Phil Zuckerman - Society without God

[oldgordo61]

Interesting...if scandinavian societies are among the happiest in the world...without the need to have god in thier lives, very low crime rate, one of the highest standards of living. Free education, free dental and medical care ..cradle to grave society without the high cost of taxation. Sounds wonderful doesn't it?

So if Scandinavia are about close to an utopian society as you can get.,how come these countries don't recieve all that many immigrants?

You'd think they'd arrive in hordes.

[OhMyGodEinhornIsAMan]

@oldgordo61 I'm from DK and all I can tell you is, that we have by far the strictest immigration laws in Europe.

[oldgordo61]

@OhMyGodEinhornIsAMan That's is exactly my point...Scandinavian countries have one of the strictest immigrations laws around.But I would wager if America or even in Canada were to enforce the same kind type of immigration laws they would recieve far greater damnation from the world.

[Redbloodedsky]

@oldgordo61 I see both cases quite differently. Canada has been accepting and promoting immigration, while the United States are fighting not only to stop immigration but to deport any illegal (or even legal, real cases have been in recent news about latinos) immigrants. Now, immigration to Scandinavian countries is not easy. First, because of the language, second, location, third, high cost of life, fourth, employment for foreigners is restrictive, etc.

[Redbloodedsky]

@oldgordo61 You're wrong about your facts: they have incredibly high taxation rates (that's where their social benefits come from). They're not close to an utopian society, look at the recent bombing in Norway and the guy that went on killing rampage because he thought he was a crusader. And they do receive immigrants, but mostly between them. A lot of people from Iceland have been moving to Norway, because of their recent banking crisis. Read some more.

[oldgordo61]

@Redbloodedsky That was my point.

[Skogen14]

George W bush was a good president, you stupid stupid blindfolded people. He did loads of good things in Africa, where is that? why havn't we heard anything about that. Sadam would have become exactly as Hitler, they just stood there and watched it happen. Bush was a the freeking president of the United States and here comes some youtube dude or two or three and tries to debate him. Rediciolus.

[trippinlikegod]

@Skogen14 I think you watch entirely too much American television.

[ToneKingGuitarMan]

Uh... name one society that isn't godless? You can't. So, unfortunaltely Phil Zuckerman's thesis is partially correct in one sense but it's a straw-man argument. As a side note...  what does Phil Zuckerman base his personal "morals" on? In comparison to what? Where do his "morals" come from?

[acr08807]

Godless people aren't happy. They just think they're happy. And what does he mean when he says society hasn't broken down in Scandanavia? Their women don't even obey their men, as the Bible commands! What kind of life is that?

[Mrmoc7]

"Softest penalties for violent crime?"

"No death penalty?"

I'm an Atheist, but i suspect that this guy is full of shit.

[MrBlush11]

@Mrmoc7

Its actually true, in Denmark we dont have the death  penalty, and we do have soft crimes. However I believe we should get harder punishments. its too soft here

[elon92]

@Mrmoc7 Hey, I live in Sweden, guess what sort of crime has the hardest penalty? :P It's economy related crimes... You could murder people, rape infants, eat people alive but you will still get a softer penalty then someone who has made a "equally" big economic crime. The reason for this is simple, when you kill someone only a few people is affected. If you steel 100 000 000 dollars from a bank a lot more people are affected. And as he said, we don't run around and kill each other.

[Mrmoc7]

@elon92

Actually, I feel that's more reasonable. Thanks for sharing.

[elon92]

@Mrmoc7 No problem :) Btw, a "lifetimes" sentence here is like 20 years I think... not entirely sure about that number, but it's pretty low for being called a lifetime :P And as the video said, it's better to have a jail that's like a rehab so that when you get out of jail you are educated and can get a job, and if you get out when you're like 80 years old you won't be getting a job :P

[TheSaints777]

Excuse me Mr.Zuckerman if a nation was not in war would live a more comfortable life then a nation that is. Nations that want to live under God is in war with a spiritual evil kingdom trying to destroy it and thats why the countries you've mentioned who dont believe in God, dont face these problems because they are no threat to the devil so he does not waste his time with them. the problem my friend is spiritual but you being un-spiritual wont understand this.

