Dr. George Tiller (1941-2009): Murdered Abortion Provider Remembered Democracy Now 6/1/09 2 of 5

[PrisonerNumber9653]

@Wilatemodelnow that's truly insulting, you may not be familiar with the teachings of this guy named Jesus? Even IF Dr. Tiller was some ogre, God forgives sin, this idea of God torturing people in "hell" is manmade.

That said, Tiller was a brave physician who saved many lives and provided health care to women nobody else would help. His murder was a great tragedy.

[wilatemodel]

bet Dr Tiller would give ANYTHING for a drop of water right about now.

[gingerbreadcorpses]

It's really tragic that someone like Tiller can be murdered and his death can actually be celebrated in the name of the "unborn", while pieces of shit like Randall Terry can go on living in free society. Like most heroes, Tiller's fate was a tragic one.

[Bringerofdeath9753]

Always unpleasant to read the comments on vids like this. Tiller deserves to be remembered as a hero.

[alonelychild]

What about Dr. Bernard Nathanson, that after viewing ultrassom images, was convinced abortion is murder, and in no way defenseable? He only converted many year later

[YHWHisSovereign]

It's good this baby killer is dead. He wasn't murdered himself because he wasn't a person. Therefore, it is unlawful for Scott Roeder to be tried for murder. If anything, he should be tried for killing without a license and tag.

[212stryker1]

Apparently all "Christians" here want to ban the teachings of Jesus Christ. Remember that concept of forgiveness?

[KnightOwl2006]

Abortion is an abomination but violence is not the solution. Every pro lifer I know hates it when somebody does this.

[jmatassa]

elie Smiel Another FOOL!!!

[jmatassa]

Susan Robinson.. needs to get a new PROFESSION!.. SHe has no Idea what she is talking about.. and this is surprising after researching this dear colleague.. SHE IS NOT EVEN liscenced!! WOW!! thats all I have to say WOW!!

[SuperGothvampire]

IM SO FUCKINH GLAD DR GEORGE TELLER IS DEAD THATS WHAT DR GEORGE TELLER GETS BY KILLING BABIES IN ABORTIONS.

[Allan050372]

Dr. George Tiller will face our God Wrath on the Judgment day

[Allan050372]

good job for assassin of Dr. George Tiller

[TAKEHEED1]

PRAISE GOD THAT THERE ARE NO MORE ABORTIONS BEING DONE AT KELLOGG & BLECKEY. POOR GEORGE, HE KNOWS BETTER THAN ANY ONE WHAT HELL IS REALLY LIKE, WHERE THE WORM THAT EATS ON HIM WILL NEVER DIE & THE FIRES NEVER QUENCHED. SUSAN ROBINSON IS A WHORE FOR HIRE, AS IS ELLIE SMEAL.

[ste670ler]

Fuck Tiller he was a piece of shit , he reaped what he sowed, burn in hell Tiller!

[facebookisstupid]

Tiller was a hero... he wasn't a "baby killer" he was a brave Dr. and a humanitarian.

[SkiesVibrant]

@facebookisstupid

Anyone who crushes the skull of full term baby and then sucks its brains out, is not a humanitarian, he is the very definition of a MONSTER!

[jmatassa]

@facebookisstupid HUMANITARIAN???? DO YOU EVEN KNOW THE DEFINITION OF THE WORD? humanitarianism is an ethic of kindness, benevolence and sympathy extended universally and impartially to all human beings.. TO ALL HUMANS.. CLEARLY not the case with MR Tiller.. Thank God he is no longer killing humans !!!

[RezaLemmyng]

Many of these children aborted, could have survived on their own, but Dr. Tiller didn't allow them to live, even if they physically could have survived without the need of medical care, rather he killed them.

[philipsmog]

what is partial birth abortion or late term abortion? how far along does a pregnancy have to be for that label?

[liarslayer]

Second and third trimesters are late term abortions. A partial birth abortion is just that. They go in with forceps, turn the child breech, and pull out the feet first. When they get to the head, they pull it out partially, then jam in a scissor like instrument and insert a tube and suck out the brain. I've seen it and it's a horrific procedure. There is absolutely no reason for it, medically or otherwise.

[liarslayer]

I wonder if these people thought it was sad a pro-lifer was murdered.

[superdoobo]

Wow! What a load of B.S. That doc is real ugly!

[hectorbolshevik]

Exactly! You know in Nazi Germany abortion was a criminal offense which carried a death sentence for both the woman and the doctor brave enough to provide it. These religious shitheads are only "pro-life" until it's born, then they couldn't care less if the kid ends up in a garbage can or in an ally. "Pro-lifers" and commit murder. Religion never makes sense.

[prooc]

Considering he killed more people than Jack the Ripper, I don't think it's a far off comparison. What part of the fact that killed unborn babies up to nine months for casual reasons don't you understand.

[PierreLeone]

what about the women who pay the man to have their babies killed???

if tiller killed 1000 babies. thats 1000 women who payed him money to do it for them.

[Milano1848]

Susan Robinson slut!

