that Marxists say and do makes me angry, and the Left fascism that these people stood for, stole for and killed for was particularly infuriating. The rampant injustice and murderous criminality of killers like these deserve neither respect, mercy nor quarter.

[partya11night20]

@TheWilliamcale these guys actually followed though with their rhetoric instead of releasing an album and becoming millionaires (I'M TALKING TO YOU GREEN DAY)

[joaquinveyron]

@TheWilliamcale RAF should be remembered for what they were: stupid, dumb, cowardous criminals or - if you think of them positively - people who thought they were looking for something good, but in reality were shizophrenic and mentally mis-guided pschopaths.

[Steveco]

I rented the DVD and watched it 3 times. I didn't really know what was going on back then. In that respect this was an education.

I still feel the film didn't tell the whole story though. But you can't squeeze 10 years into 2 hours without losing something.

As for the politics. I discovered that Meinhof was a card carrying member of the Communist party in the GDR.

So did the RAF prevent a resurgence of National Socialism by killing fascists?

[anorak2]

PS The terrorists used the "fascism is immiment" paranoia as justification for their attacks and assassinations. Besides they did not particularly target real or perceived fascists. For example they arranged to have an aircraft full of West German tourists kidnapped.

[anorak2]

@Steveco "prevent a resurgence of National Socialism by killing fascists?" Of course not. The German student rebels of the 1960s thought fascism was imminent, but that was nothing but paranoia. West Germany then was a well oiled democracy with lots of freedom (more than today), a critical press, economic boom and absolutely no unemployment. Rebelling agains it was completely insane. The fact that W German society was prepared to tolerate that very rebellion shows how wrong they were.

[Steveco]

I've just started reading Stefan Aust's book on which the film was based and I'm starting to get a fuller picture of what really happenned.

Baader was pretty much a loose cannon and Meinhof had little influence on the group. It was only her fame as a writer which gave her prominance.

[kianttila]

Have you read Jillian Becker's book about the gang. It tells more details that Aust's book didn't tell.

[ogmaddin]

I have to say that I disagree. It's true that fascism was not imminent, but most of the old nazis had gotten away with what they had done during the nazi-times, which the RAF saw as a sign for the revival of national socialism (and yes, they were wrong). The press was free, but also disparged the protesting students just because they criticized the system and the lack of coming to terms with the past. The economic boom had already been over in 1968, so there were reasons to criticize the system

[antigen4]

I think that's a valid - and good - point. If they were rebelling against actions of the german government. But I would argue this was more a case of thinking globally and acting locally. The point was to make waves and generate support for the situations in Palestine and Vietnam and to shake down the capitalist system that creates these situations and silences voices of dissent, etc etc...

[CRUDSLUDGE]

i think that this film is very relevant i keep reiterating that an honorable way out of the war that is going on NOW is for Palestine to become a state, a two state solution ASAP and all these remnants from back in the days the 70s or WW2 are long gone except for the shadow. Germans are way cool and i'm glad American solidarity with them is there. 100%

[haag69]

they were not revolutionaries, they were terrorists, killers and robber banks, no more. They have not a political party, they were just a gang like the Cosa Nostra gangs but without honor. Ask Brigitte Mohnhaupt today if that life was good and have any value.

[ralva]

they were my heroes

[69Techno69pt]

Wanna know why I know you are an ignorant capitalist?

1. It's R.A.F not baader-meinhof gang, that's what the capitalist media called them, to pervert the name of the thousands member organization R.A.F

2. They didn't want to make the revolution by robbing banks, that was a way of funding themselves with capitalist money.

3. They practiced urban guerilla not random bombing or homicides.

[THEcontinanza]

yea bro you know it

START THE FUCKIN ARMED RESISTANCE!!

[Adnoydal]

excuses, excuses. germans in general simply hate anyone and everyone who doesnt conform to their precise ideals of perfection and more a few of them will always embrace violence to beat some of their values into the infidel.

hitler, RAF, different excuse, same exact identical german zeal

[Stromschlag]

Hitler and Raf - in the end they just were bitter and frustrated attention whores like you.

Adnoydal = A person that combines hubris, narcissism and scorn for other people and cultures. The perfect Herrenmensch.

[Adnoydal]

I must be German then. And you just confirmed the German stereotype to the letter.

Sitting poolside at an Ibiza hotel, Hans sneers in a snide scornful bitter tone "Pah. Youre just jealous you're not German, you losers Try to be a little more like us and think harder Don't force us to send you up a chimney, hm?

"Waiter. Dammit! This drink tastes horrible Get me German beer instead! Clean my room better!"