[tkdlove02]

there is a lot of reference to Russia and China, even Laos as "Atheist Heavens". This is far from true. One of the previous posters mentioned that branded a society atheist doesn't make them so same with christianity. The USSR, PRC, and North Korea were led by dictatorships where the removal of god is not based around atheistic ideas but around control. the leaders replaced a deity with themselves to show that they had complete power. it is the oldest form of control in the book

[Baal1985]

"the leaders replaced a deity with themselves to show that they had complete power"

The best respond I have seen why Atheism is not equal to Communism, Stalin and China :)

[JackJ1957]

Christianity: "Love your enemies and do good to those who hate you." You are accountable to Jesus after you die.

Atheism: Do what you will - you are accountable in this life only if you are caught by people. When you die, you are worm fodder.

[MidgardEagle]

Which is why Norway has very little crime and is yet one of the three countries in the world with unarmed policemen. Okay.

[MidgardEagle]

Just because a country is branded an atheist country by a totalitarian government doesn't mean its populace will magically change denomination. Albania, like most ex-USSR countries, is strongly religious, whereas the Scandinavian countries are strongly secular - and also the most prosperous and peaceful nations of today.

You can talk about how atheists are all evil because we don't have a dictator in the sky watching our every move, but... you'd be wrong.

[JackJ1957]

There is a human dictator coming soon that the world will love... for a little while. Then all hell will break loose.

[4me2cclearly]

Christianity: Do what ever you like, and then tell your imaginary friend youre sorry, and all is good. All your wrong doings have been magically lifted. Wow!! What a deal.

Atheism: Do what ever you like; knowing that what you do affects others and using reason and rational logic to determine your actions. That must be too hard for some. It is much easier just to say OOOOOO Lord forgive me. What a load of crap.

[nef2442]

How did the Scandinavian countries become prosperous? Every town and village in Scandinavian countries have a church as their epicenter. A prosperous society in Scandinavia is an end the means was a Christian theist paradigm. Its funny that he picked countries that are rooted in Christianity, why didn't he pick secular paradises like China, Russia, Cambodia, etc? He cherry picked Christian nations that abandoned belief for material prosperity.

[Boondocken]

Yes but there is a difference between having a church and using it. (I am Danish) We have 5 churches in my area but only two of them have a priest at Sundays, and only 3-5 people come i each (counting the preach and the "singer".. We have a Christian history yeas... But that's just tradition not religion. Yes he could have picked Russia or China but the American public (who this book is aimed towards) cannot identify themselves whit those countries. We (America -Denmark) are much more alike.

[nef2442]

Denmark is not an atheist country it is a Christian nation that has backslidden. The only reason this book did not use real "secular paradises" such as, China, Russia, and Cambodia is because this book is a complete lie. The CIA fact book states Denmark's religious make-up as; "Evangelical Lutheran 95%, other Christian (includes Protestant and Roman Catholic) 3%, Muslim 2%"

How do you get a "secular paradise" in a country that has more evangelicals then the U.S.? This book is a complete lie

[Pontusky]

Ok this is about sweden, just like many other swedes (60-80%)i am agnostic/atheist . I celebrate christmas or JUL "thats what us swedes have been calling the holiday a long time before the country became christian". Most of us are cultural christians but very few of us believe in a god. People are still members of the church because of tradition.

[nef2442]

The Jultomten is believed to be a little gnome who lives under the floorboards of the house and rides a goat, called Julbocker. The goat is a reference to the Scandinavian god, Thor, whose chariot was pulled by two goats. The Jultomten will hand out gifts from a sack to the children.

Jul is a Pagan tradition, how is that secular? The only difference is that you are exchanging the living God Jesus Christ with a counterfeit mythological deity.

Jul only proves my point further.

[Pontusky]

You are right people think of the Jultomte as a mythological deity. But are people not atheists if they think of God Jesus Christ as a mythological deity?