[JMehrman]

Isn't it funny how this procedure on late term isn't necessary, and in fact that baby could live and survive? How it's widely illegal in the rest of the world except for countries that complain of over population? How it's even being contested now in the state of Kansas and the people allowing this murder to continue are a part of the Progressive Party. Who believe they are doing their duty by culling the population fot their 'age of reason".

[lathzz]

JMehrman;

You are simply UNINFORMED.

This procedure isnt being performed on healthy, normal, late term cases. Quite the opposite. These cases are of rape, incest, and when there is potential grave harm to the mother involved in carrying full term. Also, this procedure is used to abort ALREADY DEAD FETUSES.

Please educate yourself with something besides corporate media.

[JMehrman]

lathzz:

You simply choose to ignore the facts to fit your SICK and twisted reality. WAKE UP! Tiller murdered these babies when they could have survived for $6000. There's testimony and documentation that supports the fact that the vast majority were for casual reasons. I don't like having exchanges with people that ignore facts so please don't bother me again.

[lathzz]

JMehrman;

Dont bother you? Fuck you. $6000!?!

Ok, then, you stand outside the clinic CASH IN HAND and give 6000 to EVERY PATIENT THERE.

Do you think money grows on trees?

Im for the adoption option, esp, when she just wants an abortion for convenience but abortion logistics are PROIHIBITIVE to that option. Youre a FOOL if you think all these women have 6 Large laying around.

[lathzz]

(adoption logistics)

[ariaane]

Why don't YOU educate yourself?

Tiller performed late term abortions at the whim of the aborting mother. He also killed babies that had been delivered ALIVE- hence the term INFANTICIDE.

[lathzz]

Oh, and you also murder facts.

[ariaane]

It's clear that due to your inability to arm yourselfs with FACTS and not supposition prior to entering this debate with me has caused you to run out of anything sound to say.

You are yet to refute a single point which I've made, in particular the racist nature of abortion and that over 95% of abortions don't occur due to necessity.

An unborn child's body is not the woman's body, and this you know.

[ariaane]

As for your argument that if someone want's to have an abortion than they'll have one, the same can be said about rapists: If a rapist wants to rape a woman, he'll rape a woman, regardless of whether it is legal or not. Making rape illegal just causes more fighting.

Sounds pretty stupid, doesn't it? Well that is the gist of your pathetic argument.

PS- I am not white, or rich.

I am black and female. Get that right.

[lathzz]

ariaane;

It doesnt matter if your "facts" here are indeed true. Doesnt matter if planned parenthood is racist.

What matters is the RIGHT of a woman to choose. Thats the bottom line. Not you or anyone else has the right to tell a woman how to conduct reproduction. Its not right and you know it. If you believe abortion is murder and wrong then why do you people advocate the murder of people who are already born(Dr. Tiller)? Sounds counter-intuitive. But so is religion so........

[ariaane]

Lathzzz.

To take a inoncent life is NOT A RIGHT- and YOU KNOW IT.

Because the law has enshrined abortion as a right, it doesn't automatically make it so. At one point in history, the law said it was lawful for a caucasian to enslave me by the virtue of me being black. We now know better, don't we?

The law does not justly define rights. That we are born and endowed with natural rights from our creator gives us or rights.

PS- I've never supported the late abortion of Tiller. Get that right.

[lathzz]

Arianne

I never said anyhting about the law. I said its UP TO THE WOMAN. No law there.

Also, Tiller never "killed babies delivered alive". Thats bullshit and you know it. shame on you

[ariaane]

And by what and who gives a woman the right to have scissors driven through the skull of an inoncent baby? If not the Law, or God, who?

PS- It is not false or BS to say that Tiller engaged in infanticide AKA "Partial Birth Abortion".

Why are you so surprised to hear this, considering that Obama voted 3 TIMES against the Born Alive Infact Act, an act which offered protection to babies who survive abortion.

To leave a delivered babie to die, after surviving an abortion is INFANTICIDE!

[lathzz]

like I said arinae, you MURDER the facts.

Late term is not infanticide. Late terms were performed at Tillers clinic out of need, not convenience. It cant be called infanticide when the fetus is already dead, going to die b4 birth, or is a dnager to the mother. These are criteria for Late term procedure. Fox News told you what you "know" obviously.

Sure, he performed early terms out of convenience for women but thats another issue since its debatable when consciousness begins anyhow.

[liarslayer]

Killing a child is virtually never necessary to save the life of the mother. It may have been so to some degree in the past, but not anymore. And there is NEVER EVER a reason for partial birth abortion.

[lathzz]

Youre retarded liar.

Late terms are neccesary in some cases to not only protect the mother but also in cases where the "child" is already dead in the first place.

These procedures arent being done for simple convenience reasons as you silly fools seem to convey.  I am against any abortion procedure for simple "convenience".

Its about time you silly moralists grew up a little and looked at this issue( and others) in a REALISTIC light.

[liarslayer]

lathzz,

Tell me. When is it medically necessary for partial borth abortion? I would like to know. Cause this is exactly the problem. People like you have the dumb opinions that you have not even researched. So tell me when it's necessary please!