[nef2442]

Think about what you just said...."people think of the Jul as a mythological deity" An entire country does not celebrate a holiday ceremoniously that revolves around some form of deity and then try to convince themselves that they are atheist. That is complete intellectual dishonesty.

If you want to choose a "secular paradise" choose a real one. Such as, Vietnam, Communist Russia, Red China etc. A place where no Jul's and no Christ's exist whatsoever!

[Pontusky]

So if Santa or Jultomten or the easterbunny are included as characters in my family traditions, i cant be an Atheist?

Atheism is the position that deities do not exist, or the it is the absence of belief in the existence of deities.

I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

[nef2442]

Oh yeah sure, in your opinion the facts do not support your argument however. If i asked a Lutheran evangelical minister in Sweden he would beg to differ. The way we make conclusions is by analyzing the facts and compiling the evidence. The evidence is that there is a church in every town, and most of the population claims Christianity to be their religion. The FACTS overwhelmingly prove that Sweden is a Christian nation, a secular mood does not count as data!

[Pontusky]

ofcourse a Lutheran evangelical minister is thinking that, he is deluted. He actually believes in an angry old bearded deity that knows what he thinks, and can punish him for masturbation.

[nef2442]

The "first true king of Sweden," Birger Jarl; believed in a "old bearded deity." And that is when your country (Sweden) began to become prosperous. After the decline of Viking rule and the arrival of Christianity. (Rise of the Swedish state). The first Christian King Birger Jarl (1248) allied himself with the Papacy and that launched him to a powerful position as an international political figure and into national hero. Christianity is Sweden's heritage it did not begin as a "secular paradise"

[Pontusky]

The years you describe was called The Dark Ages.

So when Sweden was one of the most poorest nations on this planet 150 years ago. And when people were starving everywhere. And a quarter of the population left. it was a very prosperus country?

[nef2442]

Birger Jarl was the first Christian king of Sweden, it was what catapulted the nation into prosperity. The Renaissance of the 12th century was a period of many changes during the High Middle Ages, Christianity introduced all of those wonderful values that are embedded in our human rights that did not exist in Pagan Europe. Before Christianity Swedes lived as barbarians, so did the Celts and the Germanic tribes. They went from burning virgins to burning incense...

[MidgardEagle]

Read your own Bible someday, please.

[4me2cclearly]

The Bible allows slavery, including selling your own daughter as a sex slave (Exodus 21:1-11), child abuse (Judges 11:29-40 and Isaiah 13:16), and bashing babies against rocks (Hosea 13:16 & Psalms 137:9). The list goes on and on. The Old Testament is no longer in effect some might say. Perhaps they should read where Jesus makes it clear: "It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

[JackJ1957]

The Bible simply acknowledges slavery as an invention of fallen man (it was primarily imposed for those who accumulated massive debt) and encourages people to abandon it.  Child abuse, bashing babies on rocks, etc. were never commanded or encouraged by God. People who don't distinguish that the Bible RECORDING something is different from the Bible COMMANDING something just goes to underscore their ignorance of what it says. A text without context is pretext.

[nef2442]

Every Christian in the world believes in an "old bearded deity that can punish...for masturbation." What is you point, are you calling the majority of the entire globe inferior to secularists because of their beliefs?

[Pontusky]

The majority of the world dont have an education that includes evolution etc. Religion is the humanitys first attempt of philosofy and science. A lot of people become atheists when they find and out about the teachings of darwin, hawkins, dawkins and others.

And by the way, you cant be open with your Atheism in alot of countries, if you are you could be a social outcast or even executed.

[Baal1985]

I think it is important to point out Christian (Name) from the book that tells an anecdote (my book p. 69-70) where it took courage and a some bottles of wine for his friends to tell Christian he believed in God. God has become a taboo in Scandinavia. I'll bet if a PM from DK or SW came public and said he asked God for advise he would be fired. It's kinda like opposite land to USA in this situation. If DK and Sw are irreligiously I'll support nef bc of Bellah and the rise of nationalism

[Pontusky]

I doubt The prime MInister would be fired, but people would be pissed of because a lot of people dont belive religion should be mixed up with politics.