By the way, I see from your site that you support drugs. Maybe cut back a little, it seems to be rotting your brain.

[lathzz]

I see liar. So you are saying that abortion shouldnt be done even if theres danger to the mother? Thats a MEDICAL NECESSITY! What about if its know that the baby will be stillborn/is already dead? Wouldnt you say that would be MEDICALLY NECESARY?!?!?!

I TOLD YOU, I dont support abortions for "convenience". My stand on this is reasonable. Youve shown yourself to be irrational. Completely opposed no matter what.

I think you should smoke some herb. You are WAY to high strung.

[liarslayer]

fatheadzz, see that you cannot tell me when it's medically necessary for a partial birth abortion. If the baby is already dead, then it wouldn't be an abortion now would it duh? I am completely rational and you don't like it because I slay the liars such as yourself. I think you've smoked way too many herbs. Maybe if you laid off for a while, your brain might start working properly again.

[liarslayer]

Now besides an answer about partial birth abortion I'm still waiting on, I have another as well. Why do you not believe in abortion for convenience? Please answer those 2 simple questions.

[lathzz]

Your arent "waiting on" my stand on late term, you just arent listening liar.

I DO NOT support "convenience" procedures. Its that simple. If you abort a life out of pure convenience then thats WRONG.

However, I, as a MAN, will NOT tell ANY WOMAN what she should choose to do in any case when its HER body and situation and NOT MINE.

Women have played second fiddle to mens wishes for too long.

I am RATIONAL on this issue.

YOU, Liar, are not.

[RezaLemmyng]

@lathzz

Dr. Tiller aborted babies for convinience thou but your statements are conflicting. You said, "I do not support convenience procedures" but then immediately followed it with "I, as a man, will not tell any woman what she should choose..."

Many women chose an abortion for convenience, and yet it's their body according to your argument so they can do what they want.

[RezaLemmyng]

@RezaLemmyng

Going further, Dr. Tiller didn't perform them for "the women". He wasn't an advocate for women, he was an advocate for money. If he didn't get the $6000 USD that he charged, he wouldn't perform the abortion. He became a millionaire doing it!

He aborted them for stupid and unsustained reasons, in which several of his patients have even spoken out against him.

[RezaLemmyng]

@RezaLemmyng

If a woman is slightly depressed, his response was "get an abortion", but what he didn't take into account is that often times women are more depressed after the abortion [which is long lasting], and that after women have a baby, after the first year, their mental health goes in the other direction and their less depressed then before even getting pregnant [Johns Hopkins Mental Health Research].

[lathzz]

@ Reza

If you wnat to start right off by being an asshole thats fine but it wont get you anywhere.

First, there is no conflicting statement. I DO NOT SUPPORT CONVENIENCE PROCEDURES.

Thats MUCH different from the other statement on women and mens dominion over them.

Next, Ive never heard any reputable source cite the Propaganda you have about Tiller. Though even if its all true, its irrelevant to this covo as we are speaking of LATE TERM PROCEDURES.

[RezaLemmyng]

@lathzz

It is relevent, Dr. Paul Mchugh of Johns Hopkins University directly anaylized the data for which Tiller performed abortions and he concluded that the mental health evaluations weren't sufficient, that the women were given the abortion and sent on their way.

He also provided data that proved the mental health of the mother was less stable after their abortion, then before and if they'd not had the abortion would have gotten better.

[RezaLemmyng]

@lathzz

In regards to your "convenience" comment, it was a confliction. I wasn't trying to be "an asshole" as you'd assumed, rather I'd just pointed out that you made two statements that you hadn't reconciled and that many would consider contradictory to each other since you didn't prioritize the one before the other, etc.

[lathzz]

You are being an asshole by typing

@ lathzz

Dont know about you but I call that RUDE.

Also, YOU brought up the convenience issue even though the subject is late term. Also no ad-hominems here. Do you even know what that means?! Also, Ive been attacked by nothing but zealots here. You act like one. so......

There are no conflicting statements. Youre simply taking them out of context to make a weak attempt to attack me ......

like a religious zealot would.

Thanks for playing.

[RezaLemmyng]

Sorry but the @lathzz, wasn't me, that's what youtube put infront of my posts when I'd reply to your individual comments.

No, your comments mentioned that you were against convenience abortions. I'd challenged you on the specifics of that, no doubt, but I'd also provided specifics into the practices of Dr. Tiller, etc.

[lathzz]

They do perform "abortions" when the fetus is dead. This is INCLUDED in the LATE TERM PROCEDURES that these clinics provide. You are dense arent you slayer? And of course there ARE some circumstances where the mother is in danger should she deliver. Its PREGNANCY you twit! ITs not an entirely simple thing that goes well every time. Complications happen. I shouldnt have to explain this to you! You are "slaying" nobody but yourself here!

[RezaLemmyng]

@lathzz

Tiller aborted babies for casual reasons, such as "she will be depressed because she wont be able to go to a rock concert"

Nobody would deny a woman's right to have an abortion if...and only if...her life was in danger. That is rarely ever discussed and almost never debated.

[lathzz]

continued......

Its well known by anyone who has the brains to do some research that late term abortions are sometimes neccesary. Late term procedures arent a convenience/elective procedure though you silly religious zealots love to fool the sheep into thinking such mad things!

[RezaLemmyng]

@lathzz

I never denied that late term abortions were necessary if, and only if, the mother's life was in danger. Nobody is debating that and only religious idiots would deny a mother that right but that's not what we're debating.

We're debating the late term abortion issue for the many vast, other reasons for which the proceedure is primarily performed and in which George Tiller had performed them.

[RezaLemmyng]

@lathzz

Rather then resort to the ad hominems, lets stick on topic shall we?

[lathzz]

I also find it telling that you dont spell out your stand on this issue reza.

Mine, if you havent read my prior posts is one on non-interventionist policy.

I dont support "convenience" abortions personally BUT do not support ANY legislation that limits a WOMANS personal decisons on the matter. Mens decisons SHOULD NOT factor. Do you not agree?

WHAT is your specific position?

You CLAIM youre not a religious zealot and are not seeking to chastize me like an asshole.

Prove it.

[RezaLemmyng]

Whomever challenges you on your stand, or takes a more conservative approach then you, is labeled as a "religious zealot", thou many of them oppose it for non-religious reasons.

...and no I don't agree with your stance, because it doesn't give a baby, a living person, any rights under the law, as a human being.

[RezaLemmyng]

Many babies that are born pre-mature [at lets say 6-7 months] can live outside of their mothers, a 9 month year old can live without any assistance.

In the case of Dr. Tiller, if a 9 month year old baby was aborted, the baby would often be delivered alive, fully healthy and crying. Dr. Tiller would smother it to death.

He also participated in the proceedure of "candy apple babies" in which a baby's flesh was burnt by a salty solution that was injected.

[RezaLemmyng]

This is a baby like every other baby. What if a mother aborted/killed her 3 month year old baby because she was "depressed" or wanted to go to a rock concert? What if it was legal under the state laws?

Would you support it? As Dr. Mchugh pointed out, these minor psychological issues were used by Dr. Tiller in his choice to terminate late term babies that could live on their own without assistance, if were only given that opportunity.

[lathzz]

Furthermore reza,

Ive seen no reputable source report what you have about Tiller.

BUT, if all you say about him was true, do you condone his murder?

I doubt you do, but I must ask.

I believe abortion should remain legal on a case by case basis. There should be a watchdog/regulation agency that monitors providers in some way and there should be some form of adoption option program integrated with these clinics.

A ban is not the answer.

[RezaLemmyng]

Dr. Paul Mchugh and Johns Hopkins University isn't a valid source? Particularly when he'd analyized the documents that were provided to him by the courts and tiller himself.

...on the Tiller Murder, I'm Pro-Life, so I'm in line with that, in that all killing/murder is wrong. Going further, I think that Tiller should have not been killed, but should have been put behind bars.

[lathzz]

And of course, you have to think about all the factors that likely cuase these abortions to occur in the first place.

Profit is one of them. Take the profitablity out of the equation and I bet you'll see less abortions.

Education is another. Who are all these people seeking convenience abortions? Often poor, uneducated, and dis-advantaged people. For these people, an abortion is cheaper than having a kid. Not to mention that if they were educated they MIGHT have used protection.

[RezaLemmyng]

I think you bring an interesting point. If it's about the well-being of the women, which is what Tiller claimed, then that should be fore-front but it wasn't, even in Tiller's Clinic.

Tiller's psychological evaluation was a quick consultation before hand, and obsolete after the abortion. He didn't report the sexual abuse of underage girls to authoritys, as state laws required, amongst a long laundry list of violations.

[RezaLemmyng]

Even if the individuals having a child are uneducationed and poor, which wasn't the case with nearly all of tiller's patients, that is no excuse to take the life of another human being.

Tiller thou didn't perform abortions unless the mothers could raise the 6,000 USD. That's why alot of his patients were unwed mothers of wealthy families, etc.

[lathzz]

And heres one example illustrating why I will not trust our leaders to dictate the solution to this issue.

The Republicans are shouting bloody murder about the abortion clause in the new health care bill(a bad bill btw).

They call it "elective abortions". NOT TRUE.

The bill states that these abortions would be in the case of rape, incest, etc.

That is, not elective.

Dems play this stupid game too.

[RezaLemmyng]

Republicans are morons, there is not much room to debate that further. They were elected during the Bush years, partly on a pro-life basis, yet even after seizing control of the house and the senate, didn't even propose such a bill outlawing it.

Tiller's clinic was running under the Bush years, as the Republicans woulud have easily got a bill passed outlawing it if they wanted.

[lathzz]

And I know what youre going to say reza;

"what is your specific solution then"

My answer is that I do not have a specific solution to the problem, thats not my job.

However, one of my jobs, as an American, is to remain vigilant over our leadership. As such, I do not trust any bill they pass involving women and their reproductive capacity. In effect, people must rule themselves and take personal respons. for their actions to even begin to hash out this mess.