And it dont tkaes courage for people in the us to come out as atheists?

"If DK and Sw are irreligiously I'll support nef bc of Bellah and the rise of nationalism"

Sorry, but i dont understand your abbreviations. "nef" "bc" "Bellah?"

[Baal1985]

nef = nef2442, bc = because and Robert Bellah is an American religious researcher who has studied civil religion in USA.

Since the definition of religion is so vague and ambiguous nationalism can be counted as religion too some will say.

PM fired...I meant opinion polls wouldnt benefit neither the PM nor his party so his party would have to somehow solve this "problem" that would be ask him to resign. Not even Ministry of Chuch affairs talks about religion in DK. Wonderful:)

[Baal1985]

Have you read his book? Church in every epicenter, yes, but less than 3 % are going there, churches are symboles of tradition not specific religion.

China: Buddhism, local religions

Russia: Orthodoxy Church where the church has seen an enormous increase of members.

Cambodia: Buddhism.

"He cherry picked"

YES, he said that in his book on the first page! He cherry picked the countries that had a low rating on religiousity.

Bultmann and liberalism have succeeded.

[nef2442]

Humanist secularism is a mood that is in the air currently within Scandinavian countries, however, natives can not disavow the bedrock on which their nations were erected. And that is Christian Theism. Zuckerman is writing about a mood he is not talking about facts or statistics look at any website or book on the subject of Scandinavia's religious basis. It's overwhelmingly Christian. People that call Scandinavian nations secular are talking from a basis of opinion not facts.

[Baal1985]

I read the book and I know my country:)

Your post is onesided and colourless, You use words as "Christian Theism" can you define that term?

" It's overwhelmingly Christian"

When are you "Christian"?

(It is actually a tough question)

"he is not talking about facts or statistics look" That's a lie, he uses several statistics in his book among others the one from CIA check his notes in the back of his book! yourself

[nef2442]

So when are you a "secularist"? (It could potentially be just as tough of a question).

There are Churches in every town within your country. There is not, however, a secular atheist headquarters within every town is there?

When that happens then you have a "secular paradise," its' what happened in Communist Russia (all churches were demolished turned into Communist office space). As long as 97% of your country is Christian then you have an overwhelmingly Christian nation.

[Baal1985]

"secularist" it dependes on what level if we talk among the population or on government level. Government we have, as USA, a constitution that clearly repeats Kant that politics and religion are sparated spheres. 97% where do you get that number? 81.5 % of our population is member of the national church (only 66 % believes in God/god). Then the problem is what is God and are you Christian if you only believe in god? Again when are you "Christian"? It is you who is calling DK Christian not me!

[nef2442]

I'm calling Denmark overwhelmingly Christian. Saying that Denmark is secular is like saying the national language is not Danish anymore... because a large number of the population speak English. Christianity is their heritage, and before that paganism.

My numbers come from the CIA factbook, google it!

[Chrisra77]

I don´t get your point... Doesn´t people have to believe to be Christians?

[Pontusky]

Sweden started to become prosperous when it started to leave ancient religions behind.

[Boondocken]

Hehe yes we started to prosper at the time we were introduced to Christianity.... But.. That is just about the same time we were introduced to the architectural accomplishments, high class product wares, and efficient agriculture of the south. And the "political tensions" with the southern nations got more intense because of new boat designs for the enemy ships that made the viking vessel less efficient . :-)

[xAstronomy]

It took us long enough to notice Religion is complete Bullshit! i hope Manking aim very high.. in the near future..

[pzuckerm]

No worries -- Peter is a dear friend -- I don't mind being confused with him :)

[pzuckerm]

Thanks for the great video post, but head-shot is a picture of Peter Nardi (!), NOT Phil Zuckerman...

[KeepTheReason]

thanks for watching. damn Google, thats one of the images that came up on image search. I feel kind of stupid right now, lol.

[serialced]

Very nice vid, i hope you keep adding new ones like these :)

Subscribed!

[farvision]

Giving two inconsistent things to listen and watch at the same time is a very bad technique.

Please do not do it.