[RezaLemmyng]

Here is the problem with allowing it to be legal under the law. If you believe that a baby that can live outside of it's mother's womb at 9 months has no rights under the law, as a fully functioning human being, then why not extend it beyond birth?

Why not legalize aborting a 3 year old baby, so if it's "not working out" or the mother is "depressed", she can just "put him down" as the South Park episode once said.

We have to have laws that protect the citizens of this nation.

[RezaLemmyng]

I'm just saying...at what point does a human being, get the rights and protections under the law?

Ron Paul was an OBGYN for a very long time and rarely to never saw any situations in which an abortion was necessary [IE: The mothe's life was in danger].

Tiller aborted for stupid reasons thou, like "the mother will be depressed because she can't go to prom".

[lathzz]

And I simply must add;

I just checked out Dr. Paul Mchugh, and I must say that Im not impressed.

Ive read how he bashes and defames transexuals. Why? Is he a religious zealot? Sounds like something a zealot would do.

I wouldnt put stock in anyone who is so close minded to hate a group of people based on their sexual preference.

[RezaLemmyng]

Dr. Paul Mchugh was the head of john's hopkins university. You can find his full analysis online and even an video interview with him on youtube.

He isn't a zealot, and he mentions that even according to tiller's own records, fetus were aborted in the late term for excuses like, "she wont be able to go to prom" and he never reported cases of sexual abuse to authorities.

[RezaLemmyng]

and no, he's not a religious zealot. I don't know his stance on transexuals but as with his stance on numerous issues, it's based upon his research as a psychiatrist, at Johns Hopkins.

[lathzz]

continued........

The end goal in this issue and MANY other issues we face as Americans MUST be dealt with by a return to personal responsibiltiy and common sense to this Nation. We DO NOT need the govt to tell us how to live our lives in any case. It is a stark danger to allow faceless and souless beaureacrats to dictate policy.

Abortion for convenience is wrong and ought to stop, but I as a man should have no say. Similarly, the govt. should have no say either.

[RezaLemmyng]

...so we shouldn't prosecute murderers that don't share our save value of life? We should prosecute EVERYONE that takes the life of another human being, weather by Jeffery Dalmer or George Tiller.

[lathzz]

And as I said before, it seems you and I are fairly close on our estimation of this problem even though we dont see quite eye to eye. Im with you on the "life" aspect. Im also against the death penalty. 

But I still havent seen the stats you speak of for Tiller(aside from Mchugh). Im very reluctant to put much stock in a guy like McHugh who is obviously close minded on social issues. He stinks of neo-con/social conservative.

[RezaLemmyng]

If you chose to rule out Mchugh's stances on psychiatric issues, that's your choice, nobody is telling you to take his date for your own.

It's a bit wrong thou to rule out Mchugh, even if you disagree with his psychological conclusion, because the evidence [which was provided by tiller to the court that provided it to Mchugh], speaks for itself.

The psychological analysis done by tiller himself said that it was for reasons such as a girl not being able to go to her prom.

[RezaLemmyng]

@RezaLemmyng

The records themselves were not released to the public, due to patients privacy rights but were given to the courts.

Tiller's former patients, not all but some, have come forward with these same facts. If you chose not to validate the head of one of the most prestegious medical universities in the country, that's your choice but I did provide the burden of proof, you just chose to attack it's messenger [Mchugh] with no proof to refute his study.

[lathzz]

Again reza, you make very good points here. Kudos to you for sticking to a reasonable fromat of debate.

Im pleased that you dont feel drug addicts should be in jail and yes, legalizing abortion and drugs are different for the most part. I tend to disagree that drug use is a "crime" however. On Mchugh;

you said the records were not released so I am sto take his word for it? He stinks of neo-con so Im reluctant to put any trust in him.

[lathzz]

And maybe Tiler was a "bad guy". I dont know. The records are essentially secret.

I simply do not think this problem gets solved at all by attackeing this dead man who was murdered by zealots. Some who still tout that murder. And they call themselves "christians"?

And an out right ban wouldnt work either.  No public support for it and it would usher in a black markt reminiscent of the rusty coat hanger days.

[RezaLemmyng]

The records aren't secrete, as Dr. Mchugh and the prosecutors have spoken on them. I know you don't trust Mchugh because of fundemental disagreements with him but he was chosen as a fair and balanced individual by the courts.

In regards to public support, it depends on the state. I think there is more support for a ban on it then you may suspect or know.

[lathzz]

In short my friend, I do not have an easy answer to this problem. I believe the roots of the problem are far more complex than the issue itself. Not to mention that our political leaders have zero interest in the topic other than using it as a wedge issue.

Im am one who believes that we, as citizens, no longer rule our country. Until we somehow take it back, this, and other problems we face will not be solved.

Great convo! Ive enjoyed myself.

[RezaLemmyng]

You're right on that, this country doesn't belong to the citizens, it belongs to the corporations and dictators.

[lathzz]

And consider this reza;

the Abortion issue is much like some other issues we face.

Drugs for example;

People will NEVER stop seeking drugs. Yet, we as a society, force this demanded product into the underground in the hands of gangs and cartels=criminals. Not a good idea.

Abortion is similair. It shouldnt be prohibited but REGULATED more effectively to stop any practices simiair to those you accuse Tiller of.

There must be a middle ground.

There is no easy solution.

[RezaLemmyng]

@lathzz

Drugs are different, because their a crime against yourself, not a crime against another human being.

I agree that making many drugs illegal just forces addicts to deal with criminals, just as making alcohol illegal in the early 1900's brought criminals like Al Capone to power but this is a situation of a crime against another living being, not against ones' self.

[lathzz]

I think you make some great points here reza, and as I stated before, I think you and I agree for the most part on this issue. I too am for life. Its a bit more complicated than that I would say since two sentient lives/rights are involved in the equation.

For instance;

When does "life" begin? At conception? Before? How do you define/classify that?

Some argue that condom use or birth control pills are "anti-life" as they kill live, human reproductive components.

[RezaLemmyng]

When does life begin, that's a good question and one that often isn't asked.

A similar question would be - when is a person considered "dead"? Usually after the heart has stopped and CPR is pointless. The heart beat for a baby begins within weeks of it's conception [science tells us that], so I'm for giving it rights at that point.

[RezaLemmyng]

Now if people don't agree with that, that's fine but I think there is no doubt that a baby that can live on it's own, such as an eight or nine month year old fetus, outside of the womb, is a human being by all medical and otherwise standards.

Therefore why shouldn't it be given rights under the law to be protected as other babies that are only different because they are outside of a womb, and this baby is inside of a womb, seperated in age by just a few weeks [referring to late term]?

[lathzz]

reza;

I didnt ask you if you agreed with my stance, aked what your specific stance is.

I'll assume your stance is somewhat similair to mine in that you dont support convenience procedures but do support necc. procedures.

Question is, who deems what is "neccesary". I would not leave it up to our govt to tell women what to do. Plain and simple. Its quite clear to me that govt has no business in our business, ya dig? They NEVER get it right, and often dont side with the people.

[RezaLemmyng]

@lathzz

I'm pro-life in every circumstance. I'm against the death penalty for criminals, I'm against abortion [unless the baby is killed in an attempt to save both the baby and the mothers life], etc.

Tiller should be in prison, hell is to follow if he doesn't change his lifestyle but at the same time, I don't mourn because of his death just like I don't mourn the death of Jeffery Dalmer.

[lathzz]

Also, I disagree w/ your assemsent of drug use. How is that a "crime" against oneself? Are you claiming that a "crime" against oneself should indeed be a jailable offense? How can you even committ a "crime" against yourself?

But you do make a good point that abortion(for convenience) is a crime against another.

I do contend however that the drug prohib and potential abortion prohib would be directly comparable as both create a black mrkt run by criminals. Not an optimal choice.

[RezaLemmyng]

Drug use is just that, it's a crime against yourself. If you do drugs, just as if you use cigarettes, you're the one that it's hurting. I'm not for jailing someone for a crime against themselves, no.

A crime against yourself [drugs] and a crime against another [a baby], may create a black market run for criminals, but legalizing drugs and legalizing the killing of another are completely different issues.

We should preserve life at all costs and prosecute those that suggest otherwise.

[lathzz]

Its like I told you liarslayer;

I dont support abortion for "convenience" reasons. Though you have apparently ASSUMED like an asshole that I do.

There are FAR more pressing issues than late term abortion to worry about right now.

This is a DISTACTION issue tailor made to hold the limited attention spans of dumb american sheep.

Are you a dumb american sheep?

[liarslayer]

Your right lathz, I do think you like abortion for any reason and yes you are an asshole. No question about that. And calling the life of an innocent child being snuffed out a distraction, you are the biggest moron ever.

[lathzz]

and ariane,

You may have never directly supported his murder but your zealot group has and does. He was doing his job and you call him a murderer. The worst of you people actually DID advocate his murder. Didnt hear you or anyone else on your side objecting to that talk. YOu people are murderers. You murder people like Tiller and you murder personal freedom.

[ariaane]

Why, or why, are you so ignorant?

The nuremberg defense "I was only following orders" was used by the Nazi's who slaughtered Jews.

They claimed they were following orders so their murder of inoncent jews ought to be exused. It wasn't.

Tiller was a MURDERER regardless of whether it was his assigned job or ot, just as the Nazi's were murderers. Noone has the freedom to kill.

PS- Although Tiller's end was unjust, I don't pity him. He killed thouands of INONCENT children so got his karma.

[lathzz]

and here you go again with the Fox News type propaganda. Comparing Tiller to a Nazi. You folks are patently insane.

Why are you so ignorant?

[liarslayer]

Comparing Tiller to Hitler is so offensive to your ideology is it? You poor baby. Now lets see. Hitler killed 6 million Jews as well as millions of Christians. Now although tiller didn't kill them all himself, he promoted and encouraged the continued killing of innocent life which have reached approx. 50 million. Wow, you're right, hitler killed far less people than the money making abortion industry. You're right, not much comparison. Hitler was saint in comparison.

[lathzz]

And you know who we should be comparing Hitler to? HITLER!

You people are CRAZY. You Tiller "encouraged" 50 million murders?

Patently false.

Besides, there are FAR worse things killing FAR people.

Think about the War on(some) drugs, and how many lives it claims.

Think about Big oil, Big Pharma, Tobacco and alcohol lobbys. All those things count for tens of millions of deaths EVERY YEAR and they are supported by FAR more evil people than Tiller could have ever hoped to be

[liarslayer]

You're comparing tobacco use that adults do freely and no the dangers to an innocent life who doesn't have anyone protecting them, then you are a bigger moron than I even thought. You belong to the devil.

[ariaane]

There does seem to be a disdain towards babies from pro abortionists.

Take a look at Obama refering to an unplanned child as a "punishment", and not supporting the Born Alive Infact Act 3 times (which protectors BORN babies who were meant to be aborted from surviving).

The Founder of Planned Parentood- Margaret Sanger was an OUT AND PROUD RACIST who was very vocal about her plans to use abortion to wipe out blacks and minorities, hence the fact that 80% of abortion clinics are in black areas.

[ariaane]

Yet Black Americans only comprise 12% of the US population, yet over 3/4 of abortion clinics are in black areas, despite blacks being more pro life than whites.

Only an idiot or closeted white racist (which you seem to be) cannot see the malicious intent behind this all.

Do a google search for Klanned Parenthood- a black owned website showing the link between abortion and racism.

The number one killer of US blacks is not gun crime or drugs, but ABORTION.

OPEN YOUR EYES and start THINKING.

[ariaane]

And no- I AM NOT twisting the DICTIONARY definition of pro abortion and pro choice. LOOK IT UP YOURSELF.

They both equally mean something along the lines of being in FAVOUR/ FOR the procurement of legalised abortion.

To be anti abortion is to be OPPOSED to abortion, so clearly the opposite of being opposed to abortion is being in SUPPORT of abortion, hence the prefix PRO.

This is basic english 101.

[ariaane]

Firstly, you uneducated imbecile, by DICTIONARY DEFINITION, pro choice and pro abortion are both defined as "favouring legalised abortion".

To be pro choice on abortion = to be FOR (not against) legalised abortion, hence the PREFIX "PRO".

To be pro choice on slavery = to be in favour of/ FOR legalised slavery. Therefore to be prochoice on slavery = being PRO SLAVERY.

Pro choie is just a deceptive euphenism for being IN SUPPORT OF / FOR whatever the subject matter is.

[ariaane]

Secondly, you poorly read propaganda machine, only 1% of abortions occur due to rape, therefore the legalised abortion for rape argument falls flat.

Planned Parenthood are very honest with their knowledge that the great majority of abortions (95% or so) occur due to women wishing to preserve a comfortable lifestyle and NOT due to neccesity or proclaimed poverty, so play another tune, ignoramous.

Addendum:

Pro choice on abortion = PRO ABORTION = ending the life of inoncent and unborn children

[ariaane]

Oh f*ck off you white feminazi.

I am a BLACK WOMAN- you ignoramous.

It could have taken you less posts to reveal yourself as the knuckle dragging uneducated primate that you appear to be.

[AriesLudzik]

Tiller : Dead motherfucker !

Buh-bye, loser.

[rott250]

No mention of the 60,000 people that would be on this eath right now if it weren't for this man! He was a flat out murderer and was murdered can you say karma!!

[marketwatch101]

But the killing of about one abortionist per decade leads liberals to condemn the entire pro-life movement as "domestic terrorists." At least liberals have finally found some terrorists they'd like to send to Guantanamo.

[LiberalshateAmerica]

"Abortion care"? WTF does that mean? She helped kill the babies and she sheds a tear for this asshat who killed 60,000 babies? Fuk her and fuk him!

[BriantheCarson]

Women dont need abortions, they need support to continue with pregnancies, why submit to abortion and feel the need to have an empty womb, hero my arse, child murderer and shame on the wife for who spends the money made from child murders

[brfts2001]

the right-wingers are the ones that are loony. they can't stand the fact that their dying off like a fart in the wind lol.

[flyboymd82]

LOL!! May I suggest you take a look at recent polls?

68% of Americans polled disagree with Obama's handleing of GM & Chrysler.

62% of Americans who voted for Obama now regret it & would not vote for him again.

88% of Americans want illegals immigration to STOP! Obama plans to grant them amnesty.

Can't wait until next years elections when Conservatives sweep Congress! LOL!

Take a look at whats happening to Englands Labor party(For the uninformed & ignorant, they're Englands liberals)

[ariaane]

Yep- and being a black immigrant to the UK msyelf, I will be casting my vote to make sure the Labour Party are removed!

People aren't buying their sh*t anymore.

[ariaane]

Sweetheart, we aren't dying out.

We have children, unlike liberals who like to stick knives into the heads of babies in the name of "choice".

[langleywallingford]

yuo donte have to die out. just keep yuor nose out of other poeples hoohahs! bizzybodys who have to make other poeples persnal and private rights be olny what the bizybody thinks, should be comitted to assylums. yuo sound like a crazy!

[ariaane]

And unfortuanately for BABY KILLERS like yourself, a BABY'S BODY belongs to his or herself- and not any man or woman's.

Stop stripping the most inoncent of their rights and the world will leave women to do what they want with their bodies.

[datzfast]

dont worry honey obama will let you do abortions in the west wing of the white house.

[ilililhy]

as a correctional officer who worked in a deathroll prison, all i can say to all the abortion DR killers is ,everytime you kill one of these guys your making more job security for staff and officers at a time the economy is falling apart.and tax payers are spending more money housing you guys.

[flyboymd82]

ilililhy,

Hmm, you are a corrections(not "correctional")Officer & call it "deathroll"(its deathrow!) & say its a "deathrow prison"? No prison houses only deathrow inmates. Some prisons have a deathrow wing but the entire prison isn't "deathroll". LOL!

Me thinks your full of it!

[ilililhy]

heheheh thank you for all your spelling corrections . State of Missouri dept of Corrections. mineral point .potosi 64 deathrow inmates give or take a few 600or more total inmates .max security. nickname( gates of hell )this prison is also called a racest prison ,because you will not find one black correctional officer working there. FACT, only white country boys

[ilililhy]

spelling correction  RACIST heheheheheh

[kentuckyboychris]

evil killing evil

[flyboymd82]

Whats the problem? Just another WAAAY late term abortion!

I cannot believe sick pieces of shit like this lady calls him a "hero"!

Yeah, what a great guy, Performs abortions on 10 year old girls & protects the scumbags who raped them!

People are possesed by the devil!

[mehatesuall]

Flyboy, you need to stop letting Bill O'Reilly think for you and do your own research and think for yourself.

[flyboymd82]

mehates,

Thank you very much you arrogant narcissistic piece of shit, but I think for myself. I don't watch Orielly. I don't like Orielly.

Get off your high horse you liberal jerk. I knew Abortion was murder when I was in gradeschool.

Your problem is you THINK you can think, yet you can only regurgitate the trash shoved into your ears by your leftists masters. I can hear your chains rattleing.

[mehatesuall]

I am not a narcissist or a liberal. No gradeschool child fully understands the issue so don't pride yourself in that. If you think a child can fully understand the issue, you can't understand it either. You're problems are that you are too judgemental, you generlaize, and your arrogance.

[flyboymd82]

Your last sentence is hilarious comming from you & after the 2nd & 3rd sentences of your boring comment. Talk about hypocrisy!

At least this "gradeschool child" can spell! "generlaize"?? LOL!

Pathetic!

[mehatesuall]

You are attacking my spelling/grammar because you have nothing else. Or maybe it is just easier for you. I can spell pretty well when it matters so your pathetic attempt to use that against me is just pathetic. Why am I a hypocrite? Because I made a typo? Does that contradict anything I have said to you?

[SNUFFsurgeryNEWS]

She is also a late term abortionist.

[eyelessblonde]

PRAISE BE TO JESUS, HALLELUJAH! WE NEED TO EXERCIIIIZE THE DEEMONS.  Hahahaha. F'ing moron!

[handcuffs1221]

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." (Jeremiah 1:4-5)

"So then, each of us shall give an account of himself to God." (Romans 14:12)

"As for for God, his way is perfect, HIS WORD IS PROVEN..." (Samuel 22:31)

----

The commentary in this video profoundly distorts the truth. The vast majority of his abortions were elective. We all know, deep down, that it's morally wrong.

[pegelatrin]

Selfish evil pro life fuckers.. if you dont like abortion.. DONT GET A FUCKING ABORTION!!!! WOMEN NEED THE SERVICES OF MEN LIKE TILLER:!!!!

[alpha56667]

pro life = evil??? oxy-MORON

[hellofaname]

pro life= anti-woman

[ariaane]

pro life = pro women + pro baby + anti child murder

pro abortion= pro baby killing

[BriantheCarson]

I agree

[hellofaname]

pro life= pro fundie + anti women's rights + pro doctor killer

a women's body is her own fucking business.

[ariaane]

Pro abrotion = WHITE RACISTS who at one time claimed blacks weren't humans = FASCISTS.

Pro life = pro women + pro babies.

A babie's body is his or her own fucking business. Kill yourself if you wish to- don't kill someone else.

[ariaane]

Yes, if people don't like slavery, then don't own a slave. Just don't take away other white people's right to own a black slave.

That's how IGNORANT your statement is.

Go to hell, you stupid hypocrite.

If you'd have existed during the time of slavery, you'd probably be one of these fascists who'd be in support of slavery and calling it a "right".

[langleywallingford]

they aint pro-life at all. they are really anti-choice. fact is that pro-choice poeple are actuly more pro-life by there defense of humane an inteligint attatudes about repraduction. we are not dogs, cats or steerage.

[ariaane]

Yes, they are anti choice on KILLING inoncent BABIES.

Are you pro choice on slavery? If no, are you then anti choice because you believe in the right of people to be treated in a dignified manner?

If so, you are fascist, but then again we've already gathered that due to your baby killing desires.